UFC - What A Joke

[BoulderDawg]

I just finished watching that garbage on TV. Brock Lessnar versus Randy Coulture for the world's title.

To start with it kinda says something about your organization to have a guy 46 years old as your world's champion. And they kept calling this guy a Hall of Famer....:D The guy has a record of 16-8 and he's a HOFer?

His opponent: A professional wrestler who's so slow it's not even funny.

Is this the best they can come up with? This almost makes the WWE look respectable!:D

[Kansuke]

Why don't you go show 'em how it's done, big mouth.

[BoulderDawg]

Because I'm not a MMA fighter and never will be. However I am a casual fight fan. When I watch it I expect to see quality. Not some has-been versus a muscle bound pro wrestler.

In fact I saw another fight Lesnar was in......This one was against a guy who actually had a little skill. He beat Lesnar in about two minutes. All he did was play with him until he saw an opening to apply a submission...funny really.

Are you saying that no one can say anything about MMA fights unless they are a fighter themselves? I think the promoters would disagree with you. They need all the fans they can get.

Finally, to be honest, even if I did have the skills to compete, they could not pay me enough to make it worth my while. That's probably the reason they have the talent level they do!

[Kansuke]

Because I'm not a MMA fighter and never will be. However I am a casual fight fan. When I watch it I expect to see quality. Not some has-been versus a muscle bound pro wrestler.

Because your comments were stupid.


Are you saying that no one can say anything about MMA fights unless they are a fighter themselves? I think the promoters would disagree with you. They need all the fans they can get. !

When you watch a professional football game you might note that one team plays better than the other, but to say "Those clowns don't even know how to play football! They are all so slow and clumsy. What a rip-off!" is just plain stupid.


Finally, to be honest, even if I did have the skills to compete, they could not pay me enough to make it worth my while. That's probably the reason they have the talent level they do!

Oh they couldn't pay you enough? :rolleyes: How convenient that it will never come to that, eh?

[BoulderDawg]

Because your comments were stupid.

Right!

You know I've just scanned the posts you have made here. The vast, vast majority ot them are confrontational and offensive to people who may not have the same opinion as you.

If that's your thing then go for it man. It eases the pain of real life doesn't it?

[Three Harmonies]

Another keyboard master:rolleyes:
All those "skill-less" "jokes" would own you like a little Boulder *****!!!

[Oso]

how's about making a point with this thread and cut the crap, mkay? :)

[GreenCloudCLF]

Coutures losses include 2 to Liddell, stoppage by eye cut to Belfort in under a minute. The guy is in his mid-40's and smacked around Tim Sylvia for 25 minutes and turned Gonzaga into a bloody mess in a little over 10. What you saw in November (or last night for whoever didn't see it live) was a 46-year-old who hasn't fought in 18-months lose to someone who probably stepped into the ring 50 pounds heavier. An 18-month hiatus for any professional athlete is a long time, but for a 46 year old full contact fighter it is even more so. Couture didn't even get his head movement going until the second round (Look at the difference between Lesnar round 1 and the whole Sylvia fight). Couture has shown on many occassions he has the ability to take out younger opponents.

That being said Lesnar's hand skill has improved dramatically in his 3 UFC fights (I hate Lesnar, FYI). And in his fight with Mir, Frank admitted postfight that he felt like he was drowning vs. Lesnar and was lucky when he reached up and realized he had grabbed Lesnar's leg. I am looking forward to the rematch now the Mir knows what he is up against. I also noted in that Couture fight that Lesnar is not in the great shape he was in during the Mir fight. It's gotta take a lot out of you to cut down to 265...

[Oso]

yea, good observations.

being just 5 years younger, I don't know how Randy does it. Must have a good stable of medical and psuedo-medical people to keep him going...not taking away from his skills, he's a hero to me a bit, but no matter the mindset, the body just wants to degrade after 40 for sure...maybe he's looking to be the first 50 year old still competing at that level.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I know he attributes a lot of his ability to still compete on his diet. I know that has always been my weak point.

