Northern Mantis Groundfighting.

[Hardwork108]

Hello,

I have come across references to Northern Mantis groundfighting techniques. The Wing Chun lineage that I practice has its own genuine ground fighting techniques and my sifu had told me that other major kung fu styles also have their own.

The first time that I heard about Northern Mantis ground fighting was in a magazine letters´ section where a 7 Star Mantis practitioner from Singapore mentioned that in his kung fu school the ground fighting aspects were trained as part of their curriculum.

Recently, the forum member EarthDragon who practices 8 Step Praying Mantis mentioned Mantis groundfighting. This made me very curious as I would like to learn more about how this style(s) of kung fu approach this area of combat.

So I would be grateful to see more info about this from EarthDragon and others who practice Northern Mantis.

Thanks in advance.

Hardwork108

P.S. Sorry if this subject has come up before.

[Kansuke]

The Wing Chun lineage that I practice has its own genuine ground fighting techniques .




And how are you doing with those?

[Oso]

.01 on the troll meter


Roy, are you sure you aren't ready to retire???? ;)

[yu shan]

My first thought after seeing this topic... this is going to have Threeharmonies flying out of his mawashi! Fire at will Jake, fire at will!

[EarthDragon]

I believe that most systems have techniques when fighting from a fallen position. Most fights usually end up on the ground, so it would be foolish to not have knowledge of what to do when this happens. While some systems spend almost all of thier time in these positions to say that kung fu does not is way off base.
when the UFC came about and starting becoming popluar my kung fu brother who was a born fighter asked our teacher to train him so he could enter. He said if you want to enter that type of competition you must train mantis on the ground.... we looked at each other and said but kung fu doesnt have ground techniques.. he said all complete systems have this otherwise they are not complete.
We would train to engage in sparring then to a jointlock then to a throw, then follow our opponent to the ground and proceed to use another lock untill one of us tapped. thios went on for months. sometimes we would start on the ground and work from the top or the bottom. while some of the techniques taught were definatly not kung fu looking my teacher said that to win that type of fighting you must fight and train the waty they do.
He went on to win his bouts in UFC 6 &7 seven being the bloodiest UFC match in history

[Three Harmonies]

ROTFLMAO - Great one Jim:D
Well, my mawashi is in the mawashi-machine, and frankly I have given up! People can believe what they wish! My words, nor my experience matter much to those set in their ways. To each their own!

Cheers
Jake

(flying out of my Mawashi..... that's funny **** right there!!)

[yu shan]

Hey Jake, glad you have a sense of humor today! ;) Sumo, what a way of life. Eat, drink, train, girls...

[Three Harmonies]

I have a sense of humor everyday bro! Some of y'all just don't care for it;)

Don't forget the mandatory Sumo nap!

[Hardwork108]

I believe that most systems have techniques when fighting from a fallen position. Most fights usually end up on the ground, so it would be foolish to not have knowledge of what to do when this happens. While some systems spend almost all of thier time in these positions to say that kung fu does not is way off base.
when the UFC came about and starting becoming popluar my kung fu brother who was a born fighter asked our teacher to train him so he could enter. He said if you want to enter that type of competition you must train mantis on the ground.... we looked at each other and said but kung fu doesnt have ground techniques.. he said all complete systems have this otherwise they are not complete.
We would train to engage in sparring then to a jointlock then to a throw, then follow our opponent to the ground and proceed to use another lock untill one of us tapped. thios went on for months. sometimes we would start on the ground and work from the top or the bottom. while some of the techniques taught were definatly not kung fu looking my teacher said that to win that type of fighting you must fight and train the waty they do.
He went on to win his bouts in UFC 6 &7 seven being the bloodiest UFC match in history

Thank you EarthDragon. I have not reached the groundfighting aspects of Siu Lam Wing Chun yet but I know that even on the ground the Wing Chun principles are adhered to using strikes and chin-na techniques.

It is so good to hear of Kung fu schools that teach complete systems completely!:)

If more schools did this then perhaps there would not be so much misunderstanding about the art(s) of kung fu that we see nowadays.

[Oso]

i had always heard that Sutton trained in other stuff prior to his UFC fight(s) not denying his kung fu roots but...


Jake: we agree on this one, i think :)

[Kansuke]

I have not reached the groundfighting aspects of Siu Lam Wing Chun .



But that hasn't stopped you from telling people with many, many, many times more experience grappling than you have experience with ANYTHING, what they do or do not know.

[Three Harmonies]

Jesus!!! Now the Wing Chunners are coming over to the Mantis group spreading their drama! Plenty of drama with the Mantis folks, leave us be please!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jesus!!! Now the Wing Chunners are coming over to the Mantis group spreading their drama! Plenty of drama with the Mantis folks, leave us be please!!

LOL !
Well said !
:D

[EarthDragon]

Oso,
If you are going to go into a cage type fight i would say that you wouod be foolish not to cross train. He did work a little with Kin tora judo guys and with some boxing coaches. But I can assure you shyun taught us ground fighting, I know becuase I was Joels partner in SF when he was training. Now weather or not the ground fighting that he taught was tradional 8 step we will never know, but it did incorporate our joint coks and throws and flowed seemlessly like all mantis does from the attack to the finish.

