Proper Horse Stance ?

[wetwonder]

Hi, I recently started practicing and am uncertain about the proper way to do a horse stance. For reference, the horse stance used in the first two forms of Hung Gar.

In watching folks do it at the school, there is a good variation of how low they get. Some, who have been practicing for a few years, don't do much more than slightly bent knees. I've seen one person who almost gets his thighs parallel to the floor.

I'm not questioning their work ethics, ability, etc, but rather am trying to get an idea of where I should be striving to be.

I've asked my Sifu, but he sort of shrugs off the question. I suppose that in the traditional model of teaching, there is a "need to know" approach from the SIFU. I think he just wants me to work on my strength now, and then later improve the stance. I think this is it, but I'm not sure. I don't want to question him. My attitude is that I'm in his hands, just as I bet he was in his Sifu's hands in the old country.

It may be that in every school, there are folks that try to perfect, and there are folks that don't strive that way. I don't know, but I'm just asking if there is a model way to do the stance. My inclination is that the horse stance in these forms should be deep.

If you could, take a look at the following clip. The monk in gray, who I presume is the Master, does what it appears to me to be the "perfect" stance. Thighs are parallel to the ground, back side is even lower and back is straight. But for comparison, the two gentlemen in the yellow robes who come into the clip after the first minute have some angle between thigh and ground. The taller one has the most angle.

So are these all correct? Maybe. But is the Master's perfect - what I should picture in my mind to be striving for when doing the form work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKa53AJslkg

Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

the teacher is shi deyang a renowned shaolin.

the horse is: thighs parallel, shins perpendicular, toes forwards with a slight outwardness being acceptable.

if you are not strong enough to do this, then gradually work at it until you are able to meet the requirements.

[wetwonder]

That would be shins perpendicular when viewing him from 12 and 6 oclock, but then angled foward from heel to knee when viewing him from 3 and 9 oclock, right?

[David Jamieson]

you don't want the knee to go over the toe. a slight angle when viewed side on is not too bad, but, shins straight up and down at 90 degrees is preferential

once you take the knee over the toe, you stress tendons and ligaments and risk damaging them.

when first beginning, slightly rocking back on the heels and tucking the tail bone is used to prevent this from happening in the case of the big square horse as shown in the clip.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One man's horse is another man's donkey.

[David Jamieson]

lol.

horse is varied in martial arts.

the way it is used in practical application is nothing like the way it is trained.
horse stance, or horse riding stance is much higher and way more mobile when actually in use, but it is trained at the extreme range of motion.

it's like bouncing a basketball and then switching to a ping pong ball.

or it's like bench pressing 200 pounds to get strong for lifting 150.

and so on.

[AJM]

lol.

horse is varied in martial arts.

the way it is used in practical application is nothing like the way it is trained.
horse stance, or horse riding stance is much higher and way more mobile when actually in use, but it is trained at the extreme range of motion.

it's like bouncing a basketball and then switching to a ping pong ball.

or it's like bench pressing 200 pounds to get strong for lifting 150.

and so on.
Very good post. Although my evolution after thirty nine years of practice is to lower stances during fighting. Age has given me less weight and muscle so I need leverage and every advantage I can use.

[wetwonder]

So putting application aside for the moment - one should strive for the deep, thighs parallel to the ground stance, for purposes of doing the open hand forms. Is that right? I specify the first few forms only b/c that's where I am so far.

[David Jamieson]

So putting application aside for the moment - one should strive for the deep, thighs parallel to the ground stance, for purposes of doing the open hand forms. Is that right? I specify the first few forms only b/c that's where I am so far.

yes, in forms practice, the shape will be trained at the far end of the range of motion to facilitate speed and mobility in the applied version.

form is the early portion of training that can be used as reference for the rest of your life. You'll pull them apart eventually, extrapolate their content, drill it solo, drill it with resistance (bag work) drill it sparring and maybe even compete with what you take away.

of course, there are some styles that forgo this method and get right to the meat and potatoes, and that's fine.

there's a lot of roads leading to rome. :)

[bakxierboxer]

you don't want the knee to go over the toe. a slight angle when viewed side on is not too bad, but, shins straight up and down at 90 degrees is preferential

If your shins are perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight, it is impossible to do a decent ma bu.
Your "behind" will be 'way behind your feet, necessitating a forward torso inclination to achieve balance.
In this position, a true/effortless (power developing) rotation into any other stance
cannot be done.

