History of Praying mantis time line?

[LaterthanNever]

All,

I've read that 7 star mantis is the first mantis style. Then from there others came forth and flourished. If someone would be so kind, what is the 2nd style to come from 7 star and then the 3rd, 4th, 5th,etc. and so on.

I'm trying to get an idea for the chronology of mantis. Some site such as the Mantis cave/ MQ are excellent but so voluminous..it's rather hard to decipher.

I believe that someone once said that it is 6 harmonies which is the second oldest and then Plum blossom PM? Or is it vice versa...

Thanks...

[Tainan Mantis]

Just Praying Mantis.

All the prefixes come later, mostly within the past 50-100 years.

[LaterthanNever]

Thank you for your input Tainan..

But my question still goes unanswered ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

First there was Praying Mantis.
In old unpublished manuscripts it is called Praying Mantis or Luohan Short Strikes.

WANG LANG

The book Chang's Pugilist Volume (Chang Shi Wu Ji Shu), Published in Henan sometime during the Chien Long reign (1736-1795) of the Qing dynasty is the first verifiable known reference of Wang Lang, the supposed creator of the style.

IT says:
"Wang Lang chops the earth.

Shoot the body up.

Lower down the pair of swords.

Crouch the body chop the earth."

The only thing to tie this quote to the WL of Mantis is the word "chop" since old mantis is described as being a way to apply chopping strikes.

(complete article )
http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/WL%20swords.htm

ZHAI YAO

7*, 8 Step, Plum Flower , Taiji Mantis and Secret Door Mantis are all closely related. They all have the root of the Zhai Yao forms. At least the first form being in common. Most 7* from Shandong, Plumflower and Taiji Mantis share almost all the essentials (1-6 of Zhai Yao)

ALTERNATE NAMES

Within the old mansucripts Mantis is described this way

"Mantis has a blade, it is the fists and elbows. Therefore, it is also called "warding off blade (jufu)."

Yet, we hear no one calling their school the warding off blade of mantis.
Nor do we hear of the Heavenly Horse style of mantis, another description of the old mantis style no longer seen.

TAIJI IN MANTIS

The origination of the name Taiji Mantis most likely comes from the introduction to Quan Zhong Zhai Yao, the full name of the essentials. IT talks about how well you can defeat your enemies once you have mastered these techniques.

"...giving no roads for his hands to enter while he receives injury all over. THis is the so called complete grand ultimate(taiji)!"

But, the funny thing is that you can find this same quote in 7* Mantis schools including books of Huang Hanxun of HK's mantis school.

So, where in Mantis manuscripts does the term 7* show up?
Nothing that I have seen so far.

7* MANTIS NAME

But, in a 400 year old military manual by General Qi Jiguang called New Book on Effective Training Methods we do find the first known definition of the 7* step. He even includes a picture.

'The hands and feet of seven star compliment each other.

When closing the distance move the lantern up and down.

Even though others have fast hands and feet like the wind.

I can still rush in with heavy cleaving.'

(complete article)
http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/Seizing%20the%20Opportunity.htm

THE SEVEN STAR STEP

Relate this to the article on the step that some schools call the 7* step here:

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/hooked%20step.htm


I could go on and on, but I don't think that I will ever answer your question.
Why?
Because there is no verifiable way to answer who first branched off of Mantis. Someone can say this or that about who was first but is it true?

MSTAKEN NAMES

Here are some examples.

Zhang Dekui of Secret Door Mantis called his style gu tang lang. Which means 'old mantis.'

Yet, a famous book comes out with a textbook 7* Beng Bu as being attributed to him.

This is the same author he gave is the bull about Wang Lang having created the Xiao Huyan forms.

Another book comes out calling his style Bimen and another Mimen. So..a style is born.

Li KUnshan also called his style Mantis. But early generation students of his decided it was 7* and that is what was called for many years.

Later, some smarter people realized that his shifu, Jiang Hualong has students who call their style 8 Step, Mei Hua and Taiji as well as the all encompassing Taiji Meihua.

So now Li Kun Shan is Mei Hua.

YOUR QUESTION

'what is the 2nd style to come from 7 star ..."
Doesn't really have an answer that I know of. After 7* there is nothing.
What we have is Old Mantis Branching into several similar styles.

