Are there American Masters that "adopt" disciples?

[wetwonder]

I've been doing some reading about the distinctions between a "student" and a "disciple." And also the distinctions between different types of "disciples." Is there any occurance in the U.S. of a master adopting a student as an actual disciple, in the traditional meaning of that term? Also, are there masters that decidely don't adopt disciples?

[BoulderDawg]

That's an odd question.

I have no idea what you mean by "traditional". I'm assuming you mean that a family gives up a child to be raised by the "master".

I wouldn't rule out that any crazy s such as that is going on today but if it is someone needs to be in the "Busted" thread.

[Songshan]

I would say there is a fine distinction between student and disciple. To me student is someone that trains and attends classes; no formal commitment...maybe even takes breaks from training. A Disciple is someone who commits their life to continuous training and their teacher. I would say this includes helping your teacher in times of need or providing care if needed.

That being said, I would like to think American Masters have "disciples" but they are just not formally advertised as they are in Shaolin. Some Shaolin masters adopt disciples and other don't. Maybe they don't want to deal with the drama. I have seen some American Masters develop a discipleship like relationship with a student, open a school together and only for it to end up on bad terms if the business venture didn't work out. There are so many martial art masters in America it's kind of hard to point who does and who doesn't adopt disciples. If anyone knows who does feel free to educate me. :D

Great Topic

[YouKnowWho]

Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.

[wetwonder]

I'm speaking hear of original asian-lineage bonafide generational masters from China that teach in the U.S. Masters that were themselves disciples of their Sifus back in the old country.

My curiousity stems from what I'm perceiving as difficulty being a serious student within a student population that has many types that in the old country would probably have been rejected by a traditional asian master. Egos, contradicting the master, hostility towards others. I wonder, whether in this climate in the U.S., if serious study and serious commitment is even available by a legitimate asian-lineage master, amongst the fog of the many student types that pay the monthly fees.

[David Jamieson]

Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.

lol.







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[wetwonder]

Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.

I'm speaking of the traditional bona-fide masters who held respect, honor and ethics above all else. So "attacking" in that context would not happen.

[EarthDragon]

wet wonder,

I've been doing some reading about the distinctions between a "student" and a "disciple." And also the distinctions between different types of "disciples." Is there any occurance in the U.S. of a master adopting a student as an actual disciple, in the traditional meaning of that term? Also, are there masters that decidely don't adopt disciples?

in all honesty there is nothing really different with open or close door students other than a few things...a commitment, learning extra's, formalities and to carry on a lineage.

to me a disciple is one who has gained total trust and has proven himself time and time again. if this particular student is ready then they can become part of the family sort to say of one particular lineage or branch.

for your last question it is up to the master. i.e having been a student longer does not qualify them so it is the choice of the last generation holder.

[TenTigers]

Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.

cool. Light the insence, put the kettle on, and hand out the lai-see!
I'm gonna get me some disciples!!!!:D

[YouKnowWho]

I'm speaking of the traditional bona-fide masters who held respect, honor and ethics above all else. So "attacking" in that context would not happen.
If someone bad mouth about your teacher, your teacher may send you to knock on his door and ask for a friendly match so you can defeat him to shut him up. I'll not call that "attack" but it's pretty much the same thing IMO. The nice thing about this is, in the old time no matter who gets hurt in that friendly match, the law will not get involved. In today's environment, you teacher may get into law suit and that's why the disciples are no longer be desired in US.

[wetwonder]

If someone bad mouth about your teacher, your teacher may send you to knock on his door and ask for a friendly match so you can beat the sh!t of him. I'll not call that "attack" but it's pretty much the same thing IMO.

A master worth learning under would be too humble/ego-less to do that.

[EarthDragon]

I disagree, I have been told stories of my sifu's sifu having his students challange other schools students to see how thier skills compare... This was an often thing.

My first teacher sensei heri was a student of victor vega in NYC, his BB test was to walk up to a guy in central park who practiced and taught karate for free in the park for years, and say see that man over there? pointing to Victor.... hes my sensei and he wants me to fight you... I dont want to at all but I know how bad he can kick my a$$ and if i dont fight you then I have to fight him so please put your hands up...
Victor vega was a extremly humble man with no ego , but he taught the old japanese way. hard knocks

[YouKnowWho]

A master worth learning under would be too humble/ego-less to do that.
I do wish the CMA world is as peaceful as you have described.

[BoulderDawg]

I think we tend to forget sometimes that Masters are human beings too.

[YouKnowWho]

I think we tend to forget sometimes that Masters are human beings too.
Those masters that exist in the movies "Karate kid", "Star War", or "Kung Fu" TV show may not exist in the real world. In the real world those masters do go to bathroom as everybody else does.

[wetwonder]

I do wish the CMA world is as peaceful as you have described.

It tends to be that way for those who committ to it. For folks that don't, I suppose it tends the other way.

[EarthDragon]

wetwonder,
I understand your point.. but the basic reality is MA's is first martial then art... humbleness comes with wisdom. there will always be alot of "proving" going on.. especially in the olden days..

one must test his teachers abilites before one commits to that teacher for life. If I never saw my teacher fight or crossed hands with him how do I know his is good?. surely not by his humbleness or selfless ego.. while these are sought after traits or by products of confidence in ones self.. they cannot take the place of realism

[David Jamieson]

A master worth learning under would be too humble/ego-less to do that.

