using high kick in traditional kung fu

[Hitman]

Dear all,

In traditional kung fu the use of high kick is not encouraged due to the exposure of the groin to a counter attack. Therefore, when using high kick to the head, there is always a hand in front of the groin, while you perform the kick. Let assume that you are fighting in a life and death situation against a very fast and very powerful opponent, who can kill with one punch. If you do a round house kick to his head, while one of your hands is placed in front of your groin. He side stepped and immediately punch your groin, before you can put your foot on the ground. His punch will hit your hand and damage it. Your hand will most likely be forced to move backward and hit your own groin. The pain on your groin may not be as painful as the result of the direct attack, but it will still hurt you. You hand is now too damaged to be use in the fight. Since you have one weapon less to defence yourself, you will lose the fight and die. I know that having your hand in front of your groin is better than not having it, but the risk of it being damaged is too great.

According to one of the boxing books written about Rocky Marciano's life. Rocky Marciano used to hit his opponents' forearms during boxing matches. If they happened to use them to shield their faces from his attacks. Eventually, they would lower their hands due to the pain they received from his punches. This allowed Rocky to punch into their faces and bodies instead.


My questions are:

1) Why deliberately sacrifice one of your hands (using it as a shield), if you can not run away after receiving a powerful blow to your groin from your own hand?

I do not think an injured person can run very far or very quickly. However, I can be wrong.



2) Are there some secret moves that prevent your hand or groin getting hit while preforming a high kick?





Thank you very much

[MasterKiller]

Since when does CMA advocate sticking a hand in front of your groin during high kicks?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since when does CMA advocate sticking a hand in front of your groin during high kicks?

I saw a movie once.
Oh and saw a picture of a monk doing it too !
:p

[David Jamieson]

In traditional kung fu the use of high kick is not encouraged due to the exposure of the groin to a counter attack. Therefore, when using high kick to the head, there is always a hand in front of the groin, while you perform the kick.

This is not correct or true of many styles. As a blanket statement about tcma, it is wrong.


Let assume that you are fighting in a life and death situation against a very fast and very powerful opponent, who can kill with one punch.

Am I to assume as well that I am an insect or tiny mammal or perhaps a goldfish?


If you do a round house kick to his head, while one of your hands is placed in front of your groin. He side stepped and immediately punch your groin, before you can put your foot on the ground. His punch will hit your hand and damage it. Your hand will most likely be forced to move backward and hit your own groin. The pain on your groin may not be as painful as the result of the direct attack, but it will still hurt you.

well when you put it that way, and sort out all those variables like that, I think I'll never use a roundhouse kick while covering my groin ever again!


You hand is now too damaged to be use in the fight. Since you have one weapon less to defence yourself, you will lose the fight and die.

Oh dear!


I know that having your hand in front of your groin is better than not having it, but the risk of it being damaged is too great.

Will I go blind though?


According to one of the boxing books written about Rocky Marciano's life. Rocky Marciano used to hit his opponents' forearms during boxing matches. If they happened to use them to shield their faces from his attacks. Eventually, they would lower their hands due to the pain they received from his punches. This allowed Rocky to punch into their faces and bodies instead.

If only Rocky had learned that "one punch and you're dead" method, he could've saved a lot of time.


1) Why deliberately sacrifice one of your hands (using it as a shield), if you can not run away after receiving a powerful blow to your groin from your own hand? I guess maybe it's hard to kick with both hands cupping your berries?


I do not think an injured person can run very far or very quickly. However, I can be wrong. Yes you can!


2) Are there some secret moves that prevent your hand or groin getting hit while preforming a high kick?

speed? accuracy? strength? ability to actually kick and transmit force?
Or, youcould chant wololo 300 times before every encounter and while cupping the berries and kicking.


Thank you very much

You're most welcome! :)

[Exadon]

I just started in kungfu, but we were trained , when doing a round house kick (or anything for that matter) to always keep our arms protecting our face. Our arms are in front of us in a 90 degree angle, and our bodies face a 45 degree angle.

[Reverend Tap]

I just started in kungfu, but we were trained , when doing a round house kick (or anything for that matter) to always keep our arms protecting our face. Are arms are in front of us in a 90 degree angle, and our bodies face a 45 degree angle.

Yeah, I've always been taught to keep the face protected too. Cupping your groin while kicking seems like a really good way to get punched in the nose.

