Should you start 2 men training or solo training first?

[YouKnowWho]

If you know the 2 men drills then when you don't have opponent, you can just pretend that you do and you can train your solo drill. This way the solo drill and 2 men drill are identical without modification. Even if you are training solo, you are still training your combat application. The 2 men drill can map into the solo drill but not the other way around. Why so many people prefer to start from solo drill (or form) first?

[David Jamieson]

You have to know yourself before you can properly interact with others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you know the 2 men drills then when you don't have opponent, you can just pretend that you do and you can train your solo drill. This way the solo drill and 2 men drill are identical without modification. Even if you are training solo, you are still training your combat application. The 2 men drill can map into the solo drill but not the other way around. Why so many people prefer to start from solo drill (or form) first?

I agree, after training the basics that is, first 2 man drills and then solo.

[EarthDragon]

Solo training is the root and foundation of what you know.
Two person training build's on this foundation.
Without a strong (self) foundation what you put on top of that will collapse.

Why does one learn an instument solo then after they are good enough go onto join a band or orchestra.....

I like the way david put it.... but he and I are almost always on the same train of thought.

[YouKnowWho]

You can always try to know your opponent first. It's like you study the job market and find out what kind of jobs are available, you then go to school and select only those classes that can help you to get that job. The advantage of this approach is that you will never take a class that will be useless in your career. If you just ignore the outside world and concentrate on your self-development, you may develop something that will be total useless.

One example, I had spent a lot of training time on my front heel kick when I was young because it exists in almost all the forms that I had learned. One day I realized that I had never used it in fighting and I may never use it for the rest of my life (I like to use front toe push kick because that extra reach), I stopped that training and used that training time for other stuff.

[Hardwork108]

Solo training is the root and foundation of what you know.
Two person training build's on this foundation.
Without a strong (self) foundation what you put on top of that will collapse.

Why does one learn an instument solo then after they are good enough go onto join a band or orchestra.....


Very well put and with a lot of wisdom thrown in.:)

[PlumDragon]

2-man.

Its all about the specificity of training principle. The brain maps solo work in a slightly different way than it does 2-man work. That is, you can do a drill a thousand times with a partner, and then turn into a deer in the headlights when you have to perform it "in the air".

Solo drills are great and they have their place (for example, when you dont have a partner, warmup exercises, circuit training, hitting the bag, conditioning, when youre doing qigong, etc) but they dont fit the primary goal of martial arts, its supplemental. Class time spent LEARNING solo drills is fine; class time spent to check progress is fine; classes spent doing nothing but solo drills when there are partners to work with is, IMHO, time that could be better spent...

[Water Dragon]

Class is for 2 man work, home is for solo work. Two parts of the same whole, IMO.

[EarthDragon]

a quikc outline of our system is set up like this....

sash levels
10 body cordinations,
8 of each.....fists, palms, elbows, blocks, hands and stances.
8 of each kick high, low knees and kick blocks.
5 forms.

these are all solo to train the self.

then the next 5 silver levels take these solo techniques and add the element of a partner for fighting application. the 5th silver is throwing appication.

then the next 5 gold levels take the the application and add throwing and joint locking.


as you can see you take the orginal solo training and add 2 person application then add higher level 2 person application and finally finishing techniques.

for this to be executed properly YOU MUST HAVE YOUR SOLO TECHNIQUES PERFECT FIRST.. or the 2 person application wont work correctly.... this is why it is necessary to perfect your solo's first before you add the element of a partner.
This is not to be confuSed with working with someone in class i.e blocking drilling forearm and shin conditioning.. push hands etc etc.

most the the experiecend Martial artists that see how our system is set up compliments it constantly as it makes the most sense, and again is a constant buiding of the previous level while adding things as you go. I have seen a lot of cirriculums and styles out there that are all over the place and dont have a constant upward direction.. they go from 2 person back to solo, teach forms without application, teach weapons after 2 man application and so on....

