yes lets be honest

[doug maverick]

all martial arts, mma, tma or otherwise are useless cause a 45 will end you no matter what you know or who you trained with. so enough of the mma vs. tma. the reality is if you studied more then one martial art in your life, you know mma, which stands for mixed martial arts last time i looked. its cross training, we've all done it. end

[golden arhat]

correct, just most assaults on people dont happen with guns for obvious reasons(prison sentences etc) they happen with fists and while people still use martial arts functionally(or try to)

the mma vs tma argument will still be relevant

[Lucas]

good training methodologies vs bad training methodologies will always be relevant.

style vs. style arguments, based upon the assumption that each parties thraining methods are up to modern standards, is always just a preference argument. regardless of whether people understand that or not.

[jow yeroc]

I hear ya doug and understand the intent of your post. I personally don't engage in the back and forth about this style that style, mma v tma, pwnage, etc. Some people get off on that and that's cool for them. No worries.
But yeah, not sure about gun violence in other countries but here it's a good chance of getting shot trying to engage in fisticuffs. I'm not speaking for all areas, just saying i know where doug is coming from. Quite a few nasty h0m0cides here
have marred the new year. Star hs football player ready to leave on full scholarship was just gunned down over a fistfight behind a girl.
In other words, people still fight with their hands??

[Reverend Tap]

all martial arts, mma, tma or otherwise are useless cause a 45 will end you no matter what you know or who you trained with.
As long as it remains true that, at close range (<20ft or so, going by the standard of the local PD), a skilled guy using a knife has the combat advantage over a guy with a gun, it's inaccurate to say martial arts are "useless" simply because of the existence of guns. This is not to mention that most people still assault each other with bare hands or simple weapons, most gunshot victims survive (and, particularly given that you're more likely to get shot with a 9mm than a 45, many victims don't even realize they've been shot until after the fight is over), etc etc etc.

The street efficacy of martial arts (TMA or MMA) certainly has changed as weaponry has evolved, but it is wildly inaccurate to suppose that it's somehow vanished entirely.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, firearms are a HUGE factor.
Are you carrying one right now?

[Reverend Tap]

Yes, firearms are a HUGE factor.
Are you carrying one right now?

Not carrying one, don't own one. Been thinking about buying one for a while now, but considering how few of my friends/family members own them (almost zero), I'm at a bit of a loss in terms of what to look at getting. Any thoughts?

[Lucas]

this should work (http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun-2.jpg)

[Reverend Tap]

this should work (http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun-2.jpg)

Not bad, but do they come in blue and white? I want it to match my kung fu uniform.

[xcakid]

As I have said before on various threads on this forum. I pretty much subscribe to what my previous Sifu told me. "A good martial artist always carries a gun"

Back in the day of kung fu, a fighter carried with him various weapons. Those weapons are now obsolete or illegal to carry in the open to a certain extent.

I am fortunate enough to live in a state that still somewhat recognizes the 2nd Ammendment of the US Constitution. So I do own firearms and hold a valid Concealed Handgun Permit.

I also do not take this responsibility lightly. I constantly train to use my firearm and keep up with the laws, as well as shoot frequently to keep up my skills.

Martial is about fighting and defending. It should not be limited to your limbs only. Specially in todays environment.

Now if you live in a nanny state/country where your goverment do not feel law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves by any means necessary, well.....sucks to be you.

[Lucas]

Not bad, but do they come in blue and white? I want it to match my kung fu uniform.

hehe, im sure you can order the delux patriot model, of course then you will have some red mixed in there. ;)

[doug maverick]

i own one, have a carry license(extremely hard to get here in nyc **** near impossible unless of course you know a judge;) ) but have yet to carry it and only have used it at the range. frankly, im not a fan. but i had two amazing ma friends, get into fights beat the guys only for the guys to come back and gun them down. i remember there was a wing chun guy phil i believe who comes on this board, whose son was in a similar situation fortunately he survived, only one of my friends did. but thats not the point of the topic the point is. people dont get that its the person not the style, and many of us have stated this till we are blue in the face, all to no avail. so now i put the supreme style gun fu. and idk about all that knife being superior then a gun in close range cause i would never bring a knife to a gun fight. cause though u may get a stab in one bullet and its over. i dont risk my life when guns are involved unless i know they are going to kill me. and trust me you'll know if you ever been in that situation.

[Old Noob]

1. Stay away from sketchy places
2. Don't talk a bunch of trash
3. Carry gun
4. Carry knife
5. Fight well

Some combination of these has generally carried me through.