[Lucas]

generally, in regards to high kicks, ive always been of the mind NOT to throw them unless i feel i have a good chance of connecting. there are many factors involved in being able to determine what you feel your success might be with something like a high kick, such as cadence(sp), distance, fatigue, injuries, and so on.

after fighting someone for a couple of minutes, you have a pretty good base to decide what you feel your chances are against someone, over all. unless they are of course holding back to draw you out.

personally, i dont like throwing high kicks anyway. i can, but i dont feel as safe with one leg above my waist, while standing on only one leg. while a kick is relatively fast, when i do high kicks in sparring i always feel to succeptable to take downs, sweeps, shoves, leg kicks, or what have you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hmmm, a thread about groin cupping...interesting indeed.
Sure this isn't a grappling forum ?

[Lucas]

you crack me up dude. just dont ever talk about cupping my groin again! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

you crack me up dude. just dont ever talk about cupping my groin again! :eek:

What are you saving up to be? Jewish?
:p

[Lucas]

LOL!!!!!

you got me on that one dude, no comeback here :eek:

[IronWeasel]

I've seen the downward palm block while kicking in a few forms. We practice foreward kicks with blocks too.



Let's see...in this scenario if I don't block my groin, then the powerful man will destroy it with one punch. If I DO block it, then I'm injured and he kills me.

Clearly the only answer here is to cup HIS groin and try to make friends.:eek:

[Lucas]

its definately an 'on' day for the KFM humor.

its pretty common to see the downward blocking/warding in many kungfu styles during forms. ive never seen this as an atempt to 'shield' the groin for any prolonged period of time, (i definately would never 'cup' my groin) but rather as an adjustment during combat to protect your family jewels. a quick block, then pulled back to the ready. the downward block is ok for, say, a front kick, but i prefer to adjust my hips and deflect/block with my thigh. or raise my leg slightly for the same effect.

there was this one guy who just always had to go for groin shots. i dont think he meant to, but if you wernt careful, you got kicked in the nuts. sparring him became second nature to protect my future generations.

[RisingCrane]

I've seen that technique used very effectively here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IVYkdFTeVtc

[Lucas]

I've seen that technique used very effectively here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IVYkdFTeVtc

lol that vids great. its got to be the funniest thai boxing match ive ever seen.

[golden arhat]

youtube cro cop


high kicks ftw

[huolung]

I've always been taught that high kicks were generally more for practice. According to Dr. Yang for instance crescent kicks (or inside/outside sweeps) are erroneously believed to be aimed at the face. Instead they are meant to hit the wrists or forearm of an assailant attacking with a weapon. Other than that they are executed much lower in order to damage the opponent's knee, or otherwise destroy his rooting. Kicks are generally trained high to develop speed, power, and balance but are reserved (more generally as this is not ALWAYS the case) for knees, shins/ankles, groin, and sometimes the solar plexus in actual combat. The hands protect the groin from counter attacks from kicks as kicks should (once again generally speaking) be used a middle to long range as opposed to short. But that is what I was taught for basic Longfist strategy, and so I understand this may not be true for everyone.


Namaste

[TaichiMantis]

Whew! Glad I don't have to worry about protecting my groin on my high kicks....uh...er...unless someone is trying to insert their foot.:rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

just kick fast, strong, and hit your target. no need to worry then. ;)

[lkfmdc]

According to Dr. Yang for instance crescent kicks (or inside/outside sweeps) are erroneously believed to be aimed at the face. Instead they are meant to hit the wrists or forearm of an assailant attacking with a weapon.



Ah, yes, to defend against the knife, crescent kick it out of his hand, ah, yes :rolleyes:

[huolung]

Whew! Glad I don't have to worry about protecting my groin on my high kicks....uh...er...unless someone is trying to insert their foot.:rolleyes:

I believe the point was that it's really kind of impractical to kick HIGH in a real fight... Sorry you were unable to comprehend... I thought the language was simple enough...:confused:

[TenTigers]

high kicks do many things-they train your feet to be as easy to use as your hands.
"Arms like legs, legs like arms" If you can kick to the head, you can kick to the groin twice as fast. It trains the body. The way to develop your Gung-Fu is to develop total mastery over your body (and mind). Try to create the perfect vehicle. Strength, flexibility, coordination, technique. You cannot expect a beat up rustbucket to race in the LeMans. You need a fine tuned machine, like a Ferrari.

Besides, if the opportunity presents itself, don't you want the skills to be able to take it?

Not only that, but if you don't train the kick, you won't be able to defend against it. You won't know how to use it, set it up, and make it effective, so you will not be able to defend against those who can. These are the people who will get KO'd by them.

