Wing Chun Destructions and other things

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Moving over from another thread which started to get off topic...........

Does Wing Chun have destructions as part of its arsenal? If so how are they taught and applied?

Does Wing Chun have control techniques and again how and where?

Does Wing Chun have throws hidden within the forms? Same question if so where and how.

[Mr Punch]

LOL :D...

HY-oooooooooo-ge THREE different topics in one... may as well call it the "General Wing Chun Chat Thread"... given how quickly these things go OT!

Oh well, unexpectedly open at work... Let's open the bidding...

1) What would you call a destruction?

2) Ditto control techniques...

3) If it isn't in the forms, does that mean it doesn't exist in WC?

[Mr Punch]

... on the answers...

1) My wing chun has nothing that resembles a one-off, one-hit, one hand strike to a limb that is designed to disable that limb.

It does have at least two 'arm breaks'.

A) One is the tok sao (CK - slapping your own arm bit). I was taught that privately by my sifu, who wouldn't teach it to many others of an equivalent stage in form and application practice because they didn't have the control or he felt them too inclined to use it. I've tried it in sparring: it isn't going to break anyone's arm in normal circumstances (ie without a lot of hard practice at breaking wood and things with it, and a lot of practice getting it to work timing- and whatnot-wise at speed against resistance).

Problems: it takes a specific punch (elbow down, long range, coming in at mid height). It takes both hands. It takes a very good eye and speed. It is difficult to angle away strongly enough to avoid bringing it straight in towards your body.

OTOH: it is actually surprisingly easy to get on, and disrupts their structure/balance very well.

Summary: not a destruction as sold, not in a modern wing chun practicability in practice setting anyway. Good enough tool in the box for a simple panic unbalancer.

B) Flying arm bar in all it's lovely variations... the energies for which are in several places in the forms. It has been flogged over and over again.

My summary: It's fine against scrubs and a good unbalancer, and easy enough if practised enough. Possible to break arm, more likely to hyperextend elbow, but not particularly high percentage against anyone who'd ever had at least one fight in the school playground!

C) There is no reason why juts, paks, even bongs can't be used as effective ways to put a limb out of action. There is also no excuse for looking for these techs and opportunities: it would/should always be incidental and by happy chance. Why? Very low percentage.

One day I was sparring with my sifu and I caught him unawares with a good shot which he pakked. It hit my forearm and immediately (adrenaline and all) it 'did something ' to the muscle which prevented me from effectively making a fist with that arm and made it very difficult to physically turn my hand in any direction. It swelled up later, and took about two weeks to heal. This was once, in over ten years of practice in wing chun and nearly 20 years of full-contact and semi-contact sparring.

I've also had elbow trouble bad enough to stop training from bong saos being turned over into an elbow to elbow strike (intercepting my incoming on their elbow) a few times. It seems to angle well away from the centre and to be like a karate block, but it fits perfectly with wing chun's principles to me (I would use it anyway - dam Ned MMAer that I am!). I have used it in FC MMA sparring countless times (and was taught a similar tech in MMA - maybe from Thai?). It has never put anyone out of action (wouldn't expect it to particularly, and of course, in sparring, wouldn't want to) but has made them think twice about putting in strikes on the same angle without a better set-up combination.

A good jut turning the fingertips back to yourself and shooting the hand-blade onto your opponent's wrist/forearm/bicep is a staple. Problem is again, doesn't work on fighters except by accident. Look for it and your reacting and therefore slow, and NAILED. Make it a reflex and you might get it. Again, better on scrubs. It's painful but not a fight-stopper.

D) There are several wing chun kicks (all of them maybe?!) that have the potential to damage your opponent's legs a great deal, and I have had to sit out of sparring sessions after even light contact. If this happens to you, you too are a pu55y and should train Thai! Again, more scrub destruction than limb destruction!

[Mr Punch]

2) Really don't really understand the q. Maybe this is a FMA term? All of wing chun is control techniques!

3) Yes, and not hidden. And not only in the forms but as individual san sik/san sao.

There are sweeps galore, innumerable takedowns involving some variation of lop and a simultaneous knee stamp/sweep/foot rake, there are several iriminage (don't know the Chinese term and it was never given a name to me - but basically it's a throw where you control the head backwards while pushing in on the back/below the shoulder blade etc) and there are short head control 'terrier' throws/unbalances based on clinching with fuk sao (Thai does them better but they're pretty good). None of them are bad, but the usual problems about how you practice apply doubly, so your average grappling art is streets ahead in similar moves, IME.