[Reverend Tap]

i own one, have a carry license(extremely hard to get here in nyc **** near impossible unless of course you know a judge;) ) but have yet to carry it and only have used it at the range. frankly, im not a fan. but i had two amazing ma friends, get into fights beat the guys only for the guys to come back and gun them down. i remember there was a wing chun guy phil i believe who comes on this board, whose son was in a similar situation fortunately he survived, only one of my friends did. but thats not the point of the topic the point is. people dont get that its the person not the style, and many of us have stated this till we are blue in the face, all to no avail. so now i put the supreme style gun fu. and idk about all that knife being superior then a gun in close range cause i would never bring a knife to a gun fight. cause though u may get a stab in one bullet and its over. i dont risk my life when guns are involved unless i know they are going to kill me. and trust me you'll know if you ever been in that situation.

Fair enough, and I fully agree about the important factor being the individual rather than the style.

Full disclosure: I've never been personally involved in an altercation with firearms involved. I know several people who have, and who have been shot at (and in some cases, shot), often repeatedly. I derive most of my information about firearm-inclusive altercations from them, as well as various statistics and sources such as the local police department, who have a standing policy that shooting a knife-armed suspect at 25ft in self-defense is acceptable, as a quick, skilled person with a knife can actually cover that distance and attack before the officer has time to draw and aim.

[doug maverick]

not to mention they can always just through the knife. but police like to shoot people with wallets, so idk if they are a reliable source.

[doug maverick]

this should work (http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun-2.jpg)

oh hell yeah.

[Mr Punch]

Now if you live in a nanny state/country where your goverment do not feel law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves by any means necessary, well.....sucks to be you.Lived in UK for 27 years, never needed one, highly likely probably never will.

Lived in Japan for 9 years, never needed one, highly likely probably never will.

Sucks to live in a country where you need one if you ask me, but I would sure adopt your advice (and probably tone) if I lived in US.

[Oso]

1. Stay away from sketchy places
2. Don't talk a bunch of trash
3. Carry gun
4. Carry knife
5. Fight well

Some combination of these has generally carried me through.

lol...end game...check mate...shut the forum down....hmmmmmmmm.................

[Songshan]

Full disclosure: I've never been personally involved in an altercation with firearms involved. I know several people who have, and who have been shot at (and in some cases, shot), often repeatedly. I derive most of my information about firearm-inclusive altercations from them, as well as various statistics and sources such as the local police department, who have a standing policy that shooting a knife-armed suspect at 25ft in self-defense is acceptable, as a quick, skilled person with a knife can actually cover that distance and attack before the officer has time to draw and aim.

This is very true. Even seen a training video with Dan Inosanto demonstrating the 25ft rule with a knife.


not to mention they can always just through the knife. but police like to shoot people with wallets, so idk if they are a reliable source.

Well trained Police Officers are a reliable source...key word "well trained". I will say there are some that have no business being in the business. But usually the people who get shot with the wallets usually do something stupid like put their hands in there pockets or lunge for something when the officer is telling them to do something like don't move or put your hands up, etc.

[xcakid]

Lived in UK for 27 years, never needed one, highly likely probably never will.

Lived in Japan for 9 years, never needed one, highly likely probably never will.

Sucks to live in a country where you need one if you ask me, but I would sure adopt your advice (and probably tone) if I lived in US.

I have lived in the US for 35yrs. and have never needed one either. However, the times that you do need one, its typically the times that its too late. I have the option to get one BEFORE I actually NEED to use one. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Its called FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Guess its true. One cannot miss, what one never had. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough, and I fully agree about the important factor being the individual rather than the style.

Full disclosure: I've never been personally involved in an altercation with firearms involved. I know several people who have, and who have been shot at (and in some cases, shot), often repeatedly. I derive most of my information about firearm-inclusive altercations from them, as well as various statistics and sources such as the local police department, who have a standing policy that shooting a knife-armed suspect at 25ft in self-defense is acceptable, as a quick, skilled person with a knife can actually cover that distance and attack before the officer has time to draw and aim.

Quite correct.
In the Die Less Often video series, the Dog Brothers and Gabe Suarez make some very interesting points and, as usual, follow it up with evidence.


As for those with guns, how many of you have used them?

[xcakid]

Quite correct.
As for those with guns, how many of you have used them?


Competitions and recreational shooting. About 2-3 a month. Classes, maybe 2-4 a yr. I own a few so not all of them get a work out. :D

In an altercation. Never had too. Well there was this one, but it was not an altercation. A guy(new next door neighbor I did not know at the time) was banging on my door at 2-3AM. I opened the door with my shotgun and asked wtf he wanted. Apparently his kid was really sick and need to use the phone. I kinda felt bad. But I lived in CA where home invasions were quite popular. So I was pretty satisfied with my precautionary measure. We were able to call the kids Dr. and had his prescriptions trfd to the nearest pharmacy.

[golden arhat]

As for those with guns, how many of you have used them?

i have, which is quite the thing here in gun free land :D

[SPJ]

I was going to say

may be

1, pepper spray for eyes.

