Five Ancestor Chi Sao/Interesting for Wing Chuners!

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoXu2zc7ed4


I know that this is not a Wing Chun video but I find that it is relevant and that is why I am posting it here in the Wing Chun threads.

Have a look at this short Five Ancestor Kung Fu Chi Sao video clip by Sifu Yap Leong. The approach seems very direct and in your face and shows the sifu´s sensitivity and "listening" abilities.

The more I watch, the more I see.:)

[janemayday]

Looks quite different to VT chi sau he doesn't roll from what i can see.

It would be nice to see them working a friendly with VT though i cant imagine that ever happening :rolleyes:

Its interesting just how many styles are now being posted on you tube.

[duende]

Fwiw... there exists much more shared elements of "Chi Sau" between 5 ancestors and WC than what was presented in this vid. One of our students is also a master in 5 ancestors, and he can definitely roll and flow and stick using solely 5 ancestor techniques. (Not that rolling is the endpoint of Chi Sau imo.)

[Hardwork108]

It would be nice to see them working a friendly with VT though i cant imagine that ever happening :rolleyes:

I have seen him rolling with WC players. He just jams and closes their limbs or he "leaks" through and bam!


Its interesting just how many styles are now being posted on you tube.

You are right there is some great (and some not so great) stuff on YouTube.

[Hardwork108]

Fwiw... there exists much more shared elements of "Chi Sau" between 5 ancestors and WC than what was presented in this vid.

The concept should be the same. The sensitivity, the listening and the leaking etc. Except that in FA there is no rolling or fixed movements. You just make contact in the given position and then you "listen".


One of our students is also a master in 5 ancestors,
Wow, you have a Five Ancestor Fist master studying Wing Chun?

From what little I know about Five Ancestor style, a master of this style would not need to study Wing Chun. It is my understanding that it is a higher level style when compared to most Wing Chun around nowadays.




and he can definitely roll and flow and stick using solely 5 ancestor techniques. (Not that rolling is the endpoint of Chi Sau imo.)

The concept is the same and I believe that with a bit of practice one can adapt from one to the other.:)

[Vajramusti]

I did play the video. Sifu Leong is doing his thing. The other fellow is not really doing wing chun.
where's the beef?

joy chaudhuri

[Shadow_warrior8]

The concept should be the same. The sensitivity, the listening and the leaking etc. Except that in FA there is no rolling or fixed movements. You just make contact in the given position and then you "listen".

Wow, you have a Five Ancestor Fist master studying Wing Chun?

From what little I know about Five Ancestor style, a master of this style would not need to study Wing Chun. It is my understanding that it is a higher level style when compared to most Wing Chun around nowadays.

The concept is the same and I believe that with a bit of practice one can adapt from one to the other.:)

I beg to differ

We had a 5 Ancestor Master/Doctor in private practice who learnt for 20 over years in Malaysia and when he discovered wingchun, he crossed the causeway to Singapore, just to learn Yip Chun Wingchun. He even went back to malaysia and brought his 5 Ancestor Students to learn from my Sifu.
His comments were he had to relearn "everything" again.
Interestingly he told us a story about his fellow siheng, who burst a blood vessel "playing" with a young guy in class, he died.

In chi sao, he was very hard, strong, fast. Hard bridges, very tense. Like a truck, but not wingchun definately. And using mere slapping, or hand muscles to power your strikes would yield no results against him. Breaking structure moves like Larp sao against his tense arms, neck, shoulder strikes were effective.

In wingchun we want to use just enough energy, economy of motion/energy, and to be Sung/relax. Structure, angles, body sticking, whole body attacks, signatures of wingchun are needed.
The wingchun chi sao positions are far from "fixed", every position is held just enough to react to the amount of force the hands receive and every angled hand has its principle in physical body structure principles e.g elbows tips pointing down, so the muscles wrap around the bone.

But having said that, Wingchun is a soft, internal art. Its not Choy lay fut or 5 Ancestor....
In the words of a Senior who gave me some tips in another wingchun lineage,
If Wingchun is hard versus hard, then we can forget about wingchun

Me thinks, Its never the style, its the stylist. Every style is great, if you train hard enough.

[duende]

The concept should be the same. The sensitivity, the listening and the leaking etc. Except that in FA there is no rolling or fixed movements. You just make contact in the given position and then you "listen".


Chi Sao skills were definitely developed, and although some concepts were shared, certain body structures and occupation of space principles were not.



Wow, you have a Five Ancestor Fist master studying Wing Chun?

From what little I know about Five Ancestor style, a master of this style would not need to study Wing Chun. It is my understanding that it is a higher level style when compared to most Wing Chun around nowadays.


I would not agree. There is good and bad/ "higher levels" in many styles. The issue here is not what style is better. But to rise above the style mindset and realize that body methods and core structures when founded upon physics transcend across styles.... making the notion of styles in themselves obsolete.

[janemayday]

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;908646]I have seen him rolling with WC players. He just jams and closes their limbs or he "leaks" through and bam!


Did you see Sifu Leung in Columbia or London ?

Its amazing you guys cant have a conversation without bringing up who is better rah rah rha ! It seems some of you have a long way to go :(

[Hardwork108]

Did you see Sifu Leung in Columbia or London ?

In London of course. :)


Its amazing you guys cant have a conversation without bringing up who is better rah rah rha ! It seems some of you have a long way to go :(

Many kung fu practioners believe that there are higher and lower styles of kung fu. So in this case it is not about the who but about the style as well.:)

[Hardwork108]

I did play the video. Sifu Leong is doing his thing. The other fellow is not really doing wing chun.
where's the beef?

joy chaudhuri

Oh you misunderstand Joy. There is no beef here. They were both doing Five Ancestor chi sao. We were just discussing the two styles (Wing Chun and Five Ancestor Fist) with our opinions thrown in.:)

[Hardwork108]

Chi Sao skills were definitely developed, and although some concepts were shared, certain body structures and occupation of space principles were not.

Agreed. However that was a relatively short clip and I hope that sifu Yap Leong will put up more clips regarding this fascinating area of training so that we will see a bigger picture and gain more information regarding the concepts involved in this type of chi sao indeed in this style of kung fu.


I would not agree. There is good and bad/ "higher levels" in many styles.

That is very true but many kung fu practitioners classify styles as "low" , "middle" and "high" level. I am sure that many others don´t. So perhaps it depends on who you are and your kung fu background.


The issue here is not what style is better.

The main issue here is for Wing Chuners to see another type of chi sao so as to perhaps better understand what they are doing in theirs.

They can also see a little bit of Chi-na in that clip (finger grab and throat grab) and a take down. That can only enlighten Wing Chuners who do not use Chi-na in their chi sao training.


But to rise above the style mindset and realize that body methods and core structures when founded upon physics transcend across styles....

But many styles use "physics" in different ways and some are more efficient than others. Of course, people can argue on which system is more efficient til the end of time, but we are not here for that.:)

[Hardwork108]

In chi sao, he was very hard, strong, fast. Hard bridges, very tense. Like a truck, but not wingchun definately. And using mere slapping, or hand muscles to power your strikes would yield no results against him. Breaking structure moves like Larp sao against his tense arms, neck, shoulder strikes were effective.

What I find contradictory there is the way you have described the master who came to you school. The descriptions of "hard bridges"; "very tense"; "like a truck" and "tense arms" do not correlate with any definition of a high level style of kung fu and do not certainly apply to Yap Leong´s technique nor the Five Ancestor kung fu that he teaches.

It all about softness and fine-tuned "listening" abilities when it comes to what he practices and teaches.

These are abilities that all Wing Chun (and any other kung fu stylists) should aim for.



But having said that, Wingchun is a soft, internal art. Its not Choy lay fut or 5 Ancestor....

Again, you will find that Yap Leong´s 5 Ancestor fist is VERY soft. However, I suppose just like Wing Chun there are "harder" or more external schools of Five Ancestors around and by definition these schools, just like their "harder" WC counterparts would be classified by some as low level kung fu schools.

I presume that the master who came to your school was from an external school of Five Ancestors. Your school is internal Wing Chun and hence a higher level to that of his school which was of course external. As a result he found your training to be enlightening and eye opening to him.

I will also add that most WC that I have come across in the Uk while I was living there was hard or could be classified more hard than soft.

Some Wing Chuners that I had talked did not even know what internals meant. My past interactions with some of the US and European Wing Chun members of this forum have suggested that many of them do not see WC as internal. Others do not see the difference between the internal and external. This wouls suggest that in most (NOT ALL!) cases they practice an external or a mainly external Wing Chun.

That is why in my post I stated " It is my understanding that it is a higher level style when compared to most Wing Chun around nowadays" [My emphasis]. I know there are internal schools of Wing Chun as I practice in one:)).



Me thinks, Its never the style, its the stylist. Every style is great, if you train hard enough.

Point taken, but I believe that there are better styles and worse ones.;)

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hey there Hardwork108
Let me qualify my answer by saying this, I dont do 5 Ancestor so I comment on it based on my experience with them, and some speculation

Compared to wingchun, it is hard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYSw0yUMZh8

I have been taught we would never be doing this. So when you see some Videos/Books like Randy Williams doing 3 star/ Sam Sing Blocking, its not the way. Sigung Yip Chun has said, the jong arms should never be used for bashing or hardening the forearms.

The hard soft theory is interesting. From my practice, Pakua to me is hard compared to taiji, Hsing i is harder than pakua, but coiling wise pakua is more sophiscated.

I believe the reason is wingchun is more widespread(thanks to guys like Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Yip Chun, Yip Ching, Wong Shun Leung, etc....too many great names),
As a side effect, the internal elements of wingchun are not taught, or people dont want to spend time to learn it. For internal practice, it takes a longer time, and faith in the Master. Internal training was always a closed door practice.
It helps to be able to read the kuen kuit and words(also because most chinese Sifus havent really learn english to any proficiency). Helps so you dont get pulled a fast one as well. I have found the protrayal of wingchun in China Forums very different from what is said in the western world.
Wingchun in the western world has largely become a physical practice, like boxing, muay thai etc.... Not that it is wrong, just different, but still effective.

In the movie Yip Man, Donnie Yen says one thing, dont just talk about kuen kuit(just be able to quote) you must be able to hit the person.
That to me, is the function of Chi Sao, whether its white crane, wingchun, taiji or 5 ancestor.

Here's a clip on internal wingchun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_lI2qM2i60

Its also not mainland versus hongkong that makes its more internal or external. Look at Masters Kenneth Chung, or Chu Shong Tin, or Wan Kam Leung
Hongkong wingchun is 90%(?) of wingchun in the world, hence along the way, many could have left out the internal training, rushing to learn to teach for a living.
While mainland wingchun styles are still close knit, hence, less chances of MAC Wingchun happening. Even though, these years, I have noticed some trend towards that, and increasing politics from Sifus wanting to make a living.

Here's a sharing from Sifu Wong Nim Yi, Mai Gei Wong School in Guangzhou China on the 12 Fatt.

米机王咏春12字诀歌

咏春拳经法中法，千技修来是一家。
深夜不眠拾遗诀，编成歌儿传后人。
十二字诀是妙谛，道尽本门法理劲。
摊字宜将身后仰，配合中拳取敌喉。
截伏拳意为诸封，身随敌势意不从。
沉者宽弹为长劲，劲长势长意更长。
标指轻灵随机转，还魂手法应无穷。
吞者吸纳为空劲，任他来势胜如牛。
切劲螺旋入敌骨，势势必迎敌劲截。
偷漏法门半变手，含机度势步中求。
粘摩劲讲不丢顶，舍己从人自然通。
烫荡势如长江水，滚滚浩瀚趋前浪。
后学才疏胡乱歌，修作书来赠有缘。
抛砖引玉为我旨，恭请不吝赐片言。
君度我为何方士，米机王子黄念怡。
自我始为米二世，君应为我第几传？
世世必留亲姓氏，千秋也有你我名。

And the 12 Fatt are

十二字诀为：
“摊”、“截”、“沉”、“标”、“吞”、“切”、“偷、漏”、“粘、摩”、“烫、荡”

[chusauli]

Here's a sharing from Sifu Wong Nim Yi, Mai Gei Wong School in Guangzhou China on the 12 Fatt.

十二字诀为：
“摊”、“截”、“沉”、“标”、“吞”、“切”、“偷、漏”、“粘、摩”、“烫、荡”

Its slightly different from the YKS version. But it is the essence of WCK.

[Hardwork108]

Hey there Hardwork108
Let me qualify my answer by saying this, I dont do 5 Ancestor so I comment on it based on my experience with them, and some speculation

Compared to wingchun, it is hard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYSw0yUMZh8

Hard forearms seem to be a trademark of 5 Ancestor sifus. However inspite of the physically hard forarms some of them have very "soft" touches.

[Shadow_warrior8]The hard soft theory is interesting. From my practice, Pakua to me is hard compared to taiji, Hsing i is harder than pakua, but coiling wise pakua is more sophiscated.[/quote]

The internals of kung fu are very rich and confusing but well worth practicing eternally.:)


I believe the reason is wingchun is more widespread(thanks to guys like Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Yip Chun, Yip Ching, Wong Shun Leung, etc....too many great names),
As a side effect, the internal elements of wingchun are not taught, or people dont want to spend time to learn it. For internal practice, it takes a longer time, and faith in the Master. Internal training was always a closed door practice.

You are absolutely right in what you say. I would add that some other styles of kung fu have the same problem and they include Five Ancestor Fist among others. I have seen "hard" and "soft" versions of other kung fu styles here in the West.

Over commercialism has had a very negative effect on the quality of kung fu available especially here in the West.

I have met a Wing Chun sifu in London that did know of the existance of the internals in this style. I believe that he was a good fighter but in my opinion his Wing Chun was incomplete.

And I have always talked about this here in the forum saying that if the internals are missing from one´s kung fu training then the training is incomplete.


I have found the protrayal of wingchun in China Forums very different from what is said in the western world.

I believe you wholeheartedly!


Wingchun in the western world has largely become a physical practice, like boxing, muay thai etc.... Not that it is wrong, just different, but still effective.

But yet unfortunately incomplete when compared to the original design of the style.


In the movie Yip Man, Donnie Yen says one thing, dont just talk about kuen kuit(just be able to quote) you must be able to hit the person.
That to me, is the function of Chi Sao, whether its white crane, wingchun, taiji or 5 ancestor.

Agreed. But to get there Chi Sao training will help with distancing, sensitivity,listening etc. All of which come together to give you the ability to hit the person.:)


Here's a clip on internal wingchun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_lI2qM2i60

Thank you, good clip.


Its also not mainland versus hongkong that makes its more internal or external. Look at Masters Kenneth Chung, or Chu Shong Tin, or Wan Kam Leung
Hongkong wingchun is 90%(?) of wingchun in the world, hence along the way, many could have left out the internal training, rushing to learn to teach for a living.

That is what has happened in the West hence all the misunderstanding about the internals here.



While mainland wingchun styles are still close knit, hence, less chances of MAC Wingchun happening.

You are right. I practice Mainland Chinese Wing Chun and I suppose that is why that we place such importance on "softness"/internal training.


Even though, these years, I have noticed some trend towards that, and increasing politics from Sifus wanting to make a living.

Unfortunately that is an universal phenomenom.:(


Here's a sharing from Sifu Wong Nim Yi, Mai Gei Wong School in Guangzhou China on the 12 Fatt.

米机王咏春12字诀歌

咏春拳经法中法，千技修来是一家。
深夜不眠拾遗诀，编成歌儿传后人。
十二字诀是妙谛，道尽本门法理劲。
摊字宜将身后仰，配合中拳取敌喉。
截伏拳意为诸封，身随敌势意不从。
沉者宽弹为长劲，劲长势长意更长。
标指轻灵随机转，还魂手法应无穷。
吞者吸纳为空劲，任他来势胜如牛。
切劲螺旋入敌骨，势势必迎敌劲截。
偷漏法门半变手，含机度势步中求。
粘摩劲讲不丢顶，舍己从人自然通。
烫荡势如长江水，滚滚浩瀚趋前浪。
后学才疏胡乱歌，修作书来赠有缘。
抛砖引玉为我旨，恭请不吝赐片言。
君度我为何方士，米机王子黄念怡。
自我始为米二世，君应为我第几传？
世世必留亲姓氏，千秋也有你我名。

And the 12 Fatt are

十二字诀为：
“摊”、“截”、“沉”、“标”、“吞”、“切”、“偷、漏”、“粘、摩”、“烫、荡”

I don´t speak or read Chinese. Is there a translation of the above available?:)

[Hardwork108]

Here's a sharing from Sifu Wong Nim Yi, Mai Gei Wong School in Guangzhou China on the 12 Fatt.

十二字诀为：
“摊”、“截”、“沉”、“标”、“吞”、“切”、“偷、漏”、“粘、摩”、“烫、荡”

Its slightly different from the YKS version. But it is the essence of WCK.

Is there a translation of this available, sifu?

[CFT]

Cantonese romanisation.

摊 - tan - spread
截 - jeet - intercept
沉 - chum - sink
标 - biu - dart
吞 - tun - swallow
切 - chit - cut
偷 - tau - steal
漏 - lau - leak
粘 - nim - stick
摩 - mor - grind
烫 - tong - scald/heat (?)
荡 - dong - swing (float?)

[Shadow_warrior8]

Get Rene's Book on Yuen Kay San Wingchun, it explains these concepts very well.

Copied this from Somewhere(thanks to whoever wrote this), but its a great explaination of the 12 Fatt.
Slightly different from the chinese words above

Dap (Da) derives from ‘the hand joined like many mouths in agreement’ and means ‘to join to bridges’
Jeet (Jie) derives from ‘a lance hitting a sparrow’ and means ‘to intercept, cut off, or sever’
Chum (Chen) derives from ‘a stool submerged beneath the water’ and means ‘to sink’
Biu (Biao) derives from ‘metal pointed like flame’ and means ‘to dart’.
Chi (Chi) derives from ‘glutinous millet ground by a horned animal (yak)’ and means ‘to stick’
Mo (Mo) derives from ‘hand like the sun dispearing behind the foliage’ and means ‘to touch or feel’
Tong (Yun) derives from ‘a hand using a hot iron’, and means ‘to press or iron clothes’
Dong (Dang) derives from ‘soup swaying in the saucer’ and means ‘to swing or sway’
Tun (Tun) derives from ‘mouth enlarged as heaven’ and means ‘to swallow’
Chit (Qie) derives from ‘to cross with a knife’, and means ‘to cut or slice into’.
Tao (Tou) derives from ‘a person assembling a boat (to cross a river)’ and means ‘to steal’
Lao (Lou) derives from ‘rain water leaking through the roof and into the house’ and means ‘to leak.’

[Hardwork108]

Get Rene's Book on Yuen Kay San Wingchun, it explains these concepts very well.