I remember a newspaper in S.F doing a story about him entering into the newly created UFC and the story was about tradional kung fu in this event
The photographer caught a picture of him pushing a water filled 55 drum up a hill.
Now many people will say this technique doesnt come from 8 step.. but as a
"8 step practioner or sifu" doing this would it be considered cross training or mantis?

[Three Harmonies]

Incorrect about one little aspect.....
It was NOT from Babu Tanglang! There is no record of ANY CMA have a comprehensive curriculum for ground combat, and Babu is certainly not the exception.

Jake

[EarthDragon]

Jake,
not to disagree as I said my teacher may have very well added ground work to 8 step to prepare us for the octogan, but I found this article on a webiste as I have found hundreds (too many to list here) but there are many about mantis ground fighting.


When a Seven Star Praying Mantis practitioner gains experience against other styles of fighting then he can apply the principles and concepts of his system to overcome each type of fighting approach. This includes, for example, grappling on the ground. Once the skills of a ground-grappling stylist are understood the principles and concepts of Seven Star Praying Mantis, such as redirection, joint manipulation, pressure point attacks, and trapping tactics can be employed to successfully neutralize and defend against this fighting range.

and robert (mantis 108) wrote this

Beside the 64 Sau Fa, TCPM also uses the Ground Mantis (Tei Tong Long) to train for ground fighting situations. This set has a section of sisscors legs (2 - 4 0f them) which I believe is where all the ground fighting techniques are hidden in. There is a believe that every Mantis set has a two mened mirror set. Currently only 2 men Bum Bo set remains. It is quite possible that the Ground Mantis's two mened set was lost as well. Personally, I think Mantis were one time very formidable amongst other styles was that they trained with a partner at all times. By this simple training practice, they gain the benefit of realistic drills (full speed and power) over and over again. Can you not be good if you are at it every day 2 to 3 hours constant drilling like that? Isn't it why the Boxing, KickBoxing, and NHB people critize Kung Fu. Somewhere along the line our training practices were changed. Isn't it time for us Kung Fu people
to look into this seriosly again?

so to say there is NO record of ANY CMA have a comprehensive curriculum for ground combat is false.....

[Three Harmonies]

Again, once more, their is a difference between having a few moves that you do when someone is STANDING ABOVE YOU, and their being a set curriculum for ground combat (TWO people are engaged on the GROUND!! NOT one standing above the other!).
Robert has admitted that the majority of the ground stuff he does with TWO PEOPLE on the ground is drawn from BJJ, and Sambo. I assume he has trained some with guests and what not in his hometown.
Neither of what you offer is viable. It is simply people stating an opinion, not fact. EVERYONE and their brother in the CMA community is talking about adaptation and how ground fighting has "ALWAYS" been in their curriculum. That is why it has been seen in demos, and videos, and tournaments all these years:rolleyes:
These are people simply trying to mask their fear of the unknown with a veil of a false reality.
I have a foot in both worlds, but I tell you something... the grappling / BJJ / Sambo / Judo community thinks that CMArtists are a ****ing joke! And frankly it has all been self perpetuated. We have done this to ourselves.
Have some dignity guys. It is okay to let go of the ego and admit "your" style does not have everything. Grapplers admit it. Thai Boxers admit. Western Boxers admit it. Why can't the CMA community as a whole admit it?

Cheers
Jake

[Kansuke]

Have some dignity guys. It is okay to let go of the ego and admit "your" style does not have everything. Grapplers admit it. Thai Boxers admit. Western Boxers admit it. Why can't the CMA community as a whole admit it?


Maybe because that might lead to admitting other unpleasant things?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, once more, their is a difference between having a few moves that you do when someone is STANDING ABOVE YOU, and their being a set curriculum for ground combat (TWO people are engaged on the GROUND!! NOT one standing above the other!).
Robert has admitted that the majority of the ground stuff he does with TWO PEOPLE on the ground is drawn from BJJ, and Sambo. I assume he has trained some with guests and what not in his hometown.
Neither of what you offer is viable. It is simply people stating an opinion, not fact. EVERYONE and their brother in the CMA community is talking about adaptation and how ground fighting has "ALWAYS" been in their curriculum. That is why it has been seen in demos, and videos, and tournaments all these years:rolleyes:
These are people simply trying to mask their fear of the unknown with a veil of a false reality.
I have a foot in both worlds, but I tell you something... the grappling / BJJ / Sambo / Judo community thinks that CMArtists are a ****ing joke! And frankly it has all been self perpetuated. We have done this to ourselves.
Have some dignity guys. It is okay to let go of the ego and admit "your" style does not have everything. Grapplers admit it. Thai Boxers admit. Western Boxers admit it. Why can't the CMA community as a whole admit it?

Cheers
Jake

Very well said. Tim would be proud ;)
Fact is, no style is an island and that has always been the case as we can see historically with the "great ones" cross training in other MA systems.

[Three Harmonies]

Thanks Ronin! I agree 100%!