In the forms it's mostly the energies that are practised, rather than the techs themselves. I guess that's because the principles are easier to practice and universal to apply than the hundreds of variations of the same techs.

E.g. the opening of the stance in all the forms (inc of course the huen bo in BJ which is an essential tech), many of the turning moves in CK, the double lop sao in BJ etc etc...

OF course, these three posts are speaking for my wing chun, YMMV.

[Violent Designs]

For limb destruction look into Hung Kuen or CLF. Or maybe northern systems such as Pigua/Baji Quan?

[Sihing73]

Hello Mr. Punch,

Stop trying to get me to think, it hurts my head :p

Definitiion of a destruction:

A technique which disprupts the structure of an opponent to such an extent that it cause that opponent to be unable to respond for a period of time. Such can be physically damaging such as a break or hyperextension causing nerve or muscular damage. Such can also be of a temporary nature making a limb or other body part unresponsive for a period of time.

Definition of a Control:

A technique which allows one person to limit and direct anothers movements or body structure. For example in most "control" techniques one would break the opponents balance by taking them up onto their toes or down to the ground. In each case the goal is to disrupt their center of balance so as to limit their ability to respond or counter with an attack of their own. In some cases such control is down using pain compliance, having said that the human body is highly adapatable and pain compliance must be fluid and changing as the body will adapt and be able to accept more and more pain.

If not in the Forms is it in WC:

Since Wing Chun is a conceptual system and not simple a grouping of techniques, I would say that something not found in the forms can still be Wing Chun. The forms are a guide much like the alphabet and grammer. We all have 26 letters, at least in the U.S. but some can do much more with them than others. It's still writting though ;)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Is this an example of a "destruction"?

An opponent attacks by striking with his right arm in a punch. You step to the outside and Pak the arm while striking the opponent, can be a low palm under his arm or you may strike over the arm to the face, or punch him in the torso. After you have been able to strike the opponent, you then continue to check his arm and using the right arm you strike into his upper arm area with your elbow either in a Lan Sau type of movement or an actual elbow strike. Or you reverse and check with the right arm and perform, say, an upward elbow to the opponents right arm.

Of course you continue to follow up with other things like maybe going to his rear and applying a choke, etc. But I am curious as to the opinions of whether the strike wth the Lan\Elbow could be classified as a "destruction" if not why not?

[Wayfaring]

In FMA knife work, is a "destruction" where you cut the hand/arm of the opponent that is holding the knife?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Striking the oncoming limb is, to say the least, tricky and difficult.
With an average and strike coming at you at about 30 miles an hour, and you being in a typically reactive state, IE: a step behind And on top of that the more than likely chance of it being a combo and not a single strike striking the attacking limb becomes a fine motor skill that, unless drilled and trained nausem, can probably leave you in a fine mess.
Its different with a weapon, not only do you have distance typically, you also produce greater damage, typically.

Now, limb destruction AFTER control, that is different, though you still have to consider your opponents counter.
Many FMA have them, based on the view of going from weapons to empty hands, but truth be told, if you try the typical kali limb strike/cut that is supposd to be done with a knife or stick, with your empty hand, you will not get the same results.

[Ali. R]

None of the above would work dealing with "destruction” and wing chun, unless; proper timing, structure awareness and footwork (moving stance) is advocated, a high risk and high chance maneuver…

And the ideal of "destruction" is not practical for a and wing chun practitioners, it takes away and destroys the ideal of “da”, making your attempt to defend yourself even more costly (wasting movements) and which is not wing chun, but it only takes away from her ideal … “Destruction” works wonders when one is armed with a short or long-range weapon…

Remember: a wing chun practitioner is taught to attack the attack… When a person is focusing on a certain limbs of their opponent (lord forbid if he or she miss) he’s trapping himself, and his mind is not free, but only rigged with fixations of what if, and while one is attacking a limb the other should be reacting to reaction…

It can be done, but only with one motion dealing with the ideal of body unity on entry, but if one cant move his feet and don’t have above average timing, then one will never be able to achieve such foolishness empty handed…


Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

Remember: a wing chun practitioner is taught to attack the attack…

Hello Ali,

Wouldn't the idea of attacking the attack be a destruction?