[Lucas]

listen to the fight commentary in a lot of cage fights where the guys land high kicks. Cung Le comes to mind of course. From listening to the fight commentators, you would think that some of these guys had never heard of a high kick.

and the guys getting messed up by them in the matches, likely are not very profecient with a large range of kicking techniques.

its always going to be give and take with what you spend your time on in training, but i think its wise and well worth the time to explore your full range of kicking abilities.

[TaichiMantis]

The ones that pull it off with success have a quick recoil. Most people leave their leg out too long and it is easy to steal their center and dump them.

[AJM]

I've only met one person that could succesfully execute a high kick to the head without it getting intercepted by a skilled opponent. I only practice it as an exercise. I do keep a hand in proximity to my groin when I kick.

[Shaolinlueb]

high kicks do many things-they train your feet to be as easy to use as your hands.
"Arms like legs, legs like arms" If you can kick to the head, you can kick to the groin twice as fast. It trains the body. The way to develop your Gung-Fu is to develop total mastery over your body (and mind). Try to create the perfect vehicle. Strength, flexibility, coordination, technique. You cannot expect a beat up rustbucket to race in the LeMans. You need a fine tuned machine, like a Ferrari.

Besides, if the opportunity presents itself, don't you want the skills to be able to take it?

Not only that, but if you don't train the kick, you won't be able to defend against it. You won't know how to use it, set it up, and make it effective, so you will not be able to defend against those who can. These are the people who will get KO'd by them.

I am going to go with my boy 10 tigers on this. great answer.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Does anyone know the reasons why this tan tui sifu dropped one of his hands near his groin, before he did some of his kicks?

http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV




Thank you

[jet64]

As a kung fu fighter, one of the first five rules that i follow is -never throw a highkick unless your opponent is half conscious.

[David Jamieson]

Dear all,
Does anyone know the reasons why this tan tui sifu dropped one of his hands near his groin, before he did some of his kicks?

http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV




Thank you

who cares. it's a form.

[YouKnowWho]

Dear all,
Does anyone know the reasons why this tan tui sifu dropped one of his hands near his groin, before he did some of his kicks?

http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV

Thank you
You always use one hand for offense and another hand for defense. When you punch, your other hand should protect your weakest spot and that will be your head. When you kick, your other hand should protect your weakest spot and that will be your groin. Many CMA styles have groin cover posture. It could be more symbolic than true usage.

[Yum Cha]

low risk, high return techniques trump high riisk, high return techniques.

two feet on the ground is preferable to one foot on the ground.

Compact and protected is better than splayed and exposed.

IMHO.

[DeHui702]

The only people that shouldn't throw high kicks are the people who don't have the leg training and the skills to do it.

I've seen instructors adopt this 'no high kick' rule of thumb particularly after they pass a certain age and experience loss of ability on their part. It could be due to lack of practice(meaning the Sifu teaches more than has time for himself) or just plain worn out joints/injury. These are the same schools where you'll see a noticibly higher horse stance during forms because that is more 'practical.'

It's a shame when schools take on this 'old man style' because the students miss out on massive development opportunity.

[YouKnowWho]

Some CMA master once said, "The highest level of the combat skill is the run down ability". If you:

- punch me, I'll run you down.
- kick me, I'll run you down.
- don't do anything, I'll still run you down.

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

If you fight against those people who has good "run down ability", your high kick will be risky.

[jet64]

The only people that shouldn't throw high kicks are the people who don't have the leg training and the skills to do it.

I've seen instructors adopt this 'no high kick' rule of thumb particularly after they pass a certain age and experience loss of ability on their part. It could be due to lack of practice(meaning the Sifu teaches more than has time for himself) or just plain worn out joints/injury. These are the same schools where you'll see a noticibly higher horse stance during forms because that is more 'practical.'

It's a shame when schools take on this 'old man style' because the students miss out on massive development opportunity.


its not an old man style, its base on fighting principle of particular style, styles do differ in defense, offense, primary strikes. etc..

its a rule in kungfu, not to throw a highkick unless your opponent is half conscious, that doesnt mean kungfu cannot throw highkicks

[lkfmdc]

low risk, high return techniques trump high riisk, high return techniques.

two feet on the ground is preferable to one foot on the ground.

Compact and protected is better than splayed and exposed.

IMHO.

Unless of course

1) your hands are used to distract and your leg, being twice as strong, can do the most damage

or

2) your hands are occupied, tied up, unable to be used the way you want and thus your legs are the other option

or

3) your hands are used to control and prevent defense while your legs set up the most damaging blow

(just a few thoughts)