Why Jiu-Jitsu is more important than Kung Fu

[Ray Pina]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... the least space and amount of movement required to deliver power, the better.

I enjoy this technique and find scoring very easily against more "traditional" boxers and kick boxers. The "problem" is, knock outs are not very likely against a fresh, eager fighter. AFter a few engagements, the element of surprise has been lost. And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.

It's the truth.

[taai gihk yahn]

good point, but perhaps one could generalize it a bit and look at it from the perspective of how the efficacy of strikes in the jamming range decreases / dissipates when in clinching / grappling range?

[diego]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... the least space and amount of movement required to deliver power, the better.

I enjoy this technique and find scoring very easily against more "traditional" boxers and kick boxers. The "problem" is, knock outs are not very likely against a fresh, eager fighter. AFter a few engagements, the element of surprise has been lost. And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.

It's the truth.

welcome to 4 A.D.:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath

I'm sure the big guy has always been the issue...kung fu dances with weapons, what else do you need?.

[TenTigers]

perhaps you should have studied more Kung-Fu before you decide you understand its concepts enough to discount the genre of TCMA
. Sure, we intercept the strike, countering at the same time, but the idea is not to then disengage and then do it again and again, which is why you say your opponents can build up a defense against it, as your element of surprise is now gone. That is the sportfighting mentality.
Rather, the idea is to shut him down. Intercept/counter, as you said, but continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed. Do it and be done. The arts you studied-Hung-Ga, Wing Chun and some SPM, as well as the Hsing-Yi all use this fighting philosophy.
btw-easier said than done, but that is the basic idea.

[Ray Pina]

perhaps you should have studied more Kung-Fu before you decide you understand its concepts enough to discount the genre of TCMA
. Sure, we intercept the strike, countering at the same time, but the idea is not to then disengage and then do it again and again, which is why you say your opponents can build up a defense against it, as your element of surprise is now gone. That is the sportfighting mentality.
Rather, the idea is to shut him down. Intercept/counter, as you said, but continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed. Do it and be done. The arts you studied-Hung-Ga, Wing Chun and some SPM, as well as the Hsing-Yi all use this fighting philosophy.
btw-easier said than done, but that is the basic idea.

No need to become aggressive and defensive. I'm not discounting anything. In fact, I said I enjoyed the method. The problem is, it is not to easy to "shut him down. Intercept/counter," and "continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed."

The other guy is training too. In fact, I would argue the guy that is fighting and also traing in jiu-jitsu is most likely training harder than your typical Wing Chun, Hung Gar man. When was the last time you ended a fight against another trained man in the initial engagement?

So my point, at least for me, is that jiu-jitsu provides such an overwhelming advantage when one has it and the other doesn't. Where as efficient striking, perhaps even more efficient realistic striking, can be found more readily from a wide assortment of styles.

[eomonroe00]

ray you make a strong claim, can you explain a little more, what makes jiu jitsu such an overwelming force, you only mention how individuals in that style train harder than others, is that the only reason?

[TenTigers]

"No need to become aggressive and defensive. I'm not discounting anything. In fact, I said I enjoyed the method. The problem is, it is not to easy to "shut him down. Intercept/counter," and "continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed."
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like I said-easier said than done-but that is the goal. The problem is, most people abandon their training before ever approaching, let alone achieving that goal.
Ever wonder why there are so few accomplished -really accomplished Martial artists? I'm not talking about tough guys who can kick and punch, but men who have actually achieved MASTERY. Ever stop and think about why Gin Foon Mark is held in such high esteem?


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"The other guy is training too. In fact, I would argue the guy that is fighting and also traing in jiu-jitsu is most likely training harder than your typical Wing Chun, Hung Gar man. "
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That has nothing to do with styles. That is purely training.
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"When was the last time you ended a fight against another trained man in the initial engagement?"
----------------------------------
I admit-not often. But...my Sifu does that to me in a heartbeat. I'm working to get there. I'm not there yet. But I am training to get there.
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"So my point, at least for me, is that jiu-jitsu provides such an overwhelming advantage when one has it and the other doesn't. Where as efficient striking, perhaps even more efficient realistic striking, can be found more readily from a wide assortment of styles."
----------------------

that's just plain stupid. ANYONE has an advantage when one has it and the other one doesn't. No matter what the technique.

I am not argueing that BJJ does not have great stuff. ALL MA has great stuff.
The fact is, most people have not really gotten far enough into their style to make an educated assessment. Certainly not you. You have DABBLED in a little bit of Gung-Fu. Sure, you picked up some cool stuff and some skills, But you never stayed long enough or trained contnuously enough to really understand TCMA.

Ray, I like you. You are strong, young, and willing to do whatever it takes to learn and develop your technique.
You get major cool points.
The truth of the matter is, you have very little experience and knowledge in TCMA.
Not that you haven't trained in it-but not to the extent that you are in any position to speak on its strengths and weaknesses.
This is not a put-down. Hai Gum La- It is what it is.

BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE!
I am your biggest fan.
Whenever you go out and fight or test yourself, I am in your corner, right there with you , rooting for you. Because I love what you are doing. And I know you are in there testing yourself, trying out new stuff, and putting yourself on the line
That is certainly more than most people-especially most on these forums are willing to do. You da man.

You just need to understand that there is more to what you have learned, than what you have learned. (pretty fukin zen, huh)
You have only scratched the surface.
Keep it up.
I actually think you are on the right track.

[Shaolinlueb]

perhaps you should have studied more Kung-Fu before you decide you understand its concepts enough to discount the genre of TCMA
. Sure, we intercept the strike, countering at the same time, but the idea is not to then disengage and then do it again and again, which is why you say your opponents can build up a defense against it, as your element of surprise is now gone. That is the sportfighting mentality.
Rather, the idea is to shut him down. Intercept/counter, as you said, but continue, with forward pressure, continuously hitting and pressing the attack and not stopping until your opponent is downed. Do it and be done. The arts you studied-Hung-Ga, Wing Chun and some SPM, as well as the Hsing-Yi all use this fighting philosophy.
btw-easier said than done, but that is the basic idea.

/thread............

[TenTigers]

/thread............
bull****. you know this forum. it will only lead to the usual *******s,er, suspects shooting their mouths off.

[Ray Pina]

ray you make a strong claim, can you explain a little more, what makes jiu jitsu such an overwelming force, you only mention how individuals in that style train harder than others, is that the only reason?


For me the lesson was made crystal clear when one of coach Rosses men pinned my a$$ in side control in my first cage match. I've had all types of Kung Fu guys who picked up "some grappling" here and there put me in that position. A real jiu-jitsu man who knows how to pin you down, use his shoulder to press your face into the mat, sink his weight into you and control your hips and keep it tight.... it is very hard to get out of that. There are mechanical and structural requirements that don't come naturally. The same could be said for many positions, but side control made it clear to me. I began studying at Renzo Gracies the following week.

[Ray Pina]

that's just plain stupid. ANYONE has an advantage when one has it and the other one doesn't. No matter what the technique. .

I stopped reading your post right here for two reasons. 1) For some reason your last two posts, including this one, have an air of arrogance about them. 2) You are wrong and expose your level, thinking, and defensive posture when it comes to your money making pajama party.

Wing Chun's Bong Sau, Tan Sau, Fuk Sau..... why hasn't any Wing Chun guys gone on a rampage dominating people with this technology the way jiu-jitsu guys have with theirs?

Because it doesn't provide an overwhelming advantage. God knows I faced it, destroyed it, and said, you know what, after 5 years I got enough of the flavor of this thing. None of these guys can fight with this $hit. Same could be said for crane beak, Lama's big swooping shots where they don't block, but just dodge strikes. No one has done di(k with this exclusive technology.

But to pass up jiu-jitsu today, now that it is out of the bag, you instantly regulate yourself to the sidelines. You can not compete with someone who is comfortable throwing the fists AND has jiu-jitsu. And when I say compete, I'm not just saying the ring or cage. I'm talking 1-on-1 until its done.

Let those who have eyes to see, see; ears to hear, hear. Shame on those who would purposely conceal light and truth to others for profit.

[brothernumber9]

Ray,

I generally agree objectively with what you are stating. Keep in mind also that you started training at Renzo's. and although there are some other comparable gyms/instructors to learn from, there are already visible signs of places that are jumpling on the BJJ bandwagon and giving instruction no where near to what you are getting. The integrity at large is still intact, I assume, for BJJ. If you see a guy with a blue, brown, or black belt, chances are they earned it and are skilled.
But now there are karate, Tae Kwon Do, and kung fu schools that are trying to integrate some sort of ground training, and in some cases propagating BS blackbelts, or fabricating the entire curriculum alltogether. It will eventually still be left down to man vs man or woman vs woman and what each brings to the fight on that occasion. I do agree that ground experience vs. little-to-no ground exp = huge advantages and disadvantages.

[Ray Pina]

I am not argueing that BJJ does not have great stuff. ALL MA has great stuff.
The fact is, most people have not really gotten far enough into their style to make an educated assessment. Certainly not you. You have DABBLED in a little bit of Gung-Fu. Sure, you picked up some cool stuff and some skills, But you never stayed long enough or trained contnuously enough to really understand TCMA.
.

You have said this now a few times and now I am going to address it.

I put in 12 to 13 years of Issin-Ryu (five days a week, two classes a night) BEFORE I started Kung Fu. That helps a lot.

I put about 5 to 6 years into Wing Chun and Hung Gar. For me, that was enough. Maybe I'm a fool. Sure I'd have learned more not fighting and doing chi sau for another five years, but the style of Master David Bond Chan was too much for me to pass. And instantly I saw the weaknesses in what I was studying. So I put about another 5 to 7 years with him. It's hard to tell. The years all combine together at some point.

But here comes my other major point.... WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE ME AND MY KUNG FU????? Who has appointed you.... and to what status?

I'm breaking my a$$ fighting monthly down here. In the past year I've had to deal with a broken collar bone, rib and now foot which is still healing. I'm improving and continuing to base my progress against other young men who are working hard to win at a competitive level.

But more importantly, I think my willingness to pick up shop and move onto something completely new is my advantage. It would be easy for me to don one of my two black belts and sit in front of class like a hero. Instead I tie on a new white belt, turn off my mind and ego, and expand myself.

Best of luck to you and your school in 2009.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,

I generally agree objectively with what you are stating. ....., there are already visible signs of places that are jumpling on the BJJ bandwagon and giving instruction no where near to what you are getting.

First, thank you for being honest and being willing to post the obvious though it may not be popular. For me this discussion is not about better or worse, it's just a no brainer.


You are right about non-BJJ schools incorporating the stuff and I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, kudos to them for trying to expand their knowledge. On the other hand, all too often one doesn't know what they don't know.

We recently had a big tournament down here and it was night and day between the straight BJJ schools and the karate/BJJ schools. None of them placed. They were generally thrown and submitted for the same reasons I stated..... they were overwhelmed, unable to escape positions. So they exhausted themselves struggling and easy to submit.

A newbie wouldn't know the difference in schools, and that's a shame. But you'd guess with time and exposure they'd be able to tell. And if they were smart they'd make the switch after seeing results at tournament.

[MasterKiller]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... the least space and amount of movement required to deliver power, the better.

I enjoy this technique and find scoring very easily against more "traditional" boxers and kick boxers. The "problem" is, knock outs are not very likely against a fresh, eager fighter. AFter a few engagements, the element of surprise has been lost. And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.

It's the truth.

Really, this is not a BJJ vs Kung Fu argument. It's a BJJ vs Striking argument.

If a BJJ player double-legs a Muay Thai fighter, he's going to have the same issues.

If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more 'pure' striking arts. We all know most CMA places don't train with the same intensity as sport clubs, which is usually why they get stomped in competition.

[bawang]

i agree with u that ju jitsu is superior to kung fu. i quit kung fu when i tried to use and got kneed in the face and took down i remember it like yesterday. but when i grow older i started again because there are other reasons for doing kung fu. i dont care anymore.
i perfectly understand westerners quitting kung fu, there is a strong cultureal barrier, even for modern chinese too. i encourage anyone whos not satisfied with kung fu to quit. there are better fighting styles out there. 100 dollars a month can buy you 100 kfc chicken legs. i think muay thai and praday serei is good if u r into the whole exotic asian arts thing.

i know why westerners love mma. its a western martial arts and give you pride and identity when in the 70's everyone thought only exotic asian martial arts were effective. i know muay thai is from thais and jujitsu is from japan but concept of mma is a western idea. this is good but u dont need to put down and insult kung fu. i put work and efort into my kung fu.

[brothernumber9]

i know why westerners love mma. its a western martial arts and give you white pride and identity .

Yes. Before MMA, I was ashamed to be white and did not know who I was, because only Japanese could be ninjas except Chuck Norris. but since MMA came along I can now feel fine to be white. As a matter of fact, I was talking to Rashad Evans yesterday and asked him why he started MMA and he said, "cuz it gives me white pride."
and I have a name tag and a driver's license now. Thank you MMA you are awesome.

[SavvySavage]

I'm glad we're starting off the new year the same way we ended the last.


Ray,
Here's a few minor points I've realized. You mentioned in the past that kung fu people are using the reputations of past masters to show the effectiveness of their systems. But non of them are competing today and winning which you argue is the reason for Kung fu's lack of good fighters. You've also states that you can't seem to win a match even with all your BJJ training. If YOU haven't won using it then how do you know how effective it really is? Because OTHERS have won in the past which must mean it is effective today. You're support of MMA is for reasons similar to why Kung fu people do what they do. It looks like we're all riding on the backs of the founding fathers.

Until you start winning consecutively you haven't proven that what you are studying is any better than what kung fu does.

