why do we never hear about iron palm guys getting in trouble with the law?

[golden arhat]

if they are so devastating

why do we never see anyone get really badly injured from fighting IP guys ?

do they not get in fights like everyone else??


i'd like to see some human data on iron palm

[IronWeasel]

if they are so devastating

why do we never see anyone get really badly injured from fighting IP guys ?

do they not get in fights like everyone else??


i'd like to see some human data on iron palm



You mean...do they get in fights on campy MMA reality shows on TV for us all to see? Prolly not. Too deadly.

[golden arhat]

no i dont mean that


i'd just like to see what iron palm training does to peoples internal organs

[taai gihk yahn]

no i dont mean that


i'd just like to see what iron palm training does to peoples internal organs

probably about the same thing that a trained boxers fist would...

[Golden Arms]

I know a cop that slapped a guy and broke his jaw, he trained IP. If you train it for real it works just fine, just like how a Muay Thai kick works in some ways. If you want some data, go find someone that has trained it and volunteer to trade shots, you will find out pretty quickly if they are the real deal. Its pretty simple.

[EarthDragon]

Ive trained iron palm for many years... I have been in fights all my life but the fact is you get in the same trouble if you punch someone in the lip or you break thier ribs.. its assult.
the only thing that can be argued if you are sued in a court of law if it goes that far is that you are trained professionally or your a proven to be a professional firghter and you didnt use resonable force to defend yourself. you resulted in excessive force...I hope this answers your question

[Eddie]

isnt iron palm just one aspect of training? so the practitioner would be a martial arts player that happens to also condition his palms regularly?

[sanjuro_ronin]

if they are so devastating

why do we never see anyone get really badly injured from fighting IP guys ?

do they not get in fights like everyone else??


i'd like to see some human data on iron palm

In the website I used to frequent, I had some info on the IP training I did, including info on before and after X-rays and such.
In a nutshell:
IO training causes an increase in the bone density of the hand, making for a more "unyielding" strike.

[Ray Pina]

Anyone can break someone's jaw with a good slap.

I have trained Iron Palm, found it useful and am actually starting up the practice again. Iron Palm is simply the name given to a training method. The method I studied consisted of one very dense bag on a table (hard as a rock), two bags slightly less dense hung on each side of me and one hung in the middle.

Back hand slap the table bag with the left, come down with the right palm. Same side back hands the side bag while opposite side hand palm strikes it. Repeat on the opposite side bag and then six chain punches to the center hanging bag.

You do that, relaxed, training letting the weight of the arm create force, for 15 or 20 minutes. Then Jow the $hit out of your hands because they will be beyond sore. They'll be numb and swollen.

It conditions your hands (probably needlessly for most) while training relaxed hitting (which could be trained in an easier and healthy manner).

I would never try to break coconuts or something like that because I know couldn't do it.

Anyway, seems like some Kung Fu guys have made money and a reputation off of it. Why not, seems like the thing to do. Walk in a circle... sell it. Crouch up and down while waving your hands.... sell it. Bang your hands numb.... sell it.

[Dale Dugas]

Ray,

it sounds like you are training bit much if you hands are going numb, a slight tingle is one thing, numbness is not what you want.

Be careful as you can cause nerve damage over time with improper training.

[Golden Arms]

I echo Dales word of warning on the way you are training Ray, but to each their own.

How many jaws have you broken, especially open handed?

[TenTigers]

I think we know of ONE IP guy that was busted for kid touching. Is that what you were referring to?
This should probably be posted on the B.G. thread, though....

[IronWeasel]

I think we know of ONE IP guy that was busted for kid touching. Is that what you were referring to?
This should probably be posted on the B.G. thread, though....



...a different kind of organ damage altogether...:eek:

[EarthDragon]

10 tigers,
Brian Grey in court was found totally innocent of all the charges. this mans reputaiton was slandered becuse of these BS false rumors.

Ray,
please look for proper instruction when training iron plam as other like Dale Duglas a well know IP practionor and breaker has said you are doing it incorrectly.
their are several nerve endings in the tips of the fingers which lead directly to the eyes and vision...... be careful.

I was taught that you just let gravity take over and drop the hand with no force when you begin...

[taai gihk yahn]

their are several nerve endings in the tips of the fingers which lead directly to the eyes and vision...... be careful.
I am unfamiliar with this concept anatomically; could you describe the specific neural pathways you are referring to?

[EarthDragon]

Well its not easy to explain simply but I will try..

the arm absolute (Yin) meridain is controllling sex... erections, sperm count, etc etc
this meridain also controls circulation. mainly the eyes from the shihhsaun points, the endings of the flanges (finger tips) when damaged from repititive things like striking, these signals are deadend thus side effect is shown in the vision and sperm count levels loss of erection etc etc. I hope this explains as i tried to keep it short and simple to understand.

