What is Chi Sao?

[stonecrusher69]

...............

[Hardwork108]

A favorite topic of interest of mine hope you like it..


What is Chi Sao?


In the Fut Sao Wing Chun system, Chi Sao or Sticking Hands practice is not treated as simply a drill or sensitivity exercise as performed by some of the other Wing Chun lineages. In Fut Sao, the practice of Chi Sao, is treated and is equivalent to close quarter fighting. The skills one learns in Chi Sao practice will bring the practitioner to a higher level of development in his art. When one trains in Chi Sao one is not simply practicing a purely physical art but something that is also energy oriented and spiritual as well. When one concentrates on drills or applications one can clearly see that the practice becomes purely a physical and limits development in other areas. As one progresses in Chi Sao, one comes to realize it is not all about fighting but rather knowing yourself and your opponent. When one has reached a high level of proficiency in Chi Sao, the practice of simple drills and applications has almost no functionality. When practicing Chi Sao at such a high level all applications become possible. As mentioned earlier, if one just trains applications and drills he is only training the physical and not the energy side of the art which has no application yet is contained in all applications.

I hear all the time people say, "if your attacked on the street no one will Chi Sao you." Of course they will not Chi Sao you as Chi Sao is a way of training and an attack on your life is another matter. It seems to me people do not really understand the purpose of Chi Sao training, but something one has to realize is what one does in ones training is designed to build and develop real skills which can be applied at will. Chi Sao gives one the means necessary to reach that level of skill of which I am writing of. When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight. One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you've learned has any real value. Chi Sao is about control. If I can control myself and my partner during Chi Sao training then I know I have already won and do not need to go any further. In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I'll have survived or not. There is no playing; there are no points as seen in Chi Sao competitions.

Another point a lot of people seem to believe is that Chi Sao is merely "the rolling of the hands". Simply put, Chi Sao is not in the rolling, the contact point or the ability to always stick to the bridge. This brings me to another point, that Chi Sao "is not about always sticking or chasing the hand". It's not, as mentioned earlier it's about control. Chi Sao is found in any type of attack and the defense that one deploys in a real fight scenario. Chi Sao does not have to look a certain way. Again, the essence of Chi Sao is about control. Therefore, if I can control myself and your actions I'm using Chi Sao. WCK is very much based on maintaining a bridge which is conducive to Chi Sao training. Chi Sao training has many advantages over sparring. Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point. As sparring is also a good way to test and develop one's skills it is not the preferred way in Fut Sao Wing Chun system. Since Wing Chun is about controlled infighting it makes sense to use Chi Sao as a platform to test ones skills. Staying close and maintaining a bridge has an advantage over sparring where contact is lost. For a Wing Chun practitioner to be able to maintain a bridge is to his advantage while to someone like a boxer it is not. In fighting arts like Muay Thai or Western Boxing the idea of controlling the bridge is not part of the training, so Chi Sao is not needed for these types of arts. The advantage when you train with your partner in Chi Sao is that one does not need to gear-up as it is very safe to train granted that one has control. In sparring you must gear-up as there is no control and the idea is to pummel the opponent or score points as in point fighting. In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit. On the other hand, in sparring this is not possible one must hit the opponent. For beginners, psychologically, sparring can have negative effects due to the fear of being hit, and can ultimately affect their confidence and martial arts development.



--
Sifu Michael Mc Ilwrath

Well said, thank you.:)

In our/lineage school the constant training of chi sao (including kum na) eventually leads to sparring.

The skills in the applications of the principles are learnt and perfected in chi sao so that in the eventual sparring one does not "forget" nor move away from the art in favor of perhaps hopping (a la boxer or TKD) in and out of the range of the bridge.

[t_niehoff]

A favorite topic of interest of mine hope you like it..

What is Chi Sao?


In my view, it is a flexible, unrealistic platform for teaching/learning certain attached fighting skills (WCK movements). It is also a drill that has taken on a life of its own and is given much greater significance than it merits.



In the Fut Sao Wing Chun system, Chi Sao or Sticking Hands practice is not treated as simply a drill or sensitivity exercise as performed by some of the other Wing Chun lineages. In Fut Sao, the practice of Chi Sao, is treated and is equivalent to close quarter fighting. The skills one learns in Chi Sao practice will bring the practitioner to a higher level of development in his art. When one trains in Chi Sao one is not simply practicing a purely physical art but something that is also energy oriented and spiritual as well.


In my view, as WCK is an attached fighting method, it is only common sense that its movements would be learned/taught in an attached platform. Anything we do involves "energy". But chi sao is no more "energy oriented" than any other contact activity. Nor is it "spiritual". I think when people begin thinking in terms of "energy" and "spirituality" they are lost.



When one concentrates on drills or applications one can clearly see that the practice becomes purely a physical and limits development in other areas. As one progresses in Chi Sao, one comes to realize it is not all about fighting but rather knowing yourself and your opponent. When one has reached a high level of proficiency in Chi Sao, the practice of simple drills and applications has almost no functionality. When practicing Chi Sao at such a high level all applications become possible. As mentioned earlier, if one just trains applications and drills he is only training the physical and not the energy side of the art which has no application yet is contained in all applications.


No one learns "applications" in chi sao (rather what they learn is what they believe will work in fighting); application is fighting -- it is using your WCK movement/skills while actually fighting. Chi sao isn't fighting, so there is no application nor can there be. You may be "practicing" the movements of WCK, but not in their "proper" context.



I hear all the time people say, "if your attacked on the street no one will Chi Sao you." Of course they will not Chi Sao you as Chi Sao is a way of training and an attack on your life is another matter. It seems to me people do not really understand the purpose of Chi Sao training, but something one has to realize is what one does in ones training is designed to build and develop real skills which can be applied at will. Chi Sao gives one the means necessary to reach that level of skill of which I am writing of. When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight. One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you've learned has any real value. Chi Sao is about control. If I can control myself and my partner during Chi Sao training then I know I have already won and do not need to go any further. In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I'll have survived or not. There is no playing; there are no points as seen in Chi Sao competitions.


Fighting skills only come from fighting -- not from chi sao. Chi sao teaches you the contact movements/skills of WCK. It's like riding the bike with the training wheels on -- you do that to learn but you can do that forever and you won't be able to ride the bike. Developing skill in riding the bike only begins once you take off the training wheels.



Another point a lot of people seem to believe is that Chi Sao is merely "the rolling of the hands". Simply put, Chi Sao is not in the rolling, the contact point or the ability to always stick to the bridge. This brings me to another point, that Chi Sao "is not about always sticking or chasing the hand". It's not, as mentioned earlier it's about control. Chi Sao is found in any type of attack and the defense that one deploys in a real fight scenario. Chi Sao does not have to look a certain way. Again, the essence of Chi Sao is about control. Therefore, if I can control myself and your actions I'm using Chi Sao. WCK is very much based on maintaining a bridge which is conducive to Chi Sao training. Chi Sao training has many advantages over sparring. Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point. As sparring is also a good way to test and develop one's skills it is not the preferred way in Fut Sao Wing Chun system. Since Wing Chun is about controlled infighting it makes sense to use Chi Sao as a platform to test ones skills. Staying close and maintaining a bridge has an advantage over sparring where contact is lost. For a Wing Chun practitioner to be able to maintain a bridge is to his advantage while to someone like a boxer it is not. In fighting arts like Muay Thai or Western Boxing the idea of controlling the bridge is not part of the training, so Chi Sao is not needed for these types of arts. The advantage when you train with your partner in Chi Sao is that one does not need to gear-up as it is very safe to train granted that one has control. In sparring you must gear-up as there is no control and the idea is to pummel the opponent or score points as in point fighting. In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit. On the other hand, in sparring this is not possible one must hit the opponent. For beginners, psychologically, sparring can have negative effects due to the fear of being hit, and can ultimately affect their confidence and martial arts development.


As I see it, the method/approach of WCK is to control while striking an opponent. Chi sao can be used as a platform to teach the movement/skills needed to do that. The limitation of chi sao is that it is unrealistic -- it doesn't correspond to how an opponent will really behave (move, act, intensity, etc.) in fighting. And that's because, in part, your chi sao partner is doing chi sao, using WCK movements in certain prescribed ways. If you have any doubts about this, just get someone who isn't a WCK practitioner, start "in contact" and tell them to fight with you. You'll see it ain't nothin' like chi sao. :)

If you do this, you'll also see that you won't be able to make your attached fighting skills work. And that's because you've never taken the training wheels off and tried to ride the bike.

In my view, once we learn the movement/skills of chi sao and can perform them consistently and comfortably, then to continue doing chi sao is simply wasting time -- it's continuing to ride around with the training wheels on. At that point, to develop any further, you need to take the training wheels off, to start fighting while attached to an opponent. Chi sao is beginner-level WCK -- just as riding around with the training wheels on is beginner-level bicycle riding.

[JPinAZ]

I totally disagree with the previous post. Chi Sau is all about fighting. I think the misconception is that 'chi sau' has to start with 2 people facing each other in 'contact' on both hands and from rolling. That's just one part of bridge training, but it's far from limited to that.

How we approach chi sau is just the opposite. Students first start within the Kiu Sau modules and almost none of the training starts with any contact. Everything starts from pre-contact and then an attack is thrown, a bridge is found, etc - just like in fighting. The students are learning how to engage with their opponent, which has to happen before they can learn to stick with them, destroy their structure or bridges, etc. This is training to fight, not to roll with our opponent in a set platform. Now, I also feel Taan/Bong/Fook rolling platform is important and has merit too (and is about fighting as well). But that timeframe can only happen after the engagement and only with a certain distance and facing.

It was said "If you have any doubts about this, just get someone who isn't a WCK practitioner, start "in contact" and tell them to fight with you. You'll see it ain't nothin' like chi sao". I think I see the point, but IMO this shows the poster only looks at chi sau training as taan/bong/fook, dui ying, 2 hands already engaged rolling platform. From my experience this is where the training culminates/end, not begins. A fight typically starts from the outside and works it's way in, and that's where we start our 'chi sau training'.

JP

[stonecrusher69]

.................................

[t_niehoff]

As I see it, WCK is an attached fighting method: we want to get attached and fight from there.

So, in a sense, we can see WCK as having 2 parts: getting an attached position and then using the attached position.

As I see it, chi sao (sticky hands) is a platform to learn/teach the movements/skills pertaining to the latter as it is an attached drill (which is much, much more than tan, bong, fook and rolling). If you aren't attached, there can be no "sticky hands". As I learned it, the former (getting an attached position) was called "dap sao" or "joining hands" (more accurately 'riding hands'). Since we want to join in ways that will facilitate our control, it makes sense to first learn the controlling (attached) aspect and then how to get there. Otherwise, you may find that you join in ways that are disadvantageous.

Once again, however, chi sao and dap sao are learning/teaching platforms -- they are riding the bike with the trianing wheels on. They are not realistic platforms and you don't develop realistic skills from those drills/platforms. Skill and the corresponding understanding/knowledge only begins once you remove the traiing wheels.

[t_niehoff]

First of all you have never seen or know How I do Chi Sao,so you don't know what your talking about. Fighting while attached is what we do.We do not chi sao with the training wheels on as you put it.Again you've never seen me chi sao so you have no idea.And I have trained many times with guys who do not know WCK or Chi Sao and they use their stuff and I use WCK and it works fine. If you can't make your stufff work then you have had poor instruction,and from reading your my post it's very clear you have no idea about WC and certainly Chi Sao.

