Why does Hung Ga do the index finger salute?

[diego]

pakua and hsing yi tell you to stare at the fingernail so you can see around you...

http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2006/pdfs/112.pdf

the Extensor Indicis is involved in the extension of the wrist and index finger, now if you google your map you will see it drawn as a bulge below the bump on your wrist on the knife hand side and it extends down like a chi tendon to the finger tip. now, when you do the pakua hand or the hung ga salute you feel the blood fill up along the line to the bulge... why does kung fu do it?

[TenTigers]

It was asecret handsign used by the Ming loyalists to identify each other when they were fighting against the Ching invaders.
"If all the Han people would raise but one finger, we could restore the Ming to power again."
It also is used to strengthen the bridge, it is a claw hand to grip with, it can be used to strike points as well.

[kfman5F]

One Ming can defeat 1,000 Chings!

[PM]

interesting discusion about "one finger bridge hand" (yat ji kiu sau) here:

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=594

and here:

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=492

[taai gihk yahn]

I have heard that there may also be a connection to the {relatively) old yi jin jing posture of Bending Bow to Shoot Hawk (http://users.erols.com/dantao/dantao3.html), at least in terms of the often "qigong"-like utilization of the move in the forms (slow tension extending); considering the alleged Shaolin origins of Hung, that may not be too much of a stretch...

[Infrazael]

One Ming can defeat 1,000 Chings!

Really now. :rolleyes:

[diego]

I have heard that there may also be a connection to the {relatively) old yi jin jing posture of Bending Bow to Shoot Hawk, at least in terms of the often "qigong"-like utilization of the move in the forms (slow tension extending); considering the alleged Shaolin origins of Hung, that may not be too much of a stretch...

it's interesting that you only really see it in Hung Gar, but when you go to the North they use a similar bridge as the main focus...in sun lu tang's hsing yi book he used the palm down posture for fighting but uses the palm facing front while you stare at the index finger for chi development. I wonder if the internal arts were inspired by the YJJ bridges?.

[taai gihk yahn]

it's interesting that you only really see it in Hung Gar, but when you go to the North they use a similar bridge as the main focus...in sun lu tang's hsing yi book he used the palm down posture for fighting but uses the palm facing front while you stare at the index finger for chi development. I wonder if the internal arts were inspired by the YJJ bridges?.

that's a very interesting observation and good question;

my (well, obviously not just me) general belief is that much (most?) of YJJ is derived from yogic practice - although certainly it was "sinocized" to a significant degree (e.g. - the Taoist influence)

I would have to look at SLT's book to be sure of exactly what you describe; as far as staring at the finger for "qi" development, classically one would supposedly see "smoke" rising from the finger when one had reached a sufficient level of mastery...

[GeneChing]

As a Ching, I resent that. :rolleyes:

We did a comparative piece on Bridge Hand titled (strangely enough) Bridge Hand in our 2006 May/June: Hung Ga - Wong Fei Hung Collector's Issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=650).

"Bending Bow to Shoot Hawk" or as I usually translate it "Draw the bow to slay the vulture" is not a yijinjing (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-hq002.html) posture. It's from baduanjin (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-hq004.html), a.k.a. 8 section brocade.

[taai gihk yahn]

"Bending Bow to Shoot Hawk" or as I usually translate it "Draw the bow to slay the vulture" is not a yijinjing (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-hq002.html) posture. It's from baduanjin (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-hq004.html), a.k.a. 8 section brocade.
ah, but where did baduajin come from...

[GeneChing]

It's unlikely that baduanjin (http://www.martialartsmart.net/prjt004.html) came from yijinjing (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-bj005.html) if that's where you're going with that. Most scholars theorize that it was the other way around.

[taai gihk yahn]

It's unlikely that baduanjin (http://www.martialartsmart.net/prjt004.html) came from yijinjing (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-bj005.html) if that's where you're going with that. Most scholars theorize that it was the other way around.

my understanding, through my sifu (http://users.erols.com/dantao/dantao3.html), is that BDJ is like "YJJ-lite"; but I can double check that...

