Part-Time vs. Full-Time Teachers

[Old Noob]

Many of you are teachers, either in your own schools or someone else's. I was wondering what your thoughts were on whether it's preferable to attend a school where the instructor has no job other than running the school.

On the one hand, it would seem preferable to seek out a school where the teacher has made his school his life's work. That way you know you're teacher's focus is not diverted by a "day job." On the other hand, a teacher who isn't depending on his school to put food on the table may not be tempted to "water down" the art in order to recruit or retain students.

So what do you think? Are full-timers forced to accept and promote students who may not be deserving in order to keep the school open and provide income or are they preferable because they or more fully immersed in their art? Are part-timers better because they can afford to be harder on students and train fewer or are they distracted from passing on their knowledge? Or...is this something that cannot be answered in general terms because school quality is so variable school to school?

Thoughts?

[David Jamieson]

I don't think it's a black and white issue at all.

some full time teachers are great
some full time teachers suck
some part time teachers are great
some part time teachers suck

some full time teachers are greedy and will dupe you
some full time teachers are not greedy and will not dupe you
some part time teachers are greedy and will dupe you
some part time teachers are not greedy and will not dupe you

some full time teachers are great, but are also greedy
some full time teachers....

and so on.
It's different in each and every school.

If the teacher lives by the art and the words he expects you to, then you are likely ok.

If the teacher demonstrates hypocrisy consistently, rethink what you are doing.

[Ray Pina]

Ideally, I would train with an instructor and 3 to 5 guys who are committed.

More than that you start getting dead weight. And if there is overhead to worry about then everything gets slowed down to the lowest common denominator.

[Tainan Mantis]

And if there is overhead to worry about then everything gets slowed down to the lowest common denominator.

I can see your point.
So from this perspective, what about your kids(I don't know if you have kids, just saying for example). Kids usually go to schools with other kids, lots of them.

So in that case, would you change your view or make an exception?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can see your point.
So from this perspective, what about your kids(I don't know if you have kids, just saying for example). Kids usually go to schools with other kids, lots of them.

So in that case, would you change your view or make an exception?

Not sure your point...

[MasterKiller]

I can see your point.
So from this perspective, what about your kids(I don't know if you have kids, just saying for example). Kids usually go to schools with other kids, lots of them.

So in that case, would you change your view or make an exception?

Kids should train with kids, and adults should train with adults.

While adults can learn in big classes by helping one another, I think kids do better in smaller classes because they need so much individual attention.

Having 30 kids in one class just leads to mayhem. You are basically getting paid to babysit.

[David Jamieson]

If you have 10 people who move in a group, the whole group will only progress as fast as it's slowest member.

hence, cutting the dead weight, which is where you start getting into elite training...until some schmuck comes along and makes you all look like weenies, in which case, that guy sets the new standard by which the group moves. :D

[SteveLau]

Many good points have been mentioned here on the topic. And David Jamieson
has probably listed out enough resulting cases. To me, teaching full-time or part-time possibly has no effect on the quality of teaching. It might means that full-time teachers have more students than part-time teachers in the same period, and no other difference.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[wetwonder]

In my school, the Sifu is full time and has had the school for several decades. Sifu is the only one that teaches the students. Adults and children train together. Sifu travels from person to person, either correcting or showing new movements. Nobody stagnates, and nobody moves to fast to keep up. Sifu knows everyone's skill level as they continue to learn, and he adds on new teachings as soon as the student is ready.

This is very different from the Kenpo school my daughter trains at. There, classes are only sometimes taught by the Master. The Master does not persistently know every student's skill level. The kids all learn at the same pace, which is proving to be problematic. My daughter started in December, a couple of months after the other kids started. She practices everyday at home, while the other kids do not. Within six weeks, she had greater skill than any of the kids. They just had a test this past week, and the Master was very shocked at how good she was. He awarded her a yellow belt, which was purportedly the fastest jump from white ever. The next day, she went to class, and the teacher was working on Katas that she had mastered two months earlier. I feel dissatisfied with how this school organizers their programs.

[TenTigers]

The next day, she went to class, and the teacher was working on Katas that she had mastered two months earlier.

mastered?
every time I practice my first form, I learn something new.

[wetwonder]

mastered?
every time I practice my first form, I learn something new.