2. stun gun to deliver high voltage to shock.

3. stink bomb

4. smoke grenade

--

anything that are non lethal and "immobilizing"

In the old china;

there is this thing called porcupine vest with micro pointing sharps.

not only knife and spear may not go thru

if someone tries to grab, punch or kick you, they would be hurt

if you add poison on them, oops, that would be lethal to your opponent.

using poison/toxin, that is a whole different area of Kung Fu, too,

come to think of it.

--

:eek::D:p

[doug maverick]

This is very true. Even seen a training video with Dan Inosanto demonstrating the 25ft rule with a knife.



Well trained Police Officers are a reliable source...key word "well trained". I will say there are some that have no business being in the business. But usually the people who get shot with the wallets usually do something stupid like put their hands in there pockets or lunge for something when the officer is telling them to do something like don't move or put your hands up, etc.

tell that to amadou diallo and sean bell. diallo had his hands up in the air was shot forty one times. bell was leaving a night club and was shot 50 times. neither showed police any sign of agression. both times cops claimed they saw a gun that was never there

[Songshan]

tell that to amadou diallo and sean bell. diallo had his hands up in the air was shot forty one times. bell was leaving a night club and was shot 50 times. neither showed police any sign of agression. both times cops claimed they saw a gun that was never there

Not exactly accurate. The facts:

In the case of Amadou Diallo, Diallo ran from plain clothed officers after they identified themselves as police. Diallo ran up the steps to his apartment continually ignoring the officer's commands to stop and show his hands. As the officers were approaching, Diallo reached into his jacket pocket. The officers believed he could be reaching for a gun/weapon and fired at him which killed him. The investigation later revealed Diallo was not armed.

In the case of Sean Bell, he was having a bachelor at a night club that was under police surveillance for prostitution. Bell and a group he was with had a disagreement with a female at the club and was heard saying he was going to get his gun. NYPD plain clothed officers heard this and followed the men to their vehicle. The men got in the vehicle when the officers ordered them to stop and put their hands up. Bell ignored the command and accelerated his vehicle striking one of the officers. Officers fired at the vehicle killing Bell and wounding two other men that were with him. The investigation revealed not firearm at the scene but was talk of another male who fled the scene on foot that may have taken whatever was in the vehicle. That person was never found.

In Diallo's case he ran from the officers and ignored officer's commands to stop and show his hands. When he did stop instead of putting his hands up, Diallo reached for his pocket. Why didn't he just stop and comply to begin with? In Bell's case Why did he not listen to verbal commands to stop and show his hands? Instead he accelerated his car and struck one of the officers.

All officers in both incidents were acquitted of criminal charges. Both incidents are indeed "tragic". A loss of a life is serious, especially if you are the one who takes it. There is never glory in that. On the other hand, as an officer myself they reacted in way they were trained to react in potentially deadly force situations. As far as the number of shots that were fired, any active military/police (even retired) will tell you your body goes through physical changes during peak critical incidents. Adrenaline, Tunnel vision, slow motion memories, etc can occur as a result. Even when it comes to firearms. I can assure you those officers had no idea how many rounds they fired after the incident. Can things always be done better? Sure.....through training. Only after everything is done and over with. It is not so easy to make a split second decision when the crap hits the fan. In modern society its always painted as "murder" when a police officer takes a life in a deadly force situation, but when police officers are killed in the line of duty only then is it considered a terrible tragedy in itself.

[doug maverick]

OJ simpson was acquitted too. so in your eyes, if you your a scared immigrant and men aproach you guns drawn you should be shot 41 times. if your leaving a bachelor party and a so called mysterious person that no one and i mean no one according to the testimony of the officers saw neither or outside of the club, has a mysterious gun that again no one but the officers saw you should be shot 51 times. right? thats what you're saying am i correct? excessive force is excessive force there is no excuse for that. an what about abner lewheimer(sp?) the guy who got a plunger stuck up his ass for resisting arest the cops were justified in doing that as well right?

[Songshan]

No, I am not saying that, don't be ignorant. I am not an advocate of police brutality and you are absolutely right in there is no excuse for excessive force. I am just saying you should abide by the laws in whatever country you decide to immigrate to. It's that simple. The officers in both cases didn't just walk down the street and say "gee I am going to shoot someone 41 times today". Look at the totality of the circumstances...not just the end result or interpret what you want without understanding the whole picture. The number of rounds sounds excessive but when you do your research you will find out how the human body reacts to critical incidents, especially with firearms. Did you say you had a CHL?