[lkfmdc]

A professional wrestler who's so slow it's not even funny.



google is your friend, google will tell you that he's an All American and an NCAA Div 1 national wrestling champion

IE a better fighter than you could ever hope to be
Oh, and he made MILLIONS being "just" a "professional wrestler"
and he's married to a hot chick....

No wonder you don't like him :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

You can't say a guy is a has-been based on age alone. Bernard Hopkins is a top 10 pound-for-pound boxer and he is 44 years old.

[golgo]

To start with it kinda says something about your organization to have a guy 46 years old as your world's champion. And they kept calling this guy a Hall of Famer....:D The guy has a record of 16-8 and he's a HOFer?


You see these types of records all over the UFC. I don't think this takes anything away from the skill of the UFC, but what I think this does point to is one thing: The current MT/BJJ combo is not the end-all/be-all of MMA. Fighting is largely luck, and skill helps take some of the luck element out of the equation. Look at boxing where you have many fighters with records of 30+ wins and less than 5 losses. Now I know a lot of that comes from "sheltering" of boxers early in their career, but I think it mainly comes down to this - the techniques of the sport (boxing) have pretty well been defined, and fights now come down to skill, game plan and execution and will/heart. Fighers still lose on lucky shots (a la Lewis/Rahman, Lewis/Douglas, etc.) but in general luck is much less of a factor in boxing as it is in MMA. I think this shows how much MMA is still in its infancy stage.

[1bad65]

I wouldn't call it luck at all. It's all about the rules. In MMA, there are alot of ways to end a fight, so 1 mistake is often all it takes. In boxing you have standing 8 counts, which often allow a guy to survive, where in MMA he would likely be finished off. In boxing you can also 'take a knee' to avoid blows, but in MMA if you go down you do not get a respite. Also the gloves used in MMA are easier to KO someone with, and cannot be used for defense like boxing gloves can.

[BoulderDawg]

You see these types of records all over the UFC. I don't think this takes anything away from the skill of the UFC, but what I think this does point to is one thing: The current MT/BJJ combo is not the end-all/be-all of MMA. Fighting is largely luck, and skill helps take some of the luck element out of the equation. Look at boxing where you have many fighters with records of 30+ wins and less than 5 losses. Now I know a lot of that comes from "sheltering" of boxers early in their career, but I think it mainly comes down to this - the techniques of the sport (boxing) have pretty well been defined, and fights now come down to skill, game plan and execution and will/heart. Fighers still lose on lucky shots (a la Lewis/Rahman, Lewis/Douglas, etc.) but in general luck is much less of a factor in boxing as it is in MMA. I think this shows how much MMA is still in its infancy stage.

I can agree with that to a certain extent. I don't keep up with it extremely close but it seems to me there are a lot of different organizations all with different rules. Also, the money is simply not there to attact the top talent. What you get is a group of older guys (like couture), 3rd rate fighters (People who could not make it in boxing, football, etc) and finally pro wrestlers.

I've just read a story tonight where another pro wrestler is looking to sign with the UFC. I forget his name but he's a huge black guy in the mold of a Brock Lesnar. What they are saying (and given the current situation with Lesnar there is no reason to doubt this) is that if you are simply big enough and strong enough you too can be a MMA champion. Also, when I see people who look like the Hulk make the move from pro wrestling to MMA I just wonder about steroid use.

Anyway, MMA is in bad need of talent. They need some guy in his early to mid twenties who would simply dominate the sport. Also, many more Kimbo Slice type fights and they can forget the entire thing.

[golgo]

I wouldn't call it luck at all. It's all about the rules. In MMA, there are alot of ways to end a fight, so 1 mistake is often all it takes. In boxing you have standing 8 counts, which often allow a guy to survive, where in MMA he would likely be finished off. In boxing you can also 'take a knee' to avoid blows, but in MMA if you go down you do not get a respite. Also the gloves used in MMA are easier to KO someone with, and cannot be used for defense like boxing gloves can.

