The Way Kung Fu Was Trained in Prior Centuries

[BruiserBrody]

From what I have read, in previous centuries, it seems that new students would learn forms for years before moving on to other training. Is this true? If so, where would the teacher lead his student next? Would it move on to energy drills and sparring? And why were students only instructed to perform forms for the bulk of their early training?

[TenTigers]

One-for info on the forms-check the shaolin thread. It's an eye opener.
Two-forms, when they were taught, unless they were specifically for structural alignment, breath, power generation, etc were taught last, and many times only to lineage bearers, as sort of a "diploma." Drills and fighting were what was important.
The idea of forms takeing precedence over drills and fighting is a very recent innovation, and should be taken for what it is-something you step in when crossing a pasture.

[BoulderDawg]

From what I have read, in previous centuries, it seems that new students would learn forms for years before moving on to other training. Is this true? If so, where would the teacher lead his student next? Would it move on to energy drills and sparring? And why were students only instructed to perform forms for the bulk of their early training?

If you're talking about Kung Fu and the history in China there is no way to know how they trained. We can all make educated guesses and there will be people here who will tell you they know exactly what went on. But in reality there's been so much war, upheavel, revolution that 99% of any documentation has been lost.

[SPJ]

for most of us now and before

1. we practice single move all the time, solo, with props and with partner.

2. conditioning would be most of time, postures, hiting, kicking, with pads, bags, etc

3. free sparring is always part of the deal/practice.

--

forms or no forms.

:)

[EarthDragon]

a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.

I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown....... then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses

[Lucas]

a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.

I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown....... then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses

My first tcma teacher went through this process. being orphaned at a young age, he was given to the temple that he was raised at in cambodia. although he was not permitted to learn the kungfu. he ended up staying in horse stance outside of the temple for as long as he could every day for months before he was allowed to enter and train. He was then trained by the grandmaster there until the master died and he came to america.

interestingly enough the master there had him cross trained in judo. its that mentality of the temple kungfu to cross train as a fighter. its somewhat common for temple ma'ists to study 'abroad' at other temples or by other monks. similar to a student exchange program ;)

similarly he was put into thai boxing matches to test his skills as a youth teenager. he was trained there in several styles of kungfu, including shaolin kungfu.

[Shaolinlueb]

all you have to do is watch jackie chan, snake in the eagle's shadow. and thats pretty much how schools were taught back then.

[Pork Chop]

all you have to do is watch jackie chan, snake in the eagle's shadow. and thats pretty much how schools were taught back then.

err with the footprints on the ground & the mysterious texts?

[David Jamieson]

why would you want to train the way they did centuries ago?

there are much better ways now, better equipment etc. the qigongs are still qigongs, cardio-vascular is still that, general conditioning is still that and there are less convoluted ideas about how to maintain ones health these days.

run-jog
do calisthenics
kick,punch,lock,throw
lift weight
do task specific attribute development
do supporting attribute development

voila! just like they did it centuries ago!
there are no secrets, just do the work.

[golden arhat]

a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.

I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown....... then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

anyone with any sense would'nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck
people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

[golden arhat]

it also depends what you mean by "in previous centuries"

how far back are we going

i have a theory that alot of modern forms came about of teaching many people at once to a low standard but for a good price

to teach a contact sport you need training partnetrs and a good deal of one to one time

to teach a form you need one person to show the form, and 50 people to do it together and pay you! ahah

theres nothign wrong with alot of the techniques (alot are very exagerated in their delivery though) a unch is a punch and a claw to the face is a claw to the face

i think before the focus became on making money and preserving traditions
it was probably trained with alot of individual techniques trained singly and incorporated into live sparring and 2 man drills consisting of a few moves each (not long coreographed sequences like you see of 2 man drills these days)

[Lucas]

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

anyone with any sense would'nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck
people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

they get their asses kicked, or they win. depends on how good the fighter is that attacks them. could just be a schmuck, because not everyone is a martial artists, assuming they arent, its an even fight.

generally this method was to ensure only the dedicated stay. of course i would never adhere to this. i wouldnt get taught if this were the case. were i raised in china in an atmosphere where this was the norm, i may be different.

many temples were and are still like this. they dont care want people just dropping by, soaking up some training then leaving. they want life long students. a lot of westerners have a problem grasping this old concept.

[WinterPalm]

My understanding was the opposite of this and that what you're talking about is stuff form movies.

Kung Fu is for fighting first and foremost and if it takes years of waving your hands in the air before you get to learn any actual combat stuff, you probably won't stick around for long.
Consider if people in the old China days had to actually fight all the time, they would want to come in and learn something off the hop...something they could potentially use later that day.

[golden arhat]

My understanding was the opposite of this and that what you're talking about is stuff form movies.

Kung Fu is for fighting first and foremost and if it takes years of waving your hands in the air before you get to learn any actual combat stuff, you probably won't stick around for long.
Consider if people in the old China days had to actually fight all the time, they would want to come in and learn something off the hop...something they could potentially use later that day.

exactly
china was (and is) a violent place!

[golgo]

err with the footprints on the ground & the mysterious texts?

Wasn't that "Spiritual Kung Fu?"

[Ray Pina]

Forms were added to dilute martial arts. To change the focus from fighting to displays of athleticism. It was intentional and it worked.

[Lucas]

think about this. a lot of people get involved in martial arts at different ages. some start at 5 some start at 10 or 12. people that start at 10 or 12 some times become better martial artists than those that start at 5, and vise versa.

its not so cut and dry.

for instance, my old sifu sat in horse stance for 6 months at the age of 5 before he was allowed to learn fighting....so he was what, 5 1/2, maybe 6 when he started to actually learn. i can tell you this guy is a badass, but dont take my word for it, come to portland and meet him.

but the point is, that he still started to learn the martial aspects when he was mentally and physically capable due to age. who fights seriously at 5? he did prove his dedication to his grandmaster, and was given a very good martial education. this isnt just theoretical air waving modern wushu either. this same grandmaster made him learn judo till he got to black belt. and made him fight in thai matches.

where do you think the movie makers go the ideas? from real life. It may not be common today, but i can assure you, in many instances this type of dedication prooving was not all that uncommon.

i know a man who went through this process and very traditional training methods from this century....these traditions are often kept very well in the temples. for instance, he studied for hours every day. one day he told me the average american student would have to study for years to reach the hours he put in in 6 months. full time training is also a pretty traditional aspect to martial temple life. pray, meditate, and practice martial arts.

he later in life studied under the same wushu master jet li did.

[Lucas]

Forms were added to dilute martial arts. To change the focus from fighting to displays of athleticism. It was intentional and it worked.

i disagree. i believe that modernly this is the case. but there are some very old forms. shaolin for example

a guy may learn 1 form maybe 5 or maybe 10. doesnt take that much time. also if you are able to train full time. (which generally is not the case for most people, which is where part of the problem lies if you do too many forms ) forms may take up a very small percentage of your time, and allows you to catelog the techniques in a format that allows the practitioner to extract them, and at a later date pass on the format to others.

people always favor certain techniques. and will discard some. a form allows you to pass on the combined techniques from said style, including the ones you personally discard and do not fully master. someone else may want to master a particular technique from your style, that you perhaps did not use very often, or at all.

for instance, i practice 2 forms on a regular basis. xiaohongquan, dahongquan. this takes up very, very little of my time though. i use these forms for warm ups before i weight train, or before I run. it gets my heart rate up, gets my body a good warm up after my stretching, and also doubles as practice of the format. when i spend my time on my heavy bag, i practice certain techniques from the forms, but not all of them. some i dont like.

[EarthDragon]

golden arhat

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

quite the opposite........ the "stupid" as you called them thought they were owed something and when they didnt get it... they left.

anyone with any sense would'nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck

no offence......... but this is just a ridiculous statement...you are speaking as an american with an american attitude........ this is not foriegn mentality and you cannot understand foriegn mentailty.. its very different then the get it now instant lives we lead in America

people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

maybe you dont but many do. this is a sweeping assumtion comming from your train of thought, but I can assure you I waited 5 years before my teacher accepted me... others have told me they wouldnt wait a month.. depends on how bad you want it......
and if you havent spent at least a few years in anything especially horse stance how good is your foundation??? my sifus legs were like tree trunks.....
this is the problem with so many people now a days that call themselves MA they spend a few months learning some kicks, and punches and all of the sudden thier a bad ass.....

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

the same thing that happens before you learn MA you get beat up.. there is no time line here to refer to but if you are in such a rush to how many classes does it take to not be beat up?
... what if your 10 years old? you get a fat lip and a black eye. we are not talking about life and death grudge matches

[Lucas]

golden hails from the uk i believe. i attribute this mentality to be pretty common among westerners. not all inclusive of course.

this same method was used in the knights of old in europe.

its called being a squire. you cannot hold a blade until you are allowed to. often taking years.

[YouKnowWho]

When I was 11 years old, one of my CMA teachers taught me an open hand form and a staff form. One day I asked him how to use my form in fighting, he said, "After you have trained '1 step 3 punches' for 3 years and I'll teach you how to fight after that." I believe if you want to be a fighter, the training path is completely different.

I have learned more than 30 forms in my life but I no longer train any of them. It's very hard to be a "fighter in the ring" and a "performer on the stage" at the same time.

[golden arhat]

golden arhat

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

quite the opposite........ the "stupid" as you called them thought they were owed something and when they didnt get it... they left.

anyone with any sense would'nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck

no offence......... but this is just a ridiculous statement...you are speaking as an american with an american attitude........ this is not foriegn mentality and you cannot understand foriegn mentailty.. its very different then the get it now instant lives we lead in America

people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

maybe you dont but many do. this is a sweeping assumtion comming from your train of thought, but I can assure you I waited 5 years before my teacher accepted me... others have told me they wouldnt wait a month.. depends on how bad you want it......
and if you havent spent at least a few years in anything especially horse stance how good is your foundation??? my sifus legs were like tree trunks.....
this is the problem with so many people now a days that call themselves MA they spend a few months learning some kicks, and punches and all of the sudden thier a bad ass.....