Jake

[Oso]

ED: well, i have just never seen any style i've run across have more than some striking and joint locks that they maybe worked while prone. but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling.

[Oso]

and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....

[EarthDragon]

jake,
great post and I see validity in it believe me. I just tried to let hardwork know kung fu is not a standup only art and it does address the fighting from a fallen position. I am in no way comparing it to the ground styles.. but we arnt helpless when we go to the ground.



and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....

LOL but at least its something on the mantis board to discuss.been slow lately

but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling

I agree and in no way am I saying the ground work I was taught is 8 step. I am just saying that is not accuarate to assume kung fu has never adressed the ground or how to fight from it or becuse your on it.
even with the shuai chiao in our system its deals only with throwing...

[Oso]

ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn't 8 Step then is it even kung fu?

my first teacher was also a wrestler, my second teacher was also a judoka...they both added in elements of those things to round out our skills but never claimed they were cma.

SC may or may not have ground grappling...I haven't seen any of it though...and I've not seen a whole lot of SC either so, i just don't know.


it is safe to say that most kung fu IS basically a stand up art with a minimal percentage of it's attention (if any) paid to grappling on the ground...most kung fu doesn't even address a proper stand up clinch, mostly sticking to trapping and moving on.

[Hardwork108]

Jesus!!! Now the Wing Chunners are coming over to the Mantis group spreading their drama! Plenty of drama with the Mantis folks, leave us be please!!

I am here to learn and as you see the crap is coming from Kansuke (a friend of Sanuro´s) who does not practice any kung fu. He is here to troll and disrupt threads with his slanderous remarks.

So, it is best to ignore him and hopefully kansuke and Sanjuro ronin will quitely escort each other out of this thread to which they have not contributed as far as the thread subject matter is concerned.

[EarthDragon]

Oso,
ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn't 8 Step then is it even kung fu?

not quite sure I would have to ask my teacher... all he said was it was mantis ground fighting. But as we all know he has said a lot of things over the years that later found out to be embellished....

[Hardwork108]

and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....
Please show some respect. I started this topic to have a serious discussion about the ground fighting aspect of kung fu, specially Northern Mantis and to learn something from the people who actually practice/teach this potent style.

If you have fallen for the false image of me projected by the MMA community of this forum and you wish to start silly arguments, then please make your way to the main forum and go crazy. Otherwise make your peace and be respectful.

Thank you!

[Oso]

right.........

[Oso]

Oso,
ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn't 8 Step then is it even kung fu?

not quite sure I would have to ask my teacher... all he said was it was mantis ground fighting. But as we all know he has said a lot of things over the years that later found out to be embellished....

fair enough and, imo, not a bad thing at all.


Redfish said something on another thread about the nomenclature of the forms and how we are all doing the same kung fu irrelevent of the name...i thought that was good thinking and I think it can go another step further in that we are all after the same goal in martial arts...but the problem arises when pride and ego get in the way of simply saying "I don't know xxx".

The simple fix is to find someone who can teach you xxx or yyy as the case may be.

[Hardwork108]

Jake,
not to disagree as I said my teacher may have very well added ground work to 8 step to prepare us for the octogan, but I found this article on a webiste as I have found hundreds (too many to list here) but there are many about mantis ground fighting.

Actually when I think about it I appreciate that the Chinese masters who created the animal styles took many of the fighting "essences" of these animals and adopted it to humans.

When one thinks of an insect fighting then many times it is ground fighting.


When a Seven Star Praying Mantis practitioner gains experience against other styles of fighting then he can apply the principles and concepts of his system to overcome each type of fighting approach. This includes, for example, grappling on the ground. Once the skills of a ground-grappling stylist are understood the principles and concepts of Seven Star Praying Mantis, such as redirection, joint manipulation, pressure point attacks, and trapping tactics can be employed to successfully neutralize and defend against this fighting range.

This is my understanding of what happens in part in Siu Lam Wing Chun groundfighting. The groundfighting takes place "inside" the principles and concepts of WC, but using chi-na and striking techniques.



so to say there is NO record of ANY CMA have a comprehensive curriculum for ground combat is false.....

Agreed!

How can people claim that when wrestling arts were around in China long before kung fu and still continue?

Do the proponents of "no groundfighting" in kung fu believe that none of the masters who created the major kung fu styles foresaw a scenario where a fight would go to the ground?

Do some people think that the old masters thought that they would create all these lethal striking and Chi-na techniques that take years to master but did not bother to address the odd wrestler who may attack kung fu practitioner?

Yes you are right EarthDragon, many kung fu styles do address groundfighting. Wether these aspects are trained nowadays in the era of Mcdojos/kwoons, is another story.

That is why in the past I have had differences with people who would make comments like "there is no groundfighting in kung fu"; "kung fu has no power" etc. while themselves having had nothing more than a passing "flirtation" with TCMA and probably in a McKwoon to start with on their way to Muay thai, bjj and so on.