[David Jamieson]

If your shins are perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight, it is impossible to do a decent ma bu.
Your "behind" will be 'way behind your feet, necessitating a forward torso inclination to achieve balance.
In this position, a true/effortless (power developing) rotation into any other stance
cannot be done.

not strong enough yet? :)

just kidding.

but, look at this:
http://www.shaolinkungfu.nl/images/img_mabu.jpg

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/CPS1.jpg

[bawang]

If your shins are perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight, it is impossible to do a decent ma bu.
Your "behind" will be 'way behind your feet, necessitating a forward torso inclination to achieve balance.
In this position, a true/effortless (power developing) rotation into any other stance
cannot be done.


hi, if you has shins parallel, when you turn ,you turn from horse stance to climb mountain stance (on the balls of your foot) not flat footed have a try


So putting application aside for the moment - one should strive for the deep, thighs parallel to the ground stance, for purposes of doing the open hand forms. Is that right? I specify the first few forms only b/c that's where I am so far.
ya, low stance for training and performance. after a while you stand higher to practice like real fighting. for drilling like real fighting, mebbes bending 45 degrees, thats what i do. ask your sifu again some time later

im sorry to tell you but u shud focus on getting strong and trainging hard instead of thinking about form oh should i stand like this hold my hadn like this, if your sifu thinks you did something really really wrong he will correct you, he didnt answer you because its not important for you right now
whats important right now is not how you hold horse stance, its how long you hold it

when your sifu thinks you are for real and is gonna stay ask him again he will tell you. every style even school is different no one is wrong (unless you are wingchun)

[wetwonder]

You're partly right about the focus on strength in my case. But Sifu seems to be most concerned with form above the waist, often adjusting arm or hand position by a few inches here and there. He's very very precise. I suppose that makes sense, as the upper body movements don't require the same strength at this point as the lower body, so it's easier to concentrate on form there.

My question was really about "where should I strive to be" with stances down the road. I think it's an American cultural idiosynchrosy to be concerned about big picture, where we're going, and having a need to understand the theory. So I can't help it.

[tattooedmonk]

....accept one or two. first, I believe that the feet should be slightly turned in ( internally rotated) to compensate for the "naturally":rolleyes: turned out(externally rotated) feet that most people walk around with.

This will help with overall muscle length/tension relationships and joint/ force couplings, throughout the kinetic chain ( Nervous system, muscluar system and skeletal system)which in turn will correct your overall posture and will also eliminate the outside wear on the heels of your shoes, which is caused by inversion of the feet. etc etc.

Second, it would be impossible for the lower legs to be 90 degrees vertical( perpendicular to the floor) if the thighs are parralel to the floor( horzontal or level with the floor). Like another person said above, this would put your torso ( upperbody) too far back ( like you were sitting on a chair) and would cause you to not to be centered over your base of support ( lower body). Which in turn would cause you to be unstable and off balance. They should be at a 45 degree angle.

[bakxierboxer]

not strong enough yet? :)

just kidding.

but, look at this:
http://www.shaolinkungfu.nl/images/img_mabu.jpg

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/CPS1.jpg

Neither one of them has both shins perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight.

[bawang]

*head explode
does it matter lol

[diego]

if you can do standing splits shaolin style does it matter?.

[punchdrunk]

I suggest you go to your Sifu or Sihings for advice on the proper horse, it can vary a lot from school to school. For instance look at wushu form competitors, very different stances from any Hung Gar I've ever seen. Advice on the forum can help but remember they aren't your Sifu, good luck and enjoy your training.

[bawang]

if you can do standing splits shaolin style does it matter?.
i dont think it matters. every one has their own way of doing their stuff i agree that he should ask his sifu

[wetwonder]

Everything in Hung Gar matters. I learned that much my first day.

I did ask Sifu, as explained in the post.

[tattooedmonk]

*head explode
does it matter lolYes it does!!!!