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

the same thing that happens before you learn MA you get beat up.. there is no time line here to refer to but if you are in such a rush to how many classes does it take to not be beat up?
... what if your 10 years old? you get a fat lip and a black eye. we are not talking about life and death grudge matches

if i'm paying for something, i want results, if thats a feeble western mentality then i dont care
just because something is eastern doesnt make it more vaulable

i didnt spend a few months doing this or that, i've been doing MA most of my life
i've learnt in a conscise way learning applications, forms, weapons from good teacehrs and bad teachers from books and dfrom friends, from videos and sparring partners

just because i didnt sit around developing my foundation before i was priveleged enough to learn the secrets

sounds like BS to me, at my gym that i've been going to for 3 years now
we're all friends
and my teacher isnt my "master" he's my friend
so is everyone else there and we learn from each other and do martial arts
and i've never seen my teacher lose to anyone aor seen anyone better to him that isnt competing at the national level (he's no fedor ahaha)

i'm not waiting around to be privelged enough to learn the "real" stuff

its like ip man said "there are no secrets, just correct principles and understanding"

we do horse stance where i train but its silly to expect anyone to wait around for instruction liek that
there are better ways of weeding out those who arent dedicated
and thats just THROUGH TRAINING if you arent dedicated then you wont continue, but they'l still help you pay your rent

simple :)

[golden arhat]

golden hails from the uk i believe. i attribute this mentality to be pretty common among westerners. not all inclusive of course.

this same method was used in the knights of old in europe.

its called being a squire. you cannot hold a blade until you are allowed to. often taking years.

that was different, if you were a squire you were from a noble family also, you'd be sent to live with your older cousins etc

help him prepare armour
train with weapons
learn how to put on your relatives armour correctly
and act as a sparring partner also

and had no bearing on weither or not you were dedicated or not
you were a knight and you trained to be a knight and a weapon of war and had and it had everything to do with who your related to. aside from the fact that people didnt live that long circa 15-1600 60's at best so you didnt have time to wait about

[BoulderDawg]

To start with I would get severly bored really quick if I were paying money to be told to sit in a horse for two years. Also, I'm simply not dedicated enough to do a program that requires something like that...Sorry about that but I have other interest and MA is just one of them.

Also, I think the stories of people sitting in Horse stance, hitting water, so on and so forth for five years before they do any real training is far overblown.

I can see kids going to play football and the coach saying, "Glad to have everyone here...All you are going to do for the first year is to get down in a three point stance."

And I've heard that is a "western" Philosophy...BS If you opened a school in China (without any resrictions) and told parents "Well for the first five years of the program your child would only do Horse stance" I bet you would get the same reaction as you would here.

[Hardwork108]

golden arhat

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

quite the opposite........ the "stupid" as you called them thought they were owed something and when they didnt get it... they left.

anyone with any sense would'nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck

no offence......... but this is just a ridiculous statement...you are speaking as an american with an american attitude........ this is not foriegn mentality and you cannot understand foriegn mentailty.. its very different then the get it now instant lives we lead in America

people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

maybe you dont but many do. this is a sweeping assumtion comming from your train of thought, but I can assure you I waited 5 years before my teacher accepted me... others have told me they wouldnt wait a month.. depends on how bad you want it......
and if you havent spent at least a few years in anything especially horse stance how good is your foundation??? my sifus legs were like tree trunks.....
this is the problem with so many people now a days that call themselves MA they spend a few months learning some kicks, and punches and all of the sudden thier a bad ass.....

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

the same thing that happens before you learn MA you get beat up.. there is no time line here to refer to but if you are in such a rush to how many classes does it take to not be beat up?
... what if your 10 years old? you get a fat lip and a black eye. we are not talking about life and death grudge matches

Very well put.:)

I remember the first months of training in Siu Lam Wing Chun. Sifu put me through a lot of hard training including horse stance (Shaolin not Wing Chun). On one level he was building up my roots and foundations and on the other level he was testing my dedication and consistancy.

Knowing the "kickboxing" approach to kung fu training that is so prevalent today it is easy to see how the foundation training is overlooked, after all many so called "kung fu" fighters fight without kung fu roots, "hopping" around like boxers and TKD-ists.

The "make a fast buck" from kickboxing, sorry "kung fu" experts or "sifus" use many irrelevant modern approaches just to ensure that those students with the shorter attention spans stick around a little longer.

Lastly, most so called kung fu "sifus" would not recognize traditional training nor understand its significance even if it fell on them.

[Yum Cha]

I know someone who was taught the old way.

His Sifu was born in the 1918, trained under Chang Lai Cheun, born 1880.

When he was accepted as a student he moved in with SiGung.

He lived and trained with him everyday, several hours, for nearly 5 years. Working for him at the same time.

First they learned all the forms, from stance, to simple forms, to complex forms. After a certain point, they began to use form elements as fighting combinations in training.
After that they went to work in the 'security' business. A little bare knuckle prize fighting on the side.

All this talk about stance for the first year, etc, is not the old way, that's hybrid.

The old way was live in, work for your training, then put your training to work.

At least, in this one situation, under this one sifu, in this one style in Maoist China where Kung Fu was a forbidden old way.

[Hardwork108]

Forms were added to dilute martial arts. To change the focus from fighting to displays of athleticism. It was intentional and it worked.


Forms are a valuable teaching tool. They are also an encyclopedia of a given style. On another level they can also help internal training eg. the White Crane Sam Chien form.

[Lucas]

that was different, if you were a squire you were from a noble family also, you'd be sent to live with your older cousins etc

help him prepare armour
train with weapons
learn how to put on your relatives armour correctly
and act as a sparring partner also

and had no bearing on weither or not you were dedicated or not
you were a knight and you trained to be a knight and a weapon of war and had and it had everything to do with who your related to. aside from the fact that people didnt live that long circa 15-1600 60's at best so you didnt have time to wait about

very true. though this is simply to point out that cultures, in the past, have often had traditional methods by which they would induct people into the warrior caste.

as a child, rarely, if ever, will you see them fighting. ususally this long period of 'prooving yourself' was done when y9ou were a child.

as an adult this would often be done through actual fighting. you proove that you are dedicated by showing that you can fight. thos skills would have been aquired through dedicated practice and training.

[Lucas]

I know someone who was taught the old way.

His Sifu was born in the 1918, trained under Chang Lai Cheun, born 1880.

When he was accepted as a student he moved in with SiGung.

He lived and trained with him everyday, several hours, for nearly 5 years. Working for him at the same time.

First they learned all the forms, from stance, to simple forms, to complex forms. After a certain point, they began to use form elements as fighting combinations in training.
After that they went to work in the 'security' business. A little bare knuckle prize fighting on the side.

All this talk about stance for the first year, etc, is not the old way, that's hybrid.

The old way was live in, work for your training, then put your training to work.

At least, in this one situation, under this one sifu, in this one style in Maoist China where Kung Fu was a forbidden old way.

this is very similar to the traditional young squire. you are family, and you work and learn the family trade. which happens to be fighting.

[Kansuke]

Lastly, most so called kung fu "sifus" would not recognize traditional training nor understand its significance even if it fell on them.



Yeah, almost no one knows as much as you and your two years of training... :rolleyes:

[bawang]

The story of nine tatoo dragon Shi Jing says he finished learning the entire Six Harmony style from his sifu in one year. sixy harmony still exist today

it should take no time at all in kung fu to learn all the stuff. the way people are teaching it today makes it hard, like making you imitate complicated unexplained movements.

about stories of sifus making people do horse stance for five years, thats a myth
no one does NOTHING but horse stance for 5 years

[EarthDragon]

golden arhat,

if i'm paying for something, i want results, if thats a feeble western mentality then i dont care
just because something is eastern doesnt make it more vaulable

this thread is named training in prior centuries, peasants, poor people, famers etc etc. there is nothing about paying for teaching. never said it was more valuable because its eastern.


i didnt spend a few months doing this or that, i've been doing MA most of my life
i've learnt in a conscise way learning applications, forms, weapons from good teacehrs and bad teachers from books and dfrom friends, from videos and sparring partners

please undestand I was not speaking about you specifically and i am glad you have time under your belt. I am just trying to answer in terms of the question for the topic of the this thread..

just because i didnt sit around developing my foundation before i was priveleged enough to learn the secrets

allow me to ask you ... would your foundation be stronger if you put more time into it???

sounds like BS to me, at my gym that i've been going to for 3 years now
we're all friends
and my teacher isnt my "master" he's my friend
so is everyone else there and we learn from each other and do martial arts
and i've never seen my teacher lose to anyone aor seen anyone better to him that isnt competing at the national level (he's no fedor ahaha)

Im happy you get along with your kung fu brothers, the word master is over rated and almost extinct, but again we are talking about something say 300 years ago... times have changed since then havent they?

i'm not waiting around to be privelged enough to learn the "real" stuff

others might... depends on how good you wish to be.. I know students that put in 2 years and feel they learned enough... I have 4 students with 10 plus years and still wanting to learn more...


we do horse stance where i train but its silly to expect anyone to wait around for instruction liek that
there are better ways of weeding out those who arent dedicated
and thats just THROUGH TRAINING if you arent dedicated then you wont continue, but they'l still help you pay your rent

depends on the person. bodhidharma (damo) waited in a cave for 9 years to find a diciple worthy enough to teach Buddhism too... would you wait for even a month? nowe you see the difference between men........... be well..............................................

[David Jamieson]

The old way was live in, work for your training, then put your training to work.

In all honesty, this is the way it is now with both professional fighters and professional soldiers. :p

[Ray Pina]

i disagree. i believe that modernly this is the case. but there are some very old forms. shaolin for example

The Chinese government began to hold contests favoring form over fighting a long time ago. It is not a new creation. And it was done with an intention in mind.

