Kyokushin vs. Drunken Boxing vid

[IronFist]

I dunno if this is choreographed or not. Doesn't look like it. The only reason I'm posting it is because, if it isn't choreographed, it's the only time I've seen someone spar with drunken boxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkYF2MfHKzw&feature=related

[Hardwork108]

I dunno if this is choreographed or not. Doesn't look like it. The only reason I'm posting it is because, if it isn't choreographed, it's the only time I've seen someone spar with drunken boxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkYF2MfHKzw&feature=related

In my opinion this whole thing was staged to show Kyokushinkai Karate in good light. It is nothing but a media exhibition.

However, it ended up showing both Kyokshin and Drunken Boxing in a bad light. I say this because the karate black belt was very one dimensional and I know for a fact that there is more to this style of karate than fancy kicking. This type of kicking would get one killed against a competent kung fu fighter, in a REAL fight, that is.

On the other hand the kung fu fighter looked like he was sparring with his sister. This was at best a light sparring session rigged in favor of the karate fighter. There was no leg grabbing allowed. At 1.44 the Drunken Boxer grabs the Karate man´s leg and then lets go and apologizes. That is pretty good isn´t it? I can kick someone (whose arsenal of techniques include grabbing and grappling), all I want, knowing that he isn´t allowed to grab my leg to take me down.:rolleyes:

There were more "fights" at this event (farce!) and the videos can be found in YouTube as well.

HW8

[AJM]

Read the commentaries. smacmillon caught the correct.

[Eric Olson]

Uh...drunken boxing isn't a style in and of itself...and I think these "drunken boxers" might have learned their moves from Tekken. :rolleyes:

EO

[SimonM]

I dunno if this is choreographed or not. Doesn't look like it. The only reason I'm posting it is because, if it isn't choreographed, it's the only time I've seen someone spar with drunken boxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkYF2MfHKzw&feature=related


Is it 2004 again?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dunno if this is choreographed or not. Doesn't look like it. The only reason I'm posting it is because, if it isn't choreographed, it's the only time I've seen someone spar with drunken boxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkYF2MfHKzw&feature=related

It was a silly display on all parts.
The kyokushin guys held back as to not "hurt" their "friends" and the "drunken" boxers over did their inebriation to play up for the Cameras.
This is reminent of that horrid WC VS Kyokushin display at the world champion ships on the 70's.
To say it was a fix is, well, accusatory, nevertheless, it was a joke and made Kyokushin look as bad as WC.
No need for this silliness.

[SimonM]

That video makes the rounds every few years. We all know it. We all think it's stupid. Nuff said.

[Hardwork108]

Uh...drunken boxing isn't a style in and of itself...and I think these "drunken boxers" might have learned their moves from Tekken. :rolleyes:

EO

It is my understanding that Drunken Boxing was an individual style, at least in the old days.

[SimonM]

It is my understanding that "drunken boxing" is Chinese for "please hurt me some more". Honestly, even done correctly (it was not in that video) it comprises a fair percentage of what is wrong in CMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is my understanding that "drunken boxing" is Chinese for "please hurt me some more". Honestly, even done correctly (it was not in that video) it comprises a fair percentage of what is wrong in CMA.

Actually, drunken boxing was/can be highly effective due to its very unorthodox and "clumsy" approuch to fighting.
Ever been hit in sparring but a noobie that throws a round kick in the silliest of ways?
Supposedly Drunken Boxers can hit you and launch attacks from the most unpredictable of ways and angles.

[SimonM]

Guess I've just never seen it than. Because every person I have seen attempt drunken boxing in a fight has left themselves open for a punch or a throw without fail.

[bawang]

when drunken leaning around is called luohan dodging punch methods a lot less people make an ass out of themselves
and when drunken footwork is called dragon footwork no one looks like a moron, even though those are the same but with different names
people who do monkey style dont fling poo and scream like a monkey, people who do crane dont flap their wings and make bird noises

i blame jackie chan

[SimonM]

ROFTLMFAO.

Bawang you are awesome. :D

[bawang]

thanks
super duper awesome friend

but seriously yes the dodging and shuffling footwork is from a very old style of luohan because when i had seen a friend do a real form it was luohan with some SLIGHTLY drunken-looking movements added in between and some ditang
other style add it because it is more a concept of doging instead of blocking and fighting with no rooting

my feeling is the pais that do drunken today have not fought in their lineage for mebbes a few hundred years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5XpUPbBmBc
look at this guy bobbing his head like hes dodging punches

[Hardwork108]

It is my understanding that "drunken boxing" is Chinese for "please hurt me some more". Honestly, even done correctly (it was not in that video) it comprises a fair percentage of what is wrong in CMA.

Could it be that your Chinese language skills are even worse than your kung fu ones?

You need to have a lot of qualifications before you can make that kind of a statement and if you did, then you would not have made such a statement in the first place.

[bawang]

Could it be that your Chinese language skills are even worse than your kung fu ones?

You need to have a lot of qualifications before you can make that kind of a statement and if you did, then you would not have made such a statement in the first place.

no he is right because drunken style has been a flower style for many years, it died out even before the boxing rebellion, it wasnt an amazingly good style in the first place, but had a few interesting concepts so many style incorporated it to train in dodging punches instead of blocking ,and not relying on rooted power, most importantly to look hurt.

after a few punch you pretend youre dazed and tired, other guy drops his guard and goes for the knockout BAM surprise win but guess what? you pull that trick a couple times on the lei tai with all the other fighters watching they're not gonna fall for it again

[Hardwork108]

no he is right because drunken style has been a flower style for many years, it died out even before the boxing rebellion

Some people may argue the same about some of the other styles today but that does not mean that they were "hurt me" styles to start with.

[Kansuke]

Could it be that your Chinese language skills are even worse than your kung fu ones?


How are your Chinese language skills?

[Hardwork108]

How are your Chinese language skills?

Well I know enough Chinese to know that "Drunken Boxing" is not Chinese for "Hurt me some more".

Talking of "Drunken", why don´t you be a good boy and run along and sober up before you post here again.:rolleyes:

[bawang]

Some people may argue the same about some of the other styles today but that does not mean that they were "hurt me" styles to start with.

well it is now
you can fight better with falun gong than learning drunken style

[Hardwork108]

well it is now
you can fight better with falun gong than learning drunken style

Well, I´ll take your word for it. :D

[Kansuke]

Well I know enough Chinese to know that "Drunken Boxing" is not Chinese for "Hurt me some more".

Yeah, that doesn't really answer my question.


Talking of "Drunken", why don´t you be a good boy and run along and sober up before you post here again.:rolleyes:

Well that's not a very nice thing to say. Why the attitude?

[Hardwork108]

Yeah, that doesn't really answer my question.

It should.




Well that's not a very nice thing to say. Why the attitude?

I just don´t like drunks, junkies or people who ACT like drunks and drug addicts.

You really should try and contribute to the threads instead of trying to derail them Kansuke or shall say UNKOKUSAI!

[Kansuke]

Why do you seem so determined to turn this into a big flame-war? Is that what you came here for?

[golden arhat]

It should.





I just don´t like drunks, junkies or people who ACT like drunks and drug addicts.

You really should try and contribute to the threads instead of trying to derail them Kansuke or shall say UNKOKUSAI!

why cant you just die

no one values anything you say

ever

[SimonM]

Hardwork108, ni congzhu wode zhongguohua keyi inwei wode laopo shi zhongguoren suoyi wo ting bu dong putonghua, wo ting bu dong wode laopo.

It would appear that your grasp of sarcasm is as tenuous as your grasp of reality.

[Lucas]

anytime ive ever seen any drunken boxing where the person has a decent martial head on their bodies, it always reminds me of chen taiji.

[Kansuke]

Hardwork108, ni congzhu wode zhongguohua keyi inwei wode laopo shi zhongguoren suoyi wo ting bu dong putonghua, wo ting bu dong wode laopo.



Maybe it's for the best that you don't understand her! :D

[SimonM]

ROTFLMFAO

I DID say keyi, not hen hao. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe it's for the best that you don't understand her! :D

Her ???:confused:

[bawang]

Her ???:confused:

i think he said he and his chinese wife make a sexy time

[Hardwork108]

why cant you just die

I am impressed with how knuckleheads come to each other´s aid when one of them puts his foot in it.



no one values anything you say
ever

You will once you decide to learn real kungfu. ;)

[Kansuke]

Why would you say that? Are you trying to insult him, or to denigrate a certain type of people?

[taai gihk yahn]

but seriously yes the dodging and shuffling footwork is from a very old style of luohan because when i had seen a friend do a real form it was luohan with some SLIGHTLY drunken-looking movements added in between and some ditang
other style add it because it is more a concept of doging instead of blocking and fighting with no rooting

my feeling is the pais that do drunken today have not fought in their lineage for mebbes a few hundred years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5XpUPbBmBc
look at this guy bobbing his head like hes dodging punches

my understanding is that the root of "drunken" is from Taoist shamanic practice, in terms of the trance-like altered states of consciousness that the shamans would enter into in order to - well, do whatever it is shamans do, i guess - Cloud Script "automatic" writing being one; anyway, the incoherent staggering around punctuated by moments of lucidity (when they might make some prophecy or whatnot) is the common theme here;

example of Taoist cloud script

[taai gihk yahn]

Could it be that your Chinese language skills are even worse than your kung fu ones?

Talking of "Drunken", why don´t you be a good boy and run along and sober up before you post here again.:rolleyes:

I am impressed with how knuckleheads come to each other´s aid when one of them puts his foot in it.

You will once you decide to learn real kungfu. ;)

A general public service announcement: please be kind to HW108; he really just can't help himself; if he can't understand that his baiting, sarcastic and derisive posting style is the reason that the vast majority of people with whom he interacts on this forum express negative sentiment towards him, then I think that we ought to show him some charity and just accept that his misanthropic ways will ultimately lead him back down the path to being banned (hopefully, next time, for good);

see, it really doesn't even matter the content at this point; the more he keeps agitating, the more that the flame wars will pile up, and the mods, simply out of exasperation, will get rid of him; win/win (well, maybe not for him, but anyway)

our mantra: "it's only a matter of time..."

[Hardwork108]

A general public service announcement: please be kind to HW108; he really just can't help himself; if he can't understand that his baiting, sarcastic and derisive posting style is the reason that the vast majority of people with whom he interacts on this forum express negative sentiment towards him, then I think that we ought to show him some charity and just accept that his misanthropic ways will ultimately lead him back down the path to being banned (hopefully, next time, for good);

You will also see that the vast majority who express negative sentiment towards me have been MMA-ists and crosstrainers or masters of McDonalds kung fu.


see, it really doesn't even matter the content at this point;

The content matters but you will only understand it when your kung fu knowledge is up to par. Give it a few more years.:D


the more he keeps agitating, the more that the flame wars will pile up, and the mods, simply out of exasperation, will get rid of him; win/win (well, maybe not for him, but anyway)

It is amazing how you don´t see the "agitating" that is coming from your old forum friend kansuke aka unkokusai. You have always had a blind spot regarding his behavior here. I suppose it is the good old "selective morality syndrom", a condition that is suffered by so many knuckleheads.

Talking of morality, isn´t it interesting how you changed your forum name when I exposed your lies upon my person.

So, relax and stop trying to take the moral high ground, it doesn´t suit you and try to stick to the thread subject instead of badmouthing me.


our mantra: "it's only a matter of time..."

Try this mantra: "I will practice real kung fu before I make comments in these forums".

By the way, how old are you? I mean really.

[taai gihk yahn]

Talking of morality, isn´t it interesting how you changed your forum name when I exposed your lies upon my person.
isn't it interesting though, how you were the one who got banned?

isn't it even more interesting that within only a few days of your return, you have managed to generate the same degree of rancor from pretty much everyone on the board?

isn't it really interesting that you have reverted to your previous use of derogatory posting despite having been warned not to do so?

(and BTW, the name change had nothing to do with you or any of our exchanges, despite what your distorted ego may want you to think; Gene even posted something about my reason for it, I'm sure you can go dig it up, what with your web-fu skills par excellence)

[Hardwork108]

isn't it interesting though, how you were the one who got banned?

Of course I got banned. I shook the monkey cage with my authentic non "MMA is King" approach and all the little monkeys all ganged up on me. And I admit that I over reacted.


isn't it even more interesting that within only a few days of your return, you have managed to generate the same degree of rancor from pretty much everyone on the board?

False statement! You are trying to stir up sh¡t as always and just like your friend Kansuke/Unkokusai.


isn't it really interesting that you have reverted to your previous use of derogatory posting despite having been warned not to do so?

Maybe I should dig up some of your derogatory posts when you were posting as "cjurakpt"? Or maybe I won´t.


(and BTW, the name change had nothing to do with you or any of our exchanges, despite what your distorted ego may want you to think; Gene even posted something about my reason for it, I'm sure you can go dig it up, what with your web-fu skills par excellence)

I don´t have to dig it up. You had an identity theft issue and you were worried that the person who bothered to steal your details would use your forum ID to post something here in the forum that would actually make some sense for once. :eek:;)

[Mr Punch]

I seem to remember seeing that demo on TV over here.

I'm not commenting on how good the drunken boxers here were, but it was obviously a piece of entertainment and heavily biased in favour of the kyokushin.

There are a lot of this kind of show on on late night TV over here, often promoting JMA over CMA or any other... it's a staple. The simplest way of doing it is not explain the rules and to have the favoured style going hard, which is what seemed to be happening here.

There are countless examples from the Rikidozan days and Ali vs Inoki.

My ex koryu teacher was filmed for a show that filmed a load of people to see who hit hardest. He hit hardest (he was representing Xing Yi not koryu). His segment was completely cut.

My TKD champion friend (American but teaching and training over here) was given a match that he was told was a stand-up demo and semi-contact, with no kicks to the head, and when he got in the ring it was suddenly full-contact anything goes (striking, kicking anywhere and throws).

My American pro MMA friend (trained here since 17, fluent in Japanese, culturally aware and well-respected by the home audience) has related a similar story, apart from the fact that even after becoming the Pacific Rim Shooto Champion he and remained with a very good record he was never given a shot at the Japanese title.

Before Kansuke calls me out for racism, I'm just going to qualify that the fight business over here is as dominated with shady semi- and full-fledged gangsters as the boxing business always was (is?) in the UK. Among these types the ultra-right are rife, hence the patriotism and match-fixing charges. It's not a reflection on the Japanese people as a whole. Also, of course, it's prevalent in CMA too, with last minute rule changes in san shou bouts etc. I don't know the extent of this kind of thing in the west, but it probably went on there too. OK, now you call me a racist, Kansuke! :D

Back to the vid. The DBs are obviously pulling everything, although of course, if they don't practice FC they won't necessarily have the ability to turn it on. As someone pointed out, the no grabbing/grappling is obviously against them, and may well have not been mentioned in the rules until that point. The kyokushin guys are obviously going FC. The second DB guy, I think, does OK under the circs: his riding the kicks seems pretty good, and he has at least one good chance for a takedown and another sweep.

[Mr Punch]

Oh, and welcome back, Hardwork. May I be the first to say good bye, and I wish you all the best for your future away from the internet and other things you don't understand.

:D

[Hardwork108]

I seem to remember seeing that demo on TV over here.

I'm not commenting on how good the drunken boxers here were, but it was obviously a piece of entertainment and heavily biased in favour of the kyokushin.

There are a lot of this kind of show on on late night TV over here, often promoting JMA over CMA or any other... it's a staple. The simplest way of doing it is not explain the rules and to have the favoured style going hard, which is what seemed to be happening here.

There are countless examples from the Rikidozan days and Ali vs Inoki.

My ex koryu teacher was filmed for a show that filmed a load of people to see who hit hardest. He hit hardest (he was representing Xing Yi not koryu). His segment was completely cut.

My TKD champion friend (American but teaching and training over here) was given a match that he was told was a stand-up demo and semi-contact, with no kicks to the head, and when he got in the ring it was suddenly full-contact anything goes (striking, kicking anywhere and throws).

My American pro MMA friend (trained here since 17, fluent in Japanese, culturally aware and well-respected by the home audience) has related a similar story, apart from the fact that even after becoming the Pacific Rim Shooto Champion he and remained with a very good record he was never given a shot at the Japanese title.

Before Kansuke calls me out for racism, I'm just going to qualify that the fight business over here is as dominated with shady semi- and full-fledged gangsters as the boxing business always was (is?) in the UK. Among these types the ultra-right are rife, hence the patriotism and match-fixing charges. It's not a reflection on the Japanese people as a whole. Also, of course, it's prevalent in CMA too, with last minute rule changes in san shou bouts etc. I don't know the extent of this kind of thing in the west, but it probably went on there too. OK, now you call me a racist, Kansuke! :D

Back to the vid. The DBs are obviously pulling everything, although of course, if they don't practice FC they won't necessarily have the ability to turn it on. As someone pointed out, the no grabbing/grappling is obviously against them, and may well have not been mentioned in the rules until that point. The kyokushin guys are obviously going FC. The second DB guy, I think, does OK under the circs: his riding the kicks seems pretty good, and he has at least one good chance for a takedown and another sweep.

You are talking about the full video clip here.. I seem to remember that one of the kung fu guys did ok, but he didn´t look like a Drunken specialist. His fight was stopped after a short time. I will try to find that clip and post it.

I wonder if one of the Drunken Boxers had "accidentally" knocked down one of the kyokushin fighters, if the video clip would ever see the light of day.

[Hardwork108]

Oh, and welcome back, Hardwork. May I be the first to say good bye, and I wish you all the best for your future away from the internet and other things you don't understand.

:D

Hey don´t be like that.:eek:

I "like" you. By the way, when is your next trip to London?

[Hardwork108]

Here is the other link which includes the second kung fu fighter that enters the "game" at 3.00.
His fight was cut short. Was he doing too well for comfort?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4JiNrU7jEk&feature=related

[golden arhat]

You will also see that the vast majority who express negative sentiment towards me have been MMA-ists and crosstrainers or masters of McDonalds kung fu.





why is being a mma'is t a bad thing and suddenly make whatever i post less credible

on average who?....
who trains more realistically ?

the mma'ist

who trains harder ?

the mma'ist

who tests there skills against real opponents?

the mma'ist


i'd say if anything being a mixed martial artist gives me far more credibility to take apart your derisive arguments ratehr than less(not that i have to)



just for the record aswell i dont write off cma at all, its riddled with sham teachers ineffective training methods and pretentious gimmicks of techniques but there are definitley some diamonds in the dust

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ignore is your friend, and NOT quoting would be great too * Hint*

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kyokushin has always liked to point out that they are the "strongest" Karate, simple from the view point of full contact sparring.
Fact is, and I say this with a semi-heavy heart, the many off shots such as Kudo, Budokai, Ashihara, Shidokan, Enshin and some of the "new" IKO's have kept the "vision" alive far better than the "official" IKO.
These little videos and others, showing the "superiority" of Kyokushin show nothing of the sort.
Certainly Kyokushin takes hardcore training to a high level, and is a great core base for adding other systems if one is so inclined.
Nevertheless, most kyokushin is "muay thai with a gi and no head punches" and that is simple wrong.
Kyokushin SHOULD be a complete system, the "Supreme Ultimate Truth" of the MA is, simply that, EACH INDIVIDUAL is responsible for their MA, not some organization or some "brand name".
My Kyokushin may not be yours and his may not be hers, but that is a GOOD thing, IF the core principles are still there.
It falls on the individual to make their system what it needs to be.