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can always try to know your opponent first. It's like you study the job market and find out what kind of jobs are available, you then go to school and select only those classes that can help you to get that job. The advantage of this approach is that you will never take a class that will be useless in your career. If you just ignore the outside world and concentrate on your self-development, you may develop something that will be total useless.

One example, I had spent a lot of training time on my front heel kick when I was young because it exists in almost all the forms that I had learned. One day I realized that I had never used it in fighting and I may never use it for the rest of my life (I like to use front toe push kick because that extra reach), I stopped that training and used that training time for other stuff.

An excellent point John, one of the reasons for the huge mirad of techniques found in MA is to expose the trainee to different types so he can use what is best for him.
While you may n ever use a heel kick, another one might an dhe may n ever use a low round kick, but another one might, etc, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have to know yourself before you can properly interact with others.

Perhaps, but most people spend a life time and never "know" themselves.
One of the best ways to "know yourself", indeed, the only way, is to face others.

[TenTigers]

I teach drills first. The drills are extracted from the forms. (although we all understand that the technique came first) This makes the forms more relevant, easier to learn as they are familiar with the movement and application, so they have the correct structures and visualizaion. The forms become much more alive and powerful, emphasizing the correct energies,
-and the student learns how to use his Gung-Fu. It is integrated into his body.
This is the traditional method-in most systems.

The reason I say most-certain forms are designed to develop specific things as a foundation, before going onto application. Jook Lum's Sam Bo Ging, develops the body structure, breath, and powers of SPM, before fighting techniques are taught.

[golden arhat]

neither

start sparring as soon as you can. you learn more about yourself and how you work from pitting yourself against someone else than by going through the motions by yourself (though practising by yourself DEFINITLEY has real value i cant stress it enough)

the music analogy is a good one were martial arts about creating art and performance

an instrument by itself can still make music that functions and is pleasing to hear
with a band even more so

martial arts are specifically about combat, and it takes two to tango


you dont learn to dance with yourself.

[golden arhat]

Perhaps, but most people spend a life time and never "know" themselves.
One of the best ways to "know yourself", indeed, the only way, is to face others.

correctamundo:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

One of the best ways to "know yourself", indeed, the only way, is to face others.
The funny thing is "know yourself" usually end with "false illusion". I may think I'm the most good looking guy on this planet. When I walk into a bar and no girls wants to talk to me. I then know that I have lived in my dream for too long.


you don't learn to dance with yourself.
You are right. The 1st day that you take a ball room dancing lesson, the dancing teacher will pair you with an old lady no matter you like it or not.

[PlumDragon]

EarthDragon,

Thanks for offering that detail about your curriculum. It sounds like you have a well structured curriculum that is implemented well and yields positive results.

Personally, Ive spent many many years in similar setups, admittedly many probably not implemented as well as yours; but some were very similar and very good.

I dont think this type of training is counterproductive, but my biggest personal dilemma with these types of programs is that while time spent working on solo material is worthwile for getting better at developing attributes associated with solo material, my experience is that it reduces the speed at which many people learn to handle the pressure and stress of a partner/attacker attempting to do harm.

One of my teachers likes to say, "Who are you under stress"? For me, the byproduct of training solo is being good at solo drills, ie its a great time to focus inward, work on posture, movement, etc etc. But when stress is applied in a 2-man situation, things that may be well refined in solo work become more sloppy and the mind tends to forget some of the lessons it has learned, so these things must be re-programmed under the domain of stress.

These 2 domains of training, while having some important traits in common, are somewhat exclusive from a neurological/neuromuscular perspective. What I am ultimately talking about here is efficiency of the training method; I personally feel that working on 2-man drills (from day-1) with pressure will yeild faster results than splitting time between the 2, or working just solo drills, because of specificity of training.