Come on TenTigers. You know what I mean. She should always be practicing what she's learned, but she should also be permitted to learn something new, rather than waiting another 4 weeks for the class to catch up to her.

You don't agree with that?

[Violent Designs]

mastered?
every time I practice my first form, I learn something new.

I take it Gung Gee Fook Fu?

[David Jamieson]

mastered?
every time I practice my first form, I learn something new.

You too? :p

[TenTigers]

wetwonder-your daughter's school may have a rotating curriculum, where the entire class works on the same thing, and allows the teacher to cover material more thoroughly.

[wetwonder]

wetwonder-your daughter's school may have a rotating curriculum, where the entire class works on the same thing, and allows the teacher to cover material more thoroughly.

Yes, that may be true, I don't know. But the majority of the kids don't practice at home, and still don't know the few forms that were taught months before. Much of the class is spent showing those kids the same things over and over again. It's just that my daughter, only 8, and two other kids that are committed and practice at thome, are becoming a little frustrated at the pace. I guess they are just paying their dues - I don't know.

[YouKnowWho]

the majority of the kids don't practice at home,
A Karate instructor taught

- sit up,
- push up,
- stretch,
- run around the room,
- ...

I asked him, "Why do you teach those stuff that students can do at home?" He said, "Most of the students don't. They just want to have a good workout here so they don't have to do anything at home."

[ngokfei]

its no different then my daughter and her gymnastics school.

For $50 a month the get to attend 1 class a week for 1hr. They rotate to 4-5 different stations in that hour.

because I want her to improve and the environment of a gym is much more encouraging then gettingher to do it at home I fork out the additional $50 so she can attend 2 classes a week and occasionally a Saturday $15 for a 1-1 with a coach/assistant.

In todays martial arts schools then are the same. I guess I was lucky when I started out back in 85 with a school that still hung onto the family like values of you learn what you can absorb then are taught more when you've earned it through practice.

If your kids into it then I'd recommend looking for another school, that's if yo haven't been suckered into a long term commitment/contract.

[Shaolinlueb]

i rather have a part time 2 day a week teacher that cares about his students and rents space at some weird place, then a full time teacher who just does it for money first.

[YouKnowWho]

- A part time teacher will teach you 108 moves Taiji form in 3 months.
- A full time teacher will teach you 108 moves Taiji form in 2 years.

I knew a guy who taught his Taiji students all the moves of the Taiji form except the last move (the ending) so his students would stay longer and paid more money.

[taai gihk yahn]

- A part time teacher will teach you 108 moves Taiji form in 3 months.
- A full time teacher will teach you 108 moves Taiji form in 2 years.

I knew a guy who taught his Taiji students all the moves of the Taiji form except the last move (the ending) so his students would stay longer and paid more money.

my teacher is "full time" and teaches the 108 in a about a year; I personally think he taught it too fast...

[peace&love]

Whether full or part time, I believe it depends on the individual instructor as far as quality of instruction goes. Some great points have already been made. I had a sifu once who I studied under for a number of years and I saw a significant difference in his teaching going from part time to full time. He was an excellent teacher and he was able to go to full time because he reached a significant number of loyal students that allowed him to make that transition. With that being said, the level of instruction declined a bit once he became full time. When we met a few times a week, there seemed to be an urgency to get things right and there was a lot of focus in the school. When the doors became open five days a week, there seemed to be an attitude of well, you did not get that, that's okay, we have tomorrow to worry about that. The urgency was gone in training, but it was replaced by an urgency of running a business with bills, insurance, demos, etc. Being a great teacher and running a business are two different things. I ran two businesses at the same time at one point in my life and even though they were both successful, I decided to move on. The hours were just too much for me and I wanted to spend time with my family.

I have also had a part time teacher who taught out of gym and the instruction level was not very high. I don't know if they were just filling space for a class schedule or what, but the teacher was just not passionate about what they were doing. Now, I've seen instructors under this same scene teaching out of a gym and they were outstanding. It's just not an exact science.

I believe MA teachers are similar to general school teachers in one sense. Those who teach and continue to learn themselves and work to obtain knew knowledge to better themselves as teachers are successful. Those who simply stay stagnant in their current knowledge and do not try to learn anything knew and grow, have students who do not grow as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pros and cons go with both.
You just have to find the one that teaches you what you wanna learn.