[TenTigers]

that was a complete and total farce. Perhaps when I was 16 and first starting out, I may have thought it was real Kung-Fu .
It is obvious that the "drunken Boxers" were beginners in a made-up crap style, and they fought against your basic KK guys. Watch the relaxed demeanorof th KK guys.Easy pickings.
The KK guys were playing, and the Drunken Boxers thought they knew MA.
Just like the no touch knockout master vs the other guy.Ridiculous.

[SimonM]

i think he said he and his chinese wife make a sexy time

And here I thought I said that if I couldn't speak any putonghua I couldn't understand her when she spoke it. :p

[bawang]

Kyokushin has always liked to point out that they are the "strongest" Karate, simple from the view point of full contact sparring.
Fact is, and I say this with a semi-heavy heart, the many off shots such as Kudo, Budokai, Ashihara, Shidokan, Enshin and some of the "new" IKO's have kept the "vision" alive far better than the "official" IKO.
These little videos and others, showing the "superiority" of Kyokushin show nothing of the sort.
Certainly Kyokushin takes hardcore training to a high level, and is a great core base for adding other systems if one is so inclined.
Nevertheless, most kyokushin is "muay thai with a gi and no head punches" and that is simple wrong.
Kyokushin SHOULD be a complete system, the "Supreme Ultimate Truth" of the MA is, simply that, EACH INDIVIDUAL is responsible for their MA, not some organization or some "brand name".
My Kyokushin may not be yours and his may not be hers, but that is a GOOD thing, IF the core principles are still there.
It falls on the individual to make their system what it needs to be.

i think good karate can fight good but i dont like them because theyre racist. they put on traditional japanese costume and change chinese name of forms into japanese names
that show was obviously fixed they invited some nobodys to get pounded for entertainment, when the snake style guy was actually fighting decently they stopped the fight really quick

[Kansuke]

Who do you mean by "they?"

[bawang]

Who do you mean by "they?"

traditional japanese karate sensei who are racist to chinese peopls

[Kansuke]

traditional japanese karate sensei who are racist to chinese peopls



Are you saying all traditional Japanese Karate sensei are racist?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you saying all traditional Japanese Karate sensei are racist?

Of course, why do you think they were white ??:D

[bawang]

Are you saying all traditional Japanese Karate sensei are racist?

no im not saying that
but it is possible i am saying go fornicate with your mother

i agree with mr punch about faovring their own side ,every body does that no body want their own people to lose
but i think this is most extreme between japan and china ever since relations went to hell after world war 2. the political relation applies to matial arts relations too, since people connect martial arts with patriotism
like mr punch said tv shows like this are pretty common, but china does the same thing. i dont think a kyokushin guy has won in a big san shou fight ever in china tv. last time a amature kyokushin guy was to fight a sanda guy in china they sent in a special forces commando rofl

[sanjuro_ronin]

no im not saying that
but it is possible i am saying go fuk your mother

i agree with mr punch about faovring their own side , but every body does that no body want their own people to lose
but i think this is most extreme between japan and china ever since relations went to hell after world war 2. almost every koyukoshin guy in vs sanda matches has lost and vice versa, people just dont want to lose face
the political relation applies to matial arts relations too, since people connect martial arts with patriotism, many karate people didnt want to admit for many years their stuff is southern kung fu and many shuai jiao people still doesnt admit they have some stuff from judo

Favoritisim, Nationalisim and Racisim are not the same thing.

[bawang]

Favoritisim, Nationalisim and Racisim are not the same thing.
in the case of asia some time they are one and the same, and theyre almost always related to each other
some years ago many chinese people viewed japanese as another separate race, now with globalization and modernization china is more open and we find more common ground, and martial arts relationships also improve, people willing to train in foreign styles

[Lucas]

bawang, you are a funny guy.

[SimonM]

Bawang IS a funny guy.

And Kansuke: trust me on this, when it comes to Sino-Japanese relations just back away slowly and don't make any sudden gestures and you'll probably be ok. ;)

[bawang]

simon is right, whenever someone rubs my balls the wrong way on this topic i start hearing wong fei hong theme song in my head lol

good thing though is with modern mma tv shows like this are a joke when before dumb people might have taken it seriously
i think bullshido people still uses it as "evidence"

[Kansuke]

And Kansuke: trust me on this, when it comes to Sino-Japanese relations just back away slowly and don't make any sudden gestures and you'll probably be ok. ;)




Feh, nothing to be gained by ignoring it.

[Hardwork108]

that show was obviously fixed they invited some nobodys to get pounded for entertainment, when the snake style guy was actually fighting decently they stopped the fight really quick


I noticed the quick end too. That was a snake stylist?

[Hardwork108]

Ignore is your friend, and NOT quoting would be great too * Hint*

I got your hint and that is why I am ignoring your friend kansuke.;)

[Hardwork108]

Kyokushin SHOULD be a complete system, the "Supreme Ultimate Truth" of the MA.

That was certainly its original design. If the powers that be had stuck to that design then even I may have been tempted to take up this art.;)

Unfortunately what has happened to Kyokushin has been happening to many kung fu styles for many years and decades, hence the need for many kung fu-ists, often quite rightly (but not always) to look elsewhere to complete their arsenal.

[golden arhat]

simon is right, whenever someone rubs my balls the wrong way on this topic i start hearing wong fei hong theme song in my head

AHAHAHAAHHA AMAZING MENTAL IMAGE



i'm thinking a flashback with you at the keyboard of the beach scene from wong fei hung 1 (once upon a time in china)


you area funny guy

[Hardwork108]

why is being a mma'is t a bad thing and suddenly make whatever i post less credible

If you have to ask such a question in a kung fu forum then I am afraid that no answer that I can give will enlighten you. Just keep on practicing the stuff that make you happy. At the end of the day that is what it is all about.



who trains more realistically ?

the mma'ist

who trains harder ?

the mma'ist

who tests there skills against real opponents?

the mma'ist

Who shouldn´t be posting in a kung fu forum?

AN MMA-IST! :D



i'd say if anything being a mixed martial artist gives me far more credibility to take apart your derisive arguments ratehr than less(not that i have to)

To post in a kung fu forum you would have far more credibility if you were an AUTHENTIC kung fu practitioner.;)



..... but there are definitley some diamonds in the dust

Well thank you old boy, I didn´t think that you had it in you. :)

[golden arhat]

i have a background in cma


i am a mixed martial artist yes

kung fu is a MARTIAL art

and one that i like to mix in with my training, in fact i take alot of influence from arts like xingyiquan in principle and practise

[SimonM]

LOL! What is it with CMA interested syncretists and Xingyi?

Kansuke: There is two centuries of bad blood between the Chinese and the Japanese peoples. A lot of Chinese people refuse to let old grievances drop, and a lot of Japanese people don't like to admit that anyone in Japan ever did anything wrong. The good news is that Japan and China are separated by a large body of water and have significant economic interests in common and so we have them both playing mostly nicely and just demonizing each other on TV. For an example of a simmilar situation but playing out on a small landmass and without the common economic interests take a look at the Sinhalese and the Tamils and just think: sixty years ago it was worse than that.

And then consider this: lots of people in both countries remember sixty years ago.

The fact that sino-japanese relations are as good as they are now is a testament to the good of the human spirit. But it's still a very sore wound that both nations tend to scratch at.

Hucking around racism accusations at either side (considering that both sides go at it) really doesn't do anything to help. Encouraging cultural exchange and increased understanding on the other hand is a GOOD thing. ;)

[Kansuke]

Kansuke: There is two centuries of bad blood between the Chinese and the Japanese peoples.


Whoa, really? Thanks for the heads up.

[Ronin22]

That was certainly its original design. If the powers that be had stuck to that design then even I may have been tempted to take up this art.;)

Unfortunately what has happened to Kyokushin has been happening to many kung fu styles for many years and decades, hence the need for many kung fu-ists, often quite rightly (but not always) to look elsewhere to complete their arsenal.


Hardwork

Royama Shihans organization (Kyokushin-Kan) has pretty much vowed to bring back the original vision of Sosai Oyama including allowing punches/kicks to the face during tournaments and sparring

Check it out if you like

http://www.budokaratehouse.com/honbu/honbuhome4.htm

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork

Royama Shihans organization (Kyokushin-Kan) has pretty much vowed to bring back the original vision of Sosai Oyama including allowing punches/kicks to the face during tournaments and sparring

Check it out if you like

http://www.budokaratehouse.com/honbu/honbuhome4.htm

Thank you for the link Ronin. It is very interesting. I hope more TJMA and indeed TCMA masters (real ones) follow Royama´s example and go back to teaching/practicing their arts the way they were meant to be, i.e. holistically and with combat functionality in mind.

Thanks again. :)

[Hardwork108]

i have a background in cma
I wish had a dime for every time a MMAist told me that he had a "background in cma".


i am a mixed martial artist yes
I think that all of us have gathered that already.


kung fu is a MARTIAL art

I gather that you know that fact because of your "background in cma".


and one that i like to mix in with my training, in fact i take alot of influence from arts like xingyiquan in principle and practise

I wish I had a dime for every time an MMA ist told me that he takes a lot of "influence" from kung fu in his MMA training.

The short of the story is that either you practice authentic kung fu or you don´t!

To understand any authentic kung fu style will take you years of practice in an AUTHENTIC school!

How many authentic kung fu schools do you know in Manchester or indeed the UK? I mean authentic and not schools with good track records in kickboxing matches!

So before you insult a kung fu practitioner in a KUNG FU forum you need to first look at your own kung fu (not MMA nor kickboxing) prowess and having a kung fu "background" or kung fu "influences" does not cut it!

[SimonM]

The fundamental tradition of Gong Fu was synthesis and transformation. The preponderance of styles of Wu Gong was largely because the prevailing notion until recently was that there were as many styles of wu gong as there were fighters.

Conservatives (not politically but martially) who feel that they will lose some imagined purity if they allow any foreign styles into their "kung fu" are sort of missing the point.

[Hardwork108]

The fundamental tradition of Gong Fu was synthesis and transformation. The preponderance of styles of Wu Gong was largely because the prevailing notion until recently was that there were as many styles of wu gong as there were fighters.

Conservatives (not politically but martially) who feel that they will lose some imagined purity if they allow any foreign styles into their "kung fu" are sort of missing the point.

Kung fu has always evolved through improvements and adoption of techniques from other styles. Nothing new there.

However, in the old days these improvements were carried out by REAL kung fu masters (who had dedicated their lives to one or more styles of TCMA) and not by wannabe knuckleheads who had at some point in their lives dabbled in kung fu together with god knows how many irrelevant (to kung fu)martial arts.

You will also find that any new improvements were adapted to fit the individual theories and principles of a given style. For example, you cannot use the typical karate or Muay Thai round (house) kick in Wing Chun as it goes against the center line theory of this style.

However, in Siu Lam wing chun we do have a round or turning kick that falls within the principles of this art. No doubt that this technique was adopted from more mainstream shaolin kung fu styles but as it stands now, it is a WC technique.

Those missing the point are the people who may hop around like a boxer (without kung fu roots) using chain punches (a la Wing Chun) and round kicks (a la karate) and still think that what they are doing is an "improved" or "evolved" form of kung fu!

[Lucas]

at this point my formal training is in cma. it makes up my foundation, my walls, and my roof of my house. i have a few windows and doors that are not from cma however.

[AJM]

Understood that.

[golden arhat]

I wish had a dime for every time a MMAist told me that he had a "background in cma".


I think that all of us have gathered that already.



I gather that you know that fact because of your "background in cma".



I wish I had a dime for every time an MMA ist told me that he takes a lot of "influence" from kung fu in his MMA training.

The short of the story is that either you practice authentic kung fu or you don´t!

To understand any authentic kung fu style will take you years of practice in an AUTHENTIC school!

How many authentic kung fu schools do you know in Manchester or indeed the UK? I mean authentic and not schools with good track records in kickboxing matches!

So before you insult a kung fu practitioner in a KUNG FU forum you need to first look at your own kung fu (not MMA nor kickboxing) prowess and having a kung fu "background" or kung fu "influences" does not cut it!



you know so very little

just to humour you i did hung gar for 3 years before i started MMA i know two hung gar schools
one 7 star mantis school (who's master i beat)
and i know 3 wing chun schools the people who attend and the people who teach.

and i can trace their lineages back so shut up i've been doing MA all my life thats my backgound.

you assume that i dont know anythign based on what amounts to f@ck all

i'd beat your ass
i'd beat your teachers ass
i'd beat your entire school down

because my training is f@cking superior to anything you have ever done
MA is my life
i do it every day 7 days a week
and i've been doing various different martial arts since i was about 6


so go and take your "purity" and your "authenticity" and shove it up your candy ass cos who your teacher was and what your lineage was or whoever from your style did what however many hundreds of years ago apparently means exactly JACK SH!T when i'm choking you out


now go away, like i said no one and i mean NO ONE here values anything you say

so just wander off and practise your little forms while the great one speaks.

[mawali]

Kyokushin wins hands down!
Hard training and conditioning always wins over drunken dancing!

[friday]

so Hardwork108 - do you train in a realistic manner?
If so what do you do in your training?
Do you spar full contact against other MAs?
just curious...

[taai gihk yahn]

However, in the old days these improvements were carried out by REAL kung fu masters (who had dedicated their lives to one or more styles of TCMA)
that's because in general, all they had available were TCMA's, so of course whatever they "added on" more readily worked in context of the principles of what they already knew;


and not by wannabe knuckleheads who had at some point in their lives dabbled in kung fu together with god knows how many irrelevant (to kung fu)martial arts.
what you qualify as irrelevant is highly subjective; for example, what would you consider Lion's Roar, which was originally a Tibetan MA? totally different set of principles than Chinese systems, about as "irrelevant" to CMA as an art could be; yet it was successfully integrated into the corpus of TCMA both as independent styles (Lama, White Crane, Hop Ga) or as adopted techniques within other styles (Hung Ga, CLF);

so let's get this straight; according to your perspective:

1) an "authentic" kung fu system contains all the training, techniques, internals etc. that one would ever need in order to be successful as a fighter in any context (standing, ground, weapons, etc.);

2) if one studies a kung fu system yet still feels the need to go outside and learn something "irrelevant" (which, according to your definition, means an art that doesn't match the principles of TCMA) then either it's not an "authentic" system or, if it is, they either a) didn't train long enough; b) hard enough; c) are having things held back; apparently, there are no exceptions to this "rule" of yours (e.g. - that one could have deeply studied an "authentic" system and still felt that there was something lacking in their training)

3) assuming that one stays with it for the appropriate amount of time, trains with due diligence, and does not have anything "held" back by their teacher, anyone who has studied an "authentic" TCMA system in its totality without any outside influence will inherently have an advantage over someone who has gone the MMA approach

4) since you study a TCMA system that is "complete" in your own estimation, and you train hard, and you are not having info held back, you feel that you are in a prime position to assess the relative authenticity of anyone else's TCMA training based on these criteria; as such, anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours regarding the above is de facto not training in an "authentic" system, or if they are, is not getting the real deal for some reason, because if they were, they wouldn't think those sorts of thoughts;

does that sound about right?

[Kansuke]

This 'hardwork' character seems like nothing but trouble. There really doesn't seem to be any benefit to having him here at all.

[Exadon]

This 'hardwork' character seems like nothing but trouble. There really doesn't seem to be any benefit to having him here at all.

One important life lesson I am learning from Kung-Fu is to be humble. I just started my training a month ago...and I believed to myself that I had mastered every technique a white belt could learn before yellow belt.

Last night Lu Mei (wu-shu champion from china) filled in for a black sash who normally teaches our class. Not only did I learn how sloppy my white sash form was, but I learned how off balance my horse stances were (by almost falling to the ground when Lu Mei came over and kicked my fore leg and back leg)

I guess the point of my story is...I learned a lot on last nights lessons. Including that no one person is at a perfection state of being. This is why we must train as often as possible to always better our selfs.

To have a “master” such as 'hardwork' so bodly state his great achiecments gains very little respect from me. When the instructor from china (Lu Mei) came into class... she never told anyone that she was a wushu champion from china, she never told us about all the awards she won...how many people she “beat”. Humble...powerful...and she has my full respect.

Hardwork...if you are as great as you say you are...it is a shame that other parts of Martial Arts have not stuck with you.


And I agree, there is no benefit to having him here at all

[CFT]

However, in the old days these improvements were carried out by REAL kung fu masters (who had dedicated their lives to one or more styles of TCMA) and not by wannabe knuckleheads who had at some point in their lives dabbled in kung fu together with god knows how many irrelevant (to kung fu)martial arts.My emphasis ... Hardwork back to his old behaviour. So much for his promises to the Moderator(s).

[lkfmdc]

This 'hardwork' character seems like nothing but trouble. There really doesn't seem to be any benefit to having him here at all.




And I agree, there is no benefit to having him here at all


Hardwork back to his old behaviour. So much for his promises to the Moderator(s).

He was banned already once before, now he's back at the same old same old. I know this place is light on moderation, but it's a bore to have lame trolls constantly cluttering up the place....

[Lucas]

I learned a lot on last nights lessons. Including that no one person is at a perfection state of being. This is why we must train as often as possible to always better our selfs.



you're fortunate to have picked that up in your first month of training. you will recall those thoughts many times in the future. there is never an end, there is always more.

[Hardwork108]

you know so very little

just to humour you

I think that you have "humoured" enough already.



i did hung gar for 3 years before i started MMA i know two hung gar schools
one 7 star mantis school (who's master i beat)
and i know 3 wing chun schools the people who attend and the people who teach.

and i can trace their lineages back so shut up i've been doing MA all my life thats my backgound.

Yet you didn´t deem your "kung fu" experience important enough to list in your profile while posting in a KUNG FU FORUM, for gods sake !!!

Doesn´t seem that you learnt enough kung fu to respect it as a martial art!


you assume that i dont know anythign based on what amounts to f@ck all

I didn´t say that you don´t know anything. I believe that you lack an understanding of authentic kung fu, based on your own posts and of course your own profile.


i'd beat your ass
i'd beat your teachers ass
i'd beat your entire school down

I hope that our humble friend Exadon is reading this.


because my training is f@cking superior to anything you have ever done
MA is my life
i do it every day 7 days a week
and i've been doing various different martial arts since i was about 6

You are missing the point. You may be a good martial artist and even a good fighter but that does not mean that you know your kung fu. Once you make that distinction then you may not get so hot under the colar.



so go and take your "purity" and your "authenticity" and shove it up your candy ass cos who your teacher was and what your lineage was or whoever from your style did what however many hundreds of years ago apparently means exactly JACK SH!T when i'm choking you out

There again, you are showing your affinity to BJJ/wrestling rather than a typical kung fu. Do you see where I am coming from now?



now go away, like i said no one and i mean NO ONE here values anything you say

No one who practices glorified kickboxing or MMA will ever "value" what I say and that makes me very happy.:)


so just wander off and practise your little forms while the great one speaks.