Now, with that said, I just want to follow it up with the fact that I dont discount your curriculum or what youre doing. We all do our training differently and as much as some may argue, many of us get great results despite others saying it is wrong, etc. What Im saying, is that I respect your method of training and hope I dont come across as saying there is not value in it...here, friendly conversation, sharing of ideas and seeing value in other regimens by gaining an understanding of other methods; thats what its all about! =)




a quikc outline of our system is set up like this....

sash levels
10 body cordinations,
8 of each.....fists, palms, elbows, blocks, hands and stances.
8 of each kick high, low knees and kick blocks.
5 forms.

these are all solo to train the self.

then the next 5 silver levels take these solo techniques and add the element of a partner for fighting application. the 5th silver is throwing appication.

then the next 5 gold levels take the the application and add throwing and joint locking.


as you can see you take the orginal solo training and add 2 person application then add higher level 2 person application and finally finishing techniques.

for this to be executed properly YOU MUST HAVE YOUR SOLO TECHNIQUES PERFECT FIRST.. or the 2 person application wont work correctly.... this is why it is necessary to perfect your solo's first before you add the element of a partner.
This is not to be confuSed with working with someone in class i.e blocking drilling forearm and shin conditioning.. push hands etc etc.

most the the experiecend Martial artists that see how our system is set up compliments it constantly as it makes the most sense, and again is a constant buiding of the previous level while adding things as you go. I have seen a lot of cirriculums and styles out there that are all over the place and dont have a constant upward direction.. they go from 2 person back to solo, teach forms without application, teach weapons after 2 man application and so on....

[EarthDragon]

plum dragon.
I see your point and it makes sense in many ways
.
I have found that when students rush into 2 person training before they have a good solo foundation they tend to spar very sloppy with swinging arms, no footwork and blocking outside of thier body with is a waste of time and energy.
I agree that training withsomeone is a must for timing and distance but this should be done after your body has correct movement.

I still look at sparring as not real combat and it can do more harm then good and instill horrible habits esp if they dont have a godo sefl foundation fo movment.
I sparred a top ranked TKD BB and when he came at me with a kick and shot in foot swept and took him to the ground. he said youy cant do that its illegal.. I had to laugh. I asked him to just cross hands no feet...... he declined....... I asked him to start on the ground....... he declined. I said if you cant fight what are you teaching at your school... he said sparring is fighting..... I said the next time i fight i will have to tell my assaliant that..

So while i find 2 person drills a must thier is a time and place.. plus with the longer cirriculm it weeds out the weak and the guys who just joined wanting over night results. I am too busy for these undedicated students

[PlumDragon]

EarthDragon, I think we may have found our common ground:

Sloppy sparring as you spoke of is definitely rampant; and youre right, a great deal of it is a direct result of sloppy, unpolished basics. What I think many of these sorts of schools lack, is a set of training controls that allow the student to enter the 2-man settings and still maintain proper structure, control, etc. and this, I must admit, is very difficult to find. But there is a method that allows it to work...

So, optimally speaking, you have 2 ways of approaching training:

- Train all the solo stuff so that it is well-refined, then re-train it as 2-man drills.
- Train 2-man but start with only the simplest and most basic of moves/techniques/concepts and incrementally add to that structure only when the student can properly execute each piece properly.

I suppose its possible, and even likely, which way is quicker may boil down to the individual...

This has been a good discussion, glad to have bene a part of it!

[sanjuro_ronin]

EarthDragon, I think we may have found our common ground:

Sloppy sparring as you spoke of is definitely rampant; and youre right, a great deal of it is a direct result of sloppy, unpolished basics. What I think many of these sorts of schools lack, is a set of training controls that allow the student to enter the 2-man settings and still maintain proper structure, control, etc. and this, I must admit, is very difficult to find. But there is a method that allows it to work...

So, optimally speaking, you have 2 ways of approaching training:

- Train all the solo stuff so that it is well-refined, then re-train it as 2-man drills.
- Train 2-man but start with only the simplest and most basic of moves/techniques/concepts and incrementally add to that structure only when the student can properly execute each piece properly.