I believe that as your quote says a better understanding of the principles and concepts of an individual system will open many doors that will expose the richness of styles such as Praying Mantis. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

jake,
great post and I see validity in it believe me. I just tried to let hardwork know kung fu is not a standup only art and it does address the fighting from a fallen position. I am in no way comparing it to the ground styles.. but we arnt helpless when we go to the ground.



and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....

LOL but at least its something on the mantis board to discuss.been slow lately

but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling

I agree and in no way am I saying the ground work I was taught is 8 step. I am just saying that is not accuarate to assume kung fu has never adressed the ground or how to fight from it or becuse your on it.
even with the shuai chiao in our system its deals only with throwing...

Tim Cartmell did an excellent book ( did the translation) on CHin'Na that had quiet some ground work in it, including guard work, arm bars, leg locks and such.
Practicla Chin_na I think was the name.
I Highly recommend it.

[mantid1]

I have been training CMA for over 25 years now...have talked with alot of CMA instructors in that time period....I dont think that I have EVER heard anyone say that their particular style has ground fighting.

That is why we trained Judo (yes, we knew the difference between that and JJ) back in the 80's when I started. That is why I had to laugh when "MMA" became such a great idea..... my instructors had been doing that since the early 70's. Think about the money they could have made if they were good at marketing.

They never cared that CMA didnt have ground fighting or stand up grappling other than some joint locks....it is what it is. They just incorporated Judo/JJ and called it good if it worked.

They did spend time teaching the ground aspect with methods mentioned above...but their main concern was the stand up aspect....not going to the ground.

Face it....if you are law enforcent or even a bouncer in a bar the last place you want to be is on the ground with your arms and legs wrapped around the guy....even if he is controlled In the mma ring you dont have to worry about the judge and his friends putting a bullet in the back of your head or the judge and two of his friends kicking you in the teeth while you are controlling the other guy.

This must be an arguement for the new generation.

I think it also goes back to a point Three Harmonies made a while back. While I still hold my ground on the point the style does make a difference......it will boil down to the instructor like he said. If the style is great but the instructor lacks understanding...then it wont work. You need a great style or styles along with good instructor to make it happen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have been training CMA for over 25 years now...have talked with alot of CMA instructors in that time period....I dont think that I have EVER heard anyone say that their particular style has ground fighting.

That is why we trained Judo (yes, we knew the difference between that and JJ) back in the 80's when I started. That is why I had to laugh when "MMA" became such a great idea..... my instructors had been doing that since the early 70's. Think about the money they could have made if they were good at marketing.

They never cared that CMA didnt have ground fighting or stand up grappling other than some joint locks....it is what it is. They just incorporated Judo/JJ and called it good if it worked.

They did spend time teaching the ground aspect with methods mentioned above...but their main concern was the stand up aspect....not going to the ground.

Face it....if you are law enforcent or even a bouncer in a bar the last place you want to be is on the ground with your arms and legs wrapped around the guy....even if he is controlled In the mma ring you dont have to worry about the judge and his friends putting a bullet in the back of your head or the judge and two of his friends kicking you in the teeth while you are controlling the other guy.

This must be an arguement for the new generation.

I think it also goes back to a point Three Harmonies made a while back. While I still hold my ground on the point the style does make a difference......it will boil down to the instructor like he said. If the style is great but the instructor lacks understanding...then it wont work. You need a great style or styles along with good instructor to make it happen.

TO say that ALL CMA have ground fighting is wrong.
To say that NO CMA has ground fighting is also wrong.
Better to "debate" how effective the existing ground fighting is.

[mantid1]

Well, I never said that all CMA has ground fighting or no CMA has ground fighting. I said the people I have met never claimed to haver ground fighting....big difference.

Debating ground fighting is like debating the effectiveness of a hand grenade or getting a job will pay your bills. Some things are just to obvious to "debate"... even on a forum.

Who did you train kyokishin with in Canada? I once met a guy who trained it up there...gave hime some jow. He was big into breaking ice. He was a trapper....lived in the woods most of the year. Tough guy. I dont care if yor did mantis or bjj this dude would have given you a run for your money.

I have trained with some good kyokishin guys....great fighting style.

I think he would have laughed at internet forums and people "talking" about fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I never said that all CMA has ground fighting or no CMA has ground fighting. I said the people I have met never claimed to haver ground fighting....big difference.

Debating ground fighting is like debating the effectiveness of a hand grenade or getting a job will pay your bills. Some things are just to obvious to "debate"... even on a forum.

Who did you train kyokishin with in Canada? I once met a guy who trained it up there...gave hime some jow. He was big into breaking ice. He was a trapper....lived in the woods most of the year. Tough guy. I dont care if yor did mantis or bjj this dude would have given you a run for your money.

I have trained with some good kyokishin guys....great fighting style.

I think he would have laughed at internet forums and people "talking" about fighting.

I was ranked Nidan under Shihan Roman in '93.
I've trained under a few different Sensei's in my time.

[EarthDragon]

shuai Chiao, (Chinese wrestling) although 8 step has adopted only 40 "throws" of this style where is the ground fighting in it? its called wrestling is must wrestle? can anyone elaborate?