Copied this from Somewhere(thanks to whoever wrote this), but its a great explaination of the 12 Fatt.
Slightly different from the chinese words above

Dap (Da) derives from ‘the hand joined like many mouths in agreement’ and means ‘to join to bridges’
Jeet (Jie) derives from ‘a lance hitting a sparrow’ and means ‘to intercept, cut off, or sever’
Chum (Chen) derives from ‘a stool submerged beneath the water’ and means ‘to sink’
Biu (Biao) derives from ‘metal pointed like flame’ and means ‘to dart’.
Chi (Chi) derives from ‘glutinous millet ground by a horned animal (yak)’ and means ‘to stick’
Mo (Mo) derives from ‘hand like the sun dispearing behind the foliage’ and means ‘to touch or feel’
Tong (Yun) derives from ‘a hand using a hot iron’, and means ‘to press or iron clothes’
Dong (Dang) derives from ‘soup swaying in the saucer’ and means ‘to swing or sway’
Tun (Tun) derives from ‘mouth enlarged as heaven’ and means ‘to swallow’
Chit (Qie) derives from ‘to cross with a knife’, and means ‘to cut or slice into’.
Tao (Tou) derives from ‘a person assembling a boat (to cross a river)’ and means ‘to steal’
Lao (Lou) derives from ‘rain water leaking through the roof and into the house’ and means ‘to leak.’

Thanks. :)

[Hendrik]

I like the following song

翻天覆地携手浪逐浪
千杯不醉只醉月光
会心一笑不必讲
对看一切都雪亮
赤手空拳心机里攻防


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn8Wj5O1Ghc&feature=related



Enjoy


the War of heart... what is not hand?

[shaolinfist]

I beg to differ

We had a 5 Ancestor Master/Doctor in private practice who learnt for 20 over years in Malaysia and when he discovered wingchun, he crossed the causeway to Singapore, just to learn Yip Chun Wingchun. He even went back to malaysia and brought his 5 Ancestor Students to learn from my Sifu.
His comments were he had to relearn "everything" again.
Interestingly he told us a story about his fellow siheng, who burst a blood vessel "playing" with a young guy in class, he died.

In chi sao, he was very hard, strong, fast. Hard bridges, very tense. Like a truck, but not wingchun definately. And using mere slapping, or hand muscles to power your strikes would yield no results against him. Breaking structure moves like Larp sao against his tense arms, neck, shoulder strikes were effective.

In wingchun we want to use just enough energy, economy of motion/energy, and to be Sung/relax. Structure, angles, body sticking, whole body attacks, signatures of wingchun are needed.
The wingchun chi sao positions are far from "fixed", every position is held just enough to react to the amount of force the hands receive and every angled hand has its principle in physical body structure principles e.g elbows tips pointing down, so the muscles wrap around the bone.

But having said that, Wingchun is a soft, internal art. Its not Choy lay fut or 5 Ancestor....
In the words of a Senior who gave me some tips in another wingchun lineage,
If Wingchun is hard versus hard, then we can forget about wingchun

Me thinks, Its never the style, its the stylist. Every style is great, if you train hard enough.


There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is !

[Hardwork108]

I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is !

Unfortunately I agree with you.:(

There are good schools that deal with sensitivity and internal aspects as well as other kung fu elements, but they are very very and I mean very rare.

[Jammydog]

There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is !

Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.


FYI, IP verification shows they are not the same person.

[Hardwork108]

Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.

Jammydog,

As the moderator has pointed out you are wrong. There is a big problem with wing chun nowadays. It has become a victim of its own popularity and hence most schools are just money making machines and most of them miss the internal elements that give kung fu its essence.

I still practise Wing Chun and consider myself lucky to have foung an authentic school that practises Wing Chun in all its aspects including the internals and Iron Palm.

Take care.:)

[Yoshiyahu]

Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.

Ha ha my friend...Actually I could not be same person as Clam61 because i dont agree with everything he says. As for those three speaking of the five ancestors. I can not share any info concerning the five ancestors because I am not really sure what kung fu style that is. So I can merely listen I never studied anything called the five ancestors. But it does sound interesting. I would love to touch hands with someone who practices it.

As for WC being internal. I do agree with that. But that doesn't make me the same person. Sorry friend. I am person who dislikes BJJ i believe Clam favors BJJ...So that would discount me as being the same person. Sorry for you being wrong. ha ha...Besides I live in a totally different state than those guys.

[Shaolin Fist]

I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is !

The hollow in your Wing Chun is more likely a reflection on your own personal lack of comprehension and level of skill attained in Chi Sau.

The inciting and immature comments you made above does nothing but reflect poorly on your own training inadequacies. For if it were really the case i dont see a mad rush of students from the Wing Chun community knocking at his door.

Regardless i have actually exchanged hands with Sifu Yap Leong and have a high respect for his level of skill. I'm sure he would be the first to attribute skill before style and even says so in the short clip. 5 Ancestors is itself combination of many kung fu styles.

If you do indeed do not have an personal or polictical agenda maybe you would like to tell me who you have trained with ? or even PM me

[Hardwork108]

The hollow in your Wing Chun is more likely a reflection on your own personal lack of comprehension and level of skill attained in Chi Sau.

With all due respect I think that he was referring to the popular mainstream Wing Chun franchises. Or am I wrong?:confused:

Well I could be so maybe ShaolinFist can clarify things.

I would just say again that there is not anything wrong with Wing Chun, the problem is in the way it is practised in the majority of schools nowadays, just like most of the other kung fu styles. It is just that, because of its popularity, Wing Chun and its shorcomings (when badly trained) are more visible.


The inciting and pathetic comment you made above does nothing but reflect poorly on your own training inadequacies. For if it were really the case i dont see a mad rush of students from the Wing Chun community knocking at his door.

To be honest and I know this from posting experience here in the forums, a lot of Wing Chuners and other kung fu stylists with so called "credentials" don't seem to be aware of the internal side of kung fu. It is a case of "if you want to improve your kung fu then find a partner, get in the ring and hit each other!". This is enfortunate but true.

Sometimes when on mentions the internal side of Wing Chun or kung fu one is met with jokes about magic powers and fantasy. Luckily some new and recent posters have discussed the internals in a knowing and serious manner, but even some them have been met with ridicule by the knucklehead fraternity in this forum. So I would say the majority of Wing Chunners here do not practise the internal side of their art and hence their kung fu is incomplete.


5 Ancestors is itself combination of many kung fu styles.
Very true.:)

[Shadow_warrior8]

There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is !

This is a pointless retort that doesnt go beyond I believe my sifu is the best in the world kind of thing

What does it mean his energy is complete? What kind of energy? Please describe.

What do you mean wingchun is hallow? In what way? What kind of wingchun energy did you practice? Who was your Sifu? How much wingchun did he learn? How much time did you spend practicing?

This is not about wingchun is better or Wu Zu is better. Its a personal choice.
Wuzu and Wingchun are definately different in many ways.
Any one trying to compare these as which is better are just doing apples with pears, not the same.

[shaolinfist]

The hollow in your Wing Chun is more likely a reflection on your own personal lack of comprehension and level of skill attained in Chi Sau.

The inciting and pathetic comment you made above does nothing but reflect poorly on your own training inadequacies. For if it were really the case i dont see a mad rush of students from the Wing Chun community knocking at his door.

Regardless i have actually trained with Sifu Yap Leong and know him quite well. He would be the first to attribute skill before style and even says so in the short clip. 5 Ancestors is itself combination of many kung fu styles.

If you do indeed do not have an personal or polictical agenda maybe you would like to tell me who you have trained with ? or even PM me

my 21 years experience tells me that its more than just my inadequate grasp of wing chun and chi sau that backs up my comparison between wc and 5a, maybe one of the reasons sifu yap leongs door isnt being burst open by wing chun students
is because 1. they are very proud. 2 it takes alot of time patience and seasoning to become empty and voidlike. beyond what most people can give there time and energy too. I f you know sifu yap leong then you will also know that pound for pound 5a is superior, of course you would know if you have played with him.

I have no political agenda here just experience, on that note could you clarfiy what you mean by "PM to me" ? reading my cv is not the same as touching hands.

[shaolinfist]

This is a pointless retort that doesnt go beyond I believe my sifu is the best in the world kind of thing

What does it mean his energy is complete? What kind of energy? Please describe.

What do you mean wingchun is hallow? In what way? What kind of wingchun energy did you practice? Who was your Sifu? How much wingchun did he learn? How much time did you spend practicing?

This is not about wingchun is better or Wu Zu is better. Its a personal choice.
Wuzu and Wingchun are definately different in many ways.
Any one trying to compare these as which is better are just doing apples with pears, not the same.


you remarks are quite contradictory, was it not you who first stated it was YOUR Sifu who taught the 5 a master. either you are on yourway into the tao and i havent seen the profoundness of your words or you dont think before you speak. pride is a crippler.

What i mean by complete energy is that it seems you cant even move when you touch hands with sifu leong let alone bong tan pak sau etc.. if you go soft you will fall into the emptiness and void if you go hard you float. i feel that wing chun as a style doesnt provide an appropriate framework to develop this.

you can say that there are internal schools of wing chun that is correct, but still the principles and framework of these styles are still flawed in my opinion. wether
a bong sau is done soft hard or whatever way it still isnt a very good posture.
I know what you are going to say " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes" if it has no shape then how is it wing chun?.

I hope that helps.

you are right there is no comparison

[Hardwork108]

you can say that there are internal schools of wing chun that is correct, but still the principles and framework of these styles are still flawed in my opinion. wether
a bong sau is done soft hard or whatever way it still isnt a very good posture.
I know what you are going to say " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes" if it has no shape then how is it wing chun?.

Well if there is not shape then you will still have the wing chun principles as as a guide. After all in higher levels of practise one is not even suppose to use blocks.



You are right there is no comparison

You know, I would say that everyone here will know that not all kung fu styles are equal. That means that there are kung fu styles that are better than others and the little I know about 5a fist would in my opinion put it ahead of Wing Chun.

So I am not going to say that because I do WC then it is the best. I got over that kind stuff when I was around 8 years old.

Wu Zhu Quan seems to have "deeper" internals and of course uses more in your face techniques, that is, force is discipated not by turning your stance but by the use of soft force through the upper limbs, while facing the opponent squarely, am I correct?

Of course, anyone reading this can correct me with more info in such aspects within WC. Or perhaps we can even start a new thread and compare these arts which at some level share similarities but are very different.

Tell us more about Sifu Yap Leong as well.

[Phil Redmond]

And here's his method of dealing with WC chi sao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJIthqEqGk0&feature=related

[Shadow_warrior8]

you remarks are quite contradictory, was it not you who first stated it was YOUR Sifu who taught the 5 a master. either you are on yourway into the tao and i havent seen the profoundness of your words or you dont think before you speak. pride is a crippler.

What i mean by complete energy is that it seems you cant even move when you touch hands with sifu leong let alone bong tan pak sau etc.. if you go soft you will fall into the emptiness and void if you go hard you float. i feel that wing chun as a style doesnt provide an appropriate framework to develop this.

you can say that there are internal schools of wing chun that is correct, but still the principles and framework of these styles are still flawed in my opinion. wether
a bong sau is done soft hard or whatever way it still isnt a very good posture.
I know what you are going to say " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes" if it has no shape then how is it wing chun?.

I hope that helps.

you are right there is no comparison

Tao? pride? You talk like you know me. Profoundness? You say statements that say nothing- so I ask you to present your evidence of your training and your knowledge. Its not a surprise you get personal and go off track.

Yes I said my sifu taught a Wuzu master who converted to wingchun. Did I say wingchun was better or Wuzu? It was a personal choice, just like what I said in my last email.

What has my words got to do with your claim that wingchun is hallow?
What has it got to do with your claim you studied wingchun? Hence I asked you how long you studied. How long have your spend practicing? Who was your Sifu?
You use your experience with a Wuzu master to describe wingchun being hallow?
Its like saying I am having a pear and talking about how ALL apples taste weird.
How many apples did you taste? How many internal wingchun masters did you seek out?(and point, there really arent that many)
Framework? Please describe your previous wingchun framework/body structure, methods to generate striking force.

Internal wingchun schools structure are flawed. Please share, what is flawed.

Why you talking like you know me? Or know what I am going to say- " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes"? What have your been smoking? Your MA training trains ESP too? This is not kuen kuit yeah? I have never heard these claims on bong sao or advance wingchun. What does that mean- advanced?

If there are not comparisons, then you have just slapped yourself on the face. You signed up on KF forums just to retort a comparison for Wuzu and Wingchun. Your pride to defend Wuzu is what is happening here. If you like your training with Sifu Yap, share. Dont talk down about other arts. They aint got nothing to do with your training with him right?
Note- I am not defending wingchun(wingchun doesnt need defending) I am merely relating experiences of what a Wuzu Master said to me, when he trained with us. You however are claiming to know all about wingchun and belittle it, and put Wuzu higher.

However when someone belittles another art, I want to know, what is your basis? What kind of training with references, names, description, instead of vague words of nothing.

Please share your training for unifed body structure, spine, kua, shoulder nest. How to open and close these gates?
How do you train coiling of tendons and muscles. How do you train kung lik?
Do you do big heavenly circulation or small heavenly circulation?
Do you breath through the yongquan? How do you train rooting?

Nothing to get personal, what all this tao, pride talk. Talk mechanics, details, leave the my daddy is better than yours for the playground.
My respect for TCMA says all styles are good, and we honour the style, the ancestors and the way. The only reason why someone says another is better is because the other person trained harder, or the person who is making a observation isnt qualified to do so- Not knowing where or what to look for.

I still love training with my Wuzu/Wingchun mates when they come to visit because they can switch on Wuzu and we can have a party. We always walk away with new found respect for each other, and learning something new.

The fact that you are willing to put down your own lineage of other practitioners of Wuzu to play up the name of Sifu Yap speaks volumes
As if wingchun doesnt have enough internal family problems with claims of who is more authentic, which master was better, who taught who, who beat up who etc.....We need to have other lineages claiming wingchun is hallow.


There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is !

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hardwork108

This is true of alot of chinese arts e.g taiji, wingchun(see a description by Jim when he met Senior Hendrik)- Its alot similar to what was described of Sifu Leung. This is true of my experience with my internal arts sigung.

I study Hsing I, bagua, yiquan, taiji, qigong in our lineage together with internal wingchun.
Its all very deep. I still have a long way to go to manifest what the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit(Senior Hendrik lineage) describes.

To root a force, you have to be soft, and it goes into the ground. If you are hard- it doesnt help because you are running on lik- strength energy.

[Shaolin Fist]

I f you know sifu yap leong then you will also know that pound for pound 5a is superior, of course you would know if you have played with him.

Its a fact that there are good teachers and bad ones. The kung fu world is not regulated nor is it based on performance or results. A teacher could be crap yet still open up a school, these days it seems more like a type of leisure business.

Forget the fact that the teacher might be unskilled in the first place we also have so many schools being opened and run by inexperienced teachers (less 5 years of experience)

I could say i have played a Wing Chun guy in the past who have did the same to me and made me feel inferior what's your point ? so i dare say you are talking from limited experience, not from the number of years of experience but rather from a limited exposure to the number of good Wing Chun teachers.

To make such a big sweeping statement based on what experience ?...........If you had traded hands with at least 5 Wing Chun teachers of different lineages (with over 25 years experience) and then maybe your comments wouldn't come across (in your own word's) ......... 'Hollow'

The forums are a place to share our experiences and all styles are welcomed but all you have done is to sow the seeds in creating bad blood. Hardly in the spirit of Shaolin.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Its a fact that there are good teachers and bad ones. The kung fu world is not regulated nor is it based on performance or results. A teacher could be crap yet still open up a school, these days it seems more like a type of leisure business.

Forget the fact that the teacher might be unskilled in the first place we also have so many schools being opened and run by inexperienced teachers (less 5 years of experience)

I could say i have played a Wing Chun guy in the past who have did the same to me and made me feel inferior what's your point ? so i dare say you are talking from limited experience, not from the number of years of experience but rather from a limited exposure to the number of good Wing Chun teachers.

To make such a big sweeping statement based on what experience ?...........If you had traded hands with at least 5 Wing Chun teachers of different lineages (with over 25 years experience) and then maybe your comments wouldn't come across (in your own word's) ......... 'Hollow'

The forums are a place to share our experiences and all styles are welcomed but all you have done is to sow the seeds in creating bad blood. Hardly in the spirit of Shaolin.


Shaolin Fist, you are making a great point

I liked Sifu Yaps demos and a good representation of Wuzu. I also liked Sifu Samuel Kwoks demos which show wingchun and his ability to strike with shock energy. And I respect many other sifus around.
There is no such nonsense as pound for pound Wuzu is superior. Is he claiming Sifu Yap claims so? I could then say, pound for pound bruce lee or mohd ali or yip man or wong shun leung etc....is superior. Means absolutely....NOTHING!!!

Here we want to talk about Chinese Martial Arts engines, pistons, rods, air intake, exhaust manifold, extractors, tuning etc..... Serious stuff.
Talk like my daddy has a bigger car, hence he is better than you, is reserved for the playground.

Back in the day, Yip Man's clan forged the name of wingchun through challenge matches. Master Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung etc... Bruce Lee was known for his skill. In taiwan wingchun is used for its police. In Germany, the special forces use wingtsun.
Anyone saying wingchun is unrealistic or cant be used or is a hollow shell is smoking something I dont want any of.

[shaolinfist]

Well if there is not shape then you will still have the wing chun principles as as a guide. After all in higher levels of practise one is not even suppose to use blocks.




You know, I would say that everyone here will know that not all kung fu styles are equal. That means that there are kung fu styles that are better than others and the little I know about 5a fist would in my opinion put it ahead of Wing Chun.

So I am not going to say that because I do WC then it is the best. I got over that kind stuff when I was around 8 years old.

Wu Zhu Quan seems to have "deeper" internals and of course uses more in your face techniques, that is, force is discipated not by turning your stance but by the use of soft force through the upper limbs, while facing the opponent squarely, am I correct?

Of course, anyone reading this can correct me with more info in such aspects within WC. Or perhaps we can even start a new thread and compare these arts which at some level share similarities but are very different.

Tell us more about Sifu Yap Leong as well.

you are right in stating that a majority of 5a principles are conducted squarely.
and the enrgy in certain branches of the system are soft and internal, i too am not of the school of what i do is the best, only in my experience of wc and 5a that i have to say 5a is superior. I think it would be a good idea to be constructive and exchange views and comments rather than tit for tat nonsense that we should of exorcised in the playground. easier said than done people in the martial arts are proud !.

true the higher the level the less need for the earlier structures, although what is advanced ?someone could have all the knowledge and still not be able to play, therefore still needing structure. perhaps we will all attain wu - chi ? but probably not in this lifetime.

go to shaolinway.com see more about Sifu Leong.

[shaolinfist]

Its a fact that there are good teachers and bad ones. The kung fu world is not regulated nor is it based on performance or results. A teacher could be crap yet still open up a school, these days it seems more like a type of leisure business.