I suppose its possible, and even likely, which way is quicker may boil down to the individual...

This has been a good discussion, glad to have bene a part of it!

How do you explain MA that have no solo drills other than those that involve "conditioning" or attributes building?

[PlumDragon]

Hi sanjuro,
Im not sure I understand your question: My position throughout this thread is that I AM an advocate 2-man drills and I feel that most schools that train solo often are not maximizing growth. I think you and I speak the same languge here: Specificity of Training...

However, I felt that it was important, not knowing anything about Earth Dragon, to not attempt to discount his methodology, and try to find the common ground.

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro
How do you explain MA that have no solo drills other than those that involve "conditioning" or attributes building?

I would consider these more of a sport than an art. ie kickboxing, judo but i would have to say every martial art must have to train the self at one point. I dont know of any martial art that has no solo training...

I have just seen to many people out there that think they can fight in a class room siutation but not in the street.. this comes from not have a good understand of what your doing befoe they try sparring. in a contriooled environment this can instill bad habits.....I feel this gives people a false sense of confidence.

ie balance is something that needs to be done on your own solo training. distance and timing are something that are 2 man.. without balance distance and timing are useless. the cart before the horse syndrom.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi sanjuro,
Im not sure I understand your question: My position throughout this thread is that I AM an advocate 2-man drills and I feel that most schools that train solo often are not maximizing growth. I think you and I speak the same languge here: Specificity of Training...

However, I felt that it was important, not knowing anything about Earth Dragon, to not attempt to discount his methodology, and try to find the common ground.

I agree, mine was just a simple question, that's all.
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro
How do you explain MA that have no solo drills other than those that involve "conditioning" or attributes building?

I would consider these more of a sport than an art. ie kickboxing, judo but i would have to say every martial art must have to train the self at one point. I dont know of any martial art that has no solo training...

I have just seen to many people out there that think they can fight in a class room siutation but not in the street.. this comes from not have a good understand of what your doing befoe they try sparring. in a contriooled environment this can instill bad habits.....I feel this gives people a false sense of confidence.

ie balance is something that needs to be done on your own solo training. distance and timing are something that are 2 man.. without balance distance and timing are useless. the cart before the horse syndrom.

Art is subjective, one man's art and all that, to say that Judo is not an art is, well, presumptious, but lets not go there for now.
While boxing and KB and MT and Wrestling and BJJ and many other systems have "solo drills", the vast majority is trained, as soon as possible, with a partner.
Most solo training is equipment based.
Fact is, practioners of these systems tend to have a "faster learning curve" in there systems in terms of functional fighting, would you agree ?

[CFT]

I would consider these more of a sport than an art. ie kickboxing, judo but i would have to say every martial art must have to train the self at one point. I dont know of any martial art that has no solo training...I think s_r was asking your opinion on arts that teach the core skill via 2-man interactive drills rather than say solo forms work. I would say wrestling, grappling, judo, etc. falls under this banner. The solo training in these arts would be along the lines of strength and conditioning exercises.

Personally if I was in a training environment I would prefer to spend the majority of the time with interactive drills. A smaller proportion to be spent in "setting up the homework".

EDIT: ooops ... looks like s_r has beat me to it.

[EarthDragon]

Sanjuor,
Art is subjective, one man's art and all that, to say that Judo is not an art is, well, presumptious, but lets not go there for now.
While boxing and KB and MT and Wrestling and BJJ and many other systems have "solo drills", the vast majority is trained, as soon as possible, with a partner.
Most solo training is equipment based.
Fact is, practioners of these systems tend to have a "faster learning curve" in there systems in terms of functional fighting, would you agree ?

I would say that aikijitsu and jujitsu is an art and judo is the sport version of that art . I dont think that presumptious.

I totaly agree with what you saying. and If you consider the sport side or versions of these arts then yes. I would say that learning a complete system obviuoulsy would be different.