[sanjuro_ronin]

shuai Chiao, (Chinese wrestling) although 8 step has adopted only 40 "throws" of this style where is the ground fighting in it? its called wrestling is must wrestle? can anyone elaborate?

There is some ground work in Shuai Chiao, part of the Chin-na curriculum I think.

[mantid1]

Sounds like you have had some great training. But, I bet if you go back to your instructors and ask their opinions of "debating" about ground fighting...or any fighting for that matter... they will have the same opinion that I have....even if they are peace loving canadians. They will probably to tell you to stay off of the internet...it wont help your fighting at all.

Have a good day!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds like you have had some great training. But, I bet if you go back to your instructors and ask their opinions of "debating" about ground fighting...or any fighting for that matter... they will have the same opinion that I have....even if they are peace loving canadians. They will probably to tell you to stay off of the internet...it wont help your fighting at all.

Have a good day!

LMAO !
Good point.
:D

[EarthDragon]

LOL how true........ but one must realize that ON the kung fu forum is the most fighting these guys will ever do! only in this day and age is the keyboard a weapon...........In the old days you would use it only to smack someone across the face with it.....

I got into a fight at a college frat party long time ago and when I thinking that it wasnt go to go my way I picked up a rotary dial phone and hit one of the guys across the the face with it...... I never had that chance with a computer.... LOL

[BeiTangLang]

See Oso! Thats why I do not shut them down too quickly.

My take/opinion is this:
These fighting methods were designed with groups & battlefields in mind. Somebody tossed you to the ground & either your allies or theirs stuck a weapon in one of you, game over. The ground is a fickle place to be if you are not 1 on 1.

As far as mantis goes, I have seen ground technique. Not a lot of it though the the main goal of what I did see was to cya untill you were on your feet again. This makes sense to me when I take into consideration what the system was desinged for.

The fastest racecars in the world cant keep up with a jeep off-road. Everyhting is designed for something....not everything.

Best wishes to you all,
~BTL

[EarthDragon]

I think BTL does a wonderful job of monitorng this board. Even if a thread gets off track momentarily I think there are enough of us mature grownups to get it back on track. this board should never be cofused with the main board.. its just a playground over there

[Three Harmonies]

The only CMA that can be credited with battlefield arts is Xing Yi, and as I study and probe deeper I am finding little proof of that as well. None the less if you are thrown on the battlefield you are ****ed! Ground work was just not an intelligent option.

Shuai Chiao does not have any ground curriculum! Some SC teachers have even been quoted as saying ground fighting was akin to "Dogs rolling in the dirt!" Now how much has the art changed over the years....don't know. For instance their used to be many sacrifice throws in SC, but have been removed for modern competition. Some like the "Pillow Toss" were removed because you would land on your opponents ribs often causing injury.
So was there ground work in SC? Unlikely. To argue that it is a "wrestling / grappling" style as the foundation of your argument that ground work must have been included is not very solid.

Jake

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only CMA that can be credited with battlefield arts is Xing Yi, and as I study and probe deeper I am finding little proof of that as well. None the less if you are thrown on the battlefield you are ****ed! Ground work was just not an intelligent option.

Shuai Chiao does not have any ground curriculum! Some SC teachers have even been quoted as saying ground fighting was akin to "Dogs rolling in the dirt!" Now how much has the art changed over the years....don't know. For instance their used to be many sacrifice throws in SC, but have been removed for modern competition. Some like the "Pillow Toss" were removed because you would land on your opponents ribs often causing injury.
So was there ground work in SC? Unlikely. To argue that it is a "wrestling / grappling" style as the foundation of your argument that ground work must have been included is not very solid.

Jake

I thought Eagle Claw was created for the battlefield, whatever that means.

[Three Harmonies]

Nasty rumor. I have not seen any substantial proof of it. And think about it....

Correct me if I am wrong Sanjuro, but you are/were a bouncer no? In the short 6 years I bounced I can honestly say, chokes being the exception (and technically I was not allowed to choke anyone), Chin Na Fa (joint manipulation), is one of THE MOST difficult aspects of the Si Ji Fa (kick-punch-throw-lock) to pull off. Don't get me wrong I got my occasional wrist lock or shoulder lock, but overall very, very difficult to pull off even with years of training!
So the argument that soldiers were taught joint manipulation as there primary source of hand to hand combat quickly fades into the fantasy realm when looked at with a critical eye. You train soldiers as efficiently as possible. Joint manipulation would not be efficient. Nor as effective as say striking.

Just my two cents,
Jake

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nasty rumor. I have not seen any substantial proof of it. And think about it....

Correct me if I am wrong Sanjuro, but you are/were a bouncer no? In the short 6 years I bounced I can honestly say, chokes being the exception (and technically I was not allowed to choke anyone), Chin Na Fa (joint manipulation), is one of THE MOST difficult aspects of the Si Ji Fa (kick-punch-throw-lock) to pull off. Don't get me wrong I got my occasional wrist lock or shoulder lock, but overall very, very difficult to pull off even with years of training!
So the argument that soldiers were taught joint manipulation as there primary source of hand to hand combat quickly fades into the fantasy realm when looked at with a critical eye. You train soldiers as efficiently as possible. Joint manipulation would not be efficient. Nor as effective as say striking.