It doesn't matter how you "do" chi sao. Chi sao is WCK with the training wheels on regardless of how you do it. It's with the training wheels on since your partner is not -- and cannot within the parameters of chi sao -- behaving like someone who is really fighting you. If they did behave that way, they would be really fighitng you! So it is by its very nature unrealistic. And you can't develop realistic skills through unrealistic practice (in large part because you are not receiving realistic intensity, actions, attacks, etc. from your partner to work and practice against, thereby not learning and developing how to deal with those things).

FWIW, people make claims all the time (I've used my stuff and it really works). Claims are empty without evidence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chi Sao reminds me a lot of clinch drills that are done in MT and wrestling, the difference being that THOSE drills are almost identical to the practical application of them within the relm that they will be used.
They start off in a position that will happen competition ( for example) and they work within that context.
They are drills chi sao is viewed as a drill to and put within that category, it works well enough at that certain stage.
But the issue becomes, truly, the start position and everyone basically does it that same way and we will never start ANYTHING that way, will we?

[Hardwork108]

First of all you have never seen or know How I do Chi Sao,so you don't know what your talking about. Fighting while attached is what we do.We do not chi sao with the training wheels on as you put it.Again you've never seen me chi sao so you have no idea.And I have trained many times with guys who do not know WCK or Chi Sao and they use their stuff and I use WCK and it works fine. If you can't make your stufff work then you have had poor instruction,and from reading your my post it's very clear you have no idea about WC and certainly Chi Sao.

Good post and I couldn´t have put it better myself!:)

I would like to add that I also disagree with T_niehoff´s statement regarding Chi Sao being a beginner´s exercise. This shows a lack of understanding and appreciation of the scope of chi sao.

At one level chi sao is a type of sensitivity and softness training and that IMHO is an eternal quest as one always will need to improve those aspects.

As far as the fighting aspect is concerned chi sao can be as realistic as you make it as it is very easy to escelate to a San Sao mode when one desires so (and is able to).

[stonecrusher69]

Good post and I couldn´t have put it better myself!:)

I would like to add that I also disagree with T_niehoff´s statement regarding Chi Sao being a beginner´s exercise. This shows a lack of understanding and appreciation of the scope of chi sao.

At one level chi sao is a type of sensitivity and softness training and that IMHO is an eternal quest as one always will need to improve those aspects.

As far as the fighting aspect is concerned chi sao can be as realistic as you make it as it is very easy to escelate to a San Sao mode when one desires so (and is able to).

Exactly..it's nice to hear someone has some common sense..

[Knifefighter]

Chi Sao gives one the means necessary to reach that level of skill of which I am writing of. When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight.

Chi sao is nothing like a fight. The skill you will learn will be that of chi sao, not fighting.



One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you've learned has any real value.

The fact is, if you want to be good, you have to have experience of both giving and taking significant amounts of damage. The guy who has never had his world rocked in training is the guy who will fold quickly on the street.


In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I'll have survived or not.

LOL... very few fights end with one move. Even a knife attack usually takes more than one move.


Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point.

Because that is the way that real fighting happens.


In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit.

Actually getting hit is a significant part of what makes someone a better fighter.

[Knifefighter]

First of all you have never seen or know How I do Chi Sao,so you don't know what your talking about. Fighting while attached is what we do.We do not chi sao with the training wheels on as you put it.Again you've never seen me chi sao so you have no idea.And I have trained many times with guys who do not know WCK or Chi Sao and they use their stuff and I use WCK and it works fine. If you can't make your stufff work then you have had poor instruction,and from reading your my post it's very clear you have no idea about WC and certainly Chi Sao.

In these days of ubiquitous You Tube videos, it should be easy to post a clip so he can see how you chi sao.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think we are getting off track here and making this personal.
The thread is about "what is chi sao" not who has the "REAL chi sao.
I think where people get separated in their views is to the degree of importance of chi sao over everything else in WC.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you don't meet with me. I won't bother posting as you are wasting my time. If you7 think you can fight then fight me..I'm waiting.

While T and sometimes KF posts get on nerves at times, usually when they make a blanket statement or over generalize, fighting them won't prove anything.

I don't like Floyd Mayweather Jr's pad work, in fact I think it stinkes, but he would kick my ass all over the place.
Yet I have fought guys at the local boxing gym that do pad work like that and I have beaten all 3 , 2 ending in a "KO".
None of that proves anything other than Flyod can kick my ass and I kicked the ass of 3 boxers.

[Liddel]

Stonecrusher i love Chi sau, but ive only got to this POV through balancing it with sparring which is a must IMO if your looking to be a good VT fighter.

They both give the trainee skills you cant attain anyother way IMHO.

Moreover CS and sparring can both be trained at any level of intensity and have more similarites than some may care to admit.

I do believe though that sparring has more to offer in reagrd to attaining actual fighting skill than CS does. But conversly i dont believe one can be a good VT fighter without having good CS skills.

To me a VT fighter needs pleanty of both... and generally speaking the average person should get good at CS first then intergrate sparring into thier training so as to adhere to VT ways..because lets face it VT has actions so foreign to everyday body behavior as well as mental behavior you need to drill that in up front.

Lets not get stuck into advocating one training method only. The whole idea of Chi Sau is to let things go and use what appears maintaining personal control.

A far cry from staunching up on an oppinion and making d i c k h e a d challenges.

DREW

[stonecrusher69]

...................................

[t_niehoff]

Sparring is fine..Options are good to have.

It's much more than an "option", particularly if your objective is to develop fighting skill.

I find it amazing that in the 21st century, with all the science, evidence, resources, etc. available, many people still don't -- or won't -- grasp that unrealistic training (including forms, chi sao, etc.) doesn't and can't produce realistic fighting skills (at least to any significant degree). That to develop fighting skills we need to train like fighters do -- which means, quite simply, fighting: putting in loads of time realistically sparring with quality opponents. And, that our fighting skill (performance) level will directly correspond to the amount of quality sparring we've done (little quality sparring produces little skill, greater amounts of quality sparring produces greater amounts of skill).

[JPinAZ]

Curious T, do you train Chi Sau when you teach WC? How do you teach WC if the training tools and methods are so outdated? And sorry, sparring alone doesn't cut it..

[t_niehoff]

Curious T, do you train Chi Sau when you teach WC? How do you teach WC if the training tools and methods are so outdated? And sorry, sparring alone doesn't cut it..

If you read my posts on this thread, I think you'd see your question is already answered. I could just point you to my first post which answers your question, but to simplify it for you:

Chi sao "is a flexible, unrealistic platform for teaching/learning certain attached fighting skills (WCK movements)."

But "fighting skills only come from fighting -- not from chi sao. Chi sao teaches you the contact movements/skills of WCK. It's like riding the bike with the training wheels on -- you do that to learn but you can do that forever and you won't be able to ride the bike."

"Chi sao can be used as a platform to teach the movement/skills needed to do that. The limitation of chi sao is that it is unrealistic -- it doesn't correspond to how an opponent will really behave (move, act, intensity, etc.) in fighting. And that's because, in part, your chi sao partner is doing chi sao, using WCK movements in certain prescribed ways."

"In my view, once we learn the movement/skills of chi sao and can perform them consistently and comfortably, then to continue doing chi sao is simply wasting time -- it's continuing to ride around with the training wheels on. At that point, to develop any further, you need to take the training wheels off, to start fighting while attached to an opponent. Chi sao is beginner-level WCK -- just as riding around with the training wheels on is beginner-level bicycle riding."

[JPinAZ]

I think I understand. You use Chi Sau (as the rolling platform) only for beginners to build a certain skill set unrealistically then put it to the test realistically in sparring. At this point you disregard the trianing method.
What this tells me is you only view chi sau from the idea of a rolling platform, and not as a real fighting skill set. I think this is why you can't see what others here are saying - that chi sau is all about fighting throught one's trianing.

From my view, it's not just for beginers, but something that should be worked on throughout one's entire progress. Even in boxing, once you learn your basic punches, you don't stop drlling them and only use them in sparring. But of course, I'm not talking about just the tann/bong/fook, "1, 2, 3 roll!" type of training. Chi sau is a whole lot more than that.
Is it safe to assume your understanding of chi sau could be limited to just this?

[t_niehoff]

I think I understand. You use Chi Sau (as the rolling platform) only for beginners to build a certain skill set unrealistically then put it to the test realistically in sparring. At this point you disregard the trianing method.
What this tells me is you only view chi sau from the idea of a rolling platform, and not as a real fighting skill set. I think this is why you can't see what others here are saying - that chi sau is all about fighting throught one's trianing.


No, you don't understand what I am saying at all. Chi sao, no matter how you do it or what platform you use, is BY ITS VERY NATURE AN UNREALISTIC EXERCISE in that it is not realistic (it doesn't correspond to what really happens in a fight) -- as your partner is not behaving like someone who is really (hell-bent on) fighting you. As your partner isn't providing you with realistic behaviors, pressures, attacks, defenses, etc., you can't develop realistic skills to deal with those sorts of things.

This is not to say the exercise is worthless. Like any unrealistic exercise, it permits you to learn skills. But THESE ARE NOT FIGHTING SKILLS. THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING SKILLS UNTIL THEY CAN BE USED SUCCESSFULLY AND CONSISTENTLY IN FIGHTING. If you can't make X work in fighitng, it can hardly be called a fighting skill, can it?

So, for avery simple example, while you can LEARN a bong-lop da in the chi sao platform, the ability to perform it in chi sao in no way indicates you can do it in fighting. And until you can do it in fighting, successfully and consistently, it hasn't been developed into a fighting skill.

The only way to develop a fighting skill is by and through fighting. Realistic skills come from realistic training -- not from unrealistic training.

Someone who can perform a bong-lop da in chi sao consistently and successfully has learned the skill. But it is not a fighting skill. More chi sao won't develop their bong-lop da into a fighting skill, no matter how long they continue to practice it in chi sao. At that point, they need to leave chi sao behind them and start training that skill realistically -- in sparring.



From my view, it's not just for beginers, but something that should be worked on throughout one's entire progress. Even in boxing, once you learn your basic punches, you don't stop drlling them and only use them in sparring. But of course, I'm not talking about just the tann/bong/fook, "1, 2, 3 roll!" type of training. Chi sau is a whole lot more than that.
Is it safe to assume your understanding of chi sau could be limited to just this?

I don't know where your notion that I'm talking about tan/bong/fook and rolling. Chi sao is a flexible platform and that is just one aspect of the platform.

I am not saying that you won't or shouldn't continue to practice the basics -- just that how you practice those basics will need to change. Cyclists continue to practice the basics of riding the bike even after they leave the training wheels behind. :)

[Iron-Man]

Mr T i quite enjoyed your last post, normally you sound like a stuck record but this time it sounded ok ........is it me or did i detect a glint of Humility ?

[chisauking]

Chisau is many things to many people. How it’s trained is down to the comprehension & skill level of the individual. Another way to see chisau is that of a tool – a tool to bring out your wing chun fighting attributes. But, as any tradesman can tell you, a tool – any tool – is only as effective as the competence of its user.

One may or may not believe in the benefits of chisau, but people have to question one’s motive for constantly criticizing and belittling others for practicing something which they believe and enjoy doing. Look in the mirror and ask oneself if your own training methods are any more effective & efficient? Where’s the results to prove your methods are better in a ‘real fight’ than the people who you constantly mock?

As far as realism goes, it’s ridiculous to say chisau isn’t anything like ‘fighting’. The intensity of chisau is only as realistic as the skill level of the practitioners, and the attributes acquired through chisau can certainly be used in real combat. Further more, 99.9% of all training – regardless whether it’s wing chun, BJJ, MT, etc., isn’t realistic anyway, since your partner isn’t intent on injuring you using all means possible, unlike in a real fight. If people think training is ‘fighting’, then they are seriously deluding themselves. No matter how hard you may ‘spar’, you are still only theorizing real combat, since you have left out so many variables of real combat. Only fighting is fighting. If you think your training is fighting and resembles true fighting, and you fight on a ‘regular’ basis, then it should be easy to show. Just post some of your many ‘fights’ for us to see. If you are not B5hitting, it would be easy to comply with this request, right?