[Shaolindynasty]

We also do it in our choy lay fut form "dai kau da kuen" and our lama form "lohan kuen". The way it was explained to me(other than a hand signal) was it was used to build tension to strengthen the forearm or "bridge".

hung, choy lay fut and lama are all very close and possibly related styles. As far as trying to link the technique with other styles via a "shaolin" connection, most of what is said about shaolin is legend so..........:confused:

[diego]

my understanding, through my sifu (http://users.erols.com/dantao/dantao3.html), is that BDJ is like "YJJ-lite"; but I can double check that...

Very interesting!. Thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread:D I'm on a mission to find out how many popular drills are out there using this vulture shooting key finger...a dirty brothel joke just popped up in my head...

In Franky Lau's you tube page you see them train all the time walking the horse pull back at crown and then down to chamber and press vulture finger forward...they'll walk around the whole room just doing that breathing. very cool

I have quite a few anatomy and fitness texts, been digesting them all of 2008 to now and I'm really interested in finding out what I can about CMA in the olden days and the general populaces knowledge of physical fitness from a P.E. and a streetfighting application based framework...like in the 70's and 80's arnold told you to do situps as a ab exercise, now in 2000 he'll tell you it's not a ab exerise it works the hips it's safer to do crunches at beginner level. Chinese have some of the illest dances in their fighting forms so I know there is something to their awareness of mind and body and medical study. as I read more yall an def' expect some more inquiries on the ancient methods, the old school ways, mode of thought and all of that!.

[banditshaw]

While reading this thread(good thread by the way) I remembered a really interesting thread at DList that also touched on the one finger Kiu Sau.

I actually found the link.

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/19640-hung-gar-move-point-central-plain.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why does Hung Ga do the index finger salute?

because the middle finger salute was taken already by "fungulayou-jtsu".

[AJM]

because the middle finger salute was taken already by "fungulayou-jtsu".
Naw. Middle finger is an English archery salute. In fungulayou-jtsu the middle finger is given before running away crying and surrendering. Of course to be traditional you will have to leave all your gear in the desert.:D

[bawang]

It was asecret handsign used by the Ming loyalists to identify each other when they were fighting against the Ching invaders.
"If all the Han people would raise but one finger, we could restore the Ming to power again."
It also is used to strengthen the bridge, it is a claw hand to grip with, it can be used to strike points as well.

NOOOOOOOOOO DONT TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THE SUPER DUPER SECRET HAND SIGNAL!!!!!! :(

now i must destroy you!!!
where you live d00d?

[diego]

While reading this thread(good thread by the way) I remembered a really interesting thread at DList that also touched on the one finger Kiu Sau.

I actually found the link.

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/19640-hung-gar-move-point-central-plain.html

"
Structurally, you can test the strength of this particular hand posture by doing some pull ups. You can lift your index finger and you can still maintain your grip, but if you mess with the last three fingers, you'll lose your grip. This particular structure, even though it might not seem like it, is also very important for grips while grappling, especially when you have to do some "wardrobe work", and actually grab onto some clothing material. The idea is to understand the use of the forefinger, and more importantly, the flexibility that it lends to the wrist. This requires one to look at the hand posture three dimensionally, and of course go beyond forms. In reality, you'd be taught the function of the shape way before you ever saw the form, at least within a traditional setting. Nowadays, this isn't the case. But, anyway...

The cultural aspects, well, as my Sifu says, "It is no longer a secret, the Ching's lost the war! So the significance is no longer relevant." You can go into various things with the symbolism of the fingers, and how they can mean a specific date in history, actual members of a particular tong, a sigil of brotherhood, etc. However, philosophically, this particular hand posture has a long history which can be traced all the way back to India, with its older use as a mudra."quote from illusionfist in that thread...

