Stance training

[SevenStar]

what is it about stance training that builds chi?

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[straight blast]

I was always taught to focus on chi while training stances. It sorta seems to divide your mind. I'm one of those people who's always thinking about 1000 things at once & I am often distracted by shiny things :) I've found that the level of concentration required to do stance work properly allows me to be sufficiently focussed to concentrate on relaxing :confused: enough to feel chi.
Plus I think that a lot of the stances are designed with the aim of maximising chi flow during combat.

"Pain is merely weakness leaving the body"

[SevenStar]

"Plus I think that a lot of the stances are designed with the aim of maximising chi flow during combat."

that's what I'm wondering...What inherent property does stance training have that develops chi?

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[honorisc]

Perhaps the shades of tension that are involved; the vibrating muscles; the pelvic/spine position that makes the breathing seem lower than some other times.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Braden]

There's nothing inherent about stance training that 'builds chi'; in fact, just standing in stances won't 'build chi' at all.

'Building chi' is a bit of an inappropriate expression, since qigong doesn't necessarily involve 'building chi', so lets just consider qigong for now.

Stance training is not by any means the only qigong. However, when using stance training as a qigong, a number of things have to be done. First, certain postural requirements must be met - in theory, these 'open up' or 'exercise' or 'loosen' or 'balance' the various energy channels and energy gates of the body. Different postures can work specifically with different channels and gates. These postural requirements are detailed in the 'classics' (manuals or poems written by the 'old masters') of the internal arts; it's not good enough simply to hold a horse stance - your whole body has to be doing a variety of things. Also, the body must be relaxing. This in itself is a 'postural requirement' but is worth individual mention. Although a variety of 'tense' practices have fallen under the name of 'hard qigong'; according to theory, chi cannot be cultivated (and the above mentioned channels and gates cannot be exercised) without extreme relaxation. The breath must also be doing specific things. There are a variety of breathing methods related to certain goals and certain levels of training. But suffice to say that the breathing should be exercising the lower dantien - which is a more significant, specific, and difficult task than just about anyone gives it credit for. Although there are a wide variety of interpretations and methods, the mind must also be doing 'something.' As a beginner, the mind must be cleared and emptied in order to find the 'true intention' (the evolution of these practices is related to the original Zen meditations). The 'true intention' is when you want to do something with no restraint but you do not consider it. It is similar to when you are completely engrossed in reading a book and there is an itch on your leg, so your hand reaches down to scratch it without your mind really noticing. Once 'true intention' has been established, it should be used with various visualizations (again, interpretations and methods vary widely here) according to the 'internal anatomy', your skill level, and your goals.

The most basic and in many ways 'best' stance for this is the wuji or 'quiet standing' posture which most people wouldn't recognize as a stance at all, as it looks very similar to normal standing. However, there are some downsides to this practice, most notably that it's incredibly boring!

A moderate horse stance is probably the most common 'basic qigong stance' beyond this. In theory, this is related to concepts of taoist internal alchemy (from which all this stuff stems) which consider the lower dantien to be analogous to a cauldron, your breath the bellows, and the 'work' your lower body does in a horse stance the 'heat' or 'fire' required.

Stances are an excellent and widely-used qigong method because often they allow the mind to relax more readily than if you are occupied with something (ie. you're moving), can be practiced easily and for a longer period of time, and are ideal for maintaining the postural requirements. However, there are many other qigongs.

[S.Teebas]

I agree with what Briaden said.

It's not a matter of building the chi, but a matter of understanding how to 'release it'. Proper structure allows you to relax and really feel it. The kind of relaxation i mean is the kind when you just lay down to go to bed...totally relaxed! But you need to have a good structure so you can relax otherwise you just holing the position with muscles (which causes blockages).

Once you can get rid of all the blockages and you have a good stance, you body becomes able to allow force to pass through it and you are not eaisly affected by external forces.

The theory is similar to those suspended metal balls,like 4 in a row, on strings. And you pull one ball back and then let it go, the force transmits through the balls in between and only moves the last ball...then the force comes back. You body is like those center balls.. just a single unit (you need linkage of the body into one piece for this) and your speed dictates how much force the opponents recieves. It's like hitting the opponent with the ground! Your body is the tool for which the force travels through.