[EarthDragon]

LOL laterthannever... you asked!!!!!!!!!! LOL be careful what you ask for out here you might just get it...

I just found this thread whiel interesting it was humorous and entertaining as well.

I once asked a complicated question that had no real answer to my college professor ..he said well its not so easy to answer.. I bugged him and bugged him for weeks to answer my question or at least explian it to me.....

one day he sat me down and explained what I wanted to know.. after almost 55 mintues of him talking in many complicated circles and terms of nano subatomic partical fusion .... he said do you understand now??? I was like ummmmmmmmmmmmm yes thank you.... LOL I had no idead what he meant.. this post reminds me of that day... just wanted to share...

[Tainan Mantis]

LOL I had no idead what he meant.. this post reminds me of that day... just wanted to share...


Are you saying that what I wrote is not clear.
That I can understand.

Which part?

[KwaiChangCaine]

Tainan

Your post was very clear and expands on a point I believe you've made before regarding the relatively recent names given to various mantis branches.

I thought the response was complete enough to save for reference.

Steve

[mantis108]

Well, I think Kevin did a good job and I believe the point really is that no Kung Fu is created in a vacuum.

My take on the Greater Meihwa Line is as follow:

The greater Meihwa (plum blossom) lineage consists main of 3 major branches and their hybrid styles. The three major branches are Grand Ultimate (TJPM), Plum Blossom (MHPM) and Grand Ultimate Plum Blossom (TJMHPM).

Basically TJPM, MHPM and TJMHPM are from the same source namely, Liang XueXiang (1810 - 1895 CE) Back then, Tanglangquan as we know was just that - Tanglangquan. It is believe that Liang opened up the system and taken on a lot of students. Some of which were accomplished martial artists as well. This is very important in the development of Liang's PM lines. He was based in Laiyang County in Shandong. Many people traveled to train under him and would later on teach at other locations. One of the popular locations was Yantai County, the old capital of Shandong, where prosperity was.

Among the many students that Liang had, there were Jiang Hualong, Sun Yuanchang, Hao Hun (?) etc... Jiang Hualong (was one of the most famous students among them. He would then teach in Yantai County and he was among the first to give his branch a designation - Meihwa Tanglang. His other peers such as Sun Yuanchang would either go by Tanglangquan or Taiji Tanglang if they originally learnt from Liang Xuexiang in Laiyang. Hao Hun would later identify his branch as Taiji Meihwa Tanglang. It is believed that Jiang Hualong designated his line Meihwa Tanglang in the early part of his martial art career and it is mainly used by his lineages in Yantai. Other lineages of Liang from Laiyang would use the Taiji Tanglang name. In some cases Meihwa and Taiji designations are interchangeable, such as the lineage of Sun Yuanchang, who is believed to be the most senior student of Liang,

The question then comes to why only Taiji, Meihwa or Taiji Meihwa but not other names are used in these lineages? It is believed that has to do with Liang's manuscripts (Quanpu). In the Quanpu, it is first defined in an entry called "Tanglang Ji Ti" (Profile of Praying Mantis) that plum blossom grand ultimate hands (fist in one version) is consisted of winter roosters steps and monkey stance. It is clear that the lineage designation convention is following this entry in the Quanpu.

It is believed that later Jiang Hualong and his confidant-student, Song Zide, saw the need to "canonize" Liang's teaching as a response to the trend that other Liang's students "incorporating" their own training with Liang's Tanglang. As a matter of fact, Jiang himself had his own idea of development which resulted in his brain child - Babu Tanglang. Thus, Taiji Tanglang would mean to some people as a lineage from Liang Xuexiang to Jiang Hualong to Song Zide's lineage(s) specifically.

There is a view that Liang might have knowledge of Taijiquan. It is said that in certain Taiji Meihwa traditions, one can find Taijiquan's attributes. Note that that word "Taiji" came first as an accent which is different from order of the Quanpu. Personally, I haven't come across anything substantial to support the theory that Liang did incorporate Taijiquan into his teaching. However, it is of note that there is a curious point about the original character that was used for the Bengbu (Crash and Fill) form. The word "Beng" (mountain radical on top of friend radical) today is "crash". I have came across another "Beng" (a hand radical next to friend radical as in Beng Jing) that is well known to the Taijiquan people. If this character was really used in the originally Quanpu, then it could be a good indication of GM Liang might have knowledge of Taijiquan or he might have heard about it. The meaning of Bengbu would change somewhat from "Crash and Fill" to roughly “connecting to opponent’s power structure" and fill (attack) the gap (weakness) of that structure. But as it stands, I would not think that GM Liang's Tanglang had anything to do with Taijiquan.

