The Lineage of Yip Man

[Shadow_warrior8]

Chinese say, one day as a Sifu, one life time as a father
And to honour the Sifu, the way, ancestors

These years I have heard many stories on Yip Man, whose decision to teach wingchun in Hongkong, and to Bruce Lee, is the reason why many even know of wingchun in the western World. However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, Someone sent his student to beat up Yip man, He was taught the wrong forms, He wasnt a good teacher etc. He lied about Leung Bik, the elder son of Leung Jan whose only student was Yip Man, which explains the difference in simplicity and internal elements different from Chan Wah Shun Lineage

Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee's father, Dim Mak etc....
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik

http://cache.qihoo.com/wenda.php?do=snap&act=fetchHtmlsnap&m=b18b844601a6b34e0b7cbf8c36f946c1&surl=http%3A%2F%2F1293633.qzone.qq.com%2Fblog%2F12 28575809&kw=%D5%E2%BE%CD%CA%C7%C8%EE%C6%E6%C9%BD%D3%BD%B4%B A
http://bbs.ttx.com.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardid=16&id=1265345&star=1&page=1

While I take somethings with a pinch of salt(I am just biased), but then again I wasnt there. I didnt sit in the same space as Yuen Kay San, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Gwok Fu, the greats of Wingchun. He was there, trained, talked, had tea with them.
Rumours and stories from people present about people passed. Nothing can be verified. Master Gwok Fu who describes Master Yuen Kay San's art as Fast and Ruthless, said he matched him in Gor Sao. Someone said Master Yuen Kay San also learnt from Ng Chun So, but then again I wasnt there, and I might not believe, or want to believe what this Great Man said- yeah its silly, I know. Everything I have seen of Master Yuen and Master Sum Nung in China- where he is recognised and honoured as the most Traditional of Wingchun, from Sum Nung's students, sifus is mindblowing impressive! Anyone has a time machine?

By all current China records, Yiu Choi, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were legends in Guangzhou-the 3 heros, even before Yip Man went to hongkong. They were seen together often, training together, even overlooking each other students. So the rumour something is missing in Yip Man, he didnt learn everything, students beat up an elder, presumes the masters didnt exchange, werent close. This would not make sense. They definately exchanged their arts, points, concepts. If your training buddy had a technique, theory you didnt have, you would either try to learn it right? One thing is for sure, they had great respect for each other and were amiable together, as the whole provice had for 3 of them.

In China, they still think the world of Yip Man, hence the chinese goverment build Yip man Tong, ironically, Yip Man became world wide famous in hongkong.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone's life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik. The Chinese goverment even detailed how many sons he had, and that they went to vietnam to teach. Also Sifu Garry recently posted 3 documents archived in Yip Man Tong, that Yip man said, Leung Bik handed to him.

http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/11/20081112112113-1.htm
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/06/20080618175756-1.htm
http://gulao.heshan.gov.cn/html/2003/08/20030814102711-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2008/01/20080110111915-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2007/03/20070320174136-1.htm

The confirmation of Leung Bik explains to me, why Leung Sheung's art is soft, relaxed and powerful, like a women's art, as taught by Kenneth Chung, and described by my Sigung Peter Yang- that Leung Sheung taught him a internal soft art. Why Sigung Yip Chun always says to relaxed, to be sung, to use just enough energy. Why Master Hawkins and Bruce Lee said, Yip Man controlled them gently on their feet, in chi sao, with very slight movement or no movement, versus the more. In internal arts, a little energy is all it takes. From big movement to small movement, from small movement to no movement. According to Master Wang Xiang Zhai, that is the real movement

We chinese say, the tree that is big catches alot of wind. This is what I think of the rumours and stories of Yip man. In the latest Yip Man Movie, where in china, they are buzzing about, a scene says, Chinese lost of face is a No-No. Even if what is said is true, chinese loss of face is a No-No.

So I hope this will help those who are seeking to rubbish the name of Yip Man, now see there is another side of the coin, not found on youtube or english language. There is nothing missing from Yip Man Lineage. He did seek to simplify the art(as said by Master Yip Chun), for mass teaching maybe or maybe he wanted to follow in his Sigung's footsteps, Leung Jan, to present the essense of Wingchun
I have realised that most concepts are not repeated in Yip Man forms- hence only those loyal will learn everything, e.g chou dai choi in kulo, or taap choi in yahu- it is presented in Wooden Dummy. I just didnt know the name it was called in other lineages.

Here are my sharings on my ongoing project into Mainland China's Martial Arts. Of course we tend to believe who and what we want to believe
So I humbly present my small research project as a tribute to Legendary Yip Man.

[reneritchie]

There was a famous letter written by Yuen Jo-Tong and published in New Martial Hero in HK in the 70s. It tried to set the record straight about Yuen Kay-San and Sum Nung's background.

It quoted material on Fok Bo-Chuen and Fung Siu-Ching from the Fatshan archives, and mentioned some of the early training at Tin Hoi restaurant. Most interestingly, it finished up saying Kwok Fu, who was also around at the time, could corroborate Sum Nung's account of events, and that Yuen Jo-Tong and Sum Nung would be more than happy to take anyone and go see Kwok Fu together.

Since almost everyone has passed away now, it's likely that kind of opportunity will never be again -- and stories will again begin to spin towards marketing :(

[mawali]

Reputation is the only real criteria of a Master so Yip Man stands on that, where, the more famous did not have it or they tried to buy it but they could not!
Even if Yip Man was terrible or didn't learn much or he was "too simple' or he was not anointed, appointed etc., his reputation and skill stands as it is because he taught what he promised or he had more satisfied students who lived the lineage as opposed to just basking in the lineage of the past masters!

I passed through HK in the mid 80's and the Yip Man name was well known.
It is bogus to say that
However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, when the reality is that someone who didn't learn anything (i.e. wing chun) can readily defeat most practitioners of the same style, possess integrity and still be considered possessing no skill, according to his detractors. It seems that the non student exceeded the masters! Seems like sour grapes to me. Isn't there a famous saying alluding to the fact that that is the goal of the student, to wit, to exceed the skill of the master!

One of my taijiquan teachers studied a while with Yap Man and even produced a book about 40 years ago with him, and according to him (as I remember) Yip Man was forthcoming with all studnets and exhorted them to study and practice hard.
No secrets, no BS and no kowtow!

[dfl]

Yip Man's been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan's been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the "truth" about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one's teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one's own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man's own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of "I can take the 'old man'". Instead one hears "the 'old man' had a heavy punch". This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man's students (aka "grandmasters") is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

[Vajramusti]

Good post. Sifting old tea leaves doesn't improve one's wing chun or point to further development of the art.

Searching for or keeping a good teacher plus analysis practice and experience surely is a better way..

joy chaudhuri

[clam61]

Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down

[Vajramusti]

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very likely not IMO.... specially in his fighting days. But best not to extend the thread on that point.
.. nothing gained by that line of discussion- and it wasn't dfl's central point anyway.
Those of his students like Ho Kam Ming who spent quality time in developing structural strength and dynamics are also likely to be hard to take down-for a variety of reasons including structure,
footwork, stance/dynamics and appropriate timing... but I don't care to argue that point.
Nothing gained. Ip Man is gone.


joy chaudhuri

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yip Man's been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan's been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the "truth" about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one's teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one's own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man's own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of "I can take the 'old man'". Instead one hears "the 'old man' had a heavy punch". This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man's students (aka "grandmasters") is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

Great post, thats why I seeked mainland china to find the evidence of Leung Bik's existence- and found it written on their goverment websites in Kulo Heshan. From there we can try to understand what Master Hawkins Cheung, Chu Shong Tin, Bruce Lee, Kenneth Chung, Leung Sheung, Peter Yang, Yip Chun said about Yip Man's art- that it was soft and internal- to be sung, relaxed and use just enough energy. To use Nim Tao. To have the structure of head/spine held vertically by the baihui, pelvic tilt, chest soft, back round, elbows in pointing down.
What did Leung Bik teach Ip Man that was different from Chan Wah Shun lineage, Ng Chung So and Chan Yu Ming? How do we cultivate this art?
That will lay foundations for what his art should be- to always strive to improve.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Great post, thats why I seeked mainland china to find the evidence of Leung Bik's existence- and found it written on their goverment websites in Kulo Heshan.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone's life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik.

*

Be careful with the info you find in Kulo "public" archives. Most of what is written about other lineages was what they heard and not first hand knowledge. Many of the Kulo government officials are "Lao's". The Lao's are the "second" biggest clan in Kulo. Fung family being the largest and gatekeepers. The Lao's learned their WC from the Fung's. Most of them trained under my Sigung, Fung Ju, when he returned to Hoksan.

Also, the 22 Point methods was developed by FUNG LIM (wong wah sam student) and not Master Leung Jan. Fung Lim taught it to his son in law who passed the art on to others. Fung Lim's son, Fung Sang, and family practice the Pin Sun 12 Fists art.


Caveat Emptor!


Hope this helps!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Be careful with ALL of this...since it seems that nobody's word can be trusted fully when it comes to Chinese martial arts history.


The only thing that CAN be trusted about Chinese martial arts in general and wing chun in particular is what you SEE and DO firsthand.

Does it work?
Is it fight-efficient?
What fighting answers does it have?
What answers is it missing?


Etc…………

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best any teacher can do is point the way or try to put you on the right path, YOUR path, in that regard, it really isn't about HOW much a teacher knows but how well he can help you find your path.

[Shadow_warrior8]

UltimateWC,
Nice points, agreed.....

Interesting point Jim, I didnt know that about the Laos versus the Fungs.

I was sent this by a practitioner in Kulo village, is this the full syllables of Kulo?

梁赞嫡传的古劳咏春派功夫体系有：
拳：一偏一正看家拳、十字四门拳等。
棍：单头棍三点半棍、双头棍（秘传双头棍）。
掌功：红砂掌（吕树、梁大妹习得）
铁指功：十二时辰点穴法（　梁大妹习得）
气功：十段锦（梁婵传下）
其它兵器：皱纱带（梁婵传下）、单刀（林兵）、轻功（林兵习得）、双刀（阴阳二字夺命刀）。还有跌打正骨医 术。

But he claims this is another branch in Kulo

隐秘的古劳咏春，以提供有缘人去学习和修习，其公开明码实价教授的内容有：
一套拳（十二式半的散手）、
二套拳（击手又名古劳咏春寻桥）36法、
三套拳（古劳咏春标指）。
不公开传授的还有第四套拳：侧身咏春。

This is interesting because he states he has 12 1/2 san sik, Kulo Chum Kil 36 Fatt, Kulo Bil Jee and the fourth set which is not taught openly, Pien Sang Wingchun.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

E-mail me and we can chat more!