YOu have yet to meet a lot of the different types of sifu who are out there. :)

There is no such thing as "ego-less"...unless you are a bhodisattva, and take it from me that you would be very hard pressed to find a sifu who is that.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no such thing as "ego-less"
I agree! The word "ego-less" contradicts to our CMA training goal. The reason that we train because we want to be able to do "something" better than others. That kind "ego" will give us the motivation to continue our training. In Chinese, that's called 霸氣 (Ba Qi - rule by force). Without it, it's very difficult to be good in anything in our life.

For example, you want your girlfriend to be pretty so when you take her out, you will be proud. No matter you like it or not, that's "ego".

[EarthDragon]

youknowwho,

just a thought.. you are misusing the word Baqi.....

[wetwonder]

humbleness comes with wisdom.


Earthdragon, Really good point - thanks for that.

[wetwonder]

I agree! The reason that we train because we want to be able to do "something" better than others.


That's not the reason I train, but I can see what you're saying for folks coming from that angle.

[David Jamieson]

If you have no ego, you are classified as insane because you are disconnected from the self. ego= the "I".

this is necessary so we can tell ourselves apart from trees or birds, or other earthly things. It is sentience in a word. Self realization, ability to understand that you are an individual being.

your ego dissipates when your breath does. lol

The term "sifu" sets a person apart from the student and is in and of itself an indicator of ego in the basest sense.

If one were to have no ego, they wouldn't recognize themself as mother or daughter or brother or son or father or uncle or sifu or simo etc etc etc.

It is a mistake people make when they aspire to gain fulfillment through some activity they bring into their lives.

If you attempt to destroy your ego, you simply destroy yourself.

the ego-less are dead or crazy. :)

[wetwonder]

the ego-less are dead or crazy. :)

You make it sound like humility is not an objective as you're developing martial skills. Is that what you mean?

[YouKnowWho]

You make it sound like humility is not an objective as you're developing martial skills. Is that what you mean?
上場如老虎下場如綿羊 (Shan Chang Ru Lao Hu Xia Chang Ru Mian Yan) – You act like a tigher in the ring, you act like a sheep elsewhere.

[David Jamieson]

You make it sound like humility is not an objective as you're developing martial skills. Is that what you mean?

humility is not the objective of the lessons of martial arts.

you should be thankful to your teacher for taking you as a student and giving you knowledge you did not have previously. this is not humility, it is thankfulness and it is gratitude, which in the relationship between teacher and student is more important than student who is focused on humility.

you humble yourself when you have transgressed in a relationship and recognize your transgression.

No need to take on humility otherwise.

Should you be humble towards those who would beat you? Should you show humilty towards those who commit transgression towards you or those you love?

Practice humilty in church, in martial arts, you must strengthen your mind as well as your body and humility will not take you there.

be grateful, be respectful to your teachers, be silent when they speak to you and be there to learn when they are there to teach.

humility has nothing to do with it in context.

[Songshan]

I'm speaking hear of original asian-lineage bonafide generational masters from China that teach in the U.S. Masters that were themselves disciples of their Sifus back in the old country.

My curiousity stems from what I'm perceiving as difficulty being a serious student within a student population that has many types that in the old country would probably have been rejected by a traditional asian master. Egos, contradicting the master, hostility towards others. I wonder, whether in this climate in the U.S., if serious study and serious commitment is even available by a legitimate asian-lineage master, amongst the fog of the many student types that pay the monthly fees.

Well, it's a double edge sword really. If someone came out and said they were of original asian-lineage that would open a can of worms that would demand all sorts of proof and criticism. Look at modern shaolin and how they still face scrutiny....even though Shaolin originated in China.

I think in modern times it is still possible to to have a serious study commitment. You just have to train harder and pass up the majority of the student base that isn't committed or are casual learners.

[golden arhat]

I'm speaking of the traditional bona-fide masters who held respect, honor and ethics above all else. So "attacking" in that context would not happen.

these are few and far between


lol funny how people never want to point out the links between mafia style organisations and martial arts

people have and do train in martial arts soley for their own ends and there is almost no one who is a "good guy" ala wong fei hung

people are people

[golden arhat]

this guy is pretty weak

did your dad leave you as a child or something
i've found this alot from when i did kung fu that people suck up big style to the teacher, they want a father figure or someone to follow and its sad really
they often lack something in their lives.


like it says in my sig


"their are only masters where there are slaves"

[David Jamieson]

this guy is pretty weak

did your dad leave you as a child or something
i've found this alot from when i did kung fu that people suck up big style to the teacher, they want a father figure or someone to follow and its sad really
they often lack something in their lives.


like it says in my sig


"their are only masters where there are slaves"

no need to be mean about it. lol
the guy is early in, everyone needs time.
It's one of the biggest questions in anybodies life really.

that question being "who am i?"