Just my two cents,
Jake

I have used standing joint locks when the patron is already "under control" and usually with another bouncer.
I would never trust my well being to a joint lock, even for any other reason than that I am commiting, typically, 2 limbs to his 1, not good odds.
ON THE ground joint locks/subs work well, standing, not so much.
besides that, they take too long to apply when, typically, there is always someone else to worry about.

As applied on the battlefield, past or present, I can see the study of ground work, simple because the chances of falling are pretty high and the application of strikes and clinches, but everything within the context of being armed or facing an armed person.

[Three Harmonies]

Good point!

[Oso]

BTL: bah...hardwork is a troll and should be burned ;)




3H & SR: yea, only thing chin na wise that I regularly got bouncing was some muscle grabs (don't forget 'chin na' includes more than joint manipulation) but bear hugs, chokes and the occasional arm bar/shoulder lock were the rule

[Kansuke]

I am here to learn and as you see the crap is coming from Kansuke (a friend of Sanuro´s) who does not practice any kung fu. He is here to troll and disrupt threads with his slanderous remarks.





Let's see, you've had about two years of actual training in kungfu. About the same as me. And of the two of us, who knows more about grappling? Hmmm? Why don't you STFU and go google something.

[Kansuke]

Face it....if you are law enforcent or even a bouncer in a bar the last place you want to be is on the ground with your arms and legs wrapped around the guy....even if he is controlled In the mma ring you dont have to worry about the judge and his friends putting a bullet in the back of your head or the judge and two of his friends kicking you in the teeth while you are controlling the other guy.





Ah, the old 'While standing one is immune from bullets and his friends will never get involved' theory. A classic.

[mantid1]

Ok then, lay on the ground and wrap your arms and legs around the dude....sneak a kiss while you are down there...have fun!

If you cant see the obvious disatvantage of being on the ground as opposed to standing.....well...I hate to be negative like this....but you lack experience in real life situations. Why fight at all...start out with a gun in the first place.

I ask myself again....why do I post here and why do I click on this site from time to time....

[Hardwork108]

The only CMA that can be credited with battlefield arts is Xing Yi, and as I study and probe deeper I am finding little proof of that as well. None the less if you are thrown on the battlefield you are ****ed! Ground work was just not an intelligent option.

I have heard that many styles including Tai Chi were battlefield arts as well. Some were apparently created by generals.

Of course that doesn´t mean that the practitioners are not going to be attacked on a one on one basis. Many masters and practitioners have fought challenge matches and sometimes one does not choose his challenger.

And again going back to the fact that this aspect of fighting is present in Siu Lam Wing Chun and was also taught by Earthdragon´s sifu using the 8 Step Mantis´s distinct fighting concepts and principles I would conclude that some styles of kung fu do address groundfighting.:)


Some SC teachers have even been quoted as saying ground fighting was akin to "Dogs rolling in the dirt!"

That reminds me of another style of kung fu that addresses groundfighting and that style is called DOG BOXING! :)

HW108

[Three Harmonies]

Well Junior you are mistaken. Taiji has never been even rumored to be a battlefield art. Just channel 5 fantasies!

Fukien Dog Boxing (which I have studied a little) has no ground fighting in it. Everything in the style has to do with one person on the ground and his opponent standing above him trying to strike, and or kick. Basically a number of sweeps, kicks, knee destructions etc. Nothing in the system address' the possibility of someone engaging you on the ground.

Cheers
Jake

[Hardwork108]

Well Junior you are mistaken. Taiji has never been even rumored to be a battlefield art. Just channel 5 fantasies!

I had read about past masters who were generals, but then if what you say is true then I stand corrected.


Fukien Dog Boxing (which I have studied a little) has no ground fighting in it. Everything in the style has to do with one person on the ground and his opponent standing above him trying to strike, and or kick. Basically a number of sweeps, kicks, knee destructions etc. Nothing in the system address' the possibility of someone engaging you on the ground.

I have never studied this system and I did not even know that there schools in the West that trained this style seriously. However I am still surprised that a style that has at least one exponent fighting from the ground does not address a scenario where the opponent perhaps follows one to the ground which is quite possible.

Especially where in at least our Lineage of Wing Chun (supposedly a 100% stand up art) and 8 Step Mantis, provisions are made for a groundfighting scenario. Is it possible that such a scenario exists in Dog Boxing but that perhaps in higher levels/grades?

Thanks.

[Oso]

blah blahblah blahblahblah blah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblahblah blahblah blahblahblah
Thanks.

hmmm...something seems to be wrong with the quote function...

[yu shan]

Mantid1, yea I wondered why a man at your level of training even responded to the troll. But as usual, you have good points and good information. Oso had this one pegged, he can smell out a troll.

[Kansuke]

.....well...I hate to be negative like this....but you lack experience in real life situations. ....



Yeah...try again...