But you must realize that while the learning curve may be faster... faster is not usually better. ie learning the anatomy before learning joint locks gives you a far better understanding of how to manipulate the joints to properly lock.

call me a traditionalist but I have found that my students, in the long run need to have a have a more defind and solid understanding of themselves first before they understand others....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would say that aikijitsu and jujitsu is an art and judo is the sport version of that art . I dont think that presumptious.

If you don't see that art in Judo, that's fine, to each their own, no hard feelings.


I totaly agree with what you saying. and If you consider the sport side or versions of these arts then yes. I would say that learning a complete system obviuoulsy would be different.

Define complete.


But you must realize that while the learning curve may be faster... faster is not usually better. ie learning the anatomy before learning joint locks gives you a far better understanding of how to manipulate the joints to properly lock.

call me a traditionalist but I have found that my students, in the long run need to have a have a more defind and solid understanding of themselves first before they understand others....

I can see your point and it can be valid.
In regards to your example of a joint lock, I have never seen anyone taught it without being taught the "why's" of how it works.
Not sure how you are gonna learn a joint lock solo though...

[lkfmdc]

I would say that aikijitsu and jujitsu is an art and judo is the sport version of that art . I dont think that presumptious.



it doesn't make you presumptious, it just makes you wrong in the sense that Judo is not designed for "sport"... ie you are confusing "randori" and "shiai" with sport

[taai gihk yahn]

when I first started studying FMA stick-fighting, I did everything solo for quite a while before partnering with someone else; similarly, when I started teaching it, that's how I did it at first - inevitably, I'd spend a lot of time correcting people's "form" in the air; and then, when we got around to partner work, I had to re-correct it all over again; and it wasn't painless - more like pulling teeth; then, at one point, I started right away doing partner work with people - I mean, from the first #1 strike; and lo and behold: not only did their form improve in general, it did so more rapidly and with less regression; and they learned more in a faster time, and didn't need re-correction after moving from solo to partner; also, when I would then occasionally have them do something solo "in the air", their form was fine, because it wasn't theoretical, it was based on functional interaction; of course, the caveat is that the partnering was always with me, not another beginner, so they got constant feedback and a relatively correct example to follow;
BTW, most of the people I have done this with with good results have been kids ages ~9 - 13...

I have also started teaching taiji push-hands "cold" to people who never did the form, and have had similarly good results - again, that is partially because I have my hands on them constantly giving feedback and correction all the time...

[sanjuro_ronin]

when I first started studying FMA stick-fighting, I did everything solo for quite a while before partnering with someone else; similarly, when I started teaching it, that's how I did it at first - inevitably, I'd spend a lot of time correcting people's "form" in the air; and then, when we got around to partner work, I had to re-correct it all over again; and it wasn't painless - more like pulling teeth; then, at one point, I started right away doing partner work with people - I mean, from the first #1 strike; and lo and behold: not only did their form improve in general, it did so more rapidly and with less regression; and they learned more in a faster time, and didn't need re-correction after moving from solo to partner; also, when I would then occasionally have them do something solo "in the air", their form was fine, because it wasn't theoretical, it was based on functional interaction; of course, the caveat is that the partnering was always with me, not another beginner, so they got constant feedback and a relatively correct example to follow;
BTW, most of the people I have done this with with good results have been kids ages ~9 - 13...

I have also started teaching taiji push-hands "cold" to people who never did the form, and have had similarly good results - again, that is partially because I have my hands on them constantly giving feedback and correction all the time...

I have found the same things to be true of my chosen MA's.