[bawang]

Yes. Before MMA, I was ashamed to be white and did not know who I was, because only Japanese could be ninjas except Chuck Norris. but since MMA came along I can now feel fine to be white. As a matter of fact, I was talking to Rashad Evans yesterday and asked him why he started MMA and he said, "cuz it gives me white pride."
and I have a name tag and a driver's license now. Thank you MMA you are awesome.
that's my opinion, i met some racist sifus before, im not talking about ray btw

hi savvysavage, i think ray pina said he wins against kung fu people but loses against other ju jitsu people, which supportts his argument

[TenTigers]

I stopped reading your post right here .

I think that's really the issue. Perhaps had you continued to read, you may have understood what was being said.

Let me ask you, how much of the Wing Chun system did you learn? How much time was spent training strictly Wing Chun? What exactly did you get out of it?

How much of SPM did you learn? How much time was spent training strictly SPM?
What exactly did you get out of it?

How much Hsing=Yi, and Yi-Ch'uan did you learn? How much time was spent learning strictly that? What exactly did you get out of it?

Share your experiences.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will say this, if I was to start someone off with a MA(s), someone with no prior MA experience, it would be Judo for grappling and MT for striking.
They are both simple to learn, effective for virtually everyone and are directly applicable to "self protection" very quickly.

Kung fu would not be a good first choice for an absolute beginner, neither with BJJ.
Why?
Both are/tend to be overly specialized.

[bawang]

kung fu SHOULD be easy to learn. chambered punching is just brawling and gives u enuf power as a beginner to hurt people. things are convoluted today, people give multiple complex useless applications to simple techniques. i think stuff are harder to learn for no reason and benefit.

[TenTigers]

You are right about non-BJJ schools incorporating the stuff and I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, kudos to them for trying to expand their knowledge. On the other hand, all too often one doesn't know what they don't know.

We recently had a big tournament down here and it was night and day between the straight BJJ schools and the karate/BJJ schools. None of them placed. They were generally thrown and submitted for the same reasons I stated..... they were overwhelmed, unable to escape positions. So they exhausted themselves struggling and easy to submit.


exactly. there is a difference between going to a school which does nothing but grappling, and going to a scholl where it is "part of the curriculum."
Doesn't matter if the grappling is BJJ, Greco-Roman, whatever. The fact that it is being totally focused on, and the person is training these skills in isolation.
Total emersion, vs bits n bobs. The end reults will always favor the person who trained thoroughly.
it is simple math. Hours training equals skill developed.

[lkfmdc]

I haven't had my coffee yet this morning so that may contribute, but I am not sure what we are arguing about here at all?

I just spent this whole weekend doing our annual training camp. That means we had me and Ian Morgan (San Da), Carmine Zocchi (BJJ), Jeremy Bellrose (Muay Thai) and George Pardos (wrestling) all in the same room for like 15 hours showing people technique from a variety of sources.

A lot of times, in my experience, when you do stuff like this what comes out is how "the same" most of the stuff is... ie it either works or it doesn't.

The exceptions, and this is why the MMA approach so appeals to me, is that when you mix and strip away the restrictions of certain contexts, you find MORE. When you are no longer looking through the exclusive glasses on ONE METHOD you see more options, more technique, more everything

Of course, you could argue this used to be the norm in TCMA, the long hand guy vs the short hand guy, the internal vs the external, the shuai jiao guy vs the striker

YOU SHOULD NOTE THAT IN THESE STORIES BOTH SIDES USUALLY LEARNED SOMETHING AND BENEFITED

[Knifefighter]

"
The fact is, most people have not really gotten far enough into their style to make an educated assessment. Certainly not you. You have DABBLED in a little bit of Gung-Fu. Sure, you picked up some cool stuff and some skills, But you never stayed long enough or trained contnuously enough to really understand TCMA.
The fact is that Ray's kung fu skills were better and more real than 99.9% of all other kung fu guys out there.

[TenTigers]

The fact is that Ray's kung fu skills were better and more real than 99.9% of all other kung fu guys out there.

I will agree, with one caveat:
Ray is a fighter. Anyone who fights will have better fighting skills than those who don't.
I wouldn't say he has better Kung-Fu skills, because his fights-those that he showed, did not show Kung-Fu structure or technique. I am not talking about posing, but basic structural alignments that should be developed after years of training. His fights showed him up on his toes, all upper body, none of the sheilding he spoke of, and none of the techniques, but alot of wild swinging and punching.
**** effective too. No doubt. The kid can fight, and is strong and tough.
But it ain't Kung-Fu.


but..

I would bet that Ray's BJJ technique shows all the proper structures and alignments a good BJJ practitioner should posess.

[Knifefighter]

I wouldn't say he has better Kung-Fu skills, because his fights-those that he showed, did not show Kung-Fu structure or technique. I am not talking about posing, but basic structural alignments that should be developed after years of training. His fights showed him up on his toes, all upper body, none of the sheilding he spoke of, and none of the techniques, but alot of wild swinging and punching.

Could you please post a link to someone who is fighting showing that structure and technique.

[diego]

Really, this is not a BJJ vs Kung Fu argument. It's a BJJ vs Striking argument.

If a BJJ player double-legs a Muay Thai fighter, he's going to have the same issues.

If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more 'pure' striking arts. We all know most CMA places don't train with the same intensity as sport clubs, which is usually why they get stomped in competition.

I was thinking about this last night...why do you never see ground game in cma but they have all of the wrist and neck locks in standup chinna...it's easier to break the guys wrist when he's on his back than when he is upright as he will dance with you...you gotta kick his knees out to apply the chinna...on the ground you have to lock in place before he an roll, standing he can twist and run...

why didn't cma guys have 100 years of history creating the ground fighting fad instead of the brazilians...why didn't the japanese have the ground game owned like the brazilians do to this day? maybe tma is society based they expect attackers with knives and maybe bjj is sports based...is there history of bjj masters 50 years ago taking any challlenger with weapons?.

[diego]

Could you please post a link to someone who is fighting showing that structure and technique.

it's not full contact but this shows the kung fu keep charging his center principle, i like this dude is bigger than him but he keeps ***** smacking him out of the cricle and dude has to pull up his pants :)

[Knifefighter]

I was thinking about this last night...why do you never see ground game in cma but they have all of the wrist and neck locks in standup chinna...it's easier to break the guys wrist when he's on his back than when he is upright as he will dance with you...you gotta kick his knees out to apply the chinna...on the ground you have to lock in place before he an roll, standing he can twist and run...

why didn't cma guys have 100 years of history creating the ground fighting fad instead of the brazilians...why didn't the japanese have the ground game owned like the brazilians do to this day? maybe tma is society based they expect attackers with knives and maybe bjj is sports based...is there history of bjj masters 50 years ago taking any challlenger with weapons?.

There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.

[David Jamieson]

There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.

well....yes there is, but it didn't work to well so it never got passed down in the oral traditions.


having said that, there are cultural barriers to rolling around like animals that some communities just can't get passed and because of that, they lack in particular areas of tactical development. :)

having said that, in this day and age, if you put a few adepts in a room, they will all walk away with something that each has learned from each other...but I think ross more or less already pointed that out.

thing is, as soon as you say yours is where it's at, it's not anymore.

keep emptying your cup, don't pour it out, drink it!

[diego]

There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.

you've read all of the ching and ming manuscripts?:D japanese have samurai tradition all comers disappeared while those left worked for the emperor and from this they formed empty hand jj and then streamlined it to judo going into the sport aspect of ma as the emperor banned swords and guns were becoming rampant...

tma cma and jma is gentleman's culture bjj is a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma's until the ufc started blending muay thai...

[TenTigers]

Could you please post a link to someone who is fighting showing that structure and technique.

Explain what you are asking, and why.

[diego]

it's not full contact but this shows the kung fu keep charging his center principle, i like this dude is bigger than him but he keeps ***** smacking him out of the cricle and dude has to pull up his pants :)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=XFJUwCqHUE8

forgot the link lol

[YouKnowWho]

This post is very funny. It's like you go to China and tell those Chinese "Why American is more civilized than Chinese".

You can go to a boxing gym and tell those boxers "How important the Judo is". You can also go to a Judo clue and tell those Judo Guys "How important the boxing is".

[Ray Pina]

If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more 'pure' striking arts.

In principle I'd have to agree with that. Though boxers and kick boxers train it as well without training it per se. Just like they don't go on and on for hours about mechanics and just tell you to drop the knee and twist the waist to put the body into the punch.

[Ray Pina]

u dont need to put down and insult kung fu. i put work and efort into my kung fu.

I appreciate your post.

Please understand, this was not posted as a criticism. I have gained from training Kung Fu. This was a post about time, economy and return on investment.

[Ray Pina]

You mentioned in the past that kung fu people are using the reputations of past masters to show the effectiveness of their systems.
Sort of... closer to my feelings is that white, well-to-do folks studied with the Chinese who were available in NYC and were a) fooled into the superiority of Southern Styles, when they are not held in high regard in China itself and B) either turned a blind eye after years of study when they realized they can not match western boxers or realized they could also profit from selling such fantasy. Many actually believe what they are selling though.... that little Johnny can be a bad a$$ without actually training and living like one. Three days a week at the kwoon, some horse stance and form work, a little lion dancing. And oh, of course he can always just poke out an eye.



You've also states that you can't seem to win a match even with all your BJJ training. If YOU haven't won using it then how do you know how effective it really is?
I'm No. 2 in my league's weight class right now.


Until you start winning consecutively you haven't proven that what you are studying is any better than what kung fu does.

This is a true statement. But I don't train to prove or disprove any style. I train to be the best martial artists I can be. I pay attention to what everybody else is doing simply as a matter of reconnaissance.

However, my record has nothing to do with the reality of my first statement. Don't kill the message bearer.

[Ray Pina]

I think that's really the issue. Perhaps had you continued to read, you may have understood what was being said.

Let me ask you, how much of the Wing Chun system did you learn? How much time was spent training strictly Wing Chun? What exactly did you get out of it?

How much of SPM did you learn? How much time was spent training strictly SPM?
What exactly did you get out of it?

How much Hsing=Yi, and Yi-Ch'uan did you learn? How much time was spent learning strictly that? What exactly did you get out of it?

Share your experiences.
I hate to have to share my past as some sort of justification because it's a waist of time, I'd rather talk about new, current things. But, AGAIN, I trained Hung Gar and Wing Chun with one group 3 to four days a week for about five years. I trained Souther Mantis with another group for about 3.5 years during the latter part of that five.

Wing Chun was cool. Learned the first three forms and did a lot of chi sau (light contact) which I liked. My sifu taught me a lot of cool traps, etc.

Hung Gar, surprisingly, I did not like. At least the way it was being trained where I studied. Too much form. Too much weapons form. Students too caught up on being seniors based on form. No fighting.

The Southern Mantis was really up my ally with Sifu Mark. Rounds of bag work as warm up. The head gear and full sparring or head gear and full contact chi sau with quick stoppage. This training opened my eyes into proper training. I wish I could train with this group 2 days a week now.

Hsing-I, or, more importantly, my time with Master Chan, was priceless. And it cost me a lot in time, emotions, etc. It wasn't easy and I'd be lucky if I could say I got 5% of what he was offering.

All these claims aside, I do the best with what I got. I look for what I like or what I feel I need at the time. Truth be told, I think most good fighters are that way from the start, it's an attitude, a will inside. Now it's a matter of being a good fighter amongst good fighters. And then maybe one day a great fighter.

[Ray Pina]

The fact is that Ray's kung fu skills were better and more real than 99.9% of all other kung fu guys out there.

I haven't posted video of me knocking anyone around in a while so people forget. I'm into serious fights now so it does me no good to show anything.

Thank you though. And Happy New Year.

[Ray Pina]

Could you please post a link to someone who is fighting showing that structure and technique.


I've done it. Those who have the eyes and will to see it have seen it. It's never going to look perfect. Hell, the other guy is trying to break my structure and shielding.

[Ray Pina]

You can go to a boxing gym and tell those boxers "How important the Judo is". You can also go to a Judo clue and tell those Judo Guys "How important the boxing is".

This is true. And of there were people there who wanted to be complete fighters they would be wise to listen.

I guess I came to the Kung Fu club and said hey, if you want to be a better warrior put down the lion head, put out the incense and let me show you how to pass the guard.

[diego]

This is true. And of there were people there who wanted to be complete fighters they would be wise to listen.

I guess I came to the Kung Fu club and said hey, if you want to be a better warrior put down the lion head, put out the incense and let me show you how to pass the guard.

Ray do you have any of your matches online? I missed them when you posted them :)

[MasterKiller]

I was thinking about this last night...why do you never see ground game in cma but they have all of the wrist and neck locks in standup chinna...it's easier to break the guys wrist when he's on his back than when he is upright as he will dance with you...you gotta kick his knees out to apply the chinna...on the ground you have to lock in place before he an roll, standing he can twist and run...

why didn't cma guys have 100 years of history creating the ground fighting fad instead of the brazilians...why didn't the japanese have the ground game owned like the brazilians do to this day? maybe tma is society based they expect attackers with knives and maybe bjj is sports based...is there history of bjj masters 50 years ago taking any challlenger with weapons?.

RNC is Chin Na. Armbars are Chin Na.

Too many CMA people focus almost exclusively on sh1tty wrist locks as their Chin Na, which offer no body control at all and really are only useful in disarming a sword, anyway. Standing wrist locks were never about empty-hand. But like most CMA, they started with weapons work, and then tried to extrapolate those moves to empty hand techniques.

[YouKnowWho]

why do you never see ground game in cma?.
I believe the main purpose of the CMA training is to learn how to use cold weapon such as knife, sword, staff, and spear. The open hand fight was never the main goal. This also explain why CMA doesn't have "spin back kick" and "flying side kick". If you hold a 7 feet heavy and sharp Maio Dao then I don't think I will try to kick your head like a TKD guy does.

When the cold weapon has been replaced by the hot weapon in the past 200 years, CMA lost their main purpose and "open hands combat" started to become more important than the weapon combat.

