8-Step Court Judgment

[lapu_squared]

On November 25, 2008, a U.S. District Court issued a final judgment that James Shyun's registered trademark on "Eight Step Preying Mantis" and all other variations (including Eight Step, 8 Step, Babu Tanglang, and Eight Step Praying Mantis spelled correctly) was improperly granted to him. The court ordered that the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office to cancel the trademark registrations.

To prevent any rumors or miscommunications about this judgment, I wanted to share some background information about how this judgment came to be:

Originally, Grandmaster Wei's students did not interfere with James Shyun's martial arts business in the U.S., because they knew him and were happy for his success. Even after James Shyun began claiming to be the "sole inheritor" of 8-Step from Grandmaster Wei (which, for the record, is not true) and asking his former classmates to play along, they went along in the interests of keeping the peace and because they were just happy to see someone promoting 8-Step outside of Taiwan.

Things probably would have continued this way indefinitely. However, last Spring, when Mr. Ernie Wu hosted a reunion in of Grandmaster Wei's students in Houston, Texas, James Shyun threatened to sue anyone who might attempt to teach 8-Step at the event. As offensive and arrogant as this threat may have been, Mr. Wu is a very nice, patient person and probably would have let it slide to preserve his friendship with James Shyun. However, after a number of Grandmaster Wei's former students talked it over, they decided that they could no longer allow James Shyun to hold the trademarks he had filed. The reason is simple: After all of Grandmaster Wei's students have died, there will be no one left to bear witness to the fact that James Shyun is not the "sole inheritor" of 8-Step and has no special role in the 8-Step community at all that would warrant him registering any sort of trademark to that effect. If that were to happen, the students of Grandmaster Wei's former students would have no defense against James Shyun's bullying tactics or those of his students or students' students. The future of the entire 8-Step community would be threatened irrevocably at that point. So, they decided to file a law suit to correct this falsehood once and for all. The suit was filed in the Summer/Fall of 2008 and a final judgment made in November.

One other point of clarification: There have been Internet rumors here and there indicating that James Shyun had previously sued someone for infringing on his right to "own" 8-Step, and won that lawsuit. To my knowledge, there have never been any such lawsuits. I believe those lawsuits were all fabrications of someone's imagination. If someone disagrees, please point me to the specific court and any publicly available records indicating such a lawsuit ever took place.

Hopefully this provides clarity, prevents rumors from spreading, and puts this issue to rest once and for all.

[Three Harmonies]

Is there no limit to Shyun's douche-baggery????? I cannot believe ANYONE trains with the moron!
Yet another example of why CMA are swirling the bowl just about ready to be flushed! Too bad we had to waste some judges time with such a mundane, and silly problem. But I am glad someone put Shyun in his place.

Jake

[taai gihk yahn]

sounds similar to what happened in NYC a few years back after this one PT claimed that he had the exclusive rights to the use of the name "Pilates" (based on his claim that Joe Pilates, with whom he had studied in Joe's old age) had given him exclusive use of the term before he passed away), and actually had a history of threatening legal action against anyone using the name; obviously that didn't work out too well for him, LOL...

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Lapu.
Good post. Nice to hear that things might turn out ok after all.

[notanexit]

Great news.We need more of this in CMA and mantis.This could weed out all the false disciples,sifus,"inheritors",etc.

[Three Harmonies]

Rumor has it Cottrell threatened legal action against certain editors and what not for slander in regards to him being / not being a disciple of Lai's.
So what is your point?
Jake

[Three Harmonies]

Your actions are trollish bro. Deleting posts. No names. Come on, lets grow up a bit.
Jake

[notanexit]

Psycho mantis,When you and others attack me,it confirms that I'm doing the right thing.If I was lying(like the "disciple")you could just ingnore me and write me off as a "psycho"In your previous post(which mysteriously disappeared)you admit that your dictator was'nt honest.Why was he not honest?Why did he present himself as a disciple?Why is he tying sashes around peoples waists and leading them to believe that one day they'll be a "disciple"/ sifu?Where did he learn his yang ban hou style taji?Instead of you asking him that,you chose to bash me.Please put down that Jim Jones kool-aid and think for yourself. I would like to commend the 8-step community for doing what's right and stopping a tyrant.Now your art can grow and flourish.

[Luk Hop]

Well, we all know the inevitable fate of this thread. Why is it that threads and posts are deleted around here anytime something comes up about this???? Should make people think. If one has nothing to hide then why all of the censorship?