[EarthDragon]

I think we can all agree that kansuke is also a troll, he got banned before his other screen name was unkanuoki or something like that... please keep these two on the main board dont bring that $hit over here guys please

[notanexit]

Question.If there is a extensive groundfighting curriculum in cma,then why are we having this discussion?If it was there,why did'nt any of the cma guys beat Royce Gracie in the 90's(when there were'nt many rules) when this UFC/MMA thing was getting started?Even though cma was here in the U.S. way before mma,we are now judged by their standards.I have not seen a mantis specific groundfighting game,the little I know is bjj.If there is mantis ground game,I would like to see it.

[mantid1]

Earthdragon

It is just to difficult to deal with a guy like kansuke. I have done some research into this gentlemen. His name is really Dale. In fact they recently made a movie about his life. This is a trailer to his movie...and I think he is much like others on forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANjenc4W1_Q

Hey kansuke....if your dad wont help you with your car insurance this year...maybe we can take a collection up for you the board?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys need to remember that ground fighting and ground grappling are not the same thing.
Technically speaking, ground fighting should INCOMPASS all, striking, grappling, weapons, while on the ground.
Fact is, not CMA covers ground grappling to the extend of Judo, much less BJJ or submission grappling.
And in terms of total ground fighting, those syetms that do train it are still, probably, far behind the curve compared to modern MMA and Vale Tudo oriented systems.
The issue being the use of weapons while downed that seems to be, currently, only addressed in a full contact environemnt by the Dog Brothers.

[EarthDragon]

Mantid1 LOL now that was funny.....

notanexit,
If it was there,why did'nt any of the cma guys beat Royce Gracie in the 90's(when there were'nt many rules) when this UFC/MMA thing was getting started?

I dont think this is fair question as it has to do to much with the skill leve of the fighter and not the style. I saw a TKD in the UFC kick someone, knock them out and won the bout.. this was becuse of the fighter not the style.

Same goes for tank abbott, hes just a tough ba$tard with no real formal training but he whoops a$$ with the best of them.

[MasterKiller]

Mantid1 LOL now that was funny.....

notanexit,
If it was there,why did'nt any of the cma guys beat Royce Gracie in the 90's(when there were'nt many rules) when this UFC/MMA thing was getting started?

I dont think this is fair question as it has to do to much with the skill leve of the fighter and not the style. I saw a TKD in the UFC kick someone, knock them out and won the bout.. this was becuse of the fighter not the style.. A TKD fighter kicking someone is representative of the style. There were no CMA fighters using ground techniques because ALL CMA technqiues, that were not borrowed from Judo or Jiu-Jitsu, involve attacking someone who isn't following you to the ground--lots of sweeps, upkicks, etc... But no ground grappling for position. Even CMA ground submissions are based on one guy standing or sitting on the grounded opponent.

You can argue that it makes sense for guys to have developed ground fighting, but there is absolutely NO PROOF before the 1936 publication of "National Methods of Self Defense" of CMA ground tactics resembling BJJ, Judo, or Jiu-Jitsu, which means those techniques were probably borrowed.

[Three Harmonies]

Precisely!

[shirkers1]

listen the only thing I know is jake has cudies and I don't want to roll with him any way.. just sayin' ... it's science.

[EarthDragon]

hardwork,
My apologies hardwork, and i read your posts and you are correct nothing you have said on THIS board was out of line or trollish IMHO, but because you came and posted on this board unfortunley others like dale kansuke followed... I am not saying its your fault at all.... as what these guys (with nothing better in their lives do) is to wake up and click on your name look at where you posted last and jump all over you the first chance they get ...

these guys must be in love with you to spend thier days just waiting to see where you post... must be nice to be that popular. remember in hollywood bad publicity is still publicty you must be someone for them to talk about you.. check their genders they might be girls or just fans

But seriously... I run a night club every weekend on the chip strip 40 bars all on the same street and the other week I had to stop a friend from comming in because of the crowd he was with... he said Mike you know me I aint gonna start any trouble.. I said I know YOU wont but your boys a punk and i either stop him from comming in now or I wait till he gets drunk and i throw him out later and i dont want to get my shirt dirty so i told him come back when hes not with stupid...

do you understand my point hardwork?

[Hardwork108]

Question.If there is a extensive groundfighting curriculum in cma,then why are we having this discussion?If it was there,why did'nt any of the cma guys beat Royce Gracie in the 90's(when there were'nt many rules) when this UFC/MMA thing was getting started?Even though cma was here in the U.S. way before mma,we are now judged by their standards.I have not seen a mantis specific groundfighting game,the little I know is bjj.If there is mantis ground game,I would like to see it.

I don`t think that anyone is saying that there is an "extensive" groundfighting curriculum in CMA. I believe that some of us are saying that some styles (major styles?) address groundfighting.

I would even add that the reason that some so called Kung fu practitioners have lost in MMA contests has more to do with the fact that they had not properly mastered the stand up aspects of their arts, rather than any "lack" of groundfighting techniques in TCMA.

I am talking about aspects such as proper rooting, power generation, breathing,Iron Palm/shirt and a more than a superficial understanding of the principles and contexts of ones particular style.