So now you can understand (or not!) why the stance is so important. Becuase it is the source of power.

S.Teebas

[Ming the Merciless]

I don't know about building chi??? but I think it is about building a foundation. for example, A building with a weak or faulty foundation will collapse. just an analogy.

[straight blast]

Yeah. What they said. :cool:

"Pain is merely weakness leaving the body"

[omegapoint]

You Chinese stylists don't have the monopoly on Qigong. In the Okinawan Shorin style of Matsumura Orthodox, "ki" or "chi" is brought up frequently during forms training. The highest level of classical Shuri-te training involves learning the Hakutsuru or "White Crane" forms. Granted it was taught to our founder who trained in China in the early 1800's (about 15-20 years worth), but nevertheless, the value of Chigong as a tool to improve health and combat effectiveness (mentally and physically) did not go unnoticed by Sokon Matsumura.

When most Japanese, Okinawans and Korean karateka perform Kata the rigidity, tension and linear aspects of their training is very apparent. In a rare few of Ryukyuan Chinese + Ti (Okinawan fighting methods) derived styles the practice of Yin and Yang hand techniques is a prime example of this.

You see many systems perform the karate "chop" or knifehand, with a lot of Yang energy in the hands, wrist, and arm. That is a recent phenomenon. Whereas in Matsumura Seito and certain select other styles of Ryukyu Koryu ("old school fighting science"), this same strike is practiced with lots of Yin (soft) energy in the hands, Yang in the forearms (due to proper tendon and not muscle use) and a very supple (Yin) upper arm. This is the original way. This tech is strong from proper algnment of the bones and tendons. This is also part of our Qigong training.

My sensei has hands like granite when he wants, but his hands are not rough, calloused, scarred and disfigured from years of improper training. He practices kotekitae or "body-hardening", but much of this is done with internal supporting structure "exercises". Many of these principles are closely allied with yoga "science" and its concern with tendon strength and flexibility.

Tendon conditioning through the use of proper Qigong is misunderstood by many modernists. As soon as the uninitiated hear the words "ki" or "chi" they break into hysterics and visualize a Mortal combat "Fatality". There is nothing mystical about Qigong or "Chi training". It's just a different, older explanation for scientifically sound principles (at least most of them). Hearing unfamiliar terms and explanations from Gung fu guys who never bothered to check the validity of their style's claims by researching some basic modern physiological and anatomical principles, doesn't help in clearing up the mystical myths of Chi and Qigong.

Anyway at the higher levels this is where true power comes from. Not necessarily from muscle power, but proper mental and physical structure. Old masters may not have a lot of muscle strength left. They have to find ways to maximize what they got. Add this scientific training to modern aerobic and strength conditioning and "watch out now"!

An example of a very strong open hand strike that uses Yin and Yang energy is "Iron Wing Hand" or in my style He Tsuru Te or "Flying Crane Hand". Useful for executing hook-type blocks, the proper alignment of tendons and bones gives it its strength. Conversely, the fingers can be used for striking by lining up, the pinky and the first thumb joint, creating a Yang or "Hard" hand tech. Like I said these ancient principles can be backed up by modern orthopedics and biomechanical principles. There's no mysticism. The "chi" flowing through the channels or meridians of the body has nothing to do with hocus-pocus, but sound scientific principles, and maximizing the use of one's body.

I guarantee that if you understand these things and how training properly but diligently can increase your overall well-being, then you can see where the Chinese MAs and Physicians got the idea(s)for Qigong. My sensei has been doing being this stuff for so long that when he does many of his open hand techs, you can see a recognizeable difference in pallidity (whiteness) of his hands versus his arms. He interchangeably calls this "chi" or "ki". I call it enhanced bone and tendon structure, that pushes against the soft tissue of the hands and creates "blanching" (whitening) with what looks like visible lines or "channels" of Chi (redness from our "life fuel", blood) intermittently. This is not a power tech. It's a "proper structural alignment" tech. Gravity and weight distribution (sliding back foot forward, bending the knees and "sinking"), and slight torque gives it increased mass. That is why "soft" techs can be very deceptive and therefore unusually effective. There is no tension or hurrying throught the tech, just good technique.