[Lee Chiang Po]

It seems to me that most styles ride too wide a horse. The feet spread is to wide, and if the stance requires developing strength to be able to do properly, then it might not be proper. The horse stance is developed to fit the practitioner. It all depends on your hip structure. You need to drop, but you need to be able to do it comfortably so that it does not tax your strength or stamina. Otherwise you will tire too quickly. You need to be able to move quickly as well, and if you are in a stance that is not comfortable or way too wide you can not move fast. Some of these extreme horse stances do look impressive, but in a knock down and drag out fight would you be able to last long? In your horse stance you should be able to run forward, backwards, sideways, just about any direction.
Your stance is where you live. Everything you do is from your stance. It is what gives you your root, your power. None of this can occur from an akward stance. You should have a training method that helps develop this. Like practicing your footwork while in your horse stance. Advancing, retreating, side stepping, turning, just about any move you would expect to make.

[Wild Monk]

The monk in the center is a good reference for a strong horse stance. Except I train with my toes forward instead an outward angle.


You should also consult with your Sifu and if he just gives you the cold shoulder, as you stated he did then find another Sifu. The days of not teaching all to your students and sharing 100% of your knowledge are far over. But that is another thread all its own.:D

[AJM]

The last two posts were exellant. I was taught toes out released good chi and toes in held bad chi in. Toes in should be for down the road when you know what to do with it.

[tattooedmonk]

"""Some horse stances use muscle, others tendon and others bone and qi. """ Please explain this answer. These are all part of the kinetic chain. They are always present and always involved.

It appears that most of you do not believe there is any specific methods and/ or measurements involved . I do not hear any scientific data being thrown around.

Experience is not a valid answer. I can guarantee that most of you have muscle imbalances , relative flexibility and postural distortion from your various practices .

I am sorry but " be cuz my master says so or becuz it is the way that it is done or taught traditionally does not fly either ".

Oh by the way , feet turned in ,bad Qi and feet turned out, good chi it is more like the other way around. Do people study or do they make this up as they go along........

[wetwonder]

I started this thread b/c I was curious as to whether there is a generally accepted view of the "proper" horse stance. In other word, an image of what a mastered horse stance would look like. It doesn't seem like there is.

[David Jamieson]

I started this thread b/c I was curious as to whether there is a generally accepted view of the "proper" horse stance. In other word, an image of what a mastered horse stance would look like. It doesn't seem like there is.

THat is correct.

there is yee gee kim yeung ma, sei ping ma, sei ping dai ma, jeung ma and several other variants of horse/horse riding stance.

[tattooedmonk]

I started this thread b/c I was curious as to whether there is a generally accepted view of the "proper" horse stance. In other word, an image of what a mastered horse stance would look like. It doesn't seem like there is.Yes, there is. It is based on your own body measurements, proper structural alignment, etc. the only difference is whether they are high ( thigh 90 vertical), middle ( thigh 45) or low (thigh 90 horizontal). Your feet should be in the same place no matter what "square" horse stance you are doing................ I would say that these are similar to the three different styles of actual horse riding (english, western and jockey)these are done with 50/50 weight distribution.............These may not be universally known but they should be. There is the correct way and then variations there of. If you do it the way you want to ( variation)and not the correct way there will be limitations, inefficiency, structural problems,etc. I can give you the proper methods , measurements etc. for any stance based on science not opinion.

[tattooedmonk]

Nobody wants scientific advice based on the facts and truth, only opinions without scientific data......... LMAO

[diego]

Nobody wants scientific advice based on the facts and truth, only opinions without scientific data......... LMAO

I would love to see your research:)

[David Jamieson]

also, anything combined with blood drinking would be of interest... :p

[wetwonder]

I was really asking about proper horse stance for doing the first 3 forms. I see a couple of folks with thighs level, yet the majority half-standing - though all Senior students. I guess it's just a matter of trying real hard to be correct, or taking shortcuts.

[bawang]

thigh level is strength training half standing is for realistic training for most styles

[David Jamieson]

I was really asking about proper horse stance for doing the first 3 forms. I see a couple of folks with thighs level, yet the majority half-standing - though all Senior students. I guess it's just a matter of trying real hard to be correct, or taking shortcuts.

there are no shortcuts. you either do the work or you don't and it shows both ways.

[TenTigers]

I have my students do low, deep horse for the first basic training sets, and then later the horse is higher. Same with the ji ng ma-bow stance. In the beginning sets, the stance is low, back leg locked. Later, the stance is narrower, rear leg not locked, sacrum tucked, chest swallowed.
It is a teaching method for developing foundational strength, and for teaching the basics. Later, the training gets more technical, more individualised, one on one.