The Fung's & Lao's are related and all friends.

:)

[taichi4eva]

I know this is off-topic, but I can't get my browser to read Chinese. Most of the characters do show up, but then on others there are little squares with four numbers in them.

Could anyone translate Shadow_warrior8's text? My Chinese is paltry at best. THanks in advance!

[clam61]

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

[Vajramusti]

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In many things specially internet kung fu discussions there can be multiple opinions on practically any subject. From what you have said in the past and what you seem to be learning the issue may not be important and in a way if one learns good wing chun it doesn't matter-unless one picks up the gosh awful marshland subject of wing chun history.
Ip man's wing chun in some ways is quite unique. He said , told his sons and some of his close students that he learned from Leung Bik when IM went to HK the first time. He didnt say that ona sign in front of his school and didn't take out an ad to that effect to the best of my knowledge and non one that I know of questioned him on that when IM was alive.Per the tradition of that time he listed his first teacher as his sifu, but he learned from others.
But some folks are skeptical. You can have any take on wing chun history that you want- it comes in 57 flavors. Shoot even now there are mysteries about who learned what from whom and for how long. You takes your pick in the history cafeteria.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie.

Rubbish. He's rolled with Carlos Snr, Rolls and Carlson in the Big Octagon In The Sky. Right now he's cornering WSL in his match with the recently arrived Helio.


maybe he would not have been able to be taken down

Good point. Takedowns and submissions are much more difficult when your opponent consists entirely of ectoplasm. OTOH, chain punching doesn't work all that well either.

No offence meant to the Gracies. Some of this conjecture, OTOH, deserves nothing but ridicule.


what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

He's a pivotal figure in the "histories" of many YM lineages, as the elder son of Leung Jan. Willam Cheung's history, as just one example, loses (a lot more) credibility if it can be proved he did not exist.

However evidince for his existence is highly tenuous ... though the OP appears to have found osmething concrete in that regard.

As Joy said, WC history is a smorgasbord, and you and many (most?) others seem to have picked the bits that best fit the way they'd like things to be.

[chusauli]

Yip Man was great, and he was human. Chinese say Yin Shui Si Yuan - "drinking water, think of the source". He is honored for his teachings.

Personally, I think it is important we investigate what other students of Yip Man taught and discuss them. They are all part of a puzzle.

Whether or not he learned from Leung Bik is irrelevent; he learned and taught and we have what he passed down. That is enough.

Yuen Kay Shan was also great. I honor him as a great contributor and preserver of WCK. Too little is known about him here. Sum Nung did a great job in his time teaching and preserving the art in China.

Yiu Choi, who studied with Yuen Chai Wan and later Ng Jung So, can give us a missing link and glimpse of what was passed down to present, but his system has its unique features.

All of our ancestors, we can respect.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path. Masters like 90 years old Gwok Fu lived to tell their tales and his own.

But its all just for bedtime stories, something to fall asleep to after a hard day of wingchun training.

[LoneTiger108]

The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path.

Interesting point about people translating 'who want to see the other side of the coin'. This is happening more and more these days. Westerners trying to learn the dialect of their teacher/s.

Its been a while since I read any mention of Yiu Choi. The best source of info on Yiu Choi in the UK is Sifu Wai Po Tang http://www.martialartinstitute.com/ where he also mentions Yiu Kil (?)

Whatever, or wherever you come from, people can only really learn to appreciate what they have if we all learn how to share! Unfortunately for most westerners (non-chinese readers) we still have a very long way to go, as we may never fully understand what was taught if we can't understand the language that was used to teach.


All of our ancestors, we can respect.

I would hope so Chu Sifu.

Not to sound like the Orange mobile ad, but we are all part of everyone as everyone is part of us.

For anyone who has never seen this clip, it's an entire unedited piece of Ip Man performing the 108 MYJ. I only ever saw this once during the opening of the Tong in Foshan.

Respect aside, how did this end up on Youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

[Vajramusti]

You can tell that Ip man was quite old and ill in that dummy video. There is some hesitation here and there.
But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!! He apparently kicked a lot in earlier years.In Ip Ching's little book on his father he mentions how when Ip man bent over to get a newspaper at a restaurant, a thief tried to lift something from him and Ip Man shot out a rear kick and the thisf went flying backwards.

From time to time apparently Ip Ching has objected to stuff being out on U tube- but things do get by. I have seen that clip several times before.

A real curiosity :when will a well known wing chun business man release the oictures that wer made when Ip Man was giving sime lessons for the Hing Kong police.It will probably come out when the price is right.

joy chaudhuri

[bakxierboxer]

You can tell that Ip man was quite old and ill in that dummy video. There is some hesitation here and there.
But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!!


Age and illness aside, his skill was still readily apparent.
I saw a lot of "give-aways" in evidence.

I also have a suspicion that some of the "hesitation" you mentioned had something to do with a "dislike" for that particular dummy....... appeared to complain about the position of the upper arms?

[hunt1]

Joy I was told Leung Ting bought those movies and pictures years ago.

[Vajramusti]

bakxierboxer: I am unsure about the real reason for the stoppages in doing the mok jong

hunt 1: yes I heard about that. He bought it apparently from an ex HK police person .
He showed some of it to a convention of his students in LA several years ago-probably will release them when the price is right.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

I also have a suspicion that some of the "hesitation" you mentioned had something to do with a "dislike" for that particular dummy....... appeared to complain about the position of the upper arms?

I hadn't heard that one before. :confused:

My belief is that, after all the changes and modifications and the natural ageing process Ip Man just simply 'forgot' what he was doing at various points. Not forgetting that this was (apparently) just some test footage that was never supposed to see the light of day let alone be available for everyone in the world to see! Unrehearsed, but still 'completed'.

Anyone know the name of the camera person?


But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!!

Exactly my point. There is a precision there, even in his steps.

It's strange for me as I recently took up my old book from Uncle Joseph Cheng and it fits neatly with the Ip Man clip.

Out of interest, how does everybody explain the number of sets? How many? What are the general terms? Do other families use the same format?

[Vajramusti]

Lone Tiger-
Speculation. We don't know exactly who was there or who took the film besides Ip man's presence in the picture.. Could be Ip Chin. But Ip Chin would know. Ip Man turns to the the observer several times. Not necessarily forgetting things.
There are many possible motions on the dummy depending on whether one is passing on or practicing a form or whether one is working on applications and combinations. Ip Man himself tinkered with sections of the form at different times.
After looking at his student or observer. he may have decided which sequence of his form he was going to do or show to that observer.. He was not doing a performance for u tube or the u tube generation..

Joseph Cheng's dummy book is different in the details. I have it- misplaced- somewhere. A friend of mine learned from Cheng.

joy chaudhuri

[clam61]

this reminds me of another thread in this forum where people had questions about sum neng and yip man...about the 'rift' between them.

this is what i heard. you can believe it or not.


there was some question about whether there was a rift and what it was about.

there was a rift. it was about yuen kay san.

yip man and sum nung knew each other in canton and were good aquaintances/friends.

yip man was taught a few things from yuen kay san for a few months (Yip Man already knew WC). when yip man was in HK he used YKS' to bolster his credibility, except he said that he taught YKS. it finally got back to YKS later that YM claimed this. YKS basically told his student, Sum Nung to kick yip man's ass. Sum Nung followed his teachers wishes and challenged YM to a fight in private.

YM went in with his famous pak sau and Sum Nung neutralized it and in the end, he ended the fight with a choke on YM. YM said he gave up. that ended it.

Sum Nung liked to keep a low profile and so did YKS so the match was kept private. The 'beef' was squashed at that point.


Chinese say, one day as a Sifu, one life time as a father
And to honour the Sifu, the way, ancestors

These years I have heard many stories on Yip Man, whose decision to teach wingchun in Hongkong, and to Bruce Lee, is the reason why many even know of wingchun in the western World. However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, Someone sent his student to beat up Yip man, He was taught the wrong forms, He wasnt a good teacher etc. He lied about Leung Bik, the elder son of Leung Jan whose only student was Yip Man, which explains the difference in simplicity and internal elements different from Chan Wah Shun Lineage

Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee's father, Dim Mak etc....
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik

http://cache.qihoo.com/wenda.php?do=snap&act=fetchHtmlsnap&m=b18b844601a6b34e0b7cbf8c36f946c1&surl=http%3A%2F%2F1293633.qzone.qq.com%2Fblog%2F12 28575809&kw=%D5%E2%BE%CD%CA%C7%C8%EE%C6%E6%C9%BD%D3%BD%B4%B A
http://bbs.ttx.com.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardid=16&id=1265345&star=1&page=1

While I take somethings with a pinch of salt(I am just biased), but then again I wasnt there. I didnt sit in the same space as Yuen Kay San, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Gwok Fu, the greats of Wingchun. He was there, trained, talked, had tea with them.
Rumours and stories from people present about people passed. Nothing can be verified. Master Gwok Fu who describes Master Yuen Kay San's art as Fast and Ruthless, said he matched him in Gor Sao. Someone said Master Yuen Kay San also learnt from Ng Chun So, but then again I wasnt there, and I might not believe, or want to believe what this Great Man said- yeah its silly, I know. Everything I have seen of Master Yuen and Master Sum Nung in China- where he is recognised and honoured as the most Traditional of Wingchun, from Sum Nung's students, sifus is mindblowing impressive! Anyone has a time machine?

By all current China records, Yiu Choi, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were legends in Guangzhou-the 3 heros, even before Yip Man went to hongkong. They were seen together often, training together, even overlooking each other students. So the rumour something is missing in Yip Man, he didnt learn everything, students beat up an elder, presumes the masters didnt exchange, werent close. This would not make sense. They definately exchanged their arts, points, concepts. If your training buddy had a technique, theory you didnt have, you would either try to learn it right? One thing is for sure, they had great respect for each other and were amiable together, as the whole provice had for 3 of them.