If you only care about combat and not sport, for $9.99 you can have good ground skill as every MMA guy has. Just image if you have a ring like this on your finger and how much it can improve your mat work.

http://www.thejewelrycasket.com/servlet/the-248/Triple-Spike-Ring-(Size/Detail

If you can understand some Chinese then the following movie clip may explain what ancient Chinese thinking. Some people just didn't want to follow any rules but to win. Also you don't need to train any kick if you have a pair of shoes like this (toward the end of this clip).

http://johnswang.com/sc23.wmv

This is one of my favor jokes:

A MMA guy challenged a CMA guy. During the challenge time, the CMA guy appeared with a Guan Dao in his hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuBNTXS1SIY

The MMA guy said, "This is not the challenge that I had in mind." The CMA guy said, "You initials the challenge and I set the rules".

[TenTigers]

Master Killer sez,
"If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more 'pure' striking arts. We all know most CMA places don't train with the same intensity as sport clubs, which is usually why they get stomped in competition."
__________________






In principle I'd have to agree with that. Though boxers and kick boxers train it as well without training it per se. Just like they don't go on and on for hours about mechanics and just tell you to drop the knee and twist the waist to put the body into the punch.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

am I missing something here?

[TenTigers]

I hate to have to share my past as some sort of justification because it's a waist of time, I'd rather talk about new, current things. But, AGAIN, I trained Hung Gar and Wing Chun with one group 3 to four days a week for about five years. I trained Souther Mantis with another group for about 3.5 years during the latter part of that five.

Wing Chun was cool. Learned the first three forms and did a lot of chi sau (light contact) which I liked. My sifu taught me a lot of cool traps, etc.

Hung Gar, surprisingly, I did not like. At least the way it was being trained where I studied. Too much form. Too much weapons form. Students too caught up on being seniors based on form. No fighting.

The Southern Mantis was really up my ally with Sifu Mark. Rounds of bag work as warm up. The head gear and full sparring or head gear and full contact chi sau with quick stoppage. This training opened my eyes into proper training. I wish I could train with this group 2 days a week now.

Hsing-I, or, more importantly, my time with Master Chan, was priceless. And it cost me a lot in time, emotions, etc. It wasn't easy and I'd be lucky if I could say I got 5% of what he was offering.

All these claims aside, I do the best with what I got. I look for what I like or what I feel I need at the time. Truth be told, I think most good fighters are that way from the start, it's an attitude, a will inside. Now it's a matter of being a good fighter amongst good fighters. And then maybe one day a great fighter.

ok, well that explains alot. Now I understand where you're coming from. ;)

I will speak no more on this.

[CFT]

I wouldn't say he has better Kung-Fu skills, because his fights-those that he showed, did not show Kung-Fu structure or technique. I am not talking about posing, but basic structural alignments that should be developed after years of training. His fights showed him up on his toes, all upper body, none of the sheilding he spoke of, and none of the techniques, but alot of wild swinging and punching.

but..

I would bet that Ray's BJJ technique shows all the proper structures and alignments a good BJJ practitioner should posess.Sorry in advance TT for selectively quoting your post. But doesn't this raise a red flag for you and prove Ray's argument about return of investment (in training time)?

He has done what 2-3 years BJJ training compared to 10yrs+ of kung fu but shows better structure in the former. He has the same attributes, the same attitude to training in both cases. What is going wrong in CMA and how can it be addressed?

[David Jamieson]

The whole spirit and intention of this thread is "up yours" kungfu guys.

Ray doesn't get that people want their cultural trappings, their belts and their rituals, their incense and their lion dance and their happy dim sums with their new brothers and sisters. They want this mixed in with their training and would forgo the latter for more of the former. When people are ready to fight, they'll fight.

That's cool. :)

[Pork Chop]

tma cma and jma is gentleman's culture bjj is a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma's until the ufc started blending muay thai...

I believe you have finally smoked yourself ret@rded....

BJJ is also considered "gentleman's culture" as Gracie Barra and Brazilian Top Team classes were actually held in gentlemen's gymnasiums. Average folks couldn't afford the training.
Luta Livre (Esportiva) was more for common folks and was a bit more eclectic in its background.
They often fought each other in Vale Tudo matches.

Funny you list muay thai as the end to "a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma's".
Muay thai probably has some of the poorest practitioners in terms of monetary wealth.
We're talking kids getting sold into muay thai gyms in order to fight for money and pay off their parents' debts. The average muay thai guy in Thailand is not rolling in the dough.
It's pretty common for westerners going to Thailand to train to be asked "Why the heck are you doing this? You don't HAVE to..."

Judo's a relatively young art, but exploded in popularity quickly.
Judo was taught as part of public school for most of the 20th century.

Chinese & Okinawan martial arts have always had very family-centered groups.
Before the advent of commercial schools, it was usually more about the family or village one came from.

[TenTigers]

CFT-Ray addressed this.
Check your PM's

[Reality_Check]

There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.
well....yes there is, but it didn't work to well so it never got passed down in the oral traditions.

No offense but this seems rather nonsensical. If it was never passed down in the oral traditions (and I'm assuming that by specifying oral you also mean there is no written tradition), then how can you state that there is history?

[David Jamieson]

No offense but this seems rather nonsensical. If it was never passed down in the oral traditions (and I'm assuming that by specifying oral you also mean there is no written tradition), then how can you state that there is history?

the failure of the boxer rebellion and their "spirit boxing".

[Reality_Check]

the failure of the boxer rebellion and their "spirit boxing".

Ah...I forgot about that. Thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the failure of the boxer rebellion and their "spirit boxing".

Failure?
Only in the sense that they lost and their chi didn't work and all their training was BS, other than that, it was a success.
:D

[Knifefighter]

I've done it. Those who have the eyes and will to see it have seen it. It's never going to look perfect. Hell, the other guy is trying to break my structure and shielding.
Actually, my point was that you showed what structure and technique from CMA should look like in a real fight. The clueless, theoretical non-fighters such as Ten Tigers walk around thinking that CMA structure and technique is going to look what they think it looks like based on the theoretical postural non-fight training that they do and then put you down because of their cluelessness.

Notice how when I ask for an example of what "real" CMA posture and technique looks like under the pressure of fighting an opponent, they can never come up with a real example.

[bawang]

the boxers practiced choi lei fut tang lang mizong and tan tui and many more
honor harmony fist is a combination of the best martial arts at the time
thousands of kung fu masters died hundreds of styles went extinct please have some respect instead of saying the predictable "LOLZ THEY GOT SHOOT BY GUNS WHERES UR CHI NOW ROFL"

[TenTigers]

nice try Knifefighter, but no, once again it is you who are clueless.
Only an idiot, or someone with very little understanding would expect picture perfect structure to be shown in realtime. I expect this type of comment from a teenager, just beginning in MA.
hense, your opinions, which are based on your limited exposure to TCMA.
But frankly, you don't know enough to even have an opinion, let alone a voice on the subject.

However, Ray showed ZERO structure.There is a world of difference between having structure and technique, and being up on your toes, bodyweight past your balance point and flailing.

Granted, he did not have enough proper training under his belt when he went out there, and I am sure with correction by his Sifu, he would have made these adjustments, but he and his Sifu had a falling out, and he wasn't getting the support he wanted.
Training structure should be ingrained in the body, and yes, under pressure it will certainly not be ideal, it certainly will not look like a form, or a movie, or a comic book. Are you following me? But there will be some.

It should come through drilling. Forms can help, but are not neccesary. Boxers don't practice forms, but they are taught proper structure. You learn the stance, how to properly hold your hands, tuck your chin, foot placement-stance,You learn the jab, and only the jab, and don't go onto anything else until the structure (form) is correct.


Boxers certainly display structure and form. It doesn't all go out the window as soon as the bell is rung.
Why is it that you cannot make that distinction?

You of all people should know this. You cannot do contact stick fighting without proper footwork, and form-which would dictate your movement, striking, recovery, etc. Were you not taught this? or did you just pick up a stick and flail like a maniac? I give you more credit than that.
There is correct structure and form in grappling-even the simplest lock and chokes would not work if the form were not correct, yes? Remember when you learned your first techniques? Sometimes we forget what it was like when we first started.
again,
why is it that you cannot make this distinction?

What happened to you, Knifefighter? Did some bad man in satin pajamas touch you where your bathing suit is, and you are making a connection between Uncle Larry and TCMA? It's over. Let it go. You are all grown up now, and he can't hurt you ever,ever, again.
Now, c'mon, little soldier. Take a deep breath. Hold your head up high. Gimmie a hug.
(watch your hands, though):eek::p:D

[WinterPalm]

I think standing grappling and takedown avoidance/ability are the most important...if you can keep the fight standing and do your thing, good, if you can take it down and do your thing, good...but without stand up clinch fighting, you can't do this. BJJ is useless if you can't get to the ground, much like most stand up striking.

[Shaolinlueb]

bull****. you know this forum. it will only lead to the usual *******s,er, suspects shooting their mouths off.


oh exactly, and this is on what now, page 4?

[TenTigers]

oh exactly, and this is on what now, page 4?

DOH!:eek:


ya got me there, bro.

[diego]

I believe you have finally smoked yourself ret@rded....

BJJ is also considered "gentleman's culture" as Gracie Barra and Brazilian Top Team classes were actually held in gentlemen's gymnasiums. Average folks couldn't afford the training.
Luta Livre (Esportiva) was more for common folks and was a bit more eclectic in its background.
They often fought each other in Vale Tudo matches.

Funny you list muay thai as the end to "a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma's".
Muay thai probably has some of the poorest practitioners in terms of monetary wealth.
We're talking kids getting sold into muay thai gyms in order to fight for money and pay off their parents' debts. The average muay thai guy in Thailand is not rolling in the dough.
It's pretty common for westerners going to Thailand to train to be asked "Why the heck are you doing this? You don't HAVE to..."

Judo's a relatively young art, but exploded in popularity quickly.
Judo was taught as part of public school for most of the 20th century.

Chinese & Okinawan martial arts have always had very family-centered groups.
Before the advent of commercial schools, it was usually more about the family or village one came from.
according to robert smith kimura kicked helio gracies ass broke his arm and everything...royce and them came up in the 80's and 90's fighting bar room brawlers in the ufc and having wrestle fests on brazilian beaches...your long ass post is saying what now? muay thai is the end of history retard.

[Lucas]

its like the saying; "dont bring a knife to a gunfight"

groundfighting, and the knowledge, experience, and understanding of, is as important as striking in todays world of combat.

pretty much any area. street, or sport. the degree's may change as to how you are going to alot your time for each particular aspect of combat. but the fact remains that if you dont know the ground, some kid with 2 years experience may get past your guard, sweep you, and pound you into the ground.

no body wants that. so everybody needs to learn how to use a gun instead of showing up with only part of the picture.

its evolution of combat basics. what does one need in order to prevail in todays combat world?

understanding of striking and groundfighting are both required, or you will not be up to par.

[Kansuke]

understanding of striking and groundfighting are both required, or you will not be up to par.



Hard to argue with that.

[Pork Chop]

Whether you did it intentionally or not, you set up a contrast between CMA + JMA and BJJ. Your comment that CMA + JMA were "gentleman's arts" implies that they were too high brow; while your comment that BJJ was taking out "ghetto dudes" means that they were more "street".

This simply is not true.

First off BJJ comes directly from the JMA tradition via Maeda so putting down JMA and building up BJJ is just silly.

Second, JMA is/was taught to all kids in Japanese public education, regardless of social status; the Gracies on the other hand were/are wealthy & ran their school in a "high class" gymnasium.

Helio was active in the 50s but so was Carlson Gracie.
Rolls Gracie was active in the 70s.
Helio got taken out by Kimura (a JMA-ist, mind you) in 55, video exists of this fight - no relying on Robert W Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44wd7GXgep4

EDIT: The point being that these guys made their reputation fighting (and some times losing) to established TMAists. Not just thugs.

"bjj is a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma's until the ufc started blending muay thai..."
Whether intentional or not, this phrase, when combined with your earlier statement seems to lump in muay thai with the "gentlemanly arts" of CMA & JMA.
This is hilarious if you know how ghetto the background that most muay thai fighters come from.

[diego]

I meant to say jjj went soft after ww2 while bjj grew to worldwide recognition because imo brazil is a tough land people fight a lot from what I've heard wheras the Japanese started focusing on the artistic aspects of tma creating **** like aikido...jjj didn't start the ufc Royce and his bro's and cousins did as they grew up fighting in a family with over 70 years of live sparring again I imagine because Brazil is such a live place compared to most popular destinations.
I'm just being a **** really tma vs mma isn't even a debate the issue is 90 % of the population is out of shape:

[diego]

Sports Illustrated
December 26. 1960

The Soft American
By President-elect John F. Kennedy

Beginning more than 2,500 years ago, from all quarters of the Greek world men thronged every four years to the sacred grove of Olympia, under the shadow of Mount Cronus, to compete in the most famous athletic contests of history—the Olympian games.

During the contest a sacred truce was observed among all the states of Greece as the best athletes of the Western world competed in boxing and foot races, wrestling and chariot races for the wreath of wild olive which was the prize of victory. When the winners returned to their home cities to lay the Olympian crown in the chief temples they were greeted as heroes and received rich rewards. For the Greeks prized physical excellence and athletic skills among man’s greatest goals and among the prime foundations of a vigorous state.

Thus the same civilizations which produced some of our highest achievements of philosophy and drama, government and art, also gave us a belief in the importance of physical soundness which has become a part of Western tradition; from the mens sana in corpore sano of the Romans to the British belief that the playing fields of Eaton brought victory on the battlefields of Europe. This knowledge, the knowledge that the physical well-being of the citizen is an important foundation for the vigor and vitality of all the activities of the nation, is as old as Western civilization itself. But it is a knowledge which today, in American, we are in danger of forgetting.