You make some good points, but I still think there is a lot of luck involved. The fact that their gloves allow for easier knockouts, means that it is more likely that 1 lucky shot will end the fight. I still think that as the sport matures, fighters will find ways to neutralize the vast majority of those lucky strikes. The current way of doing that seems to be taking the person to the ground. But, once everyone starts doing that, it becomes easier to defend against. It may take a while, but eventually counter strategies develop. Its like football - various defensive and offensive schemes become popular and seem unstopable - until someone figures out how to stop them. Then people go out and try new schemes and the cycle repeats. I think the same thing will happen in MMA, but it just hasn't been around long enough to see this play out.

[BoulderDawg]

Oh, and he made MILLIONS being "just" a "professional wrestler"

Really? I have a feeling you don't know the business. I would bet that Brock would be surprised that he earned milions in pro wrestling!:D

[golgo]

I
I've just read a story tonight where another pro wrestler is looking to sign with the UFC. I forget his name but he's a huge black guy in the mold of a Brock Lesnar. What they are saying (and given the current situation with Lesnar there is no reason to doubt this) is that if you are simply big enough and strong enough you too can be a MMA champion. Also, when I see people who look like the Hulk make the move from pro wrestling to MMA I just wonder about steroid use.


I am not a fan of pro wrestling, but I will say this - those guys are SUPERIOR athletes and they know how to take an f-in beating.

I just watched the Wrestler this weekend and if even 1/2 of that movie is true, well then I am doubly impressed.

BUT, yeah... the steroid thing. It might be an issue.

[lkfmdc]

Really? I have a feeling you don't know the business. I would bet that Brock would be surprised that he earned milions in pro wrestling!:D

you're an idiot......

[lkfmdc]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/02/12/929079.html

7 year contract, 1 million per year, plus endorsements and product royalties

[1bad65]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/02/12/929079.html

7 year contract, 1 million per year, plus endorsements and product royalties

That source is a Neo blog. It doesn't count. ;)

Seriously, you're arguing with a space cadet that facts and logic mean nothing to.

[TenTigers]

and he's married to a hot chick....


from what I saw, Couture also has a hot chick, AND a cool Chopper!-so there!
(although it is a sickly lime green-ugh!)

[1bad65]

Not all 1 punch KO's are lucky shots. The sport has matured alot since 1993's UFC I. Then it was style-vs-style, now the fighters know you must be well versed in standup, clinch work, takedows/throws, and the ground game. There will always be guys who favor wrestling, or BJJ, etc, but they are all true MIXED martial artists. It's no different than a boxer known for a great jab (Lennox Lewis), or excellent defense (James Toney), etc. Football has evolved, yet some teams favor defense or offense, passing or running, etc. In baseball some teams have great pitching while others favor having heavy hitters. It's the nature of sports, and that's why it's so intriguing to fans.

[BoulderDawg]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/02/12/929079.html

7 year contract, 1 million per year, plus endorsements and product royalties


HA! And you call me an idiot!:D

If you knew anything at all about the business you would know that 99% of those contracts are bottom heavy. To avoid just exactly what happened they structure it where most of that money is going to paid at the tail end of that contract. He only worked 2 years out of that seven. Although either of us knows the particulars of the contract I'll guess he was paid less than a million during his stay in the WWE.

As I said Brock would probably say "Where's all that money?" If you told him he made millions in pro wrestling.

Also the article told it all, After Lesnar had his fun at playing at being a football player he was flat broke and even had the audacity to ask for his job back.

[1bad65]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/02/12/929079.html

7 year contract, 1 million per year, plus endorsements and product royalties

Ken Shamrock was making $1.1 million/year with the WWE when he wrestled. Top talent is paid well. 'Stone Cold' Steve Austin was making over $5 million/year at one time. And that's not counting endorsements or royalties.

[lkfmdc]

HA! And you call me an idiot!:D



I call them as I see them and as they are, you are an idiot




If you knew anything at all about the business you would know that 99% of those contracts are bottom heavy.