In China, they still think the world of Yip Man, hence the chinese goverment build Yip man Tong, ironically, Yip Man became world wide famous in hongkong.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone's life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik. The Chinese goverment even detailed how many sons he had, and that they went to vietnam to teach. Also Sifu Garry recently posted 3 documents archived in Yip Man Tong, that Yip man said, Leung Bik handed to him.

http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/11/20081112112113-1.htm
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/06/20080618175756-1.htm
http://gulao.heshan.gov.cn/html/2003/08/20030814102711-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2008/01/20080110111915-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2007/03/20070320174136-1.htm

The confirmation of Leung Bik explains to me, why Leung Sheung's art is soft, relaxed and powerful, like a women's art, as taught by Kenneth Chung, and described by my Sigung Peter Yang- that Leung Sheung taught him a internal soft art. Why Sigung Yip Chun always says to relaxed, to be sung, to use just enough energy. Why Master Hawkins and Bruce Lee said, Yip Man controlled them gently on their feet, in chi sao, with very slight movement or no movement, versus the more. In internal arts, a little energy is all it takes. From big movement to small movement, from small movement to no movement. According to Master Wang Xiang Zhai, that is the real movement

We chinese say, the tree that is big catches alot of wind. This is what I think of the rumours and stories of Yip man. In the latest Yip Man Movie, where in china, they are buzzing about, a scene says, Chinese lost of face is a No-No. Even if what is said is true, chinese loss of face is a No-No.

So I hope this will help those who are seeking to rubbish the name of Yip Man, now see there is another side of the coin, not found on youtube or english language. There is nothing missing from Yip Man Lineage. He did seek to simplify the art(as said by Master Yip Chun), for mass teaching maybe or maybe he wanted to follow in his Sigung's footsteps, Leung Jan, to present the essense of Wingchun
I have realised that most concepts are not repeated in Yip Man forms- hence only those loyal will learn everything, e.g chou dai choi in kulo, or taap choi in yahu- it is presented in Wooden Dummy. I just didnt know the name it was called in other lineages.

Here are my sharings on my ongoing project into Mainland China's Martial Arts. Of course we tend to believe who and what we want to believe
So I humbly present my small research project as a tribute to Legendary Yip Man.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yeah I heard that one, and I know where it comes from, and there is so much more in terms of "rumours" of conflict. I was told Ip Man was smashed with a Poi Pai Jeung in that fight you mentioned. Haha...
Not to take anything away from the people who started, spreading it.
I like these people.....and I know that they believe the person who told them....
But its history which cannot be verified- no video camera back in the day, no youtube. I personally dont believe it, and I have no sifus I talked to who has verified being there or heard it in the Hongkong lineage. It sounds more like My sifu is better than your Sifu kinda story. And yeah everyone wants to hear that their sigung, sifu is top brass.

Here is a mainland chinese posting on Yuen Kay San and their family/ lineage is huge over there.

蛇形永春内功拳阮济云在安南所传出—蛇形永春，永春内功拳。
阮奇山之兄长，追随师父郭保全（蛇形）(老洪拳五形之一)，冯小青（红船永春，当时年届七十） 等。
套路除部分蛇形拳路、红船永春拳路外，还有小练头，并无寻桥及标指之套路。

广州咏春拳亦称阮奇山咏春拳。
阮奇山先后追随师父郭保全（蛇形），冯小青（永春，当时年届七十），最后（后於叶问）追随吴仲 素。
套路有：蛇形拳路，红船永春拳路，小练头，加上了由吴仲素处学来之寻桥及标指之套路

Here's the translation,
Snake style internal wingchun was passed by Yuen Chai Wan.
Yuen Chai Wan learnt Snake Style- part of 5 elements Old Hung Kuen from Fok Bo Chuen. From 70 years old Fung Siu Ching, he learnt Red Boat Wengchun
Yuen Chai Wan's sets is divided into Snake Style portion of Wingchun, Red Boat Wingchun, there is Shil Lim Tao, but no Chum Kil or Bil Jee(as seen in Vietnam Wingchun, there is none)

Guangzhou Wingchun Yuen Kay San Wingchun
Yuen Kay San learnt from Sifu Fok Bo Chuen- Snake Style Wingchun, from 70 years old Fung Siu Ching- Weng chun, and learnt from Ng Chun So. The sets included Snake Style Wingchun, Red Boat Weng Chun, Shil Lim Tao, and the Chum Kil and Bil Jee, learnt from Ng Chun So after Ip Man(left???).
On the chinese posting above from China- it differs from what is said in the western world on YKS/Sum Nung about Ng Chun So(not to take anything away from this great Master) and I respect and trust the people who posted in the West.

Having talked and learnt from old Sifus alive today talking about their old masters, this kind of "thing" doesnt happen, because it doesnt go down well with Martial Code or the culture of the day. Even today, sending my student to challenge my best friend would be "hmmmm". The chinese loss of face is No-No, so that would have reaped huge reprecussions.
I have too much respect for the legendary Yuen Kay San, Sum Nung and Yip Man to believe any conflict would have warrented such actions.
They would have probably tag teamed to defend against/challenge the japanese occupation of that time, for calling them sick men of asia- Heros forged in times of need, oppression.

Can tell you are loyal to the Sum Nung/YKS camp, and its great. But when it comes down to, legend and stories e.g Master Gwok Fu's stories about him and Master Yuen. Even though he is the last link(if not the last) for Master Yuen, Master Yip and himself. He was there, in china all these years. Still the story is at best his version and it cant be verified what is what, so I take the stand, they were great people, legends for skills and conduct- PERIOD!!! That can be verified because there is documentation

[Vajramusti]

Nonsense!!!

[omarthefish]

The best any teacher can do is point the way or try to put you on the right path, YOUR path, in that regard, it really isn't about HOW much a teacher knows but how well he can help you find your path.

Story about Milton Erikson.

When asked how therapy works Milton Erikson once told this story:

So one day he found this horse grazing in his yard and wonders who it belongs to. He saddles up the horse and heads down the road not really guiding it anywhere. Every once in a while the horse wanders off the road to munch on some daisies or something and he pulls the reigns and sets it back on the road but other than that he gives it no direction. Eventually the horse wanders into this farm and a guy steps out and says, "Wow! You brought my horse back. How did you know it was mine?"

Erikson says, "I didn't really. You just keep putting the horse back on the road and eventually it finds it's way home."

[LSWCTN1]

some random thoughts regarding this

am i correct in thinking that the Kwok Fu you talk of is Ip Mans Fatsan student?

if so, would he really have been there to witness Ip Man practising/training with his peers?

if he was there, would he have been brought there if Ip Man was not an equal of both YKS and Yui Choi?

if Kwok Fu could handle YKS's gor sau, and IM was KF's sifu - why would YKS send his student to beat up the man who taught someone that YKS couldnt completely handle?

according to Yui Choi's son, Yui Choi had a hand in teaching Ip Man - as Yui Choi was his sihing under Ng Chun So. very probable that they practised together privately

Yui Choi first learnt under Yuen Chai Wan so YKS would have been a sibak to him, in those traditional times would YKS have practised together with him, no matter how close YKS and Ip Man were?

does Yui Choi system have luk sao? i ask because it was supposedly developed by IM and YKS together, so if YC was there he would surely have it, no?

in all honesty these were all greats and i dont think anyone will ever completely agree on everything regarding the collective histories, what is important is that we enjoy the art that we are lucky enough to have passed down to us

gotta run!

[Shadow_warrior8]

some random thoughts regarding this

am i correct in thinking that the Kwok Fu you talk of is Ip Mans Fatsan student?

if so, would he really have been there to witness Ip Man practising/training with his peers?

if he was there, would he have been brought there if Ip Man was not an equal of both YKS and Yui Choi?

if Kwok Fu could handle YKS's gor sau, and IM was KF's sifu - why would YKS send his student to beat up the man who taught someone that YKS couldnt completely handle?

according to Yui Choi's son, Yui Choi had a hand in teaching Ip Man - as Yui Choi was his sihing under Ng Chun So. very probable that they practised together privately

Yui Choi first learnt under Yuen Chai Wan so YKS would have been a sibak to him, in those traditional times would YKS have practised together with him, no matter how close YKS and Ip Man were?

does Yui Choi system have luk sao? i ask because it was supposedly developed by IM and YKS together, so if YC was there he would surely have it, no?

in all honesty these were all greats and i dont think anyone will ever completely agree on everything regarding the collective histories, what is important is that we enjoy the art that we are lucky enough to have passed down to us

gotta run!

You brought up a good example, if one did not understand or read cantonese one would ask these questions and perhaps misinterprete the story.

No, Master Gwok Fu said he was being taught by Master Yip Man, and Master Yuen was sitting right next to him. Apparently, this scene of Yip Man teaching, and Master Yuen being there was a common thing.

Next he said Master Yuen was ruthless and quick in his strikes when they played hands. I dont believe Master Yuen was out to do him in, maybe just test him. And he said, he was able to handle the exchange. It doesnt mean, he beat up Master Yuen. Or Master Yuen beat him down. He didnt say that. He also went on to say Master Yuen later told his peers that Gwok Fu was a skilled fighter.
We can exchange skills without doing the guy in right? In chinese martial arts, there is a saying, once you touch hands, the true kungfu will be reveal.

Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Yip Man were known as the 3 Heros(of wingchun) and famous in Guangdong. I personally believe they were great friends. And in those days where Wingchun was not a publicly taught system, and expensive to learn, 3 friends who had the honour to learn it, would exchange(Me thinks it was like a Turf Club, where the Elite hang out with their race horses)

All this comes from the video featured. I am not going to add any legend or stories to it. Like I said, I wasnt there, he lived it. And I respect all three of them. :)

History is funny, according to what you wrote, Yiu Choi learnt from Yuen Chai Wan, and then taught Yip man. However in the chinese post from Mainland china, Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man. So who is who, what is what? Hahahaha.....no one knows and honestly none of it matters, in the big scheme of things, except to those that insist their version of the story is right. Really if Ip man was beaten up, so what? And if he lost one exchange(who knows his mental state), maybe he had a off day, does that mean he is not a great master, or will not be? See there's where stories dont continue or dont teach.
In chinese we know as a warrior, winning and losing is common. What is important is what you do about it, after you have had a fall- to pick yourself up and better your skills. Thats really winning.
When I was training in army, they taught us, we can lose the battle, we cannot lose the war.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Now on to some interesting videos that are relaxing....
Donnie Yen as Ip Man

甄子丹"葉問"專訪(上) Ip Man: Interview with Donnie Yen part 1, 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciJR2AhN2FY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4zThOFUH1o

洪金寶"葉問"專訪 Ip Man: Interview with Sammo Hung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC4tTjhXdeo

Donnie at Taiwan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15eebCg8mBI

Donnie Yen (甄子丹) on Ip Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y67D9I5MRqg

[clam61]

yes i know everything is unverifiable.

however i would disagree that challenge matches not happening. your talk about loss of face is precisely why these things happened. besides, its not like YKS told SN to go cripple or kill YM. just to beat him in a sparring match. just sparring.

i dont know who you think i heard this from. i heard this from sum nung many years ago

i prefaced my story with "you dont have to believe it" or someting to that affect. im not pushing it. just saying what i heard.


Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man

i have no idea who ng chun so is...but could be. like u said. they probably talked and knew of each other. maybe they gave each other pointers. but i htink the point is that in the story (that i heard at least i know others instantly dont believe anything i said) yip man said that he taught YKS a lot...as in YKS was his sidai and below him in skill etc. that he "taught YKS everything he knows"--that sort of deal. perhaps he didnt at all...but back then it was all word of mouth so it probably got back to Canton from HK like a game of telephone and YKS got ****ed!

YKS had some pride...after all that is why Sum Nung named it YKS Wing Chun after his dying teacher expressed concern that he would be forgotten in the world of Wing CHun

again i dont really care. im just repeating what i heard.


Yeah I heard that one, and I know where it comes from, and there is so much more in terms of "rumours" of conflict. I was told Ip Man was smashed with a Poi Pai Jeung in that fight you mentioned. Haha...
Not to take anything away from the people who started, spreading it.
I like these people.....and I know that they believe the person who told them....
But its history which cannot be verified- no video camera back in the day, no youtube. I personally dont believe it, and I have no sifus I talked to who has verified being there or heard it in the Hongkong lineage. It sounds more like My sifu is better than your Sifu kinda story. And yeah everyone wants to hear that their sigung, sifu is top brass.

Here is a mainland chinese posting on Yuen Kay San and their family/ lineage is huge over there.

蛇形永春内功拳阮济云在安南所传出—蛇形永春，永春内功拳。
阮奇山之兄长，追随师父郭保全（蛇形）(老洪拳五形之一)，冯小青（红船永春，当时年届七十） 等。
套路除部分蛇形拳路、红船永春拳路外，还有小练头，并无寻桥及标指之套路。

广州咏春拳亦称阮奇山咏春拳。
阮奇山先后追随师父郭保全（蛇形），冯小青（永春，当时年届七十），最后（后於叶问）追随吴仲 素。
套路有：蛇形拳路，红船永春拳路，小练头，加上了由吴仲素处学来之寻桥及标指之套路

Here's the translation,
Snake style internal wingchun was passed by Yuen Chai Wan.
Yuen Chai Wan learnt Snake Style- part of 5 elements Old Hung Kuen from Fok Bo Chuen. From 70 years old Fung Siu Ching, he learnt Red Boat Wengchun
Yuen Chai Wan's sets is divided into Snake Style portion of Wingchun, Red Boat Wingchun, there is Shil Lim Tao, but no Chum Kil or Bil Jee(as seen in Vietnam Wingchun, there is none)

Guangzhou Wingchun Yuen Kay San Wingchun
Yuen Kay San learnt from Sifu Fok Bo Chuen- Snake Style Wingchun, from 70 years old Fung Siu Ching- Weng chun, and learnt from Ng Chun So. The sets included Snake Style Wingchun, Red Boat Weng Chun, Shil Lim Tao, and the Chum Kil and Bil Jee, learnt from Ng Chun So after Ip Man(left???).
On the chinese posting above from China- it differs from what is said in the western world on YKS/Sum Nung about Ng Chun So(not to take anything away from this great Master) and I respect and trust the people who posted in the West.

Having talked and learnt from old Sifus alive today talking about their old masters, this kind of "thing" doesnt happen, because it doesnt go down well with Martial Code or the culture of the day. Even today, sending my student to challenge my best friend would be "hmmmm". The chinese loss of face is No-No, so that would have reaped huge reprecussions.
I have too much respect for the legendary Yuen Kay San, Sum Nung and Yip Man to believe any conflict would have warrented such actions.
They would have probably tag teamed to defend against/challenge the japanese occupation of that time, for calling them sick men of asia- Heros forged in times of need, oppression.

Can tell you are loyal to the Sum Nung/YKS camp, and its great. But when it comes down to, legend and stories e.g Master Gwok Fu's stories about him and Master Yuen. Even though he is the last link(if not the last) for Master Yuen, Master Yip and himself. He was there, in china all these years. Still the story is at best his version and it cant be verified what is what, so I take the stand, they were great people, legends for skills and conduct- PERIOD!!! That can be verified because there is documentation

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yes that is a fair post, Who beat who, who lost to who, these kind of stories dont honour them, or wingchun since we cant verify.
and I think the best way to remember these Giants of Wingchun is by honouring them.

I have not heard of stories that Ip Man said alot, in fact, some say they wish he talked more about wingchun, talked more, clearer in explanations. My sigung said his father, tend to talk about other things, often not wingchun. Like him, Sigung Ip chun doesnt talk about wingchun much, away from the training gym. But having said that, maybe he did have a pint too much and he talked about something he shouldnt. Hahahahaha...sorry Yip man, didnt mean it. Just joking.....

[reneritchie]

FWIW, What Sum Nung told me:

After Yip Man went to HK, word filtered back to Fatshan that he (Yip Man) was being marketed as the only WCK sifu, and the sole holder of the art. This upset the other WCK people in Fatshan, so when Sum Nung was invited to teach a class in HK, they asked him to see Yip Man and find out what was happening.

Sum Nung and Yip Man went out to dinner, and Yip Man basically said it was some of his students being overly enthusiastic about the marketing, and he would set the record straight.

Yip Man also told Sum Nung he should stay in HK, because the border might get shut down. Sum Nung didn't want to leave his family, however, so went back for them and -- sure enough -- the Chinese border was closed and the West was cut off from all the WCK in mainland China.

[clam61]

and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

jk

[chusauli]

It makes people excited to think that a chokehold was involved. I think we got a few bored people.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=clam61;917742]and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't have to be silly to praise Sum Nung. You detract from your effort.

Joy Chaudhuri

[clam61]

[QUOTE=clam61;917742]and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't have to be silly to praise Sum Nung. You detract from your effort.

Joy Chaudhuri

not praising. making light of the situation.

[Vajramusti]

not praising. making light of the situation.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the explanation. I have no problem.

joy chaudhuri

[Shadow_warrior8]

Just wanted to share something that makes all this who and who, who is better than who stories seem so small
Personal cultivation, that is the hard part.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090226/img/pwl-the-feet-of-monk-hua-ch-6935a70e49a8.html

Ageing monk's devotion leaves deep mark on temple

Dawn has yet to break over a small temple in a Tibetan region of western China, but monk Hua Chi is already finishing an arduous daily ritual that has left its mark on both the man and the shrine. Skip related content

Hua, also a doctor of traditional medicine who believes he is about 70 years old, has been performing a strict daily ritual at this temple in the monastery town of Tongren, in Qinghai province, for nearly 20 years.

He has knelt in prayer so many times that his footprints remain deeply, perfectly ingrained on the temple's wooden floor.

Every day before sunrise, he arrives at the temple steps, places his feet in his footprints and bends down to pray a few thousand times before walking around the temple.

The footprints are three centimeters (1.2 inches) deep where the balls of his feet have pressed into the wood.

But the years are beginning to make their own mark on his body.

"During the first years I would pray 2,000 to 3,000 times a day. But I have grown older, so in recent years I have only done around 1,000 each day," he said, adding sheepishly that he could sometimes only manage around 500 in the cold of winter.

The ritual started with no specific aim, but with time it has turned into a project of self-salvation, said Hua, who hopes his dedication will be noticed and guarantee his soul a smooth transition to the afterlife.

According to Tibetan Buddhism, following death, the spirit goes through a three-stage process which determines whether it enters nirvana or returns for rebirth in one of the six realms of existence -- hell, human, animal, hungry ghost, demi-god or god.

Hua says he is getting closer to his goal.

"I reconstructed this temple and have prayed and walked around the temple all these times so that after my death my spirit will not suffer," he said.

Hua's devotion has not gone unnoticed by younger monks at the temple, which lies within the Rongwo Gonchen Gompa, Tongren's main Tibetan monastery.

The monastery, which dates from 1301, is home to hundreds of youngsters studying Buddhist scriptures.

Twenty-nine-year-old Genden Darji says he spent many days admiring Hua's efforts before finding the courage to step into his footprints.

As he carefully repeats Hua's movements, the young monk says he plans to carry on the ritual when the older monk stops.

"Every day I come here and every day I look at the piece of wood, and it has inspired me to continue to make the footprints myself," he said.

(Writing by Hanna Rantala; Editing by Ian Ransom and Miral Fahmy)

This peaceful and respecful story would be how I envisioned the meeting of Sum Nung and Yip Man to be, Junior to Senior, pretty much like how Rene described it to be.

[LSWCTN1]

You brought up a good example, if one did not understand or read cantonese one would ask these questions and perhaps misinterprete the story.

No, Master Gwok Fu said he was being taught by Master Yip Man, and Master Yuen was sitting right next to him. Apparently, this scene of Yip Man teaching, and Master Yuen being there was a common thing.

Next he said Master Yuen was ruthless and quick in his strikes when they played hands. I dont believe Master Yuen was out to do him in, maybe just test him. And he said, he was able to handle the exchange. It doesnt mean, he beat up Master Yuen. Or Master Yuen beat him down. He didnt say that. He also went on to say Master Yuen later told his peers that Gwok Fu was a skilled fighter.
We can exchange skills without doing the guy in right? In chinese martial arts, there is a saying, once you touch hands, the true kungfu will be reveal.

Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Yip Man were known as the 3 Heros(of wingchun) and famous in Guangdong. I personally believe they were great friends. And in those days where Wingchun was not a publicly taught system, and expensive to learn, 3 friends who had the honour to learn it, would exchange(Me thinks it was like a Turf Club, where the Elite hang out with their race horses)

All this comes from the video featured. I am not going to add any legend or stories to it. Like I said, I wasnt there, he lived it. And I respect all three of them. :)

History is funny, according to what you wrote, Yiu Choi learnt from Yuen Chai Wan, and then taught Yip man. However in the chinese post from Mainland china, Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man. So who is who, what is what? Hahahaha.....no one knows and honestly none of it matters, in the big scheme of things, except to those that insist their version of the story is right. Really if Ip man was beaten up, so what? And if he lost one exchange(who knows his mental state), maybe he had a off day, does that mean he is not a great master, or will not be? See there's where stories dont continue or dont teach.
In chinese we know as a warrior, winning and losing is common. What is important is what you do about it, after you have had a fall- to pick yourself up and better your skills. Thats really winning.
When I was training in army, they taught us, we can lose the battle, we cannot lose the war.

i wasnt attempting to make any 'wrong or right' posts, more just airing my thoughts - some of my questions would have contradicted each other had i have meant them in an 'i'm right' sense.

sorry for any confusion

the post you made initially is very thought provoking if you are interested in the history of wck, i have many more thoughts on it but none that require an answer, so i wont take up extra bandwidth!

all the best

[Shadow_warrior8]

No worries, just air your thoughts.
Like I said in another post, I was trying to present some material not known or unheard of in the western world. Its no secret, its just not translated, in english

In fact I had my thoughts about the interview, and was intially shocked, because he listed Bruce Lee's father was a robber, kidnapper and Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung tried to blackmail Yip Man into teaching them the wooden dummy otherwise they would quit, and Yip Man said- So quit.....