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro,

Not sure how you are gonna learn a joint lock solo though...

allow me to explian
learn the bone name and its function and type of movemtns. learn what type of joint its is............ hinge, radial, rotational then

1. learn to close the distance
2. make sure the hands are in the correct position to block.
3 Use proper footwork to move in or to the side or behind the opponent
4. Close the opponent with the short hand
5. use the footwork again to get around your invisable opponent.
6. adjust the hands if needed to acomplish the lock.
7. end in the correct position with proper balance...

all ths needs to be correct beofre you can execute the actual lock. once the body has muscle memory or even more so celluar memory then adding the opponent is easy.............. the body already knows how and where to go... so I hope you see which comes first the cart or the horse.

If you cant train the horse to walk, turn or stop on your command you cannot expect the horse to listen when you add the cart.
This is my point. you must have proper solo training first..

While yes it is true you may learn quikcer and faster as others have said what person is in a rush to learn MA? this perhaps might be the problem...impatience is not a virtue............. just a hinder

I have been learning for 28 years and I'm beginning to understand a little....

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro,

Not sure how you are gonna learn a joint lock solo though...

allow me to explian
learn the bone name and its function and type of movemtns. learn what type of joint its is............ hinge, radial, rotational then

1. learn to close the distance
2. make sure the hands are in the correct position to block.
3 Use proper footwork to move in or to the side or behind the opponent
4. Close the opponent with the short hand
5. use the footwork again to get around your invisable opponent.
6. adjust the hands if needed to acomplish the lock.
7. end in the correct position with proper balance...

all ths needs to be correct beofre you can execute the actual lock. once the body has muscle memory or even more so celluar memory then adding the opponent is easy.............. the body already knows how and where to go... so I hope you see which comes first the cart or the horse.

If you cant train the horse to walk, turn or stop on your command you cannot expect the horse to listen when you add the cart.
This is my point. you must have proper solo training first..

While yes it is true you may learn quikcer and faster as others have said what person is in a rush to learn MA? this perhaps might be the problem...impatience is not a virtue............. just a hinder

I have been learning for 28 years and I'm beginning to understand a little....

I see what you are saying, but I have always learned those steps in a hands-on with partner application/teaching.
Be it in Kodokan Judo, BJJ or Yoshinkan Aikido.
How can you learn proper positioning without a partner?

[EarthDragon]

gotcha, my experience is from 6 years Of Go Ju karate and 20 years of mantis.. I can see how aikido and BJJ would want you to start with 2 man sooner. as these types of systems dont offer to much solo work... as they are geared differently... just like TKD spends no time on hands they have none.

So I can see who we are both making sense in our respective arts


PS you asked........
How can you learn proper positioning without a partner?

proper head, neck, shoulder arm, hand, torso, hip, knee and foot position.... I know you were propbably thinking postion on the floor or relative to your opponent............ there are always many to look instead of only through ones eyes.... famous Buddhist quote.... LOL just cant remember who said it!

[sanjuro_ronin]

gotcha, my experience is from 6 years Of Go Ju karate and 20 years of mantis.. I can see how aikido and BJJ would want you to start with 2 man sooner. as these types of systems dont offer to much solo work... as they are geared differently... just like TKD spends no time on hands they have none.

So I can see who we are both making sense in our respective arts


PS you asked........
How can you learn proper positioning without a partner?

proper head, neck, shoulder arm, hand, torso, hip, knee and foot position.... I know you were propbably thinking postion on the floor or relative to your opponent............ there are always many to look instead of only through ones eyes.... famous Buddhist quote.... LOL just cant remember who said it!

FYI:
WTF TKD has almost no hands, ITF TKD, of which I hold a 3rd BB, has an almost even blend of hands, 60-40 to be exact.

[EarthDragon]

I have known, sparred, beaten and watched TKD fighters all my life... I can assure you they have no hands....

I dont want to get into a discussion about how basic and elementary TKD is and I dont want to offend anyone but lets not compare complete systems with stretching and cardio workouts here. sorry I mentioned TKD just trying to give an example of a sport that doesnt have much depth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have known, sparred, beaten and watched TKD fighters all my life... I can assure you they have no hands....