I know tons about the business, and I know he was making close to a milion per year just on the "contract", plus endorsements and product royalties...

He also made a "bonus" for "winning the title

So in 2 years he made around $5 million, that is "millions" to anyone but you apparently :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

I call them as I see them and as they are, you are an idiot



I know tons about the business, and I know he was making close to a milion per year just on the "contract", plus endorsements and product royalties...

He also made a "bonus" for "winning the title

So in 2 years he made around $5 million, that is "millions" to anyone but you apparently :rolleyes:

And just how do you know all of that? Did you hear it on the radio!:D
Same place you heard the info about Monson!

[BoulderDawg]

Couture also has a hot chick, AND a cool Chopper!

Who doesn't?:eek:

[1bad65]

I know tons about the business, and I know he was making close to a milion per year just on the "contract", plus endorsements and product royalties...

As a publicly traded company, the WWE has to release it's figures. That obviously includes what they pay their talent.

[冠木侍]

I just finished watching that garbage on TV. Brock Lessnar versus Randy Coulture for the world's title.

To start with it kinda says something about your organization to have a guy 46 years old as your world's champion. And they kept calling this guy a Hall of Famer....:D The guy has a record of 16-8 and he's a HOFer?

His opponent: A professional wrestler who's so slow it's not even funny.

Is this the best they can come up with? This almost makes the WWE look respectable!:D
A big criticism about Randy Couture may be past his prime. He's a good wrestler and it served him well throughout his career. He's been the titleholder in two different weight divisions and has been around a while. That could be why he is a Hall of Famer.

Lesnar's debut fight in the UFC against Frank Mir was interesting. He is all about muscling things and he's definitely got power. There was some domination in the beginning and a stoppage. His inexperience and impatience was his weakness and Mir's skills allowed him to apply that submission.

Lesnar's fight with Heath Herring showed that he can keep a guy down. But no attempts at submissions were made. As long as he can over-power his opponents, Brock can win decisions with no problem. I would like to see him learn more submissions and try to apply them.

What I am excited about is the Penn Vs St-Pierre fight. :D

[Kansuke]

Unfortunately, neither of those two are nearly skilled enough to meet boulderdawg's expert standard.

[golgo]

Not all 1 punch KO's are lucky shots.

True, but if a guy you are billing as one of the top two fighters in your weight class has a 16-8 record, well... I would have to assume someone got lucky against him somewhere along the way.


The sport has matured alot since 1993's UFC I. Then it was style-vs-style, now the fighters know you must be well versed in standup, clinch work, takedows/throws, and the ground game. There will always be guys who favor wrestling, or BJJ, etc, but they are all true MIXED martial artists. It's no different than a boxer known for a great jab (Lennox Lewis), or excellent defense (James Toney), etc. Football has evolved, yet some teams favor defense or offense, passing or running, etc. In baseball some teams have great pitching while others favor having heavy hitters. It's the nature of sports, and that's why it's so intriguing to fans.


Again true, but boxing (as its current sport form) has matured over a period of about 250 years, while football has about 100 under its belt, etc. MMA is the newest sport out there. While it has matured alot in 15 years... it still has a ways to go.

I agree that in sports people will have their own techniques and strategies and its not that everyone in the UFC is a carbon copy.

My point is that everyone seems to running out there with the same tools and they seem to have forgotten that there is more than just a hammer and a screwdriver in the toolbox. Sure they work well, but sometimes there are other tools that are better suited to the job.

[1bad65]

My point is that everyone seems to running out there with the same tools and they seem to have forgotten that there is more than just a hammer and a screwdriver in the toolbox. Sure they work well, but sometimes there are other tools that are better suited to the job.

They work standup, clinch, throws/takedowns, and ground work. What other tools would you say are missing or better suited for the job?

[1bad65]

True, but if a guy you are billing as one of the top two fighters in your weight class has a 16-8 record, well... I would have to assume someone got lucky against him somewhere along the way.