The great kung fu champion of Manchester does not believe in the benefit of kung fu forms practice! Your kung fu experience sounds even more "genuine" after your last remark.

[Hardwork108]

so Hardwork108 - do you train in a realistic manner?
If so what do you do in your training?
Do you spar full contact against other MAs?
just curious...

I do spar full contact but I am still trying to figure out how to beat the Wing Chuners first before I go elsewhere. :eek::D

[Hardwork108]

To have a “master” such as 'hardwork' so bodly state his great achiecments gains very little respect from me.

You misunderstand! Where have I talked about my "mastery" or "great achievements"?

It is only a question of approach to kung fu training. The authentic vs the so called modern (where where people who have hardly come to understand what kung fu training is all about, have mixed up their training with other MAs which often contain contradicting principles to kung fu).


When the instructor from china (Lu Mei) came into class... she never told anyone that she was a wushu champion from china, she never told us about all the awards she won...how many people she “beat”. Humble...powerful...and she has my full respect.

And neither have I!


Hardwork...if you are as great as you say you are...

Again, I have not claimed to be "great". All I have put forward is my perspective in training authentic kung fu. This perspective has never gone down well with the people who follow the "crosstraining is king" approach. This leads to them badmouthing me quite often by using lies. Then they keep repeating these lies leading to people like you falling for these untruths. And that is what has happened here!



it is a shame that other parts of Martial Arts have not stuck with you.

But they have.



And I agree, there is no benefit to having him here at all

The person, "Kansuke" with whom you have so willingly agreed, is one of the biggest trolls in this forum. He does not practice kung fu!!! He is a wrestler!!! His main purpose here is to harrass and stir you know what as well as put down kung fu! You can check out his posts under his former forum ID (before he was banned!) which is Unkokusai!!!

Do you see any of the "kung fu" (what a laugh) brothers mention this fact or complain about him here? No you don´t and that is because they identify with the likes of him more than they do with people who practice authentic kung fu!!! In short they are wrotten apples from the same "kung fu basket"!!!

I may have a sharp tongue at occasions and may even go too far with it sometimes but try and see the contents of my posts.

Don`t fall for what these types say as they have a history of often ganging up on the traditionalists such as myself and use lies to discredit them. Don´t fall for their game.

[Lucas]

dont generalize too far, many people just ignore trolls.

[Exadon]

You misunderstand! QUOTE]

You are correct , I did misunderstand. It seems I hit my page down button too fast. I had thought you were the one who said
[quote]i'd beat your ass
i'd beat your teachers ass
i'd beat your entire school down
Anyway my goal was not to get in the middle of the fight, but to point out that it is better to be humble. Actions speak louder then words.

I do owe you a sorry Hardwork. What ever beef you had with other members is before my time. I thought you had said something you did not.
So I am sorry about that.

[golden arhat]

ok so when i first came to this board i waas out and out CMA and i was here well before you hw108 so as for establishing my credentials as a cma'ist before my mma i have already done that,


my previous post was a bit stupid in some ways you just find a way of annoying me so much, its untrue.


CMA is not 1 martial art. if i did hung gar and then i did wing chun that would classify me as a MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST so your deeming of mma as worthless and unnecessary in compariosn with the clorious chinese martial arts system is just absurd

at the end of the day my training will more than likely help me more than yours will

i've tested it against opponents in class and on the street and its worked
i've tested it against propenents of other arts and done well


the fact is that the only "complete" (and whatever that entails) system is one that takes influence from more than one source.

which makes my training more rounded and complete than yours because you simply brush off what i'ev acomplished as lesser because its not as "pure" or "authentic" as yours

my martial skill is applicable but by no means the be all and end all of martial arts
yours is even less by virtue of thae fact that you only have one solid influence and that is your one incomplete system


end.

[Kansuke]

This 'hardwork' character seems determined to flame and derail and fill the forum with his oddly defensive agenda.

Where is any benefit in that?

[Lucas]

lol.

you all crack me up.

hey at least we all have one thing in common. we all die in the end!!






except me of course, im immortal

[Mr Punch]

You are talking about the full video clip here...
I wonder if one of the Drunken Boxers had "accidentally" knocked down one of the kyokushin fighters, if the video clip would ever see the light of day.Actually, no, I'm misremembering: it was the sweep at 19 secs that looked like it would have done the job... but as I said, there were a few occasions where, timing-wise and whatever it looked like a few of those flurries of punches could have been good, but as they don't practice full-contact with people used to different levels and different styles they'll never be effective... sound familiar?


I "like" you. By the way, when is your next trip to London?I love you, mate. It's just for the sake of the world I don't think the world is ready for our test-tube offspring yet. Sides, like all purists, it wouldn't work: I'm MMA, your TCMA, but our child would be MMA. I'm not going to be back home for another two years or so. If I wind up in Colombia, I'll let you know. :D



traditional japanese karate sensei who are racist to chinese peoplsAs far as analyses go, this one doesn't. You're forgetting that most karate styles were started by Okinawans who also weren't big lovers of the Japanese and had no problem with Chinese influences. Oh, and that karate gi were just the clothes that normal working geezers wore, not some disguise to 'de-Chinesify' their MA.

See Simon, misconceptions can be righted in seconds: backing off from them is NEVER the way forward (er, quite literally! :D ).


This 'hardwork' character seems like nothing but trouble. There really doesn't seem to be any benefit to having him here at all.

Dunno... sometimes he answers what has been asked without getting hyper-defensive. I know he's had problems with Chris in the past, but I'm really interested to hear his answers to Chris here, and Friday.


so Hardwork108 - do you train in a realistic manner?
If so what do you do in your training?
Do you spar full contact against other MAs?
just curious...


that's because in general, all they had available were TCMA's, so of course whatever they "added on" more readily worked in context of the principles of what they already knew...

what you qualify as irrelevant is highly subjective; for example, what would you consider Lion's Roar, which was originally a Tibetan MA? totally different set of principles than Chinese systems, about as "irrelevant" to CMA as an art could be; yet it was successfully integrated into the corpus of TCMA both as independent styles (Lama, White Crane, Hop Ga) or as adopted techniques within other styles (Hung Ga, CLF);

so let's get this straight; according to your perspective:

1) an "authentic" kung fu system contains all the training, techniques, internals etc. that one would ever need in order to be successful as a fighter in any context (standing, ground, weapons, etc.);

2) if one studies a kung fu system yet still feels the need to go outside and learn something "irrelevant" (which, according to your definition, means an art that doesn't match the principles of TCMA) then either it's not an "authentic" system or, if it is, they either a) didn't train long enough; b) hard enough; c) are having things held back; apparently, there are no exceptions to this "rule" of yours (e.g. - that one could have deeply studied an "authentic" system and still felt that there was something lacking in their training)

3) assuming that one stays with it for the appropriate amount of time, trains with due diligence, and does not have anything "held" back by their teacher, anyone who has studied an "authentic" TCMA system in its totality without any outside influence will inherently have an advantage over someone who has gone the MMA approach

4) since you study a TCMA system that is "complete" in your own estimation, and you train hard, and you are not having info held back, you feel that you are in a prime position to assess the relative authenticity of anyone else's TCMA training based on these criteria; as such, anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours regarding the above is de facto not training in an "authentic" system, or if they are, is not getting the real deal for some reason, because if they were, they wouldn't think those sorts of thoughts;

does that sound about right?


I do spar full contact but I am still trying to figure out how to beat the Wing Chuners first before I go elsewhere. :eek::DGo elsewhere! Then you'll figure out how to beat wing chun! :p It's just like Catch 22, complete with the insanity clause... :eek:




at this point my formal training is in cma. it makes up my foundation, my walls, and my roof of my house. i have a few windows and doors that are not from cma however.W... T... H...? :D What about your curtains, mate? Chintz? Silk? Cotton? Your back door? I heard it's always open... How about your locks... and throws? :p

[Mr Punch]

1) an "authentic" kung fu system contains all the training, techniques, internals etc. that one would ever need in order to be successful as a fighter in any context (standing, ground, weapons, etc.)Actually, extending this logic just a little, and not too fantastically, I think, this means that:

1) ALL kung fu styles are complete?

2) IF one isn't, it's perfectly OK to supplement it with a KF style with a completely different basis... i.e. IF I found my wing chun to be lacking in circular striking I could study CLF and get them from there... or Chen Tai Chi... or mix Taoist and Shaolin arts at will...?

[friday]

I love kung fu. But i also understand the sometimes huge limitations that come with it.
Hardwork - give me your thoughts on these issues I've noticed:

1. Guesswork - I have had people tell me they have been taught a form and thought it was perfectly fine to spend the majority of the time 'guessing' how to apply techniques within the form.

My take: If I am a sifu's student I want to learn how to apply it. I'm not a dancer. I expect when I ask how to use techniques in forms - to have them broken down and explained.

2. Kung fu is not about fighting or not just about fighting

My Take: sure. maybe its not ALL about fighting and for many there will be a spiritual, fitness/health, etcetc aspect to why they choose to practise kung fu or other martial arts. But inherent within the concept of kung fu is its ability to fight/defend/etc. Missing this element it is only a dance.

3. It will take years to master a kung fu style

My Take: This at times is probably partly a result a from the method of transmission from sifu to student. if a sifu wants to and is willing to - this process can be sped up quite a bit by being open about the style, its method, its techniques, strategy, etc.

4. Some kung fu styles do not permit/allow sparring as part of their program

My Take: how will you be able to apply techniques against resisting opponents if all you ever do are two man drills and forms? Are we deluding students into thinking that if they train in this manner hard they will be able to defend themselves against the average boxer? MT guy? BJJ? etc? The reality is alot of people practise martial arts nowadays...maybe we have to change the way we teach our material in kung fu to adapt.

as I have touched on before if you want to prove or to know 100% that your kung fu works - you need to:

1. have a sifu or dare I say it sifus??? (in which case you are usually labelled a disloyal dog!!! ;) that is open about what he/she knows.
2. you have sparring/sport competition aspects to your training.
3. you spar/fight people from other styles, martial arts.
4. you train hard.
5. and ignore the self proclaimed traditionalists who usually know less about tradition then you do! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hardwork

Royama Shihans organization (Kyokushin-Kan) has pretty much vowed to bring back the original vision of Sosai Oyama including allowing punches/kicks to the face during tournaments and sparring

Check it out if you like

http://www.budokaratehouse.com/honbu/honbuhome4.htm

Royama Shihan always wanted to maintain the "old" kyokushin, but politics being politics and special intetestes being just that, he got "shouted down.
Soeno of the Shidokan did it his way, as did the Daidiojuku ( Kudo) people,
Royama is just the "latest".
And not the last.

[lkfmdc]

except me of course, im immortal

You are only immortal until I cut your head off with my dahn dou, then I acquire all your power

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE

:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are only immortal until I cut your head off with my dahn dou, then I acquire all your power

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE

:mad:

Or 2 or 3 or 35...

[Lucas]

W... T... H...? :D What about your curtains, mate? Chintz? Silk? Cotton? Your back door? I heard it's always open... How about your locks... and throws? :p

:eek:

exit only buddy, deadbolt secured, and if you try to come in ill throw your arse out! ;)

[Lucas]

Or 2 or 3 or 35...

hes just addicted to the quickening :D

[Hardwork108]

dont generalize too far, many people just ignore trolls.

I did not mean you. I meant other "modernist"/"crosstraining" posters here who were too ready to jump in and call me a troll (among other things) when I had "dared" to post on aspects of traditional kung fu training (and remember that this is a kung fu forum and not an MMA or BJJ one)of training such as the internals and the forms training, and yet had ignored their own trolling and those of Kansuke (formerlly Unkokusai) who was dishing out insults left, right and center.

When in the past I had referred to their own collective "moral amnesia" regarding their own trolling and that of Unkokusai/Kansuke (who is actually a wrestler), I have been met with silence and a couple of times I have been attacked by these people who then claimed that Kansuke had had made some informative posts on the subject of wrestling (presumable when he had taken off some time from insulting other kung fu posters and newbies).

In conclusion. A lot of the "kung fu gods" here in the forum are nothing but cross training MMA-ists who gang up (and do their best to discredit me) or anyone who presents the authentic and traditional approach to kung fu training and is NOT apologetic about it!

[Shaolinlueb]

Uh...drunken boxing isn't a style in and of itself...and I think these "drunken boxers" might have learned their moves from Tekken. :rolleyes:

EO

hahaha

/thread. this thread shouldn't have gone beyond this post.

[Kansuke]

This 'hardwork' character doesn't seem to find this forum a very positive experience. I wonder why he bothers coming here then? Surely it would make sense to find somewhere else he would be more content rather than just raking mud and instigating trouble here.

Very unfortunate behavior indeed...

[Hardwork108]

I love kung fu. But i also understand the sometimes huge limitations that come with it.

I love kung fu too and and individual styles have limitations just like everything else in life. No one is denying that. It is just many people exagerrate the limitations because of lack of serious knowledge or even ignorance which may or may not be their own fault but that of their instructors.


1. Guesswork - I have had people tell me they have been taught a form and thought it was perfectly fine to spend the majority of the time 'guessing' how to apply techniques within the form.

My take: If I am a sifu's student I want to learn how to apply it. I'm not a dancer. I expect when I ask how to use techniques in forms - to have them broken down and explained.

I don´t agree with the "guesswork" instruction. However I do agree with sifus who will make sure that ones performance of the form is up to par before explaining the applications and once in a while it does not hurt if the sifu lets the student think about an application before he goes on to teach it. That is how I was trained.

Of course there are advanced applications to some forms and hence a good sifu will wait for the student to have mastered the basic applications before teaching and training the more advanced ones.

The problem arises when the student thinks that he knows the form enough to be taught an application to a given technique and when the sifu refuses he then runs along and joins a unctional" kickboxing school.:D

Look at Exadon´s case. He thought that his form was great until he was shown otherwise. Once he improves his form to a certain level then he will be better able to understand and perform a given application.



2. Kung fu is not about fighting or not just about fighting

My Take: sure. maybe its not ALL about fighting and for many there will be a spiritual, fitness/health, etcetc aspect to why they choose to practise kung fu or other martial arts. But inherent within the concept of kung fu is its ability to fight/defend/etc. Missing this element it is only a dance.

Agreed!

Kung fu IS primarily about fighting on one level and about health, fitness and spiritualism on another level. Generally speaking the fighting aspects should be taught first.


3. It will take years to master a kung fu style

My Take: This at times is probably partly a result a from the method of transmission from sifu to student. if a sifu wants to and is willing to - this process can be sped up quite a bit by being open about the style, its method, its techniques, strategy, etc.

Yes it will take years to master a kung fu style. That does not say that you won´t be able to fight before you reach mastery. However, there are aspects of kung fu that will take years to master and perfect. The stance work and internals/softness/relaxation in application etc. are by design difficult things to master. That is why many people don´t and half train their kung fu and then compensate any shortcomings (wether real or imagenary) by cross training.



4. Some kung fu styles do not permit/allow sparring as part of their program

Others do. Sparring and even ground fighting is a part of the WC school curriculum to which I belong. The ground fighting is not bjj nor wrestling it is WING CHUN and it is based on WC principles using WC striking and Chin-na.

I have come across one kung fu school that did not have sparring. However, the mindset of that school was that each technique was basically a finisher. The targets were not the usual "sparring" ones.

I saw stuff there that I had never seen before and will never see again. The advanced students and of course the sifu had bodies that were rock hard. Their hands were extremely "heavy" and yet relaxed and the strikes easily penetrated what I thought to be my hard abdomen. And guess what? No pressups,sit ups nor any type of weight training.

Moral of the story? There are a lot of surprises in kung fu, REAL kung fu that is.


By the way, most of the training was two man and believe it or not they had some guys in the school that had good real (street) fight records.


as I have touched on before if you want to prove or to know 100% that your kung fu works - you need to:

1. have a sifu or dare I say it sifus??? (in which case you are usually labelled a disloyal dog!!! ;) that is open about what he/she knows.
2. you have sparring/sport competition aspects to your training.
3. you spar/fight people from other styles, martial arts.
4. you train hard.
5. and ignore the self proclaimed traditionalists who usually know less about tradition then you do! :)

In a real and authentic kung fu school you will get a sifu that will teach you what you deserve. That is based on your character and dedication. There are other authentic sifus who will hold back, but then that subject belongs to another thread.

I don´t agree with sports competitions but realistic sparring a useful tool in kung fu training.

Of course one must train hard (hardwork:D)

As far as fighting other styles is concerned I will only say that once you have expert knowledge in your own style of kung fu then it is up to you how to test it.

Lastly, make sure that your sifu is the real deal and not a "self proclaimed traditionalist".;)

[Hardwork108]

You are correct , I did misunderstand. It seems I hit my page down button too fast. I had thought you were the one who said....

Anyway my goal was not to get in the middle of the fight, but to point out that it is better to be humble. Actions speak louder then words.

I do owe you a sorry Hardwork. What ever beef you had with other members is before my time. I thought you had said something you did not.
So I am sorry about that.

That is ok. Misunderstandings happen in forums. I think that the flow of negative comments from the trolls contributed to your mistake.

By the way, if you check out Ikfmdc´s and Kansuke´s contribution to the actual subject matter of this thread and you will come up with a big ZERO!

Take care. :)

[Hardwork108]

ok so when i first came to this board i waas out and out CMA and i was here well before you hw108 so as for establishing my credentials as a cma'ist before my mma i have already done that,

There are a lot of people here that claim to be CMA. One just has to look at their "interesting" comments to see the level of their kung fu accomplishment.

Next you will tell me that the Forum`s grand masters of "Ping Pong" kung fu have awarded you a TCMA master´s "credentials". :rolleyes:


my previous post was a bit stupid in some ways you just find a way of annoying me so much, its untrue.

I don´t recall insulting you or purposedly annoying you before your first abusive post addressed to me.


CMA is not 1 martial art. if i did hung gar and then i did wing chun that would classify me as a MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST
But as you know, we are not talking about that. A single style of kung fu such as WC can also be classified as a "mixed martial art" as it contains influences from the Crane, Snake and in some cases even Tiger and Dragon. All these aspects are gathered and are designed to work with WC´s principles and concepts. That is what makes WC what it is.

When we talk about MMA, we tend to talk about it in the modern context which is generall a mix of Muay Thai/kickboxing/Kyokushin mixed with Bjj or another form of wrestling, trained in a ring fighting/mat environment.



so your deeming of mma as worthless and unnecessary in compariosn with the clorious chinese martial arts system is just absurd

I never said that. I deem as worthless the fact that some MMA-ists put down the "glorious chinese maritial arts", and in a kung fu forum at that!