Forget the fact that the teacher might be unskilled in the first place we also have so many schools being opened and run by inexperienced teachers (less 5 years of experience)

I could say i have played a Wing Chun guy in the past who have did the same to me and made me feel inferior what's your point ? so i dare say you are talking from limited experience, not from the number of years of experience but rather from a limited exposure to the number of good Wing Chun teachers.

To make such a big sweeping statement based on what experience ?...........If you had traded hands with at least 5 Wing Chun teachers of different lineages (with over 25 years experience) and then maybe your comments wouldn't come across (in your own word's) ......... 'Hollow'

The forums are a place to share our experiences and all styles are welcomed but all you have done is to sow the seeds in creating bad blood. Hardly in the spirit of Shaolin.


whether you take my statement as sweeping or not is up to you, in my experience which you keep saying is limited, i have found that 5a is for me superior, also what bad blood all i have done is asked someone to explain themselves, it stilll confounds me that rather than credit the good points of another style you discredit them saying thats not proper wing chun etc.. if you have played with sifu leong you will know this !

forums are also for debate and difference. I have traded hands with several wing chun practitioners some better than others. also one shouldnt blindly follow without questioning, the spirit of shaolin ill leave up to shaw brothers.

Saying that i agree that there are alot of bad so called sifu who run schools
as well as some very skilled practioners who teach. The catalyst for this debate
the 5ancestors chi sau shows that there are some very advanced sifu who are thankfully still around.

[shaolinfist]

Tao? pride? You talk like you know me. Profoundness? You say statements that say nothing- so I ask you to present your evidence of your training and your knowledge. Its not a surprise you get personal and go off track.

Yes I said my sifu taught a Wuzu master who converted to wingchun. Did I say wingchun was better or Wuzu? It was a personal choice, just like what I said in my last email.

What has my words got to do with your claim that wingchun is hallow?
What has it got to do with your claim you studied wingchun? Hence I asked you how long you studied. How long have your spend practicing? Who was your Sifu?
You use your experience with a Wuzu master to describe wingchun being hallow?
Its like saying I am having a pear and talking about how ALL apples taste weird.
How many apples did you taste? How many internal wingchun masters did you seek out?(and point, there really arent that many)
Framework? Please describe your previous wingchun framework/body structure, methods to generate striking force.

Internal wingchun schools structure are flawed. Please share, what is flawed.

Why you talking like you know me? Or know what I am going to say- " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes"? What have your been smoking? Your MA training trains ESP too? This is not kuen kuit yeah? I have never heard these claims on bong sao or advance wingchun. What does that mean- advanced?

If there are not comparisons, then you have just slapped yourself on the face. You signed up on KF forums just to retort a comparison for Wuzu and Wingchun. Your pride to defend Wuzu is what is happening here. If you like your training with Sifu Yap, share. Dont talk down about other arts. They aint got nothing to do with your training with him right?
Note- I am not defending wingchun(wingchun doesnt need defending) I am merely relating experiences of what a Wuzu Master said to me, when he trained with us. You however are claiming to know all about wingchun and belittle it, and put Wuzu higher.

However when someone belittles another art, I want to know, what is your basis? What kind of training with references, names, description, instead of vague words of nothing.

Please share your training for unifed body structure, spine, kua, shoulder nest. How to open and close these gates?
How do you train coiling of tendons and muscles. How do you train kung lik?
Do you do big heavenly circulation or small heavenly circulation?
Do you breath through the yongquan? How do you train rooting?

Nothing to get personal, what all this tao, pride talk. Talk mechanics, details, leave the my daddy is better than yours for the playground.
My respect for TCMA says all styles are good, and we honour the style, the ancestors and the way. The only reason why someone says another is better is because the other person trained harder, or the person who is making a observation isnt qualified to do so- Not knowing where or what to look for.

I still love training with my Wuzu/Wingchun mates when they come to visit because they can switch on Wuzu and we can have a party. We always walk away with new found respect for each other, and learning something new.

The fact that you are willing to put down your own lineage of other practitioners of Wuzu to play up the name of Sifu Yap speaks volumes
As if wingchun doesnt have enough internal family problems with claims of who is more authentic, which master was better, who taught who, who beat up who etc.....We need to have other lineages claiming wingchun is hallow.

wing chun internal family problems thats an understatement, like you my experience is subjective, we live in a world of relativity, my experience of wing chun is just that my experience, so your ranting on, makes no difference. you can say whatever you like it doesnt take away my perspective. you can have the best lineage and still get walloped. Like you said its the skill of the individual, your understanding is clear from your loaded remarks.

I have never said sifu yap leong is my sifu, just that his work is inspiring.

the more on the outside the less inside. why dont you put a video up and reveal all your secrets ! youll have to pay for mine.

[Shaolin Fist]

whether you take my statement as sweeping or not is up to you, in my experience which you keep saying is limited, i have found that 5a is for me superior, also what bad blood all i have done is asked someone to explain themselves, it stilll confounds me that rather than credit the good points of another style you discredit them saying thats not proper wing chun etc.. if you have played with sifu leong you will know this !


Ok i'll speak in your language so we cross wires.............

I think 5 Ancestors is definately 'Inferior' to Wing Chun because 10 years ago i got truly done over by a 30 plus years experienced Wing Chun master who i thought was going to be a pushover. As i was armed with some of what i thought was Superior 5 Ancestor chi sau bullets i went in with all guns blazing.
But alas as the stories went, i lost my chi sau chalengne :(

Based on that i can only conclude that Wing Chun is a Superior System to 5 Ancestors.

Oh dont get me wrong, let me give 'credit' to 5-Ancestors as they do have a 'few good points' :rolleyes:

Ok after i have finish my popcorn i gonna train my Superior Wing Chun moves..........

[Hardwork108]

you are right in stating that a majority of 5a principles are conducted squarely.
and the enrgy in certain branches of the system are soft and internal, i too am not of the school of what i do is the best, only in my experience of wc and 5a that i have to say 5a is superior. I think it would be a good idea to be constructive and exchange views and comments rather than tit for tat nonsense that we should of exorcised in the playground. easier said than done people in the martial arts are proud !.

I agree with you there. We can only base our opinions on our own experiences. Again I would say that I have not even reached a high level in Wing Chun let alone compare it to higher levels in 5 ancestor fist.


true the higher the level the less need for the earlier structures, although what is advanced ?someone could have all the knowledge and still not be able to play, therefore still needing structure. perhaps we will all attain wu - chi ? but probably not in this lifetime.

You are right about wuji it is at least a lifetime's work and search, but what a great way to spend a lifetime, eh?:)

For those who are unfamiliar with this concept then I will only say that I doubt that you will get this through heavy weight training programs nor by excessively concentrating on ring sports.

For wuji read higher level kung fu.:)

[Shadow_warrior8]

wing chun internal family problems thats an understatement, like you my experience is subjective, we live in a world of relativity, my experience of wing chun is just that my experience, so your ranting on, makes no difference. you can say whatever you like it doesnt take away my perspective. you can have the best lineage and still get walloped. Like you said its the skill of the individual, your understanding is clear from your loaded remarks.

I have never said sifu yap leong is my sifu, just that his work is inspiring.

the more on the outside the less inside. why dont you put a video up and reveal all your secrets ! youll have to pay for mine.

So you havent even trained with Sifu Yap? And you say pound for pound he's the best? You can tell this from the video? So he's not your sifu?

I am merely asking you to explain what you mean, and I am using your terms
Internal wingchun schools structure are flawed
wingchun is hallow?
bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes"?

Your secrets? Its okay, not interested. You actually believe your "secrets" are worth money? Hahahahah.....Traditional TCMA masters dont sell out for money.
Use Wuzu terminology, or chinese TCMA terms, see if I can carry a conversation on internal training.

You belittle the name of wingchun and I would like to know what basis you make such statements on an art that has been a reputation since the 70/80s for being a formidable fighting style. Thousands of people have spent their lives, time, effort to spread wingchun all around the world, we cant have someone come around and claim its HOLLOW.
You come to a WINGCHUN forum and made demeaning statements on wingchun that you cant back up. Its like going to Chinatown and saying chinese are sick men of asia- I am chinese, I will back my culture up

[Shadow_warrior8]

Ok i'll speak in your language so we cross wires.............

I think 5 Ancestors is definately 'Inferior' to Wing Chun because 10 years ago i got truly done over by a 30 plus years experienced Wing Chun master who i thought was going to be a pushover. As i was armed with some of what i thought was Superior 5 Ancestor chi sau bullets i went in with all guns blazing.
But alas as the stories went, i lost my chi sau chalengne :(

Based on that i can only conclude that Wing Chun is a Superior System to 5 Ancestors.

Oh dont get me wrong, let me give 'credit' to 5-Ancestors as they do have a 'few good points' :rolleyes:

Ok after i have finish my popcorn i gonna train my Superior Wing Chun moves..........

My exchange with Wuzu guys are interesting
Firstly, their hands are really hard and strong and they hit like a Mule, a definate force to be reckoned with
Feels alot like Choy lay Fut or Hung Kuen kinda hands, except they tend to be close range and compact like wingchun.
Larp sao and pak sao on them, feels like hitting a brick wall.
So if we chi sao and think use more strength-lik, you will be defeated.
So what do we do?
Here, in the words of the Wuzu Master/brother, these videos show why he switched to wingchun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsgRXduHjYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5uTr5fA1Lw

[Hardwork108]

And here's his method of dealing with WC chi sao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJIthqEqGk0&feature=related

Very interesting and thank you. Lets discuss.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Very interesting and thank you. Lets discuss.

What do you think of the demo?
Heavy hands, strong striking very good representation of Wuzu
Check out this awesome demo
http://www.56.com/u30/v_MjQ0MjUwMzU.html

Personally I like and respect Wuzu, its practical and direct and very traditional.
http://www.56.com/u79/v_NDE0NTkyNDQ.html
It reminds of some hard wingchun stylist, like Hard Bridge Wingchun and some masters who mix Choy Lay Fut/Hung Kuen into wingchun
And I believe they took part in 太平天囯
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

And how does wingchun handle Hard force?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsgRXduHjYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5uTr5fA1Lw

But wingchun has a internal style, taught by Yik Kam, Leung Bik, others being a more feminine style. Thats where the jewels of wingchun are.
Years ago, a senior said to me Wingchun is a internal style and his lineage is not Iron Fist of Chu Chong Man, or Swallow Weight kung lik kind of energy.
After so many years, I have just a little insight into what he meant.

[Shaolin Fist]

My exchange with Wuzu guys are interesting
Firstly, their hands are really hard and strong and they hit like a Mule, a definate force to be reckoned with
Feels alot like Choy lay Fut or Hung Kuen kinda hands, except they tend to be close range and compact like wingchun.
Larp sao and pak sao on them, feels like hitting a brick wall.
So if we chi sao and think use more strength-lik, you will be defeated.
So what do we do?

Shadow_warrior8- Sorry that last post was just meant to be sarcastic. Was just making the point that shaolinfist must either trolling or extremly very immature.

Can you imagine us joining a 5 Ancestor chat forum.......informing them their system is inferior to Wing Chun.........and then saying ' Hi lets have a nice sensible chat about it' ???

S_W8 you have shared some similar experiences to myself but i'll discuss those points a little later.

Just curious though have you ever tried encorporating any of their energetics into your Wing Chun ?

[shaolinfist]

So you havent even trained with Sifu Yap? And you say pound for pound he's the best? You can tell this from the video? So he's not your sifu?

I am merely asking you to explain what you mean, and I am using your terms
Internal wingchun schools structure are flawed
wingchun is hallow?
bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes"?

Your secrets? Its okay, not interested. You actually believe your "secrets" are worth money? Hahahahah.....Traditional TCMA masters dont sell out for money.
Use Wuzu terminology, or chinese TCMA terms, see if I can carry a conversation on internal training.

You belittle the name of wingchun and I would like to know what basis you make such statements on an art that has been a reputation since the 70/80s for being a formidable fighting style. Thousands of people have spent their lives, time, effort to spread wingchun all around the world, we cant have someone come around and claim its HOLLOW.
You come to a WINGCHUN forum and made demeaning statements on wingchun that you cant back up. Its like going to Chinatown and saying chinese are sick men of asia- I am chinese, I will back my culture up


i was drawn to this friutless dialogue, because of the Sifu Yap Leong Video as i have an interest in 5a, All of the above statements were originally made by wing chun practioners, who were defending there point of view when challenged

I said pound for pound 5a is superior, Sifu Leongs reputation is formidable
all who have played with him know that especially the countless wing chun sifu
who were too shamed to acknowledge there defeats. Now if you are what you say you are then you wont asked me to get the list, out of respect for the tcma
you will want to give face. Everyone knows that the lure of a big red packet can make any tom **** harry a closed door disciple !

by hollow i mean the wing chun in my experience from playing and observing, has been one dimensional not "live" the blocking was dead, no absorbing or listening.
i came onto the forum to challenge perceptions of the video on u tube. In which you will find innane comments by wing chun practioners saying bong sau is for novices, advanced wing chun has no shapes.
In principle advanced kung fu doesnt have any shapes because the masters have gone beyong being readable.
but how many masters are that good, not yip man not bruce lee he actually left wing chun to create his own style ? if wing chun practitioners cant face a bit of critcism, then i feel the insecurity of there skill and style reveals itself. You can tell me to my face that 5 a is crap, thats ok, but if we touch hands and you loose would you say your wing chun is inferior? the proof is in the pudding. it may be true that yip man clan faced many challenges in there time and spread the wing chun gospel, but like every religion questions need to be asked, why is it that alot of wing chun fighters cross train ? whats wrong with
their kung fu ? the main reason wing chun became popular was because of the bruce lee films in the 70s/80s more inclined to thank golden harvest, for the boom in the 70s.

[Hardwork108]

What do you think of the demo?
Heavy hands, strong striking very good representation of Wuzu
Check out this awesome demo
http://www.56.com/u30/v_MjQ0MjUwMzU.html

Personally I like and respect Wuzu, its practical and direct and very traditional.
http://www.56.com/u79/v_NDE0NTkyNDQ.html
It reminds of some hard wingchun stylist, like Hard Bridge Wingchun and some masters who mix Choy Lay Fut/Hung Kuen into wingchun
And I believe they took part in 太平天囯
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

And how does wingchun handle Hard force?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsgRXduHjYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5uTr5fA1Lw

But wingchun has a internal style, taught by Yik Kam, Leung Bik, others being a more feminine style. Thats where the jewels of wingchun are.
Years ago, a senior said to me Wingchun is a internal style and his lineage is not Iron Fist of Chu Chong Man, or Swallow Weight kung lik kind of energy.
After so many years, I have just a little insight into what he meant.

Thank you, very interesting videos and I have seen some of them. I believe that the fact is that no one here has practiced all the different Wing Chun lineages nor have they practiced all of the Five Ancestor Fist lineages. So it would be difficult ot generalise.

The lineage of Wing Chun that I practise acknowledges many internal principles that include, softness, listening, floating, accepting force etc. Honestly speaking many WC practioners that I have met are not even aware of the internal side of Wing Chun. They practice this art exteranally and as a result they miss out on its main advantage, which are the internal elements.

It is good that there are people such as yourself and Hendrik that are making references to this aspect of not just Wing Chun but kung fu in general. When I fist joinned this forum and talked about the internals I was kind of ridiculed by some of the modern "kung fu gods" (read, glorified kickboxers) and even some who didn't even practice kung fu. So no matter how the subject of internals is discussed it will be benefitial to those who are not aware of its existance in kung fu.

I like to add that perhaps shaolinfist's experience was limited to externally practised Wing Chun (just like 95% of people out there) and as a result he can see the obvious weaknesses when he compares it to internally practiced 5 Ancestor Fist specially when demonstrated by someone with Sifu Yap Leong's unquestionable caliber.

It should be becoming obvious for those people who were not aware the reason why many old masters regarded the internals as the higher levels of kung fu which some of them would keep under their hats and not teach it to everyone.:)

[Hardwork108]

i was drawn to this friutless dialogue, because of the Sifu Yap Leong Video as i have an interest in 5a, All of the above statements were originally made by wing chun practioners, who were defending there point of view when challenged

I will say this. People who practise wing chun purely as an external martial art have no grounds to complain about what you have said. Wing Chun practiced externally is not really kung fu. That is my honest opinion. The practice of any kung fu style should incorporate the internals otherwise there is no balance nor essence.


I said pound for pound 5a is superior,

You are right when comparing it with 95% percent of Wing Chun out there. Lets just say classify the other 5% as unknown, for the sake of science.;)



Sifu Leongs reputation is formidable
all who have played with him know that especially the countless wing chun sifu
who were too shamed to acknowledge there defeats.

I have heard about those.;) I heard he really embarassed some karate dan grades as well, is that true?



by hollow i mean the wing chun in my experience from playing and observing, has been one dimensional not "live" the blocking was dead, no absorbing or listening.
i came onto the forum to challenge perceptions of the video on u tube. In which you will find innane comments by wing chun practioners saying bong sau is for novices, advanced wing chun has no shapes.
In principle advanced kung fu doesnt have any shapes because the masters have gone beyong being readable.

If you were referring to my comment, then that is exactly what I meant as that fact holds true for high level Wing Chun as well.


but like every religion questions need to be asked, why is it that alot of wing chun fighters cross train ? whats wrong with
their kung fu ?

You know, one of the main points that I have made about people crosstraining needlessly has been to find their answers in their kung fu and if their school does not provide it then they should look elsewhere in an kung fu school with an authentic kung fu sifu, instead of running to the local BJJ or Thai Boxing gym.

You should see the kind of treatment I am getting for that elsewhere in this forum and for a long time I might add. So don't you dare go against the MMA and "Cross training is king" as you are going to offend a lot of people who make their bread and butter from the "modern" training concept of mixing MA, LOL,lol,lol.


the main reason wing chun became popular was because of the bruce lee films in the 70s/80s more inclined to thank golden harvest, for the boom in the 70s.

It is ironic that wing chun became popular because of someone who walked away from it.:confused:

That would make a good thread subject.:D

I am glad that you are posting. You are one of the minority here who train kung fu under a proper sifu. Of course that doesn't mean that others who interact with you will not sometimes disagree but then that is what we are here for and that is to discuss and hopefully get enlightened about this great art, no matter what style we practice.:)

[Shadow_warrior8]

Its silly to post so much on a Sifu that reputation you only heard. Yes I agree it is fruitless for you to continue this thread. What are you defending? Sifu Yap reputation? You are not his student, he doesnt need your defending, and one can see he is a skilled master. Wuzu reputation? Wuzu doesnt need defending, it stands as a formidable MA. So what? Your point that wingchun is inferior to 五祖拳, Wuzu Quan, Ngor Chor Kun, Ngo Chor Kun or Five Ancestors Fist?