The first indication of a decline in the physical strength and ability of young Americans became apparent among United States soldiers in the early stages of the Korean War. The second came when figures were released showing that almost one out of every two young American was being rejected by Selective Service as mentally, morally or physically unfit. But the most startling demonstration of the general physical decline of American youth came when Dr. Hans Kraus and Dr. Sonja Weber revealed the results of 15 years of research centering in the Posture Clinic of New York’s Columbia-Presbyterian Hospital—results of physical fitness tests given to 4,264 children in this country and 2,870 children in Austria, Italy and Switzerland.

The findings showed that despite our unparalleled standard of living, despite our good food and our many playgrounds, despite our emphasis on school athletics, American youth lagged far behind Europeans in physical fitness. Six tests for muscular strength and flexibility were given; 57.9% of the American children failed one or more of these tests, while only 8.7% of the European youngsters failed.

A Consistent Decline

Especially disheartening were the results of the five strength tests: 35.7% of American children failed one or more of these, while only 1.1% of the Europeans failed, and among Austrian and Swiss youth the rate of failure was as low as .5%.

As a result of the alarming Kraus-Weber findings President Eisenhower created a Council on Youth Fitness at the Cabinet level and appointed a Citizens Advisory Committee on the Fitness of American Youth, composed of prominent citizens interested in fitness. Over the past five years the physical fitness of American youth has been discussed in forums, by committees and in leading publications. A 10-point program for physical fitness has been publicized and promoted. Our schools have been urged to give increased attention to the physical well-being of their students. Yet there has been no noticeable improvement. Physical fitness tests conducted last year in Britain and Japan showed that the youth of those countries were considerably more fit than our own children. And the annual physical fitness tests for freshman at Yale University show a consistent decline in the prowess of young American; 51& of the class of 1951 passed the tests, 43% of the class of 1956 passed, and only 38%, a little more than a third, of the class of 1960 succeeded, in passing the not overly rigorous examination.

Of course, physical tests are not infallible. They can distort the true health picture. There are undoubtedly many American youths and adults whose physical fitness matches and exceeds the best of other lands.

But the harsh fact of the matter is that there is also an increasingly large number of young Americans who are neglecting their bodies—whose physical fitness is not what it should be—who are getting soft. And such softness on the part of individual citizens can help to strip and destroy the vitality of a nation.

For the physical vigor of our citizens is one of America’s most precious resources. If we waste and neglect this resource, if we allow it to dwindle and grow soft then we will destroy much of our ability to meet the great and vital challenges which confront our people. We will be unable to realize our full potential as a nation.

Throughout our history we have been challenged to armed conflict by nations which sought to destroy our independence or threatened our freedom. The young men of America have risen to those occasions, giving themselves freely to the rigors and hardships of warfare. But the stamina and strength which the defense of liberty requires are not the product of a few weeks’ basic training or a month’s conditioning. These only come from bodies which have been conditioned by a lifetime of participation in sports and interest in physical activity. Our struggles against aggressors throughout our history have been won on the playgrounds and corner lots and fields of America.

Thus, in a very real and immediate sense, our growing softness, our increasing lack of physical fitness, is a menace to our security.

However, we do not, like the ancient Spartans, wish to train the bodies of our youth to make them more effective warriors. It is our profound hope and expectation that Americans will never again have to expend their strength in armed conflict.

But physical fitness is as vital to the activities of peace as to those of war, especially when our success in those activities may well determine the future of freedom in the years to come. We face in the Soviet Union a powerful and implacable adversary determined to show the world that only the Communist system possesses the vigor and determination necessary to satisfy awakening aspirations for progress and the elimination of poverty and want. To meet the challenge of this enemy will require determination and will and effort on the part of all American. Only if our citizens are physically fit will they be fully capable of such an effort.

For physical fitness is not only one of the most important keys to a healthy body; it is the basis of dynamic and creative intellectual activity. The relationship between the soundness of the body and the activities of the mind is subtle and complex. Much is not yet understood. But we do know what the Greeks knew: that intelligence and skill can only function at the peak of their capacity when the body is healthy and strong; that hardy spirits and tough minds usually inhabit sound bodies.

In this sense, physical fitness is the basis of all the activities of our society. And if our bodies grow soft and inactive, if we fail to encourage physical development and prowess, we will undermine our capacity for thought, for work and for the use of those skills vital to an expanding and complex America.

Thus the physical fitness of our citizens is a vital prerequisite to America’s realization of its full potential as a nation, and to the opportunity of each individual citizen to make full and fruitful use of his capacities.

It is ironic that at a time when the magnitude of our dangers makes the physical fitness of our citizens a matter of increasing importance, it takes greater effort and determination than ever before to build the strength of our bodies. The age of leisure and abundance can destroy vigor and muscle tone as effortlessly as it can gain time. Today human activity, the labor of the human body, is rapidly being engineered out of working life. By the 1970’s, according to many economists, the man who works with his hands will be almost extinct.

Many of the routine physical activities which earlier Americans took for granted are no longer part of our daily life. A single look at the packed parking lot of the average high school will tell us what has happened to the traditional hike to school that helped to build young bodies. The television set, the movies and the myriad conveniences and distractions of modern life all lure our young people away from the strenuous physical activity that is the basis of fitness in youth and in later life.

[1bad65]

However, Ray showed ZERO structure.There is a world of difference between having structure and technique, and being up on your toes, bodyweight past your balance point and flailing.

Granted, he did not have enough proper training under his belt when he went out there, and I am sure with correction by his Sifu, he would have made these adjustments, but he and his Sifu had a falling out, and he wasn't getting the support he wanted.

Then how do you explain Sifu Rudy Abel with his 20 years of Kung-Fu training having no structure or technique and flailing about in his fight?

[Laukarbo]

Then how do you explain Sifu Rudy Abel with his 20 years of Kung-Fu training having no structure or technique and flailing about in his fight?


he actually had structure and didnt do too bad..well he lost but at some points of the fight it could have turned out differently if the ref didnt stop the fight when they got too close to the ropes for example..

anyway,another pointless debate going on here...
u are always only as good as you train no matter what style...

:rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

I meant to say jjj went soft after ww2 while bjj grew to worldwide recognition because imo brazil is a tough land people fight a lot from what I've heard wheras the Japanese started focusing on the artistic aspects of tma




Because life in Japan was so easy and comfortable after WWII? :rolleyes:


'People' are tough everywhere. That kind of argument is just silly.

[Kansuke]

he actually had structure and didnt do too bad..



"Didn't do too bad"?! What fight did you watch?

[Ray Pina]

the failure of the boxer rebellion and their "spirit boxing".

The Boxer Rebellion was not a matter of armed master vs. armed master. It was armed Chinese vs unarmed Christians and foreigners. And then it turned into something else when the numerically inferior foreigners with weapons arrived.

[Eric Olson]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... the least space and amount of movement required to deliver power, the better.

I enjoy this technique and find scoring very easily against more "traditional" boxers and kick boxers. The "problem" is, knock outs are not very likely against a fresh, eager fighter. AFter a few engagements, the element of surprise has been lost. And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.

It's the truth.

That's a pretty broad generalization considering there are reportedly over 300 styles of kung fu. In CLF, for example, the focus isn't on intercepting but rather overwhelming your opponent with a continuous barrage of attacks from all directions.

EO

[Ray Pina]

Notice how when I ask for an example of what "real" CMA posture and technique looks like under the pressure of fighting an opponent, they can never come up with a real example.

Oh yes, I understood. And to think how many years some have dedicated to their one true art.... you'd expect evidence to be overflowing.

But...

[Pork Chop]

I meant to say jjj went soft after ww2 while bjj grew to worldwide recognition because imo brazil is a tough land people fight a lot from what I've heard wheras the Japanese started focusing on the artistic aspects of tma creating **** like aikido...jjj didn't start the ufc Royce and his bro's and cousins did as they grew up fighting in a family with over 70 years of live sparring again I imagine because Brazil is such a live place compared to most popular destinations.
I'm just being a **** really tma vs mma isn't even a debate the issue is 90 % of the population is out of shape:

Japan doesn't have guns.
Kids still fight in the streets after school, with limited fear of weapons being used.

When I was doing kung fu in high school, one of the kids in our class used his stuff on almost a daily basis - he was half-fillipino and had a lot of problems with racism at his Japanese high school, not to mention an abusive older brother.

I knew kids when I was in high school over there that picked up boxing, judo, or karate for the sole purpose of protecting themselves from after school bullies.

The softening of Japan is a much more recent thing and has very little to do with Aikido.

Where would mma be without Japan?
Especially seeing as how it was making a start there technically before the first UFC...?

Safe country? Yes, but a lot of dudes still like to fight.

[David Jamieson]

The Boxer Rebellion was not a matter of armed master vs. armed master. It was armed Chinese vs unarmed Christians and foreigners. And then it turned into something else when the numerically inferior foreigners with weapons arrived.

This doesn't negate the mentality behind what happened. Many of these guys thought they actually had a chance. They didn't and by elementary deduction of the situation should have known that they had no chance.

It was essentially a chinese version of the charge of the light brigade.
In other words, just because you think you can doesn't mean you actually can.

also, in regards to rudy losing, I think it had to do with being pulled out of the freestyle fight that was happening and moving it to what anthony was more familiar with. it was only after they started form the kneeling position and went into the groundwork where rudy failed. in the standup he dominated anthony completely.

but a loss is a loss. :)

[Ray Pina]

This doesn't negate the mentality behind what happened.

I wasn't posting about the Boxers' mentality. I was pointing out that it was being used erroneously as proof of Chinese master vs master weapons fighting. There is however ample evidence suggesting a broader-than-normal case of irrationality by Kung Fu practitioners.



also, in regards to rudy losing, I think it had to do with being pulled out of the freestyle fight that was happening and moving it to what anthony was more familiar with. it was only after they started form the kneeling position and went into the groundwork where rudy failed. in the standup he dominated anthony completely.

but a loss is a loss. :)

I don't know Sifu Rudy and didn't see the fight. But I would only commend someone for putting their stuff to the test. Learning and improving is what is important.

That sifus with 20, 30 years experience but no fights comment on others putting their bodies and long term comfort at risk for something they love... it's shameful.

[1bad65]

also, in regards to rudy losing, I think it had to do with being pulled out of the freestyle fight that was happening and moving it to what anthony was more familiar with. it was only after they started form the kneeling position and went into the groundwork where rudy failed. in the standup he dominated anthony completely.

But on his feet he showed no technique. He was flailing around throwing haymakers. Despite his opponent throwing ZERO strikes, the Sifu was unable to stop him. And the fight was standing for almost a full minute. Pictures taken the next day even showed his opponent with not a mark on his face.

[Wild Monk]

This response is based on the original thread and felt no need to read the threads in between.


My response is based on that i study TCMA and MMA. I like mma but other than great conditioning mma is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu. I used to be a bouncer and trust me most troublemakers come in pairs and there is no way I am going to wrestle anyone down in a street fight now I will sweep the crap out of someone followed by a stomp and a swift sidekick to his nearest buddy who is probably coming up behind me with a yeungling bottle or heineken.

Anyone who thinks UFC is real fighting must have never been in a street fight. I can tell you I have never had a street fight which took 3 - 5 minute rounds.

P.S.
I do not condone getting in street fights for trained martial artists, it is so said seeing someone who trains to strategically destroy his opponent pound on someone who spends 8 hours of his day trying to roll the perfect blunt.. Sad so Sad.................... VIVA TCMA

[sanjuro_ronin]

But on his feet he showed no technique. He was flailing around throwing haymakers. Despite his opponent throwing ZERO strikes, the Sifu was unable to stop him. And the fight was standing for almost a full minute. Pictures taken the next day even showed his opponent with not a mark on his face.

Didn't Anthony admit he was rocked a few times?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This response is based on the original thread and felt no need to read the threads in between.


My response is based on that i study TCMA and MMA. I like mma but other than great conditioning mma is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu. I used to be a bouncer and trust me most troublemakers come in pairs and there is no way I am going to wrestle anyone down in a street fight now I will sweep the crap out of someone followed by a stomp and a swift sidekick to his nearest buddy who is probably coming up behind me with a yeungling bottle or heineken.

Anyone who thinks UFC is real fighting must have never been in a street fight. I can tell you I have never had a street fight which took 3 - 5 minute rounds.

P.S.
I do not condone getting in street fights for trained martial artists, it is so said seeing someone who trains to strategically destroy his opponent pound on someone who spends 8 hours of his day trying to roll the perfect blunt.. Sad so Sad.................... VIVA TCMA

Where do you train MMA?
Why do you think or who told you that MMA revolves around "wrestling" ?

[Knifefighter]

T
My response is based on that i study TCMA and MMA. I like mma but other than great conditioning mma is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu. I used to be a bouncer and trust me most troublemakers come in pairs and there is no way I am going to wrestle anyone down in a street fight now I will sweep the crap out of someone followed by a stomp and a swift sidekick to his nearest buddy who is probably coming up behind me with a yeungling bottle or heineken.

One of the ways you can tell someone is completely full of sh!it when they claim to have trained MMA is that they cannot see the applicability to the street and make claims about the street not having rounds, rules or referees.

And one of the ways you can tell someone has never been in a street fight in his life is how he talks about throwing all his perfect techniques against multiple opponents... and, of course, he always worked as a bouncer.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the ways you can tell someone is completely full of sh!it when they claim to have trained MMA is that they cannot see the applicability to the street and make claims about the street not having rounds, rules or referees.

And one of the ways you can tell someone has never been in a street fight in his life is how he talks about throwing all his perfect techniques against multiple opponents... and, of course, he always worked as a bouncer.