The idea of Shoalin Monks doing forms atop pagodas (which are sacred tombs) sell movies and magazines. They wouldn't prepare you to defend yourself or loved ones from the very serious threat of murder and rape.... as is evident from the result of today's form work.

Mission accomplished: A large population of non-warriors.

[Ray Pina]

In all honesty, this is the way it is now with both professional fighters and professional soldiers. :p

Exactly.....

[golden arhat]

allow me to ask you ... would your foundation be stronger if you put more time into it???



definitley of course it would be i agree


i see what your driving at, i'm just pointing out that its not practical

[EarthDragon]

arhat,
its OK brother...many times I agree to disagree.. everyone on the board sooner or later has valid points.. well most.. LOL
but you must realize that training and thinking 300 years ago is not like today....hell 50 years ago is nothing like it is today... so you cant say that you wouldnt spend the time waiting or that you feel the teacher is obligated to teach you just becuse you have been waiting around for say 3 months???

thats the point I was trying to get across.. you keep saying that its ridiculous to wait to be taught and you need to get bang for your buck but most teachers did not recieve monetary payment so if you swept, washed, cooked etc etc for your teacher are you supposed to be taught quicker? this is justgesture of appreciation for even considering you.....

[Mano Mano]

Another aspect of kung fu training is the teaching of weapons. I can’t believe that students trained in empty hand drills & forms for years on end without learning practical weapons training for fighting not just forms.
What use is standing in horse stance & punching air for months on end if the kung fu school gets stormed by a rival school.

[EarthDragon]

rival schools??? not sure what you mean by this as most MA schools were religious sanctuaries.. we are not talking about training the mancu's or military.

Also many kung fu systems have no weapons ..and most japanese weapons were farming tools so not sure if you are implying they needed to learn weapons to fight off temples down the street or what?

how many weapons do you think were bought, owned, shared and sold in a peasant village with no money? from what my sifu tells me most teachers were poor and illiterate.. they had money for food if they were lucky, not shopping at the silversmiths

[Mano Mano]

rival schools??? not sure what you mean by this as most MA schools were religious sanctuaries.. we are not talking about training the mancu's or military.
It’s a myth that MA schools were religious sanctuaries even in china you cant use the excuse that MA was exclusively Shaolin or Wudang there were plenty of MA schools & teachers outside the temples.
Martial artists were worldly fighters not monks or priests. Usually ex-military returned to civilian life or taught by said ex-military returned to civilian life. It was military men who took MA into the templs.


Also many kung fu systems have no weapons ..and most japanese weapons were farming tools so not sure if you are implying they needed to learn weapons to fight off temples down the street or what?
The katana, nodachi & yari are not farm implements


how many weapons do you think were bought, owned, shared and sold in a peasant village with no money? from what my sifu tells me most teachers were poor and illiterate.. they had money for food if they were lucky, not shopping at the silversmiths
Wear did I say they couldn’t afford to buy weapons. Practical weapon’s training is practical weapon’s training no matter what weapon is being used whether you are using a sword, staff spear or farmers hoe.
Most sifu’s may have been poor and illiterate, how ever the exceptional ones usually had the patronage of a rich family/persons or an organization to fund them.

[EarthDragon]

Mano mano,

It’s a myth that MA schools were religious sanctuaries even in china you cant use the excuse that MA was exclusively Shaolin or Wudang there were plenty of MA schools & teachers outside the temples.
Martial artists were worldly fighters not monks or priests. Usually ex-military returned to civilian life or taught by said ex-military returned to civilian life. It was military men who took MA into the templs.

never said exclusively I did say MOST.

Usually Military men took MA to the temples? what do you base this information on?

The katana, nodachi & yari are not farm implements

true but these weapons centiuries ago were used by samurai or royalty either way they were wealtyh in thier own right they were not owned or posessed by peasants

Wear did I say they couldn’t afford to buy weapons. Practical weapon’s training is practical weapon’s training no matter what weapon is being used whether you are using a sword, staff spear or farmers hoe.

most of the villagers centuries ago didnt have enough money to purchase these weapons unless of course they bargined them in a trade.

I agree however why would one train originally to use a kama, nunchucku, or bo for fighting?? they used them for thier purpose to farm,

Most sifu’s may have been poor and illiterate, how ever the exceptional ones usually had the patronage of a rich family/persons or an organization to fund them.

I agree with this as my sifu's sifu was taken in by a well-to-do family...

[Kansuke]

not sure if you are implying they needed to learn weapons to fight off temples down the street or what?



Actually, that was an occaisional need at certain times and places.

[EarthDragon]

kansuke,
while I am sure there were times for this, I was just saying it was not the norm. many a monk defending thier temples from being taken over or burned, it was usually the gov. not rival schools

[Kansuke]

No offense, but you seem to talk about this stuff more than you have actually studied it.

[EarthDragon]

well I know a little having lived in S.F China town with my teacher who is Chinese, and moving to NY with my chinese qigong teacher, studying chinese medicine, and the language for the better part of 20 years I think I have a pretty good handle on it.

I will be the first to admitt thier are many others on these boards more well versed in it than I but I feel pretty confident in what I know or have been taught.

[BoulderDawg]

No offense, but you seem to talk about this stuff more than you have actually studied it.

There are tons of people here who know more than I do.

There are also people here who know less. Their opinions are respected just as much as the others.

In any case, given these types of comments I would like to see your resume. Who did you study under? How long have you studied? I'm sure people here would like to know.

[EarthDragon]

LOL boulderdawg, there just kids having fun., you cant take them serioulsy.. I love when someone calls me out. I cheat..... I just cut and paste from my book of kung fu secrets LOL

[bawang]

rival schools??? not sure what you mean by this as most MA schools were religious sanctuaries.. we are not talking about training the mancu's or military.
what ma schools were religious sanctuaries
martial art school is a house, theres people in it, they learn to fight


Also many kung fu systems have no weapons ..and most japanese weapons were farming tools so not sure if you are implying they needed to learn weapons to fight off temples down the street or what?
what kung fu system dont have weapons



how many weapons do you think were bought, owned, shared and sold in a peasant village with no money? from what my sifu tells me most teachers were poor and illiterate.. they had money for food if they were lucky, not shopping at the silversmiths
farmers dont learn kung fu, robbers learn kung fu

[Kansuke]

LOL boulderdawg, there just kids having fun., you cant take them serioulsy..



LOL. English are hard for to right korrectly!

[EarthDragon]

bawang,

what ma schools were religious sanctuaries
martial art school is a house, theres people in it, they learn to fight

temples

what kung fu system dont have weapons

my system.....8 step praying mantis.


farmers dont learn kung fu, robbers learn kung fu

In okinawa, farmers learned to fight.....

[bawang]

temples
i dont know how to reply this
of course kung fu is not taught in temples that is rediculous
kung fu is taught by the military and by military families, robbers, rebels,criminals




my system.....8 step praying mantis
other than your style, out of hundreds of kung fu styles, not many dont have weapons
if you dont train weapons, how do u defend yourself against a robber with a big sword




In okinawa, farmers learned to fight.....
okinawa isnt china
in china robbers and bodyguards learn kung fu
the martial art world was called green forest and rivers and lakes for a reason

[EarthDragon]

bawang.............are we reading the same things???? becuse I surley answere your original questions yest you asked them again....

you asked what ma schools were religious sanctuaries
I replied temples

you replied what temples other than shaolin wudang emei wutai hua, there are thousands of temples
theres 200 temples on wudang moutain alone, only few teach martial art at all

you then asked what MA doesnt have weapons????

I replied 8 step praying mantis..


if you dont train weapons, how do u defend yourself

LOL from what soilders on horse back? or the guy walking around with a sword...............in the hundreds of fights I have been in I have only once had to defend myself agianst a weapon......... a knife.. other than that I use my hands to defend myself. what do you use? how many times in real life are you going to be walking down the street with your weapon of choice??

okinawa isnt china
in china robbers and bodyguards learn kung fu

thanks for the geography lesson........but seriously when is the last time you walked the streets canton, bejing or Shanghi???? LOL where are you getting this information?

[bawang]

we are talking about same thing? about kung fu hundreds of years ago?
u were saying most kung fu were from temples and most of kung fu dont teach weapons i said thats not true and gave example but u ignore :( saaaaaad face!

about kung fu mainly from robbers, what do you mean where i get it from, its common knowledge everyone in the wulin knows that. you never heard of triads?

[wetwonder]

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909752]

in the hundreds of fights I have been in I have only once had to defend myself agianst a weapon.........QUOTE]

Earthdragon,
I'm not trying to be smart, but how is that you've found yourself in hundreds of fights? Was the only recourse was to engage?

[YouKnowWho]

my system.....8 step praying mantis.
Are you from 衛笑堂 Wei Xiao-Tang's branch? Have never heard anybody else taught 8 steps PM. I have many of his books that has a lot of good fighting strategies.

[golden arhat]

Usually Military men took MA to the temples? what do you base this information on?

5th brother 8 diagram staff was originally a spear method that was brough by a spearman to the southern shaolin temple thats one example

another example of military influence on religious establishments would be general yeu fei creating xing yi and the influence thats played on taoist methods

and his creating of eaqle claw which was incorporated into shaolin
the list goes on......



true but these weapons centiuries ago were used by samurai or royalty either way they were wealtyh in thier own right they were not owned or posessed by peasants

most of the villagers centuries ago didnt have enough money to purchase these weapons unless of course they bargined them in a trade.

spears were the most common weapon around, ahigaru or footsoldiers did most of the fighting not samurai as samurai were typically mounted, behind the lines
or leading peasant fighters

swords knives bows and spears were common place in civillian life due to the fact that there was alot of warring, especcialy during the sengoku era
in the edo period less so because of the peaceful tiems but to say that it was only samurai who yused swords is definitley not the truth





I agree however why would one train originally to use a kama, nunchucku, or bo for fighting?? they used them for thier purpose to farm,

nunchaku were not actual farming implements theyre too short to make effective grain threshers

what use does a staff have for farming ?