Chisau is probably one of the single-most misunderstood aspect of the wing chun system – that’s why after 30-years’ plus in open teaching in the west, people are still ‘guessing’ what chisau is. They say, ‘chisau is over-rated and must be supported with sparring’. Well, as any good wing chun teacher will tell you, gwoh-sau within chisau training is ‘sparring’, and that ‘sparring’ can take on any form or shape, without prior contact, using as much intensity as the practitioners are capable of. How can one not know chisau is a form of sparring after so many years?

Before one criticizes others for their actions, one must first understand that person’s intent. To the Chinese, the combative aspects of all martial arts are but a minor part of the goal; it’s a means to an end, and not the end itself. It’s a formula for self-betterment and to maximise one’s potential – not just on a physical level, but on a mental level as well. If your only intention in learning martial arts is for fighting, then you have your reasons very wrong. It would be far easier & more economical to learn how to use the magnum or AK47. Then, no one on earth can win you using bare hands.

In my experiences, people only have 2 main reasons to constantly put others down:
1) They are bitter and envious individuals, consumed with hatred and jealousy. 2) They have other ulterior motives and personal agendas to promote.

happy training

[Knifefighter]

As far as realism goes, it’s ridiculous to say chisau isn’t anything like ‘fighting’. The intensity of chisau is only as realistic as the skill level of the practitioners, and the attributes acquired through chisau can certainly be used in real combat. Further more, 99.9% of all training – regardless whether it’s wing chun, BJJ, MT, etc., isn’t realistic anyway, since your partner isn’t intent on injuring you using all means possible, unlike in a real fight. If people think training is ‘fighting’, then they are seriously deluding themselves. No matter how hard you may ‘spar’, you are still only theorizing real combat, since you have left out so many variables of real combat. Only fighting is fighting.
You are right... but some forms of training are closer to fighting than are others. Having someone trying to hit you in the face, throw you onto the ground and choke you until you either tap out or slide into unconsciousness is much closer to real fighting that facing a partner and doing steering wheel driving while slapping each other in the chest.


It would be far easier & more economical to learn how to use the magnum or AK47.
Not if you can't walk around with one of those all the time.


In my experiences, people only have 2 main reasons to constantly put others down:
1) They are bitter and envious individuals, consumed with hatred and jealousy. 2) They have other ulterior motives and personal agendas to promote.

Or maybe they just debate their opinions on a discussion forum.

[stonecrusher69]

................................

[Knifefighter]

This is only true if you limit your Chi Sao to WCK movements or train with only WCK people. Like I said in my other posts I train with NON WCK people they use there stuff and I use mine. The end results is the same. Whether I use a rolling platform of we suare off it's the same.Once in contact range I use Chi Sao. Chi sao is omly limited if you limited in the first place.

As you stated in your first post, you are only working in contact range and you are controlling your hitting. Both of these are unrealistic in terms of developing actual fighting ability.

[stonecrusher69]

...................................

[Knifefighter]

Like I said in my other posts I train with NON WCK people they use there stuff and I use mine. The end results is the same. Whether I use a rolling platform of we suare off it's the same.Once in contact range I use Chi Sao. Chi sao is omly limited if you limited in the first place.

If you are regularly doing that, it should be nothing to post a clip or two.

You did post a treatise on how chi sao is related to fighting. It would make sense to want to see some actual evidence that you at least have some experience in what you are proclaiming.

Of course you would have to be actually doing that in the first place, which anyone who has half a clue knows is not happening.

[Hardwork108]

It's much more than an "option", particularly if your objective is to develop fighting skill.

I find it amazing that in the 21st century, with all the science, evidence, resources, etc. available, many people still don't -- or won't -- grasp that unrealistic training (including forms, chi sao, etc.) doesn't and can't produce realistic fighting skills (at least to any significant degree). That to develop fighting skills we need to train like fighters do -- which means, quite simply, fighting: putting in loads of time realistically sparring with quality opponents. And, that our fighting skill (performance) level will directly correspond to the amount of quality sparring we've done (little quality sparring produces little skill, greater amounts of quality sparring produces greater amounts of skill).


Yet I have met traditional sifus who have good real (not sports!) fight histories. I honestly believe that you (as well as many others of the MMA persuasion) have missed and are not aware of important aspects of traditional training. What you train is not Wing Chun nor kung fu it IS MMA and any references to kung fu should be coincindental when you are posting.

This is not to say that what you are doing is not good as it seems to be working for you and many others, only that the assumptions you make about any shortcomings of the traditional kung fu way are INCORRECT, as you yourself don´t seem to have dedicated enough time and training to have built enough understanding (thus credibility) to make valid criticisms.

You only see the dimension that you understand within your limited (if any) exposure to traditional kung fu. So you (who has apparently never fought and defeated kung fu expert in your life) making such generelized criticisms regarding the combat effectiveness of this enchant fighting art is something very offensive to those who bother to dedicate the time and effort to explore the richness and the real essence of TCMAs.

[Vajramusti]

Good post!

Joy Chaudhuri

[stonecrusher69]

...............................

[Knifefighter]

Where is your clip? you ask for a clip from me but I've never seen anything but lip service from you and T. Forget about a clip that proves nothing only hands on proves.So come and fight me.I'm waiting.

My clips have been up for a long time. Post yours and I'll post the link to mine again.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight. One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you've learned has any real value. Chi Sao is about control. If I can control myself and my partner during Chi Sao training then I know I have already won and do not need to go any further. In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I'll have survived or not." (stonecrusher/Michael)


***THERE were/are numerous wing chun instructors through the years who have fed these kinds of ideas to their students - and they are EXTREMELY misleading. It won't necessarily "be over quick" in a real fight - because the fact is you haven't "already won" if you have some sort of momentary control over the opponent - since control means nothing if you don't also put a hurtin' on the guy. And the whole idea of "survival" that you espouse is some serious kool aid that you've ingested. How many one punch knockouts have you ever seen in a real fight? It's very rare.

.................................................


"WCK is very much based on maintaining a bridge which is conducive to Chi Sao training. Chi Sao training has many advantages over sparring. Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point. As sparring is also a good way to test and develop one's skills it is not the preferred way in Fut Sao Wing Chun system. Since Wing Chun is about controlled infighting it makes sense to use Chi Sao as a platform to test ones skills. Staying close and maintaining a bridge has an advantage over sparring where contact is lost. For a Wing Chun practitioner to be able to maintain a bridge is to his advantage while to someone like a boxer it is not." (stonecrusher/Michael)


***AGAIN, the assumptions made here have no foundation in reality fighting. Getting close enough to actually "bridge" without getting hit, kicked, kneed, or elbowed is what one learns by beginning one's sparring from a non contact distance.

............................................


"In fighting arts like Muay Thai or Western Boxing the idea of controlling the bridge is not part of the training, so Chi Sao is not needed for these types of arts." (stonecrusher/Michael)

***OF COURSE it's part of their training - because bridging is more than simply having a limb-to-limb contact starting point...as in "bridging the gap". And boxers and Thai boxers are very good at this.

.............................................

"The advantage when you train with your partner in Chi Sao is that one does not need to gear-up as it is very safe to train granted that one has control. In sparring you must gear-up as there is no control and the idea is to pummel the opponent or score points as in point fighting. In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit. On the other hand, in sparring this is not possible one must hit the opponent. For beginners, psychologically, sparring can have negative effects due to the fear of being hit, and can ultimately affect their confidence and martial arts development."


***BEEN doing wing chun for almost 34 years - and have been full contact sparring with gear for about 30 of those years. And I'm telling you straight up, that without contact sparring there is no real mastery ever to be achieved in actual fighting - multiplied many times over if your opponent has real skills of his own that go beyond the basic haymaker-throwing guy on the street.

And yes, students can be introduced to hitting and getting hit in a gradual, but steady process - as long as the instructor takes the time work with them in a progressive manner...thereby helping to greatly reduce (if not completely eliminate) the the fear factor - by adding more speed, power, and advanced techniques into the mix as they're ready for it...and as long as he's monitoring the sparring with gear between the students themselves in the same manner.

..........................................

ALL THAT SAID, of course chi sao is extremely important for developing and maintaining wing chun skills - and yes, training to work the "fight" from a limb-to-limb contact point is VERY advantageous. But that's only one part of the skills that are needed in order to be a good fighter - including what might happen once one gets to contact bridging range.

Wing chun is NOT the end all and be all in this range - as a clinch could be gotten in a heartbeat by a skilled and determined fighter. It could go either way - which is why skills in close quarter striking (ie.- arts like wing chun, close quarter styles of boxing, Thai boxing clinching with the use of elbow and knee strikes, etc.)...ALSO need to be supplemented with some sort of wrestling/grappling skills.

As well as being able to move/strike/block/kick etc. from a longer non-contact distance.

Fighting is all of the above...and until people get that (ie.- the majority of wing chun people, for example) - their fighting skills will be lacking.

[Knifefighter]

How many one punch knockouts have you ever seen in a real fight? It's very rare.

But he "knows" he could do that if he was ever in a real fight because he has slapped people's chest before.

[Liddel]

Yeah i liked ChiSau Kings post too Joy....


In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I'll have survived or not.

Dude for perspective ill just say that i got sucker punched (after about one years training in VT, im at 13 today) i saw black for a split second then before i could open my eyes the follow up punch of the attacker landed bang on my nose and broke it :eek:

The fight wasnt over, it just pi$$ed me off !

Ive also seen guys get stomped heads into concrete heard the reverb through the pavement and he got up and continued the fight - no $ h i t.

Kinda blurs those lines of what you think are the limits in fighting IMHO.

DREW

[Sihing73]

Hello,

FWIW I have a scar on my head from getting hit with a 40 bottle. Split my head, I did not even fall down. I saw red and don't even remember kicking the crap out of the guy. I tell people that Wing Chun went out the window. ;)

I went to the ER to get stitches the next day because it would'nt stop bleeding. Dr tried to give me a lecture about coming in sooner :rolleyes:

Not trying to prove I'm tough, I almost cried when I saw Marley and Me :o

Just pointing out you cannot depend on someone staying down no matter what you hit them with, plenty of stats will show guys getting shot multiple times yet they survive and thier attacker does'nt.

Look up Guadalcanal, forgive my spelling, for accounts of people surviving real life battle injuries which most of us would never have anything to complare to.....

How does this relate to Chi Sau? Again, do not expect everything that works in practice to work in real life.

[Hendrik]

what is Chi Sao?

Chi Sao is communicating via touch sense with awareness as the master.

(by passed mind, by passed thought.)

[bennyvt]

I remember when I first went to HK and one of the schools we went to said to my teacher," your guys are hitting after my guys get a shot." he said" yeh, so" the guys idea was that they had "got" us so we should stop. In our lineage we think one of the main points to chi sao is how to get back from being hit or controlled. Its not a "I got a shot so I win" thing. I get hit, hit back as soon as possible.
About how safe chi sao is. You must not chi sao properly if that the case. I have had my eye split open (by a good bong sao when I stepped in without my hands up), black eyes, poked in the eye up to the first knuckle twice, Split lips etc and concussion for three days (in bed throwing up) when I was training with Barry cause I thought he was throwing me then punching to show I shouldnt lose contact, but he was throwing me to test my stance and thought I was attacking him coming back in.). I have seen my senior put a teacher from another schools tooth through his cheeck as he thought he could block it. The idea is when you start its good to be slow and gentle but chi sao should be full power, you dont block you get knocked out. The whole idea of constant forward pressure is to strike befoe your brain has time to pull it up (which is a natural instinct to hitting others).
As far as needing to spar to be able to fight. I dont think this is right. Sparing is good to learn how to bridge the gap and such but I feel that Iif you know the person well and both understand the need you should just fight. Sparring is a game of tag that VT sucks at. Like normally the punch comes if I punch with a step his attack will fly up and away. In sparing I dont step so I dont hurt them too much and the punch hits me.
While I would rather chi sao I dont mind sparing but I dont use gear I just dont go full force.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Sparring is a game of tag that VT sucks at.” (bennyvt)

***FULL contact sparring with (or without) gear is not a game of tag. It's real, and it hurts - and it encompasses having to know more about fighting than starting from chi sao position does.