I think a lot of the differences materialized because of the different methodologies which are based in the teaching philosophies of the various masters. For example, the older version of TJPM based more on a body of techniques which are collectively known as Mishou (some seem to suggest that this is rather a form). This explains why it used to be very few students that the Grandmasters would accept and transmit the system to mainly an individual as oppose to many students. From there came Luanjie and Bazhou (during GM Liang XueXiang's time when he decided to accept a large number of students). Then one of the most intriguing form cometh, Laiyang Beng Bu, or Xiao Beng Bu, which could have been created to hide the Luanjie or simply it could have been a creation of the Jiang Hualong line sometime around the same time that he/they created the Meihwa Lu form (plum blossom path). We know of another version of Beng Bu, which is the most recognizable PM form of all time, was mentioned in Liang’s Quanpu as early as 1842 CE. Since it is taught in Yantai County, the old capital of Shandong, it is also called the Yantai Beng Bu. Its original name Da Beng Bu is now rarely in use. Finally a prototypical version of Zhai Yao was created. It is then further developed into 7 sections. At the core, the training philosophy is deeply rooted in Mishou where individual techniques are practiced mano a mano in most hardcore closed quarter combat manner. This I have a taste of from my training in CCK TCPM which is a branch of TJPM. In a way, forms were created to keep other students entertained while the masters work closely with a selected number of students (1 or 2) in the Mishou type of training. If we look at the 12 Characters of Taiji (Meihwa), we see that they are somewhat of an encoded series of drills of conceptual nature, which are expressed through various combinations of techniques (ie Feng Shou has gou-lou-cai in it).

BTW, the Wang Lang story is based on the myth of "White Ape Steal the Peach" as far as I am concern. The White Ape myth is widely known throughout China; therefore is not surprising to find version(s) of it referenced in older works.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Excellent post!
Robert, you are going to have to do something about getting me that Bai Yuan Tou Tao chapter!

Here is another resource I was searching for that chapter, but no luck. This link is to another book unrelated to this conversation, but interesting none the less. Just to see this book.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52965



However, it is of note that there is a curious point about the original character that was used for the Bengbu (Crash and Fill) form. The word "Beng" (mountain radical on top of friend radical) today is "crash".




I believe, with little proof to substantiate, that the original beng of beng bu relates to the type of power used in the spear technique, 'beng qiang(spear).'

Also, the original meaning is too inflate, like a tent, I am using the qi jiguang version of the character.

In that case, this would relate to the peng of taiji, IMO, since I believe that the peng of taiji also comes from this beng qiang spear technique. Especially the peng character.

The idea of an inflated tent ties in well to the actial peng technique in taiji.

At some point I need to write out all the relations between mantis and spear method.

[mantis108]

Hi Kevin,

This page gives a synopsis of the story and many versions (with names) of it in literary works.

Enjoy.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/420249.html

Warmest regards

Robert

PS the word Peng used to mean to use the palm of the hand to cover the quiver in order to prevent the arrows from falling out. This extended to mean to hold and restrain someone. It is used in literature such as the "Water Margin". So the usage is at least in vogue during Ming dynasty.

[LaterthanNever]

Wow--thank you all for the very fine commentary.

Admittedly..some of it eludes me since I do not have any study time in either PM or TJ mantis.

Sensing that perhaps I should clarify my question, I'll do so now.

OK..I'll make an analogy.

In Choy Li Fut kung fu..you have the Chan family lineage(which I believe is considered the first CLF style--though could be wrong), the Hung Sing lineage and the Buk Sing lineage.

All 3 are considered CLF, however..what I meant when drawing an inference with my CLF and mantis example is, from a purely chonological perspective, I have come to understand that it was:

1st family: Chan family lineage(the progenitor/precursor to the remaning 2)

2nd oldest family: Hung Sing lineage(an outgrowth of Chan family) and yet while still CLF like the chan family..I am told it has different forms,etc. and looks distinctly different

3rd oldest family: Buk Sing lineage(this too is considered CLF yet like Hung Sing differs from Chan in both some forms and ways of moving,etc...Buk Sing then differs from Hung Sing in similar respects)

If I am wrong then naturally I would welcome some CLF players to kindly correct me.