You know, you should learn to mellow out in your old age, its bad for your blood pressure Dale.
Ever thought of taking up Tai Chi?
I hear its good for the stress.
;)

[Wild Monk]

Most of the Kung Fu I have seen relies very heavily on the intercepting and or jamming of an attack and an immediate counter attack... And if it was an MMA fighter, not only would he have clinched you, he would have thrown you or at least wrestled you to the ground. At that point, if he has Jiu-Jitsu and you don't, you are at the mercy of his response to your tap or the swiftness in which the referee can come save you.


Sanjuro my response is based on this quote from the original post. 7 pages in I don't blame you for forgetting the original thread. I am simply saying that Kung Fu is not only trapping and jamming an attack it is also digging my thumb in his eye or cluthing his throat while squeezing with my 5 fingers as if it were a tennis ball and sweeping him where he is introduced to the sole of my Timberland boots.

I enjoy and respect MMA but all I can say is next time your opponent in mma goes for a double leg takedown. drop into a low bow and arrow stance and get an underhook with your lead arm then proceed to turn to a bow and arrow stance to the direction behind you but in the transition when you are going from bow & arrow to horse stance to bow & arrow. You are going to use that underhook and a turn of the waist to toss your opponent on his back. where you can follow him down into sidemount . just a little TCMA application for MMA .. again VIVA TCMA

[David Jamieson]

One of the ways you can tell someone is completely full of sh!it when they claim to have trained MMA is that they cannot see the applicability to the street and make claims about the street not having rounds, rules or referees.

And one of the ways you can tell someone has never been in a street fight in his life is how he talks about throwing all his perfect techniques against multiple opponents... and, of course, he always worked as a bouncer.

only slightly assumptive on your part kf....but, I do agree somewhat - the disparaging remarks.

mma is totally applicable to streetfights, or any fight. in fact, take away the rules and it can be downright vicious and need not involve wrestling at all. If you wind up wrestling , then wrestle, but mma doesn't dictate that it HAS to go there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro my response is based on this quote from the original post. 7 pages in I don't blame you for forgetting the original thread. I am simply saying that Kung Fu is not only trapping and jamming an attack it is also digging my thumb in his eye or cluthing his throat while squeezing with my 5 fingers as if it were a tennis ball and sweeping him where he is introduced to the sole of my Timberland boots.

I enjoy and respect MMA but all I can say is next time your opponent in mma goes for a double leg takedown. drop into a low bow and arrow stance and get an underhook with your lead arm then proceed to turn to a bow and arrow stance to the direction behind you but in the transition when you are going from bow & arrow to horse stance to bow & arrow. You are going to use that underhook and a turn of the waist to toss your opponent on his back. where you can follow him down into sidemount . just a little TCMA application for MMA .. again VIVA TCMA

I see.
Interesting, very interesting.

Note:
I assume some of you have noticed my new posting style for 2009, if you can't say anything good...say how interesting that view is.
:D

[Kansuke]

LOL, judging by what is claimed on forums, there must be A LOT more bouncers out there than I've ever noticed all the bars and clubs I've ever been to put together!

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL, judging by what is claimed on forums, there must be A LOT more bouncers out there than I've ever noticed all the bars and clubs I've ever been to put together!

That is directly applicaple to my new sig line for 2009 also.
Ask the bouncer where he bounced and when, simple enough.
In my case:
In Toronto:
The world nightclub.
Venus
Meow
G-Spot
Flamingo Road
Jillys
In Hamilton:
Monoply

All of this in the 90's.

[Wild Monk]

Whoa Knife Fighter ,

Calm down I am new to the forum and stay away from flame wars. My comparison to MMA to the street is simply stating that MMA does not prepare you for multiple opponents. I do train MMA at a gym in Lodi, NJ . Yes I was a bouncer until they required you to get a S O R A License and my boss told me I had to pay $ 340 for my license.


I did not mean to offend anyone with my post it is simply my experience.

[Knifefighter]

I enjoy and respect MMA but all I can say is next time your opponent in mma goes for a double leg takedown. drop into a low bow and arrow stance and get an underhook with your lead arm then proceed to turn to a bow and arrow stance to the direction behind you but in the transition when you are going from bow & arrow to horse stance to bow & arrow. You are going to use that underhook and a turn of the waist to toss your opponent on his back. where you can follow him down into sidemount . just a little TCMA application for MMA .. again VIVA TCMA
A quick trip to your local university wrestling room will immediately show you the problem with your theoretical non-fighting imaginings.

[Wild Monk]

Most of the guys I applied this on are decorated wrestlers who train at Team Endgame in Lodi , NJ

I am not here to hide behind avatars I thought we were here to share our personal knowledge and experience .


By the way Knife Fighter if you love wrestling so much then go bash TCMA on the wrestling forums.


Yes I like MMA but TCMA is what I love and it is who I am. Don't like it SORRY

[1bad65]

Didn't Anthony admit he was rocked a few times?

Being rocked and being defeated are two different things.

Do you admit the Sifu showed zero Kung-Fu technique?

[Knifefighter]

I did not mean to offend anyone with my post it is simply my experience in dancing around and practicing my theoretical non-fighting forms in the air against my imagined opponents.
Fixed for accuracy.

[TenTigers]

Wild Monk, don't worry about it.
There are more waving di(ks here than a West Village Bathouse,
more azoles than a proctologist's convention,
and way more special kids than the short bus can carry.
Welcome to the forum.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Being rocked and being defeated are two different things.

Do you admit the Sifu showed zero Kung-Fu technique?

I don't have much experience, any really, in Rudy's Monkey Kung fu so I don't know what it is suppose to look like.
If it is based on circular strikes and such, then I would say that he did.
One man's haymaker is another man's Chop Choi, or whatever its called.
:D
He did control the striking and stand up part, even if he wasn't able to put Anthony away.
Small consolation, yes, by true nevertheless.

[Knifefighter]

Wild Monk, don't worry about it.
There are more waving di(ks here than a West Village Bathouse,
more azoles than a proctologist's convention,
and way more special kids than the short bus can carry.

Not to mention the myraid of kung fu guys who are always kicking a$$ against multiple opponents with weapons... but somehow there seems to be a surprising lack of actual hard, substantiation of them doing something as simple and easy as using it against one unarmed person.

[Knifefighter]

Most of the guys I applied this on are decorated wrestlers who train at Team Endgame in Lodi , NJ
Well, that should be easy to substantiate then. Simply record part of your next session with them and post it on YouTube. Simple and easy... but of course we know you can't really record and post things that are only going on in your mind.

[Wild Monk]

Wild Monk, don't worry about it.
There are more waving di(ks here than a West Village Bathouse,
more azoles than a proctologist's convention,
and way more special kids than the short bus can carry.
Welcome to the forum.:D

Thanks Ten Tigers ,
I try not to take these things to heart , its just crazy how people don't respect the laws of physics when it comes to Kung Fu or even walking up the stairs for that matter I mean Jiu Jitsu is cool I look at like Kung Fu off your back. I just said its not good enough when there is more than one person. which if you ask any inner city police officer happens often.


people like KF are the kind of guys who get owned by two 16 year olds while trying to walk through a place like jersey city or downtown newark, NJ I did say walk not drive through

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks Ten Tigers ,
I try not to take these things to heart , its just crazy how people don't respect the laws of physics when it comes to Kung Fu or even walking up the stairs for that matter I mean Jiu Jitsu is cool I look at like Kung Fu off your back. I just said its not good enough when there is more than one person. which if you ask any inner city police officer happens often.


people like KF are the kind of guys who get owned by two 16 year olds while trying to walk through a place like jersey city or downtown newark, NJ I did say walk not drive through

You know, just like I am sure you didn't care for KF assumption of you, its silly to make one of him, especially since you don't know anything about him.

[Wild Monk]

you should come and try it with me. Unfortunately I do not own a digital camera and do not own a computer if you must know I post while I take my certification classes to further explore my career and I do not own a pc actually because my evenings are spent training and teaching TCMA to inner city kids who can not afford it. and the rest of my time working a part time gig to afford my rent and yes my $50 a month for MMA. But I am sorry people like you believe everyone on here is full of ***t

[Ray Pina]

The point of my original thread was really to get people thinking about the return on the time invested in training to relation to goals.

I never imagined a martial artists would have any other goal above honing his technique to the highest degree possible. The discipline, inner peace, etc., come with that. Culture. Side benefits. I'm getting a unique cultural experience training BJJ in Puerto Rico. I would assume someone would get it training wrestling in Scotland. It should be an authentic byproduct, not fashionably adorned from the get go.

Anyway, my point was that perhaps learning jiu-jitsu, right now, at this point in martial history, would be more valuable than say, learning Wing Chun. Being that one could obtain equal or better hands from a variety of sources, where as it could be argued that grounds skills can too. But I believe BJJ has proven outstanding in this area. Where as, say, Wing Chun and other Kung Fu styles, have yet to prove superiority or even equality.

This was a rational topic. Any emotion has been interjected by the insecurity of Kung Fu players.

[MasterKiller]

A quick trip to your local university wrestling room will immediately show you the problem with your theoretical non-fighting imaginings.

I learned this from a BJJ purple belt. You catch the shot with an underhook/overhook, then steer them toward the overhook side and into a side mount.

[Knifefighter]

Thanks Ten Tigers ,
I try not to take these things to heart , its just crazy how people don't respect the laws of physics when it comes to Kung Fu or even walking up the stairs for that matter I mean Jiu Jitsu is cool I look at like Kung Fu off your back.
Wild Monk,
Here is your chance to show that you are not completely full of sh!t and have never trained a single minute of Jits:

Please explain the basics of BJJ on the ground and how they are similar and dis-similar.

[Wild Monk]

Sanjuro

Everything here is in writing , I simply gave my opinion and this guy assumes im some troll making stuff up anyone who has a lil bit of understanding in TCMA and stance work will agree the technique I explained of bow & arrow with an underhook is the achilles heel to the double leg takedown.

Will it work for the single leg takedown No it will not . I am sure KF is your buddy but it is childish to assume everyone who joins this forum is some troll.

P.S.
I dig the samurai

[Knifefighter]

I learned this from a BJJ purple belt. You catch the shot with an underhook/overhook, then steer them toward the overhook side and into a side mount.
The technique is not the point.. the actual application is. If you have trained against anyone with halfway decent standing grappling, you know by experience how hard it is to pull this off against a shot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I learned this from a BJJ purple belt. You catch the shot with an underhook/overhook, then steer them toward the overhook side and into a side mount.

Which is what WM basically described.
Except he used TCMA terminology that made it seem overly complicated and impractical.

[Knifefighter]

you should come and try it with me. Unfortunately I do not own a digital camera and do not own a computer if you must know I post while I take my certification classes to further explore my career and I do not own a pc actually because my evenings are spent training and teaching TCMA to inner city kids who can not afford it. and the rest of my time working a part time gig to afford my rent and yes my $50 a month for MMA. But I am sorry people like you believe everyone on here is full of ***t
I've been around the MA scene long enough to know who is full of b.s. and who isn't. There are few guys who aren't, but you are not one of them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro

Everything here is in writing , I simply gave my opinion and this guy assumes im some troll making stuff up anyone who has a lil bit of understanding in TCMA and stance work will agree the technique I explained of bow & arrow with an underhook is the achilles heel to the double leg takedown.

Will it work for the single leg takedown No it will not . I am sure KF is your buddy but it is childish to assume everyone who joins this forum is some troll.

P.S.
I dig the samurai

Acutally, the move you described MAY work well VS a smaller and less skilled person shooting from the outside.
But it is far from an Achilles heel.
Actually, KF and I don't really "get along" that well, but I respect all that he has done in the Full Contact world.
As I respect anyone that has competed in full contact, regardless of outcome.

Thanks, the samurai is the ultimate ronin, Ogami Itto !
:D

[1bad65]

I've been around the MA scene long enough to know who is full of b.s. and who isn't. There are few guys who aren't, but you are not one of them.

You gotta love the excuses he came up with though. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Where in Lodi do you train MMA?

I'll contact the instructor and ask if the MMA he teaches "is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu".

[Wild Monk]

I train no gi , I don't like the gi because I train for MMA not jiu jitsu tournaments.

in no gi training I find my bridge work and elbows in from my kung fu comes in useful.


KF, I bet if you try some good kung fu you will find the benefits where it will help your jiu jitsu.

P.S.

Jiu jitsu is a derivative of Kung Fu.


I believe I answered the main thread which was my intention KF good luck with your training.

[Knifefighter]

Everything here is in writing , I simply gave my opinion and this guy assumes im some troll making stuff up anyone who has a lil bit of understanding in TCMA and stance work will agree the technique I explained of bow & arrow with an underhook is the achilles heel to the double leg takedown.

If you had ever trained a day of standup grappling in your life outside of your pretend kung fu "grappling", you would know that this is untrue.

Let's make the completely wild assumption, just for a second, however, that you are not completely full of sh!t. If you have trained with the level of wrestler that you claim to have trained with, you would know that there are several counters to this.

Please list them.

[Wild Monk]

Which is what WM basically described.
Except he used TCMA terminology that made it seem overly complicated and impractical.

the depth of the stance is the where the strentgh comes from Sanjuro. I was just pointing out how TCMA is applied to MMA.

[Wild Monk]

I train no gi , I don't like the gi because I train for MMA not jiu jitsu tournaments.

in no gi training I find my bridge work and elbows in from my kung fu comes in useful.


KF, I bet if you try some good kung fu you will find the benefits where it will help your jiu jitsu.

P.S.

Jiu jitsu is a derivative of Kung Fu.


I believe I answered the main thread which was my intention KF good luck with your training.


KF please read slowly

[Knifefighter]

I train no gi , I don't like the gi because I train for MMA not jiu jitsu tournaments. in no gi training I find my bridge work and elbows in from my kung fu comes in useful.
KF, I bet if you try some good kung fu you will find the benefits where it will help your jiu jitsu.
P.S.
Jiu jitsu is a derivative of Kung Fu.
I believe I answered the main thread which was my intention KF good luck with your training.

Ah, yes, the specific technical questions always weed out the bullsh!t artists.