[David Jamieson]

In Meir Shahar's recent book he reveals that the shaolin were first known for their staff techniques and in fact had a few manuals about their technique with staff published and admired by military advocates.

having said that, staffs are useful in herding, but I don't think buddhist monks would do much of that.

as for the japanese weapons, they are irrelevant to kungfu development.

there is however different types of martial arts relating to kungfu cultivation.

medical and military being two huge ones that spring to mind immediately.

and yes, many a rebel or soldier was taken into many a temple and there they did share their knowledge with the monks or use their skills in serving the monks in return for their hospitality.

not forgetting that buddhist monasteries (and others) were often institutions that were not at all immune to politics and all that it brought to a nation.

[BoulderDawg]

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;909752]

in the hundreds of fights I have been in I have only once had to defend myself agianst a weapon.........QUOTE]

Earthdragon,
I'm not trying to be smart, but how is that you've found yourself in hundreds of fights? Was the only recourse was to engage?

He's right.

I haven't been in a real fight since I was a kid much less hundreds of them. My guess is someone that violence would have landed in jail years ago.

[golden arhat]

i've had a fair few fights and i've already been in trouble with the law
hundreds is obviously an exageration

but i'd still like to know

how did you avoid jail ? ;)

[wetwonder]

I was thinking about the "hundreds of fight" and perhaps he's a bouncer or police officer. Some folks, unfortunately, are required by their profession.

[Kansuke]

I was thinking about the "hundreds of fight" and perhaps he's a bouncer or police officer. Some folks, unfortunately, are required by their profession.

Or he could just be an artist




























And by that I mean BS artist.

[BoulderDawg]

I was thinking about the "hundreds of fight" and perhaps he's a bouncer or police officer. Some folks, unfortunately, are required by their profession.

I've known a few bouncers. Fights are rare. Usually if you have some drunk start throwing punches he will get peppered sprayed and there will be 5-6 people on him esorting him to the door. One guy I know worked as a bouncer for three years. He said he resorted to throwing fist maybe 5-6 times...usually after he had been blindsided.

Police? Don't know any but I believe fights are even rarer. People who might be willing to attack a bouncer would never even think to hit a cop. Those that do will be taken down with weapons. It's not Walker Texas ranger!

[Kansuke]

I've known a few bouncers. Fights are rare. Usually if you have some drunk start throwing punches he will get peppered sprayed and there will be 5-6 people on him esorting him to the door.


I can't recall ever seeing a person pepper sprayed inside a bar by bouncers. Seems like a good way to make everyone in the bar leave. Maybe you are too communist to see how that might affect business.

[EarthDragon]

I will try to answer al of your questions sorry if I miss some.

Earthdragon,
I'm not trying to be smart, but how is that you've found yourself in hundreds of fights? Was the only recourse was to engage?

I grew up in the streets of NY which is why when I was young I my mom enrolled me in MA in the first place. Then I became a bully and started fights (not proud of that), then I pit faught for about 2 years for some extra money, then took some side work with some friends, then bounced for 11 years though they were not really all out fights but scuffles, and no your not allowed to use pepper spray in the state of NY legally, body guarding and full contact fighting in the ISKA, then training for the UFC

you knwo who,

Are you from 衛笑堂 Wei Xiao-Tang's branch? Have never heard anybody else taught 8 steps PM. I have many of his books that has a lot of good fighting strategies.


Yes I am, and yes I know of most all of master Wei students, all we have is fighting 8 step is a very aggressive system.


5th brother 8 diagram staff was originally a spear method that was brough by a spearman to the southern shaolin temple thats one example

this i did not know

another example of military influence on religious establishments would be general yeu fei creating xing yi and the influence thats played on taoist methods

and his creating of eaqle claw which was incorporated into shaolin
the list goes on......

your saying that Yeu Fei created xingyi and eagle claw (Ying Jao)??? I beleive it was Ouk Fai who creted this system


spears were the most common weapon around, ahigaru or footsoldiers did most of the fighting not samurai as samurai were typically mounted, behind the lines
or leading peasant fighters

swords knives bows and spears were common place in civillian life due to the fact that there was alot of warring, especcialy during the sengoku era
in the edo period less so because of the peaceful tiems but to say that it was only samurai who yused swords is definitley not the truth

OK I understnad where your comming from, your right


nunchaku were not actual farming implements theyre too short to make effective grain threshers

I belive they had 1 long handle and 1 short... it was this tool that the now known weapon came from

what use does a staff have for farming ?

to carry 4 pails of water on each end of the staff across the shoulders

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Forms were added to dilute martial arts. To change the focus from fighting to displays of athleticism. It was intentional and it worked.

Reply]
This is close to what happened.

Originally forms were living catalogs of a system. They were taught last as sort of a diploma so one could prove he was a legit master of a style, rather than making false claims.

Since the ONLY way to learn the form, was to learn all the techniques, strategies, tactics and fighting of the style first, if one knew the form at all, then one HAD to have mastered the fighting. Otherwise, they would not have been taught the form.

Later it started to be taught to advanced students a s solo practice to refine the body mechanics to a greater degree, but ultimately was still one of the last things taught.

What you are talking about is much more recent, maybe in the last 3 generations or so. There was a large scale demilitarization of Kung Fu over all. They did this by limiting the training to heavy conditioning, and shifted the forms from being the LAST thing taught, to the first thing. This basically took all the teeth our of many lineages, or restricted the real system to only close friends and family of the master. even then, many had to suffer through many years of the modern demilitarized training before they could start all over again and re learn it right.

There are lines who never did this in most systems (at least i would like to believe there are). I suspect if you look at Chinese MMA, and sanshou you will find them competing there.

[TenTigers]

your saying that Yeu Fei created xingyi and eagle claw (Ying Jao)??? I beleive it was Ouk Fai who creted this system
[
Ngok Fei, or Ouk Fei, is the Cantonese pronounciation of Yeu Fei

[Mr Punch]

I like the way people are making such unfounded sweeping generalizations... so here are mine!

Sure there were temple arts, but there were hundreds of arts, and included military and predominantly criminal ones ('gangsterfist' for wing chun anyone? Xing Yi?).

I would guess that the vast majority had weapons (a staff must be one of the most common... it wouldn't have necessarily have been a farm implement - tho there'd be no shortage of sticks for fencing, for training beans up, for propping things up, for carrying buckets etc - what about for walking with? Maybe that's where the non-herding Buddhists got it from...?!))

Okinawans used a lot of farming and fishing tools... but most of the Japanese arts use proper weapons. There were no peasant arts as peasants were forbidden from studying them.

To DJ, who suggested that the OP should follow more modern techs for training because there's no point following outdated ones, I would say that some of the old techs must still be useful and it doesn't hurt to have a healthy curiosity to find out what they were in case you can evolve your training. I can think of at least one example in my training where I discovered some older techs for training and now incorporate them in my ultramodern routine! ;) Plus, some people just like to learn about the tradition they're part of or history in general.

As for the forms question: I would think that everyone on here is right.

[Mr Punch]

Or he could just be an artistGood point: Carravaggio had a lot of fights :D And he had an amazing fist technique as rumour has it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I like the way people are making such unfounded sweeping generalizations... so here are mine!

Sure there were temple arts, but there were hundreds of arts, and included military and predominantly criminal ones ('gangsterfist' for wing chun anyone? Xing Yi?).

I would guess that the vast majority had weapons (a staff must be one of the most common... it wouldn't have necessarily have been a farm implement - tho there'd be no shortage of sticks for fencing, for training beans up, for propping things up, for carrying buckets etc - what about for walking with? Maybe that's where the non-herding Buddhists got it from...?!))

Okinawans used a lot of farming and fishing tools... but most of the Japanese arts use proper weapons. There were no peasant arts as peasants were forbidden from studying them.

To DJ, who suggested that the OP should follow more modern techs for training because there's no point following outdated ones, I would say that some of the old techs must still be useful and it doesn't hurt to have a healthy curiosity to find out what they were in case you can evolve your training. I can think of at least one example in my training where I discovered some older techs for training and now incorporate them in my ultramodern routine! ;) Plus, some people just like to learn about the tradition they're part of or history in general.

As for the forms question: I would think that everyone on here is right.

Reply]
Actually, there were plenty of Peasant arts. They were not allways banned, and even when, not allways in large areas. Plus the Chinese country side is far too remote and the military didn't have the man power to go door to door and keep a super detailed eye on every single activity a person engaged in. We can't even do that today. Look how much pot is circulating through society.

A vast majority of Chinese styles are local village arts practiced by the common people of that village. Most of it originated in the Military. Yes there were lots of Temple arts too, and those tended to be a bit more advanced due to the sheer time and resources Monks had to devote to the art, but they were not the only vastege of martial arts. The entire country was pickled in them, on all levels.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One can SPECULATE as much as one wants to on the type of training that was done centuries ago, but perhaps we should ask WHY we would want to speculate on this?

[Mr Punch]

Okinawans used a lot of farming and fishing tools... but most of the Japanese arts use proper weapons. There were no peasant arts as peasants were forbidden from studying them.


Reply]
Actually, there were plenty of Peasant arts. They were not allways banned, and even when, not allways in large areas. Plus the Chinese country side is far too remote and the military didn't have the man power to go door to door and keep a super detailed eye on every single activity a person engaged in. Reply] :rolleyes: ]


One can SPECULATE as much as one wants to on the type of training that was done centuries ago, but perhaps we should ask WHY we would want to speculate on this?
I would say that some of the old techs must still be useful and it doesn't hurt to have a healthy curiosity to find out what they were in case you can evolve your training. I can think of at least one example in my training where I discovered some older techs for training and now incorporate them in my ultramodern routine! ;) Plus, some people just like to learn about the tradition they're part of or history in general.

[Reverend Tap]

One can SPECULATE as much as one wants to on the type of training that was done centuries ago, but perhaps we should ask WHY we would want to speculate on this?