HW108, Shaolin Fist
My belief is Wingchun learnt just for self defence is formidable already, as master wong, bruce lee, leung ting, has proven all over the world.
My experience- My Wuzu brother who switched over later, had multiple nice exchanges, we agreed it was a draw. I would honestly say, it wasnt easy, because it was my first encounter with "Hard" hands, strong "Hard" structure. You can see what I mean from the Wuzu video. I was faster, but he was hard to larp, pak. And his close range punching could really floor you. My cultivation back then was not internal per se. Even if I lost, it was no big deal, he had 30 years of experience, but he graciously said it was a draw. I did get alot of ***** slaps in due to speed but without internal understanding it would have been hard to hurt him because of Wuzu Iron body conditioning Tiet Bo San. Later, I was taught the internal aspects of wingchun power, and I learnt chain punching isnt just flicking your hands rapidly into the air, connection of the whole body, rooting, power from ground up. Wingchun looks soft, but its subtle and penetrating and at times projecting, not like hard lik or hard jing.
I might have done some damage if I did a straight blast with my body behind the strikes attacking his face, but I wasnt there to do him in, as he wasnt as well, we are kungfu brothers.

What is the difference between white crane and Wuzu, San Chien? Why does Wingchun not have San Chien(if it descended from White Crane)? Or Santi from Hsing I? Now I know, Wingchun is not taiji, not Wuzu 5 parts power, not Choy Lay Fut, no Hung Kuen. Why dont we take silk reeling from taiji or add Pakua stepping to Chum Kil? It has its only internal mechanics and described in details by some Seniors on this forum for years.

I have never heard any of your claims on advanced wingchun or bong sao.

You can tell me to my face that 5 a is crap, thats ok, but if we touch hands and you loose would you say your wing chun is inferior? the proof is in the pudding.
If I lose when we touch hands, I AM INFERIOR, not Wingchun. I just have to train harder, then I will visit you again for another exchange. And if I beat you then, is Wingchun now proven superior? TCMA is about 以武为友, self cultivation, making friends through the martial way, not stylist, styles and who is better. You dont have a clue about TCMA culture and have shallow views.

What security or criticism? Of course wingchun can take it, it is not invincible bullet blocking stuff. But it must be said by one who can qualify his answer with experience. You havent done that. You still havent said how long you trained in wingchun or which Sifu. I dont think its wingchun that has security issues. When you "challenge perceptions of the video on u tube", you must show why? show experience? Posting a master you idol, doesnt count as experience. You can tell us your real upfront experience or talk about Wuzu Internal Mechanics versus Wingchun Internal mechancis, thats good enough.

you wont asked me to get the list, out of respect for the tcma you will want to give face
You are talking nonsense here. What reference do you have of countless Sifus who have lost to Sifu Yap? From Youtube as well? You berate wingchun to boost Wuzu. You put down Wuzu other lineages to boost your admiration for Sifu Yap, whom you saw on youtube. And you talk about respect for TCMA?

Why many masters cross train? Who? Please state these masters names. How many are Yip Man? Or Bruce Lee? Or Wong Shun Leung? And here's my answer, most are not original students of Yip Man or didnt spend enough time in Wingchun. Did you hear any students of Yip Man go learn Shui Chiao? Or Muay Thai? Or Boxing? Why did Wong Shun Leung turn to Wingchun over boxing? Why did Leung Sheung give up Dragon Boxing?

As you can see in Master Samuel Kwok videos, wingchun is very alive. Its very attentive in listening.

the main reason wing chun became popular was because of the bruce lee films in the 70s/80s more inclined to thank golden harvest, for the boom in the 70s.
The challenges of Yip man, and his students were hongkong entertainment tonight even before Bruce Lee learnt wingchun or the movies. He was even famous in guangzhou known as the 3 hero with Master Yuen and Master Yiu.
Bruce Lee died in 1973, his films were becoming famous in the late 60s/70s and before that he was becoming famous in Hollywood. In hongkong, Master Wong, Master Cheung etc....went about challenge matches all those years. Wingchun didnt stop in hongkong just because Bruce Lee went to the states
Seriously, you dont show you know much about wingchun, wingchun history or the physical mechanics- Then again I could be wrong, and I would stand corrected(please feel free to do so). Thats why and I "Speculate" you gave up. And that you can use things like bong sao as a reference point, advance wingchun etc......shows you dont understand the subject

You cant go to a boxing site, muay thai site or taiji site and say their art is crap, and expect not to be challenged on your points. You were not sharing an actual experience, you were putting down other arts to boost your view. My Wuzu brother still does wingchun and wuzu. He doesnt talk down about either art- It was his personal choice and I will ask him which lineage in Malaysia he comes from. And if its Chee Kim Thong, it doesnt mean anything about Wuzu and its reputation as a fighting art.
You were once part of the wingchun family too, just because you found another art you like doesnt mean you can be nasty about your previous. Its just common sense, grace and respect to your previous Sifu.

If you like Wuzu, all the power to you, but dont put down Wingchun. It has stood for years and many heros have spend decades spreading the art, thats why it is what it is today, one of the most popular TCMA in the world.

[Shaolin Fist]

In fairness the reason why so many kung fu practioners lack internal training is in part because their teachers are unwilling to share such information. Its what sets them apart and for most the rice bowl is more important.

In turn those who have loyally and patiently waited (or paid ) for such imformation, themselves most probably would repeat the same cycle.

From what i have seen there are some such as Chu Shong Tin who has decided to break with old kung fu tradition and has shown and explained to a fair degree some of the internals on his You Tube clips.

[Shadow_warrior8]

In fairness the reason why so many kung fu practioners lack internal training is in part because their teachers are unwilling to share such information. Its what sets them apart and for most the rice bowl is more important.

In turn those who have loyally and patiently waited (or paid ) for such imformation, themselves most probably would repeat the same cycle.

From what i have seen there are some such as Chu Shong Tin who has decided to break with old kung fu tradition and has shown and explained to a fair degree some of the internals on his You Tube clips.

Personally I dont think it was the Sifu all the time
Alot of people wanted to earn money quickly, learn, get a black belt, open a school, franchise- its western culture(and its good for the business minded)
TCMA, cant be seen through those eyes. Its not secret per se, but it requires faith, sincerity, humility and respect for the sifu, culture, the ancestors and the way.

[Shaolin Fist]

Larp sao and pak sao on them, feels like hitting a brick wall.
So if we chi sao and think use more strength-lik, you will be defeated.
So what do we do?
Here, in the words of the Wuzu Master/brother, these videos show why he switched to wingchun.


The feeling of 'hitting a brick wall' is due to the method of energetics 5 A uses. Whereas VT might choose to absorb and flow around or deflect they instead prefer to re-direct (empty) the force or pressure full on. As a result the intent through the arms have to be non linear to create that 'brick wall feeling'.

5 A prefers to 'turn on' forward intent i.e forward energy to a high intensity (which IMO if overdone or balanced incorrectly has the effect of slowing your reflex speed) and the rest downward and side intent. Hence the feeling of 'Heavy hands' in the 5 A system. This type of bridge energy in turn dictates the arm bridging postures i.e palms facing forward or down with heavy relience on elbow rooting (sinking).

Before any 5 A practitioners jumps on this thread to say that i'm inaccurate, i would like to say that i have intentionally only glossed over the internal mechanics to make it easily understood by everyone.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The feeling of 'hitting a brick wall' is due to the method of energetics 5 A uses. Whereas VT might choose to absorb and flow around or deflect they instead prefer to re-direct (empty) the force or pressure full on. As a result the intent through the arms have to be non linear to create that 'brick wall feeling'.

5 A prefers to 'turn on' forward intent i.e forward energy to a high intensity (which IMO if overdone or balanced incorrectly has the effect of slowing your reflex speed) and the rest downward and side intent. Hence the feeling of 'Heavy hands' in the 5 A system. This type of bridge energy in turn dictates the arm bridging postures i.e palms facing forward or down with heavy relience on elbow rooting (sinking).

Before any 5 A practitioners jumps on this thread to say that i'm inaccurate, i would like to say that i have intentionally only glossed over the internal mechanics to make it easily understood by everyone.

Thats interesting, from my research and exchange this sinking force is a key, together with 5 parts power is the essense of Wuzu.

I tried to larp sao the hard arms, but he was very rooted, I tried to cut with my elbows in interception chong choi, his bridge took out alot of my power.
I had to use lau sao, huen sao, to go around counter alot of the close range fighting. Lat Sao also had good results.
What other ways do you think are good for handling a fair exchange with Wuzu?

Very similar to what Samuel Kwok showed in his demo with the world Strongest Man.

[Shaolin Fist]

Thats interesting, from my research and exchange this sinking force is a key, together with 5 parts power is the essense of Wuzu.

I tried to larp sao the hard arms, but he was very rooted, I tried to cut with my elbows in interception chong choi, his bridge took out alot of my power.
I had to use lau sao, huen sao, to go around counter alot of the close range fighting. Lat Sao also had good results.
What other ways do you think are good for handling a fair exchange with Wuzu?

Very similar to what Samuel Kwok showed in his demo with the world Strongest Man.

The reason why you would struggle to larp is because 5a have their bridge energy rooted around the elbows, so it would be like trying to lift a broom stick with a weight attached to the end of it .

As you suggested and i totally agree huen sau and lut sau would be more effective than trying to overcome their power, afterall why play the same game ! If they go full out with their heavy power then they will have to forsake a certain amount of reaction speed on their bridge, but off course this is down to skill levels and the individual.

From my experience its better to play them very tight as their main listening points is their hands and not their wrists so to avoid the Chin Na its better to be engaged as far down their bridge as they will allow. This in turn will take away some of that control and by moving closer into their centre should make life a little more difficult for them.

But ultumately its the speed at which you can change bridge positions without any static footwork (root) as 5 A are experts in the uprooting (floating) department.

Though both styles can exchange hands with each either it should be remembered that chi sau is only a part of the overall training and isolating and comparing them like this is not necessarily conclusive on the overall effectiveness of either system.

[CFT]

The reason why you would struggle to larp is because 5a have their bridge energy rooted around the elbows, so it would be like trying to lift a broom stick with a weight attached to the end of it.I know some Wing Chun practitioners are a bit "wrist-y" but doesn't Wing Chun have focus at the elbow also (jaang daai lik)?

[shaolinfist]

I will say this. People who practise wing chun purely as an external martial art have no grounds to complain about what you have said. Wing Chun practiced externally is not really kung fu. That is my honest opinion. The practice of any kung fu style should incorporate the internals otherwise there is no balance nor essence.



You are right when comparing it with 95% percent of Wing Chun out there. Lets just say classify the other 5% as unknown, for the sake of science.;)




I have heard about those.;) I heard he really embarassed some karate dan grades as well, is that true?

Not just one, but a few top ranking karate guys, especially those from Goju Ryu who wanted to do 'kakie' with him. some interesting reference to Sifu Leong can be found here on the legendary Steve Morris website:- http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07Scorpionnoteslinks.htm





If you were referring to my comment, then that is exactly what I meant as that fact holds true for high level Wing Chun as well.



You know, one of the main points that I have made about people crosstraining needlessly has been to find their answers in their kung fu and if their school does not provide it then they should look elsewhere in an kung fu school with an authentic kung fu sifu, instead of running to the local BJJ or Thai Boxing gym.

You should see the kind of treatment I am getting for that elsewhere in this forum and for a long time I might add. So don't you dare go against the MMA and "Cross training is king" as you are going to offend a lot of people who make their bread and butter from the "modern" training concept of mixing MA, LOL,lol,lol.

refreshing to hear someone with a sense of humour, careful not to dare me ! lol



It is ironic that wing chun became popular because of someone who walked away from it.:confused:

That would make a good thread subject.:D

I am glad that you are posting. You are one of the minority here who train kung fu under a proper sifu. Of course that doesn't mean that others who interact with you will not sometimes disagree but then that is what we are here for and that is to discuss and hopefully get enlightened about this great art, no matter what style we practice.:)
thats right

[shaolinfist]

Hardwork108

This is true of alot of chinese arts e.g taiji, wingchun(see a description by Jim when he met Senior Hendrik)- Its alot similar to what was described of Sifu Leung. This is true of my experience with my internal arts sigung.

I study Hsing I, bagua, yiquan, taiji, qigong in our lineage together with internal wingchun.
Its all very deep. I still have a long way to go to manifest what the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit(Senior Hendrik lineage) describes.

To root a force, you have to be soft, and it goes into the ground. If you are hard- it doesnt help because you are running on lik- strength energy.


so you study 4 other arts alongside your wing chun, that all happen to be internal, i see.

[shaolinfist]

Ok i'll speak in your language so we cross wires.............

I think 5 Ancestors is definately 'Inferior' to Wing Chun because 10 years ago i got truly done over by a 30 plus years experienced Wing Chun master who i thought was going to be a pushover. As i was armed with some of what i thought was Superior 5 Ancestor chi sau bullets i went in with all guns blazing.
But alas as the stories went, i lost my chi sau chalengne :(

Based on that i can only conclude that Wing Chun is a Superior System to 5 Ancestors.

Oh dont get me wrong, let me give 'credit' to 5-Ancestors as they do have a 'few good points' :rolleyes:

Ok after i have finish my popcorn i gonna train my Superior Wing Chun moves..........

you talk rubbish so dont bother

[shaolinfist]

Its silly to post so much on a Sifu that reputation you only heard. Yes I agree it is fruitless for you to continue this thread. What are you defending? Sifu Yap reputation? You are not his student, he doesnt need your defending, and one can see he is a skilled master. Wuzu reputation? Wuzu doesnt need defending, it stands as a formidable MA. So what? Your point that wingchun is inferior to 五祖拳, Wuzu Quan, Ngor Chor Kun, Ngo Chor Kun or Five Ancestors Fist?

HW108, Shaolin Fist
My belief is Wingchun learnt just for self defence is formidable already, as master wong, bruce lee, leung ting, has proven all over the world.
My experience- My Wuzu brother who switched over later, had multiple nice exchanges, we agreed it was a draw. I would honestly say, it wasnt easy, because it was my first encounter with "Hard" hands, strong "Hard" structure. You can see what I mean from the Wuzu video. I was faster, but he was hard to larp, pak. And his close range punching could really floor you. My cultivation back then was not internal per se. Even if I lost, it was no big deal, he had 30 years of experience, but he graciously said it was a draw. I did get alot of ***** slaps in due to speed but without internal understanding it would have been hard to hurt him because of Wuzu Iron body conditioning Tiet Bo San. Later, I was taught the internal aspects of wingchun power, and I learnt chain punching isnt just flicking your hands rapidly into the air, connection of the whole body, rooting, power from ground up. Wingchun looks soft, but its subtle and penetrating and at times projecting, not like hard lik or hard jing.
I might have done some damage if I did a straight blast with my body behind the strikes attacking his face, but I wasnt there to do him in, as he wasnt as well, we are kungfu brothers.

What is the difference between white crane and Wuzu, San Chien? Why does Wingchun not have San Chien(if it descended from White Crane)? Or Santi from Hsing I? Now I know, Wingchun is not taiji, not Wuzu 5 parts power, not Choy Lay Fut, no Hung Kuen. Why dont we take silk reeling from taiji or add Pakua stepping to Chum Kil? It has its only internal mechanics and described in details by some Seniors on this forum for years.

I have never heard any of your claims on advanced wingchun or bong sao.

You can tell me to my face that 5 a is crap, thats ok, but if we touch hands and you loose would you say your wing chun is inferior? the proof is in the pudding.
If I lose when we touch hands, I AM INFERIOR, not Wingchun. I just have to train harder, then I will visit you again for another exchange. And if I beat you then, is Wingchun now proven superior? TCMA is about 以武为友, self cultivation, making friends through the martial way, not stylist, styles and who is better. You dont have a clue about TCMA culture and have shallow views.

What security or criticism? Of course wingchun can take it, it is not invincible bullet blocking stuff. But it must be said by one who can qualify his answer with experience. You havent done that. You still havent said how long you trained in wingchun or which Sifu. I dont think its wingchun that has security issues. When you "challenge perceptions of the video on u tube", you must show why? show experience? Posting a master you idol, doesnt count as experience. You can tell us your real upfront experience or talk about Wuzu Internal Mechanics versus Wingchun Internal mechancis, thats good enough.

you wont asked me to get the list, out of respect for the tcma you will want to give face
You are talking nonsense here. What reference do you have of countless Sifus who have lost to Sifu Yap? From Youtube as well? You berate wingchun to boost Wuzu. You put down Wuzu other lineages to boost your admiration for Sifu Yap, whom you saw on youtube. And you talk about respect for TCMA?

Why many masters cross train? Who? Please state these masters names. How many are Yip Man? Or Bruce Lee? Or Wong Shun Leung? And here's my answer, most are not original students of Yip Man or didnt spend enough time in Wingchun. Did you hear any students of Yip Man go learn Shui Chiao? Or Muay Thai? Or Boxing? Why did Wong Shun Leung turn to Wingchun over boxing? Why did Leung Sheung give up Dragon Boxing?

As you can see in Master Samuel Kwok videos, wingchun is very alive. Its very attentive in listening.

the main reason wing chun became popular was because of the bruce lee films in the 70s/80s more inclined to thank golden harvest, for the boom in the 70s.
The challenges of Yip man, and his students were hongkong entertainment tonight even before Bruce Lee learnt wingchun or the movies. He was even famous in guangzhou known as the 3 hero with Master Yuen and Master Yiu.
Bruce Lee died in 1973, his films were becoming famous in the late 60s/70s and before that he was becoming famous in Hollywood. In hongkong, Master Wong, Master Cheung etc....went about challenge matches all those years. Wingchun didnt stop in hongkong just because Bruce Lee went to the states
Seriously, you dont show you know much about wingchun, wingchun history or the physical mechanics- Then again I could be wrong, and I would stand corrected(please feel free to do so). Thats why and I "Speculate" you gave up. And that you can use things like bong sao as a reference point, advance wingchun etc......shows you dont understand the subject

You cant go to a boxing site, muay thai site or taiji site and say their art is crap, and expect not to be challenged on your points. You were not sharing an actual experience, you were putting down other arts to boost your view. My Wuzu brother still does wingchun and wuzu. He doesnt talk down about either art- It was his personal choice and I will ask him which lineage in Malaysia he comes from. And if its Chee Kim Thong, it doesnt mean anything about Wuzu and its reputation as a fighting art.
You were once part of the wingchun family too, just because you found another art you like doesnt mean you can be nasty about your previous. Its just common sense, grace and respect to your previous Sifu.

If you like Wuzu, all the power to you, but dont put down Wingchun. It has stood for years and many heros have spend decades spreading the art, thats why it is what it is today, one of the most popular TCMA in the world.

you say

I would honestly say, it wasnt easy, because it was my first encounter with "Hard" hands, strong "Hard" structure. You can see what I mean from the Wuzu video. I was faster, but he was hard to larp, pak. And his close range punching could really floor you.

you are correct, but you were still encountering a 5A a 'hard guy' you would have problems with someone who has both hard & soft. If that guy had both he would not have to crossover to WC in Singapore. By the way, some practitioners of hard style 5A from Singapore have crossed over to the Chee Kim Thong 5A.