Moving on to mantis..what I am asking is..(being an 8 step student). If(and going by reading alone) 7 star mantis is considered the original, what is the 2nd oldest mantis style, and from there what is the 3rd oldest,4th oldest,etc?

The only think I believe(and again could be mistaken) I am sure of is: the 8 step is a younger style than Plum Blossom. Therefore I believe that PB came first and then 8 step.

I hope I've clarified my question. Thanks again gentlemen..:)

[Oso]

According to the replies, 7star is not the original...the 'original' mantis was just that: 'praying mantis' and all the others were appellations attached in the last century or two to differentiate between descendants of the older teachers who didn't have any need to call it anything but 'mantis'

[EarthDragon]

kevin no it was clear. It just rememinded me of that day I asked my professor what i thought was in easy question witha short easy answer. I always enjoy reading yours a Roberts posts.. you two are so well versed in mantis... always a wealth a knowledge.

[mantis108]

Wow--thank you all for the very fine commentary.

Admittedly..some of it eludes me since I do not have any study time in either PM or TJ mantis.

Sensing that perhaps I should clarify my question, I'll do so now.

OK..I'll make an analogy.

In Choy Li Fut kung fu..you have the Chan family lineage(which I believe is considered the first CLF style--though could be wrong), the Hung Sing lineage and the Buk Sing lineage.

All 3 are considered CLF, however..what I meant when drawing an inference with my CLF and mantis example is, from a purely chonological perspective, I have come to understand that it was:

1st family: Chan family lineage(the progenitor/precursor to the remaning 2)

2nd oldest family: Hung Sing lineage(an outgrowth of Chan family) and yet while still CLF like the chan family..I am told it has different forms,etc. and looks distinctly different

3rd oldest family: Buk Sing lineage(this too is considered CLF yet like Hung Sing differs from Chan in both some forms and ways of moving,etc...Buk Sing then differs from Hung Sing in similar respects)

If I am wrong then naturally I would welcome some CLF players to kindly correct me.

Moving on to mantis..what I am asking is..(being an 8 step student). If(and going by reading alone) 7 star mantis is considered the original, what is the 2nd oldest mantis style, and from there what is the 3rd oldest,4th oldest,etc?

The only think I believe(and again could be mistaken) I am sure of is: the 8 step is a younger style than Plum Blossom. Therefore I believe that PB came first and then 8 step.

I hope I've clarified my question. Thanks again gentlemen..:)

Well, my friend, a straight forward answer to your 8 Step question is that Babu Tanglang (8 Step Mantis) does not come from Seven Star Line period! It is rather a creation of Jiang Hualong, who was one of the most famous students of the progenitor of the Greater Meihwa Line, Liang xue Xiang.

The confusion came when many of the traditional Tanglang masters, who fled from China to Taiwan, claimed to be Seven Star Line because of the popularity and fame that Seven Star Line enjoyed outside of Shandong in particular its prestige working with the Jingwu associations that has clubs throughout Asian countries like Vietnam, Singapore, etc and in a lot of the major "cosmopolitan" cities such Shanghai and Hong Kong. Babu's most recognizable master, Wei Xiao Tang, was one of those who migrated to Taiwan and was very successful in building a large contingent of Babu practitioners.

In hind sight, I would say that the claim is an unwise move that caused more trouble than good. So the cold hard fact is that there is no real relation between Seven Star and Babu other than the fact that they are both Mantis styles from Shandong Province. They are both very capable of being a stand alone Kung Fu style although Babu would be considered somewhat of a hybrid style.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Mantis108

PS Earth Dragon, thanks for the kind words. :)

[Oso]

hey Robert, how do you say 'mixed martial art' in mandarin? ;)

[mantis108]

hey Robert, how do you say 'mixed martial art' in mandarin? ;)

Hi Oso,

Well, it's "Zong He Ge dou". Technically, mixed martial art as a sport has to address 3 phases of fighting - stand up, clinch and ground. Prototypical MMA "style" was composed of Muay Thai and BJJ. Since most if not all TCMA styles including mantis seldom address the ground phase, it would be hard press to call TCMA mixed martial arts by the current definition. So... :)

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

in the interview included on the dvd for the movie 'Redbelt' Dana White talks about the evolution of the UFC and mma in general and talks about 'addressing' each area fo the game and points out that one doesn't necessarily have to be great in all the areas but you do have to be able to defend against all the ranges in order to have the opportunity to attack with your particular 'specialty'.

