its because of this guy kung fu has a bad rap! LMAO

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc&NR=1

[AdrianK]

James Randi is one of my heroes. I saw this video awhile back, its hilarious.

[SIFU RON]

EXCELLANT - THANK YOU :cool:

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOL4i735TME&feature=related

check out 3:50 dude reminds me of paulie zink trying to mimci GM Chan the Monkey King of Hong Kong Cinema fame...

[wetwonder]

The fella, "Amazing Randy," always had a fatal flaw with his argument.

He said that he would award a $10,000 prize for proof that chi is for real, and that b/c nobody could prove it to him and collect the money, that shows it doesn't exist.

This rationale speaks to our Western attitude that something is only true where it can be "proven" to the satisfaction of the many (eg., scientists, etc.). And the attitude that a money award will lure out the proof if it does exist.

But maybe, when a person develops that level of chi, he/she no longer has use for money. Or maybe, the mindset that is required to develop chi is opposite to the mindset that seeks money rewards.

Also, maybe once a person has chi, he/she has no desire/need to prove to the masses. Perhaps the desire to keepi it secret and sacred goes along with acquiring it.

So, I'm not cynical about "indiviual powers," whether they be chi, qi, psychic ability, or whatever other names are used. People like the Amazing Randy - who are so certain about their beliefs, so intent on proving their beliefs, and so invested in the scientific method of experimentation and proof - live in a very small bubble.

[David Jamieson]

The fella, "Amazing Randy," always had a fatal flaw with his argument.

He said that he would award a $10,000 prize for proof that chi is for real, and that b/c nobody could prove it to him and collect the money, that shows it doesn't exist.

This rationale speaks to our Western attitude that something is only true where it can be "proven" to the satisfaction of the many (eg., scientists, etc.). And the attitude that a money award will lure out the proof if it does exist.

But maybe, when a person develops that level of chi, he/she no longer has use for money. Or maybe, the mindset that is required to develop chi is opposite to the mindset that seeks money rewards.

Also, maybe once a person has chi, he/she has no desire/need to prove to the masses. Perhaps the desire to keepi it secret and sacred goes along with acquiring it.

So, I'm not cynical about "indiviual powers," whether they be chi, qi, psychic ability, or whatever other names are used. People like the Amazing Randy - who are so certain about their beliefs, so intent on proving their beliefs, and so invested in the scientific method of experimentation and proof - live in a very small bubble.

randi is a skeptic.

he offers an opportunity to any and all to prove without a doubt that what they claim is indeed real. to date, no one has passed the preliminary exam!

he doesn't offer 10,000, he offers just over a million dollars USD through his foundation for anyone to step up and show the world. He wants to see it himself and that's why he offers so much money.

You are starting to look a little like a pollyanna there wet wonder.

If people don't need to show this, why do they make these claims and when asked to prove it, they inevitably fail.

what does that tell you?

The world would be a better place if people were slightly more adept at their skills in critical reasoning and critical thinking instead of chasing rainbows and unicorns, which is foundationally idiotic and regressive as far as overall development goes.

even zen masters hit idiots and slackers with hard canes. as in, wake the hell up! :)

[wetwonder]

If people don't need to show this, why do they make these claims and when asked to prove it, they inevitably fail.

what does that tell you?




I see your point DJ. I suppose my Hypothesis is that folks who genuinely have chi (1) don't make claims about it,(2) don't have desires to prove it to anyone, and (3) aren't swayed away from either of these two points by the lure of money.

And as to the people who are publicly making claims about having powers but are unable to prove them - they evidently do not have such powers.

The problem here is with the test that Randi uses to determine a truth. In my opinion, if there are actually people who have chi powers, then the only thing that Randi has proven is that he is far more concerned with pontification and money than they are.

[David Jamieson]

I see your point DJ. I suppose my Hypothesis is that folks who genuinely have chi (1) don't make claims about it,(2) don't have desires to prove it to anyone, and (3) aren't swayed away from either of these two points by the lure of money.

And as to the people who are publicly making claims about having powers but are unable to prove them - they evidently do not have such powers.