MMA schools always teach BJJ as part of their training.

[Wild Monk]

If you had ever trained a day of standup grappling in your life outside of your pretend kung fu "grappling"

Team Endgame Lodi, NJ look them up or am i just pretending.

[MasterKiller]

MMA schools always teach BJJ as part of their training. Plenty of places train no-gi submission wrestling only.

Isn't 10th Planet all no-gi?

[1bad65]

Team Endgame Lodi, NJ look them up or am i just pretending.

I will be sending him an e-mail shortly asking if the MMA he teaches "is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu".

Can you please PM me your name so I can tell him which one of his students posted that about his school and instruction? I will be banned if I post your name on the open forum, and I promise not to.

In the mean time, you should answer KF's questions. Your silence speaks volumes...

[lkfmdc]

This thread still going? :rolleyes:

NY San Da does BJJ
NY San Da does NOT do kimono/gi
ie NY San Da does no-gi grappling (from BJJ)

(PS: we had an Eddie Bravo brown belt here recently and may try and hook up with them, they have a very cool BJJ based no-gi system)

Knifefighter, you aren't saying a gym that only does no-gi isn't a MMA gym are you?

[Knifefighter]

Plenty of places train no-gi submission wrestling only.

Isn't 10th Planet all no-gi?

No-gi is simply BJJ without the gi. 10th Planet is Eddie Bravo's place. Eddie is a BJJ Black Belt under Rigan.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter, you aren't saying a gym that only does no-gi isn't a MMA gym are you?
It's funny how many people claim familiarity with BJJ, but really don't know much about it. The fact is, most BJJ places also train no-gi. How would training no-gi BJJ make a place non-MMA?

[MasterKiller]

No-gi is simply BJJ without the gi. 10th Planet is Eddie Bravo's place. Eddie is a BJJ Black Belt under Rigan.

Well, not really. Look at how many BJJ'ers get up in arms if you promote someone in BJJ who does not do gi work. There is a discernable difference in some methods and techniques.

[Wild Monk]

I will be sending him an e-mail shortly asking if the MMA he teaches "is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu".

Can you please PM me your name so I can tell him which one of his students posted that about his school and instruction? I will be banned if I post your name on the open forum, and I promise not to.

In the mean time, you should answer KF's questions. Your silence speaks volumes...

yeah you should email him and tell him you wanna spar the kung fu guy. he will know who you are talking about and maybe we can use his place.

Eddie won't deny he teaches MMA not street fighting. what is your problem bro?

I mean seriously if my TCMA works for me that is my problem bro your renzo gracie avatar doesnt intimidate me I trained there too in Denville, NJ and guess what Team Endgame is better. when you email eddie tell him Ill be back soon just straightening out my school schedule during the week and trying to get some time off my seconde job.

[Knifefighter]

Team Endgame Lodi, NJ look them up or am i just pretending.
Then answer the questions.

[MasterKiller]

No-gi is simply BJJ without the gi. 10th Planet is Eddie Bravo's place. Eddie is a BJJ Black Belt under Rigan.

But Eddie doesn't teach BJJ.

[1bad65]

yeah you should email him and tell him you wanna spar the kung fu guy. he will know who you are talking about and maybe we can use his place.

Eddie won't deny he teaches MMA not street fighting. what is your problem bro?

I mean seriously if my TCMA works for me that is my problem bro your renzo gracie avatar doesnt intimidate me I trained there too in Denville, NJ and guess what Team Endgame is better. when you email eddie tell him Ill be back soon just straightening out my school schedule during the week and trying to get some time off my seconde job.

Gee, how the tone has changed. :rolleyes:

You said what he teaches is ""is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu". I'll be asking him about that. You did not mention sparring.

Oh, my problem is that I think your lying and full of ****.

Still waiting on your name and your answers to KF's questions.

[Knifefighter]

But Eddie doesn't teach BJJ.
LOL... What makes you think that?

[MasterKiller]

Gee, how the tone has changed. :rolleyes:

You said what he teaches is ""is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu". I'll be asking him about that. You did not mention sparring.

Oh, my problem is that I think your lying and full of ****.

Still waiting on your name and your answers to KF's questions.

Don't answer 1bad until he answers this question:

A) 1bad65 calls JFS a hom0phobe for using the term 'dyke' in a derogatory manner.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=786235&highlight=dyke#post786235

B) 1bad65 calls Hillary Clinton's friends "dykes"
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=890428&highlight=dykes#post890428

Do you not admit you are a homp0phobe and hypocrite?

[MasterKiller]

LOL... What makes you think that?

Just about every BJJ guy I know, which isn't a lot, is adamant that BJJ is strictly work. Now, I agree with your position that most submission wrestling comes from BJJ, you also have to admit that not every MMA school uses gi-work.

[1bad65]

Go **** yourself MK. Keep this thread on topic.

[David Jamieson]

That is directly applicaple to my new sig line for 2009 also.
Ask the bouncer where he bounced and when, simple enough.
In my case:
In Toronto:
The world nightclub.
Venus
Meow
G-Spot
Flamingo Road
Jillys
In Hamilton:
Monoply

All of this in the 90's.


hmmm, i worked the door too, but in winnipeg late 80's early 90's...

- the stockexchange/rockexchange on arlington (this place was rough, fight night everynight)

- the plaza on osborne (not bad, lots of bikers on crew so not many threats)

- grapes on main (this gig was sweeeet, they didn't even really need doormen and there was tons of cute chicks from the finance district woot woot)

that's it. after those, i got a real job and made more money without the risks.
never bounced in the T dot. I don't think I would either, especially not down in the district.

[Lucas]

Gee, how the tone has changed. :rolleyes:

You said what he teaches is ""is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu". I'll be asking him about that. You did not mention sparring.

Oh, my problem is that I think your lying and full of ****.

Still waiting on your name and your answers to KF's questions.

so this means you are going to spar the kungfu guy?

post the vid when its done pls

[MasterKiller]

Go **** yourself MK. Keep this thread on topic.

You spammed every thread Rudy and Fox posted on for a year. Don't go calling WHINE-ONE-ONE for that WHAMMMMMbulance just yet.

[David Jamieson]

lol.

as the teenburger turns... :p

[Knifefighter]

Just about every BJJ guy I know, which isn't a lot, is adamant that BJJ is strictly work. Now, I agree with your position that most submission wrestling comes from BJJ, you also have to admit that not every MMA school uses gi-work.
To get ranked in BJJ, you need to train with the gi. That doesn't somehow make training in no-gi not BJJ. BJJ has three forms- gi, no-gi, and vale tudo.

[Kansuke]

Most of the guys I applied this on are decorated wrestlers who train at Team Endgame in Lodi , NJ

Man, that is a load of BS. I don't buy that for a second. "Decorated" how? And under what conditions did you do this? Drilling? Half speed? That is highly suspect.

[TenTigers]

Wild Monk,
Here is your chance to show that ,,,etc,etc ad nauseum
to whom?:rolleyes:

[1bad65]

so this means you are going to spar the kungfu guy?

post the vid when its done pls

I said that???? :confused:

[MasterKiller]

To get ranked in BJJ, you need to train with the gi. That doesn't somehow make training in no-gi not BJJ. BJJ has three forms- gi, no-gi, and vale tudo.

OK, but not all no-gi work is pure BJJ, correct? Depending on the school, you can have various amounts of wrestling, Sambo, and Judo mixed in as well.

[1bad65]

Man, that is a load of BS. I don't buy that for a second. "Decorated" how? And under what conditions did you do this? Drilling? Half speed? That is highly suspect.

He tends to disappear when asked specific questions.

[Knifefighter]

OK, but not all no-gi work is pure BJJ, correct? Depending on the school, you can have various amounts of wrestling, Sambo, and Judo mixed in as well.

Most BJJ has that also. However, I'm not sure what your point is.

My point was that an MMA school is going to teach the basic positions of BJJ, as well as guard work. Anyone who has trained in one of these schools will understand those basics and can easily explain them and how they would differ from kung fu theory and technique.

[Lucas]

I said that???? :confused:

just curious if you will take him up on his friendly offer. im sure its too far away for you though.



I will be sending him an e-mail shortly asking if the MMA he teaches "is almost useless in real street fight application in comparison to kung fu".

Can you please PM me your name so I can tell him which one of his students posted that about his school and instruction? I will be banned if I post your name on the open forum, and I promise not to.

In the mean time, you should answer KF's questions. Your silence speaks volumes...


yeah you should email him and tell him you wanna spar the kung fu guy. he will know who you are talking about and maybe we can use his place.

Eddie won't deny he teaches MMA not street fighting. what is your problem bro?

I mean seriously if my TCMA works for me that is my problem bro your renzo gracie avatar doesnt intimidate me I trained there too in Denville, NJ and guess what Team Endgame is better. when you email eddie tell him Ill be back soon just straightening out my school schedule during the week and trying to get some time off my seconde job.

[Lucas]

He tends to disappear when asked specific questions.

maybe when he said he doesnt own a computer, he was telling the truth?

[MasterKiller]

Most BJJ has that also. However, I'm not sure what your point is.

My point was that an MMA school is going to teach the basic positions of BJJ, as well as guard work. Anyone who has trained in one of these schools will understand those basics and can easily explain them and how they would differ from kung fu theory and technique.

I thought you were stating that all legitimate MMA schools teach BJJ. Since BJJ to a lot of people means gi work, and since your post seemed to be targeted at Monk's claim to train no-gi only, I was trying to argue that not all schools use 'pure' BJJ to train ground fighting.

[Ray Pina]

BJJ has three forms- gi, no-gi, and vale tudo.

I love all three of them and think gi work is priceless and easily adapted to people's hooded sweatshirts, long sleeve shirts, etc.

[lkfmdc]

It's funny how many people claim familiarity with BJJ, but really don't know much about it. The fact is, most BJJ places also train no-gi. How would training no-gi BJJ make a place non-MMA?

we don't do ANY gi at all... so, according to you we aren't BJJ :rolleyes:

Carmine is a black belt under Marcelo Mello, who is a black belt under Royler (but what do we know?)

[TenTigers]

I understand why people want to learn no-gi. In Ny we have spring and summer, and people feel that they gi techniques aren't applicable, but we also have fall and winter, and there are many techniques that are directly applicable to outerwear.
And the ring of a t-shirt is plenty to choke someone out with-as I found out a few weeks ago.
Whether you are practicing for thering or the street, I firmly believe that both skills are invaluble.

[Knifefighter]

we don't do ANY gi at all... so, according to you we aren't BJJ :rolleyes:

Carmine is a black belt under Marcelo Mello, who is a black belt under Royler (but what do we know?)

No, what I am saying is that you can't get RANKED in BJJ if you don't train the with the gi.

[lkfmdc]

To get ranked in BJJ, you need to train with the gi. That doesn't somehow make training in no-gi not BJJ. BJJ has three forms- gi, no-gi, and vale tudo.

yadda yadda, we've all heard that argument before, but not everyone agrees, two noticable exceptions being of course Eddie and Carmine

I'd agree if you say you can't claim rank in the "total" of BJJ, but you are claiming rank in that school/teacher's BJJ. Ie you are earning a rank in either Eddie's method or Carmine's

[1bad65]

just curious if you will take him up on his friendly offer. im sure its too far away for you though.

Sure is. He is in the NJ area and I live in Austin, TX.

And the point we are arguing are his claims about MMAs effectiveness in the street, not his sparring ability.


maybe when he said he doesnt own a computer, he was telling the truth?

I seriously doubt it. I'm pretty sure it's just an excuse for not posting the sparring he claims he does.

[Knifefighter]

yadda yadda, we've all heard that argument before, but not everyone agrees, two noticable exceptions being of course Eddie and Carmine

I'd agree if you say you can't claim rank in the "total" of BJJ, but you are claiming rank in that school/teacher's BJJ. Ie you are earning a rank in either Eddie's method or Carmine's
A big portion of BJJ is the manipulation of clothing. If you have not learned that, you cannot know that and cannot be ranked in BJJ. You can be ranked in that specific instructor's version of no-gi BJJ, but, since you will not have knowledge of clothing manipulation in terms of submissions and control, you cannot claim rank in BJJ.

[Lucas]

Sure is. He is in the NJ area and I live in Austin, TX.






oh dang, thats a grip of distance

[Ray Pina]

A big portion of BJJ is the manipulation of clothing. If you have not learned that, you cannot know that and cannot be ranked in BJJ. You can be ranked in that specific instructor's version of no-gi BJJ, but, since you will not have knowledge of clothing manipulation in terms of submissions and control, you cannot claim rank in BJJ.

Been spending a lot of time learning the grip war lately. Setting up grips, baiting, etc.

[lkfmdc]

A big portion of BJJ is the manipulation of clothing. If you have not learned that, you cannot know that and cannot be ranked in BJJ. You can be ranked in that specific instructor's version of no-gi BJJ, but, since you will not have knowledge of clothing manipulation in terms of submissions and control, you cannot claim rank in BJJ.

according to Helio Gracie, a big part of GJJ/BJJ is the self defense and the vale tudo. Yet we both know tons of guys put on the kimono everyday, do nothing but sport BJJ and get ranked.... but those guys are "real" because they can grab the PJ's and pull on them :rolleyes:

I just don't buy it.... understand it, but don't buy it....

[Knifefighter]

according to Helio Gracie, a big part of GJJ/BJJ is the self defense and the vale tudo. Yet we both know tons of guys put on the kimono everyday, do nothing but sport BJJ and get ranked.... but those guys are "real" because they can grab the PJ's and pull on them :rolleyes:
I just don't buy it.... understand it, but don't buy it....
Helio does not set the standards for ranking in BJJ. If he did, only people who studied under his side of the family would be ranked.

We all have things we disagree with in BJJ. Personally, I believe the formal "self-defense" curriculum is total garbage.