Now I have a deep amount of respect and appreciation for the dedication of Mr. Fernando Blanco-Dopazo and his extensive research in the field of Mantistry as can be seen on Mantiscave, but can the profile of this guy please be updated in order to perpetuate accuracy.




Page Updated: 1st July 2000. ??????????????????????????????????????

[EarthDragon]

lapu
thanks for sharing the outcome of this case. I do want to just say my peace.

As a student of Shyun's (now an ex student) for 20 years I have seen it all.
From back in the 80's before the internet we were all fooled into believing he was the sole inheritor, Wei's top student, his only 4th generation diciple and only mantis Master in the US Wei ever produced. Even our history sounded like a kung fu movie and we kinda figured it was embellished just a little bit to sound better but still pretty accurate.
As the internet grew and we met others who studied under Wei and thier sons and daughters who spoke english and were able to set the record straight and had different stories and claims we did our research to get to the bottom and dig to the truth. This is what started it all....... the 9 of us (his original students) were started to learn otherwise.
While lots of controvesy seperated the orginal 9 sifu's from him and we all quit there was no doubt that what he taught was indeed real 8 step. The applications, and fighting were real, the sets were accurate and the taiji was authentic Wu style.

While it felt great to know we had not wasted so many years learning from a fake or made up mantis and shyun was the real deal it was discouraging to know our generation and diciplship was not legit and we could not become true generations of Ba Bu Tang Lang. This is the part where he lost interegrity to the orginal sifu's and most of America. Everyone wants to believe that what thier Sifu tells them is for thier best interest and is real, legit and the truth, and when students find out other wise thier will obviously be dissappointment and disbelief. No one wants to hear thier father is a liar or believe it for that matter.

I just want to say that I do respect him for what he has taught me and so do my students. His picture still hangs in the school next to Master Wei's and Feng Hua Yi's and I continue to teach 8 step proudly. I just wish he was more humble and just taught us kung fu instead of always trying to impress us with his stories and claims. His kung fu skills alone were impresssive enough, but perhaps because deep down inside he knew the truth he would make these claims that were never needed to be made just to fill the emtyness inside. I would have trained with him and continued to train with him with or without the stroies as he is still one of the best martial artists I have had the pleasure to meet. I have crosssed hands with him several times and I can say his technique, power and speed are incrediable.

However with a good martial artist come good morals, values and honesty and hopefully I have taken what he has givin me and added what he left out for my students......... be well.

[woliveri]

Hey EarthDragon,

You're still out there... Cool.

How's the Qigong going? I'm in Florida now still doing my thing.

[EarthDragon]

hey woliveri, yes Im still out here and loving every minute of it. LOL
the qigong is going like always daily. My shrfu is right now in China for 3 months but she just did a demo at the albright knox art galllery for the OX new year. hows things with you? enjoy the florida weather..... its 6 up here today a regular heatwave. PM me soon keep in touch ..take care, be well..........

[Three Harmonies]

ED-
If you think Shyun is good, you should really branch out a bit more. There are people out there that Shyun could not hold a flame too!
Jake

[EarthDragon]

Hey Jake,
while I'm sure thier are better skilled martial artists in the world, I have not had the luxury nor the opportunity to train with them. I have spent many years learning mantis and when I was younger had the golden opportunity to live in S.F at the school and practice 8 hours a day in the 90's with no job and no responsibilites except training training and more training.
while I lived in S.F I was lucky enough to meet Adam Hsu, Brendan Li, Doc Fei Wong, Tat Ma Wong and Chueng Lee but those days are unfortunatly over as I moved back to NY and have a family, home , job, bills etc etc. So I guess if I was still living in SF (the mecca of martial artists) I might be so inclined to persue other avenues but as for now living in Buffalo NY, I am one of the few kung fu teachers in the area with no one higher to learn from other than Hung Gar from Ting Fong Wong's son Billy who wishes not to teach since his father passing.........



I once asked my friend a 10th dan shotokahn sensei back when I did Go Ju Ryu if he knew thier were better teachers, with more efficient styles of karate out there then why not learn them instead of sticking so long with shotokahn?
...............................to which he relplied because I have spent so many years with my teacher mastering and perfecting what I already know I would be foolish to start a different style and not master either..................

[EarthDragon]

psychomantis???? who are you reffering to? highest you ever met was who? and what does that matter?
You joined 4 years ago and have only 1 post? and its a troll post at that? Please keep the thred on topic , thank you........PS if you want anyone to take you seriously then post something worth reading or stay on the main board with the kids BTW this is what he filled out for his profile?????