The problem here is with the test that Randi uses to determine a truth. In my opinion, if there are actually people who have chi powers, then the only thing that Randi has proven is that he is far more concerned with pontification and money than they are.

we all have qi. we breath, ergo we have chi. some of us breath poorly and this facilitates our bodies poorly and manifests itself as bad health in the long run. some of us employ qi properly and benefit from it.

it is accessible to all, it is not a magic power. to raise it to that level is what is ludicrous really.

[wetwonder]

You may be right. I just don't know.

[tattooedmonk]

You may be right. I just don't know. He is right............

[brothernumber9]

I beleive that the amazing Randi never asked for proof of chi, but rather proof of abilities that could not at the time, or cannot be explained by science or trickery.
Ex: Telekinesis, ESP, able to see the future, Levitation, chicken exploding chi blasts, Vida Guerra's butt, etc.

[David Jamieson]

I beleive that the amazing Randi never asked for proof of chi, but rather proof of abilities that could not at the time, or cannot be explained by science or trickery.
Ex: Telekinesis, ESP, able to see the future, Levitation, chicken exploding chi blasts, Vida Guerra's butt, etc.

you are correct. he aks for proof of paranormal abilities.

people who claim to be able to move things without touching them or people who claim to be able to speak to the dead and so on. Essentially, he asks for anyone to come in and show that they can do this under regular and normal conditions.

To date, no one has. he is the needed bane to "psychics" who forever fleece people who seek answers that they can't have. People who are incapable of accepting reality are in no shortage after all and serve as sheep to be fleeced by many a crafty charlatan.

Randi does a service to us all with his foundation. He openly allows any of them to set up what they need to without allowing for trickery and one by one they fail.

It is unfortunate that people don't get it yet. Man, I will be so happy on that day when the social construct allows each and every one of us to see reality for what it is and to stop wasting our time with tribal nonsense and hoodoo voodoo crap.

what a great place the world will be!

[wetwonder]

He is right............

Certainty about the world is a comfort I've never enjoyed.

[wetwonder]

you are correct. he aks for proof of paranormal abilities.

I was commenting on Randi in the context of this thread, where the post shows a youtube video about a proclaimed shaolin master using the powers of chi to move objects as proof to Randi. In this example, the subject was chi.

[David Jamieson]

Certainty about the world is a comfort I've never enjoyed.

open your eyes then. that's about all it takes.
critical reasoning will serve you well in your life and save you from the agony of wasted years either doing nothing or chasing waterfalls.

for me there are three factors.

cause/effect/consequence

if you are the guide of cause, you can know effect and accpet consequence good or bad. It is an infinitely more worthwhile approach to living in my opinion.

I also believe that everyone should be allowed to make their own mistakes.
It is in my view, our individual right to accel or to fail dependent upon those three factors and whether or not we are aware of them or not.

[David Jamieson]

I was commenting on Randi in the context of this thread, where the post shows a youtube video about a proclaimed shaolin master using the powers of chi to move objects as proof to Randi. In this example, the subject was chi.

the subject was that the karate dude claimed to have secret powers that he claimed to attribute to chi.

he did not have powers and shouldn't have claimed they were attributable to qi and he shouldn't have claimed the chi is anything more than what it is, which is simply "breath"

[AdrianK]

He said that he would award a $10,000 prize for proof that chi is for real, and that b/c nobody could prove it to him and collect the money, that shows it doesn't exist.

You mistake it completely.
He's asking the huge amount of frauds, to step up to the plate and prove that their tricks are legitimate paranormal powers.

No one stepping up does not mean it does not exist, it simply means there is no proof that it does.



I suppose my Hypothesis is that folks who genuinely have chi (1) don't make claims about it,(2) don't have desires to prove it to anyone, and (3) aren't swayed away from either of these two points by the lure of money.

Yet they're not mature enough to understand how good they could do if they shared their so-called secrets, with the world? Children are dying from disease every day - Tens of thousands of People are being slaughtered, sold into slavery, living in a very real hell, and these people just choose to keep their powers to themselves?

They're either frauds, selfish *******s, or their "powers" aren't really all that powerful.