[taai gihk yahn]

Well its not easy to explain simply but I will try..

the arm absolute (Yin) meridain is controllling sex... erections, sperm count, etc etc
this meridain also controls circulation. mainly the eyes from the shihhsaun points, the endings of the flanges (finger tips) when damaged from repititive things like striking, these signals are deadend thus side effect is shown in the vision and sperm count levels loss of erection etc etc. I hope this explains as i tried to keep it short and simple to understand.

you are describing meridian pathways which are not the same as neural pathways; you said that the there are "nerve endings" in the finger tips that lead directly to the eyes; anatomically, I know of no such connections, and, having a little bit of experience in this area, was wondering what I was missing; also, what studies specifically have been conducted that have demonstrated both changes in visual acuity as well as decreased sperm count as the result of trauma to the distal phalanges? or is this an anecdotal clinical observation?

[bawang]

if they are so devastating

why do we never see anyone get really badly injured from fighting IP guys ?

do they not get in fights like everyone else??


i'd like to see some human data on iron palm


iron sand palm just makes u have thick heavy hands, it doesnt make you a good fighter, that depends on u
i saw muay thai fight on tv where the loser was knocked out bleeding from the ears, eyes, mouth, anyone who is good conditioned can badly hurt you

if your hand is two times heavier your punch is two times stronger

[TenTigers]

what studies specifically have been conducted that have demonstrated both changes in visual acuity as well as decreased sperm count as the result of trauma to the distal phalanges? or is this an anecdotal clinical observation?

well, my Dad told me, "Son, if you keep doing that, you'll go blind."
I said, "Dad-I'm over here."

[golden arhat]

emo kid?

well someone obviously doesnt know what i look like :rolleyes:

[Dale Dugas]

what do you look like?

Post up a photo

[taai gihk yahn]

well, my Dad told me, "Son, if you keep doing that, you'll go blind."
I said, "Dad-I'm over here."

I used to ask my parents if I could just do it until I needed glasses...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't train the fingers on the IP bag, simple because finger strikes are not part of my aresenal, BUT I did hear about the whole "bad vision" thing also.
I have also heard of concerns about training the left hand, because of heart issues.
Don't know the validity of these claims, just things you hear about.

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't train the fingers on the IP bag, simple because finger strikes are not part of my aresenal, BUT I did hear about the whole "bad vision" thing also.
personally, I have a hard time buying it, because AFAIK there is no anatomical basis for it, regardless of what meridian theory might claim; and AFAIK is no extant reliable valid research to support it, suggesting that it is anecdotal in nature; meaning for example that someone who trained IP could have had visual deficits occurr at some point following initiation of training and they or someone else attributed it to that training; unfortunately, that is full of methodological holes on a number of levels;


I have also heard of concerns about training the left hand, because of heart issues.
the heart sits pretty much in midline, w/bias of the lower part towards the left; no reason for that to have any impact on what hand one trains; OTOH, it's a well established fact that using the arms places more demands on cardiac function than does using the legs;


Don't know the validity of these claims, just things you hear about.
exactly, and over time they become "truth"

[bakxierboxer]

I don't train the fingers on the IP bag, simple because finger strikes are not part of my aresenal, BUT I did hear about the whole "bad vision" thing also.

FWIW...
In hindsight.......
My first TCMA SiFu did IP, although he didn't discuss it at all.
He was good enough that he could "call" the board or brick he would break in a stack of them.
Another "trick" he pulled when I was present was to whack a stack of bricks.... and "nothing happened"... he walked off telling me to "get them out of the way". I moved to comply and touched the stack... it collapsed. All the bricks were cleanly broken.
Of course, the faint mist of brick dust drifting down from the stack should have "clued me in".

I believe he also conditioned his fingertips... based on his flicking/poking me in the stomach while slouched back in a chair. The pain was intense... so intense that I doubled over and didn't straighten up for about 5 minutes.

As for finger-conditioning affecting the eyes....
He had surgery for cataracts.



I have also heard of concerns about training the left hand, because of heart issues.
Don't know the validity of these claims, just things you hear about.

He died at the age of 50 from a heart attack.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FWIW...
In hindsight.......
My first TCMA SiFu did IP, although he didn't discuss it at all.
He was good enough that he could "call" the board or brick he would break in a stack of them.
Another "trick" he pulled when I was present was to whack a stack of bricks.... and "nothing happened"... he walked off telling me to "get them out of the way". I moved to comply and touched the stack... it collapsed. All the bricks were cleanly broken.
Of course, the faint mist of brick dust drifting down from the stack should have "clued me in".

I believe he also conditioned his fingertips... based on his flicking/poking me in the stomach while slouched back in a chair. The pain was intense... so intense that I doubled over and didn't straighten up for about 5 minutes.

As for finger-conditioning affecting the eyes....
He had surgery for cataracts.




He died at the age of 50 from a heart attack.

I recall you mentioned him, a loss for the MA world.

[Drake]

So, if your hand gets cut off, you'll go blind?