I do believe that TCMA does have the ability to defend against being taken down...and once again, it's a change in training doctrine that most schools need to address. However, unless you work with people that are TRYING to take you down like a 'grappler' would then you can't ever learn how to defend against it.

[yu shan]

Hey Oso

I have a wrestling background like you and my muscle memory tends to remember that training when someone shoots on me. But Shifu has taught ways of moving the body to keep from being taken down.

[Oso]

Hey Oso

I have a wrestling background like you and my muscle memory tends to remember that training when someone shoots on me. But Shifu has taught ways of moving the body to keep from being taken down.


yea, like I said, i fully believe that mantis, and other TCMA, has the tools to become competent at defending against the take down...however, TCMA also does not try to take people down, or throw people down, like wrestlers or juijitsu/judo players will try to...so, one has to train with those types of people so one can learn to apply what you know against them.

[Oso]

wow...sorry for the derailment...back to topic...

thanks to Shifu Kevin and Shifu Robert for, as usual, bringing the history smackdown on us :)

oh, and LTN, kind of a weak troll attempt...I give it a .7 :D

[LaterthanNever]

Gee it's funny Oso,

I ask a legitimate question in an attempt to glean info on which came first..the chicken or the egg..er..I mean the 7 star and the rest..and I get accused of being a troll? :eek: :rolleyes:

I'd sure like to know where I took a swipe at anyones style/lineage or teacher eh?

[Oso]

didn't say you took a swipe at anyone's lineage...but, well, just a hunch on my part...we'll see...if not, my apologies.

[Sal Canzonieri]

In my research, Shaolin had the Kanjia Quan style, it's third set is called the Tang Lang Zhao (Mantis Claws), it is also called Jingang Shou (Warrior Hands). This set has a chopping motion.
Supposedly this Tang Lang Zhao set spread to Shandong province at some point, and is practiced in the Laizhou Province there by the Shaolin Mei Hua Men style.

So, it interesting that:
"The book Chang's Pugilist Volume (Chang Shi Wu Ji Shu), Published in Henan sometime during the Chien Long reign (1736-1795) of the Qing dynasty is the first verifiable known reference of Wang Lang, the supposed creator of the style.

IT says:
"Wang Lang chops the earth.

Shoot the body up.

Lower down the pair of swords.

Crouch the body chop the earth."

The only thing to tie this quote to the WL of Mantis is the word "chop" since old mantis is described as being a way to apply chopping strikes."

Furthermore, in Laizhou, which I think is an early source of Mei Hua Tang Lang, the Shaolin Mei Hua Men includes a set called 32 Posture Duanda, which is also known as Taizhu Chang Quan 32 postures set. This style developed after the early 1700s, before Chang's Pugilist Volume was written.
This Mei Hua Men style's sets came from the Wu Quan / Luohan Quan system of Shaolin.

Taizhu Chang Quan is one of the 18 styles listed in the Luohan Duanda manual.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, I think Kevin did a good job and I believe the point really is that no Kung Fu is created in a vacuum.

My take on the Greater Meihwa Line is as follow:

The greater Meihwa (plum blossom) lineage consists main of 3 major branches and their hybrid styles. The three major branches are Grand Ultimate (TJPM), Plum Blossom (MHPM) and Grand Ultimate Plum Blossom (TJMHPM).

Basically TJPM, MHPM and TJMHPM are from the same source namely, Liang XueXiang (1810 - 1895 CE) Back then, Tanglangquan as we know was just that - Tanglangquan. It is believe that Liang opened up the system and taken on a lot of students. Some of which were accomplished martial artists as well. This is very important in the development of Liang's PM lines. He was based in Laiyang County in Shandong. Many people traveled to train under him and would later on teach at other locations. One of the popular locations was Yantai County, the old capital of Shandong, where prosperity was.