Or he fought alot of top-level guys. The only Couture loss I would say might be luck would be the Belfort fight where a punch grazed his eyeball and scratched it, causing a stoppage. But the punch itself was not lucky, imo.

As to records: MMA has alot less competitors than boxing, thus making it harder to pad your record. Look at Kimbo, probably the most protected fighter ever. Yet on his 4th pro fight he suffered a loss. Speaking of football, last years Super Bowl champions had a record of 14-6, and one of the teams playing in this years has a record of 12-7.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fedor is the greatest.
Nuff said.
:p

[Mr Punch]

Fedor is the greatest.
Nuff said.
:p.


/thread!

[BoulderDawg]

A big criticism about Randy Couture may be past his prime.

It's not really about Couture. You'll find hanger-ons in all sports. The problem lies with the UFC. Is there no one in the UFC in their early to mid twenties who can compete with a 46 year old man?

Also, I read somewhere here that Couture had not defended the title for 16 months......Why is that? Considering this is something new and struggling to find an audience it seems logical to me they would want to promote a title fight 3-4 times a year.

Also I just finished looking at the UFC website. When I went over there I was looking for a list of top contentors. I was surprised to learn there was only 22 heavyweight fighters in the entire organization. These people have a long, long way to go. It also doesn't help that they are banned in New York.

[golgo]

They work standup, clinch, throws/takedowns, and ground work. What other tools would you say are missing or better suited for the job?

Those aren't tools. Those are processes. Tools are what you use when you are in the clinch, on the ground, etc.


Or he fought alot of top-level guys. The only Couture loss I would say might be luck would be the Belfort fight where a punch grazed his eyeball and scratched it, causing a stoppage. But the punch itself was not lucky, imo.

As to records: MMA has alot less competitors than boxing, thus making it harder to pad your record. Look at Kimbo, probably the most protected fighter ever. Yet on his 4th pro fight he suffered a loss. Speaking of football, last years Super Bowl champions had a record of 14-6, and one of the teams playing in this years has a record of 12-7.

Well, honestly I think football is a bad analogy as it is a team sport vs. an individual sport.

I think a lot of people would argue that the punch that tagged Kimbo was a bit of a lucky shot.



Also I just finished looking at the UFC website. When I went over there I was looking for a list of top contentors. I was surprised to learn there was only 22 heavyweight fighters in the entire organization. These people have a long, long way to go. It also doesn't help that they are banned in New York.

Again, the lack of fighters speaks to the relative immaturity of the sport. As the sport matures I think you will see more fighters with higher win-loss ratios, but I don't believe that 15 years into the sport we have seen the end of the maturity and evolution of the sport. If that is the case, it will probably die out.

I dont see the sport dying out because I still think it is maturing and evlolving.

[BoulderDawg]

Again, the lack of fighters speaks to the relative immaturity of the sport. As the sport matures I think you will see more fighters with higher win-loss ratios, but I don't believe that 15 years into the sport we have seen the end of the maturity and evolution of the sport. If that is the case, it will probably die out.

I dont see the sport dying out because I still think it is maturing and evlolving.

As time goes by the "maturity and evolution" of the sport becomes less of a variable. I personally believe everything evolves and changes. Pro baseball is not the same sport it was 15 years ago however their foundation is well structured.

If the UFC cannot settle down and establish itself after 15 years and form a foundation then I doubt it ever will.

[1bad65]

Those aren't tools. Those are processes. Tools are what you use when you are in the clinch, on the ground, etc.

Let's not get ridiculous and argue semantics. Again, what do you think they are missing? What tools do you feel they are not currently using that they should be?


Well, honestly I think football is a bad analogy as it is a team sport vs. an individual sport.

If it's such a bad analagy, why did you bring football up first?


I think a lot of people would argue that the punch that tagged Kimbo was a bit of a lucky shot.

Then they are ignorant about effective striking. Just because the target has a glass jaw does not make the strike a lucky shot.


I dont see the sport dying out because I still think it is maturing and evlolving.

I agree 100% that the sport is not dying out.