Same reason for speculating on anything: curiosity and the potential to learn something.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have no issues with learning for the sake of learning, far from that.
But as we know, many tend to try to look back to find some silly "ancient secret" or to somehow justify what they are doing right now.
Fact is, it doesn't really matter how ANY MA was trained centuries ago ( outside of curosity), all that matters as what are the best possible ways to train it right now.

[BoulderDawg]

All this talk of training for years in the basics.....Just like in everything else, music, math, etc you are going to have prodigies. Does the MA equivalent of Einstein, Mozart or even Michael Jordan need to spend years doing horse stance.

Also, I've also heard most MA is a creative art....well if this is true then we spend a lot of time trying to carbon copy Rembrant. What's wrong with new ideas...new forms being introduced into the art?

[Shaolinlueb]

whoever said the guys in the past were amazing fighters. remember that fight from the 30's between two "grandmasters"? and it looked like a school yard brawl?

[Hardwork108]

But as we know, many tend to try to look back to find some silly "ancient secret"

I don´t believe that all ancient secrets are "silly". There are past training methods that have not been grasped nor understood by modern MMA-ists because they don´t bother to look back deeply enough!

There is a Wing Chun thread going now that has a lot (not all) of people making confused comments about what it actually is....lol. The most confused comments are coming from people with zillion years of training in a zillion art "resumés".

This is Wing Chun that we are talking about in that particular thread, probably the most popular kung fu style in the world. And yet chi sao which is a standard training aspect of this art is so "misunderstood" by many of this forum´s "kung fu" experts.

The answers for their questions lie in the past and not in the future!

[Of course, there are sifus in that thread who know what chi sao is and have explained it, but yet the confusion continues......]


or to somehow justify what they are doing right now.
Perhaps if more people bothered to understand their kung fu then they would comprehend the "justification" that you talk about.



Fact is, it doesn't really matter how ANY MA was trained centuries ago ( outside of curosity), all that matters as what are the best possible ways to train it right now.

It seems that many kung fu fighters are doing very badly nowadays because "the best possible way to train now" does not combine very well with the TCMA they are practicing!

I think that it is very arrogant to assume or imply that we know everything about kung fu training and that we do so better than the past masters.

[taai gihk yahn]

II think that it is very arrogant to assume or imply that we know everything about kung fu training and that we do so better than the past masters.
you fall back to that train of thought, but it is inappropriate;

first, off, no one will ever know everything about anything; all learning is open-ended; over time, one's understanding of one's art / practice deepens in a way that is both simple and profound at the same time;

second, it is not a question of thinking that one does something worse or better than "past masters"; unless that so-called master is standing in front of you, there is no way of knowing just how legitimate that ascribed mastery really is - Chinese written and oral history is, in regards to TCMA. highly fluid and often suspect; heck, even the Chinese can't agree on the authenticity of many styles' "origin" story; honestly, unless one actually touched hands with a given "master" one really can't say much beyond repeating what one has been told;

third, as far as the material itself goes: it is firmly up to each individual to research, investigate, critique, and constantly re-assess what one is doing; depending on what one has been taught and how, one may or may not be able to "rediscover" what is contained within one's art on a deep level; assuming an undiluted transmission of the system from teacher to student, while one can look to one's teacher or ancestors for inspiration and guidance, ultimately it's up to you to manifest the art; as such, one needs to be free of comparative thinking, in terms of thinking one is "better" than ones teachers, and conversely that one will never be "as good" as they were; each generation contains the potential for mastery, but that mastery is not comparative - it is highly individualized - otherwise, it's not mastery, it's an attempt to simply copy what one thinks is the "right" way of doing things; mastery ultimately is the spontaneous manifestation of the principles that one embodies - at that point, discussions of arrogance and humility are irrelevant;

[golden arhat]

There is a Wing Chun thread going now that has a lot (not all) of people making confused comments about what it actually is....lol. The most confused comments are coming from people with zillion years of training in a zillion art "resumés".
.

maybe you havent looked into it deeply enough maybe you havenmt understood they have been trainign for a zillion years remember? maybe its YOU who doesnt understand or YOU who is confused ????


how long have you been training for again?

what gives you the rigt to decide who has the real stuff and who hasn't?
what gives you the right to decide who is confused and who isnt confused

calling everyone else confused and unelightened are classic signs of delusional paranoia
very often calling everyone else confused and assuring everyoe that your right as opposed to the rest of the world, is a reflection on your own confusion
let me make one thing clear YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL





(and yes i lied about having you on ignore your too much fun to argue with)

[golden arhat]

I think that it is very arrogant to assume or imply that we know everything about kung fu training and that we do so better than the past masters.

oh the irony:rolleyes:

i supppose isaac newton knew more about physics than modern day physicists correct?

oh so thats why we're sterilising wounds with rose water? and brushing our teeth with honey, those tudor kings were so smart! :rolleyes:

the trend of knowledge is to progress not to regress, we know more abotu fighting and warfare and everything! than people from the past did simply by default!

[Kansuke]

calling everyone else confused and unelightened are classic signs of delusional paranoia


Too true!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have no issue with "Standing on the shoulders of giants", I do have issues with "just standing there" and doing nothing else.
I do have issues with ignoring what those "giants" did to become "giants", which is probably the only reason to study the history of the MA, to remind ourselves just how those "giants" became "giants" and THAT si what we should emulate.

[bawang]

i dont know why people are "speculating" about super secret lost ancient ways of kung fu trainging
ok get ready k i reveal the super secret methods !!!!!omgomgogm

hindu pushups - iron bull plows field
hindu squats - squat
inverted crunch - luohan hanging bell
lifting weights - stone lock 20, 50, 100 pounds - stone slabs 100, 150, 250 pounds tied to a rope and hanging from a wooden machine
punching sand bags - bu dai gong
hitting yourself with things - iron shirt
stretching and warmup - qigong

so the ancient kung fu masters lifted a lot of weights and hit bags
liek woooooooooow lol

the trainging method have not changed, the intensity of trainging is lower.
you train kung fu an hour a day its fun, gives you happy endorphins, you get more self confidence weeeeeeee!

if you ever tried training 4 -8 hours every day for a year, or few months, u will know what it means to train "the super duper real kung fu". its not fun. its FUKIN DEPRESSING. it makes you want to kil yourself you go insane. monotonos. day after day. it never ends.

then you will also understand why many kung fu masters teach meditation. training all day like that makes you have a very bad explosive temper. very very bad temper thats all i am alloowed to say on the internet.
try training past 2 hours, try trainging when your endorphin rush runs out. its not "fun" anymore.

its a journey of pain, its the quest for revenge, to train to kil someone,to preserve the spirit of a people, to become invulnerable

[sanjuro_ronin]

i dont know why people are "speculating" about super secret lost ancient ways of kung fu trainging
ok get ready k i reveal the super secret methods !!!!!omgomgogm

hindu pushups - iron bull plows field
hindu squats - squat
inverted crunch - luohan hanging bell
lifting weights - stone lock 20, 50, 100 pounds - stone slabs 100, 150, 250 pounds tied to a rope and hanging from a wooden machine
punching sand bags - bu dai gong
hitting yourself with things - iron shirt
stretching and warmup - qigong

so the ancient kung fu masters lifted a lot of weights and hit bags
liek woooooooooow lol

get out of here with your bad self !!

[lkfmdc]

IN the field of human performance, new is better. Kung Fu people don't want you to believe that but a quick look at Olympic records will tell you that what was a world record 70 years ago won't put you in the top 5 in today's sports. We simply have better understanding of the body, how it works and what it responds to.

Specifically in the field of MMA, the long held concept of "maximum heart rate" has recently been challenged by conditioning routines where , mimmicing the longer MMA rounds, the heart beats faster for longer...

[sanjuro_ronin]

IN the field of human performance, new is better. Kung Fu people don't want you to believe that but a quick look at Olympic records will tell you that what was a world record 70 years ago won't put you in the top 5 in today's sports. We simply have better understanding of the body, how it works and what it responds to.

Specifically in the field of MMA, the long held concept of "maximum heart rate" has recently been challenged by conditioning routines where , mimmicing the longer MMA rounds, the heart beats faster for longer...

The issue of "performance enhancers" aside, there are many new sports activities and training methods that have, and some ways, revolutionzed and knocked down old time barriers to physical performance.
One simple one was the cross training in strength building exercises.
Another one is the "new" focus on anerobic conditoning and HIIT.
Also the "return" (perhaps) to the "rule of specificity".

One can argue though that, these things are actually a return to TMA training.

[bawang]

i agree kung fu people should take advantage of modern training and science. kung fu fighters did many things to win. taking opium and drinking bull testicle soup before a lei tai fight is common


but i want also preserve old "archaic" training for culture reasons.

[TenTigers]

It seems that many kung fu fighters are doing very badly nowadays because "the best possible way to train now" does not combine very well with the TCMA they are practicing!

No, I think it's simply that many Kung-Fu schools are behind a few steps, and are slowly butsurely catching up. You see more nad more Kung-Fu schools going the way opf MMA schools by including more sparring, pad drills, grappling and muay thai training techniques into their curriculum.
Oh, and BTW-it's not just Kung-Fu schools. Many schools from all different styles from Jiu-Jitsu to Shotokan, etc were resistant to change at first.

It took a long time before bell bottoms made it into the Sears catalogue.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i agree kung fu people should take advantage of modern training and science. kung fu fighters did many things to win. taking opium and drinking bull testicle soup before a lei tai fight is common

but i want also preserve old "archaic" training for culture reasons.

Many of the old "archaic" stuff, if proven to be applicable to this day and age, should still be done, IF applicable to the goals one is pursuing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, I think it's simply that many Kung-Fu schools are behind a few steps, and are slowly butsurely catching up. You see more nad more Kung-Fu schools going the way opf MMA schools by including more sparring, pad drills, grappling and muay thai training techniques into their curriculum.
Oh, and BTW-it's not just Kung-Fu schools. Many schools from all different styles from Jiu-Jitsu to Shotokan, etc were resistant to change at first.

It took a long time before bell bottoms made it into the Sears catalogue.