.................................


"Like normally the punch comes if I punch with a step his attack will fly up and away. In sparring I dont step so I dont hurt them too much and the punch hits me. (bennyvt)


***MAKES no sense. Why would you pull your punches in sparring but not in chi sao?

.................................


"While I would rather chi sao I dont mind sparring but I dont use gear I just dont go full force." (bennyvt)


***OKAY, so you're willing to risk injuries instead of bumps and bruises. But that doesn't change anything about what's being discussed here: ie.- fighting from all ranges instead of just from limb-to-limb contact chi sao range.

.........................................


"The idea is when you start its good to be slow and gentle but chi sao should be full power, you dont block you get knocked out." (bennyvt)


***HEY, guess what? The same thing can happen when you spar - except that sparring entails having to train more than just working from chi sao range. Beginning to see a pattern here?

..............................................


"The whole idea of constant forward pressure is to strike before your brain has time to pull it up (which is a natural instinct to hitting others)." (bennyvt)


***WITHOUT even debating your opinion vs. my opinion on the efficiency of the ALWAYS use the "constant forward pressure" approach, (psst, sometimes it's better to back up a bit or sidestep)...nonetheless...again...we can walk and chew gum, can't we?

Start the fight/sparring from long range (ie.- non contact range)...and then use your forward pressure when it's appropriate.

[Knifefighter]

Just pointing out you cannot depend on someone staying down no matter what you hit them with, plenty of stats will show guys getting shot multiple times yet they survive and thier attacker does'nt.

How does this relate to Chi Sau? Again, do not expect everything that works in practice to work in real life.

Anyone with half a clue about real world encounters would never post something as ludicrous as stating that a fight is going to be over in a split second. It's obvious that someone who would state that has never been in a single second of a real life encounter himself.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . As far as needing to spar to be able to fight. I dont think this is right.
It's definitely the best way.




. . . . Sparring is a game of tag that VT sucks at.
Not at all WC/VT/WT schools.



While I would rather chi sao I dont mind sparing but I dont use gear I just dont go full force.
That can cause a problem with perception.

[bennyvt]

sparing I thought by definition meant to train with each other at either not full force or with gear on. I think gear give you a false sense of security and sparing too much can cause this. Sparing when in a vt sense it should not stop after the punch is conected so if you are chain punching at full force then I would tend to class that as fighting. This can be against a friend or any other person. I think it mainly comes down to your idea of sparing. Every sparing session I have seen be it VT, boxing, kickboxing etc has been more about tagging your opponent then finishing the fight. Sparing can be usefull but really I think just get togeather with a few people and punch on. thats how you learn to fight. Chi sao, sparing drills can teach you stuff are all are limited to certain areas.My teacher used to always say when he was asked about sparing. We jump up and down at the start of class, we punch the bag so its like just hitting someone that doesn't hit back and we do chi sao for the hard part, when he actually blocks you or you block cant turn into a strike, we just practice the instance thousands of time in a short period of time due to not losing contact. I am not saying sparing doesn't teach you things but to say that you have to spar to be able to fight I dont feel is right. As I said I dont class sparing as going full force with all you r techniques that would be more applicable to gor sao or just fighting.And I didnt read anything about fighting at all ranges, I read that you have to spar to be able to fight or it is better then chi sao. I am saying better to fight in a safe environment to teach you how to fight.
Constant forward pressure was refering to your hands, yes we step back but our hands are still pushing forward. Constant pressure doesn't only mean just go forward that would be stupid. they would just wait step to side and hit us. It was only the arms that are constantly putting pressure towards the centre so when the moment comes you hand shoots forward before you brain takes the time to realise then it can be controlled slightly on the way forward.

[Liddel]

I can only speak from my own experience but im sure it would apply to others -

My Sifu would Gor Sau Lux Sau etc all day long. At training they never 'sparred' as the platform we know today- it was the VT platform of sparring.

GM Ip told my Sifu he needed 3 fights before he could be Lok Yiu's assitant.

However they were fighting for real with other schools...

Regardless if 50% or 90% of it was no head shots - it was fightin.

Today most schools dont do this - they dont go to other schools and ask to fight for real. I dont, i visited and touched hands and sparred but never fought.

So IMO a practitioner of any style must have sparring or go fight other schools.

This is why i spar in training and out with buddies of other styles.

Both serve the same purpose in ones training IME.

DREW

[Knifefighter]

Regardless if 50% or 90% of it was no head shots - it was fightin.

If there are no head shots allowed, it is not fighting.

[Knifefighter]

About how safe chi sao is. You must not chi sao properly if that the case. I have had my eye split open (by a good bong sao when I stepped in without my hands up), black eyes, poked in the eye up to the first knuckle twice, Split lips etc and concussion for three days (in bed throwing up) when I was training with Barry cause I thought he was throwing me then punching to show I shouldnt lose contact, but he was throwing me to test my stance and thought I was attacking him coming back in.). I have seen my senior put a teacher from another schools tooth through his cheeck as he thought he could block it. The idea is when you start its good to be slow and gentle but chi sao should be full power, you dont block you get knocked out. The whole idea of constant forward pressure is to strike befoe your brain has time to pull it up (which is a natural instinct to hitting others).

Please post a clip of this full contact with head shots chi sao that you are supposedly doing. Of course, I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen.

[taojkd]

It's definitely the best way.

Not at all WC/VT/WT schools.

That can cause a problem with perception.

So how about sparring, but in chi sao you dont "spar"? Just use it as a drill for refinement by only throwing a couple of set attacks you want to clean up FOR sparring.

[t_niehoff]

Chisau is many things to many people. How it’s trained is down to the comprehension & skill level of the individual. Another way to see chisau is that of a tool – a tool to bring out your wing chun fighting attributes. But, as any tradesman can tell you, a tool – any tool – is only as effective as the competence of its user.


This is what many people want to believe but it simply isn't true. Chi sao is an unrealistic exercise (doesn't correspond to what actually happens in fighting) and so can't by its very nature develop fighting skills regardless of how you do it or use it.



One may or may not believe in the benefits of chisau,


It shouldn't be a matter of belief but rather of evidence.



but people have to question one’s motive for constantly criticizing and belittling others for practicing something which they believe and enjoy doing. Look in the mirror and ask oneself if your own training methods are any more effective & efficient? Where’s the results to prove your methods are better in a ‘real fight’ than the people who you constantly mock?


I'm not "belittling" anyone for doing forms or chi sao for the enjoyment of them. If someone enjoys doing something, then by all means do it. But whether or not these things develop any significant FIGHTING skills is a horse of a different color.

In this particular case, someone posted their thoughts on chi sao. I disagree and posted my reasons for disagreement.



As far as realism goes, it’s ridiculous to say chisau isn’t anything like ‘fighting’. The intensity of chisau is only as realistic as the skill level of the practitioners, and the attributes acquired through chisau can certainly be used in real combat. Further more, 99.9% of all training – regardless whether it’s wing chun, BJJ, MT, etc., isn’t realistic anyway, since your partner isn’t intent on injuring you using all means possible, unlike in a real fight. If people think training is ‘fighting’, then they are seriously deluding themselves. No matter how hard you may ‘spar’, you are still only theorizing real combat, since you have left out so many variables of real combat. Only fighting is fighting. If you think your training is fighting and resembles true fighting, and you fight on a ‘regular’ basis, then it should be easy to show. Just post some of your many ‘fights’ for us to see. If you are not B5hitting, it would be easy to comply with this request, right?


Chi sao is nothing like fighting, regardless of the "skill level of the practitioners." All it takes to see this for yourself is to get in contact and fight (and anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't fought). People doing chi sao are not behaving llike they do in fighting; if they were, it would be called fighting,not chi sao! Chi sao is an unrealistic exercise that permits you to use the tools of WCK in a nonfighting environment so that you can learn and develop the tools in a contact situation. But as you are not facing someone who is really fighting you, you can't learn or develop the ability to use those tools in a fighting environment (where the intensity, the movement, the attacks, the defenses, etc. are different than in chi sao).

You can't see that from a video of someone else; you need to EXPERIENCE IT FOR YOURSELF. People who won't give themselves the experience will never see it. If you want to experience it, the easiest way is just to get a partner (best if he isn't a wing chun guy) who has some decent attributes, gear up, begin in contact and really fight with him. Tell him to really try to knock your head off, to get in and take you down, etc. You'll see that looks and feels nothing like chi sao. And you'll see that your chi sao will not have prepared you for that.

Of course, you could prove me wrong by fighting like and showing that you can successfully and consistently use your chi sao skills.




Chisau is probably one of the single-most misunderstood aspect of the wing chun system – that’s why after 30-years’ plus in open teaching in the west, people are still ‘guessing’ what chisau is. They say, ‘chisau is over-rated and must be supported with sparring’. Well, as any good wing chun teacher will tell you, gwoh-sau within chisau training is ‘sparring’, and that ‘sparring’ can take on any form or shape, without prior contact, using as much intensity as the practitioners are capable of. How can one not know chisau is a form of sparring after so many years?


You're right, it is misunderstood. And that's because people are not fighting (in contact).

Here's the thing, you can say it is fighting and I can say it's not, but the answer isn't found on a forum -- the only meaningful answer (or meaningful discussion for that matter) is found "on the mat", "in the ring", etc. In other words, in the fight itself. If you believe chi sao is fighting and develops fighting skills, then it should be easy to go fight with some nonWCK people and do in fighitng what you practice doing in chi sao, right? Well, the only way to KNOW is by doing that, right?



Before one criticizes others for their actions, one must first understand that person’s intent. To the Chinese, the combative aspects of all martial arts are but a minor part of the goal; it’s a means to an end, and not the end itself. It’s a formula for self-betterment and to maximise one’s potential – not just on a physical level, but on a mental level as well. If your only intention in learning martial arts is for fighting, then you have your reasons very wrong. It would be far easier & more economical to learn how to use the magnum or AK47. Then, no one on earth can win you using bare hands.


I think all of that is pure BS. Are you concerned with developing fighting skills or not? If not, then none of this discussion over teaching/training methods matters. In that case, do whatever you please. But if you are concerned about developing fighting skill, then it does matter -- in fact, it's critical. Poor training methods don't help anyone towards "self-betterment"; nor does self-deception.



In my experiences, people only have 2 main reasons to constantly put others down:
1) They are bitter and envious individuals, consumed with hatred and jealousy. 2) They have other ulterior motives and personal agendas to promote.

happy training

I'll tell you my motivation: I wish that someone had told me these things 20 years ago as it would have saved me a lot of time, effort, money, etc. For years, I believed many of the same things you do, took what I will call "the conventional wisdom" in WCK as true, etc.