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE]the heart sits pretty much in midline, w/bias of the lower part towards the left; no reason for that to have any impact on what hand one trains; OTOH, it's a well established fact that using the arms places more demands on cardiac function than does using the legs;
[QUOTE]

It may have come about based on the fact that your left arm is effected when you have a heart attack.

[Drake]

[QUOTE]the heart sits pretty much in midline, w/bias of the lower part towards the left; no reason for that to have any impact on what hand one trains; OTOH, it's a well established fact that using the arms places more demands on cardiac function than does using the legs;
[QUOTE]

It may have come about based on the fact that your left arm is effected when you have a heart attack.

From medhelp.org....

"The way the body is wired together, the nerves sometimes get confused where the source of pain originates. Pain radiating down the left arm during a heart attack is coming form the heart, but the body perceives it as originating from the arm."

[Drake]

From madsci.org...

Often a painful area of the body is not site of the reason for that pain. This is called referred pain. Referred pain is very common. It's defined as pain perceived in another area, often far from the origin. Pain down the inside of the left arm and forearm when a person suffers a heart attack is a common example. Other examples of referred pain include:
# the diaphragm referring pain to the shoulder and neck.
# the stomach referring pain to the upper spine.
# the kidney referring pain to the groin area.
# the gall bladder referring pain on the top of the right shoulder.
# a problem in the throat may be referred to the ear.

Although related to messages sent by the nervous system telling the brain what area hurts, the reasons for referred pain are not completely known. What's important is the fact that when there's pain in these (and other) areas, it may indicate a hidden problem in some other part of the body.


This is some interesting stuff, actually...

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;908929][QUOTE]the heart sits pretty much in midline, w/bias of the lower part towards the left; no reason for that to have any impact on what hand one trains; OTOH, it's a well established fact that using the arms places more demands on cardiac function than does using the legs;


From medhelp.org....

"The way the body is wired together, the nerves sometimes get confused where the source of pain originates. Pain radiating down the left arm during a heart attack is coming form the heart, but the body perceives it as originating from the arm."

Your point?

[Drake]

[QUOTE=Drake;908932][QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;908929]

Your point?

The point is that your nerve endings aren't firing from your left arm. It's your body being confused about which nerve endings are firing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;908935][QUOTE=Drake;908932]

The point is that your nerve endings aren't firing from your left arm. It's your body being confused about which nerve endings are firing.

Yes, we know that NOW, but you can see where the conclusion may have come from, that is the point.

[Drake]

Absolutely. I didn't even know this until a few minutes ago, when I started browsing med journals.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Absolutely. I didn't even know this until a few minutes ago, when I started browsing med journals.

I think its called "aboherrent refernce" or something like that.

[bakxierboxer]

I recall you mentioned him, a loss for the MA world.

I thought so.
He was a genuinely "nice guy"... in a "tough as nails" kinda way.
Other than his "reticence" re IP, he was "generous to a fault" with his MA knowledge and connections.
(at least with me)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought so.
He was a genuinely "nice guy"... in a "tough as nails" kinda way.
Other than his "reticence" re IP, he was "generous to a fault" with his MA knowledge and connections.
(at least with me)

I saw a pic of him in a kajukenbo book, looked like a pleasant fellow, with that dangerous hidden side that most old times seem to possess.

[Drake]

Did this guy ever countersue for the damage done to his reputation?

[bakxierboxer]

I saw a pic of him in a kajukenbo book, looked like a pleasant fellow, with that dangerous hidden side that most old times seem to possess.

He also very definitely knew how to "party"......
(ok, that may have been the "Islander" part of him)

[golden arhat]

what do you look like?

Post up a photo

www.myspace.com/chenzhenfromjingwu

[sanjuro_ronin]

www.myspace.com/chenzhenfromjingwu

You guys exchanging pics?
:eek:
Isn't that how things start?
LOL !

[golden arhat]

You guys exchanging pics?
:eek:
Isn't that how things start?
LOL !

you bet

always had a thing for skinheads ;)

LOLL

[sanjuro_ronin]

you bet

always had a thing for skinheads ;)

LOLL

Kids...



Drake From madsci.org...

Often a painful area of the body is not site of the reason for that pain. This is called referred pain. Referred pain is very common. It's defined as pain perceived in another area, often far from the origin. Pain down the inside of the left arm and forearm when a person suffers a heart attack is a common example. Other examples of referred pain include:
# the diaphragm referring pain to the shoulder and neck.
# the stomach referring pain to the upper spine.
# the kidney referring pain to the groin area.
# the gall bladder referring pain on the top of the right shoulder.
# a problem in the throat may be referred to the ear.

Although related to messages sent by the nervous system telling the brain what area hurts, the reasons for referred pain are not completely known. What's important is the fact that when there's pain in these (and other) areas, it may indicate a hidden problem in some other part of the body.


This is some interesting stuff, actually...

Which also goes to explain some views of Dim Mak.