If armed police officers approached me and told me to stop....I am stopping. Period. Why run? If I your going to announce "I am going to get my gun" in a night club I can assure Police are going to stop and question you. Instead of stopping they threw the car in drive and struck an officer (not to mention the driver was legally intoxicated). The outcome was evident. I find it amazing that so many people make up such poor excuses for things they do wrong and in the defense of others who did things wrong. Did you take a class for that CHL you got or did you just pull enough strings to get your judge friend to give you one?

[TaichiMantis]

And yes, bullets in the head are not a good thing; however, taking repeated shots to the head in other ways will also catch up to you in the end.

Has anyone read the study they've done on NFL players brains and concussions (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9146296/NFL-finally-confronting-impact-of-concussions)?

Makes you think twice about "keeping it real" in training and/or the ring. Would love see what the brains of some mma, boxing, soccer, rugby, hockey athletes look like after a career full of head knocks. :eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

1. Stay away from sketchy places
2. Don't talk a bunch of trash
3. Carry gun
4. Carry knife
5. Fight well

Some combination of these has generally carried me through.

You forgot

6. Run away;)

[YouKnowWho]

Old Chinese saying said (I'm old and I'm Chinese), "If you don't have some kind of weapon with you 24-7 then you are not a true CMA guy."

I believe everybody should have something like this on his waist.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1376/beltno8.th.jpg (http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beltno8.jpg)


Not carrying one, don't own one. Been thinking about buying one for a while now, but considering how few of my friends/family members own them (almost zero), I'm at a bit of a loss in terms of what to look at getting. Any thoughts?
Stainless steel Walther PPK will be a good choice.

[Ray Pina]

It is the person and how he trains, not the style. However, very often the style dictates how one trains.

I have trained and competed in Karate. I have trained and competed in Kung Fu. The competing allows you to see the standard, the average.

I am now training and competing in MMA. I have to say, my training is now very focused on basics.... controlling the clinch. Pummeling for position. Finding throws from that position. How to remain on my feet to finish after a throw. How to finish following someone down. How to find control and position to finish from unfortunate positions where I am on my back.

That is the grappling aspect.

Then there is the hand and foot work.

Everything is trained against resistance always. There are no forms.

Personally, I think MMA stylists are training themselves to handle other fighters who are training at a high level of fitness and specialization. Often I hear TMA folks saying they don't need to train like that, that it's not realistic for them.

Maybe that's true. But as martial artist I feel you should prepare for the best common denominator, not the lowest.

Life moves forward. Times change. Evolution occurs.

Many Kung Fu traits, such as extending arms to seek a connection, can be dangerous. Not saying they don't work, just that people don't fight the same way they did five years go, never mind 5,000 years ago.

So one has to decide if they want to be a modern, relevant martial artists or keeper of the old classics. Both are fine. But they shouldn't be confused. And guns are part of that. a .45 works better than a kwan do for home evasion.... though both can work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally, I think MMA stylists are training themselves to handle other fighters who are training at a high level of fitness and specialization. Often I hear TMA folks saying they don't need to train like that, that it's not realistic for them.

Maybe that's true. But as martial artist I feel you should prepare for the best common denominator, not the lowest.

very well said Ray.
Personally I tend to train for the worse case scenario: a 6 ft 6in beast that is 290 lbs and can fight !
( Note: I had a training partner like that for a couple of years, it was an eye opener that caused me to re-evaluate all my MA training till then).

[SPJ]

for personal safety on the street.

1. never walk along, travel with several people in a group, outnumber your opponent

2. weapon speaks louder, yes.

1. there was an old tale, when one police came and wanted to investigate a crime in a big mansion, he was ignored.

2. so he came back with several policemen with him, but the mansion was guarded with more people with staffs, they were professional home guards

3. finally, the police chief requested the use of red people cannon, or hong yi da pao. dutch and western people are with red hairs, so western or dutch cannon.

the home guards all ran away, so the chief may enter the mansion and investigate.

actually, it still works today such as with counter terrorist tactics.

you outnumber the opponent and with a better weapon of destruction

:D

[Ray Pina]

I had a training partner like that for a couple of years, it was an eye opener that caused me to re-evaluate all my MA training till then.

Likewise, I there was a guy training with my internal master who drove into NYC from Philadelphia. He was almost 400 lbs but could throw a head-high roundhouse with crisp, speed. Very hard to deal with someone like that. His arms were like my legs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Likewise, I there was a guy training with my internal master who drove into NYC from Philadelphia. He was almost 400 lbs but could throw a head-high roundhouse with crisp, speed. Very hard to deal with someone like that. His arms were like my legs.

You got that right !
You learn very quickly that, in the real world of fighting, the only thing that cancels out size is the ability to inflict damage, and lots of it !

[Old Noob]

You forgot

6. Run away;)

You're right. Won't claim that it never happened. If the numbers are bad and you got the speed...

[eomonroe00]

ah, reminds me of a lesson from the book , the scarlet letter, the difference between appearance and reality,