[Iron-Man]

Chisau is probably one of the single-most misunderstood aspect of the wing chun system – that’s why after 30-years’ plus in open teaching in the west, people are still ‘guessing’ what chisau is. They say, ‘chisau is over-rated and must be supported with sparring’. Well, as any good wing chun teacher will tell you, gwoh-sau within chisau training is ‘sparring’, and that ‘sparring’ can take on any form or shape, without prior contact, using as much intensity as the practitioners are capable of. How can one not know chisau is a form of sparring after so many years?

Before one criticizes others for their actions, one must first understand that person’s intent. To the Chinese, the combative aspects of all martial arts are but a minor part of the goal; it’s a means to an end, and not the end itself. It’s a formula for self-betterment and to maximise one’s potential – not just on a physical level, but on a mental level as well. If your only intention in learning martial arts is for fighting, then you have your reasons very wrong. It would be far easier & more economical to learn how to use the magnum or AK47. Then, no one on earth can win you using bare hands.

happy training

Some of the best Wing Chun fighters have come from the West so cut the pathetic East/West we are better Sh*t.........the fact is the only one guessing is you otherwise we would be watching you and your clan demonstrating how it should really work on You Tube !

And for the record i have chisau in the east both in Hong kong and China at the Yip man tong opening and without bragging no one i played whipped my a** ........i guess they were all holding back !!!

Oh dont tell me next that only your clan understands real chi sau and that the whole of asia has got it wrong or hiding it until they really need it in a life-death fight !!!

Many proffessional MMA are great guys with good heart and temperment and probably some of the nicest people you will meet.............dont give us the bull about spiritual fighting...........it either works or it doesn't and whether you are as a result, a nice spiritual guy is neither here or there. How many famous Ving Tsun masters do you know who come from the east that are truly enlightened ? if it were the case then why the ridiculous politics that that is a trademark of Hong Kong VT.

[Liddel]

If there are no head shots allowed, it is not fighting.

True, but my point to those that dont spar is that VT in HK years ago had fighting as part of the training but they didnt spar.
Nowadays people dont spar nor do they go out and fight.

Like i said to progress (at least for my techer) you had to have three real fights.

So those that dont have sparring as part of thier regular VT training must have either one or the other - sparring or fighting - to be halfway decent. both are best IME.

IMO fighting with no head shots and protective gear is effectively hard sparring...

DREW

[t_niehoff]

True, but my point to those that dont spar is that VT in HK years ago had fighting as part of the training but they didnt spar.
Nowadays people dont spar nor do they go out and fight.

Like i said to progress (at least for my techer) you had to have three real fights.

So those that dont have sparring as part of thier regular VT training must have either one or the other - sparring or fighting - to be halfway decent. both are best IME.

IMO fighting with no head shots and protective gear is effectively hard sparring...

DREW

A couple of points:

I agree with you that traditionally fighting was an expected part of training if one intended to develop fighting skill. This, however, only underscores the problem -- that the main learning/teaching approach in TCMA was divorced from fighting in the first place (as opposedto having fighting/sparring as the core of the training). Moreover, the fighting that the traditional guys did was typically very little and not with quality opponents, so their development would not have been that significant.

To develop any significant level of fighting skill you NEED much, much more than "three real fights" to make progress. Your progress will correspond to the amount of quality sparring/fighting you do. To just develop a blue belt level of skill in BJJ typically takes hundreds of hours of "real sparring". Three "real ground fights" isn't going to give you much in the way of skill.

And the issue isn't simply what is or is not "hard sparring" (as some people go"hard" in chi sao too) but rather what is realistic sparring -- realistic insofar as what is going on in the sparring corresponds (in intensity, in what your opponent is doing, etc.) to fighting. Realistic fighting skills come from realistic training, not from unrealistic training.

[Liddel]

I agree with you that traditionally fighting was an expected part of training if one intended to develop fighting skill. This, however, only underscores the problem -- that the main learning/teaching approach in TCMA was divorced from fighting in the first place

I understand where your comming form T. I will say though i dont think it was divorced from fighting in the sence that - VT training methods and techs fit the bill and served a great purpose for fighting the popular methods of the times...all be it other TCMA's LOL

I mean they did mix it up with other styles, they were constantly fighting each other....

The times have changed though and so must the training IMO, so your point has more relevance today than back then if you see where im comming from.



To develop any significant level of fighting skill you NEED much, much more than "three real fights" to make progress.

I agree and in my teachers case (and his peers at the time) the fighitng didnt end there, it was just the beginning.

In my own experience the more i fought and sparred at higher intensities the more precence of mind ive gained during a fight not even touching on improved ability...thats what experience does IMO.



And the issue isn't simply what is or is not "hard sparring" (as some people go"hard" in chi sao too) but rather what is realistic sparring -- realistic insofar as what is going on in the sparring corresponds (in intensity, in what your opponent is doing, etc.) to fighting. Realistic fighting skills come from realistic training, not from unrealistic training.

I very much agree and have only really understood this in the last 7 odd years of training in VT :) I tend not to drop aspects of my VT though i have just added things to suppliment what i see as the shortcommings of realism in my own training, thats all one can do really.

First and foremost, regular sparring.

DREW

[chusauli]

Chi Sao is:

- Getting a sense of an opponent in front of you
- Learning to put your bridges in inside/outside position
- experimenting with your movements
- learning to coordinate the body with the bridges
- to develop some confidence
- a way for insiders to compare skills without getting hurt

I've written more here:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_chisao.html

Best regards,

[t_niehoff]

Chi Sao is:

- Getting a sense of an opponent in front of you
- Learning to put your bridges in inside/outside position
- experimenting with your movements
- learning to coordinate the body with the bridges
- to develop some confidence
- a way for insiders to compare skills without getting hurt

I've written more here:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_chisao.html

Best regards,

Chi sao is a learning/teaching platform for contact skills -- in particular, the WCK tools. As far as confidence goes, that IMO is part of the problem with unrealistic drills: they give people vastly over-inflated ideas of their skill level (not to mention false notions of fighting, etc.). So the confidence one gets from chi sao is IMO a false confidence.

And it does permit people to compare skills, the only problem is that these aren't fighting skills or fighting attributes.

The best metaphor I've heard so far (thanks, Nick!) is that chi sao is riding the bicycle with the training wheels on. That will acquaint one with the skills (steering, peddling, braking, etc.) of riding in an unrealistic way (since you don't need to deal with falling off the bike). But those aren't really bike-riding skills until you take off the training wheels. Will riding around with the training wheels on give you confidence? Can you use it to compare skills? Should we have training-wheel bicycle races? ;)

For me, you really can't compare bike riding skills until you take off the training wheels and really ride the bike -- as riding the bike is the target activity, and taking off the wheels changes everything. It's the same with chi sao -- you can learn the movement/tools of WCK, you just can't learn or develop your ability to use them in fighting through chi sao. Fighting changes everything.

[taai gihk yahn]

not to say whether chi sao (or push hands, or rolling hands or spinning hands, etc.) is "valid" or not for fighting, but if nothing else it is valuable in terms of "reprogramming" one's flinch response; in other words, you learn to stay "in the box" and how to respond under pressure; again, not saying if it's the be-all end-all, but there is no question that there is value to this type of training; I think like anything, one can use it or abuse it - the question is does one stay in one's comfort zone or continually try to move into "dark territory"?

[t_niehoff]

not to say whether chi sao (or push hands, or rolling hands or spinning hands, etc.) is "valid" or not for fighting,


All anyone needs to do is get in contact ("in the box") and fight to find out. After all, the only way to see whether or training methods are working for us or not is by doing the target skill (what we are training for), right?



but if nothing else it is valuable in terms of "reprogramming" one's flinch response; in other words, you learn to stay "in the box" and how to respond under pressure;


The problem is that you are "reprogramming" -- or we can say "practicing" or "training" -- that "response" not under realistic conditions (conditions that correspond to fighting), so you are not getting realistic cues, dealing with realistic actions by an opponent, etc. In other words, you're "reprogramming" under one set of conditions (unrealistic) and believing that it will transfer to an entirely different set of conditions (realistic). It won't. Chi sao will only develop chi sao reactions, not fighting reactions.



again, not saying if it's the be-all end-all, but there is no question that there is value to this type of training;


The question isn't whether there is value to the exercise, but what precisely is that value. Once you come appreciate that unrealsitic training cannot by its very nature develop realsitic skills (and that ONLY realistic training develops realistic skills), you will realize the place for unrealistic training: as a learning platform.



I think like anything, one can use it or abuse it - the question is does one stay in one's comfort zone or continually try to move into "dark territory"?

Certainly staying in one's comfort zone is a large part of the problem.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best way to reprogram the "flinch response" to getting punched in the face is getting punched in the face.
:D

On a side note, I never had any "flinch response" issues, even before MA, but last year I got my eye surgery and guess what, I do now !
LOL !
Anytime anything comes near my eyes I flinch, my babies !!
LOL !
I had to readjust the response and it was pretty easy in terms of the MA, it was kind of hard wrired in already, but for everyday stuff, like my kids reaching up to my face or when I am play fighting with them and they go for the eyes, I would flinch bigtime, I noticed that outside the "fighting state" was was very "flinchy" in regards to my "new eyes".

[t_niehoff]

As an aside, why did you have surgery? I'm asking because I had surgery (laser) to repair a detached retina last year.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As an aside, why did you have surgery? I'm asking because I had surgery (laser) to repair a detached retina last year.

Vision correction, I was "blind as a bat", LOL.
Now I have 20-20 with both eyes, though my left is still not 100%.

[chusauli]

Chi Sao can be looked at training wheels with a bicycle.

Teaching curriculums have to prepare a student from no experience to being able to handle all out.

TCMA were originally taught over a short period of time - you were introduced to how to issue power, and drills were taught to teach particular skills, you had fixed drills, semi-fixed drills (like Chi Sao or Tui Shou), extracted elements practiced loosely (San Sao) or learned from experience as in Gong Sao. You had your Lien Gung training on sandbags, etc., and eventually, the Faat Mun (System method) made sense to you. There was no long drawn out curriculum...but then a student apprenticed with a master for a period.

A recent article in the Journal of Asian Martial arts stated that the Lei Tai Tournament winners in China during the turn of the Republic (1920's) were actually trained (in Xing Yi) for a period of less than 2 years and compared that period of time comparable to today's MMA training.

I agree Chi Sao is overemphasized today and not realistic to all out fighting, but you gotta start from somewhere.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chi Sao can be looked at training wheels with a bicycle.

Teaching curriculums have to prepare a student from no experience to being able to handle all out.

TCMA were originally taught over a short period of time - you were introduced to how to issue power, and drills were taught to teach particular skills, you had fixed drills, semi-fixed drills (like Chi Sao or Tui Shou), extracted elements practiced loosely (San Sao) or learned from experience as in Gong Sao. You had your Lien Gung training on sandbags, etc., and eventually, the Faat Mun (System method) made sense to you. There was no long drawn out curriculum...but then a student apprenticed with a master for a period.

A recent article in the Journal of Asian Martial arts stated that the Lei Tai Tournament winners in China during the turn of the Republic (1920's) were actually trained (in Xing Yi) for a period of less than 2 years and compared that period of time comparable to today's MMA training.

I agree Chi Sao is overemphasized today and not realistic to all out fighting, but you gotta start from somewhere.

Excellent points.

[JPinAZ]

I think the main issue with this thread is how various people are defining the term 'chi sau'. Some look at it as an unrealistic, cooperative trianing drill, some as a rolling platfomr to train 'tools' and build sensitivity, some as a direct training regiment for specific fighting skills, etc. While each person's opinion counts, I think this makes the conversation difficult since peope are talking from opposite views and understanding of what 'chi sau is'


Chi Sao is:

- Getting a sense of an opponent in front of you
- Learning to put your bridges in inside/outside position
- experimenting with your movements
- learning to coordinate the body with the bridges
- to develop some confidence
- a way for insiders to compare skills without getting hurt

I've written more here:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_chisao.html

Best regards,

As an example, the above quote is one person's view on 'what chi sau is', but it only reflects that one person's understanding and is not the standard definition for all. While I feel that chi sau is the above things, I also know it is much more than just that.