I always thought Wing Chun was concerned with attacking the centerline. One could argue that "attacking the attack" could fall into the trap of chasing hands.

Of course, everything is risky and if you read my scenerio I am not advocating using any type of destruction without having been able to strike the opponent first. Kind of like using Judo or the like, one would not often have an opportunity to apply a throw unless one has been able to strike the opponent first. Of course there are always exceptions.

sanjuro_ronin,

Also appreciate your comments. I agree that attempting to strike an incoming attack is risky at best. Again, my reasons for striking the opponent first and formost. Funny, many of my FMA friends consider use of destructions to be merciful.

I would venture that use of destructions would be akin to use of Chin Na. To be used when one is superior to the opponent as each approach takes a risk. It is far easier to hit someone than to try and control them.

I do like playing Devils Advocate though so I say let the destructions rain down on my opponents.

[Ali. R]

It’s about reacting upon reaction while using both hands (first), and not hitting someone limbs and then stealing their balance or COG…

Wing Chun is practical and should always remain practical, “destruction” is noting more then an outside entity that destroy the natural flow of the system… It is not compatible with Wing Chun, but yet can be done by those that are well train in “dim mak”…

For the most part the Ip man or Hong Kong interpretation of wing chun is with the fist…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

The problem is that most here considerate more on offense and not defense and getting lost in their perception of things… When all one has to do is focus defensively and run their offense from there, and that’s wing chun without deviation…


Ali Rahim.

[mjw]

My Sifu would often hit arm breaks in chi sau or controling techniques if my arms would be dangling inbetween his and i'm sure there are arm breaks in the forms in things as simple as multiple pak saus in a row can easily be hidden arm breaks or many other applications.

[Ali. R]

When one grains control with ones own punch while stealing ones balance, his (the opponent) arms will reach out defensively, then it will be easier to apply an arm break…


Ali Rahim.

[chusauli]

WCK is completely an art of destruction, control, and off balancing, which leads to projections, throws, takedowns, joint locks and the like. Strikes and kicks are vehicles to use simply as strikes or in combination/set up form. I would not say these are "advanced" or "secret". Even Pak Dao can be a destruction, control, off balance, throw, joint lock, break, or simply a strike, depending upon the context in which it is used.

The pole has numerous controls and off balancing, and the knives have all of the above. When one has reached the Mai Sang Jong level, everything is there. But WCK is not groundfighting, wrestling, BJJ.

[Ali. R]

WCK is completely an art of destruction,

Now I would agree to that only in the terms of blocking and not striking, as far as the Yip Man's Hong Kong version of wing chun…

Striking or hitting the limbs of the opponent should mainly rely with; and on the ideal of blocking, because striking intentionally at someone’s limbs is not practical, within the use of wing chun, unless it’s with a block/destruction (unless one don't use the concept of “da”)…

The strike is used with the block in which makes contact to ones mother line or COG… But not striking someone’s limbs before a dominated position is in order, because one would simply fight back against such foolishness…

So, one would use this ideal (destruction) with blocking and not striking, and If one can't move their feet, then forget about it...


Ali Rahim.

[JPinAZ]

In terms of application, WC is totaly an art of distruction and control. Once a bridge is made (the attack engaged & neutralized), the rest is about controlling and/or distroying the opponent's structures and CL/COG. Striking as in punch or kick is just gravy at that point.

From a concept POV, I don't see it as 'blocking' or 'striking' - just occupying space, using correct structures, and proper energy. "Striking or hitting the limbs", if from either a 'blocking' or 'striking' pov can IMO lead to chasing hands. Proper gate coverage with correct structure and energy intent can seriously jack up an arm that's driving a punch into that gate (destruction) - I know, I've been on the recieving end of structure gate coverage with good jing - makes you think twice about trying to throw punches, let alone stilll having the ability too :)

[Knifefighter]

Striking the oncoming limb is, to say the least, tricky and difficult.
With an average and strike coming at you at about 30 miles an hour, and you being in a typically reactive state, IE: a step behind And on top of that the more than likely chance of it being a combo and not a single strike striking the attacking limb becomes a fine motor skill that, unless drilled and trained nausem, can probably leave you in a fine mess.
Its different with a weapon, not only do you have distance typically, you also produce greater damage, typically.