[wetwonder]

AdrianK,
I just can't take you anywhere.

[AdrianK]

Maybe your chi fireball can fix that.

[wetwonder]

They're either frauds, selfish *******s, or their "powers" aren't really all that powerful.


AdrianK,

What's telling about you is that listed only those three as possibilities. So evidently you don't think there are any other possibilities then. Do you believe in a God or higher intelligent power?

[AdrianK]

I listed those three possibilities as the only thing, barring some extraordinary circumstance, that they would want to keep their powers a secret.

If you have any possibilities to add, please enlighten me. But as far as I see it, you either have the power and are too selfish to share it with a world in need, or you don't.

There is no reason for a person to hold such secrets to themselves. If someone wants to use the powers for "Evil", well theres plenty of guns out there that do a more efficient job with no years of dedicated training required.

As far as a god goes, my belief or disbelief is irrelevant. I hope there is, but blind faith will not make it so. Given my current years of experience, I find it hard to believe that there isn't something, but I wouldn't be incredibly surprised if there isn't.

There are many scientific studies published on a wide variety of paranormal occurrences - No one is disputing that there is more to our world than we currently know or can prove. There are things discovered that change our view of the world and what is possible, on a daily basis. But thats not the point.

The point is, the smartest, brightest minds in the world have not been able to prove or produce paranormal abilities in human beings at this time. Thats a FACT. And you expect me to believe some asshat kung fu teacher has achieved it?

I believe someday the human race will be well versed in higher states of consciousness, and possibly paranormal powers. But that time more than likely is not now, and its probably not ever gonna be developed by that guy who practices kung fu in that place down the street. Or whatever similar situation you'd like to attach to that.


I'd love to be proven wrong. Just as James Randi would love to be proven wrong as well.

[wetwonder]

I'm going to adress your last post by posing a hyposthesis. This will be on the basis of some materials I've read about chi. For eg., it is often described, albeit in the simplest of terms. as a/the life force of nature. Like the force in Star Wars, to use a tangible example.

The hypothesis starts here with some ideas - First, as a person harnesses chi, the more integrated he/she becomes with this force of nature. Said another way, the more and more chi a person can harness, the more and more integrated that person becomes with the force of nature. A very, dynamic, integrated part of nature. Let's just say that is the assertion. That seems to jive with some of the stuff I've read about chi. (Of course, this is if chi does in fact exist, as it has been impressed in Asian Culture. We're going to say yes for the sake of this example.)

That said, ask the follwoing question: In nature - let's call it "Mother Nature," which is a representation that most people understand - where does Mother Nature come down on battles within her Kingdom. For example the battle between a disease virus and a person it is attacking. The virus has some need to attack, probably related to survival. And the person's body has a need to defend against it, probably related again to survival. In this circumstance, where does Mother Nature side. Does she side with the disease? Or does she side with the person defending against it? Another way to ask this question is "what are Mother Nature's values over the Kingdom?" In reality, sometimes the disease wins at the expense of the person. And sometimes the person wins at the expense of the disease. There is a winner and loser often, and it could be either.

In my opinion, most people would agree that Mother Nature does not take sides. She just let's it all shake out. That's her values over those questions. People die, and their particles breakdown and become the basis for some new organized part of nature. Or the disease dies and the same happens. Things change from one part of nature to another. Similar to the concept that we are all made of particles that came out of dying stars. I think people would agree that as long as that dynamic change is taking place, that Mother Nature would be satisfied and would not take sides.

That said, here's the second assertion. A person who has harnessed chi - to a level that transends what Westerners understand as the ordinary laws of physics - has become pretty well integrated with nature to do it. They are now intertwined, as natures energy is at a very high level in the body, and the body relies on this energy to maintain this chi state. So in this case - what values does the chi practicioner take on? Does he take the Western science/culture values that doing good is killing disease in every case for the benefit of mankind. Or does he take on Mother Nature's values, that we don't take sides here, as long as the dynamic change keeps happening.