What reference do you have of countless Sifus who have lost to Sifu Yap?
That is for you to find out or ask him, unless you think I am telling a lie.

As you can see in Master Samuel Kwok videos, wingchun is very alive. Its very attentive in listening.

That is your opinion. I have noticed flaws, which you should have spotted if you are that experienced.


You still havent said how long you trained in wingchun or which Sifu.

My WC master was and is still very famous in Europe and he trained under the late Yip Man. Is that good enough for you?

[Hardwork108]

Its silly to post so much on a Sifu that reputation you only heard. Yes I agree it is fruitless for you to continue this thread. What are you defending? Sifu Yap reputation? You are not his student, he doesnt need your defending, and one can see he is a skilled master. Wuzu reputation? Wuzu doesnt need defending, it stands as a formidable MA. So what? Your point that wingchun is inferior to 五祖拳, Wuzu Quan, Ngor Chor Kun, Ngo Chor Kun or Five Ancestors Fist?

HW108, Shaolin Fist
My belief is Wingchun learnt just for self defence is formidable already, as master wong, bruce lee, leung ting, has proven all over the world.
My experience- My Wuzu brother who switched over later, had multiple nice exchanges, we agreed it was a draw. I would honestly say, it wasnt easy, because it was my first encounter with "Hard" hands, strong "Hard" structure. You can see what I mean from the Wuzu video. I was faster, but he was hard to larp, pak. And his close range punching could really floor you. My cultivation back then was not internal per se. Even if I lost, it was no big deal, he had 30 years of experience, but he graciously said it was a draw. I did get alot of ***** slaps in due to speed but without internal understanding it would have been hard to hurt him because of Wuzu Iron body conditioning Tiet Bo San. Later, I was taught the internal aspects of wingchun power, and I learnt chain punching isnt just flicking your hands rapidly into the air, connection of the whole body, rooting, power from ground up. Wingchun looks soft, but its subtle and penetrating and at times projecting, not like hard lik or hard jing.
I might have done some damage if I did a straight blast with my body behind the strikes attacking his face, but I wasnt there to do him in, as he wasnt as well, we are kungfu brothers.

What is the difference between white crane and Wuzu, San Chien? Why does Wingchun not have San Chien(if it descended from White Crane)? Or Santi from Hsing I? Now I know, Wingchun is not taiji, not Wuzu 5 parts power, not Choy Lay Fut, no Hung Kuen. Why dont we take silk reeling from taiji or add Pakua stepping to Chum Kil? It has its only internal mechanics and described in details by some Seniors on this forum for years.

I have never heard any of your claims on advanced wingchun or bong sao.

You can tell me to my face that 5 a is crap, thats ok, but if we touch hands and you loose would you say your wing chun is inferior? the proof is in the pudding.
If I lose when we touch hands, I AM INFERIOR, not Wingchun. I just have to train harder, then I will visit you again for another exchange. And if I beat you then, is Wingchun now proven superior? TCMA is about 以武为友, self cultivation, making friends through the martial way, not stylist, styles and who is better. You dont have a clue about TCMA culture and have shallow views.

What security or criticism? Of course wingchun can take it, it is not invincible bullet blocking stuff. But it must be said by one who can qualify his answer with experience. You havent done that. You still havent said how long you trained in wingchun or which Sifu. I dont think its wingchun that has security issues. When you "challenge perceptions of the video on u tube", you must show why? show experience? Posting a master you idol, doesnt count as experience. You can tell us your real upfront experience or talk about Wuzu Internal Mechanics versus Wingchun Internal mechancis, thats good enough.

you wont asked me to get the list, out of respect for the tcma you will want to give face
You are talking nonsense here. What reference do you have of countless Sifus who have lost to Sifu Yap? From Youtube as well? You berate wingchun to boost Wuzu. You put down Wuzu other lineages to boost your admiration for Sifu Yap, whom you saw on youtube. And you talk about respect for TCMA?

Why many masters cross train? Who? Please state these masters names. How many are Yip Man? Or Bruce Lee? Or Wong Shun Leung? And here's my answer, most are not original students of Yip Man or didnt spend enough time in Wingchun. Did you hear any students of Yip Man go learn Shui Chiao? Or Muay Thai? Or Boxing? Why did Wong Shun Leung turn to Wingchun over boxing? Why did Leung Sheung give up Dragon Boxing?

As you can see in Master Samuel Kwok videos, wingchun is very alive. Its very attentive in listening.

the main reason wing chun became popular was because of the bruce lee films in the 70s/80s more inclined to thank golden harvest, for the boom in the 70s.
The challenges of Yip man, and his students were hongkong entertainment tonight even before Bruce Lee learnt wingchun or the movies. He was even famous in guangzhou known as the 3 hero with Master Yuen and Master Yiu.
Bruce Lee died in 1973, his films were becoming famous in the late 60s/70s and before that he was becoming famous in Hollywood. In hongkong, Master Wong, Master Cheung etc....went about challenge matches all those years. Wingchun didnt stop in hongkong just because Bruce Lee went to the states
Seriously, you dont show you know much about wingchun, wingchun history or the physical mechanics- Then again I could be wrong, and I would stand corrected(please feel free to do so). Thats why and I "Speculate" you gave up. And that you can use things like bong sao as a reference point, advance wingchun etc......shows you dont understand the subject

You cant go to a boxing site, muay thai site or taiji site and say their art is crap, and expect not to be challenged on your points. You were not sharing an actual experience, you were putting down other arts to boost your view. My Wuzu brother still does wingchun and wuzu. He doesnt talk down about either art- It was his personal choice and I will ask him which lineage in Malaysia he comes from. And if its Chee Kim Thong, it doesnt mean anything about Wuzu and its reputation as a fighting art.
You were once part of the wingchun family too, just because you found another art you like doesnt mean you can be nasty about your previous. Its just common sense, grace and respect to your previous Sifu.

If you like Wuzu, all the power to you, but dont put down Wingchun. It has stood for years and many heros have spend decades spreading the art, thats why it is what it is today, one of the most popular TCMA in the world.

I believe that when shaolinfist posts his opinions he is referring to his experience of Wing Chun and how most Wing Chun is trained in the West (mainly externally and incompletely) to sifu Yap Leong's (Chee Kim Thong's) lineage of Five Ancestor Fist which has deep internal concepts and training. I don't believe that he is here to make trouble or to insult people.

I believe that he has more in common with those of us who also train Wing Chun internally than he has with those who train 5 Ancestor kung fu only externally. We should welcome him here and embrace his opinions and discuss the internals.

The fact is this forum is full of "kung fu-ists" and self proclaimed "sifus" who do not even know of the existance of the internals. So we should embrace kung fu brothers who have an understanding of this fundemental element of authentic kung fu training.:)

[Yoshiyahu]

What are the internals of Wing Chun?

Please share how you practice WC both Internally and Externally.



I believe that when shaolinfist posts his opinions he is referring to his experience of Wing Chun and how most Wing Chun is trained in the West (mainly externally and incompletely) to sifu Yap Leong's (Chee Kim Thong's) lineage of Five Ancestor Fist which has deep internal concepts and training. I don't believe that he is here to make trouble or to insult people.

I believe that he has more in common with those of us who also train Wing Chun internally than he has with those who train 5 Ancestor kung fu only externally. We should welcome him here and embrace his opinions and discuss the internals.

The fact is this forum is full of "kung fu-ists" and self proclaimed "sifus" who do not even know of the existance of the internals. So we should embrace kung fu brothers who have an understanding of this fundemental element of authentic kung fu training.:)

[Shaolin Fist]

you talk rubbish so dont bother

So now you know how you sound like to us ! So i take it you dont like it when i speak the same language :rolleyes:


Now back up your claims with technical explaination or better still finish off or elaborate on my technical explainations. However i if you cant then you are clearly too inexperienced and in no position to be making such ridiculous and insulting statements.

[Shadow_warrior8]

you say

you are correct, but you were still encountering a 5A a 'hard guy' you would have problems with someone who has both hard & soft. If that guy had both he would not have to crossover to WC in Singapore. By the way, some practitioners of hard style 5A from Singapore have crossed over to the Chee Kim Thong 5A.

That is for you to find out or ask him, unless you think I am telling a lie.

That is your opinion. I have noticed flaws, which you should have spotted if you are that experienced.

My WC master was and is still very famous in Europe and he trained under the late Yip Man. Is that good enough for you?

Singapore 5A crossed over to Chee Kim Thong? Wuzu to Wuzu, change of lineage, its personal perference- whats the relationship to wingchun? You dont have to prove to anyone you know wuzu stories and tales, just that you have been trained and understand wingchun mechanics since you mock it.
You know the Wuzu brother over 60 years old, with 30+ years experience? You know he doesnt have hard and soft?
You even talk bad about Wuzu fellow practitioners who have been training probably longer than you? Hmmm...not admirable behaviour.

So here I ask, what is hard? What is soft? Root? Structure? How does one hold the spine, kua, shoulder nest in Hard? How does one hold these things in soft? Tension? With so much hard kung lik training, iron stones, iron body in Wuzu? How does one train Soft?

I havent seen any "truths" besides claims and more claims.

You havent answered which of Yip man's students cross train because wingchun is hallow?

Please pin point the flaws.
Master Samuel Kwok has learnt under the sons of Yip Man for decades. In the demo he chi sao with the world's strongest man.
Please Show us your great experience and knowledge.

See the previous posts we talk techniques, we talk mechanics, we talk references.
Use wingchun terms, internal terms, wuzu terms, lets have a serious discussion or go to a Wuzu site to discuss your admiration issues.

Its good to take your advice, dont waste more bandwidth on your fruitless post. Your understanding of both arts and TCMA is revealed.

[Shadow_warrior8]

I believe that when shaolinfist posts his opinions he is referring to his experience of Wing Chun and how most Wing Chun is trained in the West (mainly externally and incompletely) to sifu Yap Leong's (Chee Kim Thong's) lineage of Five Ancestor Fist which has deep internal concepts and training. I don't believe that he is here to make trouble or to insult people.

I believe that he has more in common with those of us who also train Wing Chun internally than he has with those who train 5 Ancestor kung fu only externally. We should welcome him here and embrace his opinions and discuss the internals.

The fact is this forum is full of "kung fu-ists" and self proclaimed "sifus" who do not even know of the existance of the internals. So we should embrace kung fu brothers who have an understanding of this fundemental element of authentic kung fu training.:)

C'mon mate, he cant even hold a technical discussion about Wuzu or talk about wingchun he learnt.

You think he's actually sharing about authentic kungfu training? Where's the technical stuff? he is only slamming wingchun as hallow but not able to produce evidence of it.

Shaolin Fist talks his wuzu language and he cant back it up.

Sifu Yap looks like a skilled master, but he didnt teach this guy posting here. So he is just saying he idolizes him, thats all. And he didnt learn enough wingchun to make it work for him.

So whats next? A taiji guy slamming wingchun? More muay thai guys slamming wingchun? BJJ? Boxing? Hsing I? Bagua? On a wingchun forum? This people dont even know the basics of TCMA culture- self cultivation, thats why china has so many styles, lineages and they all co-exist in peace.

If he can discuss training, fighting strategies of wuzu or wingchun we'd be getting somewhere. But all just silly slams of wingchun, and his admiration for Sifu Yap, talk about tao, pride etc..... He's wasting everyone's time.

[Shaolin Fist]

C'mon mate, he cant even hold a technical discussion about Wuzu or talk about wingchun he learnt.

You think he's actually sharing about authentic kungfu training? Where's the technical stuff? he is only slamming wingchun as hallow but not able to produce evidence of it.

Shaolin Fist talks his wuzu language and he cant back it up.

Sifu Yap looks like a skilled master, but he didnt teach this guy posting here. So he is just saying he idolizes him, thats all. And he didnt learn enough wingchun to make it work for him.

So whats next? A taiji guy slamming wingchun? More muay thai guys slamming wingchun? BJJ? Boxing? Hsing I? Bagua? On a wingchun forum? This people dont even know the basics of TCMA culture- self cultivation, thats why china has so many styles, lineages and they all co-exist in peace.

If he can discuss training, fighting strategies of wuzu or wingchun we'd be getting somewhere. But all just silly slams of wingchun, and his admiration for Sifu Yap, talk about tao, pride etc..... He's wasting everyone's time.

Well i guess that just about sums it up ...........there's not a lot more i can add except if shaolinfist was truly sincere about discussing and comparing the two systems (which clearly is not the case) then you dont make an opening statement insulting the style which this part of the forum represents.

If he thinks Wing Chun is Hollow, so what ? he has a right to an opinion but dont expect us to take him seriously as he has no technical insight to back up his claims other than his own inadequate failings.

[Shaolin Fist]

I know some Wing Chun practitioners are a bit "wrist-y" but doesn't Wing Chun have focus at the elbow also (jaang daai lik)?

Very true as you say Wing Chun should ;)

Ok let me approach it different way. In the vid YL is clearly not forcing through a lot of heavy forward energy through his bridge (.ie the brick wall effect) nor does he have to as the other guy is his student and really playing his game.

Watch YL right hand and notice the 5A bong never allows the wrist to drop below the elbows as this would violate the its rooting function. YL bong only needs to rise to maintain structure. In turn his students fok will always be compromised as YL bong has taken him wide. Sure the guy could huen back to the inside (or pak) but with YL level of sensitivity.......is student would find it difficult !

Chu Shong Tin demostrates this same elbow principle pretty well in one of his You Tube clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWggfQrN-lQ but that is where the similarities end because the wrist energy is different.

The essence of the 5A can be seen in the positioning and alignment of the elbows. To most who havent witnessed 5 A it wont be immediately obvious .......maybe 'shaolinfist' would like to elaborate further for me ?

This positioning and use of the elbows is technically (plus the way they deliver their gung lik) one of the major differences in the 2 systems and this difference in bridging structures gives rise to different properties...... different tool doing the same job !

[shaolinfist]

C'mon mate, he cant even hold a technical discussion about Wuzu or talk about wingchun he learnt.

You think he's actually sharing about authentic kungfu training? Where's the technical stuff? he is only slamming wingchun as hallow but not able to produce evidence of it.

Shaolin Fist talks his wuzu language and he cant back it up.

Sifu Yap looks like a skilled master, but he didnt teach this guy posting here. So he is just saying he idolizes him, thats all. And he didnt learn enough wingchun to make it work for him.

So whats next? A taiji guy slamming wingchun? More muay thai guys slamming wingchun? BJJ? Boxing? Hsing I? Bagua? On a wingchun forum? This people dont even know the basics of TCMA culture- self cultivation, thats why china has so many styles, lineages and they all co-exist in peace.

If he can discuss training, fighting strategies of wuzu or wingchun we'd be getting somewhere. But all just silly slams of wingchun, and his admiration for Sifu Yap, talk about tao, pride etc..... He's wasting everyone's time.


The five ancestors i am interested in is the chee kim thong lineage, that implements the float, swallow sink vomit principles. using the breath and yi (mind)
to inform the techniques. when i refer to my wing chun being hollow i refer to my experience of it which was stick to hit, explosive speed, but shooting blanks, just physical ! no inclusion of chi or mind. when i see sifu kwoks chi sao i see a practictioner retreating not manipulating the opponents attacks and leaking through, nor have i seen or felt many wing chun practioners cultivate heavy hands

you talk about me being idolising sifu yap leong, you are blinded by your own idolising, you can see the tricks used in some of the videos you posted. they are mostly set ups, always retreating,
Any quality wuzu player would never retreat,
the concept is to forge forward, as in san chien (three Battles). I am interested in
finding a good wuzu teacher,

i dropped my wing chun, bloody useless.

good luck to you all with your training hope you enjoy your perpetual springtime !

[Hardwork108]

The five ancestors i am interested in is the chee kim thong lineage, that implements the float, swallow sink vomit principles.

I have read about him, he was the real deal and was considered a living treasure by the Chinese government (if I remember my readings correctly).

As I mentioned before it is about how a kung fu style is trained and you are right in implying that if one compares chee kim thong's lineage of Five Ancestor Fist to most Wing Chun that is trained here in the West, then there is no contest. I said before that it seems that most Wing Chun is trained externally.

There are many kung fu practitioners here that can't stop telling everyone about their decades of "kung fu"experience but when asked about the internals they will turn around and say that they don't exist and/or they are fantasy, etc. (no doubt with a confused look on their faces when they are typing those words...lol).

However, people such Shadow Warrior and Hendrik do practice Wing Chun internally and as a result, at least in Shadow's case he sees your remarks as an "attack" on Wing Chun. I don't think that he should, because of this statement:


when i refer to my wing chun being hollow i refer to my experience of it which was stick to hit, explosive speed, but shooting blanks, just physical ! no inclusion of chi or mind.

That is a fair statement. Your experience of Wing Chun is equal to about 95% percent of WC practitioners here in the West. The lineage that I practice considers itself an internal system. However, we are aware that most WC and other kung fu styles are practised in a hollow manner in the western hemisphere.

The lack of input regarding the internals in this very thread from the many Wing Chun practitioners who post here, including the member who posted the second Yap Leong video may be an indication of this phenomenom.;)

Having said that, I know there are a handful of Knowledgable Wing Chun sifus here who could add more.:)



you talk about me being idolising sifu yap leong, you are blinded by your own idolising, you can see the tricks used in some of the videos you posted. they are mostly set ups, always retreating,
Any quality wuzu player would never retreat,

I was taught to never retreat as well as retreating gives momentum to your attacker by provide him with space (as well as other obvious reasons). I have seen a lot Wing Chun classes where people go back regularly as a matter of course. I suppose if the sensitivity/listening aspects taught to them are superficial then going back is the only option open to them when faced with a stronger enemy.

Furthermore I was led to believe that the late sifu Joseph Cheng was an internalist. He used to live in London. Ask sifu Yap Leong about him as I believe that they knew each other.

Shadow_warrior and Shaolin Fist, I am just interested, do you go back when you spar or Chi Sao in your schools or do you absorb and hit back by rolling your stances, sidestepping or by 45 degree advance steps?

I know from a past conversation that, if I remember correctly, sifu Ali Rahim (who posts here) teaches this way.:)

[Hendrik]

Isnt Five ancestor an off spring of Fujian White Crane around 1840?

[Hardwork108]

Isnt Five ancestor an off spring of Fujian White Crane around 1840?

I know that Five Ancestor Fist is made up of different styles and elements including White Crane but I am not sure about the date it was created.

The other styles that this sytem encompasses include: Lohan, Monkey, Tai cho and Tamo.

There is more info in sifu Yap Leong's own site here:


http://www.shaolinway.com/shaolinway/sifu1.htm

[Hendrik]

I know that Five Ancestor Fist is made up off different styles and elements including White Crane but I am not sure about the date it was created.

The other styles that this sytem encompasses include: Lohan, Monkey, Tai cho and Tamo.

There is more info in sifu Yap Leong's own site here:


http://www.shaolinway.com/shaolinway/sifu1.htm



ok, it is not 1840 but like 1860 or 1870's.

http://www.konghankungfu.com/historyofngochokun.html



In my understanding,



White Crane + Emei , take the Emei 12 zhuang Rou internal path becomes SLT or WCK.