However, practicing MMA as one´s chosen option is not absurd. And as I said in an earlier post addressed to you, if you are happy with what you practise then that is what it is all about.


at the end of the day my training will more than likely help me more than yours will

Now, who is putting down who???


i've tested it against opponents in class and on the street and its worked
i've tested it against propenents of other arts and done well

And you assume that authentic kung fu practitioners cannot make their kung fu work in the above scenarios?



the fact is that the only "complete" (and whatever that entails) system is one that takes influence from more than one source.

See my earlier comment on kung fu where I used the example of Wing Chun in this same post!


which makes my training more rounded and complete than yours

You wouldn´t have said that if you had a better understanding of kung fu "design".


because you simply brush off what i'ev acomplished as lesser because its not as "pure" or "authentic" as yours

That is because your training is not pure or authentic as mine! Furthermore, I would not classify your current training as kung fu (I mean you don´t classify it as such in your profile, so why should I?).

Having said that, I do not classify your acomplishment as lesser! Furthermore, I don´t even say that you are a bad fighter or that I am better. I have no way of knowing and even that is pointless.

What I am saying is that I have accomplished more than you in kung fu where you have accomplished more than me in MMA.

I hope that makes my point more understandable and less "annoying" to you.


my martial skill is applicable but by no means the be all and end all of martial arts
Well at least we have one thing in common.


yours is even less by virtue of thae fact that you only have one solid influence and that is your one incomplete system

I have news for you. Wing Chun is not as "incomplete" as some MMA-ists such as yourself think.

Your WC info is based of the type of Wing Chun taught in most WC franchises, but then we are talking about commercialism. That is why I keep using the words AUTHENTIC and REAL when talking about kung fu.;)

[bawang]

there is a saying
"authentic style not neccesarily good or useful"
back in the old time it is normal for top fighter to learn many many many styles

[Kansuke]

So, this 'hardwork' character seems to have nothing to say other than to tell everyone else that they don't understand the real kungfu and that he does.

Will he just keep repeating a variation of this one message over and over forever? Not very productive or helpful...

[Hardwork108]

that's because in general, all they had available were TCMA's, so of course whatever they "added on" more readily worked in context of the principles of what they already knew;

False assumption!

Wrestling arts were around in China way before kung fu!

Don´t you think that they had "street" fighters in the old days?

Don´t you think that there were people who threw "western" type hooks in fights? Maybe even people who used the simpler boxing type fist techniques in confrontations?

Are you assuming that everyone used kung fu techniques in old China?


what you qualify as irrelevant is highly subjective; for example, what would you consider Lion's Roar, which was originally a Tibetan MA? totally different set of principles than Chinese systems, about as "irrelevant" to CMA as an art could be; yet it was successfully integrated into the corpus of TCMA both as independent styles (Lama, White Crane, Hop Ga) or as adopted techniques within other styles (Hung Ga, CLF);

The keywords there are "successfully" and "Integrated". The next question would be by whom? I will assume the answer would be Kung fu Masters! Not people who had happened to train Wing Chun or Hungar for a couple of years with god knows who, before having discovered their calling as Muay Thai or Bjj preachers.


so let's get this straight; according to your perspective:

1) an "authentic" kung fu system contains all the training, techniques, internals etc. that one would ever need in order to be successful as a fighter in any context (standing, ground, weapons, etc.);

Yes! but that does not mean that you are going to get such training from your Mcdonald kung fu academy. There is no question in my mind that TCMA contain all the above answers and that many of the individual styles, when trained correctly will holistically cover the scenarios you have mentioned (in various degrees).

There is also no question in my mind that you would be extremely lucky to find an authentic sifu who will willingly teach you the art(s) the way they were meant to be taught and practiced!


if one studies a kung fu system yet still feels the need to go outside and learn something "irrelevant" (which, according to your definition, means an art that doesn't match the principles of TCMA) then either it's not an "authentic" system or, if it is, they either a) didn't train long enough; b) hard enough;

You are having difficulty in understanding a simple approach. The fact is people can train and crosstrain all they want but they cannot identify their system as kung fu if they mix it with irrelevant arts with clashing principles. They can call it Chris´s fighting system, for example but they cannot classify it as KUNG FU!


are having things held back;

Having things held back is a real phenomenom in real kung fu schools as opposed to schools where the sifu "holds back" because he doesn´t know in the first place!


apparently, there are no exceptions to this "rule" of yours (e.g. - that one could have deeply studied an "authentic" system and still felt that there was something lacking in their training)

One can train an authentic kung fu system with a real sifu and deeply. Once he masters his art then he can go and study whatever he wants and the reason will not necessarily be because of some supposed shortcoming in his core art. It may just be because the exponent in question wishes to further enhance his martial knowledge or is just curious.

How many real masters of kung fu do you know in this forum who have first mastered ONE kung fu style before going to practice TKD or Muay Thai?

If you know any, then tell me wether they see themselves as MMAists or Kung fu masters?

In the old days many masters would go on to study other (higher) forms of kung fu to enhance their knowledge.


assuming that one stays with it for the appropriate amount of time, trains with due diligence, and does not have anything "held" back by their teacher, anyone who has studied an "authentic" TCMA system in its totality without any outside influence will inherently have an advantage over someone who has gone the MMA approach

That is a silly question. All I can say is that given the above scenario, don´t be surprised if the Kung Fu exponent wins.:D


since you study a TCMA system that is "complete" in your own estimation,

"Complete" here means that the techniques and the principles cover the ranges of combat holistically. Meaning that it does not have a zillion techniques for a zillion scenarios.


and you train hard, and you are not having info held back,
Not as hard as I would like.


you feel that you are in a prime position to assess the relative authenticity of anyone else's TCMA training based on these criteria;

I "assess the relative authenticity" of most people´s TCMA training here by merely looking at their profile. There are some people here that do not even list a given style of kung fu as something they practice.

Others list one or two styles of kung fu together with a half a dozen to dozen other martial arts. You may or may not know that to really understand kung fu to an advanced level and I am not even talking about a master`s level, then one needs years of practice in a given style. So when I see a list of often irrelevant (to kung fu) styles, then I draw my own conclusions!

In other times I will read their "enlightening" comments about "chi f@rts" and the "uselessness" of kung fu forms or Iron Palm, etc.


as such, anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours regarding the above is de facto not training in an "authentic" system, or if they are, is not getting the real deal for some reason, because if they were, they wouldn't think those sorts of thoughts;



does that sound about right?

That is about as wrong as you can get!

The fact is that there are certain facts that are constant in most (if not all traditonal)kung fu styles. They include differing degrees of emphasis (depending) towards the internals; Iron Palm/bofy/fist training, depending on styles/school. Also, forms training.

When people with relatively short training histories (in kung fu terms) but expertise in perhaps kickboxing, start demeaning the above traditional approach then that also rings alarm bells in my head.

[Hardwork108]

there is a saying
"authentic style not neccesarily good or useful"
back in the old time it is normal for top fighter to learn many many many styles

Agreed. See my post addressed to taai gik yahn.

[bawang]

i think you ned to let this drop and calm down and not insult people back
when people insult me i dont reply i just laugh it off , if it was in real life someone say stuff i would stop buy with a couple of guys make a friendly visit to their family and have a chat with mother and sister, but this is the interenet, chill out dont take everything so seriously
if you have learned anything from kung fu have some honor and be polite to people and give some respect

i would love to hear what stuff u learn from traditional weng chun but so far i only read poosy mouth fighting with kansuke, be a man and delete your spam posts plz

[Lucas]

if it was in real life someone say stuff i would cut off their meatballs

now THATS gongfu!

[Kansuke]

if it was in real life someone say stuff i would stop buy with a couple of guys make a friendly visit to their family and have a chat with mother and sister


That's awfully friendly of you! Is it better to bring red wine or white to such a visit?




And please note, no fighting from me. I'm just trying to figure out why he bothers to bother everyone.

[Hardwork108]

i think you ned to let this drop and calm down and not insult people back
when people insult me i dont reply i just laugh it off , if it was in real life someone say stuff i would stop buy with a couple of guys make a friendly visit to their family and have a chat with mother and sister, but this is the interenet, chill out dont take everything so seriously
if you have learned anything from kung fu have some honor and be polite to people and give some respect

i would love to hear what stuff u learn from traditional weng chun but so far i only read poosy mouth fighting with kansuke, be a man and delete your spam posts plz

Bawang, I have not addressed a post to Kansuke in a very long time and I am ignoring him.:)

[Lucas]

hes just a bit suseptable to the bait you like to string. ;)

[Lucas]

we are all buddies now.

move along, nothing to see here.

lets go karaoke!@

[Hardwork108]

we are all buddies now.

move along, nothing to see here.

lets go karaoke!@

You know what Lucas, there are enough people here crosstraining in irrelevant arts and they don´t need the art of karaoke to occupy their fragile attention spans.;)

Besides, if some of these MMA guys sing the same way they post "info" about kung fu then they are going to be too deadly for even the best kung fu masters to deal with.:D

[Hardwork108]

hes just a bit suseptable to the bait you like to string. ;)

That is ok Lucas. I have been ignoring Kansuke for a while now and I am sure that other people reading his posts have realized that he is nothing but a troll and his may purpose here is to stir sh¡t as he is continually showing his real "face" to the other posters.

Having said that it is worth pointing out that he does have knucklehead "kung fu":rolleyes:, friends here who nurture and "feed" him as if he was their love child.

[Hardwork108]

Actually, no, I'm misremembering: it was the sweep at 19 secs that looked like it would have done the job... but as I said, there were a few occasions where, timing-wise and whatever it looked like a few of those flurries of punches could have been good, but as they don't practice full-contact with people used to different levels and different styles they'll never be effective... sound familiar?

Not really, because I trained bareknuckle full contact to the body and light contact to the face sparring in Brasil.

However as some people including Sanjuro (yes I know it is scary) have correctly pointed out/implied this was just an exhibition.


I love you, mate. It's just for the sake of the world I don't think the world is ready for our test-tube offspring yet. Sides, like all purists, it wouldn't work: I'm MMA, your TCMA, but our child would be MMA.

You misunderstood my proposal but if you are that way inclined you can always check out taai gihk yahn. You would be unto a winner there as I know that you two see eye to eye.:D


I'm not going to be back home for another two years or so. If I wind up in Colombia, I'll let you know. :D

Believe me it is great here. If you come and see the women here then I know that you will stay. It will be sad for good old taai gihk yahn but you have to think about yourself.;)

Seriously speaking, I asked you about London because if you are going there then I can recommend you a sifu you can chat with regarding kung fu "softness" etc. I remember that we had a discussion about this subject some time ago.


Go elsewhere! Then you'll figure out how to beat wing chun! :p It's just like Catch 22, complete with the insanity clause... :eek:

That was a joke Mr Punch! Wing Chun studies will enable one to beat most people.:D

[Mr Punch]

Joking aside, and I know you're joking in this karaoke gag, but every other thing you say is denigrating or belittling MMA and its practitioners in some way. I know they're not a bunch of shrinking violets, but is it any wonder why everyone thinks you're a bit odd, have social problems and are paranoid and over defensive and therefore, quite probably full of ****?

And that's everyone, mate. It's not just the 'kickboxers': you know people like LKMDFM and Chris Jurak who had one of China's and the world's most feared and horrible and horribly authentic TCMA teachers, and who now teach, shock horror, san shou: a sport based on TCMA...

It's not just the amateurs like Kansuke whose opinion is 'retarded' and knows nothing about anything despite having had maybe 8 years in WC under pretty well-respected people considering how b!tchy the WC world is and 450 years in wrestling.

It's not even just the TCMAers, most of whom are embarrassed to have you in their camp...

It's not even just the other obnoxious loner weirdoes...

But it's also the newbs, who aren't 'with' anyone, who tentatively suggest that you have attitude problems.


However, practicing MMA as one´s chosen option is not absurd. ... if you are happy with what you practise then that is what it is all about.

...
That is because your training is not pure or authentic as mine! ...

Having said that, I do not classify your acomplishment as lesser! Furthermore, I don´t even say that you are a bad fighter or that I am better.


You know what Lucas, there are enough people here crosstraining in irrelevant arts and they don´t need the art of karaoke to occupy their fragile attention spans.;)

Now, who is putting down who???I think we all know.

[Mr Punch]

The keywords there are "successfully" and "Integrated". The next question would be by whom? I will assume the answer would be Kung fu Masters! Not people who had happened to train Wing Chun or Hungar for a couple of years with god knows who, before having discovered their calling as Muay Thai or Bjj preachers.There is a complete and absurd circularity to this argument.

The person (even assuming it was one) who integrated Tibetan Lion's Roar into White Crane was a kung fu master, right? But when did he become a kung fu master? Maybe he was an ass who couldnt get his master's WC to work so he went elsewhere? Maybe his master's WC was crappy, and now we don't remember his master, because he went elsewhere and pick-n-mixed and became the master? But it's the chicken and the egg: we don't know if the guy became a master and so he had the genius to be able to successfully pick-n-mix, or if the pick-n-mix made him the master and the genius.

There is NO difference to anyone taking Thai today. Of course, some of the principles are completely opposing, but the mastery comes as much in the ability to internalize and integrate situations, techs, principles and even, in some cases, whole styles.

And let's be honest, it's fighting, not rocket science: even if some principle is opposing, if you can get your enemy flat on his face you've achieved what you set out to, martial purity or no.

BTW, you still haven't said how you would view someone taking WC (under for the sake of argument, a 'good' sifu) and simultaneously CLF (under a good sifu)? Opposing and mutually irrelevant principles, but both trad KF... is that good? Bad? Lacking in attention span? Lacking in depth? Do tell, sir!

[Mr Punch]

Not really, because I trained bareknuckle full contact to the body and light contact to the face sparring in Brasil.Against other styles? Besides which, in the context of that vid, if you don't practice FC to body AND face (which contrary to a lot of people's opinions on this thread, a lot of of KK schools in Japan still do) then it's a similar level of unpreparedness to the DBers in that vid. It's a completely different game 'fighting' just FC to body as opposed to FC to head too.


You misunderstood my proposalShucks.


Believe me it is great here. If you come and see the women here then I know that you will stay.LOL, my wife wouldn't let me...


I asked you about London because if you are going there then I can recommend you a sifu you can chat with regarding kung fu "softness" etc. I remember that we had a discussion about this subject some time ago.And remember, although I'm always interested in other perspectives, I probably said that I have a good access to good teachers with good aspects of softness over here, and that what you mistook for a lack of knowledge was merely a difference in opinion.

[Kansuke]

That is ok Lucas. I have been ignoring Kansuke for a while now and I am sure that other people reading his posts have realized that he is nothing but a troll and his may purpose here is to stir sh¡t as he is continually showing his real "face" to the other posters.

Having said that it is worth pointing out that he does have knucklehead "kung fu":rolleyes:, friends here who nurture and "feed" him as if he was their love child.


Now see? There you go again. Are you just here to start trouble? Are you just here to tell everyone who does and doesn't have the 'real' kungfu according to you, with all your extensive expertise? :rolleyes:

Come on, just knock it off and try acting like a human for once.

For once.

[Kansuke]

Believe me it is great here. If you come and see the women here then I know that you will stay.



If you are anything like the 'character' you portray here, I'm sure looking at the women is the extent of your interaction with them.

[Hardwork108]

Joking aside, and I know you're joking in this karaoke gag,

Well thank god for that. The problem with some of you MMA guys is that you can`t tell the jokes from the serious comments.


but every other thing you say is denigrating or belittling MMA and its practitioners in some way.

Not really. For the last time and please read this carefully! What I say is: to understand a single style of kung fu (even a relatively less complicated one such as Wing Chun), takes YEARS of practice with an AUTHENTIC sifu. This means that before one can make "denigrating" and "belittling" comments regarding kung fu one must have had access to what it encompasses.

I have heard enough DENIGRATING comments on kung fu with references to"chi f@rts","fantasy kung fu","magic kung fu","irrelevance of kung fu forms","irrelevance of the internals", "irelevance of Iron Palm" and the now famous, "no ground fighting in kung fu" from so called sifus here, and etc,etc,etc, and I mean etc! to last me a life time!

A lot of these comments have come from MMA-ists or MMA-ists who think that they know kung fu, who are honestly capable of providing many enlightening info on boxing, kickboxing and bjj approaches, but fall flat on their faces when they make their usual demeaning comments on TCMAs. Furthermore they are too ready to associate themselves with some famous kung fu master when their "kung fu wisdom" is challenged.

Of course they would never refer to kung fu in the above belittling ways infront of their famous masters!!! Not that these masters would even recongnize them in the first place, if that was the case.



I know they're not a bunch of shrinking violets, but is it any wonder why everyone thinks you're a bit odd, have social problems

"Social problems"? I believe that you are mistaking me with Kansuke (among others here).;)



and are paranoid and over defensive and therefore, quite probably full of ****?

That is right, I am paranoic when you and some of your buddies can´t take a joke and even manage to confuse the jokes with the serious commentary. This often resulted (in the past) in you guys ganging up and "chasing" me across the threads to discredit me and for "revenge", LOL!

Yep, that certainly sounds like I am the one who is paranoic. :rolleyes:



And that's everyone, mate. It's not just the 'kickboxers': you know people like LKMDFM and Chris Jurak who had one of China's and the world's most feared and horrible and horribly authentic TCMA teachers,

I have drawn my conclusions on Chris´s kung fu knowledge mainly from his posts. I know one thing for sure and that is he is not his teacher!

As far as Ikfmdc is concerned he is just a kickboxer with an attitude. Just have a look at his contribution to the subject matter of this thread and you will see a big ZERO! Talk about "social problems". I don´t even bother answering his posts.


and who now teach, shock horror, san shou: a sport based on TCMA...

There is more money in sports MAs/kickboxing nowadays than in TCMA, or didn´t you know?


It's not just the amateurs like Kansuke whose opinion is 'retarded' and knows nothing about anything despite having had maybe 8 years in WC under pretty well-respected people considering how b!tchy the WC world is and 450 years in wrestling.

It is the first time that I hear that Kansuke`s Wing Chun "history" and alias not from him. His WC training must have been so "fantastic" that he does not list it in his profile and did not in his previous forum encarnation... For god´s sake MrPunch, don´t you see what I am trying to say here?

Furthermore, you seem to be suffering from the same moral amnesia as the rest of the MMA fraternity here as regards Kansuke´s provokative and abusive behavior because while you are too ready to critique my attitude you seem to ignore mr Kansuke´s less than amicable behavior.

I just like to add that Kansuke´s wrestling talents are wasted here in the kung fu forums and would be advisable for him to find himself grappling forum.


It's not even just the TCMAers, most of whom are embarrassed to have you in their camp...

FALSE ASSUMPTION! but you are free to make that assumption. I would say that many of them just don´t want to waste time mixing it with the majority MMA-ists here for fear of being ganged up on and bad mouthed.

Furthermore for some of them kung fu is a business/livelyhood and they post here to promote their schools/business. The thought of them or their school being badmouthed by some know nothing knucklehead - with an apparent "kung fu" reputation - on the net, would be "horrifying" to say the least.

Or don´t you remember the prank that was played on me by some of your forum MMA-ist friends (yes the ones with the famous kung fu teachers...lol), where my posts were misquoted making me out to be a Nazi antisemetic (among other nasty accusations) in order to discredit me.