[golden arhat]

no need to be mean about it. lol
the guy is early in, everyone needs time.
It's one of the biggest questions in anybodies life really.

that question being "who am i?"

lol i suppose i was a bit mean


if your dad left you then i'm sorry:p

[David Jamieson]

lol i suppose i was a bit mean


if your dad left you then i'm sorry:p

I've met a lot of people in my life who experienced difficulty in their families, or lost a parent due to death or leaving the family.

This is very difficult for people and some folks never get over it or even take a path taht will help them to deal with that turmoil that's in them because of those events.

these days, there are more and more people who come from broken homes and yes, quite a lot of them do need a father figure or a mother figure or even others to be in a role of sibling.

To gain identity and to identify oneself with a filial association is a good thing as it nurtures a decent human being ultimately as long as the relationships are for the most part positive and nurturing.

if your kungfu practice and family gives you this, all the more power to you!

:)

[golden arhat]

if your kungfu practice and family gives you this, all the more power to you!

:)

theres a difference between establishing a bond and sucking up to someone

i dont live with my dad and i suppose there are some fatherly figures in my life other than him, but no one i've specifically chosen or tried to become close to
some of my friends exemplify fatherly traits so i get a bit of that from people and i understand the need to have positive male role models around


but its silly to expect something more from a kung fu teacher and living with him isnt going to make your training any better because its up to you, and no ones taking you in unless you pay rent anyway so whats the point its like paying more for the same tuition.

[David Jamieson]

theres a difference between establishing a bond and sucking up to someone

i dont live with my dad and i suppose there are some fatherly figures in my life other than him, but no one i've specifically chosen or tried to become close to
some of my friends exemplify fatherly traits so i get a bit of that from people and i understand the need to have positive male role models around


but its silly to expect something more from a kung fu teacher and living with him isnt going to make your training any better because its up to you, and no ones taking you in unless you pay rent anyway so whats the point its like paying more for the same tuition.

i guess i could have disclaimered that with "mutual" or "consensual". :)

i agree that expecting something from someone without them explicitly agreeing to that arrangement and wholly derived from, and kept within ones own mind, is delusional to an extent.

but, if, IF, that person really is hurting inside, then compassion should rule the day and you either nurture that or get that monkey off their back in the most painless way possible.

[golden arhat]

whatever doesnt kill you.............




except for heart attacks
they dont make you stronger

or radiation poisoning......:D


anyway if your hurting inside then thats where the solutions gotta come from, not from someone else.

[wetwonder]

this guy is pretty weak

did your dad leave you as a child or something


I am weak, in the sense that I can work to become stronger.
I don't know much, in the sense that there is always something else to learn.
That is what I mean by humility.

If you don't believe humility is necessary to reach your full martial arts potential, then perhaps you've already reached it.

[golden arhat]

perhaps i have

however more likely is that i have more potential

and humility is secondary to achieving in life and martial arts

if you want to learn humility then join a religion.

saying that their is always more to learn or admitting that your not the best guy in the world isnt being modest or showing humility its called being a realist.

humility is over rated, and so is having someone to call master or lord or god
its the same reason i dont go to church

[MasterKiller]

youknowwho,

just a thought.. you are misusing the word Baqi.....

youknowwho is a native Chinese speaker....

[wetwonder]

humility is over rated


I don't know if I understand what you mean there.
I can assure you, though, that People often over-rate themselves.

[ingchao]

Newsday reports on this all the time....:D

[Eddie]

youknowwho,

just a thought.. you are misusing the word Baqi.....

Can you explain why you say this? His explanation seems pretty standard. Is theres another meaning for ba qi 霸氣?

[ingchao]

What makes an "American a Master"?
Besides studying Martial arts since they where 6 years old and blahh,didlylee blahahaah..................
Paper saying such? From who? Or whom?

[wetwonder]

Pardon, I didn't mean Americans only, I meant Masters that teach in America, irrespective of their nation of origin.

[ingchao]

Pardon, I didn't mean Americans only, I meant Masters that teach in America, irrespective of their nation of origin.

Oh. EEEEE. ooh. Sorry! They obviously don't post here.

[wetwonder]

I don't really understand your post.

But if you're asking what I meant by Master, I suppose a Master would be - for example - in Hung Gar, a teacher that is generally accepted and recognized in the Hung Gar community as a Master, because he graduated as a disciple of his Sifu. And where that Sifu traces back in the same manner to the originators of that particular Art.

I suppose for Wing Chun it works the same way, and the same way again for the other systems.

That's as good a place to start as any, and that's how I've been regarding the term "Master."

[ingchao]

I don't really understand your post.

But if you're asking what I meant by Master, I suppose a Master would be - for example - in Hung Gar, a teacher that is generally accepted and recognized in the Hung Gar community as a Master, because he graduated as a disciple of his Sifu. And where that Sifu traces back in the same manner to the originators of that particular Art.

I suppose for Wing Chun it works the same way, and the same way again for the other systems.

That's as good a place to start as any, and that's how I've been regarding the term "Master."
I'm a Pepper, You're a Pepper.......We're all a Pepper................ I say Pepper, they say paper. It's all about public perception. Don't let them KID you!!!!
I've been training since I was 6 years old, but that doesn't make me a master now does it?