I dont want to get into a discussion about how basic and elementary TKD is and I dont want to offend anyone but lets not compare complete systems with stretching and cardio workouts here. sorry I mentioned TKD just trying to give an example of a sport that doesnt have much depth.

I find that critique to be spot on in regards to WTF, it is not so in regards to the other branches of TKD.
And not just the ITF either, I don't know if you know, but there are quite a few systems of that fall under the TKA "umbrella" and most have nothing to do with the Kukikwon.

[TenTigers]

when I trained in Ji Do Kwan, we learned TKD, Hapkido, and boxing.
We had hands.

[sanjuro_ronin]

when I trained in Ji Do Kwan, we learned TKD, Hapkido, and boxing.
We had hands.

My instructor(s), all of them, had hands, of course they were all 1st and 2nd generation guys, guys like Park Jong Soo, Dino Hennings, Choi and such.
Matter of fact, GM Park used to demolish the 200lbs SANDbag with his ridge hand, a hand technique incidently that is one of the CORE techniques of TKD.

[bakxierboxer]

when I trained in Ji Do Kwan, we learned TKD, Hapkido, and boxing.
We had hands.

Ji Do Kwan used to be Henry Cho?

[TenTigers]

I trained with Yeon Hee Park.
http://www.lacancha.com/yeonheepark.html

notice in this shot, he steps inside the opponent's spin kick and is punching.

[bakxierboxer]

I trained with Yeon Hee Park.
http://www.lacancha.com/yeonheepark.html

notice in this shot, he steps inside the opponent's spin kick and is punching.


Nice, but that's not what I asked..... :confused:

It's also a little hard to tell that he's got an actual human opponent there. :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

http://www.henrycho.com/hcho.html

[bakxierboxer]

http://www.henrycho.com/hcho.html


# 9th Degree Tae Kwon Do Grandmaster.

# Became a member of Ji Do Kwan in 1953.

# Captain of the Korea University Tae Kwon Do (Kong Soo Do) team, 1956-1957.
# Came to the United States in 1958.

Thanks, that answered my question.

[Knifefighter]

The first, fundamental rule of training for all human physical performance is specificity of training. That means you spend the majority of time training as close to the conditions that you will be in as possible.

In the case of combat arts, the conditions should be against a partner for the majority of the time.

Solo training for an activity that involves another person as a bedrock of that activity is a waste of time.

Successful baseball players don't spend much time swinging the bat pretending to hit the ball, nor do they run around pretending to catch the ball... and pretty much the same thing with any activity that actually requires performance testing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The first, fundamental rule of training for all human physical performance is specificity of training. That means you spend the majority of time training as close to the conditions that you will be in as possible.

In the case of combat arts, the conditions should be against a partner for the majority of the time.

Solo training for an activity that involves another person as a bedrock of that activity is a waste of time.

Successful baseball players don't spend much time swinging the bat pretending to hit the ball, nor do they run around pretending to catch the ball... and pretty much the same thing with any activity that actually requires performance testing.

Correct, solo training is reserved for "attributes building", like strength training, conditioning and such.
And even then these should as "activity specific" as possible ( don't wanna use the dreaded "S" word, Sport) ;)

[EarthDragon]

knife,
do you really think that comparing baseball to MA is a fair comparison? LOL you can learn how to throw, catch and hit a ball when your 3.

In the case of combat arts, the conditions should be against a partner for the majority of the time.

I agree but we are no talking about majorites here. I just said that you shouldnt start 2 man drills to soon after beginner or before you have a good foundation of the self first.

Solo training for an activity that involves another person as a bedrock of that activity is a waste of time.

I disagree that its a waste of time.. thats why I teach the old fashion way.

I would put any of my mid level students against a brown belt every day of the week and they would have thier asses handed to them.

my students spend at least 9-12 months in solo so then when they are ready (not before) they already have a strong foundation and a profound understanding of what they are capable of.

considering our system takes 5-7 years to reach BB level.