My assertion is that to the highest level chi practicioner, he/she would not take sides. Who wins these battles is not important. The practicioner would let Randi do his thing, b/c that is his natural way. The practioner would permit you to keep believing/questioning as you grow old, b/c that is natural. He/she would live apart from such things.

From here, you may consider whether if you are open to debating and questioning your own sense of certainty. Specifically, that there are more than the three possibilities. So-

Possibility #4 - The battle of diseases, suffering, etc, are not problems from the perspective of nature. Therefore the chi practicioner does not recognize any necessity to get involved and take sides. As long as the dynamic changes of all parts of nature occur, all is as it should be.

AdrianK, I don't know if the above is true or right, but I do know that there are probably more mysteries in the universe than I have the capacity to understand.

[Drake]

So if you have no need for money, show the world that this stuff exists, and give the money to charity. Masters have shown their skills for years via demonstrations, such as GM DFW showing his ridiculously effective push hand skills. He doesn't do it for money, but he does show that he's not hogwash, and that it is possible to learn it. If you make an assertion, you need to be able to back it up.

I swear this board has more logical flaws than a Uwe Boll movie.

[wetwonder]

Thanks for the conversation.

[diego]

So if you have no need for money, show the world that this stuff exists, and give the money to charity. Masters have shown their skills for years via demonstrations, such as GM DFW showing his ridiculously effective push hand skills. He doesn't do it for money, but he does show that he's not hogwash, and that it is possible to learn it. If you make an assertion, you need to be able to back it up.

I swear this board has more logical flaws than a Uwe Boll movie.

do you have a link to DFW's push hands please?

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBndJQb9CMc

[Drake]

do you have a link to DFW's push hands please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0GyNdvlqE4

[taai gihk yahn]

the "mistake" is to actually look for "qi" as a discreet entity - as some kind of "force" that while many claim to be able to "harness" it subjectively, has yet to be objectively measured;

it's actually quite simple - consider pre-industrial Chinese "technology": of course, having no knowledge of cellular function and the like, the Chinese derived, based on their empirical study of the way that the body / individual functions both in terms of its internal milieu and in relation to the world / universe around it, a descriptive system thereof based on observation of (mostly) relatively macro phenomena; what they described were the observable aspects of the interaction of functional interrelationships going on in the body: the net effect of cardiovascular, respiratory, endocrine, neuromusculoskeletal, gastrointestinal, psychological, etc. function manifested as an interplay of all these different systems; being unable to directly observe the way these systems functioned on a cellular level, they employed the metaphor of "qi" as a functional descriptor; as such, all the different energies in the body (thermal, electrical, kinetic, molecular) are not "qi" per se, but are components of the operations that "qi" describes - so "qi" is not a "separate" thing - it is a descriptor of net effect; which is why it "works" as a system, because it basically is a method for getting a handle on the tensegrity based structure & complex systems / non-linear function of the body;

so-called "western" thought is essentially reductionist first / integrative second and is also anti-metaphorical; Chinese medicine OTOH uses metaphor to describe things all the time; although, "qi", the character, is a visual depiction of rice fermenting - so actually pretty concrete...

[diego]

the "mistake" is to actually look for "qi" as a discreet entity - as some kind of "force" that while many claim to be able to "harness" it subjectively, has yet to be objectively measured;

it's actually quite simple - consider pre-industrial Chinese "technology": of course, having no knowledge of cellular function and the like, the Chinese derived, based on their empirical study of the way that the body / individual functions both in terms of its internal milieu and in relation to the world / universe around it, a descriptive system thereof based on observation of (mostly) relatively macro phenomena; what they described were the observable aspects of the interaction of functional interrelationships going on in the body: the net effect of cardiovascular, respiratory, endocrine, neuromusculoskeletal, gastrointestinal, psychological, etc. function manifested as an interplay of all these different systems; being unable to directly observe the way these systems functioned on a cellular level, they employed the metaphor of "qi" as a functional descriptor; as such, all the different energies in the body (thermal, electrical, kinetic, molecular) are not "qi" per se, but are components of the operations that "qi" describes - so "qi" is not a "separate" thing - it is a descriptor of net effect; which is why it "works" as a system, because it basically is a method for getting a handle on the tensegrity based structure & complex systems / non-linear function of the body;

so-called "western" thought is essentially reductionist first / integrative second and is also anti-metaphorical; Chinese medicine OTOH uses metaphor to describe things all the time; although, "qi", the character, is a visual depiction of rice fermenting - so actually pretty concrete...