What's your MA style?
Psycho Mantis
How long have you trained?
Since I saw the hate in my fathers eyes
Biography
Psycho Mantis is a psychic expert for the FOXHOUND unit. Prior to joining FOXHOUND, he worked with the KGB and the FBI. His special abilities include the psychic powers of psychokinesis and telepathy.
Location
Shadow Moses Island
Interests
Telepathy, Controlling your girlfriend, Playing Castlevania
Occupation
Nuclear Terrorist

[Three Harmonies]

Ignore him bro.
I did not mean to come across as dissing your experience. I apologize. I just have grown to despise people like Shyun and his antics.
Sorry again for the way I came across.
Jake

[notanexit]

Well, we all know the inevitable fate of this thread. Why is it that threads and posts are deleted around here anytime something comes up about this???? Should make people think. If one has nothing to hide then why all of the censorship?

Now I have a deep amount of respect and appreciation for the dedication of Mr. Fernando Blanco-Dopazo and his extensive research in the field of Mantistry as can be seen on Mantiscave, but can the profile of this guy please be updated in order to perpetuate accuracy.




Page Updated: 1st July 2000. ??????????????????????????????????????
If I had a colored sash ranking system for telling the truth,Lok Hop,you would get a gold sash(sifu),and you would get a CERTIFICATE, NOT A LETTER(which I will debunk later)That is why Psycho Mantis is deleting his threads and hiding like the coward he is.Hey Psycho,I had an idea of who you were before.But after your last comment to EarthDragon,I'm almost sure that I know who you are,and where you train.Earthdragon,Three harmonies is right,just ignore that ****.

[TongLongJai]

ED-
If you think Shyun is good, you should really branch out a bit more. There are people out there that Shyun could not hold a flame too!
Jake

like who?

.................................................. .................................................. ...............

[EarthDragon]

Jake,
I did not mean to come across as dissing your experience. I apologize. I just have grown to despise people like Shyun and his antics.
Sorry again for the way I came across.
Jake

No worries my friend, I knew what you meant I didnt take it negitively at all which is why i went on to explain my situation. I Trust me if I had the opportunity I would to move to San Jose and beg Mr John Chang to teach me or seek out Mr Lin in LA or TX with Mr Ernie Wu Or NYC....... well you get the point. I am sure all of these men are phenominal martial artists and have forgotten more mantis then I know but again being 42 with family and home keeps me for the time being stuck in NY.

lukhop,
I respect Fernando Blanco as well and thank him for his extensive time he has put into the mantis cave.....but I must say the lineage on 8 step is correct and accurate.
Shyun although obviously not the sole inheritor is still in the 4th generation time line and then so am I and will be my students. while our dicipleship may be incorrect that is not posted in the mantis cave just lineage and generation from teacher to student... so I am not sure what you would like changed.

Tong Long Jai,
you cant be serious? to think that thier are no better MA out there is to think for example.... thier are no better guitar players than say your teacher... although they may be great and the best you've seen or crossed hands with there is always someone better and tougher..........

PS Shyun rarely crossed hands or fought anyone of his students. I hae knowen the man since 1989.... I lived with him and had the opportunity to see him attack someone once.. a sifu Gerald from Chicago who spent his life learning 10 animal and went out to seek out each animal styles masters to challenge and learn form them.....while it was awesome to witness explosive and quick I would never say that he is the best in the world or US for that matter maybe even California.. but he is a great fighter none the less

[EarthDragon]

psycho,
dont know why I even responding to your posts and I have been told not to and I may even regret it however............my friends name is Steve Coker he lives in Alden NY and teaches english at the elementary school in Alden NY and teaches shotokahn karate as in his dojo, and has been practicing Gitchen Funakoshi's shototkahn for almost 45 years now. He travels yearly to Japan to teach japanese students english as well as shotokahn... I can assure you he is not japanese, not self promoted , not dead and I did not meet him at a seminar.

Please refrain from claiming you know everything when its obvious you know little......... its makes you look presumptuous and foolish. No disrespect but your claim is a pretty broad assumption. And considering you said I met him at a seminar is evidence enough you are just talking aout of your arse.

[BeiTangLang]

If I had a colored sash ranking system for telling the truth,Lok Hop,you would get a gold sash(sifu),and you would get a CERTIFICATE, NOT A LETTER(which I will debunk later)That is why Psycho Mantis is deleting his threads and hiding like the coward he is.Hey Psycho,I had an idea of who you were before.But after your last comment to EarthDragon,I'm almost sure that I know who you are,and where you train.Earthdragon,Three harmonies is right,just ignore that ****.