Imagine how a TCMA teacher would feel if his school was associated with that kind of negative publicity on the net?

You, Mr Punch should try and see the other side of the coin once in a while!!!


It's not even just the other obnoxious loner weirdoes...

"Abnoxious loner weirdos"? I believe that we have talked enough about Kansuke for today, don´t you?


But it's also the newbs, who aren't 'with' anyone, who tentatively suggest that you have attitude problems.

Well that is because they are newbies and don´t know the game. One of them even apologized recently because he mistakenly insulted me. I believe that the negative flow of posts from the MMA-ists contributed to that mistake.



I think we all know.

I think that you all know kickboxing and good on ya mate!:D

[Hardwork108]

There is a complete and absurd circularity to this argument.
Absurdity is in the mind of the beholder!


The person (even assuming it was one) who integrated Tibetan Lion's Roar into White Crane was a kung fu master, right? But when did he become a kung fu master? Maybe he was an ass who couldnt get his master's WC to work so he went elsewhere? Maybe his master's WC was crappy, and now we don't remember his master, because he went elsewhere and pick-n-mixed and became the master? But it's the chicken and the egg: we don't know if the guy became a master and so he had the genius to be able to successfully pick-n-mix, or if the pick-n-mix made him the master and the genius.

That paragraph gave me headache and in the end did not say anything. Talk about contact fighting.:D


There is NO difference to anyone taking Thai today. Of course, some of the principles are completely opposing, but the mastery comes as much in the ability to internalize and integrate situations, techs, principles and even, in some cases, whole styles.
I am not denying that one can mix MA´s with opposing principles and make them work for him in a combat situation! You are missing the point. We all know a well trained MMA-ist can fight the question is wether he is qualified to criticize a given style of kung fu, given what amounts to limited experience in that style, given the diversity of his martial arts training commitment?

If you comprehend what I said above then you will understand that I don´t criticize the MMA ists. I criticize their "expert" opinions on kung fu!!!


And let's be honest, it's fighting, not rocket science: even if some principle is opposing, if you can get your enemy flat on his face you've achieved what you set out to, martial purity or no.
Again, you are confusing the issue. I often give the example of a fighter who "hops" around like a boxer and chain punches his opponent when he has the chance and perhaps puts him flat on his face. That is effective fighting and can even be classified as MMA, but is it Wing Chun? No of course not! Is it effective? It may be but it is not WC nor Kung fu!!!

Remember that I don´t criticize the fighting prowess of MMA fighters nor the approach. My point is that it is not TCMA!


BTW, you still haven't said how you would view someone taking WC (under for the sake of argument, a 'good' sifu) and simultaneously CLF (under a good sifu)? Opposing and mutually irrelevant principles, but both trad KF... is that good? Bad? Lacking in attention span? Lacking in depth? Do tell, sir!

I will tell now that you had enough sense to call me "sir":D (Now that was a joke and in no way was I implying that all TCMAs have to be referred to as "sirs" while all MMA-ists be given lesser titles).

I hope that at least some you MMA-ists know that many kung fu masters are/were masters in more than one style of kung fu. Having mastered one style of kung fu makes the mastery of a second and third style easier. There may be opposing principles on the surface but some major principles stay the same in most cases. I am talking about difficult and time consuming aspects such as rooting, "softness". and other internal principles.

Once you have the rooting which in some cases take a few years to attain then you wont have any major rooting problems when practicing other styles. "Softness" training is eternal and is relevant to higher levels of kung fu training. Once one begins to comprehend the significance of softness then one can pursue its perfection no matter what style of kung fu one practices.


Now your question refers to practicing two separate kung fu styles at the same time. For the reasons that I mentioned above it would be more worthwhile to train two separate kung fu styles together than to mix kung fu training in one style with a completely irrelevant style of combat.

Of course something that we can´t forget is time. If your time is limited then it is better to train one style well rather than train two or more styles not so well.

[Hardwork108]

Against other styles?

As I implied before, I am still trying to "master" (with small "m") my Wing Chun, before I go on to fighting other styles.


Besides which, in the context of that vid, if you don't practice FC to body AND face (which contrary to a lot of people's opinions on this thread, a lot of of KK schools in Japan still do) then it's a similar level of unpreparedness to the DBers in that vid. It's a completely different game 'fighting' just FC to body as opposed to FC to head too.

The context of that video does not mean a d@mn thing! It was FAKE Mr Punch! A publicity stunt! THAT IS ALL IT WAS!


Shucks.

EXACTLY!


LOL, my wife wouldn't let me...

Well you don´t have to tell her. And if you are worried about security issues here, then don´t worry as I will protect you.:D


And remember, although I'm always interested in other perspectives, I probably said that I have a good access to good teachers with good aspects of softness over here, and that what you mistook for a lack of knowledge was merely a difference in opinion.

So what you are saying here is that you are willing to crosstrain in irrelevant MAs but are not willing to "crosstrain" to better understand your kung fu or at least an aspect of kung fu such as "softness" that is complicated at the best of times?

We can all improve our knowledge. I try to improve mine everyday.

[taai gihk yahn]

I have drawn my conclusions on Chris´s kung fu knowledge mainly from his posts.
"mainly"? and what, pray tell, are your other sources of info? do we have a leak in our school, LOL? as far as your "conclusions", what one puts out publicly and what one keeps close to the chest may not always be the same ;); anyway, the "truth" is in the hands, which is really the only way to discern the actual level of another's understanding;


I know one thing for sure and that is he is not his teacher!
assuming you mean Chan Tai San, I agree, 100%! pretty much the only correct thing you have ascertained about me to date!

[Hardwork108]

"mainly"? and what, pray tell, are your other sources of info? do we have a leak in our school, LOL?

There is a "leak" but not at your school.;)



as far as your "conclusions", what one puts out publicly and what one keeps close to the chest may not always be the same ;);

Be careful about making those kind of comments. Some of your MMA friends here will start making jokes about "magic/secret kung fu techniques" and so on.

I for one won´t though as I know that there are secret kung fu techniques.;)

Wether you know any is anyone´s guess.



anyway, the "truth" is in the hands, which is really the only way to discern the actual level of another's understanding;:D

Make up your mind will you, is it close to the chest or in the hands?



assuming you mean Chan Tai San, I agree, 100%! pretty much the only correct thing you have ascertained about me to date!

We both know that your statement is untrue.;)

[taai gihk yahn]

There is a "leak" but not at your school.;)
well, I truly hope that your urologist is able to fix that for you ;);)


Make up your mind will you, is it close to the chest or in the hands?
now now, keep it under your hat...


We both know that your statement is untrue.;)
"We"? Why, I didn't know that you were leading a mountaineering expedition (http://www.clipser.com/watch_video/583158)!

[Kansuke]

Look at the last several posts by 'hardwork' and see that all he does is proclaim himself the exclusive authority on all things kungfu and pass judgment on everyone, their experience and what they may or may not say before the great god of kungfu.

All the presumputousness and negativity distract and derail, and everyone but him seems to see it pretty clearly.

Every thread he brings his 'authority' to becomes all about him and his attitude; who does or does not have the 'real' kungfu, then defending and defining his egotistical (and as far as I can tell, completely unwarranted) presumptions.

It's all quite unfortunate and unnecessary.

[friday]

I love kung fu too and and individual styles have limitations just like everything else in life. No one is denying that. It is just many people exagerrate the limitations because of lack of serious knowledge or even ignorance which may or may not be their own fault but that of their instructors.

Can you explain what limitations you see?


I don´t agree with the "guesswork" instruction. However I do agree with sifus who will make sure that ones performance of the form is up to par before explaining the applications and once in a while it does not hurt if the sifu lets the student think about an application before he goes on to teach it. That is how I was trained.

When I ask my sifu how to apply each technique in a form he explains the purpose and demonstrates how it works on me. So every time I practise the form or the techniques in a form I will know what the intent and useage is on each technique. Do you think its better to have a student practise a technique or form over and over without knowing how to apply it until say 6mths later when its either explained or he guesses it correctly or would it be better for him/her to practise the technique knowing how to use it from the start?

what are your thoughts on this scenario. a sifu in a kung fu style teaches his students about 90% of what he knows, the application etc and about 10% is left as guesswork. Those students train for say 10-15 years in an individual style and then begin to teach others and the same process occurs in the transmission. What do you think will happen 9-10 generations later?


Of course there are advanced applications to some forms and hence a good sifu will wait for the student to have mastered the basic applications before teaching and training the more advanced ones.

Sure this is very normal.

T
he problem arises when the student thinks that he knows the form enough to be taught an application to a given technique and when the sifu refuses he then runs along and joins a unctional" kickboxing school.:D

my point on this is as before. I think a student is more likely to perform the form better if they understand the technique/application behind it.


Look at Exadon´s case. He thought that his form was great until he was shown otherwise. Once he improves his form to a certain level then he will be better able to understand and perform a given application.

I dont think his experience in that case serves as an exampe of anything but the basic idea that if you want to perform your forms better you practise more. without any understanding of the application you are nothing but a dancer. moving through a set of predetermined moves.



Agreed!

Kung fu IS primarily about fighting on one level and about health, fitness and spiritualism on another level. Generally speaking the fighting aspects should be taught first.

then do you agree that without its ability to fight/defend yourself well it is missing an essential component?


Yes it will take years to master a kung fu style. That does not say that you won´t be able to fight before you reach mastery. However, there are aspects of kung fu that will take years to master and perfect. The stance work and internals/softness/relaxation in application etc. are by design difficult things to master. That is why many people don´t and half train their kung fu and then compensate any shortcomings (wether real or imagenary) by cross training.

Having in mind the effort required to cross train and the training undertaken in popular MMA arts such as MT, KB, BJJ, judo, etc I suggest it would be alot easier to devote the effort in the core style if the answers were so readily found there...



Others do. Sparring and even ground fighting is a part of the WC school curriculum to which I belong. The ground fighting is not bjj nor wrestling it is WING CHUN and it is based on WC principles using WC striking and Chin-na.

where did this ground fighting come from? was this in existence 100 years ago or a newly developed set of techniques or strategy to deal with the onset of BJJ, wrestling etc in more recent years? how does it measure up against BJJ specialists or MMA guys? a good test would be to visit a local MMA school and try them out.


I have come across one kung fu school that did not have sparring. However, the mindset of that school was that each technique was basically a finisher. The targets were not the usual "sparring" ones.

I saw stuff there that I had never seen before and will never see again. The advanced students and of course the sifu had bodies that were rock hard. Their hands were extremely "heavy" and yet relaxed and the strikes easily penetrated what I thought to be my hard abdomen. And guess what? No pressups,sit ups nor any type of weight training.

did you fight them? I'm not really into the reliability of one technique/one punch finishers. but then again high risk high return - maybe it works. I know of good kung fu schools with students who (with no fight records) who would be able to defend themselves or fight quite well on the street.


Moral of the story? There are a lot of surprises in kung fu, REAL kung fu that is.


By the way, most of the training was two man and believe it or not they had some guys in the school that had good real (street) fight records.



In a real and authentic kung fu school you will get a sifu that will teach you what you deserve. That is based on your character and dedication. There are other authentic sifus who will hold back, but then that subject belongs to another thread.

There is alot more to this then you know...but i think this is something you will either learn or never learn one day...and its not for me to explain.


I don´t agree with sports competitions but realistic sparring a useful tool in kung fu training.

you will find alot of sports competitions is as close as you will get. One major benefit is being able to find people from other martial arts. you may realise the disadvantage of the habits you develop when only ever sparring with people that practise the same style as you do.


Of course one must train hard (hardwork:D)

As far as fighting other styles is concerned I will only say that once you have expert knowledge in your own style of kung fu then it is up to you how to test it.

you do not need to wait till you have expert knowledge in your own style to test what you know.


Lastly, make sure that your sifu is the real deal and not a "self proclaimed traditionalist".;)

haha...:)........................................

[Mr Punch]

Actually, my mistake, it's Knifefighter, not Kansuke, who has the wing chun history... can't remember Kansuke's KF history... but here he is!

No time to answer anything more interesting right now.

[friday]

sorry stuffed up the quoting section of my reply to HW

[Hardwork108]

sorry stuffed up the quoting section of my reply to HW

No problem friday. I am still trying to figure out some of the technical stuff in this site. :)

Please try to edit your post so that it will be easier for me to answer. Thanks.

[Hardwork108]

Actually, my mistake, it's Knifefighter, not Kansuke, who has the Wing Chun history...





I thought that sounded weird.:eek:

Generally speaking TCMAs such as Wing Chun would be too mentally challenging for the likes of Kansuke.



can't remember Kansuke's KF history...

Neither can he, apparently.:rolleyes:



but here he is!

Haven´t you ever wondered why?


No time to answer anything more interesting right now.

And with that last remark you have ruined my weekend, you bad man!:D

[Hardwork108]

well, I truly hope that your urologist is able to fix that for you ;);)

The cranberry juice is doing its job. Not to worry.:D



now now, keep it under your hat...
I will keep it under my hat. You are not going to get any kung fu secrets from me. ;)



"We"? Why, I didn't know that you were leading a mountaineering expedition (http://www.clipser.com/watch_video/583158)!

By "we" I meant me, you and your ego.:D

I don´t think that mountaineering is relevant to my kung fu training but as a crosstrainer you are free to do whatever you want.

Of course, as any "functionally" trained crosstrainer will tell you, it is good to train "realistically" for any situation, meaning in your case that if a raindeer ever decides to mug you on a moutain, you will be much better prepared than a TCMA traditionalist!;)

[Kansuke]

Actually, my mistake, it's Knifefighter, not Kansuke, who has the wing chun history... can't remember Kansuke's KF history... but here he is!

No time to answer anything more interesting right now.




Yes, I trained some northern longfist and chen taichiquan for a few years in Xi'an way back when.

[taai gihk yahn]

The cranberry juice is doing its job. Not to worry.:D
LOL


I will keep it under my hat. You are not going to get any kung fu secrets from me. ;)
You've everything away!!! I know where the poison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EkBuKQEkio&feature=related) is!!!


By we I meant me, you and your ego.:D
don't forget Id and Anima!


if a raindeer ever decides to mug you on a moutain, you will be much better prepared than a TCMA traditionalist!;)
I tell you, I'm not gonna get caught that way a second time!

[Hardwork108]

Yes, I trained some northern longfist and chen taichiquan for a few years in Xi'an way back when.
:rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

:rolleyes:



Something I can help you with?

[Hardwork108]

LOL

Leaking Out Lots? :D


You've everything away!!! I know where the poison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EkBuKQEkio&feature=related) is!!!

Thanks to you I will think twice next time someone offers me Cranberry juice.:eek:


don't forget Id and Anima!

How could I ever?


I tell you, I'm not gonna get caught that way a second time!

According to my sources the first time that this happened to you it was not a real raindeer but kansuke in his raindeer costume trying out his "Long Fist"(:rolleyes:) technique and Animal wrestling combination. This is apparently a new, modern and "functional" martial art. Much better than any TCMA in existance.

It seems that in China this combination is known as the Mountain Mugger`s Fist and is only taught to people who have moral and intellectual shortcomings while having no hope of comprehending real kung fu. This at least enables them to make a living of sorts and hence not starve to death.

I heard that the only reason that he was successfull in mugging you is because during the struggle your wallet fell out of your pocket and rolled down the mountain and Kansuke being the "professional" that he is threw himself down the mountain after it.

I don`t know wether this is true, but some say that he may have sufferred some serious brain damage because of his fall (while others maintain that he was born that way;)).

While the real truth of this so called rumor has been varified to most of us, it seems that the matter did not end there as some animal activists have blamed Kansuke for at least two fatal heart attacks sufferred by some real raindeer that happened to have witnessed the whole incident.

[taai gihk yahn]

Leaking Out Lots? :D
Loads Of Liquid



Thanks to you I will think twice next time someone offers me Cranberry juice.:eek:
I'd extrapolate that to just about anything liquid or solid that anyone offers you to ingest...


According to my sources the first time that this happened to you it was not a real raindeer but kansuke in his raindeer costume trying out his "Long Fist"(:rolleyes:) technique and Animal wrestling combination. This is apparently a new, modern and "functional" martial art. Much better than any TCMA in existance.
It seems that in China this combination is known as the Mountain Mugger`s Fist and is only taught to people who have moral and intellectual shortcomings while having no hope of comprehending real kung fu. This at least enables them to make a living of sorts and hence not starve to death.
I heard that the only reason that he was successfull in mugging you is because during the struggle your wallet fell out of your pocket and rolled down the mountain and Kansuke being the "professional" that he is threw himself down the mountain after it.
I don`t know wether this is true, but some say that he may have sufferred some serious brain damage because of his fall (while others maintain that he was born that way).
While the real truth of this so called rumor has been varified to most of us, it seems that the matter did not end there as some animal activists have blamed Kansuke for at least two fatal heart attacks sufferred by some real raindeer that happened to have witnessed the whole scene.
well, you pretty much trampled any remnant of humor out of that one...

[Kansuke]

Once again all that 'hardwork' has to offer is on display for all to see.

[Hardwork108]

I'd extrapolate that to just about anything liquid or solid that anyone offers you to ingest...

You mean from any MMA-ist posting in this site I gather.;)



well, you pretty much trampled any remnant of humor out of that one...

Who said I was joking?

[taai gihk yahn]

You mean from any MMA-ist posting in this site I gather.;)
I'm fairly certain that they would make up only a small percentage of the folks in this world who would gladly wait in line to offer you something toxic to drink...


Who said I was joking?
whatever it was that you were doing, it's dead now, that's for certain

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm fairly certain that they would make up only a small percentage of the folks in this world who would gladly wait in line to offer you something toxic to drink...


whatever it was that you were doing, it's dead now, that's for certain

Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?

[Kansuke]

It seems to me that just one person is 'working hard' to keep the flames burning here.

[golden arhat]

I have news for you. Wing Chun is not as "incomplete" as some MMA-ists such as yourself think.



do you grapple?
do you wrestle
do you do groundwork
or include kicks above the waist?

[taai gihk yahn]

Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?
HW still seems to be the one w/ an agenda, I'm really just goofing around, being dubious and all that...

[Hardwork108]

I'm fairly certain that they would make up only a small percentage of the folks in this world who would gladly wait in line to offer you something toxic to drink...

How would you know? As your sentiments and indeed your friends here seem to be mainly limited to MMA-ists!



whatever it was that you were doing, it's dead now, that's for certain

Well it was good while it lasted. If you don´t believe me then just ask Kansuke. ;)

[Hardwork108]

HW still seems to be the one w/ an agenda,

My "agenda" is to talk about, inform and discuss the traditional approach(s) to kung fu training. I am not selling any organization nor school!

For those of you blessed with shorter than normal attention spans or who suffer from the punch drunkeness syndrom because of over emphasis on your "realistic" and "functional" training, let me remind you that THIS IS A KUNG FU FORUM!