This old master was really bringing up some controversial stuff that would rock the very basis of Hongkong Wingchun, since we have great reverance for those people he mentioned. Hahaha...this granddaddy rocks.....:D

Me thinks its all just bedtime story stuff. And since everyone likes to hear who beat up who, who did who in, its just Martial Arts Entertainment Tonight.

[Shadow_warrior8]

So to add to the western world research on Leung Jan's Sons, irregardless of the dispute on their skills, lets establise them to have been real people first.

According to Yiu Choi Lineage, Leung Bik, Leung Chun existed and was taught wingchun
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=59
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=58

From the Heshan China Goverment(interestingly they also record one of Leung Jan's children going to vietnam to teach, is that why they have pin sung tsuan ma movements or looks like it?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g7n_fTOmU )
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/Article/2010/201001/18754.html

Sifu Tam Woon Biu mentions Leung Jan's Sons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo&feature=channel

Sifu Fung mentions Leung Jan's Sons in this Kulo Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92HZs4Aj40

This needs to be updated or removed entirely.
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.LeungBik

[Shadow_warrior8]

Here its is clearly stated in Yiu Choi lineage he did not teach Ip Man in the chart by Yiu Choi descendants
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=59

And the video states very clearly what was the relationship of these 3 people, Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Ip Man as stated by Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San descendants
in china were good friends, and brothers, the fatshan 3 heros.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI

This needs to be deleted
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YiuChoi

[LoneTiger108]

Dare I say that this thread is 'one of the greats'?

Good, neat work here. And great to see stuff on Yiu Choi. Wasn't there also a Yiu Kil from Foshan, who was Wai Po Tangs Sifu? Anyone know of Wai Po Tang?

I have also heard that Lee Shing learnt from Yiu Choi. Anything published that actually confirms anything about Lee Shing?? It's a mystery I have been researching for some time...

[hunt1]

Wai Po began as a student of Simon Lau I believe. Yui Kil was Yui Choi's son.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Thank you, I got misled many years back by websites and believing

stories that didnt come from reliable sources which I suspect were ego motivated to push

their name up above others. Alot of the stories told in english in the west

and books are worlds apart from the truth, I reckon due to bad translation and also not

understanding the language, even cantonese spoken in Kulo is different from Hongkong,

with slightly different pitches.

Now I find going into china forums, goverment forums, straight to the families of

the lineages and descendants is the best way to go. It helps to read and write

mandarin.

This is the chinese website for the descedents of Yiu Choi, Yiu Kay and his 3 sons and states exactly the relationship of Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San and Ip Man as described.
姚祺长子姚永强、姚祺二子姚汉强、姚祺三子姚忠强
http://www.yiuchoiyiukay.com/about2.asp

By the way, the latest movie The legend is born, angered the families of yiu choi and yuen

kay san, because they were shown to be defeated by the japanese yet ip man was able to

hold his own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI The families said they

will consider legal action if the movie producers do not hold a press conference or make good

the name of their ancestors.

The familes of master yuen and master yiu, and the families

spoke up saying the three of them were like brother, taking care of each other, good friends.

This would have been a great time for them to reveal the dirty secrets that "ip man was once

beaten up by sum nung by a poi pai jeung", or "yuen kay san sent sum

nung to question him because he claimed he was grandmaster" or "ip man learnt from yuen

kay san" or that "ip man learnt the wrong footwork from chan wah shun" etc.... all the

stories. I have not found any of these stories from books, magazines, forums or the families

interviews in china. This leads me to conclude its not truth, or someone from the Ip, Yuen,

Sum family would have spoken up already. As you can see it the youtube clip, they dont take

insults to their lineage lying down, they aint no weak man of asia.

They were the 3 heros, wing chun brothers of fatshan, even Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San

descendants record this as so. This is THE HISTORICAL TRUTH. No one should ruin or distort

the story of their friendship and mutual respect

[Shadow_warrior8]

Bart cham dao

Here we see a edited video that Master Lun Gai said Ip Man didnt teach pole and

bart cham dao in Fatshan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blv7BOT-GZk&feature=PlayList&p=7C2A88FA059D3BEA&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=7

Here we see a non edited video that Master Lun Gai clearly states Ip Man taught

him the bart cham dao, multiple times, the translator clearly doesnt do any wingchun(she

doesnt even know who is ip man) so there was no reason for them to have a hidden motive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoHHV4MQFKU&feature=related

[chusauli]

What's great is Lun Gai says, "Yip Man never spoke of Leung Bik. Only his Si Hing, Ng Jung So."

This could be correlation that the story of Leung Bik was made up. The story of Yip Man being a "traitor" learning under Leung Bik (learning the alleged "traditional" version passed down from Leung Jan), why would he not teach his students in Fut Shan? Yip Man made no mention of Leung Bik to his original mainland students...

The second video Lun Gai does not exactly state where he learned his Bart Jaam Dao from, whereas in the first video, he states, Yip Man did not teach the Bart Jaam Dao in Fut Shan, only the 3 forms, Jong and 6.5 point pole. No knives. From where do the Bart Jaam Dao techniques Lun Gai now teaches derive? I listened to the Mandarin and Cantonese speaking translators, and they seemed confused and not quite explaining the English question to Lun Gai, nor was Lun Gai 100% explaining. from my understanding, I assume Lun Gai got his knife methods from the WCK hands and forms, learned from Yip Man, as the translators and Lun Gai were discussing.

[chusauli]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2znpGKi5s&feature=related

Yip Man Chum Kiu (incomplete) and Muk Yan Jong (pretty complete) in Futshan (Foshan) - although the moves are slightly different from the HK version, you can see all of Yip Man's signatures to the Jong.

I saw Derek Frearson and Mark Hobbs versions when I visited the UK.

It is obvious Yip Man revised the teachings in HK. The Futshan Jong set looks a lot like Chu Shang Tin's set, perhaps a little like WSL's. William Cheung follows almost the same pattern and juxtaposition as Chu Shang Tin, minus the TWC signatures. So it is an authentic Yip Man set. Futshan and Chu Shang Tin has less repetition than Leung Sheung's set, which perhaps is a Leung Sheung teaching of balancing left and right. It is of course, more crude than say Moy Yat's, Ho Kam Ming's, Wong Long's (which I saw from John D. and Robert Yeung in Hawaii), and Koo Sang's sets, which have more or less the same elements as in Yip Chun and Yip Ching's (and Leung Ting's) sets.

Interesting evolution.

[MysteriousPower]

Yip Man's been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan's been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the "truth" about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one's teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one's own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man's own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of "I can take the 'old man'". Instead one hears "the 'old man' had a heavy punch". This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man's students (aka "grandmasters") is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

Unfortunately this statement is false because of Yip Man's nickname as "the old man". Old men do not spar full contact with their students. What exactly did he best his students in? Chi sao probably which we have all decided is just a drill and not a true test of fighting skill. These stories are such bs. More than likely Yip did not do much sparring with his students and if any
sparring or chi sao occured his students were polite and let him get the best. Why do you all keep spinning these unverifiable myths?

[Liddel]

Old men do not spar full contact with their students


These stories are such bs. More than likely Yip did not do much sparring with his students and if any

'Probably" and "more than likely" lol... your a victim of your own criticism bro.

My Teacher was the assistant to Lok Yiu for many years and got lots of one on one training with Ip. He's recalled many occasions exchanging punches with 'the old man'... no head shots but all out sparring similar to that of karate kumate. Not bad for a 60(ish) year old. Most couldnt touch him and if you did it was while you were getting your leg stomped or a heavier action as your glanced him lol. Most of the time you were trying hard and he was slapping your chest, good control huh.

Fairly common between teacher and students in anything.

Back in those days Gor Sau was controlled full contact sparring albeit with no head shots and believe it or not you had to have three fights under your belt to move on at levels of the system, oh how the standards have changed :o


Why do you all keep spinning these unverifiable myths?

People love stories, but most dont know someone who has first hand experience cause they are not around.

There are stories from witnesses about Ip kicking a guy at a football match for standing on his clothes and starting S h i t, another where a thief tried to steal a pen... my teacher was present for an altercation between a taxi driver and Ip.

The guy was not a god, but he wasnt a nambie pambie expert in chi sau slap hands either, he was a Wu shu man whos probably rolling in his grave at the state of Guilo VT today :o

According to my teacher who knew him he was upset at loosing control of his school even when he was alive, quite sad really :cool:

DREW

[Shadow_warrior8]

What's great is Lun Gai says, "Yip Man never spoke of Leung Bik. Only his Si Hing, Ng Jung So."

This could be correlation that the story of Leung Bik was made up. The story of Yip Man being a "traitor" learning under Leung Bik (learning the alleged "traditional" version passed down from Leung Jan), why would he not teach his students in Fut Shan? Yip Man made no mention of Leung Bik to his original mainland students...

The second video Lun Gai does not exactly state where he learned his Bart Jaam Dao from, whereas in the first video, he states, Yip Man did not teach the Bart Jaam Dao in Fut Shan, only the 3 forms, Jong and 6.5 point pole. No knives. From where do the Bart Jaam Dao techniques Lun Gai now teaches derive? I listened to the Mandarin and Cantonese speaking translators, and they seemed confused and not quite explaining the English question to Lun Gai, nor was Lun Gai 100% explaining. from my understanding, I assume Lun Gai got his knife methods from the WCK hands and forms, learned from Yip Man, as the translators and Lun Gai were discussing.

This thread was about factual truth. This is exactly why I do things in great detail from all families, show historical evidence of interviews and even goverment text like Heshan China Goverment.

I would like to see physical evidence that he was called a "traitor". Given Ip Man standing now in china, I would be very keen to know the source of your information,an interview or written statement. And if so, why is it not mentioned by his good brothers Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San whose families have come out to state their relationships and standing so opening? Why is lun gai and kwok fu respected as legends in fatshan? Can a "traitor" be named one of the 3 heros of fatshan as stated by his wing chun brothers families or have a china monument build for him in fatshan by the goverment? Surely this kind of statement will not go well with many people in china, hongkong. If by learning from more than one sifu we are traitors, then we find many greats past and present, legends, all guilty of being "traitors"
It is a known fact Master Sum Nung, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi, all these legends learnt from more than 1 sifu amongst many other great people.

