What Preying Mantis style uses the "mantis hand"?

[JWTAYLOR]

Do all of the Preying Mantis styles use the "mantis hand"? The one I am referring to has the index finger extended, the thumb either extended or bracing the index, with the other three fingers curled, and the wrist bent.

What style uses this most heavily?
How is this specific hand position used?

Do both Northern and Southern styles use it?

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Kung Lek]

Hi JWT-

In both the southern and northern systems of Kung fu I am being taught there is use of this hand form.

It is a similar hand form to "cranes beak" or "cranes head".

The hand form is used to trap, hook, block and strike.

for trapping it is used in an upward or downward scooping fashion. To use as a hook it is wrapped to an appendage or the neck. As a block it is usually an upward motion against the incoming strike and as a strike it is kind of like using the trap with it and then moving the hand along the striking appendage of your opponent until the back of the hand strikes the target.

Try using it to trap at the wrist of an opponent, you will be surprised at how the hand form enables you to stick to the opponent and follow the trapped appendage wiht relative ease.

peace

Kung Lek

[Gargoyle again]

As far as I know (and I may certainly be wrong on this ;)) the 'mantis hand' is exclusive to the northern mantis branches, I have never seen it in southern (but I've only seen a couple of southern forms).

The use of the hand is many. Primarily, it is used as a trapping/hooking hold, with the three curled fingers hooking a limb, and the thumb and first finger riding on top of the limb, to grip lightly but be able to 'tug' a limb strongly toward you. The hold can also be around someone's leg/ankle or neck (the extended finger can be used to close off the windpipe).

It is also used as a strike, with the extended finger attacking soft points such as the eyes or throat, in a curling/whipping motion or direct thrust

"You should never, never doubt what no one is sure about."
--Willie Wonk

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

For anyone familiar with North Shaolin or Bak Sil Lum.

you have used the hand form in Tan Tui, specifically in rows 4 and 6, also in Tun ta and again in Moi Fah. Some schools will give the hand form as Cranes beak wherein all fingers touch on the thumb, but other schools will give the hand form as mantis hand whereing the index finger is braced by the thumb and the three fingers curl.

I agree that the mantis hand facilitates trapping and pulling moreso than cranes beak, but both have the same effectiveness as a hooking tool.

in Black Tiger System it is used for the same purposes (trapping, hooking, blocking and striking).

peace

Kung Lek

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 12-08-00 at 01:30 PM.]

[Braden]

Six Harmony Mantis (a northern system) doesn't use it. I'm pretty sure the rest do.

[little chain monkey]

we use the mantis hand in northern style shaolin.

[ShaolinMantis]

By my somewhat limited knowledge if the Mantis hook is used in Tam Tui it is incorrect. Since that style is older than mantis, the correct "hand" should be Crane. Some Mantis players tend to use that "hand" as interchangable. I do not believe it should be.
One of my SiHing's maybe be able to clearify that.

ShaolinMantis-I

[beiquan]

we don't do mantis hand in any of the northern shaolin sets that i have learned; however, there is a technique in the "18 hands" which we practice that uses this hand position.

a friend of my sifu's teaches Chu Gar southern mantis, and from what he has told me, i don't believe that any of the southern tanglang styles use this hand form.

[shaolin mantis]

The purpose of the mantis hand is very different
from that of the crane hand. The crane hand can
be use for blocking, hooking, stiking and poking.
The mantis hand can do all that plus one most
important function. That function is that it can
be used to grap. By able to grap your opponents
wrist, you can pretty much control him. The mantis not only graps the hand, but also twist it.
So by grapping and twisting, the end 2 little fingers really digs in your opponents wrist. The
twist will seal their wrist, elbow and shoulder
joints. With a strong twist with the 2 little fingers digging in, the index finger is naturally
loose. I hope this will help explan the mantis hand.

[MoQ]

Tam Tui is Moslem in origin and the hook hand in the forms isn't a crane bill or mantis hook.

"Southern Mantis" is similar to Northern Mantis IN NAME ONLY. There is no "mantis hook" in South Mantis.

The 3 finger grab allows the twisting and locking motions SM describes by excluding the index finger and thus the wrist is kept straight when gripping something parallel with your own arm.