Meaning that people who talk kung fu here are not the ones with the agenda but those who are here to sell some "New and Improved";"Modern and Better";"MMA is King" approach, ARE!. And these are the people that are YOUR friends Mr taai gihk yahn and NOT mine!!!

It is your friends here seem to put down the original/traditional methods of kung fu training while offering the "modern" and "scientific" methods/approaches as "improved" alternatives. Some may be selling a school or an organization while others want just to sound as if they are qualified, ie selling themselves to feel good about themselves.

What most of them have in common is that they are clueless as far as the subject of AUTHENTIC kung fu is concerned. Some know even less than you but you will never call them out as you don`t when elements such as your friend Kansuke acts abnoxiously, and that is because your morality is suffering from Hypocrit´s Amnesia.

By the way, you should thank me as I just named a disease after you.:D

While you accuse me of having an agenda a lot of your friends are here to promote their so called "kung fu" or is it karate, muay thai,bjj or just kickboxing (take your pick), by perhaps posting youtube videos of themselves heroically breaking pieces of wood, punching bags or participating in sparring and showing how they have "mastered" their "kung fu" (hello Sanjuro ronin,BTW, have you falsely discredited anyone recently?)



I'm really just goofing around, being dubious and all that...

What else is new? And besides you are in "good" company with all the "I am a master of a dozen fighting arts AND kung fu" pretenders here!


HW8

PS. Poor Sanjuro_ronin, it must be frustrating for him to see his friends go where he does not dare to venture. The man couldn`t discuss kung fu if his life depended on it and keeps making snide remarks while hiding behind the ignore button!

[Hardwork108]

do you grapple?
do you wrestle
do you do groundwork

Only if there is real chemistry between myself and my assailant otherwise I won`t respect myself the next day.:D

LOOK! You are proving my point about the lack of knowledge regarding kung fu!

This may come as a suprise to you but there are kung fu styles that address ground fighting and that includes some lineages of Northern Praying Mantis; Tiger; kung fu styles that use drunken boxing forms(which are full of ground fighting applications); Dog Boxing and yes some lineages of Wing Chun.

I believe that the Monkey style does address ground fighting but I am not sure about it.

That is why I always refer to AUTHENTIC kung fu or AUTHENTIC school, because if you have no access to the real deal then you are really better off training MMA rather than in some "Mcdonald" kung fu school and you would be surprised at how many of the well known "masters" with "good reputations" fall into that category . That is my honest opinion!


or include kicks above the waist?

The Siu Lam lineage of Wing Chun teaches a few kicks to the chest level. There is even a heel kick to the throat area from close range. However, higher level kicks are discouraged but exist as an option.

There are other WC lineages and indeed kung fu styles that do not have the higher level kicks. This does not make them bad. Many kung fu styles regard high kicks as risky because sometimes the genital area is exposed; one is momentarily off balance and etc. etc.

This does not make high kicks bad but at the same time you shouldn´t assume a lack of high kicking techniques necessarilly reflects weakness.

[Kansuke]

Look at this. Over and over again, just the same nonsense from this 'hardwork' guy. What is the point?

[friday]

HW - the quote issues in my post have been addressed.

cheers
F

[sanjuro_ronin]

HW still seems to be the one w/ an agenda, I'm really just goofing around, being dubious and all that...

Agenda?
HA !
Please note the 2 points in my sig line, that is all that ever needs to be said.

[golden arhat]

Only if there is real chemistry between myself and my assailant otherwise I won`t respect myself the next day.:D



so YOU YOURSELF dont know how to grapple and dont cover groundwork in YOUR art?



i'm not asking about weither monkey style does this or that or mantis or qwhatever

i'm asking about you and YOUR training

and seeing as its pretty obvious you dont train for ground fighting


i can safely say that my training is better than yours and alot of other arts simply because ou and many other arts exclude whole elements of martial arts in favour of one principle

making your style incomplete. simple

[Hardwork108]

Agenda?
HA !
Please note the 2 points in my sig line, that is all that ever needs to be said.

Note the following quotes from my earlier posts as they show you Sanjuro ronin to be the dishonest troll that you are!


My "agenda" is to talk about, inform and discuss the traditional approach(s) to kung fu training. I am not selling any organization nor school!


Meaning that people who talk kung fu here are not [my emphasis]the ones with the agenda but those who are here to sell some "New and Improved";"Modern and Better";"MMA is King" approach, ARE!. And these are the people that are YOUR friends Mr taai gihk yahn and NOT mine!!!


While you [taai gihk yahn] accuse me of having an agenda a lot of your friends are here to promote their so called "kung fu" or is it karate, muay thai,bjj or just kickboxing (take your pick), by perhaps posting youtube videos of themselves heroically breaking pieces of wood, punching bags or participating in sparring and showing how they have "mastered" their "kung fu" (hello Sanjuro ronin,BTW, have you falsely discredited anyone recently?)


For those of you blessed with shorter than normal attention spans or who suffer from the punch drunkeness syndrom because of over emphasis on you "realistic" and "functional" training, let me remind you that THIS IS A KUNG FU FORUM!


FALSE ASSUMPTION! but you are free to make that assumption. I would say that many of them just don´t want to waste time mixing it with the majority MMA-ists here for fear of being ganged up on and bad mouthed.

Furthermore for some of them kung fu is a business/livelyhood and they post here to promote their schools/business. The thought of them or their school being badmouthed by some no nothing knucklehead - with an apparent "kung fu" reputation - on the net, would be "horrifying" to say the least.

Or don´t you remember the prank that was played on me by some of your forum MMA-ist friends (yes the ones with the famous kung fu teachers...lol), where my posts were misquoted making me out to be a Nazi antisemetic (among other nasty accusations) in order to discredit me.

Imagine how a TCMA teacher would feel if his school was associated with that kind of negative publicity on the net?

This is one of the reasons that I don´t give too much info/details on the net about my training as I have been "bitten" before!!!

To conclude, those who have practised or practise kung fu in the traditional way will know where I am coming from just from reading my posts, whereas people like you Sanjuro_Ronin, never will!

People like you will always "identify" themselves on the net as your type always "get off" the attention you get for your implied "expertise" and your YouTube video clips :rolleyes:.

I don´t! I am not here to sell myself nor my school. I am here to discuss and enrich my approach which is the traditional way and is of RELEVANCE in a Kung Fu forum!


PS. Poor Sanjuro_ronin, it must be frustrating for him to see his friends go where he does not dare to venture. The man couldn`t discuss kung fu if his life depended on it and keeps making snide remarks while hiding behind the "ignore"!

Have a good read Sanjuro and perhaps you will see the disadvantages of being a "jack of all trades and master of none" (or at least not kung fu)!

[Hardwork108]

so YOU YOURSELF dont know how to grapple and dont cover groundwork in YOUR art?

I see that when the all mighty blessed you with your "super fighting talents" he took away your sense of humor.:D


i'm not asking about weither monkey style does this or that or mantis or qwhatever

I informed you about facts that you apparently had no knowledge of, and I came to that conclusion from your own posts which seemed to suggest that MMA training somehow provides you with aspects that you did not think existed in Kung Fu.

The question did not seem to be about my training or yours but rather about your perception of authentic kung fu training.

By the way, my last post addressed to you has satisfactorily answered your question.


i'm asking about you and YOUR training

I will answer your question by saying that ground training is covered at the later stages of Chum Kiu in the Wing Chun school that I belong to in Brasil. It is a Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun.

I will also be honest enough to tell you that I had to leave Brasil for London shortly before I reached that level. In London I trained in a none WC school as I could not find one that was in anyway similar to what I had practiced in Rio (see what I mean?).

Shortly before I found this fantastic none WC school I had trained in another great one, also none WC, in which I trained techniques that were aimed at neutralizing and distablizing grapplers. Luckily we had a real grappler (who was training kung fu) to practice with.

Now in Colombia I am soon to meet a WC sifu here in Cali to see what he is all about. I hear that he is good and very combative in his approach.

There now, I have told you more than I should have perhaps but then maybe it was necessary.

Continuing about our discussion, I still say that the question here is not me but the richness and scope of authentic kung fu training which many MMA-ists with so called "kung fu backgrounds" do not seem to be aware of.

As far as Wing Chun is concerned I kept training on my own to maintain my skills and brushed things up with my sifu every time I visited Brasil and when on one occasion he visited London( to do a seminar). Actually, he told me that my other kung fu (none WC) training had improved my roots, power and technique.


and seeing as its pretty obvious you dont train for ground fighting

Not as much as you obviously.:D



i can safely say that my training is better than yours and alot of other arts simply because ou and many other arts exclude whole elements of martial arts in favour of one principle

Again, you are showing what little you understand about kung fu. There is not "one" principle in kung fu. Kung fu training is multidimensional and by implication will take a long time to master, that is if you are lucky enough to train in an AUTHENTIC school!


making your style incomplete. simple

Do you define what you do as complete? If yes, then you could fly to China tomorrow and beat the hell out of every kung fu master and sifu there. Does that sound realistic to you? If so then do it and come back and tell us about it!

[Lucas]

Sanjuro ronin to be the dishonest troll



sorry guys, i dont have any agenda. but this is comedy gold right here. im almost willing to quote that. :D

sj do you live under a bridge?

[Hardwork108]

sorry guys, i dont have any agenda. but this is comedy gold right here. im almost willing to quote that. :D

Sorry to offend your friend Lucas, but he is what he is. He has made dishonest comments about me in the past and when confronted he went and hid behind the ignore button from the safety of which he makes snide remarks. THAT IS A FACT!

I suppose this is some kind of Guerrilla tactic taught to him while he was in the Canadian armed forces from which he was discharged shortly after "shooting himself in the foot".

But hey, why am I discussing morality with you? You, who have also managed to include the likes of Kansuke among your friends, whose "baits" you find so funny while at the same time referring to me as a "troll". What a laugh!


sj do you live under a bridge?

Apparently as far as authentic kung fu training is concerned he does!

[Kansuke]

Ok, this 'hardwork' guy has got to go. What the hell does he have to say besides flame-inducing BS? He's just begging for attention that he can't seem to get unless he stirs up some ****. Enough of this troll.

[friday]

hmmm...what about my recent fixed up post? I demand a response now!!! :)

[Lucas]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[friday]

Lucas - whats wrong? whats with the big eyes??? you looking at me??????? :mad:
you wanna roll???? mma style???:cool:

[friday]

I'm soooo bored...:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

sorry guys, i dont have any agenda. but this is comedy gold right here. im almost willing to quote that. :D

sj do you live under a bridge?

LOL, the one good thing about having him on ignore is that I don't have to read his constant BS.
You guys that know me know my resume, its almost as long as my Johnson :D,
Those that don't can ask and all is answered.
As for groin ache, the 2 points in my sig make everything he says the BS that it is.
Period.

[Hardwork108]

hmmm...what about my recent fixed up post? I demand a response now!!! :)

Whoops, I forgot about that and I will respond to your post very soon.

Sorry. :o

[Hardwork108]

Lucas - whats wrong? whats with the big eyes??? you looking at me??????? :mad:
you wanna roll???? mma style???:cool:

Becareful about what you say. Lucas may indeed want to "roll" but rather in an amorous style. If you didn´t know then I will tell you, these MMA guys "bond" very easily. :D

[Hardwork108]

LOL, the one good thing about having him on ignore is that I don't have to read his constant BS.

"BS" such as the fact that you need to have years of serious and dedicated training in an AUTHENTIC kung fu school before you make your "expert" comments on the subject?

And "BS" such as the fact that training in many different MAs makes you Sanjuro a jack of all trades and a master of none (eventhough I suspect that your kyokushin karate skills may be of a very good level.)!

Or "BS" such as your untruthful statements regarding my person? Perhaps even "BS" such as you hiding behind the "ignore" button when I called your lie?


You guys that know me know my resume,

Your "resume :rolleyes:" means nothing in a KUNG FU forum! The world is full of MA instructors with long kung fu resumes who are ripping the pants off the unsuspecting MA enthusiasts.

And I am sorry but breaking slabs of wood on YouTube :rolleyes:, does not cut it either as far as your "kung fu reputation" is concerned, eventhough it would explain why you want people to know your real identity as so that they will refer to you by name when they say, "bravo, bravo for breaking that piece of wood".


Those that don't can ask and all is answered.

No thanks as I have seen enough of your kung fu "resume"...lol.


As for groin ache,

You should have that problem of yours looked at. Didn´t they teach you robots anything about safe sex in the military?



the 2 points in my sig make everything he says the BS that it is.

The 2 points in your sig are worthless just like your kung fu "resume"!



Period.

EXACTLY!

[Lucas]

Lucas - whats wrong? whats with the big eyes??? you looking at me??????? :mad:
you wanna roll???? mma style???:cool:

lol not lookin atcha, unless your a classy chick ;)

it was my response, or rather the lack of words to describe my response to who mis understood forum postings can be. such as when hardwork thinks im kansuke's buddy because in a different thread i made a comment on how hardwork took kansuke's bait (implying he was baiting, you know like a troll ).

but sheesh, im a MMA guy and i didnt even know it. funny because i dont recall ever having been trained at any MMA gyms.

and as to the amorous rolling.....if your a classy chick....:cool::D

personally, i never take any of this internet stuff seriously. its really mostly intertainment while im bored at work.

oh i glean the occasional bit of knowledge or information from guys here from time to time, which is nice.

ive never been worried about 'trolls' or 'flame wars' i usually just ignore it or insert a wanna be witty quip from time to time, or just laugh my arse off at the rediculousness of any rediculousness i see.

this is becoming quite the response, ill end now.

THE END

[friday]

Lucas - thats ok. I'm not a chick. no amorous rolling with you please.

any classy chicks on this forum that would like to roll? I don't think good looking classy chicks ever attend those showdowns people organise. Too many of those and I suspect they probably don't look that nice anymore...

HW - thats ok. You can respond when you get a chance.

[Lucas]

what?!? no classy dames on the forum? SAY IT AINT SO!!!

[Hardwork108]

Can you explain what limitations you see?

Let us take Wing Chun. I know for a fact that WC has more power than it is given credit for but when it is compared to certain lineages of Southern Praying Mantis, then it falls short as it lacks the type of body unity that some SPM schools develop.

I am not saying that WC does not have body oness/unity principles but only that they are different from some other styles of kung fu and as a result not as powerful.

Staying with Wing Chun, the fact that in this style one turns the stance to absorb force can be a disadvantage if applied against an opponent who is a good "listener" and/ or "sticker". Other styles of kung fu such as SPM, Five Ancester Fist, etc. will face the opponent squarely and will disipate his force by using hands/arms and even upper body shifting. This is faster and IMHO more "in your face"!


When I ask my sifu how to apply each technique in a form he explains the purpose and demonstrates how it works on me. So every time I practise the form or the techniques in a form I will know what the intent and useage is on each technique. Do you think its better to have a student practise a technique or form over and over without knowing how to apply it until say 6mths later when its either explained or he guesses it correctly or would it be better for him/her to practise the technique knowing how to use it from the start?

The student can have the meaning of the techniques explained to him as soon as he is performing them correctly while performing the form. This means that there is no point in teaching him applications if his stances are not correct and he is not delivering the strikes correctly.

He should not be visualizing any applications while he is performing his form incorrectly. Initially his MAIN focus should be in the correct performance of the movements.


what are your thoughts on this scenario. a sifu in a kung fu style teaches his students about 90% of what he knows, the application etc and about 10% is left as guesswork. Those students train for say 10-15 years in an individual style and then begin to teach others and the same process occurs in the transmission. What do you think will happen 9-10 generations later?

Probably what has happened to Sanjuro_ronin.:D

Seriously speaking. I am against holding back if the student is worthy,dedicated and of GOOD CHARACTER. However not all students can be classified as worthy that means that in traditional schools there would be chosen disciples who would be taught everything while the rest would be taught the "standard" stuff.

The problem arises when the people who have not learned everything become "sifus" and then transfer their "knowledge" to the unknowing students. This scenario occurs because the said students decide to teach without their sifus´ permission or because the sifu gives them the permission to teach for financial reasons or just because he does not care less, knowing very well that the secrets of his given style are safe with him and his chosen disciples.

Is this right or wrong? The answer is "Yes".;)



my point on this is as before. I think a student is more likely to perform the form better if they understand the technique/application behind it.
I agree but again the sifu should make sure he is performing the techniques correctly to a good standard before he explains the applications.



I dont think his experience in that case serves as an exampe of anything but the basic idea that if you want to perform your forms better you practise more. without any understanding of the application you are nothing but a dancer. moving through a set of predetermined moves.

Well his experience serves to remind us all, specially the beginners that when we think we are ready for more or deeper instruction, we may well be mistaken.

I agree that without learning the applications of one´s forms one is doing nothing but dancing, however I truly believe that the student must be able to perform his form to a good level eg. with strong stances and solid and flowing techniques before he is taught the applications.





then do you agree that without its ability to fight/defend yourself well it is missing an essential component?

Of course I do!




Having in mind the effort required to cross train and the training undertaken in popular MMA arts such as MT, KB, BJJ, judo, etc I suggest it would be alot easier to devote the effort in the core style if the answers were so readily found there...

The answers may be found in the core style (assuming that some of the MMA-ists really practise kung fu as their core style) but they are not to be found "so readily". I would suggest that many people opt for MMA because the results can be achieved relatively quicker. Also nowadays people seem to have shorter attentions spans, not just regarding MA training but also cooking/eating, TV, music and etc.

Furthermore it is much easier to find a good MMA school than a good and authentic kung fu school. Plus the popular (among some) belief that kung fu does not work or is "lacking", doesn´t not help the case either.


where did this ground fighting come from?

I assume from where the rest of WC came from and that is Shaolin Kung fu.


was this in existence 100 years ago or a newly developed set of techniques or strategy to deal with the onset of BJJ, wrestling etc in more recent years?

It is from before the popularity of BJJ.


how does it measure up against BJJ specialists or MMA guys?

I couldn´t tell you personally because I haven´t trained that aspect of Siu Lam Wing Chun. However, sifu did participate in a friendly sparring session with a BJJ black belt in Rio (where his school is) without any conclusive results probably because they weren´t trying to kill each other.;)



a good test would be to visit a local MMA school and try them out.

Probably. A better test would be a street fight, a real one.;)



did you fight them?

There was no point in fighting them, believe me! Besides, I ended up training with them for a year and I wish that I could have stayed there for the rest of my life. Now that was REAL kung fu!


I'm not really into the reliability of one technique/one punch finishers.

With the right (kung fu) power the reliability increases.


but then again high risk high return - maybe it works.
With what I can only describe as unreal power, combined with a system that controls and visciously hits the enemy with the sole intention of visciously causing them concussion/maximum damage and/or breaking limbs, the risks don´t seem that high.


I know of good kung fu schools with students who (with no fight records) who would be able to defend themselves or fight quite well on the street.

You tell that to the many knuckleheads who post here as "kung fu" experts.


There is alot more to this then you know...but i think this is something you will either learn or never learn one day...and its not for me to explain.