[golgo]

As time goes by the "maturity and evolution" of the sport becomes less of a variable. I personally believe everything evolves and changes. Pro baseball is not the same sport it was 15 years ago however their foundation is well structured.

If the UFC cannot settle down and establish itself after 15 years and form a foundation then I doubt it ever will.

Maybe not, but the sport and how it was played is much different than it was 100 years ago. And it was much different 50 years later. A lot has changed since then too. 15 years is nothing. Honestly it doesn't seem that long ago that I popped in my first UFC tape and watched a "sumo" dude get pummeled on the back of his head after the fight was delayed (due to the "sumo" dude shoving his opponent through the octagon's door). A ton has changed since then and a lot more will change in the next 15 years, although not quite as much as the 1st 15 years (IMO).

[golgo]

Let's not get ridiculous and argue semantics. Again, what do you think they are missing? What tools do you feel they are not currently using that they should be?

Its not semantics, but I deal in systems and processes. And sorry, but I am far from an expert in MMA, so I can't tell you what those tools are. I am not trying to turn this into a debate on MA effectiveness, but I have to believe that after hundreds (if not thousands) of years of martial arts development that there are more than only a few that are useful in the ring or that new ones wont be developed in the future.


If it's such a bad analagy, why did you bring football up first?

Because I was using it in reference to the maturity of sports and strategy. However, you can't use it for comparing win-loss records because when you have 22 players on the field (as compared to 2) there are an exponentially larger number of variables that are introduced.

I could have used anything for that comparison that includes strategy and tactics - business military, etc.



Then they are ignorant about effective striking. Just because the target has a glass jaw does not make the strike a lucky shot.

It looked like a perfectly placed stike to me - right on the jaw with all of his weight going straight into the strike. His jaw was in the wrong place at the wrong time.




I agree 100% that the sport is not dying out.

Well, I am glad we agree on one thing. ;)

[MasterKiller]

It's not really about Couture. You'll find hanger-ons in all sports. The problem lies with the UFC. Is there no one in the UFC in their early to mid twenties who can compete with a 46 year old man? I'd say it's more a testament to Randy's supreme physical conditioning AND his skillset that he is still competing at such a high level in the first place.


Also, I read somewhere here that Couture had not defended the title for 16 months......Why is that? Considering this is something new and struggling to find an audience it seems logical to me they would want to promote a title fight 3-4 times a year. He was trying to get out of his contract with Zuffa so he could fight Fedor in another promotion. Zuffa, who owns the UFC, had the legal upper-hand, so he came back to fight and finish his contract.

[1bad65]

I'd say it's more a testament to Randy's supreme physical conditioning AND his skillset that he is still competing at such a high level in the first place.

He was trying to get out of his contract with Zuffa so he could fight Fedor in another promotion. Zuffa, who owns the UFC, had the legal upper-hand, so he came back to fight and finish his contract.

MK is correct on both. As to the contract, Zuffa also had a provision barring Couture from fighting in any other promotion as well.

[GreenCloudCLF]

It's not really about Couture. You'll find hanger-ons in all sports. The problem lies with the UFC. Is there no one in the UFC in their early to mid twenties who can compete with a 46 year old man?

Also, I read somewhere here that Couture had not defended the title for 16 months......Why is that? Considering this is something new and struggling to find an audience it seems logical to me they would want to promote a title fight 3-4 times a year.

Also I just finished looking at the UFC website. When I went over there I was looking for a list of top contentors. I was surprised to learn there was only 22 heavyweight fighters in the entire organization. These people have a long, long way to go. It also doesn't help that they are banned in New York.

What MK said. Also, the UFC has over 250 fighters contracted, spread over 5 weight classes. Some people have contracts that may only see one or two fights, are not listed on their website.

[Oso]

the fact that there are only 22 heavyweights is not an issue...go to any tournament and you will see far fewer heavys than middles...if there are just 250 total over 5 weight classes then 22 at heavy would be about right.

- sez the heavy;)



and who would really say that the UFC was struggling for viewers????