In the intrest of not hijacking this thread, If you have anything to "debunk", please just do it & stop hijacking threads by constantly bringing this up.
But, "debunk" it on another thread. This thread is a declaration of a legal suit settled in a court of law.

The last thread you started was removed due to unsubstantiated allegations. I try as a moderator to keep legal libel off the boards.

Best wishes to you all,
BTL

[Luk Hop]

EarthDragon,

My post was in response to an earlier and since deleted post by Pshyco Mantis.

I was in no way making any reference to anyone in the 8 Step community.

[EarthDragon]

My apologies luk hop. I didnt know posts were being deleted at the time I posted. I thought you were reffering to three harmonies post and it fit right in.. whoops...... take care

[PreMtiveStrike]

Hello Folks,

Non troll motive newbie here. Though I do not know the person of whom you all speak..I'd like to comment just the same. Actually..this is the first time I have ever heard of 8 step mantis(ok stop laughing). I've studied Hsing-I for a few years and now am learning some WC. Both are very different--lol

Anyways..and though some in the WC community may come after me for saying this..I'm not worried since neither person I'm about to mention are people I learn from. The top 2 noise makers in the WC/WT community who pound their chests the loudest (both have schools worldwide that boast large numbers,etc.) are also the ones who are the most controversial. Both claim that it is THEY who were either the late Ip Man's last remaining disciple or learned the "whole" or "secret" system.

Yet, the man who I have learned from(initially in England) is a top disciple of Grandmaster Ip Chun. Grandmaster Chun is a very quiet, humble, nice and polite man who does not need the limelight and certainly does not loudly proclaim that he is the "only" or the "heir" or the "sole head honcho" or WC. And if more people followed this example of having a quiet confidence in themselves..the entire kf community would be better off..

But suing people for teaching WC just because someone else who is a sifu/master wants to give a seminar is just nuts!

3 Harmonies brings up a very good point. Shyun may be an incredible MA..but there is always someone better. With the exception of Bruce Lee..THE most incredible martial artist is a man(actually he passed away recently) by the name of Sensei David Harris. Yet almost noone knew of him because he was so under the radar. I've seen this man drop someone from virtually ANY position. He just toyed with even the most advanced martial artists. In fact Jesse Glover once said that he was the "top 1% or 1% of all martial artists he's ever seen". Yet at the same time I still do not think that there could not be someone out there even better.

Thanks for indulging me guys..

Best,
PMtive..

[EarthDragon]

Nice post PM

I have always been taught that humblness from the teacher shows everything you need to see when walking into a class.
For the teacher to have to show off means he is trying to impress his new students that he is worthy of thier learning and thier money..... this is like a millionaire bragging about how much money he has...
you must realize the guy bragging about how much money he has has only a little.

If you are the real deal then nothing will need protected as no one can take that away from you, thier is no need to own it, copywrite it, control it, feel you are the only one worth having it etc etc.

If you have it and you know it theres no need to show it.. it will be shown on its own.........

The man who toots his own heard cannot be heard across the village........but the man who's horn is tooted by others can be heard across the valley.
__________________

[old8step]

I would like to say the shyun could fight he may not have done it often but working with him back then he had incredible technique. Remember this comes from someone who has trained with some of the best fighters in the mma world. my current standup comes from fairtex and aka trainers. my ground is gracie orginally charles now cesar. I don't post on here much and have no reason to lie.

Earth Dragon can probablly vouch for my knowledge
if you don't remember I know dean shawn michael danny etc. I go back to 92

[woliveri]

Nice Quote from Wuji about Sensi David Harris:
http://www.wuji.com/Harris%20Sensei/


As in the tradition of Master Yueng, Dave's pursuit of the arts is to have fun and play, not fighting. Though a highly skilled martial artist, Dave's practice is the study of energy in movement and the dynamics of balance, intent, and momentum. It's not about throwing or hitting someone, it's the interaction of energy, the conversation and possibilities that happens when one person directs force at another.


Nice!!

[EarthDragon]

woliveri
thanks for sharing that. it nice to see thier ARE people concerned with growth instead of competition.

[Three Harmonies]

Old -
Really means nothing when you do not even leave a name bro / broette.

Certainly are many other facets of martial arts, but I think many of you forget that they are MARTIAL arts. Not just art. Dave Harris knew this. The quote is out of context to much of what I know of him. Though it certainly seems in his later years combat efficacy was not very important to him.

Jake

[woliveri]

Certainly are many other facets of martial arts, but I think many of you forget that they are MARTIAL arts. Not just art. Dave Harris knew this. The quote is out of context to much of what I know of him. Though it certainly seems in his later years combat efficacy was not very important to him.