I dont have any video that said that. And again thats exactly why I go to multiple sources of information so we do have this kind of situation where the good name of ip man is tarnished.
They were not confused. Its very clear that they asked several times if ip man taught him bart cham dao. The first round he said he learnt it when he was very young. The whole interview was largely about this 1 question. This translator wasnt very good, so I will do part of the job here.
This is my mother tongue mandarin and cantonese, so I will ask any other speaker to tell me which point he claimed ip man didnt teach him the bart cham dao.

The gist of the questions
English: Sifu thinks Sil lim tao is the most important? And also communication
Cantonese: Its normal ways of communication.
English: Where did he first learn his bart cham
Cantonese: I dont remember
English: It wasnt Ip man, it was someone else?
Chinese: Do you remember? Was it Yewen Sifu?
Cantonese: I learn it when I was very young
Cantonese: Was it very fast?
English: Its very important, Mark ask me to ask try and find out where did he really learn his bart cham dao?
Chinese: He says its very important UK siheng wants me to make sure whether how to learn the knives techniques?
English: So Ip man showed him some bart cham?
Chinese: He wants me to make sure it was Ip Man that taught knives
Cantonese: Was it really Ip Man Sifu that taught the knives?
At 4.05
Lun Gai: yes it was ip man sifu

To question leung bik
We must discredit the Chinese goverment who have been keeping historical
records of everyone substantial since goodness knows when.
And master tam from chan yiu ming lineage , and master fung from kulo and yiu choi
descendants because they state it on their website.
但至梁之授徒习武者，实不多人，因梁本是文质彬彬，如书生者，实不欲授武于人，恐 后辈动辄存戒备。故只授儿子梁春、梁壁、陈华顺（即找钱华）与猪肉店主梁桂者也。
Leung Bik existence was a fact, widely known in china it seems.

[hunt1]

Robert first to say that stories are just that I don't care much one way or the other however attempts to discredit the Leung Bik story must first discredit Jiu Wan.

He told his students including his son,this was in the 60's, that he became a student of Ip because the wing chun Ip did with him in HK was different and Ip's skill was higher than he had shown or performed in Fushan. When he asked Ip about this Ip told him the differences were what he learned from Leung Bik.

Jui Wan knew Ip well is Fushan they were friends and had worked out together Jui Wan would certainly have known what Ip did in Fushan and what was different in his Hk teachings.

Who knows the truth behind so many old stories but Jui Wan is certainly at least as credible if not more so than anyone saying the story is false.

Also not talking about LB does not mean there was no LB. He didn't talk to Jui Wan about him in Fushan either. Not talking about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Robert first to say that stories are just that I don't care much one way or the other however attempts to discredit the Leung Bik story must first discredit Jiu Wan.

He told his students including his son,this was in the 60's, that he became a student of Ip because the wing chun Ip did with him in HK was different and Ip's skill was higher than he had shown or performed in Fushan. When he asked Ip about this Ip told him the differences were what he learned from Leung Bik.

Jui Wan knew Ip well is Fushan they were friends and had worked out together Jui Wan would certainly have known what Ip did in Fushan and what was different in his Hk teachings.

Who knows the truth behind so many old stories but Jui Wan is certainly at least as credible if not more so than anyone saying the story is false.

Also not talking about LB does not mean there was no LB. He didn't talk to Jui Wan about him in Fushan either. Not talking about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This is good information. No where I have heard this, so its interesting. I have learnt something today. Thank you.

There was a reason for the 8mm filmed, that we see today. Even though he was dying from cancer and couldnt even do bart cham dao, lok dim bun or bil jee.
Ip man knew many out go out and say he learnt this and that, sole inheritor, this is ip man style etc...., my sigung ip chun and ip ching and sifu have repeated this to their students.

What is ip man kungfu? it is what you see, the only footage available of ip man. How did ip man a frail skinny looking man do kungfu, we must look at nei gung training(which includes structure, tendons, liagaments, coiling, opening closing, yi nim, kung lik etc...). This is still very much a hardly practiced activity.

yet it doesnt mean we cannot interprete it the way we see fit, Ip Chun Sigung also said, people play kungfu, its not kungfu playing people. And Ip Ching Sigung also clearly tell others he changed the punch in Bil Jee and he did ask him father.

Ip man said if you change it, and people acknowledge(agree or are okay) it, its okay. Basically we are all unique. You are doing your own wingchun, not anyone elses.

[chusauli]

So we have a story of Leung Bik and we can think several things as possible:

1) There is a Leung Bik and he taught Yip Man as the story goes...
2) Lee Man wrote some fictional accounts of Yip Man and Leung Bik and these got circulated widely through HK newspapers
3) Yip Man attributed his own awakening and understanding to Leung Bik, but may not have studied with Leung Bik
4) There is something other than these thoughts/stories

[hunt1]

Personally of all the stories I have heard the one I heard from Moy Yat I think maybe closest to the truth if only because it fits all the observable facts is a nice simple manner.

It wasn't Leung Bik but Fung Wah and he had gone with Yip to vist him. LB was used for marketing since few would have heard of Fung Wah or known he was Leung Jans student and Yip was in need of money. They met after Yip fled to Hk in 49.

This story would explain much. Why the WC he taught in Fushan and HK were different. Why in HK his WC changed from what he taught his first students which was very close to his Fushan WC. Yip did tell several students about Fung Wahs skill and seeing him break dummy arms. It also explains both the LB story being made up and still learning different methods from another student of Leung Jan

Of course one might think it is to neat a package.

[anerlich]

By the way, the latest movie The legend is born, angered the families of yiu choi and yuen kay san, because they were shown to be defeated by the japanese yet ip man was able to hold his own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI The families said they

will consider legal action if the movie producers do not hold a press conference or make good the name of their ancestors.


LOL, That's a pretty pathetic basis for a lawsuit. If you can sue someone who portrays your ancestor as a loser in a work of fiction only loosely based on fact, IMO the legislators need to be whacked firmly about the head.

Maybe they should sue the producers of Ip Man for making him look better than YC and YKS.

IMO such legal action makes their ancestors look even worse, as the manifest evidence is that the ancestors' offspring turned out to be idiots.

[chusauli]

LOL, That's a pretty pathetic basis for a lawsuit. If you can sue someone who portrays your ancestor as a loser in a work of fiction only loosely based on fact, IMO the legislators need to be whacked firmly about the head.

Maybe they should sue the producers of Ip Man for making him look better than YC and YKS.

IMO such legal action makes their ancestors look even worse, as the manifest evidence is that the ancestors' offspring turned out to be idiots.


The Chinese "loss of face" is the issue here - they always need their "ancestors" to be great and invincible, rather than portrayed as normal people. Its too much at times.

[chusauli]

Personally of all the stories I have heard the one I heard from Moy Yat I think maybe closest to the truth if only because it fits all the observable facts is a nice simple manner.

It wasn't Leung Bik but Fung Wah and he had gone with Yip to vist him. LB was used for marketing since few would have heard of Fung Wah or known he was Leung Jans student and Yip was in need of money. They met after Yip fled to Hk in 49.

This story would explain much. Why the WC he taught in Fushan and HK were different. Why in HK his WC changed from what he taught his first students which was very close to his Fushan WC. Yip did tell several students about Fung Wahs skill and seeing him break dummy arms. It also explains both the LB story being made up and still learning different methods from another student of Leung Jan

Of course one might think it is to neat a package.

If you look at Leung Sheung's WCK - it is so close to Yuen Kay Shan's. A few minor differences, a little tightening of movements, reversing the Huen Sao to inward (a Yip Man signature), but otherwise 90% the same . So is it really that much of a change? I think the Cheung Bo WCK has quite a few clips (the guy was Sum Nung's student before...) on youtube, and you can see the closeness with that and HK Yip Man WCK in the early stages.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The references I have from goverment to the wingchun families in china, are not related to Ip Man Lineage in blood, neither do they owe Ip Man to mention Leung Bik. They are telling you the evidence as they know it.
Its interesting despite all the physical evidence, we are still speculating.

I heard also a story about the family of Fung, Fung Zhu going to look for Ip man and he ended up exchanging with Ip Ching. Again another story.

Done my part here. Leung Bik is a closed revelation as far as I am concerned.

Will come and give more evidence on other sections of Ip Man lineage when I do more research in china from china.

[hunt1]

Shadow I enjoy your posts,keep up the good work. I enjoy the different stories. I am most interested in Non Ip Man stuff only because I think Ip Man stuff has been out there so long.

Robert not sure if I wasn't clear in my previous post or I misread yours but your post was exactly the point I was trying to make. If Moy Yat was correct and Yip stated learning from /training with Fung Wah in 49/50 then it makes perfect sense that he would teach his first students the wing chun he was most comfortable with and then teach or integrate the newer material latter on as he became more comfortable with it hence the change in his teachings over time.

No different I am sure than if you were teaching in 89/90 your material was different than what you taught later on after you had time to assimilate Hawkins wing chun.

[chusauli]

Robert not sure if I wasn't clear in my previous post or I misread yours but your post was exactly the point I was trying to make. If Moy Yat was correct and Yip stated learning from /training with Fung Wah in 49/50 then it makes perfect sense that he would teach his first students the wing chun he was most comfortable with and then teach or integrate the newer material latter on as he became more comfortable with it hence the change in his teachings over time.

No different I am sure than if you were teaching in 89/90 your material was different than what you taught later on after you had time to assimilate Hawkins wing chun.

Hunt,

You may be correct...not much more is known about Fung Wah. Perhaps Fung Wah had this influence. As I learn about history, we have no definites, only speculation, and although we try to choose the most logical stream of events, perhaps another course can be true.

We should always think there is "noise" in the communication, that we don't know for sure, forgot or overlooked details, were insufficient to understand at the time, or are mistaken. In this way, we can only speculate, and consider and weigh possibilities.

Weng Chun has said that Dai Duk Lan had an influence on Yip Man as well, as well as a possibility that Chu Chung Man was a distant relative of Yip Man. Who knows? Certainly we know Yip Man "borrowed" their Jong design. Perhaps Yip Man put together Baat Jaam Dao himself with external influences and classical references. We know consistently the Yuen Kay Shan pole and Yip Man pole share great similarity as do the 3 hand sets, but the Jong and Yee Ji Dao (knives) differs greatly in juxtaposition and content.

Yes, you are correct - what I taught in the 80's and 90's is different from what I teach today, and have been teaching since 2000...