I think the best thing to do if one wants to understand why these hands are so popular...you have mantis hook hand with the index straight, you got "point at central palm" hand, and you got the two finger tai chi sword hand otherwise used as the dragon claw poking and tearing with the index and middle (salute SR) :D:eek::confused::p I think the best bet to understand the idea behind these hands is to look at the farm tools used throughout the generations. Look at the dates behind the legends and then research what type of work was being done around those times...how does living in tibet inflluence you kicking footwork oppossed to living in india...I imagine hand to hand kung fu for a soldier would use the grab and hitting strategy needed when holding a sword and shield, wheras a farmers hand to hand kung fu would be more singular spear play being the most fighting they get is while hunting... I'm really interested in the fitness of killing...

[Bernard]

Anyone noticed that the reverse grip for the butterfly swords kinda resembles the finger salute?

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/135/e213d9c4eb6845bfb8beec8b8a3fb5ef/l.jpg

[Golden Arms]

The way several of the weapons are handled can serve to strengthen the index finger used in the 1 finger kiu sau.

[David Jamieson]

An identifying hand symbol.

I don't think it has much in the way of martial application.
If there is, I would like to see it applied and be shown the consistency of the ability to apply it by virtue of design and function.

Otherwise, I will continue to understand it as a hand sign that identified Ming and symbolized their unity in their rebellion.

I could be wrong. We can always be wrong. It is our right! :-)

[hskwarrior]

Otherwise, I will continue to understand it as a hand sign that identified Ming and symbolized their unity in their rebellion.

that hand signal is a modification of the Hung Society hand signal signifying a certain individuals birth or death date.....that slips my mind at the moment.

[Subitai]

because the middle finger salute was taken already by "fungulayou-jtsu".



AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAAHHAHAHAHAH

Dude, I was taking a drink when I read that...and it's comedic value hit me just at the right moment. Oh man I fell out my chair for some reason.

:D

[omarthefish]

...in sun lu tang's hsing yi book he used the palm down posture for fighting but uses the palm facing front while you stare at the index finger for chi development. I wonder if the internal arts were inspired by the YJJ bridges?.

No. Not at the index finger. You look out through the tiger's mouth.

[jdhowland]

No. Not at the index finger. You look out through the tiger's mouth.

Yup. Hop Gar does this as well.

The question is...who started the trend? I think we know its meaning in the patriotic societies, but why does it show up elsewhere?

[bawang]

Yup. Hop Gar does this as well.

The question is...who started the trend? I think we know its meaning in the patriotic societies, but why does it show up elsewhere?

buddhist influenced gang signs was started by white lotus.

[Neeros]

ah, but where did baduajin come from...

The first eight of the eighteen lohan hands.

According to the tradition the Bodhidharma transmitted the 18 lohan hands, sinew metamorphosis, and skills of bone marrow cleansing.

[specialed]

It's pure B/S and means absolutely nothing.

Sorry. That's the truth.
Make al the hand signs you want, none of them will make you a better fighter, martial artist, or person.

Total baloney.

[Snipsky]

It's pure B/S and means absolutely nothing.

Sorry. That's the truth.
Make al the hand signs you want, none of them will make you a better fighter, martial artist, or person.

Total baloney.

did anyone say to you "this will make you a better fighter" ? i confuse. a person like you that has no idea why that hand signal was designed for is expected to make idiotic comments like that. too bad fa you. sad that the only thing you know how to do is fight. you can't lion dance, you cant do forms, you can't drum, you can't do weapons.

thats pretty sad that all you know how to do is fight. how many UFC or Dragonhouse MMA have you won? who are you and how do we know you can fight?

if i were you i'd feel pretty jipped and waste all my years

[Bernard]

Someone mentioned the index finger salute may be a buddhist hand symbol:

http://www.dharmasculpture.com/images/2b6d.JPG

Not sure, but I think its called a tarjani mudra which is a "threat, warning. The extended index finger is pointed at the opponent, which is ignorance or delusion and the antidote is wakefulness or mindfulness."

[hskwarrior]

I know A LOT of people want to understand that signal as martial technique but its not. out of just not knowing, people overlook the underlying reality that some of the hands in southern gung fu were also used as secret signals, no martial value....but to members of the fraternity........they know.