As we know, supplementary work ( bags, pads and such) were the cornerstone of TMA training, why they stopped being so is, truly, hard to fathom.

[bawang]

because the best kung fu masters died in the taiping rebellion and the boxer rebellion, most(not all) that is left are flower performance schools

[sanjuro_ronin]

because the best kung fu masters died in the taiping rebellion and the boxer rebellion, most(not all) that is left are flower performance schools

If they died, I guess they weren't that good.
:D

[bawang]

:( saaaaaaaad face

>:O VERY ANGRY FACE!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Persoanlly, I think the consumer is to blame to a large degree.
TMA has taken a hit, regardless of wither it was Chinese, Japanese or Korean.
A combination of LARPing students, bad and over commercialized instructors has created the modern myth of how TMA were done in the past ie:
Forms and controlled contact paddy-cake sparring.
As we do study the history of the MA many things are a mess but the one constant is that the greats fought and fought lots and trained hard, they focuses as much ( and at times more so) on attributes training ( speed, strength, endurance) as they did on techniques and "forms".

[bawang]

its the flooding of students in the 1900's.
the manchus finally unbanned martial arts, there was suddenly too many students, cant teach properly.
before you teach 5 to 10 ish, suddenly 200 ish students maybe even more!!! the tempation to accept them for money is too much, who wouldnt? but quality of training goes down dramatically
combined with the fact that all the best sifus took their whole schools to fight in the boxer rebellion, creating a vacum , a niche for lesser skilled people to take over

[sanjuro_ronin]

its the flooding of students in the 1900's.
the manchus finally unbanned martial arts, there was suddenly too many students, cant teach properly
combined with the fact that all the best sifus took their whole schools to fight in the boxer rebellion, creating a vacum , a niche for lesser skilled people to take over

Doesn't explain the other asian TMA.

[bawang]

for karate, fukanoshi founder of shotokan(i speeled him wrong) ruined karate. he created the whole mcdonald dojo format that other styles emulate.

there was also a huge increase in students in karate and taekwondo/ tang so do btw so it does explain, all of these asian martial arts went commercial business

there is also the emphasis on forms.(i dont like beating off dead donkeys but it feels good to discuss)
in 5 years training tai ji quan i have learned about 20 techniques.

[sanjuro_ronin]

for karate, fukanoshi founder of shotokan(i speeled him wrong) ruined karate. he created the whole mcdonald dojo format that other styles emulate.

there was also a huge increase in students in karate and taekwondo/ tang so do btw so it does explain

I think you mean that Funakoshi's son "ruined" Shotokan and even that is debatable.
As for the Korean systems, the greed of the head people involved with TKS is well documented and their fetish for sport TKD ruined a prefectly good MA.
As for judo, while it still remains a highly effective MA, its over emphasis on the sport version created huge gaps that are still trying to be filled.

[bawang]

i think karate is still doing good. uechi ryu goju ryu shorin ryu still are good. decent styles from china.
shotokan will be shotokan tho
i really hate shotokan though because they train northern long range kung fu like southern kung fu its totally messed up and wrong, and they have a huge number of forms that are useless other than bassai and naihanchi

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think karate is still doing good. uechi ryu goju ryu shorin ryu still are good. decent styles from china.
shotokan will be shotokan tho
i really hate shotokan though because they train northern long range kung fu like southern kung fu its totally messed up and wrong, and they have a huge number of forms that are useless other than bassai and naihanchi

Machida seems to be doing fine with it ;)

[Kansuke]

if you ever tried training 4 -8 hours every day for a year, or few months, u will know what it means to train "the super duper real kung fu". its not fun. its FUKIN DEPRESSING. it makes you want to kil yourself you go insane.



Now try doing that while periodically starving yourself, attending classes, and working two part time jobs.

[taai gihk yahn]

they have a huge number of forms that are useless other than bassai and naihanchi

agreed! if you had to have only two karate kata, bassai and naihanchi will give you a large body of options from which to draw

[sanjuro_ronin]

agreed! if you had to have only two karate kata, bassai and naihanchi will give you a large body of options from which to draw

Forms curriculm serve a purpose, as we all know.

[taai gihk yahn]

Forms curriculm serve a purpose, as we all know.

well, TBH, I am not a big fan of forms per se in terms of developing fighting skill; it's more about the concepts / principles those two forms delineate in terms of moving from long to short to trapping to grappling range and the way they "propose" to handle certain contingencies therein that I find interesting; but you'd need to go beyond the form and actually train the technique; or you could study MT, BJJ and wrestling and be just as happy!

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, TBH, I am not a big fan of forms per se in terms of developing fighting skill; it's more about the concepts / principles those two forms delineate in terms of moving from long to short to trapping to grappling range and the way they "propose" to handle certain contingencies therein that I find interesting; but you'd need to go beyond the form and actually train the technique; or you could study MT, BJJ and wrestling and be just as happy!

You can see by how a form is done, any form really, if the person has ever contemplated using ANY part of it for fighting or at least doing the form in a "fighting way".

[taai gihk yahn]

You can see by how a form is done, any form really, if the person has ever contemplated using ANY part of it for fighting or at least doing the form in a "fighting way".

is doing a form in a "fighting way" the same as a doing a gal in a "family way"?

[sanjuro_ronin]

is doing a form in a "fighting way" the same as a doing a gal in a "family way"?

I'll never tell.

[David Jamieson]

agreed! if you had to have only two karate kata, bassai and naihanchi will give you a large body of options from which to draw

...that and a couple of california rolls with a miso soup and I'd be full!

mmmm sushi... lol j/k, but not really...:p

[WinterPalm]

One can SPECULATE as much as one wants to on the type of training that was done centuries ago, but perhaps we should ask WHY we would want to speculate on this?

I think the Canadian has a point!

Let's figure out the safest and most effective way to train, and do it!

[TenTigers]

I would choose sanchin and kusanku

[David Jamieson]

is doing a form in a "fighting way" the same as a doing a gal in a "family way"?

is the love for a fine cigar the same as the love for ones wife? :p

[taai gihk yahn]

sanchin and kusanku
gesundheit;

but seriously - why so? not doubting the choice, it's a very reasonable one, just curious why (e.g. - naihanchi, the way I "interpret" it has tons of implications for push-hands, so that's why I like it; bassai for similar reasons)


is the love for a fine cigar the same as the love for ones wife? :p
sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

[Hardwork108]

is the love for a fine cigar the same as the love for ones wife? :p

Depend´s on whose wife we are talking about and wether she likes a fine "cigar";)

[Hardwork108]

for karate, fukanoshi founder of shotokan(i speeled him wrong) ruined karate. he created the whole mcdonald dojo format that other styles emulate.

I was under the impression that the commercialization of Shotokan happened after Funakoshi´s death. Funakoshi was not known for his commercialism and some of his followers including Egami (his disciple) separated and formed the Shotokai while the rest of the group came together under Japan Karate Association (JKA), under Masatoshi Nakayama).

Nakayama created what was to become the modern shotokan karate of today. Even the so called commercial JKA created some great Japanese fighters/instructors earlier in their history. The late Keinosuke Enoeda being one such person tough, as nails.

The tournament fighting of the 1960s, 1970s and the 1980s was a lot tougher than later on in Shotokan´s history.

Even so having seen plenty of Shotokan and its practitioners I believe that if taught properly (that is, sticking to the format of the 1970s), it is a great self defense art.

[bawang]

i read in a chinese magazine funakoshi was against sparring, teaching only forms thats the reason i said i think he ruined karate. is it true or is magazine wrong?

[TenTigers]

sanchin for gung-faht, kusanku for kuen faht

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanchin for gung-faht, kusanku for kuen faht

Too bad Shotokan doesn't have Seiunchin, or sanchin for that matter ;)
I'd be hard pressed to choose just one Kata.
It's truly a personal preference.

[taai gihk yahn]

in regards to shotokan, it was originally intended, as far as I understand, to fit into the Japanese educational system, and was therefore modeled after judo in terms of curriculum structure, advancement, etc.; whether this constitutes commercial, can't really say; as far as Funakoshi himself - if you notice a lot of the pics of him demonstrating bunkai, he's got that middle knuckle extended on the punching hand while he's holding the uke's arm with his other (and usually the uke has this look to total terror on his face, LOL) and he's not in some exaggerated stance; so somewhere along the line it got "defanged"...

[sanjuro_ronin]

in regards to shotokan, it was originally intended, as far as I understand, to fit into the Japanese educational system, and was therefore modeled after judo in terms of curriculum structure, advancement, etc.; whether this constitutes commercial, can't really say; as far as Funakoshi himself - if you notice a lot of the pics of him demonstrating bunkai, he's got that middle knuckle extended on the punching hand while he's holding the uke's arm with his other (and usually the uke has this look to total terror on his face, LOL) and he's not in some exaggerated stance; so somewhere along the line it got "defanged"...

When they JKA decided to go "sport and commercial" it got defanged, hence the original split by the Shotokai group.
ANyone that has read "karate, my way of life" or whatever its called by Funakoshi knows that GF was all about the practical application of Karate, though Motobu was far more "notorious" in that regard.

[David Jamieson]

take one kyukoshin guy and one shotokan guy.

pit them against each other and see who walks out and who limps out.

finished *slaps dirt from hands*

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

take one kyukoshin guy and one shotokan guy.

pit them against each other and see who walks out and who limps out.

finished *slaps dirt from hands*

:)

Not a fair comparison, they typical kyokushin guy trains to fight full contact, the typicla shotokan guy doesn't.
What you need to compare is the kyokushin guy VS a shotokan guy that ALSO trains full contact, and I know some and they are very,very good, comparable to kyokushin and in some regards, better.

[David Jamieson]

Not a fair comparison, they typical kyokushin guy trains to fight full contact, the typicla shotokan guy doesn't.
What you need to compare is the kyokushin guy VS a shotokan guy that ALSO trains full contact, and I know some and they are very,very good, comparable to kyokushin and in some regards, better.

mas oyama sprang forth from the crap fest that was shotokan.
shotokan has refused to advance at all, it is the same crap now as it was when they started it. a virtually useless system of "karate".