[Shadow_warrior8]

The Ving Tsun was teached to the "Young Lords" of FatSan by Chan Wah Shun, and between those young ones, there was the most famous 'till today: IP MAN

"My grandpa managed the Ip Family finances. We owned restaurants, funeral houses and the famous Song Garden where the food for silk worms grow. The Song Garden was very huge and the goverment needed to make a road in the same place. So, after my grandpa dies the road was called Fuk Yin. This road is very near to Chopstick street, where Leung Jaan lived." - said Ip Ching to Moy Yat.

http://lukdimbungwaan.blogspot.com/

[Shadow_warrior8]

http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/xslw_disp.asp?xsyj_ID=261

Ip Man in fatshan as recorded as by the Fatshan Chinese Goverment

佛山市博物馆网站——学术研究

刘建乐 佛山市博物馆副馆长　

摘　要：佛山是中国南派武术之乡，其浓厚的武术文化氛围培育了咏春拳名家叶问。叶问又像一位使者，对咏春拳 的传播、推广做出了杰出的贡献。为了纪念叶问宗师，佛山建成叶问堂，使之成为咏春弟子寻根拜祖的重要场所， 也是佛山武术文化的历史见证。

关键词：佛山武术文化　叶问　咏春拳　叶问堂

一、佛山浓厚的武术文化培育了咏春拳名家叶问
　　佛山是一座历史悠久的文化名城，“肇始于晋，得名于唐”。唐宋时期，佛山成为工商业城镇，至明清时期已 成为举世闻名的“天下四大镇”、“天下四聚”之一。佛山在历史上经济繁荣，人民生活富庶，但地幅狭小，地势 平坦，天然防御条件差，且地处广州西南部交通要道，历来为兵家必争之地，居民为求自保，很早就形成习武强身 、自卫御敌的传统。明正统十四年（1449年），广东爆发黄萧养农民起义，起义军围攻广州，并分兵进攻佛山 ，当时佛山“无甲兵之援，险塞之限，徒以其忠义之激发，能使阡陌耒耜之辈，奋而为精兵，而大敌 破者”, [1] 这足以说明“阡陌耒耜之辈”是经过技击训练的，具有一定的武术功底，才可以成为精兵，打败入侵的黄萧养起义 军。
　明、清以来，随着佛山社会经济的发展，陶瓷、铸造、纺织、漂染和农产品加工等行业极为发达，其从业人员大 都喜好参与武术活动，练武既可以让他们拥有强健的体魄，为从事繁重的体力劳动提供资本，又可以成为这些社会 底层群众相互沟通的桥梁和纽带，成为他们的精神寄托。太平天国运动失败后，不少武林人士因参与这次革命，遭 到清政府追杀迫害，而佛山既临近广州又手工业、商业繁盛，实为当时武林人士避祸安身之所，再加上佛山民间素 有尚武的风气，于是吸引了各界武林人士纷沓而至，南派武术著名的洪拳、咏春拳、蔡李佛拳，虽然并不发源于佛 山，但佛山却成为其重要的发扬基地。至清末民初，佛山成为中国南派武术之乡，习武者数以万计，武馆林立，名 家辈出，在中国武术史上占有相当重要的地位。
　叶问就是佛山浓厚的武术文化培育出来的一代宗师。叶问（1893-1972），原名叶继问，佛山桑园叶氏家族人。叶家为佛山望族，坚持尊儒重教的严格家风，使叶问形成儒雅的 性格。由于叶问幼时体弱多病，而此时佛山咏春拳宗师梁赞的弟子陈华顺（找钱华）租用桑园叶家宗祠设馆授徒， 叶问便拜其为师，学习咏春拳术。由于叶问天资聪颖，领悟力强，深得师傅的喜爱，陈华顺对此年幼弟子极为疼爱 ，自收叶问为徒后，则不再接受任何人士拜门学技，叶问成为其封门弟子，各位年长师兄如吴仲素、陈汝棉、雷汝 齐等，对此年幼师弟更是照顾有加。陈华顺逝世后，叶问再随师兄吴仲素钻研拳技。到叶问十六岁那年，远离佛山 ，赴香港求学，就读于圣士提反学校，后经同学介绍，认识梁赞的儿子梁璧，并随其习武三年，尽得咏春真传，拳 艺突飞猛进。当他再回佛山时，包括吴仲素在内的同门诸师兄弟在拳艺上都远逊于他。以后的数十年间，叶问常与 武术人士切磋交流，摄取各拳派的精华，使其拳艺达到炉火纯青的境界，又因其屡挫凶徒，屡败强手，秉承“习武 先立品”、“重节而轻利”的高尚武德，因此在佛山武术界被誉为咏春拳的第二位“梁赞”。
二、叶问是佛山武术文化传播的重要使者
　佛山咏春拳宗师梁赞(1826—1901)，原籍鹤山县古劳乡东便村，自幼随父在佛山筷子街经营“赞生堂 ”药材店，精通医术。少时喜武，广聘名师传授武功，曾随粤剧武生黄华宝学习咏春拳，对咏春拳可谓已“深得其 奥，建于化境”。当时不少武林人士慕名来佛山与其较量，俱为其所败，从而使咏春拳在南中国一带名声大振。但 梁赞因药店缠身，再加上咏春拳的教授方法比较困难和吃力，难以多收多教，学费比较昂贵，非一般人所能负担的 ，因此求技者多是一些富家子弟，因此当时“咏春拳”也被称为“少爷拳”，未能广授门徒，继其衣砵者，唯陈华 顺一人。而陈华顺在佛山桑园叶家宗祠设馆授徒，有成就的弟子仅吴小鲁、吴仲素、雷汝济、陈汝棉及叶问等人。 其中，只有叶问担当起推广和传播咏春拳的历史使命，成为佛山武术文化传播的重要使者。在叶问三十余年的教拳 生涯中，可分为佛山教拳和香港教拳两个不同阶段：
　（一）、佛山教拳
　1938年，日本侵略军占领佛山，佛山经济衰退，民不聊生。当时，叶问生活十分艰难，幸赖好友周清泉不时 接济，才得以度过难关。为报答周清泉接济之恩，叶问于1941—1943年间，在佛山永安路联昌花纱行内开 馆教授周清泉之子周光耀、外甥伦佳，以及郭富、陈志新、吕应、伦佳、周细等学习咏春拳，这些人成为叶问的第 一批门徒。
<br>　　叶问十分注重对徒弟的选择，他常说：“徒弟选择一个好师傅，固然难，但师傅选择一个好徒弟，更加困难。 ”作为一个以教拳为职志的人，能有这种心态，是难能可贵的，可见其对教拳的认真态度和对所教徒弟的高度责任 心。而郭富就是叶问在佛山挑选出来的一个好徒弟。当年，郭富在佛山永安路一间糖面铺打工，糖面铺对面就是联 昌花纱行。当郭富得知叶问在此教授咏春拳后，便托人找叶问拜师，却被叶问一口回绝。半年后，叶问终于被郭富 的诚意打动，才允许其同富家子弟一起学习咏春拳。1945年，受战争影响，糖面铺关闭，郭富失业后只好回到 平洲乡下，与师傅不辞而别。当叶问发现自己喜欢的徒弟离开佛山后，就亲自到郭富的乡下平洲夏教找他，于是就 在郭富家的祖屋，叶问和郭富一起练拳，手把手教郭富，郭富则更加用心地练武。在此后的近两年时间里，叶问经 常步行几十里路来到夏教，继续向郭富传授咏春拳术，并将自己的所有拳谱、药书让郭富翻抄记录了一遍。据说当 年叶问在香港逝世前，曾给弟子留下口信，以后要继续学习正宗的咏春拳，就到佛山夏教找郭富。足见，叶问对徒 弟郭富是十分推崇的。
（二）、香港教拳
　由于毗邻港澳以及相应的政治经济等因素，佛山武林人士很早就走出国门，到海外谋生。特别是在清末至大革命 失败、抗日战争初期及新中国成立前夕，都有大批武术家出走香港以至世界各地，客观上对佛山武术文化起到了传 播、推广的作用。叶问也是在这样的历史背景下从佛山来到香港。
　1948年11月，叶问为了家计，独赴澳门谋生。1950年初辗转到香港，终因举目无亲，难找职业，幸遇 旧友李民，劝其重新出教武技，暂为解决目前生活。[2]叶问姑且应允，在香港九龙大南街饭店职工总会开设第一个咏春班，不料竟以此成名，之后便在香港设馆授徒，一 直致力于咏春拳的普及与推广。1953年左右在九龙汝洲街三太子庙教拳；1954—1955年，在九龙饭店 职工总会教拳；1955—1957年，在九龙油麻地利达街教拳；1957—1962年，在香港李郑村屋教拳 ；1962—1963年，在香港大埔道61号兴业大厦教徒；1963—1965年，在大角咀福全街大生饭店 教拳，期间还在新蒲岗衍庆街教香港警务人员学拳；1965—1972年，返回通菜街住所，因年事已高，只作 个别教授；1968年咏春体育会成立，该会集授徒、研究、交流咏春拳术于一体，是香港著名的武术组织，叶问 曾在此主持过功夫班。经过20余年的苦心经营，叶氏门下桃李盈门，高徒辈出，著名的弟子有梁相、骆耀、黄淳 樑、徐尚田、招允、卢文锦、梅逸、李小龙、叶准、叶正等，其中功夫巨星李小龙的影响最大。
　叶问教拳从不挂牌，也不卖招生广告，以便拥有选择收徒弟的主动权，只要学者有心学技，他就会全力传授，绝 不厚此薄彼。他十分重视对初学者的基本训练，当传授小念头时，从正确手法、腰马配合到发力运用，从没有时间 限制，只有学者达到他的要求，他才会进一步教授新的课程。叶问教拳的另一特点就是量才而教，他对每一个学者 的心理、个性、身材体魄、知识程度、文化修养以及吸收能力等先作充分了解，再根据每个学者的不同需要，制订 相应的教授方法，以便学者更易学习和吸收。此外，他在教拳过程中极其注重黐手和自由搏击的练习，以培养学者 对咏春拳的兴趣和信心，再引导学者对咏春拳的法度和木人桩的研究。在教拳过程中，叶问还不断吸收力学、几何 等现代科学知识来解释咏春拳的法度，加以融会贯通，成就中华武术之大成。

叶问就像一位使者，对咏春拳的普及和推广做出了杰出的贡献。在他逝世后，门下弟子一致推崇他为咏春拳的一代 宗师，并继承先师遗志，将咏春的种子散播到世界各地。目前，全球有50多个国家和地区设有咏春拳馆，有数百 万人在练习咏春拳，咏春拳成为世界上最流行的拳种之一。咏春拳的历史可谓是起于严咏春、衍于梁赞、盛于叶问 。