Among the many students that Liang had, there were Jiang Hualong, Sun Yuanchang, Hao Hun (?) etc... Jiang Hualong (was one of the most famous students among them. He would then teach in Yantai County and he was among the first to give his branch a designation - Meihwa Tanglang. His other peers such as Sun Yuanchang would either go by Tanglangquan or Taiji Tanglang if they originally learnt from Liang Xuexiang in Laiyang. Hao Hun would later identify his branch as Taiji Meihwa Tanglang. It is believed that Jiang Hualong designated his line Meihwa Tanglang in the early part of his martial art career and it is mainly used by his lineages in Yantai. Other lineages of Liang from Laiyang would use the Taiji Tanglang name. In some cases Meihwa and Taiji designations are interchangeable, such as the lineage of Sun Yuanchang, who is believed to be the most senior student of Liang,

The question then comes to why only Taiji, Meihwa or Taiji Meihwa but not other names are used in these lineages? It is believed that has to do with Liang's manuscripts (Quanpu). In the Quanpu, it is first defined in an entry called "Tanglang Ji Ti" (Profile of Praying Mantis) that plum blossom grand ultimate hands (fist in one version) is consisted of winter roosters steps and monkey stance. It is clear that the lineage designation convention is following this entry in the Quanpu.

It is believed that later Jiang Hualong and his confidant-student, Song Zide, saw the need to "canonize" Liang's teaching as a response to the trend that other Liang's students "incorporating" their own training with Liang's Tanglang. As a matter of fact, Jiang himself had his own idea of development which resulted in his brain child - Babu Tanglang. Thus, Taiji Tanglang would mean to some people as a lineage from Liang Xuexiang to Jiang Hualong to Song Zide's lineage(s) specifically.

There is a view that Liang might have knowledge of Taijiquan. It is said that in certain Taiji Meihwa traditions, one can find Taijiquan's attributes. Note that that word "Taiji" came first as an accent which is different from order of the Quanpu. Personally, I haven't come across anything substantial to support the theory that Liang did incorporate Taijiquan into his teaching. However, it is of note that there is a curious point about the original character that was used for the Bengbu (Crash and Fill) form. The word "Beng" (mountain radical on top of friend radical) today is "crash". I have came across another "Beng" (a hand radical next to friend radical as in Beng Jing) that is well known to the Taijiquan people. If this character was really used in the originally Quanpu, then it could be a good indication of GM Liang might have knowledge of Taijiquan or he might have heard about it. The meaning of Bengbu would change somewhat from "Crash and Fill" to roughly “connecting to opponent’s power structure" and fill (attack) the gap (weakness) of that structure. But as it stands, I would not think that GM Liang's Tanglang had anything to do with Taijiquan.

I think a lot of the differences materialized because of the different methodologies which are based in the teaching philosophies of the various masters. For example, the older version of TJPM based more on a body of techniques which are collectively known as Mishou (some seem to suggest that this is rather a form). This explains why it used to be very few students that the Grandmasters would accept and transmit the system to mainly an individual as oppose to many students. From there came Luanjie and Bazhou (during GM Liang XueXiang's time when he decided to accept a large number of students). Then one of the most intriguing form cometh, Laiyang Beng Bu, or Xiao Beng Bu, which could have been created to hide the Luanjie or simply it could have been a creation of the Jiang Hualong line sometime around the same time that he/they created the Meihwa Lu form (plum blossom path). We know of another version of Beng Bu, which is the most recognizable PM form of all time, was mentioned in Liang’s Quanpu as early as 1842 CE. Since it is taught in Yantai County, the old capital of Shandong, it is also called the Yantai Beng Bu. Its original name Da Beng Bu is now rarely in use. Finally a prototypical version of Zhai Yao was created. It is then further developed into 7 sections. At the core, the training philosophy is deeply rooted in Mishou where individual techniques are practiced mano a mano in most hardcore closed quarter combat manner. This I have a taste of from my training in CCK TCPM which is a branch of TJPM. In a way, forms were created to keep other students entertained while the masters work closely with a selected number of students (1 or 2) in the Mishou type of training. If we look at the 12 Characters of Taiji (Meihwa), we see that they are somewhat of an encoded series of drills of conceptual nature, which are expressed through various combinations of techniques (ie Feng Shou has gou-lou-cai in it).