Chi Sau is about engagment, as well as how to deal with bridges once the engagement is created. How to keep someone at a given range, how to shut down thier attempts to grab, strike or controll you while also allowing you to set yourself up in a position to control/strike your opponent. And this type of training directly translates into fighting. How can it not be? Sure, in the early stages, it can start as a more fixed drill to gain the basics, but in the end it opens up into more free form drilling ending in full out sparring. How can that not be about fighting?

Does that make one person 'wrong' and the other 'right'? No, just differnet levels of experience and understanding. Some people's views of chi sau go deeper than others and some view it as training different attributes. And I feel this makes conversations difficult when everyone is coming from a different view of 'what is chi sau'

[Knifefighter]

And this type of training directly translates into fighting. How can it not be?

Because it's not used in fighting.

[t_niehoff]

I think the main issue with this thread is how various people are defining the term 'chi sau'. Some look at it as an unrealistic, cooperative trianing drill, some as a rolling platfomr to train 'tools' and build sensitivity, some as a direct training regiment for specific fighting skills, etc. While each person's opinion counts, I think this makes the conversation difficult since peope are talking from opposite views and understanding of what 'chi sau is'


No one -- and certainly not me -- is defining chi sao as some "rolling platform". Chi sao is an unrealistic exercise. Get it? Unrealistic. It's unrealistic since it doesn't correspond to what really happens in fighting (what is realistic).



As an example, the above quote is one person's view on 'what chi sau is', but it only reflects that one person's understanding and is not the standard definition for all. While I feel that chi sau is the above things, I also know it is much more than just that.


That was not a "definition" but rather some comments Robert was making. Chi sao is an exercise, nothing more.



Chi Sau is about engagment, as well as how to deal with bridges once the engagement is created. How to keep someone at a given range, how to shut down thier attempts to grab, strike or controll you while also allowing you to set yourself up in a position to control/strike your opponent. And this type of training directly translates into fighting. How can it not be? Sure, in the early stages, it can start as a more fixed drill to gain the basics, but in the end it opens up into more free form drilling ending in full out sparring. How can that not be about fighting?


Chi sao is not full-out sparring. If you are full-out sparring, then you are full-out sparring (and not doing chi sao). To do chi sao requires that both people doing the exercise/drill do chi sao, that is, use WCK movements in certain prescribed ways to keep the drill going. Or, do you think you could do chi sao with a muay thai fighter trying to fight you? Moreoever, you are not reallyfighitng when you do chi sao either -- or do you do chi saowhile trying to knock your partner out? Genuinely fighting while in contact looks and feels nothing like chi sao. All you are talking about is ramping up the intensity of chi sao -- and that is not fighting. You can peddle has hard as you like on your bicycle with the training wheels on and it still isn't riding the bike.

People who believe chi sao develops fighting skills or, like you, that it is fighting just have no experience fighting while in contact. If they did, they'd KNOW better.



Does that make one person 'wrong' and the other 'right'? No, just differnet levels of experience and understanding. Some people's views of chi sau go deeper than others and some view it as training different attributes. And I feel this makes conversations difficult when everyone is coming from a different view of 'what is chi sau'

People can believe whatever they like. People can believe, for example, that WCK prepares you for the ground. People believe stuff like that because they don't have any significant experience fighting (especially with good people) on the ground. But they still have their "opinions." But they aren't forming those opinions because they are regularly fighting with good ground guys and seeing their WCK work. ;) It's the same for the people who hold the opinion that chi sao is fighting or develops fighting skills: it's not like they are regualrly fighting with good fighters and seeing that they can do in fighting what they train to do in chi sao as they train to do it.

[m1k3]

Chi Sau is about engagment, as well as how to deal with bridges once the engagement is created. How to keep someone at a given range, how to shut down thier attempts to grab, strike or controll you while also allowing you to set yourself up in a position to control/strike your opponent.

While your opponent is also doing chi sao. That is the point, 2 people are playing under a specific ruleset. What if your opponent is not doing chi sao? How well does your control work if they are not playing your game.

I think this is the point that several people were trying to make about the difference between chi sao and sparring/fighting.

[t_niehoff]

While your opponent is also doing chi sao. That is the point, 2 people are playing under a specific ruleset. What if your opponent is not doing chi sao? How well does your control work if they are not playing your game.

I think this is the point that several people were trying to make about the difference between chi sao and sparring/fighting.

Exactly right.

[punchdrunk]

I agree chi sao is not the same thing as fighting or free sparring however i would say it is a very controlled type of sparring. Also I beleive it is just another method for training just like the mok jong or bong sau lap da drills, its not without its merits just don't confuse it with free fighting. Most systems of ma have different types of sparring to work on specific things and no it doesn't mean they fight that way. Terrence I think your right when you compare it to training wheels.. its not the end all and be all of wing chun and most people focus way too much on it.

[JPinAZ]

While your opponent is also doing chi sao. That is the point, 2 people are playing under a specific ruleset. What if your opponent is not doing chi sao? How well does your control work if they are not playing your game.

I think this is the point that several people were trying to make about the difference between chi sao and sparring/fighting.

My point exactly. Some people view chi sau as only a cooperative rolling platfrom where both people are playing the 'wc guy' and both trying to use chi sau against each other. While I feel this type of training does have it's place, in my experience, this is not the only aspect of chi sau training.

How I train WC, we approach chi sau training (aka - bridge training) in a more live environment with new students right up front. The training starts pre-contact, then into engagement, then neutralizing the attack, setting up position of advantage, dealing with both bridges as necessary, etc. In most cases, the training starts as a response to a general attack (jab, cross, 'wc punch', grab, etc) and has reactions to continued attempts of grabbing, more punching, etc. Both students aren't always cooperating or playing a 'wc guy' to keep things in simple terms. This is exactly what happens in fighting.

Sure, in the start it is more of a fixed drill to get the motions and understanding, but as skill increases, the training wheels are taken off progressively. It then moves into skill challenges, non-fixedf drilling and finally into live energy drillsl, but the focus remains the throughout. So from this perspective, yes, chi sau is for fighting..

FWIW, this is the introduction to over-all chi sau training by focusing on portion of chi sau first: kiu sau. Much different from the traditional sense of tann/bong/fook rolling platform of chi sau. But not every one views chi sau in this sense, so the conversations can get a bit muttled without a common point of reference - which is my whole point: people are arguing form 2 or 3 totally different mind sets.

Some might even say 'chi sau is not for fighting' or that it's 'unrealistic' or even an excersize' over and over and over like a broken record, and from thier POV and experience they are 100 %correct - but not from mine! Maybe their POV is limited to just one aspect of the training, or maybe they haven't seen another's POV - so doesn't make them right in everyone's eyes, no matter how many times they say it. It's not 'reality', just thier reality. And I think others feel the same way. We all have our own understanding of things. Some treat it as excersizing like tai bo or something, and some train it to fight with. To each his own :D

[taai gihk yahn]

All anyone needs to do is get in contact ("in the box") and fight to find out. After all, the only way to see whether or training methods are working for us or not is by doing the target skill (what we are training for), right?

The problem is that you are "reprogramming" -- or we can say "practicing" or "training" -- that "response" not under realistic conditions (conditions that correspond to fighting), so you are not getting realistic cues, dealing with realistic actions by an opponent, etc. In other words, you're "reprogramming" under one set of conditions (unrealistic) and believing that it will transfer to an entirely different set of conditions (realistic). It won't. Chi sao will only develop chi sao reactions, not fighting reactions.

The question isn't whether there is value to the exercise, but what precisely is that value. Once you come appreciate that unrealsitic training cannot by its very nature develop realsitic skills (and that ONLY realistic training develops realistic skills), you will realize the place for unrealistic training: as a learning platform.

Certainly staying in one's comfort zone is a large part of the problem.
it's a matter of degree; motor learning research demonstrates clearly that acquisition of motor skill happens in two distinct phases: an initial one where one "gets the idea" of the movement in question - this phase is best supported by low levels of contextual interference, meaning that the relative randomness / unpredictability level is low (nothing surprising here, of course); the "problem" is that this phase can be relatively short, and that if one stays in it too long, while one's performance of the skill in that context continues to increase significantly, what suffers is retention (being able to recall the skill effectively after a period of non-practice) and, more importantly, transfer (being able to use the skill as such or modify it 'on the fly" in a novel context - this is really the issue in fighting); these two things are achieved optimally under more random conditions, that "force" one to, in a sense, reorient and perform a skill actively each time (as opposed to a rote-like manner); so, chi sau, or similar drills, provides that initial context of "getting the idea" in regards to various parameters in fighting but without making it so random and complicated that initial acquisition is impeded; it's random, but with limited variables, I guess; the trick, as I think we agree, is to figure out when to discontinue that context (as you correctly analogize, it's like training wheels in a way) and move into one where you have even more randomness and less compliance; at the same time, I think one can always go back to it even at an "advanced" level and use it as a platform off of which to develop other attributes and / or try new ideas - sort of a laboratory in a way; and, heck, it's a lot of fun too!

[t_niehoff]

My point exactly. Some people view chi sau as only a cooperative rolling platfrom where both people are playing the 'wc guy' and both trying to use chi sau against each other. While I feel this type of training does have it's place, in my experience, this is not the only aspect of chi sau training.

How I train WC, we approach chi sau training (aka - bridge training) in a more live environment with new students right up front. The training starts pre-contact, then into engagement, then neutralizing the attack, setting up position of advantage, dealing with both bridges as necessary, etc. In most cases, the training starts as a response to a general attack (jab, cross, 'wc punch', grab, etc) and has reactions to continued attempts of grabbing, more punching, etc. Both students aren't always cooperating or playing a 'wc guy' to keep things in simple terms. This is exactly what happens in fighting.

Sure, in the start it is more of a fixed drill to get the motions and understanding, but as skill increases, the training wheels are taken off progressively. It then moves into skill challenges, non-fixedf drilling and finally into live energy drillsl, but the focus remains the throughout. So from this perspective, yes, chi sau is for fighting..

FWIW, this is the introduction to over-all chi sau training by focusing on portion of chi sau first: kiu sau. Much different from the traditional sense of tann/bong/fook rolling platform of chi sau. But not every one views chi sau in this sense, so the conversations can get a bit muttled without a common point of reference - which is my whole point: people are arguing form 2 or 3 totally different mind sets.

Some might even say 'chi sau is not for fighting' or that it's 'unrealistic' or even an excersize' over and over and over like a broken record, and from thier POV and experience they are 100 %correct - but not from mine! Maybe their POV is limited to just one aspect of the training, or maybe they haven't seen another's POV - so doesn't make them right in everyone's eyes, no matter how many times they say it. It's not 'reality', just thier reality. And I think others feel the same way. We all have our own understanding of things. Some treat it as excersizing like tai bo or something, and some train it to fight with. To each his own :D

You wrote (and I emphasized it for clarity) "this is exactly what happens in fighting." No, it's not. That's not ANYTHING like fighting. That you believe so tells me you haven't spent any time fighting. And that's a huge problem. So do yourself a favor, go get some athletic, nonWCK guys, gear up, start in contact, and fight. Have your opponents really try to knock you out -- like they really do in fighting. Have them try to run over you -- like they really do in fighting. Have them try to smother you and take you down -- like they really do in fighting. Have them try to beat you however they can think of -- like they really do in fighting. Because ONLY after you've done that, and done a fair amount of it, will you BEGIN to have a grasp of "exactly what happens in fighting." And until you've done that, you won't and can't have a clue about fighting or training to fight.