White Crane + Tai Cho....etc take the Shao Lin Kang path (IE iron palm (ti sha chiong) ) become Ngo Cho


Sister art.

What to compare or critics?

[Shadow_warrior8]

The five ancestors i am interested in is the chee kim thong lineage, that implements the float, swallow sink vomit principles. using the breath and yi (mind)
to inform the techniques. when i refer to my wing chun being hollow i refer to my experience of it which was stick to hit, explosive speed, but shooting blanks, just physical ! no inclusion of chi or mind. when i see sifu kwoks chi sao i see a practictioner retreating not manipulating the opponents attacks and leaking through, nor have i seen or felt many wing chun practioners cultivate heavy hands

you talk about me being idolising sifu yap leong, you are blinded by your own idolising, you can see the tricks used in some of the videos you posted. they are mostly set ups, always retreating,
Any quality wuzu player would never retreat,
the concept is to forge forward, as in san chien (three Battles). I am interested in
finding a good wuzu teacher,

i dropped my wing chun, bloody useless.

good luck to you all with your training hope you enjoy your perpetual springtime !

You still looking for a good wuzu master? Yes, please carry on and learn and come back and share.

All Wuzu lineages use the 4 cycles of Tun To Fao Chum, white crane has it, and some lineages of wingchun has it. Which lineages of wuzu dont have?
You believe its the lineage that created the Master's skills?

Please explain your understanding of Tun To Fao Chum in Wuzu? Or mind or chi in Wuzu? And you still havent replied on hard and soft that you mentioned in Wuzu and what you understand from it. More terms, a greater need to elaborate yeah?

when i see sifu kwoks chi sao i see a practictioner retreating not manipulating the opponents attacks and leaking through, nor have i seen or felt many wing chun practioners cultivate heavy hands
Really? I see all that, lao sao, huen sao, lut sao, larp sao, chong choi.....He totally controls the student and striking at will. Not your defination of manupilating opponents attack and leaking through?
How many wingchun masters/practitioners outside of your lineage have you chi saoed with?
You must know a bit of wingchun to know what is happening in the video. It was Samuel kwok showing hard strength doesnt mean Win in wingchun. Alot like you heavy hands principle you embrace. And Shaolin Fist and I talked about it in the previous mails. Still waiting for you to back up your experiences of personal wuzu skills against wingchun.
Lots of wingchun masters have heavy hands, but you cant tell it from a video. If I showed you a video on Kenneth Chung can you tell from video?
And you think heavy hands necessarily means=good? What do you understand when they say in taiji, one must invest in loss and sung.

heavy hands- what causes it? Is it muscles, tendon build up? Or ligament tension? Or relaxed striking like Systema? And whats the difference in styles who say they have heavy hands?
Is it CLF training of S.Weights? Or Iron Locks/KBs in Wuzu?
Or Santi stance breathing in big heavenly circulation in Hsing I? Or Pakua coiling?
Is it about relaxation? Or being tense? What is jang dai lik?(below elbow force)
Is sung= relaxed(in the western sense of the word)?

Is heavy hands the best way?
Why in taiji is it said, Master Yang Lu Chan can stick, and one cannot seem to detach your hand? Yet you cannot move his hand either? And one also feel no resistance?

I was not trained to retreat in wingchun, only charging in. But as my sifu said, use your common sense, if you need to because you are overwhelm, you have to do what you do. Combat is dynamic

Tricks? You know what I will ask when you present deragatory remarks that you dont back up. Qualify your statements Man!!!
Lest you try to say I idolise wingchun, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Sanda, alot of TCMA styles use setups, fake attacks or so called tricks. They are all not as good as Wuzu?

I didnt see any chi or yi demo in Sifu Yap either. That wasnt the purpose of the video, hence your evaluation of Samuel kwok video on those grounds- flawed.

Yes wingchun trained by someone who dont have a humble heart is useless, so is muay thai, boxing, bjj, if one does not spend enough time, nothing works.
Kungfu means hard work. And it requires a students heart, the essense of TCMA, faith, humility, honour the ancestors and the way, honour the source of the water.

Here is Wuzu in competition, actual fighting
http://www.56.com/u79/v_NDE0NTkyNDQ.html
They do retreat, if its is part of their fighting strategy and these are China Graded top notch fighters.
Any quality wuzu player would never retreat
Really? Thats interesting.....Is it part of the kuen kuit?
Who else can you name besides Sifu Yap, whom you saw on the net, as "QUALITY" Wuzu stylist
This video shows him taking steps back- your so called retreat. Not unlike what Sifu Kwok showed in his video and not that there is anything wrong with taking steps back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZraRtBDlg

You have revealed your knowledge of wuzu and wingchun. You are right, it was YOUR experience of wingchun that was bloody useless, not wingchun.
Please carry on your search to find your truth, be happy.

[Shadow_warrior8]

HW108, we are asking Shaolinfist for more info because it suspiciously seems like he did a 1 month course in wingchun and walked away saying it didnt work. He makes insulting remarks like he's an expert in Wuzu and Wingchun, but when asked for technical knowledge, its at best textbook or superficial internet info
Which Wuzu lineage doesnt have tun, to, fao, chum? Or the 5 parts power?
We were looking to talk mechanics not silly stories.

Heres my view, 95% of the west isnt all of wingchun family. Wingchun is still alive and taught traditionally in china. And it has billions of people, so whats the west 95%? And in the US people like Senior Hendrik have given data points to his lineage of Yik Kam wingchun for years. Others like Kenneth Chung, Sifu Chu many others. I suspect, many dont go and find out what to look for in an authentic art, and find someone substandard and then claim I know whats its all about. If your reference point is the limited number of wingchun people you met in the west, then its a really flawed and egotistic statement to say, yeah Wingchun doesnt work.

In wingchun, these were the teachings taught to me, and yes we are not taught to retreat(unless you have to because you are being overwhelmed)
These are e.gs of principles we use for movements, as well as fist.

1. Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. So if my fist enters into 2nd gate, elbow, I will charge in, to attack the 3rd gate, no delay. Most times, we start with the 1st gate, at wrist contact already.

2. Lien Siu Dai Da- what does it mean to simultaneous attack and defend? I will always be looking to end the fight with 1 blow, if there is no bridge obstruction.
If it happens that he has "blocked", then i will lao sao, huen sao or cut and attack again like chong choi with elbow below force. Still it is one movement. And I will Fan Sao, Flip fists meaning rain blows without stopping, till he is down.

3. One movement, one strike, there is no blocking. E.g Pak sao, we do not pak intentionally, we strike a jeung, if there is obstruction bridge, it becomes a pak. And even at pak, enter 3 gates principle means bil, or chong choi, without stopping- enter 1, enter all.

Here's what I mean in more words

Wing Chun Kuen is to attack!!!!

If you are not attacking the attacker's attack, you are not doing wingchun- WSL

His thoughts on Chi Sao, too much of it, and chasing hands
1. CHI SAU
For example, too much emphasis on the idea of "sticking to the hands" will cause such bad habits as "chasing the hands" of the opponent and thus totally contradict one of Wing Chun's most basic fighting principles. It is only if your attack meets with an obstruction that you have to change to attain your goal and this is where "sticky hands" comes into play, as a means to an end, that end being the winning of the fight.

In WSL's method, its known as “attack is ALWAYS the best form of defence”.
Let's pause here to define, in simple terms, what is meant by these three above-mentioned qualities:-
DIRECTNESS: Extending or moving in a straight line, or by the shortest route; not crooked or oblique; going straight to the point.
EFFICIENCY: Productive; with minimum waste of effort; ratio of useful work performed to energy expended.
SIMPLICITY: Easily understood or done; not complicated or elaborate; consisting of, or involving only one element of operation.

In wingchun kuen kuit, it says,

Dont force a hit, dont anyhow strike.(hence no sticking of hands, hitting of hands, chasing hands)
It also says, 1 strike 1 attack, that when you move to strike it must attack
It says also the hand that defends, also attacks(same hand), or in worst senario, one attacks with the other defending(using up 2 guns instead of 1, 6 weapons of wingchun instead of 3)
Kuen goes on to describe this art, to say, simultaneous attack and defense(the defense is in the attack)
Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. it says how the art is really about continuous attacks, from 1st gate into the 3 gates(many play at the first gate, the bridge and never get into first base)

It is obvious that leaving the hand out on top of each other is subjective?(like taiji taboo, why do you leave meat hanging on a rock).
It is wrong to touch hands for the sake of touching hands(I mean what on earth are these people doing???holding hands????)
Its silly to wait for the person to attack and then react based on feeling. ATTACK based on weakness- wingchun is about attacking.

Dont make chi sao= chasing hands. Its not. Its not waiting for a feeling. Its like saying waiting for something to happen. Wing Chun was used as a killing art in some lineages like Fung Siu Ching etc.... It attacks suddenly and ruthlessly.

In a strike/attack, only when one encounters a obstacle, does one have to chi(to get around the hand, under, control for better position) etc.... And the word chi means stick with arms, body, structure, spirit.

I qualify, this is MY personal understanding of wingchun. Italics is WSL, the rest is mine.

[Hendrik]

HW108, we are asking Shaolinfist for more info because it suspiciously seems like he did a 1 month course in wingchun and walked away saying it didnt work. ............


IMHO,

Let it be.

what is not fact never become fact disregard who said what.

[Shadow_warrior8]

IMHO,

Let it be.

what is not fact never become fact disregard who said what.

Yes senior hendrik, its sad isnt it?

I come to share and learn only to find people challenge the art, the history, the mechanics. Its not sharing of the art, its bashing of the art, and inter lineage bashing, and IMHO a low understanding of TCMA, it doesnt open any doors. In fact, its shuts all doors.

I suggest a whole new thread for this forum- I hate Wingchun, Wingchun sucks, I hate TCMA, I love BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, but not wingchun, I hate Chi, Jing, Shen in wingchun, I know better than Yip Man because etc...

It sounds silly, but many of the posts here are just that, and there is truth in my silly post.

[Hendrik]

Yes senior hendrik, its sad isnt it?

I come to share and learn only to find people challenge the art, the history, the mechanics. Its not sharing of the art, its bashing of the art, and inter lineage bashing, and IMHO a low understanding of TCMA, it doesnt open any doors. In fact, its shuts all doors.

I suggest a whole new thread for this forum- I hate Wingchun, Wingchun sucks, I hate TCMA, I love BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, but not wingchun, I hate Chi, Jing, Shen in wingchun, I know better than Yip Man because etc...

It sounds silly, but many of the posts here are just that, and there is truth in my silly post.




To be real honest, that is their problem not your.

if you like to share, then just share and not expect anyone to take it serious. For those who will take it serious will. Those who doesnt care will not care.


For WuZu and WCK, face it,
the Origin creator of Wuzu doing Iron Palm, that told alots on the characteristics of the art.

as for WCK, the inch jin is alway link with WCK. That told alots on the characteristics of the art.


if the WUzu player got Iron Palm but the wCner doesnt have inch Jin the what to talk? no inch jin means not well train in WCK by the ancient standard. what WCK if one doesnt even have a weapon ?



technically,

to be real honest, lots of WCK is dead, thier training cant even open the 8 medirians as in the past. So, it is hopeless. Thier YJKYM couldnt even stablelized them while standing in a bus. Thier SLT is totally garbage.

When I was in SEA decade ago, I told those who substitude some CLF training into WCK that thier stuffs cant stand the rapid fire from the white crane sanchin stance: No stability, no power, under rapid fire condition. Forget about those sets and sets and secret sets. Those are junk without the 8 medirians open up.


I dont want to say alots about Jin because I dont like to promote figthing fighting and egoistic bs, we all need to know the consequence of our action in this high medical cost era... it is not worthed to pay a big price due to one's ignorance and emotional. Thus, with all the promotion of agresive and figthing era, I often pray that Wing Chun ended and vanish in this world, atleast that way, no more WCner and no more people get hurt by WCK.

Once I told a famous WCK sifu, if your student hurt some one and he goes to hell, you taught him that and thus you go with him. What is the point to go to hell? The ancient Chinese ancestors purposely bring up the Loving Kindness education before passing the technology, there is a reason for that. a very human one. But these days most dont listern, thus, it is better the technology vanished.




just some thougths and if you dont like what I post, that is mine problem, ignore me.

[shaolinfist]

Yes senior hendrik, its sad isnt it?

I come to share and learn only to find people challenge the art, the history, the mechanics. Its not sharing of the art, its bashing of the art, and inter lineage bashing, and IMHO a low understanding of TCMA, it doesnt open any doors. In fact, its shuts all doors.

I suggest a whole new thread for this forum- I hate Wingchun, Wingchun sucks, I hate TCMA, I love BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, but not wingchun, I hate Chi, Jing, Shen in wingchun, I know better than Yip Man because etc...

It sounds silly, but many of the posts here are just that, and there is truth in my silly post.

So much talk, too many teachers and yet still no essence. No wonder you had difficulty with the hard 5A guy.

[shaolinfist]

I have read about him, he was the real deal and was considered a living treasure by the Chinese government (if I remember my readings correctly).

As I mentioned before it is about how a kung fu style is trained and you are right in implying that if one compares chee kim thong's lineage of Five Ancestor Fist to most Wing Chun that is trained here in the West, then there is no contest. I said before that it seems that most Wing Chun is trained externally.

There are many kung fu practitioners here that can't stop telling everyone about their decades of "kung fu"experience but when asked about the internals they will turn around and say that they don't exist and/or they are fantasy, etc. (no doubt with a confused look on their faces when they are typing those words...lol).

However, people such Shadow Warrior and Hendrik do practice Wing Chun internally and as a result, at least in Shadow's case he sees your remarks as an "attack" on Wing Chun. I don't think that he should, because of this statement:



That is a fair statement. Your experience of Wing Chun is equal to about 95% percent of WC practitioners here in the West. The lineage that I practice considers itself an internal system. However, we are aware that most WC and other kung fu styles are practised in a hollow manner in the western hemisphere.

The lack of input regarding the internals in this very thread from the many Wing Chun practitioners who post here, including the member who posted the second Yap Leong video may be an indication of this phenomenom.;)

Having said that, I know there are a handful of Knowledgable Wing Chun sifus here who could add more.:)



I was taught to never retreat as well as retreating gives momentum to your attacker by provide him with space (as well as other obvious reasons). I have seen a lot Wing Chun classes where people go back regularly as a matter of course. I suppose if the sensitivity/listening aspects taught to them are superficial then going back is the only option open to them when faced with a stronger enemy.

Furthermore I was led to believe that the late sifu Joseph Cheng was an internalist. He used to live in London. Ask sifu Yap Leong about him as I believe that they knew each other.

Shadow_warrior and Shaolin Fist, I am just interested, do you go back when you spar or Chi Sao in your schools or do you absorb and hit back by rolling your stances, sidestepping or by 45 degree advance steps?

I know from a past conversation that, if I remember correctly, sifu Ali Rahim (who posts here) teaches this way.:)

I heard this story long time ago from a source who knew Sifu Yap Leong well. Yes they did meet 20yrs ago. The two had an interesting one-hand chi sau challenge initiated by Sifu Joseph Cheng. Both were seated on opposite side of the table at a Chinese cafe/restaurant. One hand chi sau became two-hands. You have to guess who won hands down or rather one/two hands up. Interestingly, I also heard of an encouter with a top Chinese sifu, whom, maybe, Shadowless Warrior will be interested to know. However I do not have confirmation of this story to enlighten you.

[Hardwork108]

HW108, we are asking Shaolinfist for more info because it suspiciously seems like he did a 1 month course in wingchun and walked away saying it didnt work.

I understand what you are saying but shaolinfist already indicated that his remarks were based on his experience of Wing Chun and unfortunately we all know of the quality of Wing Chun as practiced in the West, specially regarding the internals.

So in that regard his comments do not come out as outrageous. Perhaps he is being slightly blunt but I do not think that it should be taken as an insult. I practice Wing Chun as an internal art and hence I did not take what he said as an insult. :)


Heres my view, 95% of the west isnt all of wingchun family.

You are right but for the people who live in the West 95% percent is all of the wing chun family. Please believe me when I say that when I first started to post in this forum one couldn`t mention the internals in Wing Chun (or kung fu) without being attacked and ridiculed by other so called "kung fu" posters who were nothing but MMA-ists and had no idea of the internals.

It seems that as far as kung fu in the Western hemisphere goes, most (not all) people here practice some forms and then go on to spar while jumping around like a boxers or kickboxers without kung fu roots and so on, and they call this kung fu or even sometimes they dare call it "improved" kung fu.

Of course, many people make a lot of money from selling this "improved" kung fu. The result is that most people including some so called "sifus" don't have any idea about internals and by extension authentic kung fu training.

This forum is full of people like that, I would say 95% full. ;)


Wingchun is still alive and taught traditionally in china.

Thank god for that.:)

I am sure that there is a wealth of other kung fu styles that are practiced traditionally in China. Of course, I hear that there are good kung fu schools in Singapore, Taiwan and Malaysia as well.



Senior Hendrik have given data points to his lineage of Yik Kam wingchun for years. Others like Kenneth Chung, Sifu Chu many others. I suspect, many dont go and find out what to look for in an authentic art, and find someone substandard and then claim I know whats its all about.

This forum is full of such people. However, I would say that shaolinfist may have finally found an authentic and suitable for him, style of kung fu which is the Chee Kim Thong lineage of Five Ancestor Fist as taught by sifu Yap Leong. As a result his remarks are understandable when considering that he may have trained the substandard Wing Chun like 95% of the people here in the West.



If your reference point is the limited number of wingchun people you met in the west, then its a really flawed and egotistic statement to say, yeah Wingchun doesnt work.

Perhaps he didn't know that there was a better and authentic Wing Chun still being taught in China as well as some parts of the West? I hope now that we have informed him of this fact then he will be more understanding of the Wing Chun approach.:)


In wingchun, these were the teachings taught to me, and yes we are not taught to retreat(unless you have to because you are being overwhelmed)
Very true. If overwhelmed we were taught to take one step back while reclaiming our central line and then continue "forward" as always.





1. Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. So if my fist enters into 2nd gate, elbow, I will charge in, to attack the 3rd gate, no delay. Most times, we start with the 1st gate, at wrist contact already.

2. Lien Siu Dai Da- what does it mean to simultaneous attack and defend? I will always be looking to end the fight with 1 blow, if there is no bridge obstruction.
If it happens that he has "blocked", then i will lao sao, huen sao or cut and attack again like chong choi with elbow below force. Still it is one movement. And I will Fan Sao, Flip fists meaning rain blows without stopping, till he is down.

3. One movement, one strike, there is no blocking. E.g Pak sao, we do not pak intentionally, we strike a jeung, if there is obstruction bridge, it becomes a pak. And even at pak, enter 3 gates principle means bil, or chong choi, without stopping- enter 1, enter all.