[Knifefighter]

I would put any of my mid level students against a brown belt every day of the week and they would have thier asses handed to them.

So do it. I can find a few BJJ schools in your area. Put them up against the brown belts and see how they do. Post the clips.

Of course, we know that will never happen because, as always, you are talking out of your @ss.

[taai gihk yahn]

My instructor(s), all of them, had hands, of course they were all 1st and 2nd generation guys, guys like Park Jong Soo, Dino Hennings, Choi and such.
Matter of fact, GM Park used to demolish the 200lbs SANDbag with his ridge hand, a hand technique incidently that is one of the CORE techniques of TKD.

I trained with a Park Jong Soo in NY in 1985; he then moved somewhere in FL; is this the same guy, do you think?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I trained with a Park Jong Soo in NY in 1985; he then moved somewhere in FL; is this the same guy, do you think?

The Park I am refering to is Park Jong Soo of Toronto, general Choi's first generation student and at one point, #1 man.

[EarthDragon]

Knifefighter,
As always I regret answering your posts. Try as I might to include you in our grown up conversation and once again you prove your a child.
Wow I thought after what 5 years now you would mature just a little to engage in a disscussion without showing the board how well your reading comprehension is... if you get an adult in the room to read for you you would see I was talking about TKD. Its better to remain silent and let the board think your an idiot then to post something without reading it first and prove them right....

Sanjuro,
Jong Park had a school In Buffalo for many years in the late 70's to mid 80's on 308 oliver St North Tonawanda. I still remember the picutre of him performing a flying drop kick over 5 of his students heads. I believe that pic is still in circulation in T.O is it not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro,
Jong Park had a school In Buffalo for many years in the late 70's to mid 80's on 308 oliver St North Tonawanda. I still remember the picutre of him performing a flying drop kick over 5 of his students heads. I believe that pic is still in circulation in T.O is it not?

There are many pictures of him doing those stunts, as you can imagine.
I knew he had a school there and visited, but I don't think that qualifies as teaching, though I may be wrong.

[EarthDragon]

I remember about hearing him comming down to Buffalo for BB tests to run a class here and there and the occasional seminar, but I wasnt into TKD at the time so I passed.. regretfully so as I look back I would have loved to opportunity.
I should re-editerate here for the record......yes thier are phenomenal TKD teachers and practioners out there. I was speaking of the ones so commonly found in every plaza across america. sorry for making such a sweeping generalization.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember about hearing him comming down to Buffalo to do a seminar in like 1981 or so but I wasnt into TKD at the time so I passed.. regrefully so as I look back I would have loved to opportunity.
I should re-editerate here for the record......yes thier are phenomenal TKD teachers and practioners out there. I was speaking of the ones so commonly found in every plaza across america. sorry for making such a sweeping generalization.

We all tend to make generalizations, we are all guilty of that, we just need to remember that, just like we hate it when some says "kung fu guys can't fight" that for us to say that *insert style here* guys can't fight is just as wrong.

[EarthDragon]

you are absolutley right. I have often taken my foot out of my mouth but I am man enough to admitt it apologize and correct myself.
The other day in court I told a client..... well thats what you get with a free lawyer they all suck.. my friend leans over and said I have a case after this I am doing pro-bono.... (open mouth insert foot)

[sanjuro_ronin]

you are absolutley right. I have often taken my foot out of my mouth but I am man enough to admitt it apologize and correct myself.
The other day in court I told a client..... well thats what you get with a free lawyer they all suck.. my friend leans over and said I have a case after this I am doing pro-bono.... (open mouth insert foot)

LOL
I feel your pain, been there.
Sometimes I am guilty too, but I try at least to say "those that I know, or what I have seen".
To say that all TMA is useless, as some say, is just ridiculous.

[TenTigers]

I believe Solo training came first,
followed by Kuryakin training.
The only one who would know for sure would be Alexander Waverly.