BTW, the Wang Lang story is based on the myth of "White Ape Steal the Peach" as far as I am concern. The White Ape myth is widely known throughout China; therefore is not surprising to find version(s) of it referenced in older works.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Mantis108

If somehow Mei hua Tang Lang and Taji Mei Hua Tang Lang was influenced by the earlier LiaZhou Shaolin Mei Hua Men style, the connection to what appears to act like "taiji Quan" was their soft hand nei gongs and the Taizhu Chang Quan sets that they practiced. At that time period TZ Chang Quan was an internal style, pretty much it was prototypical versions of movements now seen in Tajiquan.

[Tainan Mantis]

Shaolin had the Kanjia Quan style, it's third set is called the Tang Lang Zhao (Mantis Claws), it is also called Jingang Shou (Warrior Hands).


the Shaolin Mei Hua Men includes a set called 32 Posture Duanda, which is also known as Taizhu Chang Quan 32 postures set.



Thanks for posting that, very interesting!
Any Youtube examples of this?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks for posting that, very interesting!
Any Youtube examples of this?

Modern day people would exaggerate the movements and make them look like modern wushu long fist.

Also, it's not Han Qing Tang's Taizhu Chang Quan set, I researched that set, it is originally from Yan Qing Mi Zhong style.

It should be related to the TZ Chang Quan and the Long Fist in 2 Roads sets that Gao taught. I researched those sets and they are from Tongbei Quan originally.

What it should look like is a fast and slow, hard and soft, alternating version of Chen taiji 1st set (Yi Lu), with the internal circular movement making external circles of the arms happen. Small circles inside big circles outside (long fist); big circles inside, small circles outside (duanda).
That would be the large making the small, the small making the large as described in the "Luohan Duanda" manuals.
Like this, Jin Gang Quan, which is very related to TZ Chang Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSRzgdC5bfk

Here's the Tongbei version of a very similar set, Tongbei Quan would do this very fast like Mantis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Si3zloG6w


here's some of the actual Taizhu Long Rising Fists 32 Short Hands (Duanda) set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N83nCaFXh3M&NR=1

[Sal Canzonieri]

I was on some Chinese websites for Tanglang, there were articles about this Laizhou Taizhu Men and since it mentioned this Tanglang Zhao set that was from Shoalin originally.

It's pretty primitive hook hand movements in the set.

Since the set came to Shandong during the 1730s-1760s, something to think about or explore was that Li Bingxiao from Lai area was from that time period or a little later and his tanglang was pretty much described like this Tanglang Zhao set. He didn't have a myriad of routines, mostly a set of loose techniques.

Perhaps his Meihua Tanglang is connected to this Shandong Laizhou Shaolin Meihua Men system?

[Qixing Tanglang]

Hey Sal,

You talking about this article:
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Article/Wushu%20Article/1720061102181332.html ?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal,

You talking about this article:
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Article/Wushu%20Article/1720061102181332.html ?

Yes, one of them.

[Qixing Tanglang]

Sal - you have a habit of leaving out your sources?

The article sourced above describes some of the variants of Shaolin Taizu in Shandong and North East China which was interesting. But it never says Tanglang Shisan Zhao originally comes from Shaolin. Don’t know where you pulled that from?

Old Tanglang has its roots in many regional boxing systems of Shandong. This would also include some local rendition of Shaolin Taizu.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal - you have a habit of leaving out your sources?

The article sourced above describes some of the variants of Shaolin Taizu in Shandong and North East China which was interesting. But it never says Tanglang Shisan Zhao originally comes from Shaolin. Don’t know where you pulled that from?

Old Tanglang has its roots in many regional boxing systems of Shandong. This would also include some local rendition of Shaolin Taizu.

Sorry, yes, I got Tanglang Zhao information from multiple other sources, mostly material about Shaolin.
I've been investigating the Shaolin Kanjia Quan style, it's third set is named officially "San Jian Zhu Ge", but it is called by practitioners in Henan the "Tang Lang Zhao" set, also called "Jingang Shou" set (depending on the time periods).

The set of Kanjia Quan sets left Shaolin between 1730s and 1780s, when the shrine areas of Shaolin were shut down and destroyed by the emperor, who okayed a renovation of the Shaolin temple grounds. Thus, he was able to rid Shaolin area of the anti-Qing rebels who hid out there and posed as Shaolin martial monks.
The Kanjia was guard house martial arts sets, practiced by lookouts.

These "martial monks" and rebels went to Shandong province during this time.