Jake

Only one word comes to mind.

Wuxing (悟性)

[old8step]

Old -
Really means nothing when you do not even leave a name bro / broette.

Certainly are many other facets of martial arts, but I think many of you forget that they are MARTIAL arts. Not just art. Dave Harris knew this. The quote is out of context to much of what I know of him. Though it certainly seems in his later years combat efficacy was not very important to him.

Jake

I'm not sure if you are talking to me or what really means nothing? But if So my name is Daniel and i trained 8 step at 1405 Noriega with James Sun in the early 90's. Not sure what use my name is since i haven't been involved in 8 step in over 15 years. I am not a great fighter but have trained with great fighters. and know what it feels like to roll and spar with great fighters.

[Oso]

'The Fools School of Traditional Eclectic Improvisational Chinese Hand Dance.'

most awesome...never heard of the guy but in looking at all of that i certainly wish I had. RIP.

[LaterthanNever]

Jake,

With no disrespect intended. Have you ever seen the late Dave Harris do his thing in person? I've met him(twice) and seen him. All I can say is..the man was an absolute freak show! I'm not knocking anyones instructor..but in all the years I've been alive, I agree with Premtivestrike that he would pretty much have defeated...............................A-N-Y-O-N-E!

[Three Harmonies]

Yes I have (I live in Seattle bro;)). He had some skills for sure. But then again I also saw him demonstrate "No touch" type BS, which was... well.... questionable. :confused:

Daniel -
Thanks for sharing your experience. I just get tired of people on this forum hiding behind the keyboard.

Jake

[old8step]

Yes I have (I live in Seattle bro;)). He had some skills for sure. But then again I also saw him demonstrate "No touch" type BS, which was... well.... questionable. :confused:

Daniel -
Thanks for sharing your experience. I just get tired of people on this forum hiding behind the keyboard.

Jake


Jake no issues here I forgot there is so much controversy on this subject that there are alot of trolls. i'm so used to Sherdog where if i say i come from Cesar most people automatically know my camp.

[EarthDragon]

I hear ya Jake, I cant stand that either, but I can vouch for Daniel, he has nothing to hide nor trollish in any mannor. He was my kung fu brother but no longer studies 8 step and has left shyun, as most of his old students have, what a shame, our lineage tarnished like that. But he has a whole new crew of brainwashed newbies to carry on the legacy

[Three Harmonies]

Daniel
I did not mean to imply you are a troll. Certainly your camp speaks for itself, but again, it is the net, and KFO at that!

I really appreciate the forums where they REQUIRE you to post with your real name! Tell you what, it certainly filters out the majority of the BS!!
Jake

[old8step]

Daniel
I did not mean to imply you are a troll. Certainly your camp speaks for itself, but again, it is the net, and KFO at that!

I really appreciate the forums where they REQUIRE you to post with your real name! Tell you what, it certainly filters out the majority of the BS!!
Jake

Yep on Sherdog my main forum my screen name is my real name so it's easier to post.

[Oso]

Daniel
I did not mean to imply you are a troll. Certainly your camp speaks for itself, but again, it is the net, and KFO at that!

I really appreciate the forums where they REQUIRE you to post with your real name! Tell you what, it certainly filters out the majority of the BS!!
Jake

then why did you use 'Three Harmonies'? :p ;)

the alias' are for fun...but, i completely agree that you should also provide your real info.

[Three Harmonies]

Every post I make has my name, email, and usually phone number. I am the easiest person to find and contact. I hide nothing! :)
Cheers
Jake

[Oso]

i know....was a joke....

[Three Harmonies]

I know. Hence the :)

[sho'nuff]

peace and blessing!

im new to this site but have been watching the threads for about 2 years now and now i am a member. i know im kinda late to this thread but im very happy justice was served. i have heard and been told about the stories of mr. sun and the lies he has propagated and unfortunately he has many brain washed members that will follow him no matter what. i have never met any of his newer students but based on threads and post i have seen here it kinda speaks for its self. its really a shame when things like this happens in the chinese martial arts community because we are already looked at by many as not being skilled in actual combat. kung fu has been called every name in the book and since we dont normally fight in mma comps alot of people say it does not work. things like this make it worse because when the skeletons come out the closet tho justice may be served the credibilty of kung fu is further jeperdizes by frauds. the thing is, to my understanding mr. sun is a hell of a martial artist and a good teacher. you would think that would be enough.

i will do my part in being the best student i can be and teach not only combat but morals to whomever i have the opportunity to teach in the future.

hey ed justice finally served!