I'd rather do jumping jacks.

it is a totally fair comparison. kyokushin is the advancment of sport karate, shotokan is the stagnation of it.

from the get go it (shotokan system) was defanged and flawed.

been there, dropped it. lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

mas oyama sprang forth from the crap fest that was shotokan.
shotokan has refused to advance at all, it is the same crap now as it was when they started it. a virtually useless system of "karate".

I'd rather do jumping jacks.

it is a totally fair comparison. kyokushin is the advancment of sport karate, shotokan is the stagnation of it.

from the get go it (shotokan system) was defanged and flawed.

been there, dropped it. lol

You and Terence and Dale should get together and write a book about one sided generalizations.
:D

To say that Shotokan was, from the very beginning. defanged and flawed is wrong.

[David Jamieson]

in my opinion, it was and when mas oyama wanted to take it up standards wise, they rejected him and maintained their thing.

from my point of view, that makes shotokan the flawed and "wrong" system.

it may have started as a great intention, but look at what it is.

is it a combat system? or do you have to go outside of it to actually learn that from either a sportive or realistic sense?

it is the ultimate mcdojo 9 year old black belt factory style.

whereas, where Mas took it was off the map.

check this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4474619/essential-karate-mas-oyama-

compare it to what you find in shotokan. shotokan has stripped all the value out of karate and that's why people who want to learn real karate run to kyokushin or okinawan styles.

every shotokan tourney you go to will be completely made up of forms, no contact with other schools outside of shotokan and no free form fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

in my opinion, it was and when mas oyama wanted to take it up standards wise, they rejected him and maintained their thing.

from my point of view, that makes shotokan the flawed and "wrong" system.

it may have started as a great intention, but look at what it is.

is it a combat system? or do you have to go outside of it to actually learn that from either a sportive or realistic sense?

it is the ultimate mcdojo 9 year old black belt factory style.

whereas, where Mas took it was off the map.

check this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4474619/essential-karate-mas-oyama-

compare it to what you find in shotokan. shotokan has stripped all the value out of karate and that's why people who want to learn real karate run to kyokushin or okinawan styles.

every shotokan tourney you go to will be completely made up of forms, no contact with other schools outside of shotokan and no free form fighting.

You went to Northern Karate, didn't you?
LOL !!

[David Jamieson]

You went to Northern Karate, didn't you?
LOL !!

nope. old school jka-er from the way back when machine.

my dad took me out and i went isshin for 4 years after that til my sensei split town.
then off to tkd for another 4 years, while in juvy boxing and hs g-r wrestling team as well as fencing, which later led to straight up kick boxing, then nothing for a 5 year window or so, then black tiger kungfu and more modernistic stuff which I've been into since about '94 and still do daily and with a small group on a 1x a week basis.

I love martial arts. All of them have merit. I just find that some have less merit than others and sometimes i can be quite opinionated about it. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

nope. old school jka-er from the way back when machine.

my dad took me out and i went isshin for 4 years after that til my sensei split town.
then off to tkd for another 4 years, while in juvy boxing and hs g-r wrestling team as well as fencing, which later led to straight up kick boxing, then nothing for a 5 year window or so, then black tiger kungfu and more modernistic stuff which I've been into since about '94 and still do daily and with a small group on a 1x a week basis.

I love martial arts. All of them have merit. I just find that some have less merit than others and sometimes i can be quite opinionated about it. :)

Well, I don't argue how bad most Shotokan has become, I just don't apply blanket statements as easy as some of you do.
I know too many Shotokan guys that would kick my ass to say that Shotokan sucks the sweat of a dead man's balls.

[bawang]

one thing learning shotokan i do sppreciate is the focus on basics. this made me trealize my mitsake with kung fu and i started focus on basics.

about kung fu training in the past, how come people keep saying lei tai fights were exaggerated? do peoples really believe in the past, someone who is insane psychotic obsessive compulsive train for 10 years, or someone who is a robber and kiled amny people, sneak into the city to fight on lei tai for money, you get on a lei tai with them with no rules no referee,, they are going to go eaasy on u?
that every fight is gonna be like the youtube video of those old men beechslapping each other?
do u really think so?
they take you out, and i dont mean to dinner

we today always think people from yesterday are just like us, i think that it not tru

[sanjuro_ronin]

one thing learning shotokan i do sppreciate is the focus on basics. this made me trealize my mitsake with kung fu and i started focus on basics.

about kung fu training in the past, how come people keep saying lei tai fights were exaggerated? do peoples really believe in the past, someone who is insane psychotic obsessive compulsive train for 10 years, you get on a lei tai with them with no rules no referee,, they are going to go eaasy on u?
they take you out, and i dont mean to dinner

I don't know if we can say they trained harder, I mean, they had jobs and had to work to eat just like us, they typically weren't as healthy either.
I think that pro fighters nowadays probaly trained more and better than "obssesive" people in the past.

[MasterKiller]

Don't forget nutrition. Have you seen those skinny Chinese guys? I don't care how much you trained, a modern athlete with a decent diet is probably stronger on that factor alone.

[bawang]

there were always professional fighters in china.
in the song dynasty the lei tai can have a lot of prize moneys.
plus no way to test for performance enhancing drugs like opium and special plants

of course modern athlete can beat them, but a average kung fu hobby guy today will get ass raped, that was what i was trying to say

and skinny starving chinaman stereostpye is just lame man ,chinese people eat meat too when we dont have famine or wars man.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't forget nutrition. Have you seen those skinny Chinese guys? I don't care how much you trained, a modern athlete with a decent diet is probably stronger on that factor alone.

I am sure they had big guys back then too, but typically I think you are probably right.
We kind of need to focus on the average practioner when we go "comparing" things, the elite will always be just that, regardless, better to focus on the "common man" to get a better picture of how things were.are.

[bawang]

I am sure they had big guys back then too, but typically I think you are probably right.
We kind of need to focus on the average practioner when we go "comparing" things, the elite will always be just that, regardless, better to focus on the "common man" to get a better picture of how things were.are.


other than dedicated trainers i dont think common man in ancient china trained kung fu. the elite fighters will dominate, dont forget they travel throughout the entire country.
about being strong, i saw photos of qing dynasty kung fu people, some of them were HUGE
dont forget in song and tang dynasty there were a lot of mixing with arab turk and persian immigrants, there were some huge muscled freaks with yellow and red hair back then

the majority of chinese people were farmers, and trust me farmers dont have time to learn martial arts. farming alone is a 10 hour work. my village tracing ancestor plates back to 300 years not a single person was a military guy or martial arts guy.

[lkfmdc]

I am sure they had big guys back then too, but typically I think you are probably right.



CTS was around 5' 6" and at prime was around 160. He was, for his generation, considered "big"... just as an example

[sanjuro_ronin]

CTS was around 5' 6" and at prime was around 160. He was, for his generation, considered "big"... just as an example

I am sure there were bigger.
I am sure there were freaks just like everywhere else in the world.
Just best not to focus on them.

[lkfmdc]

I am sure there were bigger.



NEW RULE, whenver Sanjuro says the word "bigger" it has to be with a pic attached :D

[bawang]

i was trying to say competition back then are much more fierce than competition now in kung fu tournaments(not talking about sanda by the way, i man amaature kung fu tournaments)

i dont know how size got into the convosation, i think modern athlete can overpower outwrestle them, but if in a punching match i dont know who can win

[sanjuro_ronin]

NEW RULE, whenver Sanjuro says the word "bigger" it has to be with a pic attached :D

LOL !
Indeed:

[sanjuro_ronin]

i was trying to say competition back then are much more fierce than competition now in kung fu tournaments(not talking about sanda by the way, i man amaature kung fu tournaments)

i dont know how size got into the convosation, i think modern athlete can overpower outwrestle them, but if in a punching match i dont know who can win

You base that on what?

[bawang]

im basing that on if you punch things for 10 years and you hands grow to size of a big pot maybe you have a good chance of winning
you do karate you know traditional conditioning. iron head iron shirt. i think thats better than modern conditioning, because modern athlete dont condition they hands they use glove
and when i was at yangzhou cultural center in my city i heard a lot of story from old peopel about how this guy very tough that guy very tough

[sanjuro_ronin]

im basing that on if you punch things for 10 years and you hands grow to size of a big pot maybe you have a good chance of winning
and when i was at yangzhou cultural center in my city i heard a lot of story from old peopel about how this guy very tough that guy very tough

LOL !
Good base !

[bawang]

ya man lol

seriously though, modern science training has benefits and flaws.
its not like every single kung fu fighter were improverished starving 100 pound sticks slapping each other. do u really believe that

i heavily bruised my hand and went to the doctor i was like what do you mean just put ice on it???!?!
chinese medicine does stuff western medicine cant give yet. tiger bone paste make your fist hard like steel dit da oil makes bruise go away under 10 min!!!
western medicine dont have that man
and i find traditional conditioning to be superior, my own opinion

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya man lol

seriously though, modern science training has benefits and flaws.
i heavily bruised my hand and went to the doctor i was like what do you mean just put ice on it???!?!
chinese medicine does stuff western medicine cant give yet. tiger bone paste make your fist hard like steel dit da oil makes bruise go away under 10 min!!!
western medicine dont have that man
and i find traditional conditioning to be superior, my own opinion

Don't know if you've seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulXzfJq3Dd0

[TenTigers]

what about Shotokan people like Kanazawa, Nishiyama, etc? pretty hardcore dudes in their day. JKA is known for pretty high standards. Go into your experience more David.

[bawang]

yeah man i saw it long time ago that guy is good
thats why i think traditional training is still good imagine him go on a sanda match :eek: surprised face!!!!

i think there is not enough training of basic conditioning today, not enough head and iron shirt training, those are basic conditioing skills that many (not all) people modern kung fu dont have

[sanjuro_ronin]

what about Shotokan people like Kanazawa, Nishiyama, etc? pretty hardcore dudes in their day. JKA is known for pretty high standards. Go into your experience more David.