[JPinAZ]

I'm talking about a fight starting outside of contact range and you come back with some stupid reply about starting a 'fight' in contact. Sure, some fights may start with contact, but in my years of actually fighting on the street (not in the ring or matt), almost every fight starts in the pre-contact stage, whether with a push, attempt to grab or a strike. Are you now trying to say that no fights start from pre-contact with some form of attack that you can engage?? Have you even been in a real fight? Cause all you're talking is fantasy fu right now..

Another prime example that we are talking from 2 completely different planets is you think fighting 'realistically' starts by first putting on gear and then starting 'in contact'. Again, have you even been in a real fight? by this I mean no rules, no taps, no gear, no calling uncle, mommy, whatever. Being jumped by 3 guys or have someone try to smash your face into the curb? If you want to talk about fighting you should have the experience before you open your yap. You're talking about sparring and calling it fighting. do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

The silliest thing about what you are saying is to start in contact (chi sau range) and have a go. This is exactly where chi sau shines, just at highest intensity level, whether you recognize it or not. People do this all the time. Yet you also say chi sau is unrealistic. I really am beginning to wonder what exactly you were taught when you were learning WC, cause it doesn't sound like you understand even the first thing about it.

[t_niehoff]

I'm talking about a fight starting outside of contact range and you come back with some stupid reply about starting a 'fight' in contact. Sure, some fights may start with contact, but in my years of actually fighting on the street (not in the ring or matt), almost every fight starts in the pre-contact stage, whether with a push, attempt to grab or a strike. Are you now trying to say that no fights start from pre-contact with some form of attack that you can engage?? Have you even been in a real fight? Cause all you're talking is fantasy fu right now..


Chi sao is a contact exercise. CONTACT. Even the name of the drill/exercise -- chi sao or sticking/clinging arms -- tells you that it is a contact drill exercise. So it is for practicing CONTACT skills. Not fighting at a distance. Kickboxers don't need contact drills. So, you are not going to learn or develop any outside, noncontact skills from practicing a contact exercise.

As far as your observations of what really goes on in fighting, you haven't a clue.



Another prime example that we are talking from 2 completely different planets is you think fighting 'realistically' starts by first putting on gear and then starting 'in contact'. Again, have you even been in a real fight? by this I mean no rules, no taps, no gear, no calling uncle, mommy, whatever. Being jumped by 3 guys or have someone try to smash your face into the curb? If you want to talk about fighting you should have the experience before you open your yap. You're talking about sparring and calling it fighting. do you realize how ridiculous you sound?


Of course we're talking from two completely different planets. I've put in literally hundreds of real-time hours fighting/sparring in contact with some skilled fighters and this informs my views whereas you have put in none but have your ideas of what you think it is really like! Talking about a "real fight" is a dead give-away for someone who never fights, doesn't train to fight, and certainly hasn't put in time with good fighters.

Realistic fighting skills come from realistic training. It's realistic if you are training/practicing under fighting conditions. Realistic skills work in any realistic situation, from ring to gym to alley.



The silliest thing about what you are saying is to start in contact (chi sau range) and have a go. This is exactly where chi sau shines, just at highest intensity level, whether you recognize it or not. People do this all the time. Yet you also say chi sau is unrealistic. I really am beginning to wonder what exactly you were taught when you were learning WC, cause it doesn't sound like you understand even the first thing about it.

It's no more silly than saying that if you want to spar/fight with your BJJ to begin on the ground. WCK is an attached (contact) fighting method. So it makes perfect sense to practice fighting in contact. I do realize that getting contact is a part of WCK's method as well, but IME far too often when people start in noncontact/free movement they have a tendency to stay there-- and on the outside all you can effectively do is kickbox. In my view, WCK is not an outside fighitng method (kickboxing).

But even if you don't agree with me, if you have contact fighting skills from chi sao as you allege then starting from contact and fighting should be an advantage for you. Moreover, it will permit you to see whether or not you can do the things in fighting that you practice doing in chi sao. And that was my point -- you won't be able to make what you practice work in fighting as fighting skills come from fighting/realsitic training, not from chi sao.

You can't appreciate this intellectually. The only way to appreciate it is by EXPERIENCE. And if you don't give yourself the experience, you'll never, ever get it. Get yourself some athletic, nonWCK guys, gear up,start in contact, and really fight, full-out, balls-to-the-wall. See for yourself. Only then will you realize that I'm telling you the truth.

[JPinAZ]

You're talking in circles again, just like lawyer. A lot of talk you've said repeatedly. It's clear why you are having a tough time moving on , you're understanding of what WC, chi sau, and it's concepts is so limited you can't see past your own nose. So, you just loop back into general training and sparring methods.
You're still talking sparring and calling it fighting. You say chi sau is underealistic, but then present a sparring platform that directly trains chi sau as many people already do, and think you're talking something new and crazy. I give up on you, you're never going to get it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're talking in circles again, just like lawyer. A lot of talk you've said repeatedly. It's clear why you are having a tough time moving on , you're understanding of what WC, chi sau, and it's concepts is so limited you can't see past your own nose. So, you just loop back into general training and sparring methods.
You're still talking sparring and calling it fighting. You say chi sau is underealistic, but then present a sparring platform that directly trains chi sau as many people already do, and think you're talking something new and crazy. I give up on you, you're never going to get it.

You keep making a distinction between sparring and fighting and obvioulsy there is one, BUT there is a far greater distinction between Chi Sao and fighting.

[m1k3]

As someone who used to train Wing Chun and now trains BJJ I would compare chi sao as a kinder, gentler pummeling drill. I was just a low level chun player but the intensity between them was way different.

Pummeling is a drill that helps you with clinch fighting and head - upper body control. It is a good way for beginners to get introduced to clinch work without having to figure out how to create the bridges or complete process with some sort of take down or throw. It is analogous to grip fighting in Judo or hand fighting in freestyle/folkstyle wrestling. It is hard, strenuous and sometimes mean. It is not fighting or even sparring/rolling as the ruleset for the drill is far to limited.

If I made pummeling the primary sparring tool for my art/sport what I would get is good at pummeling, I would still have major holes in my game. The same goes for chi sao.

[t_niehoff]

You're talking in circles again, just like lawyer. A lot of talk you've said repeatedly. It's clear why you are having a tough time moving on , you're understanding of what WC, chi sau, and it's concepts is so limited you can't see past your own nose. So, you just loop back into general training and sparring methods.


I'm not talking in circles, but I am repeating myself because you don't understand what I am saying. Try to grasp this: no one "understands" WCK, "its concepts", etc. except by and through fighting. You don't come to "understand" any fighting method or its concepts through not fighting -- which includes doing unrealistic drills/exercises. No one sees past their own nose -- past their own EXPERIENCE fighting. That's what informs us. What you are talking about in "seeing past their own nose" is intellectualizing, theorizing.



You're still talking sparring and calling it fighting. You say chi sau is underealistic, but then present a sparring platform that directly trains chi sau as many people already do, and think you're talking something new and crazy. I give up on you, you're never going to get it.

Sparring can be unrealistic or realistic depending on how you do it. If it is realistic, then it corresponds to fighting.

I have not "presented a sparring platform that directly trains chi sao" -- that would be impossible. You seem to be referring to chi sao as something other than the drill/exercise. But it's not, it is a drill/exercise that permits us to learn the contact skills or tools (movements, tactics, etc.) of WCK. While we can learn to perform them in that exercise, chi sao cannot show us how to use those tools in fighting since our partner isn't behaving like he'll really behave in fighting -- he's not doing the things as he will really do them in fighting. He's behaving like someone doing chi sao. So all the setups, entries, etc. for our tools are different. And the only way to see this, and the only way to begin the process of learning and developing how to deal with someone really fighting you, learn the set ups, the entries, etc., for the WCK contact tools is by and through really dealing with someone fighting you in contact. That is not some extension of the chi sao exercise because it will be something completely different (look and feel completely different).

It's ironic that you say I'll never get it considering that you've never put in any significant time fighting. An individual's skill and understanding of WCK is going to be directly related to their personal performance level, and that's determined by the amount of quality sparring/fighting they've done using the WCK tools/methodology. Period.

[JPinAZ]

You keep making a distinction between sparring and fighting and obvioulsy there is one, BUT there is a far greater distinction between Chi Sao and fighting.

I agree with you, there is a distinction betwen chi sau, the drill, and fighting. And I also agree, from some POV, chi sau the drill/rolling platfrom and fighting can have a greater distinction. But that depends on the POV and one's definition of 'chi sau' as I also talked about earlier. It really depends on how one also defines the work 'chi sau'

How I've been taught, chi sau isn't just a taan/bong/fook rolling drill or about training some shapes or sensitivity. As I outlined ealier, it's a lot more than that (from my POV). And the skills directly translate to fighting skills. Even the drills used to build the skill can progressively be trained at high energy and free from - just like in the fight. They can start from pre-contact as well as contact. Involve engaging the opponent, neutralizing, single and 2 arm bridging, how to disengage and re-engage with the opponent, how to handle attempts at grabbing, grappling, striking and also about control! How are all these things not about fighting? :)

Again, I think the issue with the discussion is how people look at the term 'chi sau' and what it means to them. If only looking from thier own POV, sure there is going to be misunderstanding. I'm not only looking at chi sau as just a semi-cooperative rolling platform where both guys are trying to train thier 'wc skills'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with you, there is a distinction betwen chi sau, the drill, and fighting. And I also agree, from some POV, chi sau the drill/rolling platfrom and fighting can have a greater distinction. But that depends on the POV and one's definition of 'chi sau' as I also talked about earlier. It really depends on how one also defines the work 'chi sau'

How I've been taught, chi sau isn't just a taan/bong/fook rolling drill or about training some shapes or sensitivity. As I outlined ealier, it's a lot more than that (from my POV). And the skills directly translate to fighting skills. Even the drills used to build the skill can progressively be trained at high energy and free from - just like in the fight. They can start from pre-contact as well as contact. Involve engaging the opponent, neutralizing, single and 2 arm bridging, how to disengage and re-engage with the opponent, how to handle attempts at grabbing, grappling, striking and also about control! How are all these things not about fighting? :)

Again, I think the issue with the discussion is how people look at the term 'chi sau' and what it means to them. If only looking from thier own POV, sure there is going to be misunderstanding.

So it builds attributes that one can use in fighting, correct?

[JPinAZ]

So it builds attributes that one can use in fighting, correct?

heh, I feel the setup coming on, but yes, it does. But to qualify, what 'it' are we talking about?

(sorry, I edited my post and added on final line for clarification that wasn't in your quote)

[sanjuro_ronin]

heh, I feel the setup coming on, but yes, it does. But to qualify, what 'it' are we talking about?

(sorry, I edited my post and added on final line for clarification that wasn't in your quote)

No set-up, by attributes I mean the "STUFF" that help us in actual fighting:
Speed, strength, sensitivity, conditioning, endurance, etc, etc.

[t_niehoff]

I agree with you, there is a distinction betwen chi sau, the drill, and fighting. And I also agree, from some POV, chi sau the drill/rolling platfrom and fighting can have a greater distinction. But that depends on the POV and one's definition of 'chi sau' as I also talked about earlier. It really depends on how one also defines the work 'chi sau'


A person's POV doesn't change the underlying reality of the training process.