You will NEVER see or hear these principles in about 95% of the Dojos out there. Most karate is completely based on speed, power and stiffness. Some styles claim to be "hard and soft" but there are very few that even have a concept as to what the true meaning of Yin or Ju (soft in Japanese) is (in this context). These, the most important aspects of "China Hand" were not taught to most Japanese and Korean stylists, so how could they have a clue! This is the reason for the love-hate affair many folks have with karate, even other karateka! This is the reason for the dilution of a combat proven form of fighting that had its genesis in China, and its final synthesis with Okinawan fighting traditions. When the Japanese took control of the Ryukyus it was a considerable period of time before they took credit for inventing Karate (I see people on KFO get it twisted all the time), *******izing it, and capitalizing on it.

Even some Karate pioneers like Gichin Funakoshi (Shotokan) who were Okinawan were refused complete instruction in the advanced
White Crane principles because of their questionable loyalty to their country (Okinawa) and Matsumura's ideals. You see he never wanted the Japs to learn the real deal, and they never have.

That's my reasons for practicing Qigong. I just wish all MAs new the benefits of this special training.

So from what little I understand of this way of training, not only is proper stance alignment important, but the way the body is aligned as a unit in conjunction with fighting techs, proper breathing (from the tanden) and mental fortitude, creates the goal of Qigong: the unity of mind and body. Sorry for the ****nn novel. Too much typing! I hope someone reads this!

[Ming the Merciless]

5000 paragraphs later..... It can't possibly take that long to explain what you are trying to say.........break it down for us stupid people........

[SevenStar]

I read it. Since it's so late (early actually) and I've had no sleep, I had to read it several times to get all of it and probably still got some of the words wrong, but from what I could make out, it was a good post! I'll reread it when I wake up and and able to do so! :)

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[Ming the Merciless]

This applies to any topic, not just martial arts. It should not take two pages to get your point across if you really know what you are talking about. Because if you really understand things, you can break it down any way that you care to do so.

[Kristoffer]

Omega,
Great post! very well written.

Ming,
learn how to read. :rolleyes:

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Wongsifu]

sevenstar its the focus that builds the chi, the stance is there really only to direct it to different parts of the body.

For example in emracing the tree stance / 3 circle stance the stance is made to specifically fortify the arms, and circle the energy around, also the fingers acta as antennae, having said this 100 instructors give you 100 answers for their stances.

So in fact the stance does not build the chi it moves the chi to the areas of the body that are in a specific position.


What builds chi is the focus on the dantien. This works, because our dantien is connected to a kind of "heavenly chi source" if you would like to put it, by focusing on it you open the gateway more and more and bring in the energy from the heavenly source.

Just brining this energy in is no good without knowing what to do with it so depending on what style you do has different stance training , in traditional hung gar stance training the posture has the forearms out and kind of tense so the chi comes in from the dantien and fortifies the arms in this way thus building power ....

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[HuangKaiVun]

Spoken like a MASTER, omegapoint. Couldn't/wouldn't have said it better myself.

"No dead stances", my sifu says.

[Yin Chuan]

I read gichin funikoshi's autobiography "Karate Do-My way Of Life" and I must say he was a kind,descent,gentle man who was a school teacher by trade for many years in okinawa just as jigoro kano of judo fame was.From what I read he loved his native okinawa very much and was willing to sacrifice many years away from his homeland in order to spread what he believed was something positive to the greater world around him.One quote that I do remember is "if you have a good medicine that would cure a serious illness wouldnt you want to share it with as many people as possible"He trained for many years with his first instuctor Azato at night because the japanese forbade martial arts training of any kind.He would walk long distances in the dark night after night just to train and often take severe critisism from his instructor in order to just keep training again and again.He even questioned hiself as to why he continually did this.His neighbors thuoght he was attending a brothel.He trained under Azato then another famous karateka Itosu.This went on for many years until he retired from the okinawan school system.He recounts a story of matsumura sensei where he defends hiself with simply a spirit shout.He gives a very human account of how he couldnt swim and almost drowned boarding a boat going to japan and how he worked very humbly as a gardener and had the japanese school children make fun of him and nickname him "Gourdhead"because of the shape and roundness of his head.He was a man who was able to laugh at himself.Did he know any internal aspects of his native art of Te?I dont know,Iwasnt there.I know he lived a long healthful life till the end.I do know that he trained for many,many years with some of the top people in okinawa undergoing hardships that I couldnt even begin to understand and even having these two men,(Itosu and Azato)treat his children as their own.I also know that through his book he gave me some "good Medicine" to swallow,make whole, internalize and make my own.If part of chigong(sp?)is to have something like this happen in ones life than I must say he must of known something about this aspect of the okinawan martial/healing arts. :cool:

[Water Dragon]

Stances build the proper structure to do technique. Remember when we were doing the hip toss and I was having trouble getting the lift with you. It was my stance. What I should have been doing was wrapping you up and then just dropping into the three point stance I showed you. That would have broken you and pulled you into the correct position. Same thing with the front stance and the kua. It goes back to making the desired movement automatic.

I don't think the stance holding is really that deep, it may be, I don't know. But I do know that in December I should be able to tear you off your root with my stance. It's leverage and physics.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Braden]

*boggle* I can't believe people are complaining about posts longer than three lines. God forbid people here actually have any information to convey.

[Kung Lek]

Omegapoint said "you chinese stylists don't have the monopoly on Chi" and then went on to describe Okinawan Shorin Karate. :D

Excellent, you do know where that came from don't you o-point? ... Shorin=Shaolin, okinanwan "Te" or "hand" which later became Kara-Te (open/empty hand).

I was an Isshinryu Karateka in the 70's - 80's and this was a blend of Shorin and Goju styles, both Okinanawan and both heavily flavourde with Chinese principle and technique.

Beyond that, you do make good points about the use and development of the nature and understanding of Chi and it's benifits to the martial artist.

As for Stance training, it gives the practitioner strength, root, breath, power and as well develops the breath to maintain all of the aforementioned. As well, it works the practitioners will.

With a steel will, you will be able to acomplish excellence in Kung Fu or Karate or whatever your chosen art is.

Without understanding the workings of yourself [Chi (breath), jing (essence), Yi (will), Kung (Power) and others] and only seeking to understand the techniques will indeed be a fruitless endeavour that even after long years of practice will produce little gain.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[whippinghand]

You are a master... ;)

[Watchman]

LOL @ Whipping Hand

[fa_jing]

As other posters have said, sitting in a horse stance will not automatically be the best chi-gung exercise. My personal most clear manisfestation of Chi I can best acheive sitting on the floor with my legs crossed. I am able, through concentration, to acheive a state where my dan-tien area will vibrate, it's a really unique feeling. I haven't clearly acheived the small-circle meditation, though I do try. However, I do think the horse training can help you develop your chi. For one, it causes you to relax non weight-bearing muscles and tissue. This will improve energy flow. Two, I find myself breathing in a shallow fashion often when I begin to strain in the stance. By concentrating, I am able to expand and deepen my breathing, while working specifically against this urge to tense up my chest and abdomen. Three, doing stance training is like the squat or deadlift exercise. It works the biggest, strongest muscles, which increases your vitality. You know what I mean, because you lift weights. It causes your body to strain to the utmost, giving you a feeling of power. That feeling is increased chi flow, according to my definition.
You know, feeling like you could deadlift a car, now if you focus that feeling in your fist, you could probably break a few bricks. -FJ

[fa_jing]

...

[CD Lee]

Very nice post. Pardon guys who cannot settle themselves for more than 30 seconds to read something, and read more about it's various dimentions. Some guys (Ming) need to hear the 3rd grade rendition of Qi. Ohhh, but then again, we don't talk about subjects that are muti-dimentional with 3rd graders do we now?

Lets see Ming here it is for ya:
Qi is like um, energy dude. It move around in ya when ya stand around. Very cool stuff. Oh yeah, make sure to circle it all the way around. If it gets stuck in your head, you could get a head ache