The fact is, if BJJ ranking is important to someone, he has to train the gi.

[Wild Monk]

WOW this guy 1bad65 doesnt even believe I don't own a computer what a waste of a brain.


Let me put this in Laymens terms:

If it wasn't for Kung Fu there would be no BJJ or even JJ for that matter ok

You don't like it but it is true.

in other words BJJ is a great great grandchild of TCMA .


VIVA TCMA

[Knifefighter]

WOW this guy 1bad65 doesnt even believe I don't own a computer what a waste of a brain.


Let me put this in Laymens terms:

If it wasn't for Kung Fu there would be no BJJ or even JJ for that matter ok

You don't like it but it is true.

in other words BJJ is a great great grandchild of TCMA .
Yeah, kind of the same way the M-16 is the great, great, grandchild of the flintlock gun.

[Wild Monk]

HOW ABOUT I PUT IT THIS WAY


UFC 93 BJ Penn and GSP are training for a 5 min 5 Round war. right that is 25 minutes.



Who here has been in a 25 minute street fight ??????????????

[Knifefighter]

HOW ABOUT I PUT IT THIS WAY
blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah,

Please answer the previous technical questions.

[Wild Monk]

25 minute street fight ????????????????????????????????????


anyone ever had one????????????

other than KF the WORLD RENOWNED AUTHORITY ON MARTIAL ARTS.

[lkfmdc]

Personally, I believe the formal "self-defense" curriculum is total garbage.



On this, we agree...

As for the rest, I don't presume to tell others what their ranks mean or tell them how or what they should practice... so return the favor

[MasterKiller]

A big portion of BJJ is the manipulation of clothing. If you have not learned that, you cannot know that and cannot be ranked in BJJ. You can be ranked in that specific instructor's version of no-gi BJJ, but, since you will not have knowledge of clothing manipulation in terms of submissions and control, you cannot claim rank in BJJ.

Which also means you can't technically claim you train BJJ if you don't do gi work.

[Knifefighter]

25 minute street fight ????????????????????????????????????


anyone ever had one????????????

other than KF the WORLD RENOWNED AUTHORITY ON MARTIAL ARTS.

I think you've proven that you are pretty much clueless about anything related to fighting.

[Kansuke]

Let me put this in Laymens terms:

If it wasn't for Kung Fu there would be no BJJ or even JJ for that matter ok

You don't like it but it is true.




That is a load of bunk.

[Wild Monk]

I think you've proven that you are pretty much clueless about anything related to fighting.

Of course I have proven that you my friend as many others here have never been in a street fight and I dont mean getting your teeth bashed in by your uncle willy

[Knifefighter]

On this, we agree...

As for the rest, I don't presume to tell others what their ranks mean or tell them how or what they should practice... so return the favor

Hmm, interesting that you somehow feel that my explaining how the BJJ community works is me telling someone what they should practice.

Is somebody feeling defensive about his lack of "official" BJJ rank?

Or maybe the fact that the ranks achieved by those in his school are not recognized by the BJJ community as a whole and, as such, means less money coming in?

[TenTigers]

the Gracies created BJJ from Judo Ne-waza. Since then there have been many offshoots, each with their own curricullum. THEY decide what is and what is not a BB in THEIR BJJ, so yes-you can get a BB in BJJ with no gi-if that is their version of the system. Just like all the offshoots of Shorin-ryu.

[Wild Monk]

Hmm, interesting that you somehow feel that my explaining how the BJJ community works is me telling someone what they should practice.

Is somebody feeling defensive about his lack of "official" BJJ rank?

Or maybe the fact that the ranks achieved by those in his school are not recognized by the BJJ community as a whole and, as such, means less money coming in?

I take back everything I said KF it seems to me you ARE here to bash on anyone who a displays a ounce of knowledge. My apologies sincerely

[Wild Monk]

the Gracies created BJJ from Judo Ne-waza. Since then there have been many offshoots, each with their own curricullum. THEY decide what is and what is not a BB in THEIR BJJ, so yes-you can get a BB in BJJ with no gi-if that is their version of the system. Just like all the offshoots of Shorin-ryu.

Which are all off shoots of TCMA thank you .



VIVA TCMA

[Knifefighter]

My apologies sincerely
Apology accepted.

[MasterKiller]

the Gracies created BJJ from Judo Ne-waza. Since then there have been many offshoots, each with their own curricullum. THEY decide what is and what is not a BB in THEIR BJJ, so yes-you can get a BB in BJJ with no gi-if that is their version of the system. Just like all the offshoots of Shorin-ryu.

I disagree. Like KF said, A LOT of BJJ involves grip work. If you do not practice the grip work, you cannot rank in BJJ. You can rank is XYZ Jiu-Jitsu, but it's not BJJ or GJJ wihout the gi.

[lkfmdc]

Hmm, interesting that you somehow feel that my explaining how the BJJ community works is me telling someone what they should practice.

Is somebody feeling defensive about his lack of "official" BJJ rank?

Or maybe the fact that the ranks achieved by those in his school are not recognized by the BJJ community as a whole and, as such, means less money coming in?

LMFAO

Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today?

Read into/interpret whatever you want my friend. Actually on the East Coast we are fine, get along with most of the community, and like I said we have good "credentials".

I mostly just laugh at the fuss over Eddie Bravo, who I have no direct affiliation with. I just respect his skills and methods.

In today's MMA craze, I actually think no-gi is a HUGE plus BTW

[Knifefighter]

In today's MMA craze, I actually think no-gi is a HUGE plus BTW
I agree... however, I also believe those who are interested in self-defense are doing themselves a huge disservice by ignoring the gi.

[Lucas]

this thread has a lot of attention from grapplers at the moment so ill ask a question.

ill be starting judo in a month, and im wondering how long i should wait, or if i should wait at all before I start some form of JJ as well.

basically I started training in striking, and ive been told judo guys can be some of the harder guys to take to the ground, from there i want to develop my ground game with jiujitsu.

should i train judo and jj simultaneously ?

[Wild Monk]

Yes you can train both at the same time some schools teach Judo and BJJ together first half of class Judo and other half BJJ

[lkfmdc]

I agree... however, I also believe those who are interested in self-defense are doing themselves a huge disservice by ignoring the gi.


shades of gray.... people wear jackets, learning to use clothing has practical self defense applications

Learning elaborate grips based upon the idea your opponent also knows gripping, and it going to counter with "move x" become pointless

I've seen too much stuff that is only relevant to sport BJJ being obsessed about

[Knifefighter]

this thread has a lot of attention from grapplers at the moment so ill ask a question.

ill be starting judo in a month, and im wondering how long i should wait, or if i should wait at all before I start some form of JJ as well.

basically I started training in striking, and ive been told judo guys can be some of the harder guys to take to the ground, from there i want to develop my ground game with jiujitsu.

should i train judo and jj simultaneously ?
It doesn't really matter. You will do some throws in BJJ and some newaza in Judo. Do judo for a while and then BJJ or do both at the same time. One will supplement the other either way you do it.

[Lucas]

well the thing is the judo dojo ill be joining does not teach jj. its just judo and kendo/iaido so ill be going to a different source to aquire jj.

[Lucas]

It doesn't really matter. You will do some throws in BJJ and some newaza in Judo. Do judo for a while and then BJJ or do both at the same time. One will supplement the other either way you do it.

sounds like a plan. ill probably stick with the judo for a few months, then hopefully when i start jj some things will be more familiar to me.

[1bad65]

The gi is applicable in some self-defense situations. A few years ago there was a street fight between a large high-school football player and a BJJ guy who was quite small. The BJJ guy used a collar choke from the bottom to actually kill his attacker. It was caught on tape by the security camera at the McDonalds it happened at.

[1bad65]

Yes, Judo and BJJ is a very good combination to train in. Take both if you can.

[lkfmdc]

the "dirty secret" that isn't even a secret is that most high level BJJ people have also done judo. THey work very well together

[Lucas]

sounds good. im pretty excited to get started. i just wish holiday and end year finances would let me start sooner than march. oh well.

another question.

in most mma gyms can you go and train just the jj thats being offered or is it usually an all inclusive type deal?

[1bad65]

the "dirty secret" that isn't even a secret is that most high level BJJ people have also done judo. THey work very well together

Rolls Gracie was considered the best of the Gracies in the 70s and early 80s. He advocated cross-training. He trained and competed in wrestling and sambo and also practiced Judo.

[1bad65]

in most mma gyms can you go and train just the jj thats being offered or is it usually an all inclusive type deal?

That depends on the school. I've trained at both types of gyms. I'd suggest going to the school and watching a class or two, and taking a class if they offer a free class. The instructor should also answer all of your questions.

[Lucas]

good times.

thanks for the quick info guys. good for me ol thinkin skills

[m1k3]

I train no gi , I don't like the gi because I train for MMA not jiu jitsu tournaments.

in no gi training I find my bridge work and elbows in from my kung fu comes in useful.


KF, I bet if you try some good kung fu you will find the benefits where it will help your jiu jitsu.

P.S.

Jiu jitsu is a derivative of Kung Fu.


I believe I answered the main thread which was my intention KF good luck with your training.

This has been interesting to say the least.

WildMonk, could you explain to me how you use your kung fu elbows in no-gi grappling. I train no-gi also, only as a hobby, but any advantage I can get over my class mates is worth it.

Thanks.

[m1k3]

Which also means you can't technically claim you train BJJ if you don't do gi work.

Sure you can. 10th planet is all no-gi and it is all BJJ. I train BJJ but only go to no-gi classes, I really don't care about gi work. I have been training for about 18 months and switched to no-gi only about 2 months ago. I am still a white belt either way you look at it.

[MasterKiller]

Sure you can. 10th planet is all no-gi and it is all BJJ. I train BJJ but only go to no-gi classes, I really don't care about gi work. I have been training for about 18 months and switched to no-gi only about 2 months ago. I am still a white belt either way you look at it.

You train at 10th Planet?

[m1k3]

No, I'm on the east coast. Our instructors train with Phil and Rick Migliarese of Team Balance in Philadelphia. The BJJ program at our school is a new and the students are all white belts at this point. I just prefer the no-gi stuff myself.

We have been taught some of the 10th planet style in the no-gi classes. If I have to do gi to get a belt advancement then I'll probably be a white belt forever. No big deal, I go for the workout and to have fun. At 55 I have no illusions about being a competitor, I'm just happy to roll in class.

[MasterKiller]

No, I'm on the east coast. Our instructors train with Phil and Rick Migliarese of Team Balance in Philadelphia. The BJJ program at our school is a new and the students are all white belts at this point. I just prefer the no-gi stuff myself.

We have been taught some of the 10th planet style in the no-gi classes. If I have to do gi to get a belt advancement then I'll probably be a white belt forever. No big deal, I go for the workout and to have fun. At 55 I have no illusions about being a competitor, I'm just happy to roll in class.

You are a white belt in a new BJJ program and you are also intimately familiar with the entire 10th Planet curriculum to the point you can definitely say it's all BJJ?

[Knifefighter]

You are a white belt in a new BJJ program and you are also intimately familiar with the entire 10th Planet curriculum to the point you can definitely say it's all BJJ?

Are you claiming the 10th Planet curriculum is somehow NOT BJJ? That the head instructor, who is a BJJ black belt, is not teaching what he learned in the 8 years it took him to get his BB?

[MasterKiller]

Are you claiming the 10th Planet curriculum is somehow NOT BJJ? That the head instructor, who is a BJJ black belt, is not teaching what he learned in the 8 years it took him to get his BB?

I'm saying that without the gi, it's not the same thing. It's not called 10th Planet BJJ, afterall, now is it?

A wing chun guy that boxes with a Philly Shell isn't doing wing chun.

Of course, you're around the game more than me. This is just my opinion.

[Water Dragon]

Learning elaborate grips based upon the idea your opponent also knows gripping, and it going to counter with "move x" become pointless



No it doesn't. You're forgetting that there is also a sport involved here. Using Judo for an example, you would never (have to) use most of the gripping strategy that you use in the dojo. However, if you want to throw a black belt, you better understand gripping strategy. It's a part of the game.

Most Judo guys I know don't train for self defence. I've stopped really thinking about it myself a long time ago. I train because I like to train. I just want to get better at what I do, it gives me something to strive for.

I'm pretty sure that if someone ever tries to come at me bringing bad, they're gonna get quite the surprise, but the idea of getting jumped, stabbed, shot, robbed, etc. just isn't an every day thought any more.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that mentality, it's just not for me. Just wanted to point out that there many different mindsets about martial arts.

[m1k3]

You are a white belt in a new BJJ program and you are also intimately familiar with the entire 10th Planet curriculum to the point you can definitely say it's all BJJ?

Read some of his books or his internetz stuff. He calls it BJJ and he's a BJJ black belt. Now he doesn't call it Gracie Jiu Jitsu (trademark etc).

[Knifefighter]

Learning elaborate grips based upon the idea your opponent also knows gripping, and it going to counter with "move x" become pointless

I've seen too much stuff that is only relevant to sport BJJ being obsessed about

These days, based on the number of people who have trained BJJ, I'd say understanding grips and taking into account that you may have to deal with someone who also knows them could prove to be very relevant.

You can be great at no gi, but, you are going to be out of your league the minute someone uses your sweatshirt to choke you out.

[MasterKiller]

These days, based on the number of people who have trained BJJ, I'd say understanding grips and taking into account that you may have to deal with someone who also knows them could prove to be very relevant.

You can be great at no gi, but, you are going to be out of your league the minute someone uses your sweatshirt to choke you out.

Consequently, people who rely TOO MUCH on grips and do not use a lot of hooks for control can find themselves out of their element in the no-gi game.

[Knifefighter]

Consequently, people who rely TOO MUCH on grips and do not use a lot of hooks for control can find themselves out of their element in the no-gi game.

Of course they can, that's why the majority of guys who dominate at the international level of no-gi submission grappling train both.