三、“叶问堂”是佛山武术文化的历史见证
　佛山是叶问的故乡，也是咏春拳的根之所在。继叶问之后，一代咏春名师在这里崛起，活跃在佛山武坛。为了纪 念叶问宗师，丰富佛山武术文化的内涵，使佛山逐步成为展示中国传统武术的重要窗口，佛山市博物馆于2002 年11月建成“叶问堂”，展示叶问宗师的生平事迹、教拳典范、门下高徒，吸引了大量游客参观，成为海内外咏 春弟子寻根拜祖、探求咏春真谛的重要场所，也为佛山武术旅游文化增添了新亮点，是佛山武术文化 的历史见证。
自2001年佛山“叶问堂”落成以来，叶问徒孙郭思牧师傅（早年跟随叶问之子叶准、叶正学习咏春拳）每年都 会专程率领他的外国弟子回佛山寻根拜祖，一是让外国弟子参观叶问堂，了解咏春拳的历史和叶问宗师的生平；二 是拜祭祖师爷叶问，向外国弟子传授中国“尊师重道”的良好美德；三是在现场与佛山咏春同仁一起表演和交流拳 术，探讨咏春拳的真谛。2008年1月，佛山市博物馆又对“叶问堂”进行扩建，推出《香港叶问宗师咏春拳系 展》，展示香港咏春拳的发展情况。以后，还将陆续推出世界各地叶问宗师咏春拳系展览，让咏春拳一代宗师的精 神永在，为后世门人所敬仰。

参考文献：
[1]佛山市博物馆.佛山祖庙[M].北京：文物出版社，2005：93.
[2]佛山市人民政府侨务办公室[M].广州：广东科技出版社，1990：141.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Leung Jan as recorded by the chinese goverment in Fatshan
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/mrmj/mrmj_disp_sub.asp?id=117
Clear mention of Leung Bik

梁赞（约1851-1918），武术名家　
佛山市博物馆网站——名人名家

　　梁赞（约1851-1918）鹤山县人。出生于佛山清正堂街家中。其父在佛山筷子大街市场内开设赞生堂药材店，精通岐黄医术。 丧父后，开始在店中行医，深得病家称道。人们惯称他为“佛山赞先生”。
　　梁少年时便喜爱习武。父亲生时，曾广聘名师传授武功。继承父业后更求深造，得友人梁佳介绍先后礼聘咏春 拳术传人黄华宝及其师弟梁二娣来佛山传技多年。两位前辈深喜梁英年勤奋，认为是可造之材，尽将咏春拳术奥秘 及少林六点半棍法悉心教授。黄华宝辞别之日告知梁赞，谓他本是少林门下弟子，一向遵师遗命少林弟子应以反清 复明为己任。嘱梁既已技成，可在佛山设馆授徒，从中物色人才，为反清复明积聚力量。梁赞遂于清光绪初在赞生 堂内收徒传技，除其子梁璧外，得衣钵真传的有陈华顺、陈桂、梁奇、雷汝济、叶问等。
　　咏春拳术经世代繁衍现在已成为武术界中一大宗派。名人辈出，扬名国内外。近代名家李小龙正是梁赞的徒孙 。

[PalmStriker]

Very informative thread. For those who have an interest in, or practice Wing Chun, or even incorporate these techniques or forms into their own studies, I thank you for the insight into the life and teachings of Yip Man and his lineage. :)

[Pacman]

If you look at Leung Sheung's WCK - it is so close to Yuen Kay Shan's. A few minor differences, a little tightening of movements, reversing the Huen Sao to inward (a Yip Man signature), but otherwise 90% the same . So is it really that much of a change? I think the Cheung Bo WCK has quite a few clips (the guy was Sum Nung's student before...) on youtube, and you can see the closeness with that and HK Yip Man WCK in the early stages.

even though things look similar, these differences can be important. for example the small differences in sil lim tao changes the meaning of what the movement represents. also the energy and intention behind the movements can be completely different, look at how sum dek performs siu lim tao on youtube vs other people.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Record of Chan Wah Shun battling Wong Fei Hong

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1497683.htm

与黄飞鸿切磋武艺
　　陈国基说，根据家史记载，陈华顺和黄飞鸿切磋武艺，有过精彩的故事。一天，黄飞鸿带著两个徒弟想找赞先 生比武，当时比赛的规矩是首先比桥手。赞先生个子较小，自认为桥手难胜，而黄飞鸿也不认识赞先生，所以赞先 生叫陈华顺代师比武压桥，陈华顺使尽九牛二虎之力才把黄飞鸿桥手压倒，接下来比手法，陈华顺又以内廉穿心掌 、双飞蝴蝶掌打败黄飞鸿的罗汉十八掌之铁闸关门。陈国基一边说故事，一边为记者表演蝴蝶掌，他说用这种掌可 以远距离攻击对手。三个月后，陈华顺又以六点半棍伏黄飞鸿的八卦棍。这次比武之后，黄飞鸿才知道他是陈华顺 ，由此陈华顺声名大振。陈国基说：“这些故事都有详细记载，前辈们切磋武艺，共同提高的精神令 人景仰。”

[Shadow_warrior8]

I was talking about Shunde Wengchun( 顺德永春拳 找錢華 拳術) and the Sets and the book was talking about, the forms
And this 3 forms are found in Shunde Wengchun/Chan Yiu Ming Lineage

Fakuen
Fut Jeung http://www.56.com/u95/v_NDA5MjYwNjg.html
Fok Fu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGyg5GA1h8
http://www.56.com/u97/v_MTMzMDgwNjI.html
陈华顺（找钱华）传下来的永春十多套拳套之一“伏虎”。

Sharing more on the fist from my hometown, Shunde
http://www.56.com/u91/v_NDU0NjA3MDQ.html
http://www.56.com/u94/v_NDEyNDk5OTU.html
http://www.56.com/u79/v_MjIyNzUwNjg.html
http://www.56.com/u46/v_NDU0NjA4MzU.html

永春拳小念头四门
http://www.56.com/u54/v_MTM4NjI4NTk.html
http://www.56.com/u54/v_NDc3NDYwMjc.html
陈汝棉系永春小练四门 (由顺德谭焕标师父的弟子表演的陈汝棉系永春小练头与四门拳。陈汝棉系永春可以将小练头与四门拳 连在一起来 演示) Sil Lim Tao, and 4 doors

Chum Kil
http://www.56.com/u39/v_MTM4NjMxOTY.html

Sil Lim Tao
http://www.56.com/u82/v_MTM4NjI1MzU.html

找钱华永春拳 wooden dummy set
http://www.56.com/u69/v_NDM5ODc5MTQ.html

Enjoy....

[Shadow_warrior8]

Shaolin Weng Chun aka Shunde Weng Chun aka Chan Yiu Ming Weng Chun

Sets and names.

少林永春拳套路
本門所習內容比較全面，包括拳套，器械，樁法，實戰黏手，運氣發力，手法及身形腰馬的變化等。套路本身沒有 級別高低之分，只有先練習與後練習之分，先練的為後練的打好基礎，後練的要融會貫通到前練的。拳為種棍為師 所以一般以拳套為主導到中級階段就可以練習行者棍法，到了高級階段才能練習長棍法。

初級拳套：

偏身拳：為入門基礎，主要掌握好出拳發力，轉馬鉗力，身腰馬橋的協調性。

小練頭：為永春拳基本手法，小練之意為從小練起一直練到老，可見小練的重要性.通過手法練 習掌握運氣和發力點。

四門：四門與小練頭原屬一套，名為小練尋四門，小練頭為上部不開馬，四門為下半部開馬打四門，四門重點瞭解 外四門和內四門和後面的蝴蝶雙飛走麒麟。

紅砂手：在其他套路抽取三十六點散手而成，為敗馬拳，所謂未學打先學走，是一套邊敗走邊回馬反 擊的套路。

伏虎拳：是一套以攻為主剛柔發勁更加要求腰馬轉身長橋發力，剛中帶柔，拳打八角，是一套場上混 戰的拳術。

中級套路：行者棍，沉橋，樁拳，標指。

高級套路：佛掌，一路花拳，二路花拳，六點半棍。

其他器械有大刀，樸刀，大鈀，蝴蝶雙刀等。

[chusauli]

The above curriculum is remarkably long like Pao Fa Lien and what the Cho family taught. It contains WCK, but I think many Weng Chun elements are Opera Fist elements and not necessarily what we are referring as WCK.

WCK is the essence of the essence. I do see perhaps Leung Jan's Gu Lao/Ku Lou is a simplification of these elements and concentrates on the application, rather than sets.

If I retired and only a few years to live, I'd probably only teach a core of essentials and forget about leaving behind all the forms.

I am glad in Shunde, this is preserved, but more as a time capsule. Modern WCK has still evolved and continues on in the modern world.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The above curriculum is remarkably long like Pao Fa Lien and what the Cho family taught. It contains WCK, but I think many Weng Chun elements are Opera Fist elements and not necessarily what we are referring as WCK.

WCK is the essence of the essence. I do see perhaps Leung Jan's Gu Lao/Ku Lou is a simplification of these elements and concentrates on the application, rather than sets.

If I retired and only a few years to live, I'd probably only teach a core of essentials and forget about leaving behind all the forms.

I am glad in Shunde, this is preserved, but more as a time capsule. Modern WCK has still evolved and continues on in the modern world.

Yes Sifu Robert, alot of the WengChun fist footage looks so much like Shaolin Tao, Sui Da, Fa Kuen. The similarities are uncanny....

Wondering if they had any exchanges in Guangzhou, Fatshan or Shunde.

The fact is that we really interprete the fist as individuals, and then pass it down as our understanding. Whatever the people who learn it do with it, try to do exactly or improve it, depends on the unique ability of the person. Thanks for your input.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee's father, Dim Mak etc....
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik

http://cache.qihoo.com/wenda.php?do=snap&act=fetchHtmlsnap&m=b18b844601a6b34e0b7cbf8c36f946c1&surl=http&#37;3A%2F%2F1293633.qzone.qq.com%2Fblog%2F12 28575809&kw=%D5%E2%BE%CD%CA%C7%C8%EE%C6%E6%C9%BD%D3%BD%B4%B A
http://bbs.ttx.com.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardid=16&id=1265345&star=1&page=1 . . . . . . . . . . . . http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/11/20081112112113-1.htm
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/06/20080618175756-1.htm
http://gulao.heshan.gov.cn/html/2003/08/20030814102711-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2008/01/20080110111915-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2007/03/20070320174136-1.htm
. . . .
These links don't work. Is there another link to them somewhere?