Kanazawa was very good, Nishiyama...well...there are mixed views.
Nakayama was a teacher more than a fighter per say.
Frank Smith was very good, Tony Tulleners (SP?), Miyazaki, and some others I can't name now.
Kubota too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah man i saw it long time ago that guy is good
thats why i think traditional training can be good imagine him go on a sanda match :eek: surprised face!!!!

I don't know if he can fight but if he can, **** !

[bawang]

to demonstrate spirit of traditioinal kung fu i am going to log off and go punch myself in the face and punch bags
good a bye

[David Jamieson]

what about Shotokan people like Kanazawa, Nishiyama, etc? pretty hardcore dudes in their day. JKA is known for pretty high standards. Go into your experience more David.

Every org will have one or two standouts.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am sure there were bigger.
I am sure there were freaks just like everywhere else in the world.
Just best not to focus on them.

well, Yang Lou Chan was ~6' tall, from what I understand; Dong Hai Chuan was also a big boy; take that and add some not insignificant skill, of course you will be "invincible" in context of TCMA at the time...

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, Yang Lou Chan was ~6' tall, from what I understand; Dong Hai Chuan was also a big boy; take that and add some not insignificant skill, of course you will be "invincible" in context of TCMA at the time...

Yep, all the more reason to "ignore" that stand outs.
How many Fedors are there in Sambo ?

[TenTigers]

Kanazawa recounted a story when he was training in the College teams-they were punching the makiwara, and his knuckle split open.
So he goes to the hospital and gets it stitched up and bandaged. He comes back to his class, and his Sensei looks at him and says,"..well?"
He responds, "Yes, Sensei!" and goes back to the makiwara, hitting it , blood soaking his bandages.
That is an iron will.
I have a picture of him, in his fifties, shirt off doing sanchin. He is heavily muscled and ripped to the bone. Awesome.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kanazawa recounted a story when he was training in the College teams-they were punching the makiwara, and his knuckle split open.
So he goes to the hospital and gets it stitched up and bandaged. He comes back to his class, and his Sensei looks at him and says,"..well?"
He responds, "Yes, Sensei!" and goes back to the makiwara, hitting it , blood soaking his bandages.
That is an iron will.
I have a picture of him, in his fifties, shirt off doing sanchin. He is heavily muscled and ripped to the bone. Awesome.

Yeah, sounds like Kanazawa.
And he wasn't alone.
A different breed they were, of course they all viewed Karate in a way that very few view it today, and I mean VERY FEW.
He was thin and wiry, no bulk in his muscles, just pure ripped.
I am sure that makiwara became his, no one wanted it !
LOL !

[TenTigers]

http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/kanazawa/index.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

Enoeda is another one.

[Hardwork108]

ya man lol

seriously though, modern science training has benefits and flaws.
its not like every single kung fu fighter were improverished starving 100 pound sticks slapping each other. do u really believe that

i heavily bruised my hand and went to the doctor i was like what do you mean just put ice on it???!?!
chinese medicine does stuff western medicine cant give yet. tiger bone paste make your fist hard like steel dit da oil makes bruise go away under 10 min!!!
western medicine dont have that man
and i find traditional conditioning to be superior, my own opinion

I agree!:)

[Hardwork108]

i think there is not enough training of basic conditioning today, not enough head and iron shirt training, those are basic conditioing skills that many (not all) people modern kung fu dont have

Very true! :)

[Hardwork108]

http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/kanazawa/index.htm

Thanks very interesting link. Kanazawa and the late Keinosuke Enoeda have apparently had fights with challengers "outside" the competition arena.

Other (Hardcore) Shotokan legends include Mikio Yahara:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvG8r9wPcbc

And the late and great Sensei Asai:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3Jrp3N_5xU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYnWq-4_50s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYYQauucQA8&feature=related

I don´t know about Asai but Mikio Yahara has a reputation of "mixing it" with Yakuza gangsters.

[Hardwork108]

Whoops. I guess that was too much karate for a kung fu forum.:o

[SteveLau]

I have just finished reading a book titled "Wong Fei Hung Authentic Tale" a few days ago. It was published from Mainland China in 2005. Coincidentally, there is another very similar book written by a student from Master Wong Fei Hung's lineage in Hong Kong. I am now one quarter way into reading it. So far I would say both books are very good. According to the training information in these two books, and the knowledge I have on external and internal CMA systems, I would say that form training was common in the first two to three years of training. Then it was followed by application and sparring then. There are good reasons for such training program. For example, it will instill good forms, stamina, strength, and patience in the student. But it is too slow in progress in today's training methodology. I would suggest sparring (not full blown) exercises will begin in the second year of training.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Hardwork108]

I have just finished reading a book titled "Wong Fei Hung Authentic Tale" a few days ago. It was published from Mainland China in 2005. Coincidentally, there is another very similar book written by a student from Master Wong Fei Hung's lineage in Hong Kong.I am now one quarter way into reading it. So far I would say both books are very good.

Very interesting. Do you know if any of those books are published in English? I would love to buy and read at least one of them.


According to the training information in these two books, and the knowledge I have on external and internal CMA systems, I would say that form training was common in the first two to three years of training. Then it was followed by application and sparring then. There are good reasons for such training program. For example, it will instill good forms, stamina, strength, and patience in the student.

I agree. Nowadays people do not understand nor appreciate the forms training and other traditional aspects of kung fu.



But it is too slow in progress in today's training methodology. I would suggest sparring (not full blown) exercises will begin in the second year of training.
I suppose that if the student has good steady progress and (depending on style) then there is no problem.:)

HW108

[Shaolinlueb]

this jsut in. I used my Hyper Dimensional Resonator (http://www.hdrusers.com/hdr_pic.htm) to travel back in time to view kung fu training in 300 ad. I was greated with an ass whooping by a ten foot tall guan yu. there i was trilled over and over in wu bu chuan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPPgTUL6SY4). then all we did was wu bu chuan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPPgTUL6SY4) applications. i asked him about doing weapons, and he laughed saying we only use qi blasts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3wzR74Cg4s).

then guan yu showed me this qi technique (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXFYLFZbWjk&NR=1).

[SteveLau]

Hardwork108,

The book that I am reading was published in 2007. Both are written in Chinese. And they are much the same with regards to the tale of Master Wong Fei Wong, because the information comes largely from the same sources. The later one though has more coverage of the lineage's martial art detail. It would be good to have an English translation of the books published. So that more people can enjoy them.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[MasterKiller]

this jsut in. I used my Hyper Dimensional Resonator (http://www.hdrusers.com/hdr_pic.htm) to travel back in time to view kung fu training in 300 ad. I was greated with an ass whooping by a ten foot tall guan yu. there i was trilled over and over in wu bu chuan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPPgTUL6SY4). then all we did was wu bu chuan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPPgTUL6SY4) applications. i asked him about doing weapons, and he laughed saying we only use qi blasts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3wzR74Cg4s).

then guan yu showed me this qi technique (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXFYLFZbWjk&NR=1).

Wu Bu Chuan was invented in like 1956.

[bawang]

Yep, all the more reason to "ignore" that stand outs.
How many Fedors are there in Sambo ?

hi, yang luchan did not "stand out"
the imperial officer test pick out the people who are unusually tall and strong, every single guy was like him. if you look at old photos of shaolin monks and imperial officers a lot look completely ripped and huge
on a documentary cctv it said in the tang dynasty if you were below 6 feet tall you have no chance of passing officer test

i think there is also a misconseption in kung fu that with skill can beat stronger openent. thats not true. the stronger man always wins. "10 pound more strength beats ten techniques" kung fu is brute strength

[sanjuro_ronin]

hi, yang luchan did not "stand out"
the imperial officer test pick out the people who are unusually tall and strong, every single guy was like him. if you look at old photos of shaolin monks and imperial officers a lot look completely ripped and huge
on a documentary cctv it said in the tang dynasty if you were below 6 feet tall you have no chance of passing officer test

i think there is also a misconseption in kung fu that with skill can beat stronger openent. thats not true. the stronger man always wins. "10 pound more strength beats ten techniques" kung fu is brute strength

I didn't mean the visual stand outs, I meant those that are exceptional, the "creme de la creme" if you prefer.

[bawang]

i thiunk in kung fu unsually strong is the same as "creme de le creme"

[sanjuro_ronin]

in kung fu unsually strong is the same as creme de le creme

I think you are missing my point, you need to "judge" a system and its training methods based on the AVERAGE practioner, not the exceptional ones.

[bawang]

i know and i want to say standards need to impprove. if sifus dont depend on teaching kung fu for money too much then they can choose students more carefuly

the problem also is those top super duper awesome elite people taught very few people and chose students carefully, there is no exceptional guy every single student was just as good, now days standard is low
a style with many people noremal, a single family linage with thousands and thousands of students is rediculous
and even with thousands of students, after 100 years the style has not progressed changed at all it has fossilized

[Shaolinlueb]

Wu Bu Chuan was invented in like 1956.

yeah and that was part of the joke :p

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork108,

The book that I am reading was published in 2007. Both are written in Chinese. And they are much the same with regards to the tale of Master Wong Fei Wong, because the information comes largely from the same sources. The later one though has more coverage of the lineage's martial art detail. It would be good to have an English translation of the books published. So that more people can enjoy them.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

Steve Lau,

Thank you. I will just have to wait and keep my eyes open for them. I am sure that they are both fascinating books to read.

[Hardwork108]

i think there is also a misconseption in kung fu that with skill can beat stronger openent. thats not true. the stronger man always wins. "10 pound more strength beats ten techniques" kung fu is brute strength

I have also heard that. The example given to me was that no matter how technically skillful a child may be, an adult will always beat him in a fight.

[Lucas]

some of the best never taught or taught very little. then its like that in almost any culture. not all warriors choose to share, many take their skills to the grave.