I am not sure what you mean by that last remark. Suffice to say that there are a lot of secrets in kung fu which we ALL need to learn. You may have been exposed to some and I may have been exposed to others, but there are more, a lot more answers out there but one thing is for sure and that is that these secrets are not hiding in the local MMA gym.;)


you will find alot of sports competitions is as close as you will get.

I will stick to realistic sparring, thank you. This is not to say that sports competitions are not sometimes benefitial, just that they are not the beginning and the end in MA training.


One major benefit is being able to find people from other martial arts. you may realise the disadvantage of the habits you develop when only ever sparring with people that practise the same style as you do.

I see your point and it has been made here before but again I believe that if you practice your kung fu style in an authentic manner then you will learn what is needed to learn. After which you may wish or not wish to test what you have learnt against every MA known to man.




you do not need to wait till you have expert knowledge in your own style to test what you know.
You are probably right as one can fight using one´s style before one becomes an expert but having said that we all have our own preferences and ideas about how and when to test our knowledge.:)

[Hardwork108]

what?!? no classy dames on the forum? SAY IT AINT SO!!!

Some say that taai gihk yahn may be the exception, but I am not sure about the "classy" bit. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

Some say that taai gihk yahn may be the exception, but I am not sure about the "classy" bit. :D

so, the point of directing an insult in my direction is...?

[Hardwork108]

so, the point of directing an insult in my direction is...?

Sheesh! you can make jokes about my "mal functioning" urinary track and I can´t make an innocent joke about you? :mad: :D

[taai gihk yahn]

Sheesh! you can make jokes about my "mal functioning" urinary track and I can´t make an innocent joke about you? :mad: :D

if it were innocent it would be fine, but to quote Wesley, "We are men of action; lies do not become us."

of course, we all know that you are a liar but that's as may be...

[Mr Punch]

You guys that know me know my resume, its almost as long as my Johnson :DAnd I always thought you had some experience! :eek: :p :D

[Hardwork108]

if it were innocent it would be fine, but to quote Wesley, "We are men of action; lies do not become us."

I honestly say that it was a joke and not an insult, well maybe to all the dames out there, but not to you as I was just pulling your leg. You should relax a little.



of course, we all know

"We" again? I think that you keep very bad company and I don´t mean just your ego, Id and Anima but also Sanjuro_ronin and Ikfmdc (I still can´t believe that even you would list them as forum friends) and Kansuke, for gods sake!



that you are a liar but that's as may be...

That remark coming from the likes of you is actually funny and ironic in the light of the fact of I having exposed your lies (among other notable knuckleheads here) in the past including the ones in that stupid prank!

[Lucas]

And I always thought you had some experience! :eek: :p :D

well.....somebody had to. ;)

[Kansuke]

And the hardworking troll keeps up his 'hardwork.'


Why he bothers to expend so much energy on it....

[Hardwork108]

Will you guys Mr Punch and Lucas cut it out! You are only encouraging Sanjuro ronin to put a video clip of his "long" Johnson on YouTube (no doubt to add "credibility" to his "resume":rolleyes:).

[friday]

The student can have the meaning of the techniques explained to him as soon as he is performing them correctly while performing the form. This means that there is no point in teaching him applications if his stances are not correct and he is not delivering the strikes correctly.

He should not be visualizing any applications while he is performing his form incorrectly. Initially his MAIN focus should be in the correct performance of the movements.

I disagree with this. I think that a student will better perform the move if he/she understands the reasoning behind it. I would probably even suggest that in light sparring after each class that the students try to apply the techniques they learnt that day and the sifu would correct them if he sees any issues. But then on this - we can agree to disagree.


...Seriously speaking. I am against holding back if the student is worthy,dedicated and of GOOD CHARACTER. However not all students can be classified as worthy that means that in traditional schools there would be chosen disciples who would be taught everything while the rest would be taught the "standard" stuff.

The problem arises when the people who have not learned everything become "sifus" and then transfer their "knowledge" to the unknowing students. This scenario occurs because the said students decide to teach without their sifus´ permission or because the sifu gives them the permission to teach for financial reasons or just because he does not care less, knowing very well that the secrets of his given style are safe with him and his chosen disciples.

Is this right or wrong? The answer is "Yes".;)

hmmm...I think this is a common transmission process, however, people being people do you think if this principle of "worthy,dedicated and of GOOD CHARACTER" were diligently applied, there would be any kung fu today? The reality is inspite of the aspirations, kung fu has just as many good and bad people as any other part of the community and this applies to students and sifu. As my sifu said once - it is very difficult for a student to find a good sifu and very hard for a sifu to find a good student...



his experience serves to remind us all, specially the beginners that when we think we are ready for more or deeper instruction, we may well be mistaken.

this can be true sometimes...


I agree that without learning the applications of one´s forms one is doing nothing but dancing, however I truly believe that the student must be able to perform his form to a good level eg. with strong stances and solid and flowing techniques before he is taught the applications.

As I said before we can agree to disagree on this.



Of course I do!

great! we agree! :)


The answers may be found in the core style (assuming that some of the MMA-ists really practise kung fu as their core style) but they are not to be found "so readily". I would suggest that many people opt for MMA because the results can be achieved relatively quicker. Also nowadays people seem to have shorter attentions spans, not just regarding MA training but also cooking/eating, TV, music and etc.

If I work as a bouncer and need to use alot of restraint/submission/controlled throws/joint manipulation, etc etc rather than outright strikes should I train in a school that leaves this section or most of these 'secret' techniques for its 'advanced' students after say you train for 4-5 years and also after successfully going through the process of character and loyalty assessment decided on by one person, namely the sifu? doing MMA for some people maybe because it is more practical/efficient and effective relative to the amount of committed time devoted to practising and training. (this issue being the topic Ray Pina raised recently).


Furthermore it is much easier to find a good MMA school than a good and authentic kung fu school. Plus the popular (among some) belief that kung fu does not work or is "lacking", doesn´t not help the case either.

This in part due to the numerous vids of kung fu practitioners performances against BJJ, MMA, etc on youtube.
There are good KF schools around. I'm disappointed as to why they seem to be few and far between...



I assume from where the rest of WC came from and that is Shaolin Kung fu.



It is from before the popularity of BJJ.

Show us these techniques if you ever learn the form and are allowed to.



Probably. A better test would be a street fight, a real one.;) yes - have you ever had your skills street tested? I haven't.




With the right (kung fu) power the reliability increases.

With what I can only describe as unreal power, combined with a system that controls and visciously hits the enemy with the sole intention of visciously causing them concussion/maximum damage and/or breaking limbs, the risks don´t seem that high. if you ever come by my way you can try this on me.


I will stick to realistic sparring, thank you. This is not to say that sports competitions are not sometimes benefitial, just that they are not the beginning and the end in MA training. can you show me the sparring that you do?


I see your point and it has been made here before but again I believe that if you practice your kung fu style in an authentic manner then you will learn what is needed to learn. After which you may wish or not wish to test what you have learnt against every MA known to man.
can you outline what/how you practise kung fu in an authentic manner?
what you regard as authentic training. thx.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I always thought you had some experience! :eek: :p :D

LOL !
Well burned !

[Hardwork108]

I disagree with this. I think that a student will better perform the move if he/she understands the reasoning behind it. I would probably even suggest that in light sparring after each class that the students try to apply the techniques they learnt that day and the sifu would correct them if he sees any issues. But then on this - we can agree to disagree.


Another area that we would need to agree to disagree would be the "when" of the introduction of any kind of free sparring to the student. If you take a beginner and make him spar from day one then you will most probably (but not always, perhaps) find that he will be hopping around a la Bruce Lee or a boxer, etc.

Again, I believe that certain basics must be ingrainned into the student before he is taught application and the "application" of that application, but as I said before we can agree to disagree on this one as well.:)



hmmm...I think this is a common transmission process, however, people being people do you think if this principle of "worthy,dedicated and of GOOD CHARACTER" were diligently applied, there would be any kung fu today?

Yes there would be kung fu today, perhaps not as much but with better quality of instruction.


The reality is inspite of the aspirations, kung fu has just as many good and bad people as any other part of the community and this applies to students and sifu.

And that is perhaps because of the McKung fu phenomenom. I have been seen schools of kung fu where the sifus are very choosey about who they teach. The sifu in the none WC school of kung fu where I practiced in London even said that he did not want more than around 14 students as a higher number of students would prevent him from focusing on individual students and hence affect his teaching. This is the type of stuff I talk about when I talk about AUTHENTIC kung fu schools.



As my sifu said once - it is very difficult for a student to find a good sifu and very hard for a sifu to find a good student...

I agree not to disagree on this one.:)


As I said before we can agree to disagree on this.
:)



great! we agree! :)
:)



If I work as a bouncer and need to use alot of restraint/submission/controlled throws/joint manipulation, etc etc rather than outright strikes should I train in a school that leaves this section or most of these 'secret' techniques for its 'advanced' students after say you train for 4-5 years and also after successfully going through the process of character and loyalty assessment decided on by one person, namely the sifu? doing MMA for some people maybe because it is more practical/efficient and effective relative to the amount of committed time devoted to practising and training. (this issue being the topic Ray Pina raised recently).

Well we agree here. I am not against people who practice MMA even if I pull their legs (not in a take down sense:D) once in a while. What gets under my skin is when they make their uninformed comments regarding kung fu practice.

Furthermore, there is no denying that when one needs specialised sets of techiques perhaps for security/law enforcement work or even to compete for "medals" then one is better off practicing those specialised techniques outside the traditional mode of practice. That is what probable happens most of the time.



This in part due to the numerous vids of kung fu practitioners performances against BJJ, MMA, etc on youtube.
There are good KF schools around. I'm disappointed as to why they seem to be few and far between...
Well from my experience they are few and far between.



Show us these techniques if you ever learn the form and are allowed to.
Well I will be spending a short time in Brasil later on this year and of course I will be training with sifu. Who knows if I show enough improvements maybe he will go into the groundfighting aspects. Wether I can "show" them is another story.

Actually a couple of posters here have seen a bit of what I am talking about. Last year my sifu visited London and did a seminar on Siu Lam Wing Chun. I missed it myself as I was unfortunately out of the country on that weekend, but as I understand it he did address and explain the groundfighting and its application within the principles of Wing Chun.

If I remember correctly LoneTiger108 and LSWCTN1, both of whom post here were at the seminar. Maybe they can give you more info if they are reading this or maybe you can PM them.


yes - have you ever had your skills street tested? I haven't.
Just once. It is funny that I would attract trouble and fights a lot more before I started kung fu.:confused:



if you ever come by my way you can try this on me.

Firstly, I don`t have the full kung fu power (I am working on it though) and secondly why would I want to hurt you?:p


can you show me the sparring that you do?

How :confused:


can you outline what/how you practise kung fu in an authentic manner?
what you regard as authentic training. thx.

To cut a long story short. The authentic training encompasses the various aspects and levels of kung fu traning and not just what the student sees as "relevant", "practical", "functional" and etc.

This means primarily the emphasis is in creating the kung fu roots. Yes, long and painful stance training to help one to eventually "sink" naturally during practice and combat. This is an area of emphasis that is obviously lacking nowadays. One has just to look at some "kung fu" people sparring, while hopping around like boxers (if not jack rabbits) to appreciate how much.

The other area overlooked nowadays is the internal/chi kung training that contributes, among other things, to what some kung fu people call "relaxed power". Other benefits of this type of training include the enhancement of "listening" ability and general sensitivity.

Iron Palm training is part of the traditional approach in our school. This training is not about creating calluses or hardenning the hands (a popular belief among the knucklehead "kung fu experts" here). It is about creating heaviness in the hands and about creating the capability of delivering PENETRATIVE blows to the opponent. This training incorporates chi kung as well.

The Ip training includes hitting the sand bowl while sitting in a Shaolin (not wing chun) horse stance. There are other exercises as well.

Forms training is taken seriously as well with great attention to details including stances and the correct breathing.

The constant practice of the various types of chi sao, including Kum Na(grappling) chi sao eventually lead to contact sparring - San sao (free hands).

Conditioning exercises include Chin ups (on the bar); sit ups and leg raises; animal walking;stance work and other resistance training. No Weight training!

I think that you get the general idea from the above.:)

[TenTigers]

And that is perhaps because of the McKung fu phenomenom. I have been seen schools of kung fu where the sifus are very choosey about who they teach. The sifu in the none WC school of kung fu where I practiced in London even said that he did not want more than around 14 students as a higher number of students would prevent him from focusing on individual students and hence affect his teaching. This is the type of stuff I talk about when I talk about AUTHENTIC kung fu schools.


My SPM teacher is the same way. He feels that even five of us is cutting it close.

[Hardwork108]

My SPM teacher is the same way. He feels that even five of us is cutting it close.

Hats off to your SPM teacher and hats off to you for training with him.:)

Do you train the Chow Gar branch?

[TenTigers]

Hats off to your SPM teacher and hats off to you for training with him.:)

Do you train the Chow Gar branch?
Lum Wing Fay's Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai

[Hardwork108]

Lum Wing Fay's Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai

Thank you for the info.:)

Is there a site I can look at for more technical info on this branch of SPM?

[TenTigers]

Thank you for the info.:)

Is there a site I can look at for more technical info on this branch of SPM?

http://www.jooklummantis.com/jlm/index.asp

here's one. I think he has other links as well.

[Hardwork108]

http://www.jooklummantis.com/jlm/index.asp

here's one. I think he has other links as well.

Thanks again.:)

[Hardwork108]

it was my response, or rather the lack of words to describe my response to who mis understood forum postings can be. such as when hardwork thinks im kansuke's buddy because in a different thread i made a comment on how hardwork took kansuke's bait (implying he was baiting, you know like a troll ).

Did I read correctly? Did someone else refer to Kansuke as a troll? How dare you? Didn´t you know that the man is a wrestler? Didn´t you know that in a modern kung fu forum, filled with Know Nothing Knuckleheads, you are not allowed to refer to any wrestler as a troll? Didn`t you know that wrestlers grapple and groundfight?

You should have known that you can only make that statement about people who actually have trained authentic kung fu? Boy you are lost! Now you are going to get every p¡ss head knucklehead who posts here after your blood and guts.:rolleyes:


Well anyway, talking of baiting, what do you think Sanjuro is doing when he is referring to me in a negative manner while hiding behind the "ignore". Why don´t you call him a troll as well.

You also implied that I was a troll. Haven`t you read any of my posts on the subject of kung fu! or do you only focus on my arguments with the forum´s glorified kickboxers?

At least you were 50% right as when it comes to kansuke he is a real troll. Of course our "un troll" friend Sanjuro ( and taai gihk yahn) so far has missed that fact. Oh, how I "wish" I was a grappler.:rolleyes:


but sheesh, im a MMA guy and i didnt even know it. funny because i dont recall ever having been trained at any MMA gyms.
Maybe it is all in your "approach" and the company you keep.:D


personally, i never take any of this internet stuff seriously. its really mostly intertainment while im bored at work.

I am not surprised seeing the company you keep.


or just laugh my arse off at the rediculousness of any rediculousness i see.

So you have seen Sanjuro ronin´s YouTube videos as well? He breaks pieces of wood :eek: and you know, that just about completes his "kung fu resume"....:rolleyes:

HW108

[Mr Punch]

My SPM teacher is the same way. He feels that even five of us is cutting it close.My sifu was forced to leave his overseeing organisation for refusing to teach bigger classes: they wanted him to advertise, get shirts, get us to take sashes and get 20 plus students. He kept it to 8, and two of us he accepted as private students.

What was this thread about again?! Sanjuro's stubby? :D

[Lucas]

wow, you look past what is there sometimes I think. i dont remember calling you a troll.

you just need to calm down a little pal.

ive read your posts, and responded to a couple. some things you say i agree with and some I do not.

so you can pick this post apart as well and try to demonize me if you like, i dont care, its just childish

first of all, you dont know me, or who i keep company with. you also dont know my training, pretty obvious since you refer to me as a MMA guy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My sifu was forced to leave his overseeing organisation for refusing to teach bigger classes: they wanted him to advertise, get shirts, get us to take sashes and get 20 plus students. He kept it to 8, and two of us he accepted as private students.

What was this thread about again?! Sanjuro's stubby? :D

Hey now !!!
:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kiai biotches !!

[TenTigers]

he said, 'Stubby," not, "Chubby!":p

[sanjuro_ronin]

he said, 'Stubby," not, "Chubby!":p

Eat me Mantis boy !

[TenTigers]

Eat me Mantis boy !

funny, my Hung-Ga buddies have told me my Hung Kuen is getting "very buggy, lately!"
-(that's a good thing):cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

funny, my Hung-Ga buddies have told me my Hung Kuen is getting "very buggy, lately!"
-(that's a good thing):cool:

They probably just dislike getting PE fists all over the place.
Pansies.

[TenTigers]

it's like anything-when you train with a higher level instructor, the theories and concepts, and quality of movement will affect everything you do. I have seen Hung-Ga guys who started training in Tai-Chi suddenly develop better rooting, and more resiliency in their upper bodies. As long as it blends and doesn't clash with the style, it is assimilated into the fighter.
Hmm, I think we're back on the topic of MMA again...

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's like anything-when you train with a higher level instructor, the theories and concepts, and quality of movement will affect everything you do. I have seen Hung-Ga guys who started training in Tai-Chi suddenly develop better rooting, and more resiliency in their upper bodies. As long as it blends and doesn't clash with the style, it is assimilated into the fighter.
Hmm, I think we're back on the topic of MMA again...

Not surprising since there is nothing more traditional than cross training in other MA.

[Lucas]

Not surprising since there is nothing more traditional than cross training in other MA.

what about this? (http://www.kislakfoundation.org/millennium-exhibit/pics/downs/0398.jpg)

[TenTigers]

he said cross training, not cross dressing!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

he said cross training, not cross dressing!:eek:

Lucas gets confused sometimes, he is from Portland.

[Kansuke]

Not surprising since there is nothing more traditional than cross training in other MA.



Well, now we know we'll have to hear from 'hardwork' again...

[Lucas]

Lucas gets confused sometimes, he is from Portland.

:eek::eek:

how does me being from portland have anything to do with cross dressing.

;)

[Kansuke]

:eek::eek:

how does me being from portland have anything to do with cross dressing.

;)



You know what they say about Portland...

[lkfmdc]

You know what they say about Portland...

it is the land of entries ;)

[Lucas]

its pretty common to see people all over portland with bumper stickers that read; "keep portland wierd"

i think that sums it up nicely.

[Hardwork108]

it's like anything-when you train with a higher level instructor, the theories and concepts, and quality of movement will affect everything you do. I have seen Hung-Ga guys who started training in Tai-Chi suddenly develop better rooting, and more resiliency in their upper bodies. As long as it blends and doesn't clash with the style, it is assimilated into the fighter.
Hmm, I think we're back on the topic of MMA again...


The knuckleheads should read my emphasis.

By the way, Ten Tigers my Wing Chun sifu taught me some supplimentary tai chi (Yang) so as to help me improve my roots and for relaxation and flow during technical work. He would quiet often draw parallels between Wing Chun and Tai Chi (including comparisons and contrasts). :)

[Kansuke]

Did I read correctly? Did someone else refer to Kansuke as a troll? How dare you? Didn´t you know that the man is a wrestler? Didn´t you know that in a modern kung fu forum, filled with Know Nothing Knuckleheads, you are not allowed to refer to any wrestler as a troll? Didn`t you know that wrestlers grapple and groundfight?