How I've been taught, chi sau isn't just a taan/bong/fook rolling drill or about training some shapes or sensitivity. As I outlined ealier, it's a lot more than that (from my POV). And the skills directly translate to fighting skills. Even the drills used to build the skill can progressively be trained at high energy and free from - just like in the fight. They can start from pre-contact as well as contact. Involve engaging the opponent, neutralizing, single and 2 arm bridging, how to disengage and re-engage with the opponent, how to handle attempts at grabbing, grappling, striking and also about control! How are all these things not about fighting? :)


The tools of WCK, which you learn in chi sao, are about fighting. So, as far as that goes, you can say chi sao is about fighitng. But that is the limit of it. While you are learning to perform the tools in chi sao, you are not learning how, when, where, etc. to use them in fighting. But you need to fight to see this.

You begin with "how I've been taught" -- and that's the problem. You also say that the skills directly translate to fighting. That may also be what you were taught. But you are wrong. If you were taught that your teacher was wrong. And you can see that for yourself by doing what I've pointed out to do.

This is what I keep saying -- people with no genuine EXPERIENCE fighting talking about how things will work in fighting. If your chi sao skills directly translate to fighiting, then that should be a very easy thing to show, right? Here I am doing chi sao, here I am fighting and looksee -- I'm doing the same things in the same way. Or to put it another way, you can do in fighting what you practice doing in chi sao as you practice it. But you haven't and can't do that. So you can't say that chi sao does translate into fighting from actual knowledge, but only from conjecture, by believing what you've been told -- by people who can't do it either!



Again, I think the issue with the discussion is how people look at the term 'chi sau' and what it means to them. If only looking from thier own POV, sure there is going to be misunderstanding.

You are right -- people who don't fight will have a VERY different POV of what chi sao is than people who do fight.

[m1k3]

You are right -- people who don't fight will have a VERY different POV of what chi sao is than people who do fight.

Quoted for truth.

[JPinAZ]

No set-up, by attributes I mean the "STUFF" that help us in actual fighting:
Speed, strength, sensitivity, conditioning, endurance, etc, etc.

Of course you do, but shouldn't the answer have been kinda obvious? Hopefully you are developing these things in any MA training.

But, that is far from all that is developed. The main focus of chi sau (HFY chi sau = kiu sau, chi kiu & T/B/F chi sau anyway) is to learn how to safely bridge/engage with an opponent, neutralize further grabs/strikes if necessary, control the opponent's COM, etc. Also, you are learning what parts of the arm to bridge with (wrist, forearm, elbow), correct facing with your opponent, correct reference points in space which drives proper structure, 4 & 6 gate heaven/human/earth gate theories, on and on..

So again, yes, of course, attributes you mentioned are necessary and also developed, why wouldn't they be? But there's a lot deeper focus as well within chi sau training (the concept/principles). The attributes you mentioned further enhance your skills and application, but aren't the sole factor in a fight. Now, isn't that what WC teaches us from day one? (efficeincy and economy of motion)

[Liddel]

This is such an age old debate in VT circles its laughable to me...

I for better or worse see the value from both sides.

I rate the higher intensity Chi Sau (a loose term which many use in differnt contexts) because like JPinAZ pointed out for a student of more than 3 approx years in VT shouldnt still be operating within the confines of FooK Jum Da Tan Da Bong or Poon Sau. a set of repeated actions.

But rather it should be free Chi sau meaning - any movement is allowed - the only Rule (if you will) is that the start point is in contact.

When i free chi Sau if contact is lost i look to regain, the 'session' is not over i close the gap while being offencive and any action from either party is expected.

Conversly though you wouldnt expect a Thai kick at this point because both parties are VT practitioners and thats not part of the cirriculum. (this raises a point about sparring with other styles to suppliment)

I Understand what Terrence is saying, by very definition Chi Sau - a drill starting in contact - is not a realistic representation of what happens in a fight.

Moreover - that once the action kicks off from the initial contact start each person doesnt behave like one would in an actual fight...

Now this is where the lines get blurred and one has to take a position on fighting behaviour IMO. Because seeking bridge contact and fighting up the center is not how most other styles and more important non fighters natural habbits are...

I will say though that conversly when ive tried sparring from a contact point with KB friends of mine they go 2 ways -
-They either look to clinch and knee elbow and punch or
-They disengage to outside range and attack or cover(defend)

Now as far as either responce i find each still within my ability to deal with in terms of Using VT - would i still call it Free Chi Sau -YES - to me it doesnt always have to in contact, thats why im taught from the VT style what options i have when contact is lost - i actually expect it and as previously mentioned is part of Free Chi sau with other VT training partners...

My point in this rant is that i see unco-operative resistant Free Chi sau as being very much like sparring where any action is allowed from any distance....

Some may call this sparring though :) but IMO its VT Gor Sau and luk sau combined.

And the main problem is beacuse of the nature of Chi Sau it can swing from unrealistic to very realistic depending on what paramaters one puts on the platform and how they preform it/ are taught it.

I dont feel ive explained it as well as i could if we got together and sparred using VT techs :) i hope some of my point got across.

Chi Sau is cool, and i love to sparr my buddies so its all relative IMHO. The problem is there can be so much GREY AREA lol :)

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course you do, but shouldn't the answer have been kinda obvious? Hopefully you are developing these things in any MA training.

But, that is far from all that is developed. The main focus of chi sau (HFY chi sau = kiu sau, chi kiu & T/B/F chi sau anyway) is to learn how to safely bridge/engage with an opponent, neutralize further grabs/strikes if necessary, control the opponent's COM, etc. Also, you are learning what parts of the arm to bridge with (wrist, forearm, elbow), correct facing with your opponent, correct reference points in space which drives proper structure, 4 & 6 gate heaven/human/earth gate theories, on and on..

So again, yes, of course, attributes you mentioned are necessary and also developed, why wouldn't they be? But there's a lot deeper focus as well within chi sau training (the concept/principles). The attributes you mentioned further enhance your skills and application, but aren't the sole factor in a fight. Now, isn't that what WC teaches us from day one? (efficeincy and economy of motion)

Here is the thing though, all the attributes in the world MUST be coupled to SPECIFIC movements ( techniques) and principles ( or concepts or whatever you prefer).
At what point does one make his training sepcific to the task it was intended for - fighting?
And when that happens, what happens to Chi sao?
How does it change?

[JPinAZ]

Here is the thing though, all the attributes in the world MUST be coupled to SPECIFIC movements ( techniques) and principles ( or concepts or whatever you prefer).
At what point does one make his training sepcific to the task it was intended for - fighting?
And when that happens, what happens to Chi sao?
How does it change?

Again, it really depends how you define chi sau and how I define chi sau. Please give me your explanation so I know where you are asking the questions from (?)

To try to answer from my POV, we have a 4-layer learning process for any of the modules (focus) of training. In the final layer is where you find skill challenge and live energy for whatever skills they were working on. The focus of the module doesn't change, it's just the heat and challenge has now reached a high level. And then there is also free sparring where the same skills are worked.
Note: the challenges are just WC-shaped challenges. It can be anything, hooks, grabs, takedowns, etc.

But the chi sau is still there, it doesn't disappear and it doesn't change. Why would it, you're still bridging in a fight right? (well, a good percentage of the time anyway if dealing with a competent opponent) Then again, we don't define chi sau as just a rolling platform to build attributes. It is a method for bridging at all ranges. It's directly related too and used in fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, it really depends how you define chi sau and how I define chi sau. Please give me your explanation so I know where you are asking the questions from (?)

To try to answer from my POV, we have a 4-layer learning process for any of the modules (focus) of training. In the final layer is where you find skill challenge and live energy for whatever skills they were working on. The focus of the module doesn't change, it's just the heat and challenge has now reached a high level. And then there is also free sparring where the same skills are worked.
Note: the challenges are just WC-shaped challenges. It can be anything, hooks, grabs, takedowns, etc.

But the chi sau is still there, it doesn't disappear and it doesn't change. Why would it, you're still bridging in a fight right? (well, a good percentage of the time anyway if dealing with a competent opponent) Then again, we don't define chi sau as just a rolling platform to build attributes. It is a method for bridging at all ranges. It's directly related too and used in fighting.

My question is, when you start "fighting" and sparring realisticly on a regular basis, do you still train chi sao and if you do, you focus on what?

[m1k3]

My question is similar yet different. Do you play chi sao with people outside of the wing chun and kung fu community? :confused:

[JPinAZ]

sanjuro_ronin,
I'm trying to answer, but we just keep going in circles. Please define what you mean by 'chi sau' when you ask these questions. Because if you're thinking one thing and I'm talking about something else, we're going to keep missing each other.

But for a quick answer, I have never stopped training bridging skills.

m1k3,

Some, but not much outside WC - although I would really welcome the experience! I have rolled (played the chi sau 'game') with other WC families. And by your question, I am assuming you are talking about Tann/Bong/Fook chi sau, or something else?

- I keep saying this, but unless we define what chi sau means to each of us when asking our questions, we're not going to get very far in the discussions.
If you need more specific examples of what I am talking about, feel free to ask.

JP

EDIT: my last post said "Note: the challenges are just WC-shaped challenges. It can be anything, hooks, grabs, takedowns, etc."... it should have read "the challenges aren't just WC-shaped challenges"

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin,
I'm trying to answer, but we just keep going in circles. Please define what you mean by 'chi sau' when you ask these questions. Because if you're thinking one thing and I'm talking about something else, we're going to keep missing each other.

But for a quick answer, I have never stopped training bridging skills.

m1k3,

Some, but not much outside WC - although I would really welcome the experience! I have rolled (played the chi sau 'game') with other WC families. And by your question, I am assuming you are talking about Tann/Bong/Fook chi sau, or something else?

- I keep saying this, but unless we define what chi sau means to each of us when asking our questions, we're not going to get very far in the discussions.
If you need more specific examples of what I am talking about, feel free to ask.

JP

EDIT: my last post said "Note: the challenges are just WC-shaped challenges. It can be anything, hooks, grabs, takedowns, etc."... it should have read "the challenges aren't just WC-shaped challenges"

You keep asking me to define Chi Sao but, my friend, that is exactly the point of this thread.
To ME, Chi sao is ANY training drill that "prioritizes" maintaining contact with the opponents bridges so as to attack and counter him.

[JPinAZ]

You keep asking me to define Chi Sao but, my friend, that is exactly the point of this thread.
To ME, Chi sao is ANY training drill that "prioritizes" maintaining contact with the opponents bridges so as to attack and counter him.

Ok, then I'll ask you:
At what point does one make his training sepcific to the task it was intended for - fighting?
And when that happens, what happens to Chi sao?
How does it change?

To you, do skills gained in 'Chi Sau' training have to change when being applied in a real fight? Does the training change/stop because you've reached the 'sparring stage' in one's training? Or, does chi sau training translate directly into useful fighting tools? If not, then isn't that taking a longer road?

I ask, because if one views chi sau as something that builds skills that directly translate to sparring/fighting, the answers to your questions should be quite obvious. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, then I'll ask you:
At what point does one make his training sepcific to the task it was intended for - fighting?

As soon as possible.


And when that happens, what happens to Chi sao?
How does it change?

One takes what one learns from fighting and adapts it to chi sao, and cahnegs that will happen, will happen naturally.


To you, do skills gained in 'Chi Sau' training have to change when being applied in a real fight? Does the training change/stop because you've reached the 'sparring stage' in one's training? Or, does chi sau training translate directly into useful fighting tools? If not, then isn't that taking a longer road?

Yes.

[SavvySavage]

Chi sao is a tool to learn certain skills like in fighting. It is not the end goal of training though. The goal should not be to get good at chi sao. It's a limited format where combatants are starting of at certain range like dueling. There are limitations however. You end up in unrealistic positions that would not happen if someone's bridge wasn't connected to you from the get go.

The kung fuer should become profficient in chi sao and recognize it's limits. But don't use it as the end all be all of training.