Cool post, one thing that really interests me is what they call spiritual postures... when I was younger and took some bad medicine ;):p:D during the come down my spine would convulse all over the different vertebrae and all I could do is lay on my back for an hour twitching...eventually I would end up in a kow tow postition praying to the lords of mercy to help me sweat the substances out of my tissues.

even now when I am so stressed out where I can't even sit down and stretch to relax the kowtow posture works miracles...thing is Mohammed said the Angel Gabriel told him to do the kowtow as the only proper prayer to ALLAH...in the gaza documentary where that reporter james guy was killed the 12 year old boy disses the jews with their beads doing half ass prayers to god while the muslems kiss the dirt to honour their being to the creator.

this posture centers all of the joints and takes all of the work off the heart...whenever i have a flu I will bow and keep my third eye (forehead) in the pillow and I'll rest the back of my wrists on the floor by my butt. awesome pose to bring the body back into homeostasis.

The west loves Yoga postures it's all the rage for the last thirty years, especially in Vancouver.

What interests me is the Bhodisatva Warrrior poses famous in kung fu...they talk about yi and chi using intent to control the blood for full internal power...to me that means the posture is full blood flow and maximum oxygen usage so now the tissues move like a machine opposed to the standard posture of the average Joe who moves around like his Idea is the puppet master and his fat ass just waddles like a puppet on a string... so we are told to do stances for decades before we can dance with internal power...you hold the stances for a long time and then one day you are that posture...you are always warmed up, an internal master...

they always tell you warm up before a work out 10-15 minutes prior to...in ufc they get an hour to prep for a fight...on the street you will get beat up while blowing your nose...maybe that's why bhudda made them stand in horse for decades so they would always be prepped...

whatever it is it's cool that these posutures travel for generations and get added to...japanese kenpo has the damo yoga...muslim wushu has it too... trippy from a scientific perspective, cool from a bhuddists pov.

[diego]

"Now, you listen to some of these so-called sports-medicine experts today–%@*&! It’s just shtick. It’s just something else to sell. Warming up is the biggest bunch of horse%@$# I’ve ever heard in my life. Fifteen minutes to warm up! Does a lion warm up when he’s hungry? ‘Uh-oh, here comes an antelope. Better warm up.’ No! He just goes out and eats the sucker. You gotta get the blood circulating, but does the lion cool down? No, he eats the sucker and goes to sleep. And that is the truth." quote jack lallanne http://www.theiflife.com/2008/09/24/jack-lalanne-speakswe-should-listen/

I've always wondered how do you warm up on the street and then I read jack lallanne's quote...he just does endurance tests every few weeks and od's on liver for the b vitamins...

what does it akll have to do with "QI" "CHI" PRANA"

[sanjuro_ronin]

The difference is that, when the adrenaline is coursing through your veins, you ARE warmed up.
But the fact is, the majority of time it's not, so yes, warm-ups are good.
You don't need much more than enough to get a sweat going, unless you are doing high level explosive activities or flexibility.
Try deadlifting 2.5 times your BW without warming up, I'll go visit you in your hospital room and teabag you.
:D

As for lions, that would matter if I was a lion, I am not.

[diego]

The difference is that, when the adrenaline is coursing through your veins, you ARE warmed up.
But the fact is, the majority of time it's not, so yes, warm-ups are good.
You don't need much more than enough to get a sweat going, unless you are doing high level explosive activities or flexibility.
Try deadlifting 2.5 times your BW without warming up, I'll go visit you in your hospital room and teabag you.
:D

As for lions, that would matter if I was a lion, I am not.
Interesting I have the bottom of a centaur and the top of a god...:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting I have the bottom of a centaur and the top of a god...:)

:D
Your awesomeness is to awesome for words.