How about you, 'hardwork?' Have you 'progressed' enough to start the super-advanced grappling of WC yet? Did you study grappling in the 'something' you trained in London that you couldn't tell anyone about? Please share some of your experience in grappling.











Or are you just going to keep up the same act that got your sorry ass banned last time?

[Hardwork108]

Or are you just going to keep up the same act that got your sorry ass banned last time?

:rolleyes:

You (and your knucklehead MMA buddies here) seem to forget that you Kansuke got banned too for doing exactly what you are doing now.

I do not post to you much nowadays but I just thought I should remind you and your "kung fu":rolleyes: friends who are so keen to advertise the fact that I was banned (whenever I show them up for the glorified kickboxers that they are), while conveniently "forgetting" to mention their grappler and troll friend Kansuke.

As the man said in another thread, GROW UP!

[Kansuke]

You didn't answer my question.

How about you, 'hardwork?' Have you 'progressed' enough to start the super-advanced grappling of WC yet? Did you study grappling in the 'something' you trained in London that you couldn't tell anyone about? Please share some of your experience in grappling.

[Hardwork108]

You didn't answer my question.

How about you, 'hardwork?' Have you 'progressed' enough to start the super-advanced grappling of WC yet? Did you study grappling in the 'something' you trained in London that you couldn't tell anyone about? Please share some of your experience in grappling.

I have already shared that info with Golden Arhat in this thread so go and look for it.

HW108

PS. GROW UP!

[lkfmdc]

Just to refresh everyone's memory

"Hardwork" has less than 2 years training by his own admission. A year and a half a wing chun instructor who has publically denounced him and refuted his posts and now wants nothing to do with him. A few months of a "secret" style he refuses to name :rolleyes:

He was temporarily banned already at least once (I think twice but don't remember).

Worst of all, he can't get past his one gimmick trolling of "I have real kung fu"... low quality troll ......

[Kansuke]

So why does a guy with very little experience himself feel compelled to constantly tell everyone who is or is not a "real kungfu man?" Less than two years training? Hell, I have about two years of training in kungfu and I certainly don't think I'm anyone's expert. If he was publically denounced by his teacher you'd think shame alone would make him keep his mouth shut.

And why would someone feel the need to 'hide' the style of something they are studying? To what end? That's just wierd, and makes me think he wasn't really studying anything but wanted to look more experienced than he is.

What the hell is wrong with this guy?

[Hardwork108]

"Hardwork" has less than 2 years training by his own admission.

Please provide a link to where I have made this admission. A real link and not something that you have misquoted or doctored please!


A year and a half a wing chun instructor who has publically denounced him and refuted his posts and now wants nothing to do with him.
Please provide links that prove that I have practiced a year and a half of Wing Chun and that I have been publicly denounced by my school.

You can´t can you....lol!


A few months of a "secret" style he refuses to name :rolleyes:

I have studied other styles besides Wing Chun and I don´t name them because my main style is Wing Chun and I don´t see any reasons for naming them.

I will add that they are not "secret styles"....LOL you simple man.


He was temporarily banned already at least once (I think twice but don't remember).
It was once and Taai gihk yahn has already mentioned this fact a few times. By the way do something about your "memory" as it seems to be failing you constantly in this forum. Or are you just a dishonest and a vile person?


Worst of all, he can't get past his one gimmick trolling of "I have real kung fu"... low quality troll ......
It is not a case of "I have real kung fu" it is all about the authentic trainin and the fact that I study authentic kung fu and you obviously don´t even if your teacher was famous, but then no teacher worth his salt is going to teach a vile character like yourself more than a few high kicks and some basic stuff (whatever it takes to make a village idiot knucklehead such as yourself happy).

Your eventual choice to officially become a kickboxer/MMA-ist after such authentic training, has shown all of us how much "kung fu" your teacher actually taught you lol.

You Ikfmdc are here to "sell" your school/business which is based on MMA and KICKBOXING and you will post any clap trap just so that people will see your forum signature and your sites and seminars.

For you your kickboxing/MMA school is just a business and you are here to promote it and perhaps link it to kung fu as a marketing ploy. People like me are a nightmare to you and all the Glorified Kickboxers here and hence your negative reaction.

So go ahead with your lies and dishonest statments. Keep on claiming untruths about me and my kung fu school. Keep on attributing statments to me that I have never made.

I am sure that Kansuke (who is eternally hanging from your b@lls) will "back" you up on everything you say. Who knows you might even get Sanjuro ronin who is hiding with his tail between his legs, behind the "ignore" button to come out momentarily make a snide statement.

Whatever happens I will still be practicing kung fu authentically while you guys are here to either show off your "kung fu":rolleyes: "knowledge":rolleyes: or in your case to make a quick buck from the latest Martial Arts Fad which is MMA.

I look forward to links that prove your statements above and again real proof please and not posts that you yourself have doctored.

[lkfmdc]

LMFAO

His "big achievement" is replacing "L" with "I"... wow, you're cool :rolleyes:

The fact was that you put the fact about less than two years of training on your profile, only to change it when you realized that revealing that you only had 2 years training revealed you to be the tool you are

The "basement boy" threads are around for people to read, where you alluded to secret training but refused to name in what style :rolleyes:

I know it's hard for you to accept, people who have been training longer than you have been alive, who know more than you'll ever hope to know, calling you out and showing you up

But you should be used to it by now. This is the THIRD FORUM you've visited, been exposed on and banned. Sadly, on this forum they brought you back, a real shame honestly

[lkfmdc]

Like I said

easy to dig up all the old basement boy threads and expose you (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=871240&postcount=67)

:D

[Kansuke]

Like I said

easy to dig up all the old basement boy threads and expose you (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=871240&postcount=67)

:D


Wow, that is a pretty clear denunciation all right. Does this 'hardwork' joker have no shame?

[Kansuke]

I have studied other styles besides Wing Chun and I don´t name them because my main style is Wing Chun and I don´t see any reasons for naming them.



Say, didn't I see you getting on people for not listing everything they've ever done in their profile? Are you a hypocrite or what?



And didn't you say in previous posts that you wouldn't 'reveal' this mystery art you study because of some comic-book fantasy of keeping it hidden so your foes would never know just what to expect from you? You changing your story now? Are you just a bold-faced liar?

[Hardwork108]

LMFAO

His "big achievement" is replacing "L" with "I"... wow, you're cool :rolleyes:

You "see" so much achievement in simple things. You really must live in an interesting world.


The fact was that you put the fact about less than two years of training on your profile, only to change it when you realized that revealing that you only had 2 years training revealed you to be the tool you are

Again more lies. So no links I gather? I thought not!


The "basement boy" threads are around for people to read, where you alluded to secret training but refused to name in what style :rolleyes:

I alluded to my training in my previous post. It was not "secret training" but then I suppose if I don´t tell you the style of kung fu that I was training then that would by definition make it a "secret", that is AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED!

And again my main style is Wing Chun which makes me more qualified to comment on it. See where I am coming from?


I know it's hard for you to accept, people who have been training longer than you have been alive, who know more than you'll ever hope to know, calling you out and showing you up

First of all, I am very well aware of the people who have been training for zillion years in a zillion MAs who are all over this site. What that makes them kung fu authorities where in some cases they can´t make a single post without enlightening us about the BJJ, groung fighting, MMA etc.

One can´t start a single thread without out it changing from a simple selfdefense or kung fu scenario into an MMA contest. Are these your "experts".

I know from interacting with these people that they have no idea about the kung fu internal, some don´t even know that they exist! Others don´t see the significance of kung fu roots and etc, and etc.

Conclusion: Many years of experience yes but in WHAT?

What I mean is that many of the people that you mention here are MMA-ists with some "background" in "kung fu". Their expertise is NOT in kung fu! it is in MMA. No arguments from me there either. The fact is most of them would not know real kung fu if it fell on them!

Again you say many years of experience. And I say in WHAT?

So that begs the question, what was I shown up for and by whom and as always don´t forget to provide a link as proof!!!


This is the THIRD FORUM you've visited, been exposed on and banned.

More lies to discredit me.

Please can you tell us which forums I was exposed in, by whom!

I have touched a nerve with lkfmdc. You don´t want me around these forums. Since I "met" you in this forum you have done nothing but to discredit me and my traditional approach to training kung fu.

You have lied again and again without providing a single shred of evidence to back your untruthful and slanderous claims.

You are a dishonest and a vile character and you are only posting here to sell your MMA training program and having people like me post here in the forum is not good for your business, is it?

While all your MMA sympthizers Sanjuro ronin, taai gihk yahn, kansuke (eternally hanging from your b@lls) etc., have played along.



Sadly, on this forum they brought you back, a real shame honestly

It is funny and Ironic that a vile and dishonest person such as yourself would even dare to use the word "honesty".

[lkfmdc]

"hardwork" was banned on two other forums and caught in lies in both. His nonsense caught the attention of a student of the sifu he CLAIMED to represent and resulted in the following statement



The person or persons posting are not students of sifu Andria Pivcevic and do not speak for him. The claims made are not representative of the methods nor how sifu presents himself. We are concerned and ask why this person is posting incorrectly about sifu. We want people to be aware that he has nothing to do with us.


It's a shame that only on this forum is he allowed to return to create the same nonsense after already being banned before :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

And didn't you say in previous posts that you wouldn't 'reveal' this mystery art you study because of some comic-book fantasy of keeping it hidden so your foes would never know just what to expect from you? You changing your story now? Are you just a bold-faced liar?

I`ll just answer this just to keep this forum´s village idiot happy.

Any fighting knowledge that is kept hidden from a potential enemy can be of a "surprise" element. For example if somebody attacks you in the street but they have no idea that you are a skillful wrestler (which many here assume that you are) then he will be in for a surprise. Don´t you agree?

So what I said in my previous post, even if it is not as serious a statement that you knuckleheads think, stands!

Now go back to hanging from lkfmdc´s b@lls ( I am beginning to think that you were a bat in a past life).

[lkfmdc]

The person or persons posting are not students of sifu Andria Pivcevic and do not speak for him. The claims made are not representative of the methods nor how sifu presents himself. We are concerned and ask why this person is posting incorrectly about sifu. We want people to be aware that he has nothing to do with us.


that statment is from "hardwork" teacher after he was banned on two other forums and caught in lies in both.

It's a shame that only on this forum is he allowed to return to create the same nonsense after already being banned before :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Like I said

easy to dig up all the old basement boy threads and expose you (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=871240&postcount=67)

:D

Your smile tells it all.

I did mention that you should provide authentic links and not quotes doctored by your good self.

You really have problems when it comes to honest posting. I hope your abilities as a kickboxing instructor are better than your abilities as an honest poster.

[Hardwork108]

"hardwork" was banned on two other forums and caught in lies in both. His nonsense caught the attention of a student of the sifu he CLAIMED to represent and resulted in the following statement



It's a shame that only on this forum is he allowed to return to create the same nonsense after already being banned before :rolleyes:


You really think that people here are stupid enough to fall for your regurgitated lies time and again? I mean people other than glorified punchdrunk kickboxers such as yourself?

You keep repeating the lies. I am beginning to think that you have politicians in your family (or is it a foster family?).

[lkfmdc]

people will follow the links, read the posts, including YOURS, and see the truth. They'll also laugh out loud at your humiliation. Serioulsy, you must enjoy it, taking a beating. In the two threads I linked to, like 25 guys piled ontop of you, and those are just TWO of the MANY threads....

Maybe you like guys piling ontop of you? :eek:

[Hardwork108]

that statment is from "hardwork" teacher after he was banned on two other forums and caught in lies in both.

We are still waiting for you to enlighten us about the forums from which I was supposedly banned. Or are you just going to repeat the lies?

[Mr Punch]

Your smile tells it all.

I did mention that you should provide authentic links and not quotes doctored by your good self. What did he change? Is that your teacher? Was that about you? Is your teacher Andria Pivcevic?

Not weighing in on either side here (you know how I feel about you, darling!)... but this spot of intrigue is the most interesting thing to have happened today at this boring day of work!

[Hardwork108]

people will follow the links, read the posts, including YOURS, and see the truth. They'll also laugh out loud at your humiliation. Serioulsy, you must enjoy it, taking a beating. In the two threads I linked to, like 25 guys piled ontop of you, and those are just TWO of the MANY threads....

I have news for you. I have never taken a beating in any thread. People like you have tried many times but have always ended up with their proverbial thumbs up their proverbial butts.




Maybe you like guys piling ontop of you? :eek:

Hey you are the one who practices BJJ and ground fighting, yet you have the audacity to accuse me of liking guys piling up on me???

[Mr Punch]

people will follow the links, read the posts, including YOURS, and see the truth. They'll also laugh out loud at your humiliation. Serioulsy, you must enjoy it, taking a beating. In the two threads I linked to, like 25 guys piled ontop of you, and those are just TWO of the MANY threads....

Maybe you like guys piling ontop of you? :eek:The bullshido link from the denouncement post you linked is dead.

[Hardwork108]

What did he change?
The whole quote is false. Lkfmdc wrote that quote just after his other prank about me being a nazi anti-semetic fell around his ears.



Is that your teacher? Was that about you? Is your teacher Andria Pivcevic?

Check your PM.


Not weighing in on either side here (you know how I feel about you, darling!)... but this spot of intrigue is the most interesting thing to have happened today at this boring day of work!

Well why get bored. I mean every time I am bored I find a post by Kansuke to laugh at and cheer myself up.:D

[lkfmdc]

He was "chinese fist" on bullshido before he was banned

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17401

Long thread but around page 50 something you'll find one of Andria's real students call him out on it! :D

[Kansuke]

Any fighting knowledge that is kept hidden from a potential enemy can be of a "surprise" element. For example if somebody attacks you in the street but they have no idea that you are a skillful wrestler (which many here assume that you are) then he will be in for a surprise. Don´t you agree?




A) That's not what you just said. Remember "it's not my main art so I don't feel the need" and all that crap? Changing your story back to the original joke?

B) Do you really think that if you got into a situation (unlikely since you never leave the security of your momma's basement) that the person or persons you have to deal with will have 'studied up' on you from this forum? "Hey, you're that 'hardwork' ******* from kungfumagazineonline! I know everything you're going to do and have a detailed plan to counter you!" Do you really live in such a comic book fantasy land?

C) A joker like you could know anything from my favorite color to my mother-in-law's shoe size and it wouldn't do a **** thing about the fact that I would plant your pea head into the pavement.

[Hardwork108]

He was "chinese fist" on bullshido before he was banned

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17401

Long thread but around page 50 something you'll find one of Andria's real students call him out on it! :D

I was never banned form bullshido and you keep lying!!!:rolleyes:

I really hope that people actually read the whole thread and see that your accusations are just lies!

Having said that I know that you are counting at the fact that most people will not bother to read the whole link and will only "see" what you want them to see. I know your game.

By the way, this is the same link that Sanjuro ronin accuses me of claiming that my sifu beat famous Bjj people including the Gracies. Well if you read carefully then you will see that Sanjuro is another liar.

What is it with MMA schools anyway? Do get discounts if you are dishonest pieces of vile???

[lkfmdc]

here is you talking crap

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=659702&postcount=113

this is one of hte posts your sifu specifically said was a fabrication and that he was not responsible for your lies and poor attitude

and lie all you want, we know you were banned there .... :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Mr Punch,

I you are reading the bullshido thread then please tell us if you see my sifu`s real student "calling me out" on anything I may have said.

lkfmdc, you are a liar and your stupid games are reflecting badly not only on your forum persona but on your MA school as well. So go and hold Kansuke´s hand and try growing up together.;)

[lkfmdc]

You were banned on Bullshido

After your posts on Bullshido, your so-called sifu disowned you, said what you posted were lies and said he was not responsible for your actions

Just found out you were on "kareteforums.com" :rolleyes: Apparently got banned there also... thanks for the PM's from all the people who "love" hardwork so much ;)

[Hardwork108]

:rolleyes:
here is you talking crap

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=659702&postcount=113

this is one of hte posts your sifu specifically said was a fabrication and that he was not responsible for your lies and poor attitude

and lie all you want, we know you were banned there .... :rolleyes:

lkfmdc, wow that post was so controvercial. I mean who has heard of a kung fu sifu fights when challenged? Maybe you haven´t , but then that makes your kung fu history or as our friend Sanjuro would put it "resume":rolleyes: even dodgier.

By the way, I was never banned from bullshido. That is another lie that you have instigated.

I don´t know if anyone is ever going to take anything you say seriously after today....(not that many did anyway after your last prank) LOL.

[Hardwork108]

You were banned on Bullshido

After your posts on Bullshido, your so-called sifu disowned you, said what you posted were lies and said he was not responsible for your actions

Just found out you were on "kareteforums.com" :rolleyes: Apparently got banned there also... thanks for the PM's from all the people who "love" hardwork so much ;)

keep selling the lies.:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc, wow that post was so controvercial.



First, look into night school, maybe ESL, learn to spell :rolleyes:

Second, you made wild claims about your sifu beating Gracies, etc, being this "bad ass", only to have your so called sifu say he doesn't challenge people, those fights never happened, that you are a liar and that he disowned you

You've been smacked in the head with this several times, you try and deny it, never notice the forum laughing at you, come back for more humiliation.

You're a clown, no one here takes you seriously. I have a few spare minutes and so I'm lashing you for fun, and you'll be banned again soon enough anyway

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread needs to die, its been corrupted beyond all hope.
Not even an exorsist than save it now.


But **** it, I will try !!!

[Mr Punch]

****, Sanjuro, you killed it deader, she's horrible!

[sanjuro_ronin]

****, Sanjuro, you killed it deader, she's horrible!

You say that because you know she will break you !!

[Mr Punch]

You say that because you know she will break you !!Or is that because she's a horse?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or is that because she's a horse?

Perv, going after horses, you freak !

[Hardwork108]

First, look into night school, maybe ESL, learn to spell :rolleyes:

I´ll learn English when you decide to "learn" a little about morality and truthfulness.


Second, you made wild claims about your sifu beating Gracies, etc, being this "bad ass", only to have your so called sifu say he doesn't challenge people, those fights never happened, that you are a liar and that he disowned you

Can you provide proof for your claims? Of course not. You are just a liar and of low moral standing. You are here just to sell your Kickboxing/MMA school under a "kung fu" banner.


You've been smacked in the head with this several times, you try and deny it, never notice the forum laughing at you, come back for more humiliation.

The only person laughing here is me.:D

Keep on digging that hole so that even your kickboxing students will give up on the remenants of your sanity.


You're a clown, no one here takes you seriously. I have a few spare minutes and so I'm lashing you for fun, and you'll be banned again soon enough anyway

Well you should take your "few minutes" and train (instead of spewing out LIES all over the place) and perhaps you can get rid of that chubbiness. What the world doesn´t need is a fat kickboxer....LOL.