[David Jamieson]

Pros and cons go with both.
You just have to find the one that teaches you what you wanna learn.

that's a chicken/egg thing.

imagine, grade one elementary school.

teacher: "what would you like to learn billy?"

billy: "duuuhhhhhhh, i don't know, how about if i endlessly reject what you have until i see something easy i can do quickly and without much effort?"

lol.

[sanjuro_ronin]

that's a chicken/egg thing.

imagine, grade one elementary school.

teacher: "what would you like to learn billy?"

billy: "duuuhhhhhhh, i don't know, how about if i endlessly reject what you have until i see something easy i can do quickly and without much effort?"

lol.

If you are pursing MA and you don't KNOW why, then NO teacher will be able to help you.
Best to take up needle point or cooking class or even Pilates.

[yu shan]

Nice post Peace&Love. I continually pursue knowledge from my Shifu to grow and and share with my students. I`m not selfish with these treasures and love to pass on the knowledge. I tell folks, I am still a student learning. I am part-time, I provide 3 X 1.5 hour classes per week, with an additional extra gathering in Dragon Park on Saturday afternoon and a Sunday morning freebie near my house. These two extra classes in the park & basketball court are not really a structured class, sort of a fine tuning with emphasis on weapons training. I have always done the kung fu club thing, it works great for me. I have my day time job that pays the bills (Thank God I have a job) and the kung fu gig provides extra money for my family and helps me pursue training with my teacher. I have a nice central location in the city, Baptist Hospital Wellness Center, with a low overhead. No stress!

[BoulderDawg]

I'll agree that I don't think whether or not someone devotes their entire life to MA 24 hours a day determined if they are a good teacher.

I would rather have a teacher who had varied interest and activities. We have a few students/teachers at our school who live and breathe it 24 hours a days....not good in my opinion.

[dc_jowga]

full time vs part time... blah. why not look at the quality of the teacher and his students?

chiu chi ling is a full time teacher. is he a sell out?

yip man was a full time teacher. was he a sell out?

YC wong is a full time teacher. is he a sell out?

i dont think so. probably the best thing is to observe the school... if they have karate belts and tight karate gi's and "KUNG FU" on the wall, look the other way. if they have kids teaching the class, testing fees, master/black belt club (even in a part time teacher's school), walk away.

i think some people only want to study in the woods or in a cave somewhere with an 80 year old monk, or they think they are getting ripped off. there's other philosophy to teaching than the shopping center guys, and different than the kung fu movie bunch too. sometimes, you pay more money because the teacher is WORTH it. sometimes, you're getting classes for $50 a month because the teacher is not.

sell out vs authentic teacher does not always = our stereotypes. investigate, dig deep, and try it out.... then make a decision.

[Taryn P.]

Yes, that may be true, I don't know. But the majority of the kids don't practice at home, and still don't know the few forms that were taught months before. Much of the class is spent showing those kids the same things over and over again. It's just that my daughter, only 8, and two other kids that are committed and practice at thome, are becoming a little frustrated at the pace. I guess they are just paying their dues - I don't know.

If it were my kid, I'd talk to the teacher about my concerns and see if some kind of arrangement could be made to challenge her a bit more.

Sure, those of us adults who have been doing this for a while can appreciate the value of practcing your first form again for the thousandth time and get more out of it, but an eight year old may get bored if she doesn't feel challenged enough, and lose interest altogether- just like the smartest kids in school who aren't being challenged enough.

If she likes it, and is disciplined about practicing at home, it would be a shame to let her get bored and discouraged and wind up quitting. Definitely figure something out for her.

[wetwonder]

If it were my kid, I'd talk to the teacher about my concerns and see if some kind of arrangement could be made to challenge her a bit more.

Sure, those of us adults who have been doing this for a while can appreciate the value of practcing your first form again for the thousandth time and get more out of it, but an eight year old may get bored if she doesn't feel challenged enough, and lose interest altogether- just like the smartest kids in school who aren't being challenged enough.

If she likes it, and is disciplined about practicing at home, it would be a shame to let her get bored and discouraged and wind up quitting. Definitely figure something out for her.