Now, limb destruction AFTER control, that is different, though you still have to consider your opponents counter.
Many FMA have them, based on the view of going from weapons to empty hands, but truth be told, if you try the typical kali limb strike/cut that is supposd to be done with a knife or stick, with your empty hand, you will not get the same results.

+1000... spot on. Interesting in theory, but rarely applicable in reality.

Take away the edged or blunt weapon and he is going to be pounding your head and body while you are trying to "destruct" his limbs.

[Liddel]

Destruction is a severe word !


+1000... spot on. Interesting in theory, but rarely applicable in reality.

Take away the edged or blunt weapon and he is going to be pounding your head and body while you are trying to "destruct" his limbs.

I agree, although -

Im surprised there is no mention of VT kicks in this thread yet, 90% of my kicks are used as destructive knee/ leg stomps...they can stop a guy cold irrespective of size IME.

I would add also that it depends on the level of destruction one is talking about here, im not a big believer in actions being able to break limbs but to deaden
and/or hyperextend perhaps...(specifically the Tok Sau mentioned)

The sharpness of inch power in blocking round punches has had good results for me in sparring - its not something that is going to stop a guy outright.
However IMO its the same effect as punching a guy in the same spot or kicking a leg throughout a round...the cumulative(sp?) effects make it harder for a guy etc he then must adjust his strategy.... it can take power away and fatigue him to gain an edge.

Thats certainly not 'destructive' IMO though. Stomps are the only action i have i would put in that class.

DREW

[Edmund]

Im surprised there is no mention of VT kicks in this thread yet, 90% of my kicks are used as destructive knee/ leg stomps...they can stop a guy cold irrespective of size IME.

I would add also that it depends on the level of destruction one is talking about here, im not a big believer in actions being able to break limbs but to deaden
and/or hyperextend perhaps...(specifically the Tok Sau mentioned)


Good point on kicks.

I think the easiest limb destructions are stuff like kneeing them in the thigh. It doesn't rely on catching a movement.

There are slightly harder ones that do catch a movement in MT. Downward double elbow strikes vs round kicks: If you can spot the kick coming at your midsection, it's only a slight downward movement of your guard. If you're late and the kick lands, at least you counterattacked a bit by elbowing their leg anyway.

Catching the round kick and kicking their supporting leg is a common one also.

For attacking the opponent's arms, the dummy forms of YKS and PN have some techniques which are strikes to the limbs: Generally you're grabbing at wrist level with one hand as you're striking with the forearm or elbow further up the arm.
You want to use the solid bony parts of your arm to hit the softer parts of the opponent's arm.

In sparring, it doesn't destroy as in break anyone's arm, but it slows you down and gives you a sore arm. In instances where you're too far away to hit to the head/body, at least you can strike something and inflict a little pain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

+1000... spot on. Interesting in theory, but rarely applicable in reality.

Take away the edged or blunt weapon and he is going to be pounding your head and body while you are trying to "destruct" his limbs.

That truly becomes the issue that many people seem to forget because they get caught up on drills and "static" training.
The other guy keeps on hitting you, and hitting you and hitting you, he just doesn't stand there with his arm out, he punches, kickes, tackles, elbows, knees, etc, etc.
Too m any times we get caught up on something the looks good on "paper", something the looks good in a demo, but in a real altercation, street, ring or otherwise, they other guy is not only uncooperative, he is down right violent !

[sanjuro_ronin]

Destruction is a severe word !



I agree, although -

Im surprised there is no mention of VT kicks in this thread yet, 90% of my kicks are used as destructive knee/ leg stomps...they can stop a guy cold irrespective of size IME.

I would add also that it depends on the level of destruction one is talking about here, im not a big believer in actions being able to break limbs but to deaden
and/or hyperextend perhaps...(specifically the Tok Sau mentioned)

The sharpness of inch power in blocking round punches has had good results for me in sparring - its not something that is going to stop a guy outright.
However IMO its the same effect as punching a guy in the same spot or kicking a leg throughout a round...the cumulative(sp?) effects make it harder for a guy etc he then must adjust his strategy.... it can take power away and fatigue him to gain an edge.

Thats certainly not 'destructive' IMO though. Stomps are the only action i have i would put in that class.