Here's what I mean in more words

Wing Chun Kuen is to attack!!!!

If you are not attacking the attacker's attack, you are not doing wingchun- WSL

His thoughts on Chi Sao, too much of it, and chasing hands
1. CHI SAU
For example, too much emphasis on the idea of "sticking to the hands" will cause such bad habits as "chasing the hands" of the opponent and thus totally contradict one of Wing Chun's most basic fighting principles. It is only if your attack meets with an obstruction that you have to change to attain your goal and this is where "sticky hands" comes into play, as a means to an end, that end being the winning of the fight.

In WSL's method, its known as “attack is ALWAYS the best form of defence”.
Let's pause here to define, in simple terms, what is meant by these three above-mentioned qualities:-
DIRECTNESS: Extending or moving in a straight line, or by the shortest route; not crooked or oblique; going straight to the point.
EFFICIENCY: Productive; with minimum waste of effort; ratio of useful work performed to energy expended.
SIMPLICITY: Easily understood or done; not complicated or elaborate; consisting of, or involving only one element of operation.

In wingchun kuen kuit, it says,

Dont force a hit, dont anyhow strike.(hence no sticking of hands, hitting of hands, chasing hands)
It also says, 1 strike 1 attack, that when you move to strike it must attack
It says also the hand that defends, also attacks(same hand), or in worst senario, one attacks with the other defending(using up 2 guns instead of 1, 6 weapons of wingchun instead of 3)
Kuen goes on to describe this art, to say, simultaneous attack and defense(the defense is in the attack)
Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. it says how the art is really about continuous attacks, from 1st gate into the 3 gates(many play at the first gate, the bridge and never get into first base)

It is obvious that leaving the hand out on top of each other is subjective?(like taiji taboo, why do you leave meat hanging on a rock).
It is wrong to touch hands for the sake of touching hands(I mean what on earth are these people doing???holding hands????)
Its silly to wait for the person to attack and then react based on feeling. ATTACK based on weakness- wingchun is about attacking.

Dont make chi sao= chasing hands. Its not. Its not waiting for a feeling. Its like saying waiting for something to happen. Wing Chun was used as a killing art in some lineages like Fung Siu Ching etc.... It attacks suddenly and ruthlessly.

In a strike/attack, only when one encounters a obstacle, does one have to chi(to get around the hand, under, control for better position) etc.... And the word chi means stick with arms, body, structure, spirit.

I qualify, this is MY personal understanding of wingchun. Italics is WSL, the rest is mine.

All good from where I am reading.:)

[Hardwork108]

I heard this story long time ago from a source who knew Sifu Yap Leong well. Yes they did meet 20yrs ago. The two had an interesting one-hand chi sau challenge initiated by Sifu Joseph Cheng. Both were seated on opposite side of the table at a Chinese cafe/restaurant. One hand chi sau became two-hands. You have to guess who won hands down or rather one/two hands up. Interestingly, I also heard of an encouter with a top Chinese sifu, whom, maybe, Shadowless Warrior will be interested to know. However I do not have confirmation of this story to enlighten you.

Thanks for that story. There is always one winner in such encounters and it is difficult to win against someone with sifu Yap Leong's caliber. However, a good source told me that Joseph Cheng had potent internal skills.;)

[Hardwork108]

Sister art.

Sister art but with some important differences.


What to compare or critics?


I only criticise the way Wing Chun is taught in the West 95% of the time and the resultant misunderstandings and lack of expertise one sees all over this forum.

Of course, the same is true about other kung fu styles as well because most people here in the West seem to be training their kung fu externally and they end up with something that is more similar to kickboxing than authentic kung fu. You, Hendrik, Shadow_warrior, myself (I still consider myself a beginner) and a relatively few others here in the forums are the lucky exceptions. :)

[Hendrik]

Sister art but with some important differences. --------



Sure, one is Shao Lin influence one is Emei influence.

To compare the difference doesnt have to get to who is better. IMHO.






I only criticise the way Wing Chun is taught in the West 95% of the time and the resultant misunderstandings and lack of expertise one sees all over this forum. ---------


To be real honest, dont criticse. whatever happen in the West is the responsibility of the East.

Wing Chun has been redefine many times since early 1900. That alone has created big issues.

Not to mention how can one so sure one is right? Those are self-rigtheousness trap.








Of course, the same is true about other kung fu styles as well because most people here in the West seem to be training their kung fu externally ------


To be real honest again, What is external? What is internal? What is the attainment of internal be able to let one justify internal training?
As soon as these question is not answered clearly it is chaos.


Just be very very frank, I dont think most know what is going on internal art. Including those who post in Youtube and make people jump around. alots of these are just demonstration tricks.


and also, Internal is based on external. Without external, there is no internal.






and they end up with something that is more similar to kickboxing than authentic kung fu. -------


As a kyokushin myself, I dont see anything wrong with similar to Kickboxing...etc. I personally love kyokushin because there is no BS. (but no BS doesnt mean one can be errogant to look down on others)


as for authentic Kung fu, what to justified that? In the old time, one is allow to study the form only after 100 days or more of standing post training to make sure the whole body is ONE piece. Do anyone does this today?

I know some one who stand for 3 years 2 hours a day and still can very smooth. Zhen Qi still not evoking well.

So? what is authentic? how many got this type of training?



On the other hand, I also take those who have no clue on TCMA and keep BS with thier speculation mind IE calling TCMA fantasy...etc. is just pure ignorance.






You, Hendrik, Shadow_warrior, myself (I still consider myself a beginner) and a relatively few others here in the forums are the lucky exceptions. :) -----


May be you are the master, may be you can share with us who you are and who is your teacher and lineage?


To be honest, I wouldnt put myself in your "relatively few " catagory. I am just a student with many sifus and continous studying.



In my understanding,

Until one open up all the 8 special medirians and could evoke Zhen Qi at will, one is just begin the internal art path.

so, Let's face it, ask ourselve have we open that 8 special medirians?




So, those who read this post will said so what is so significant on the 8 speicial medirians? Chi ball fantasy again?

Nope, those are as real as gold, open up the 8 speical medirians lead one to be ready for having fast accelerate power ---- as in WCK it called Chuk ken or Keng Ken. Open up the 8 special medirians is the prerequisite of Chuk Ken -- fast acceration power evoking.


Will having this type of abillity guarantee to be a good figther ? Nope, it is just said one knows how to use WCK to a certain degree.

Thus, that is the differentiation of why SLT'/SNT is SLT/SNT, not required the big hip movements or rolling ....etc as from general Shao LIn art. One get beyond the big movements and hip...etc. one just accelerate at will.



In additional, WUZU have Iron palm training. You want to get close body with the WUZU player? better ready to take the palm. if you dont have the WCK fast acceleration ability, meaning be able to redirect his force within inch, forget about it.



Thus, as I said, I am just a student. I know those stuffs because The Cho family ancestor train in Iron Palm, my late sifu told me that at the time they challenge Yik Kam the redboat actor, the Iron Palm ancestor dont even dare to hit or grap others even he was a security guard in the village, for fearing of cause serious damaging to the others.
But, Yik Kam defeat him . Thus, he becomes a student of Yik Kam. without those type of kung fu, well, it is a fantasy to call oneself authentic kung fu player.






Am I an internal person? nope, I am just a student trying to be holistic. and before to be holistic, there are humanistic issue which one has to deal with if it is a TCMA training, as in my understanding.



Finally, you see, we ourselves needs to know where we stand. Facts cant lie.

[Shadow_warrior8]

So much talk, too many teachers and yet still no essence. No wonder you had difficulty with the hard 5A guy.

Still howling at the moon?

You have NOTHING to share on this thread besides a crush on Sifu Yap.

You say a quality Wuzu guy doesnt retreat? So ya insulting Sifu Yap(your idol) as well? Because the last video I showed showed him retreating in chi sao.

You say my wuzu brother isnt quality, doesnt know hard and soft, and doesnt know Tun, To, Fao, Chum- Which when questioned you reveal you know??? You criticise Samuel Kwok on flaws and when asked to substantial, you say? Nothing.
Now you are trying to plug my Wuzu as a winner over wingchun after insulting his 30 years of skills? I politely call it a draw because of my respect for TCMA, bottomline he switched to wingchun, so go figure. And hey, at least wuzu and wingchun met in person, not on youtube.

HW108:
However, I would say that shaolinfist may have finally found an authentic and suitable for him, style of kung fu which is the Chee Kim Thong lineage of Five Ancestor Fist as taught by sifu Yap Leong.
He already said, he didnt train under Sifu Yap and is still looking for a good Wuzu master- in other words still shooting blanks about wuzu and wingchun. He hasnt found nothing, but youtube clips- Fact.

Guys you wanna boost about Wuzu go to a Wuzu thread yeah?

[Shadow_warrior8]

传统武术“内家功法”训练

传统武术内家功夫，就如同比作“汽车的心脏──汽缸”的运动，就是把“汽油十氧气”在气缸中压缩点火，产生 爆炸后释放能量，汽缸内的活塞不停地作：上，下，（沉，浮）运动，通过“曲轴”和“连杆”运动，把动能传递 到各个部位的齿轮上去，从而带动“四个车轮”滚动向前。所以，必须有“进气口与排气口”，进气口一旦被堵塞 ，氧气无法进入汽缸与汽油混合点火，就无能量产生，汽车就停止运行了。而汽车中的供电系统，能控制汽车心脏 “汽缸”的起动和提供照明的作用，人体内部的神经系统通过训练，也是起到控制动力大小，速度，指示进马，退 马，闪避，拦截，进攻，吞吐，沉浮，开合，的作用。
传统内家功夫也是同样道理，如果把人的口与鼻堵塞了，心脏没有了氧气供应，无力运动，生命也会停止。人们常 说的“气力，或力气”，也就是说“有气才有力 ”。是要训练人体自身內部所有的，筋，骨，肌，的同时，必需训练体内的“元气”，这个“元气”是每个人天生 下来就有的它是等于“汽车中的汽油”，把天生的 “元气”结合当前的正常呼吸“氧气”，通过体内自然的迫抗，压缩的作用，将它“元气十氧气”化作巨大能量， 把这些能量通过身体的：筋，骨，肌，送到各个关节部位由各个关节部位改变运动形式，例如“直线吐吞”的技击 ，（相似于机械曲轴连杆运动），和“园型滚动”技击，（相似于齿轮和车辆运动）沉，浮，开合的截击技术，（ 相似于汽缸内的活塞上下活动）。手与腳各個骨關節和上，中，下，三盤，训练自己体内部的筋,骨,氣,游走的 物殊形式的法门.很多南派的传统拳, 剛柔相濟, 近身短打和善于搏擊 化力擒拿, 所以特別注重非常有內涵的“吞 ,吐, 沉，浮, 开，合”等等训练与运用，这就是传统功夫的高深所在，传统咏春拳的三星连环拳，也就是这个原理，一只手有手 腕关节，肘关节，肩关节，简称三关（天文上，古代中，称作“三星”），它不断地“伸直后收缩”运动，形成了 如同汽车的“曲轴连杆活动”！把力量发放出去，人们有了这个认识后，就要求自身的“动，静”训练了，训练中 有“大动训练法，小动训练法，外静内动”训练法，外静内动，有点像“形意拳，心意拳，大成拳，洪家拳，咏春 拳的，扎马，站桩法，在扎马，站桩时训练自己代内的筋，骨，气！不断地拉筋，叠骨，锁关，闭穴，等练习。从 而提升，控制自我释放的能量（功力），否则，就是算能产生再大的力量，无法控制它，就等于一部汽车制动系统 失灵，该动不动，该停不停，一句话：危险”！

Here, this reveals what you know of wingchun internal platform and tun to fao chum

[Hendrik]

传统武术“内家功法”训练

传统武术内家功夫，就如同比作“汽车的心脏──汽缸”的运动，就是把“汽油十氧气”在气缸中压缩点火，产生 爆炸后释放能量，汽缸内的活塞不停地作：上，下，（沉，浮）运动，通过“曲轴”和“连杆”运动，把动能传递 到各个部位的齿轮上去，从而带动“四个车轮”滚动向前。所以，必须有“进气口与排气口”，进气口一旦被堵塞 ，氧气无法进入汽缸与汽油混合点火，就无能量产生，汽车就停止运行了。而汽车中的供电系统，能控制汽车心脏 “汽缸”的起动和提供照明的作用，人体内部的神经系统通过训练，也是起到控制动力大小，速度，指示进马，退 马，闪避，拦截，进攻，吞吐，沉浮，开合，的作用。


传统内家功夫也是同样道理，如果把人的口与鼻堵塞了，心脏没有了氧气供应，无力运动，生命也会停止。人们常 说的“气力，或力气”，也就是说“有气才有力 ”。

是要训练人体自身內部所有的，筋，骨，肌，的同时，必需训练体内的“元气”，这个“元气”是每个人天生下来 就有的它是等于“汽车中的汽油”，把天生的 “元气”结合当前的正常呼吸“氧气”，通过体内自然的迫抗，压缩的作用，将它“元气十氧气”化作巨大能量， 把这些能量通过身体的：筋，骨，肌，送到各个关节部位由各个关节部位改变运动形式，例如“直线吐吞”的技击 ，（相似于机械曲轴连杆运动），和“园型滚动”技击，（相似于齿轮和车辆运动）沉，浮，开合的截击技术，（ 相似于汽缸内的活塞上下活动）。

手与腳各個骨關節和上，中，下，三盤，训练自己体内部的筋,骨,氣,游走的物殊形式的法门.

很多南派的传统拳, 剛柔相濟, 近身短打和善于搏擊 化力擒拿, 所以特別注重非常有內涵的“吞 ,吐, 沉，浮, 开，合”等等训练与运用，

这就是传统功夫的高深所在，传统咏春拳的三星连环拳，也就是这个原理，一只手有手腕关节，肘关节，肩关节， 简称三关（天文上，古代中，称作“三星”），它不断地“伸直后收缩”运动，形成了如同汽车的“曲轴连杆活动 ”！把力量发放出去，


人们有了这个认识后，就要求自身的“动，静”训练了，训练中有“大动训练法，小动训练法，外静 内动”

训练法，外静内动，有点像“形意拳，心意拳，大成拳，洪家拳，咏春拳的，扎马，站桩法，在扎马，站桩时训练 自己代内的筋，骨，气！

不断地拉筋，叠骨，锁关，闭穴，等练习。

从而提升，控制自我释放的能量（功力），否则，就是算能产生再大的力量，无法控制它，就等于一部汽车制动系 统失灵，该动不动，该停不停，一句话：危险”！



Here, this reveals what you know of wingchun internal platform and tun to fao chum



IMHO,

1,

To be real honest, this stuffs are just very general stuffs. It 吞 ,吐, 沉，浮, tun to fao chum can be anything. Internal or external. This is because Swallow , Spit, sinking, and floating are a desription of action. and action is independent of internal or external.


In fact the person who wrote this might have Martial art applications experience however this writing show he doesnt have much internal training experience.

What is the evidence?


是要训练人体自身內部所有的，筋，骨，肌，的同时，必需训练体内的“元气”，这个“元气”是每个人天生下来 就有的它是等于“汽车中的汽油”， 把天生的 “元气”结合当前的正常呼吸“氧气”，
把天生的 “元气”结合当前的正常呼吸“氧气”，


Brief translation :
While training one's body's bone, sinews, muscle, one needs to train the Original Qi. This original Qi is there when one was born......using the pre birth Qi combine with the breathing's oxigen.




Sounds logical however IMHO it is still a general speculation stuffs. If you do it this way, you will get stuck.

Why? as it said in the internal training " the focus is in Yee, Not in breathing, in breathing you will be stuck."

He doesnt know how to cultivate Qi.



another example, he mention


这就是传统功夫的高深所在，传统咏春拳的三星连环拳，也就是这个原理，一只手有手腕关节，肘关节，肩关节， 简称三关（天文上，古代中，称作“三星”），它不断地“伸直后收缩”运动，形成了如同汽车的“曲轴连杆活动 ”！把力量发放出去，


Brief translation: This is where the TCMA's depth and advance, Traditional WCK's tri-start chain punch, the theory is there is wrist join, elbow join, shouldler joins... they continous be in motion in an extent and then shrink manner similar to the car's rotation/level moments to release force.

That is physical stuffs. there is nothing advance or deep about this.



for any internal artists, one will expect the description on "Using Yee to lead Qi, Using Qi to Transport physical body ,' in additional to the physcial, instead of JUST the description of the join movements.





2, to be real frank, in my humble opinon, this is a present day general screw up on example WCner trying to link themself to internal training while dont really understand what is going on in the internal training and have no lineage trainsmission of the WC internal knowledge but grouping something in the modern days and try to upgrade thier WCK. Not knowing, it doesnt work this way. unless the person who wrote it really have the experience.

AS I told Rene at one point, we today can check the "time Stamp" and figure out when it is likely that the stuffs are created.






3, So, what is internal? Certainly this article above dont said it. Not to mention, it is far from a solid article on the internal subject.

and again, dont blame the west but take responsible.

If the East can even straigth things up in additional let the West go whatever the West pretending to be expert like to do.

IE :

via my experience of WingChunpedia's so called researcher purposely set boubt to question Yik Kam's teaching in this and other forum years ago.

This is destroying ancestors' teaching according to TCMA tradition. It is called. "欺師滅祖"




Dont Cry when the other call TCMA fantasy. Because beside fantasy, there is no substance when all the ancestors teaching got destroy because of all the self proclaim expert who is not expert at all.




Just some thoughts.

[Shadow_warrior8]

IMHO,

1,

To be real honest, this stuffs are just very general stuffs. It 吞 ,吐, 沉，浮, tun to fao chum can be anything. Internal or external. This is because Swallow , Spit, sinking, and floating are a desription of action. and action is independent of internal or external.

In fact the person who wrote this might have Martial art applications experience however this writing show he doesnt have much internal training experience.

What is the evidence?

是要训练人体自身內部所有的，筋，骨，肌，的同时，必需训练体内的“元气”，这个“元气”是每个人天生下来 就有的它是等于“汽车中的汽油”， 把天生的 “元气”结合当前的正常呼吸“氧气”，
把天生的 “元气”结合当前的正常呼吸“氧气”，

Brief translation :
While training one's body's bone, sinews, muscle, one needs to train the Original Qi. This original Qi is there when one was born......using the pre birth Qi combine with the breathing's oxigen.

Sounds logical however IMHO it is still a general speculation stuffs. If you do it this way, you will get stuck.

Why? as it said in the internal training " the focus is in Yee, Not in breathing, in breathing you will be stuck."

He doesnt know how to cultivate Qi.

another example, he mention
这就是传统功夫的高深所在，传统咏春拳的三星连环拳，也就是这个原理，一只手有手腕关节，肘关节，肩关节， 简称三关（天文上，古代中，称作“三星”），它不断地“伸直后收缩”运动，形成了如同汽车的“曲轴连杆活动 ”！把力量发放出去，

Brief translation: This is where the TCMA's depth and advance, Traditional WCK's tri-start chain punch, the theory is there is wrist join, elbow join, shouldler joins... they continous be in motion in an extent and then shrink manner similar to the car's rotation/level moments to release force.