[m1k3]

I'm saying that without the gi, it's not the same thing. It's not called 10th Planet BJJ, afterall, now is it?

A wing chun guy that boxes with a Philly Shell isn't doing wing chun.

Of course, you're around the game more than me. This is just my opinion.

BJJ is very flexible and the main criteria is that it works. For the most part there aren't any lineage wars and massive threads about who has the real BJJ. If it works on the mats then its BJJ. :D

[lkfmdc]

if you want to throw a black belt, you better understand gripping strategy. It's a part of the game.



Most guys in the street are not black belts :p

Re-read what I wrote, there is much too much time in a lot of gyms training to do very elaborate gripping based upon sport, that DOES take time away from other self defense stuff (like not getting hit)

[MasterKiller]

BJJ is very flexible and the main criteria is that it works. For the most part there aren't any lineage wars and massive threads about who has the real BJJ. If it works on the mats then its BJJ. :D

There are plenty of people b1tching about it. Everyone is p1ssy right now about Frank Mir giving away a black belt, as a matter of fact.

[Knifefighter]

I'm saying that without the gi, it's not the same thing. It's not called 10th Planet BJJ, afterall, now is it?

A wing chun guy that boxes with a Philly Shell isn't doing wing chun.

Of course, you're around the game more than me. This is just my opinion.
There comes a point where it's just semantics.

I use heel hooks, twisters, calf crushes, and several takedowns that are considered too dangerous to be allowed in BJJ tourneys as part of my BJJ game. Does that mean I am no longer doing BJJ?

[MasterKiller]

There comes a point where it's just semantics.

I use heel hooks, twisters, calf crushes, and several takedowns that are considered too dangerous to be allowed in BJJ tourneys as part of my BJJ game. Does that mean I am no longer doing BJJ?
No. But like you said, a large part of BJJ is the grip game. If that is completely removed, is it still the same thing? Some people, even BJJ people, say yes, some say no.

[m1k3]

There are plenty of people b1tching about it. Everyone is p1ssy right now about Frank Mir giving away a black belt, as a matter of fact.

It was bound to happen. I come from a wrestling background a loooong time ago so the belt thing really doesn't mean all that much to me.

I think it was one of the Gracies who said that a belt covers 2 inches of your a$$, its up to you to cover the rest.

[WinterPalm]

It doesn't really matter, gi, no-gi, either way when I drop to my golden shadow bow stance and shift into horse, you ain't getting me to the ground.:cool:

[Lucas]

It doesn't really matter, gi, no-gi, either way when I drop to my golden shadow bow stance and shift into horse, you ain't getting me to the ground.:cool:

dont forget the eye gouge.

[David Jamieson]

dont forget the eye gouge.

or the throat ripping.

[Lucas]

i always forget to rip the throat.:mad: i hate when that happens.

[m1k3]

Wait, wait, what about Monkey steals the peach?:eek: I love that one!

[Lucas]

keep your monkey away from my peaches and everything will be o.k.

:D

[David Jamieson]

I don't mind monkey fondles peaches so much but when someone tries an oil change, look out! :mad:

[taai gihk yahn]

Jiu jitsu is a derivative of Kung Fu.


If it wasn't for Kung Fu there would be no BJJ or even JJ for that matter

how do you substantiate these statements?

[lkfmdc]

These days, based on the number of people who have trained BJJ, I'd say understanding grips and taking into account that you may have to deal with someone who also knows them could prove to be very relevant.

You can be great at no gi, but, you are going to be out of your league the minute someone uses your sweatshirt to choke you out.

OK, let's just play a game for argument's sake

Guy A grabs Guy B's sweatshirt to choke him. Guy B has never done Gi but he's an MMA guy and he's done standing plaam, he thinks it is just a plaam and "wedges" and knees. Guy A has done a lot of gi grappling, no striking... he has no idea how to stop the knees (and elbows)

learning grips can help in self defense, but some people don't do it

learning strikes can help in self defense, but some people don't do it

[David Jamieson]

how do you substantiate these statements?

just follow the dotted line from caveman to modern soldier?

[taai gihk yahn]

just follow the dotted line from caveman to modern soldier?

seriously?

..........

[David Jamieson]

OK, let's just play a game for argument's sake

Guy A grabs Guy B's num nums to stroke him. Guy B has never done Gay but he's an MMA guy and he's done standing grope, he thinks it is just a grope and "wedges" and knees. Guy A has done a lot of grappling, no oil changes... he has no idea how to stop the wrap around (and teeth)

learning grips can help in consensual man sex, but some people don't do it

learning wrap around can help in getting to know your mom, but some people don't do it

kinda fixed that up a bit for ya. :p

[David Jamieson]

seriously?

..........

well, taking into account the middle ages, the crusades and the eventual election of Barack Obama, I think it's pretty self explanatory.

Oh sorry, you want to argue the point.

Can't help you there, I just grin. :D <like that.

[diego]

Because life in Japan was so easy and comfortable after WWII? :rolleyes:


'People' are tough everywhere. That kind of argument is just silly.

so everyone does jjj now then right? u silly

[Kansuke]

It doesn't really matter, gi, no-gi, either way when I drop to my golden shadow bow stance and shift into horse, you ain't getting me to the ground.:cool:



That was a poor joke, poor joke.

[Lucas]

hey i thought it was funny! :mad:

[David Jamieson]

so everyone does jjj now then right? u silly

I've become so tough, that I now do only jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj and am learning some nnnnnnnnn on the side to help round it all out a bit.

[David Jamieson]

That was a poor joke, poor joke.

no it wasn't. it was an excellent smattering of levity in a conversation that needed some golden shadow bow stance shifting into horse. Yer such a newbzors. :p

[diego]

Japan doesn't have guns.
Kids still fight in the streets after school, with limited fear of weapons being used.

When I was doing kung fu in high school, one of the kids in our class used his stuff on almost a daily basis - he was half-fillipino and had a lot of problems with racism at his Japanese high school, not to mention an abusive older brother.

I knew kids when I was in high school over there that picked up boxing, judo, or karate for the sole purpose of protecting themselves from after school bullies.

The softening of Japan is a much more recent thing and has very little to do with Aikido.

Where would mma be without Japan?
Especially seeing as how it was making a start there technically before the first UFC...?

Safe country? Yes, but a lot of dudes still like to fight.

haven't been to either but brazil has kids with machine guns so i imagine they don't play paddycake on the jungle gym...thai's have terrible sex trade kids fight all day i imagine...makes sence why these two methods are prefered in the west...they are alive :)

[Shaolindynasty]

haven't been to either but brazil has kids with machine guns so i imagine they don't play paddycake on the jungle gym...


I've been to brazil, it's not like that. They do have "projects" in rio that are tough and controlled by drug dealers. Yes they have machine guns but they use those to fight not their BJJ skills.

People are the same everywhere, trust me brazillians are no more tougher than people in the usa, japan, hong kong or africa. people are the same all over some are tough some are pussies

[Lucas]

women, coffee, sepultura, and bjj.

brazil has my vote as one of the most rad places to supply really awesome things.

[David Jamieson]

I agree, nationality has nothing to do with toughness.

[TenTigers]

at this point, I incorperate both gi and no-gi in my training. I'm not looking for any belts, ranks, certifications, etc. Just training, and versitility. So I bring in guys who teach both. I think it gives my guys a great overall understanding. Not really interested in comps., just effectiveness, and fun. If it isn't fun, why bother?

[diego]

I've been to brazil, it's not like that. They do have "projects" in rio that are tough and controlled by drug dealers. Yes they have machine guns but they use those to fight not their BJJ skills.

People are the same everywhere, trust me brazillians are no more tougher than people in the usa, japan, hong kong or africa. people are the same all over some are tough some are pussies

sorry grimy may be a better word than tough...thai's have the stretcher by the ring as they allow elbows...in the west we just box and kick we are how do I say this with honor lol **** it americans are soft like Kennedy said around page 5 :) climates and cultures changes the intention...

[David Jamieson]

This thread is approaching a level of awesome. It's about the right mix of ridiculous, serious, posturing, retardedness and relatively decent information.

I especially like the ridiculous and retarded posts. Mostly because they're mine.

seriously, some of you guys gotta lighten up. just a little. :p

[TenTigers]

I especially like the ridiculous and retarded posts. :p
thanx, bro.

[David Jamieson]

dirty skinny hungry people just come across as more dangerous.

I think it's because they want that cheeseburger you're chowing down on and are willing to choke you out for at least half of it.

[Lucas]

thanx, bro.

quit trying to steal all my thunder man! :mad:

[David Jamieson]

quit trying to steal all my thunder man! :mad:

when did this become about felching?

[Shaolindynasty]

sorry grimy may be a better word than tough

It's not

The tough or grimy image of brazil has makes me laugh. When I was there all people did was was eat good food chase women and party. I didn't even go to the tourist areas. I went with a friend who grew up there, I stayed in regular neighborhoods with regular people. It wasn't really much different from the usa other than they seemed to be more relaxed.

[lkfmdc]

where is "youknowwho" to tell us that a ring with a hook on it would mean you'd never need to learn jiujitsu :D

[YouKnowWho]

You don't need to train

- BJJ if you have this. http://www.vampfangs.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=3&Click=3566&gclid=CIrF0sPZoJgCFQRkswodV1Fpmg
- boxing if you have this. http://www.brassknucklescompany.com/
- MT if you have this: http://www.womensselfdefense.net/
- Judo if you have this: I'm still looking for it.

[David Jamieson]

I think the catch all answer is " a gun". :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No it doesn't. You're forgetting that there is also a sport involved here. Using Judo for an example, you would never (have to) use most of the gripping strategy that you use in the dojo. However, if you want to throw a black belt, you better understand gripping strategy. It's a part of the game.

Reply]
Why can't you just use your leg threading and take them down without using a grip at all?

[Mr Punch]

People are the same everywhere, trust me brazillians are no more tougher than people in the usa, japan, hong kong or africa. people are the same all over some are tough some are pussiesRussia has Fedor. End of chat! :D

Winter Palm would have trouble trying to substantiate his existance at this rate. :D

[Mr Punch]

dirty skinny hungry people just come across as more dangerous.

I think it's because they want that cheeseburger you're chowing down on and are willing to choke you out for at least half of it.I don't eat cheeseburgers: I'm safe. Nobody's gonna try and choke me out for a piece of undressed, half-raw broccoli.

[Water Dragon]

No it doesn't. You're forgetting that there is also a sport involved here. Using Judo for an example, you would never (have to) use most of the gripping strategy that you use in the dojo. However, if you want to throw a black belt, you better understand gripping strategy. It's a part of the game.

Reply]
Why can't you just use your leg threading and take them down without using a grip at all?

Because if you take your grip off for even a second, you're gonna get spiked. Secondly, you're not gonna just walk in on a good jacket wrestler. The leg threading works good as an incidental technique when you 'happen' to be in position for it. A good wrestler will never let you get in position for it. Add in strikes and/or weapons, and the dynamics change a bit.

[Shaolinlueb]

DOH!:eek:


ya got me there, bro.

now its the next day and on page 17!! wtf

[Kansuke]

sorry grimy may be a better word than tough...thai's have the stretcher by the ring as they allow elbows...in the west we just box and kick we are how do I say this with honor lol **** it americans are soft like Kennedy said around page 5 :) climates and cultures changes the intention...





I thought it had been established by now that this kind of comment is empty nonsense.

[Kansuke]

so everyone does jjj now then right?


When did I say EVERYONE does?

[sanjuro_ronin]

hmmm, i worked the door too, but in winnipeg late 80's early 90's...

- the stockexchange/rockexchange on arlington (this place was rough, fight night everynight)

- the plaza on osborne (not bad, lots of bikers on crew so not many threats)

- grapes on main (this gig was sweeeet, they didn't even really need doormen and there was tons of cute chicks from the finance district woot woot)

that's it. after those, i got a real job and made more money without the risks.
never bounced in the T dot. I don't think I would either, especially not down in the district.

It wasn't that bad, sure you get knives pulled on you and shot at, but the women are fine !
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Apology accepted.

LMAO !!
Nice one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Gi and NO-Gi.
Unless you are training for a sport specific event, why would you focus exclusvily on one??
One of the things lacking in judo that makes it incomplete is the lack of no-gi work.
Having done both I can say that both have their pros and cons and both shoudl be done.
Perhaps Go work should be done first because it tends to be more "practical" for self defense work.
BJJ that doesn't train for strikes or with consideration of strikes is just as bad as the striking systems that don't take into account grappling.

[Ray Pina]

HOW ABOUT I PUT IT THIS WAY


UFC 93 BJ Penn and GSP are training for a 5 min 5 Round war. right that is 25 minutes.



Who here has been in a 25 minute street fight ??????????????

Who here could perform at that level? And that's the point. There's a whole new standard of what it means to be a bad a$$ martial artists these days.

And there are so many people training that way today. It's not just the guys in the UFC. It's amateur guys pushing it hard in every county in every state.

This is why I say Kung Fu has fallen behind. I would bet most guys here would need to train for a week or two just to make it through today's typical training session.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who here could perform at that level? And that's the point. There's a whole new standard of what it means to be a bad a$$ martial artists these days.

And there are so many people training that way today. It's not just the guys in the UFC. It's amateur guys pushing it hard in every county in every state.

This is why I say Kung Fu has fallen behind. I would bet most guys here would need to train for a week or two just to make it through today's typical training session.

I don't think comparing professional fighters, even amateur fighters, with recreational hobbyists is a good idea, or even valid.

[Ray Pina]

I don't think comparing professional fighters, even amateur fighters, with recreational hobbyists is a good idea, or even valid.

Well, that's kind of my other point. I don't believe in "hobbyist" martial arts.

I'm not saying everyone has to fight, but you have to train like you do. I have so much respect for my team mates who do every single rep, roll for every second that I do. They're all tough as nails and have my total respect.