DREW

I agree, low line limb destruction is a far better approach than upper line.
Your legs are less mobile, hard to defend and "easier" to damage.

[Mr Punch]

IMO Sanjuro, Robert and JPinAz are right.

That's why I was asking Sihing what he meant by destructions. Most attempts at 'blocking' are a waste of time and will get you clocked. Covering, a strong counter punch from any angle, footwork and maintaining your structure go much further than trying to whack arms out of the air.

The word 'destruction' is melodramatic and inaccurate for the kind of effect you will get if you do catch an arm.

Incidentally, I've seen something very similar to the tok sao I have seen on knife defence demos (like Demi Barbito is it?)... still don't fancy it much.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO Sanjuro, Robert and JPinAz are right.

That's why I was asking Sihing what he meant by destructions. Most attempts at 'blocking' are a waste of time and will get you clocked. Covering, a strong counter punch from any angle, footwork and maintaining your structure go much further than trying to whack arms out of the air.

The word 'destruction' is melodramatic and inaccurate for the kind of effect you will get if you do catch an arm.

Incidentally, I've seen something very similar to the tok sao I have seen on knife defence demos (like Demi Barbito is it?)... still don't fancy it much.

I wouldn't say that most attempts at blocking get you clocked, I would say that defensive blocking gets you clocked while offensive blocking does what it is suppose to:
Block the attack at its beginning and puts you in the right place to do what you do best.

[Mr Punch]

Ah well, I would say that 'blocking the attack at its beginning' is jamming, not blocking, but whatever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah well, I would say that 'blocking the attack at its beginning' is jamming, not blocking, but whatever.

Don't get tiffy with me mister !!

[Matrix]

Don't get tiffy with me mister !!Well, when you put it that way, who can argue? ;)

[bennyvt]

The tok sao one out of chum kiu should only be used when the elbow is locked. It shouldnt really matter which way the elbow is pointing. It is normally used when the person is bigger and has grabbed you and you arent able to reach for a punch. Means the feet can stay one the ground for stability instead of the normal "kick him in the shins' approach. This is taught to everyone and shouldnt really depend on how good you are. Doing it in chi sao normally means you are trying to do it with punches so unless you are super quick you dont get the arm locked so it doesnt really work.
The key is to do the tok sao at 45 degrees upward which causes the shoulder to lock into position instead of pushing the arm up into space.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for explaining what tok sao means to your school Benny. It seems my teacher's way was different.

I like that idea of using it on a grab, we did that too. The direction of the elbow is still important: play around with it and see. Unless you are saying that your tok is a principle rather than a technique? In which case I would expect some development of it and more repetition of it in the forms. In our school most of what we did was attributable to principles rather than techs, as in 'if he does this, you do this'. My answer to the questions on this thread reflects that.

[Mr Punch]

Don't get tiffy with me mister !!I don't knwo what tiffy is, but if being it gets you to post pics like that, I'm down.

[bennyvt]

yeh I meant that the move can be used no matter were the elbow is ie if its pointing left you do it to the left. The idea is more of a pushing and yanking in two directions to get the same effect. the main thing is if the elbow isnt locked it wont work. There is also the same idea in the knives, except that they are for a sideways movement to displace or control the weapon.
But the attacking the attack can seem like a bit of a catch phrase. In the WSL system we tend to use it more as a way of explaining that if you control the head and the COG then you dont have to block the coming punch. As opposed to actually attacking the punch that is coming in. Its all about the range and the timing. Take a wide punch, if Im quick I can punch straight and beat the punch. then the variables happen. Say their arm is bigger, so you have to step forward to disrupt his stance and send the on coming punch up and away. If hes really big you may have to tan sao and punch. This would all be classed as attacking the attack as they all use offence to block. But some times if every thing is against you it may involve stepping back to let it pass you and then stepping in or other alternatives. Things are different depending on the situation. If you hurt the arms while hitting them in the head then cool. But when they are knocked-out no-one cares if their arms are sore.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Sanjuro, does Miss Tiffy have a guard game? If so, I'd like to roll with her and test out Tony Cecchine's ideas about lowering the hips, pressuring forward, and locking the guard players' hips with yours in order to take their space away.

It takes away their opportunities to get a submission.

So the question now is, will SHE submit? :p

Wait, don't answer that...just pm me her phone number and I'll find out for myself. :cool: :D