That is physical stuffs. there is nothing advance or deep about this.

for any internal artists, one will expect the " description on Using Yee to lead Qi, Using Qi to Transport physical body ,' in additional to the physcial, instead of JUST the description of the join movements.

2, to be real frank, in my humble opinon, this is a present day general screw up WCner trying to link themself to internal training while dont really understand what is going on in the internal training and have no lineage trainsmission of the WC internal knowledge but grouping something in the modern days and try to upgrade thier WCK. Not knowing, it doesnt work this way. unless the person who wrote it really have the experience.

AS I told Rene at one point, we today can check the "time Stamp" and figure out when it is likely that the stuffs are created.

So, what is internal? Certainly this article above dont said it. Not to mention, it is far from a solid article on the internal subject.

and again, dont blame the west but take responsible.

If the East can even straigth things up in additional let the West go whatever the West pretending to be expert like to do.
IE :
via my experience of WingChunpedia purposely set boubt to question Yik Kam's teaching in this and other forum years ago.
This is destroying ancestors' teaching according to TCMA tradition. It is called. "欺師滅祖"

Dont Cry when the other call TCMA fantasy. Because beside fantasy, there is no substance when all the ancestors teaching got destroy because of all the self proclaim expert.
Just some thoughts.

Hendrik Senior, this was not meant to be a article but a short brief, there is heaps more, but that wasnt the point of the post, it was to address the claim wingchun is missing internal training of tun, to, fao, chum or any kind of internal mechanics as claimed by some.

This gentleman who is pretty well known in the mainland circles wrote this, and has studied

杨式咏春拳，是杨文锋师傅，年青时曾学习过多家“传统咏春拳”后，综合整理而成，杨师傅今年大 约五十二岁， 现在广州，欧洲，美洲公开传播，宏扬传统咏春拳技，徒弟，学生遍布全球！
杨师傅在一九七二年清远与花县之间的农场里，（在广东北江附近农场）跟随一个下放劳动改造的懂 旧式咏春的老 和尚，学习十二式和传统理论，是杨文锋师傅的第一个咏春拳启蒙师傅。
一九七五年经人介绍再跟花县赤坭镇（广州橡管厂，珠江汽车轮胎厂）的工人：黄锦强师傅学习传统 咏春拳“小念 头，散手使用”等等，是杨师傅的第二个咏春拳启蒙师傅。
杨师傅在一九八0年，就跟过广州钢铁厂老工人，曹师傅的家中学习“古劳咏春”和“班中咏春拳” 技术。
杨文锋师傅在一九八二年，第一次与朋友叶镜财，高佬忠等人，跟黎钊华师傅学习十二式，小念头， 等实战运用。
杨文锋师傅在一九八五年，跟徐文政师傅家中和越秀公园中，学习咏春拳黏手，木人桩，咏春双刀， 短棍，六点半 棍，等兵器实战理论。
杨文锋师傅在一九八九年，在流花公园中跟随“冯仲源师傅”学习“黄祯咏春拳”的“小稔头，寻桥 ，标指”，三 套路和变化应用技击，传统理论。
杨文锋师傅在一九九五年，第二次再次跟黎钊华师傅，在黎师傅家中学习咏春拳木人桩应用理论，黏 手“不倒翁， 蜗牛触角”等理论研究。
在一九九七年春，杨师傅经过多位传统咏春拳大师傅的指导，武学成材后，有幸认识“岑能大宗”， 经常在白云区 ，花都区内得到“岑能大宗师”的口述教学理论，实战经验，和江湖上恩怨事件等等。

There exist now, as seen in the other thread, many other platforms of internal wingchun, maybe due to cross influences, authentic or not, I cannot comment- But wingchun is practiced in many lineages as a internal MA, that is undeniable.

Out of respect for TCMA and the seniors of the lineages, I wouldnt say anything more, but respect different TCMA view points from authentic sources. You seniors have done more for wingchun for decades, and I am just catching up to contribute.

[Hendrik]

this was not meant to be a article but a short brief, there is heaps more, but that wasnt the point of the post, it was to address the claim wingchun is missing internal training of tun, to, fao, chum or any kind of internal mechanics as claimed by some. --------------


Honestly,

In Chinese, it said, the expert showing just one hand, one will know it is or it is not.


Choose something which is it to post. Dont choose anything which is it is not to post. otherwise you will have a very difficult time defending others fantasy.







This gentleman who is pretty well known in the mainland circles wrote this, and has studied -----


No offense on anyone, however, when it comes to art, it got nothing to do with Well known. either one has it or not. Tittle and position doesnt matter. IMHO







Out of respect for TCMA and the seniors of the lineages, I wouldnt say anything more, but respect different TCMA view points from authentic sources. You seniors have done more for wingchun for decades, and I am just catching up to contribute.-----


IMHO,

You dont have to trap yourself on respect on senior and lineages or rank....

Done WCK for decades doesnt mean one know the art by default.


Be honest, and straight is the teaching of the ancestors.


In WCK, it is said, Learning has no senior or junior, those who has mastering is the teacher.

One must keen in learning, keen is examine the practice and the outcome, keen in asking if one deosnt know without making assumption.



That is because the reality is

can what one present develop the ability, does one have the ability when needed?
one has a responsibility to not mislead others.




As I told those in SEA, I go by "book or the Kuen Kuit of Yik Kam" I careless if you jumping around today study with my siheng tomorrow with my sifu, the day after tommorow with my sigung. The question is " can you do it as what the Book said and according to the Book" if not, move side way disregard of rank. IMHO.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hendrik Senior

尊师重道, 饮水思泉 was conditions for me to being initiated into internal arts teachings. As such this is not a promise I intend to break.

I have been told by a mainland china master,
各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
I have found this to be true of all TCMA lineages

[Hendrik]

I have been told by a mainland china master,
各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
I have found this to be true of all TCMA lineages




It is true that

各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.


However, the above cannot be the excuse of something doesnt make sense.


Chinese Jing Qi Shen Training has been there for more then thousand of years.
One can have different method and different method, however, one cannot violate the basic nature principle.

In the case of your qoute above, the person is confuse on the basic nature principle.




Thus, one can use the saying

各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.


only after one fullfil the nature principle.


One must not using the saying as an alabi or convenient excuse of the in complete or distorted teaching.



Again, That is the reason I dont buy lots of YOUTUBE stuffs showing about internal.


in the west, it is always convenient to say, " that is your interpretation. this is mine intepretation. and all intepretation is equal." That is great in words but it is a totally misleading.



This type of alabi or convernient is actually destroying the art.






The basic training principle/process of Internal art got to be:


1, quiting the mind,

2, open the energy center

3, accumulate the qi.

4, open up the channels.

5, entering into deep silence, let go let god or leading the qi for different applications purpose.




Independent of

各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.


The five above got to be there be it they arrange it differently or in a different combination or different emphasis.



For SLT/SNT, yes, people do these 5 while they are practicing SLT. That is the internal platform of SLT/SNT. different lineage can do it differently but all of the 5 needs to be there in order to call it a holistic training.






PS. 尊师重道, 饮水思泉 ( respect the teacher and humanistic, give credit to the source) is a must for TCMA, However, that also cant be a reason to be manipulate by others.

if one is not clear on what they are learning and speculate it. that is not respect the teacher and humanistic because the wise teacher will not like Yes man who looks respect and give credit but is damaging the art via mis lead others on what is what.


Thus, again, the ancient ancestors is very specific and detail, one cant selectively using 尊师重道, 饮水思泉, 各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法 for a good reason without knowing the facts and present the facts.


We all need to be carefull with these stuffs. Not simple stuffs.

[Hardwork108]

Sister art but with some important differences. --------



Sure, one is Shao Lin influence one is Emei influence.

To compare the difference doesnt have to get to who is better. IMHO.

You are correct even if on some level one of them will be better than the other. Which one? I am not qualified to say. However, it seems that Yap Leong sifu's 5 Ancestor Fist is perhaps superior to Externally trained Wing Chun that is so common nowadays here in the West.


To be real honest, dont criticse. whatever happen in the West is the responsibility of the East.

I understand what you are saying here but I would also add that some so called "sifus" in the West have been teaching this art in very irresponsible ways causing all sorts of problems.


Not to mention how can one so sure one is right? Those are self-rigtheousness trap.
I am right withing the reality that I see and I see the sad state of Wing Chun here in the West. One can even see this when one reads other posters' remarks about this art. Most of these people see TCMA as fantasy, at least on some levels.






To be real honest again, What is external? What is internal? What is the attainment of internal be able to let one justify internal training?
As soon as these question is not answered clearly it is chaos.

All I know is that most of the Wing Chun I see nowadays is NOT internal. So the definition of internals is clear enough for me to see and recognize an art that does not practice in an internal manner.

Just like when I look at some karate practitioners then I see that they don't practice internally. There is no softness, no sensitivity and no listening abilities. Of course, the internals go deeper than that but then you should ask me about that in a few years time.:)



Just be very very frank, I dont think most know what is going on internal art. Including those who post in Youtube and make people jump around. alots of these are just demonstration tricks.

I agree.



and also, Internal is based on external. Without external, there is no internal.

Yin and Yang principles.:)


As a kyokushin myself, I dont see anything wrong with similar to Kickboxing...etc. I personally love kyokushin because there is no BS. (but no BS doesnt mean one can be errogant to look down on others)

That is very true but that is what a lot of people here in the forums do when they practice kickboxing and then go on to call it "improved or functional" kung fu.



as for authentic Kung fu, what to justified that? In the old time, one is allow to study the form only after 100 days or more of standing post training to make sure the whole body is ONE piece. Do anyone does this today?

Unfortunately not.


I know some one who stand for 3 years 2 hours a day and still can very smooth. Zhen Qi still not evoking well.

So? what is authentic? how many got this type of training?

Then we have less authentic and even less authentic. When some people here describe their so called kung fu training here in the forum I conclude that they are NOT practising kung fu but just some fancy kickboxing. That means that they are not even less authentic.


On the other hand, I also take those who have no clue on TCMA and keep BS with thier speculation mind IE calling TCMA fantasy...etc. is just pure ignorance.

They are ignorant because they have never practiced kung fu authentically and have just done some fancy kickboxing with someone who calls himself a "sifu". Thus they will have had an external view of the martial arts.


May be you are the master, may be you can share with us who you are and who is your teacher and lineage?

I am no master, I am just a beginner. If you are really interested in my lineage then please PM me and I will provide you with the details.

I only provide details about myself to genuine kung fu people as recently some idiot took my sifus name and made up lies about me here in the forum while dragging my sifu's real name all over the place. The idiot I am talking about is called Lkfmdc and he was helped by his friend Sanjuro ronin.

Lkfmdc calls himself a "sifu" as well......lol. It seems it is fashionable to call oneself "sifu" in this forum. Sanjuro ronin does not call himself anything, but I have a few names for him but I wont say them because I am too polite.



To be honest, I wouldnt put myself in your "relatively few " catagory. I am just a student with many sifus and continous studying.

Well read some of the other posts in this kung fu forum and you will see that more than 95% percent here practice kung fu externally. That means their approach is incomplete. Many of them call the internals and other aspects of TCMA that they don't understand, fantasy!

Furthermore, most "kung fu" schools out there don't actually teach kung fu but some mish mash. It is difficult to find real, profound kung fu training nowadays, in the West.




In my understanding,

Until one open up all the 8 special medirians and could evoke Zhen Qi at will, one is just begin the internal art path.

I have been taught various chi kung exercises as a part of my training and I suppose that in time they should help open up my meridians or maybe I will have to learn higher level exercises to open my meridians in the correct manner?


so, Let's face it, ask ourselve have we open that 8 special medirians?

I haven't, but I know that my chi kung exercises have helped me to be more relaxed during my training and more focused.





So, those who read this post will said so what is so significant on the 8 speicial medirians? Chi ball fantasy again?

Not me.:)



Nope, those are as real as gold, open up the 8 speical medirians lead one to be ready for having fast accelerate power ---- as in WCK it called Chuk ken or Keng Ken. Open up the 8 special medirians is the prerequisite of Chuk Ken -- fast acceration power evoking.


Will having this type of abillity guarantee to be a good figther ? Nope, it is just said one knows how to use WCK to a certain degree.

Thus, that is the differentiation of why SLT'/SNT is SLT/SNT, not required the big hip movements or rolling ....etc as from general Shao LIn art. One get beyond the big movements and hip...etc. one just accelerate at will.

Is this another reference to "Idependent Power"?


In additional, WUZU have Iron palm training. You want to get close body with the WUZU player? better ready to take the palm. if you dont have the WCK fast acceleration ability, meaning be able to redirect his force within inch, forget about it.

This is going back to what I was saying in previous posts where I said that when Shaolinfist compared Sifu Yap Leong's Five Ancestor Fist with Wing Chun, he was comparing it to the way Wing Chun is trained in most schools in the West. Which means incomplete Wing Chun which in your definition would not have the WCK fast acceleration ability.



Thus, as I said, I am just a student. I know those stuffs because The Cho family ancestor train in Iron Palm, my late sifu told me that at the time they challenge Yik Kam the redboat actor, the Iron Palm ancestor dont even dare to hit or grap others even he was a security guard in the village, for fearing of cause serious damaging to the others.
But, Yik Kam defeat him . Thus, he becomes a student of Yik Kam. without those type of kung fu, well, it is a fantasy to call oneself authentic kung fu player.

I call myself an authentic kung fu student and hopefully one day I will be qualified to call myself an authentic kung fu exponent or player. Authentic Kung fu students cannot be expected to have the suprior skills of authentic kung fu experts or sifus.:)



Am I an internal person? nope, I am just a student trying to be holistic. and before to be holistic, there are humanistic issue which one has to deal with if it is a TCMA training, as in my understanding.

Well another aspect of kung fu training that many people here don't understand is that it is a holistic training approach, however I would say that your authentic training makes you more internal than most people here who claim to train kung fu.:)


Finally, you see, we ourselves needs to know where we stand. Facts cant lie.

I am doing my best to understand where I stand but in time and after a lot more kung fu training my understanding will hopefully be better.:)

[Hardwork108]

It is true that

各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.


However, the above cannot be the excuse of something doesnt make sense.


Chinese Jing Qi Shen Training has been there for more then thousand of years.
One can have different method and different method, however, one cannot violate the basic nature principle.

In the case of your qoute above, the person is confuse on the basic nature principle.




Thus, one can use the saying

各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.


only after one fullfil the nature principle.


One must not using the saying as an alabi or convenient excuse of the in complete or distorted teaching.



Again, That is the reason I dont buy lots of YOUTUBE stuffs showing about internal.


in the west, it is always convenient to say, " that is your interpretation. this is mine intepretation. and all intepretation is equal." That is great in words but it is a totally misleading.



This type of alabi or convernient is actually destroying the art.






The basic training principle/process of Internal art got to be:


1, quiting the mind,

2, open the energy center

3, accumulate the qi.

4, open up the channels.

5, entering into deep silence, let go let god or leading the qi for different applications purpose.




Independent of

各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.


The five above got to be there be it they arrange it differently or in a different combination or different emphasis.



For SLT/SNT, yes, people do these 5 while they are practicing SLT. That is the internal platform of SLT/SNT. different lineage can do it differently but all of the 5 needs to be there in order to call it a holistic training.






PS. 尊师重道, 饮水思泉 ( respect the teacher and humanistic, give credit to the source) is a must for TCMA, However, that also cant be a reason to be manipulate by others.

if one is not clear on what they are learning and speculate it. that is not respect the teacher and humanistic because the wise teacher will not like Yes man who looks respect and give credit but is damaging the art via mis lead others on what is what.


Thus, again, the ancient ancestors is very specific and detail, one cant selectively using 尊师重道, 饮水思泉, 各师各法, 不同师傅, 不同打法 for a good reason without knowing the facts and present the facts.


We all need to be carefull with these stuffs. Not simple stuffs.

It is so good to read your posts. You make clear a lot things and reenforce other things that I have learn but not come across in this forum.

Thank you.

[Hendrik]

You are correct even if on some level one of them will be better than the other. Which one? I am not qualified to say. However, it seems that Yap Leong sifu's 5 Ancestor Fist is perhaps superior to Externally trained Wing Chun that is so common nowadays here in the West.-------------



as my late sifu Cho Hong Choy taugh me on the rule of Kong Sau.

Anyone lost is because of his training is not deep enough. Not the style.

Thus, I would say Sifu Yap doesnt represent Wuzu and who ever compete with him is not represent Wing Chun either. Those are thier own personal testing of skill.


IMHO, that must not be conclude into "Yap Leong sifu's 5 Ancestor Fist is perhaps superior to Externally trained Wing Chun"

and further more not related to WCK teaching in the West.






I understand what you are saying here but I would also add that some so called "sifus" in the West have been teaching this art in very irresponsible ways causing all sorts of problems. -------



IMHO, one must learn to behave properly instead of looking at others issues.





All I know is that most of the Wing Chun I see nowadays is NOT internal. So the definition of internals is clear enough for me to see and recognize an art that does not practice in an internal manner. -------

Again what is internal?
care to share the process of what do you exactly train in
which lineage are you from
where is this process you train in comes from
and what evidence in the history of WCK one can based this process on?

IMHO, anyone claim Internal need to present their legitimate in the lineage they train in, where is the art from. they can said, they invent it now or they can said it is from 1800. all has to be clear state.









I am no master, I am just a beginner. If you are really interested in my lineage then please PM me and I will provide you with the details. ----


Please do not use the PM. please provide the detail for everyone.

As the saying in Chinese, one needs to be Kuang Ming Zhen Da or open and straight forward. One doesnt have to be always right because human is not perfect. But one needs to be open and straight forward.

Nothing needs to be hide because there is nothing cant tell others.





I have been taught various chi kung exercises as a part of my training and I suppose that in time they should help open up my meridians or maybe I will have to learn higher level exercises to open my meridians in the correct manner? -----


IMHO, until we have open up our medirian, what is good to talk about or speculate something we have no clue?

There is no such thing as may be, I suppose in time they should help open up my meridians.
One got to be clear of the cause and effect. It is not a guessing game.






I haven't, but I know that my chi kung exercises have helped me to be more relaxed during my training and more focused. ----------



IMHO, relax doesnt mean a thing. seriously. sleeping can relax too.


Analogy to if a person is going to san francisco, he needs to know the direction, which high way needs to be taken and where is he in the mean time.

[Hendrik]

It is so good to read your posts. You make clear a lot things and reenforce other things that I have learn but not come across in this forum.





It is clear because that is the way how the ancestors teach. Nothing fantasy.


if you all really love WCK, and dont like others to be mislead, you need to behave clean and open and speak only what you can attain. In my humble opinion.


if one dont even have a clear understanding on what one does, forget about the advance stuffs or fighting. ONe just doesnt have the basic to even get the basic correct and solid.