[obiwan]

Excellent posts!

But there is one point of the mantis hook people have neglected. Yes it is used for striking, grabbing, intercepting.etc.....

But why use it too strike when you have many other options? What makes it so different to crane's beak in striking nature?

Make the mantis hook. Now dont look at the hand, look at the wrist. On the outside of the wrist, no forms a very solid and small attack weapon. With correct technique, it becomes easier to attack the throat and groin or other opportunites that are normally easily blocked, but where the hook can be flicked in to attack small and difficult targets.

The crane's beak does not have this advantage.


Also, using the hook forward as"mantis catches the cicada" can poke and flick at the eyes very rapidly.

SIX HARMONY MANTIS DOES USE THE MANTIS HOOK!!!!!!

But it does not look like it. They use a very different variation where the hook is not fully produced. Rather, it looks sort of like a mantis hook about to form.....
index and middle finger slightly more pronounced, but the wrist is not curved yet.

This however is a mantis hook. In fact, in 7 star mantis, the advance uses of the hook look and are used exactly the same as the 6 Harmony mantis hook. Since 6 harmony and 7 star are so closely related, their techniques are also very similar.

The 6 harmony hook is the result of the 7 star hook, but when there is no time to fully produce it, or the practitioners is skill is sufficient to not need to produce it to the full extent. But they can switch to the hook if they choose. They just dont practice it often, as they deem it more basic and prefer to work on the more difficult 6 harmony hook from the beginning.

7 star hooks are practiced first in 7 star eventually moving to the 6 harmony hook because it seems easier to learn the easy move first rather than start from the most difficult first.

this is only a brief summary

The Force will be with you...always

[Ben Gash]

You guys must do a different Tan Tui to me, as there's no hook in the 4th or 6th line that I do.
The hook hand in the 7th line is a single whip.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

ben, perhaps our Tan Tui rows are different.

In the Tan Tui 10 row I learned (yes it's from the Muslim arts and brought in as a prelim set to learning North Shaolin by the late master Kuo yuo Cheong) in row four, there is a cross step followed by 2 mantis hand forms to trap followed by twist and brush the extended leg using a trapping hand then rise and strike with willow leaf palm.

The low brush and rise is again visited in row 6.
The hand form, as I stated is Cranes beak/head or mantis hand.

peace

Kung Lek

[MoQ]

I thought the 12 row was Bak Sil Lum and the 10 row was STILL Moslem as I have only seen this one on video, separate from BSL. I just don't get the forced "shaolin" terminology, as if the crane bill and mantis hand were somehow interchangeable and of course these terms would not be applicable to a Moslem system anyway. I doubt whether Ku Yu Cheong taught "Could be a crane bill, could be a mantis hand, either one, I dunno"...

[Kung Lek]

The Bak Sil Lum My Si Fu is giving me is from Kuo Yuo Cheong lineage and the Tan Tui used to introduce the student to some Northern kicks is the Ten Row Tan Tui.

Also, Kung fu is flexible, I have been taught variations on a form after learning the whole thing. At first I found it a little hard to understand but lately I've found that forms are performed by beginners taking consideration of their overall ability. as tendons and sinews lengthen and muscles become more "mindful", the forms change in practice but not in essence.

I have seen different performances of the same forms on several occasions.

The essence is always the same with variations only in execution of techniques but no change of where the techniques are in the overall pattern.

If it is not flexible and open to variation, it simply is not Kung Fu.
Both 10 and 12 row Tan Tui are derived from Muslim Martial Arts. Because they are muslim arts does not make them any less Chinese. Islam has been active in china for a very long time, almost a thousand years!

religious doctrine and dogma doesn't have much influence on fighting principles and body mechanics.

More similarities than differences in cma overall.

peace

Kung Lek

[Shaolin Master]

In Tantui the Hook is not performed as a mantis hook unless it was modified by mantis schools.
The Hook is a what is commonly referred to as crane hook in english but in chinese it is just 'Hook'. It occurs in most northern systems many times. This applies no matter if 10row 12row or even the two tuiQuan sets of Zhaquan.

ShiChanLong