I had people ask questions to the present day lineage head of Henan Xingong Quan, who still practice some of the old sets. Only a small area of Henan practices these old sets. According to them, this Tangland Zhao set was primitive hook hands mixed in with the long fist movements and from there it went to a small area of Shandong province, where it is still practiced by a very few.

Also, that article about Laizhou Shaolin Taizhu Mei Hua Men style that practices the Tanglang Zhao set, that article clearly says that Cheng Li Xian received the sets from Shaolin monks, and looking at the list of sets it practiced and comparing them to other shaolin manuals, some kind of dating can be figured out.

For that I used these as sources: Hand Combat Classic, Hand -Combat Method Collection (Quan Jing; Quan Fa Beiyao), with a preface of 1784 by Cao Huandou, and Xuanji's Secret Transmission of Acupuncture Points’ Hand - Combat Formulas (Xuanji Mi Shou Xuedao Quan Jue), with preface by Zhang Ming. these books were published in the 1700s, but the prefaces state that they were written about 100 years earlier by their actual writer.

Some Shaolin based styles in Henan and Shandong practiced a set called Yuejia Duanda Chui (Yue Family Close Strike Hammers). These books were annotated versions of an earlier book from about about 100 years earlier by Zhang Kongzhao (style: Hengqiu), who studied his Shaolin method with Zhang Ming (who is given as author of the preface to Xuanji’s Secret Transmissions book)

In the late Ming Dynasty, the Yuejia Duanda Chui was practiced at Shaolin (perhaps also in one of the other branches of the main location in Henan Province). At some point, Shaolin monks traveling in the Yingkou area of Liaoning province, in northeastern China, passed on a system of what appears to be Mi Quan and Shaolin Wu Quan sets south to Cheng (Sheng) Lixian (盛力先) of Shandong province. The system he brought home and practiced in the Laizhou (莱州) village was later named Shaolin Meihua Men. Some of the sets that they practiced were Taizhu Quan, Tang Lang 13 Zhao, Xiao Hu Yan, Yuejia Chui, Heihu Quan, Meihua Quan, Da Hong Quan, and 8 Drunken Immortals, among others: 太祖拳, 螳螂十三招, 小虎燕, 岳家捶, 黑虎拳, 梅花拳, 大洪拳, and 醉八仙等. The weapon sets were taizhu and Plum Flower based implements: 梅花刀, 梅花剑, 行者棍, 梅花枪, 梅花叠鞭, 虎尾三节棍 (即宋太祖盘龙棍), 八卦游龙剑, and 虎头双钩等. This Yuejia Chui set is what eventually eventually developed into the Yue Shi Bafan Shou set as it was spread into Shandong and then north into Hebei province, where this set is most prevalent now.

The list of sets clearly show that the sets came from the 1700s era martial arts of that area, some of the sets are from Meihua Zhuang, a style practiced by anti-Qing rebels, some of the sets are from Mi Quan, and all of the sets were originally from hand written quanpu I have seen that come from Shaolin Wu Quan system originally, from about the 1500s, descendents of Yi Guan's students, such as the founder of Choi Gar Kune (Cai Jia Quan in Mandarin).

ALSO< the Henan Shaolin people practice a 13 Zhao (claws) set, its creation attributed to Baiyufeng.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Since the set came to Shandong during the 1730s-1760s, something to think about or explore was that Li Bingxiao from Lai area was from that time period or a little later and his tanglang was pretty much described like this Tanglang Zhao set. He didn't have a myriad of routines, mostly a set of loose techniques.

Perhaps his Meihua Tanglang is connected to this Shandong Laizhou Shaolin Meihua Men system?

I know you guys don't like for "outsiders' (though I learned Mantis from the late Charles Chen when he had his Wutang School in Parsippany NJ about 10 years ago) to get involved in your affairs.

But, don't you think it warrants that people investigate Laizhou Shaolin Mei Hua Men style's founder Sheng / Cheng (same character used for two different dialect pronunciations) Li Xian and the possibility that he was connected to the legendary Sheng Xiao "Daoren", as they would be both from the same time period?

Especially since Li Bingxiao of Meihua Tanglang was from the same area as well?

And that the Shaolin Meihua Men system had stuff like Bafan Shan's Yuhuan Bu and Yuanyang Jiao? Which Shandong Mantis has as well?