Taryn,
You are obviously insightful, and have excellent taste. We have done just as you've suggested, and our daughter was retested. The master was very surprised at how far she'd progressed and she jumped a belt on merit alone. Which made sense, b/c she new as much and was accomplished as the kids in the next higher level class.

[dimethylsea]

Alot of full time teachers might have the facilities, space and equipment that is closer to ideal.

Part time teachers might have smaller classes, more individual attention, and only keep people around they like and work well with.

Full time teachers usually have to teach "less than ideal" students such as children (personal bias of mine!) and people who just want to pay and hang out twice a month.


Part timer teachers are making their living some other way, so they may not be practicing as hard as the full timers in terms of competition training or their personal practice.

I've managed to figure out a way to have a nice school (in terms of the physical space and equipment) while still teaching part time. The only down side is I don't make much off it financially. But it's tons of fun!

[bawang]

those 20 years arent spent learning techniques man
those 20 years are spent conditioning your body, because there are so many conditioning excercises

the actualy learning can be done in 3-5 years i agree

[Chazmek]

but an eight year old may get bored if she doesn't feel challenged enough, and lose interest altogether

You'll get more of Box Form soon enough, just be patient!
:p

[Taryn P.]

You'll get more of Box Form soon enough, just be patient!
:p

All right, smart@ss- since you already offered to vouch for the extent of my womanly curves in another thread, it should be quite obvious to you that I'm not an eight-year-old.

<sticks tongue out>

[ironsifu]

In the past I undercharged for my time teaching martial arts because I underpaid my own Shifu...

It turned out to be cheaper for the students in the long run and it was more efficient for everyone in terms of time and money.

You can stay "busy" doing the same thing for 20 years, or you can actually get most of what you need for martial arts in about 3-5 years. I've opted out of the 20 year model for what I believe to be a more efficient one.
www.imperialtao.com


i agree with this, that sometimes martial skill can be good, and teaching skill may not be that good (or experienced). at the same time, a teacher who is worried about paying his rent might not be able to give 100% to his students in the classroom. there is a fine line between making a fair, comfortable living while teaching good martial arts, and "selling out". at the same time, you have to pay what teachers are worth. want to learn from average guys, pay low prices. want to learn from highly qualified masters, well you shouldnt expect to bargain with this teacher.

many of our own masters didnt charge much for lessons probably because they did not realize the value of their art and knowledge in american money. and the ones who do, and charge what they are worth... its not fair to say they are dishonest.

about the length of time you study for the art, i believe this depends on your goals. some people are happy with mediocre skill and knowledge, so a few years is good for them. others want to do this for a career, or just want to learn at the deeper levels of the martial arts. this will require a master who knows his stuff, and of course the financial commitment to learn...

[JackNate]

I don't know what is better, but I'd never want to be the PART-TIME TEACHER paying FULL-TIME RENT. Lots of schools seem to have that situation. Always trying to balance between charging reasonable rates, wand avoiding going broke. Much better in my opinion to be the big school guy running a business, or the tiny school(community centre, park, home) guy with little overhead. I think half way between doesn't work.

[Lee Chiang Po]

A very dear old friend of mine who owned a small store also taught WC at night after he closed his store for the day. He did not seek out students, but would only take a new student after talking for a long time. He also requested the new student bring him $1,000 the day before they would start. He had several students and would not work with more than one at a time. He had a couple of students coming in every night, but they would be at a particular time. I don't think he would have more than 6 students at any one time. Most were not aware of one another.
The purpose of the $1,000 in advance was to generate solid interest. If the student was soundly and firmly committed to learning he would not hesitate. If he did not then he was not soundly committed. There is nothing more aggrivating then have some one beg to learn and then not show up on the first night because he had a change in social affairs. To learn one must be dedicated and focused. Nothing will focus you more than the prospect of losing a thousand bucks. He could make a hard fighting machine of anyone in less than 6 months.

[shaolinboxer]

I was walking down the street with my son and I met a guy who just opened a fresh martial arts school and was passing out fliers. He couldn't have been over 40. I introduced myself and he said his name was "master han". He was a full time teacher....I wonder if he has an island of prostitutes and karate-fu experts.

I have two reaaaaaaaally different instructors. One is quiet and does little explaining, one is specific and open in his corrections. A lot of people worship instructors that I would think are clowns, and vice versa.

If it feels right, I suppose it must be.