I believe that kung styles are by design stand up fighting systems. Some styles seem to address the groundfighting scenario as a last resort tactic. However, the problem nowadays specially with the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom (much larger than many people think),is that even the stand up skills are not properly trained, leading to the abscense of some or all of the aspects that I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

It seems that the stand up aspects of kung fu are trained incompletely in most schools (McKwoon phenomenom) nowadays and I believe that this is a fundemental fact that has to be considered when one is, in anyway, discussing the effectiveness of TCMAs.

[Hardwork108]

hardwork,
My apologies hardwork, and i read your posts and you are correct nothing you have said on THIS board was out of line or trollish IMHO, but because you came and posted on this board unfortunley others like dale kansuke followed... I am not saying its your fault at all.... as what these guys (with nothing better in their lives do) is to wake up and click on your name look at where you posted last and jump all over you the first chance they get ...

these guys must be in love with you to spend thier days just waiting to see where you post... must be nice to be that popular. remember in hollywood bad publicity is still publicty you must be someone for them to talk about you.. check their genders they might be girls or just fans

But seriously... I run a night club every weekend on the chip strip 40 bars all on the same street and the other week I had to stop a friend from comming in because of the crowd he was with... he said Mike you know me I aint gonna start any trouble.. I said I know YOU wont but your boys a punk and i either stop him from comming in now or I wait till he gets drunk and i throw him out later and i dont want to get my shirt dirty so i told him come back when hes not with stupid...

do you understand my point hardwork?

Thank you for your post.

I do understand your point however, I believe that it would be best for everyone here to ignore Kansuke`s provocative behavior. I am ignoring it after all. If he ends up talking to himself in every board, outside the main one, then I am sure that even he will get the message. Or at best we won`t get the back and forth trolling that happens on the main board.

Otherwise we end up giving him and his forum friends more power than they deserve.

What do you think about this? PM me if you like.

[shirkers1]

I don`t think that anyone is saying that there is an "extensive" groundfighting curriculum in CMA. I believe that some of us are saying that some styles (major styles?) address groundfighting.

I would even add that the reason that some so called Kung fu practitioners have lost in MMA contests has more to do with the fact that they had not properly mastered the stand up aspects of their arts than any "lack" of groundfighting techniques in TCMA.

I am talking about aspects such as proper rooting, power generation, breathing,Iron Palm/shirt and a more than a superficial understanding of the principles and contexts of ones particular style.

I believe that kung styles are by design stand up fighting systems. Some styles seem to address the groundfighting scenario as a last resort tactic. However, the problem nowadays specially with the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom (much larger than many people think),is that even the stand up skills are not properly trained, leading to the abscense of some or all of the aspects that I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

It seems that the stand up aspects of kung fu are trained incompletely in most schools (McKwoon phenomenom) nowadays and I believe that this is a fundemental fact that has to be considered when one is, in anyway, discussing the effectiveness of TCMAs.


where do I begin...



I would even add that the reason that some so called Kung fu practitioners have lost in MMA contests has more to do with the fact that they had not properly mastered the stand up aspects of their arts than any "lack" of groundfighting techniques in TCMA.

wrong... even a well skilled tma guy that has a "strong" stand up WILL NOT DO WELL IN AN MMA MATCH!!! Or at least if they are fighting an individual with any type of cross training. Much like a well skilled boxer not doing well in mma with only their striking background. mma is titled mixed martial arts for a reason.


I am talking about aspects such as proper rooting, power generation, breathing,Iron Palm/shirt and a more than a superficial understanding of the principles and contexts of ones particular style.

come on now... this is comical... iron palm will do little for you in a sporting aspect.

I do agree however that most of these schools don't even teach basics correctly or to the extent that they need to be. They are worried about quantity instead of quality. When I trained I didn't want 14 forms etc, I just wanted the basics and that's what I worked on and drilled into the ground. What is it that I was going to use? I wasn't going to pull a tactic out of laandzeed at a whim while in a conflict.. it's the basics that matter, you fight how you train period.

[Hardwork108]

wrong... even a well skilled tma guy that has a "strong" stand up WILL NOT DO WELL IN AN MMA MATCH!!! Or at least if they are fighting an individual with any type of cross training. Much like a well skilled boxer not doing well in mma with only their striking background.

But yet there have been strikers (none TCMA) who have knocked out MMA ists before they had to take the fight to the ground. For example Vovchenchin (spelling?).

Having said that, maybe I should have expanded my scenario to real fights as well. After all, many MMA advocates here see MMA contests as a realistic reflection of the effectiveness of a fighting art.



mma is titled mixed martial arts for a reason.


I think that the point of this thread would imply that so are TCMAs except for the fact that individual styles of kung fu train the different fighting aspects/scenarios within individual principles and concepts of those given styles.


come on now... this is comical... iron palm will do little for you in a sporting aspect.

I agree that Iron Palm`s forte is not the sporting arena but again it would give one the extra "penetration" and more when you think about the earlier bareknuckle MMA contests.

Furthermore, IP was just one aspect of kung fu that I mentioned in my previous post.



I do agree however that most of these schools don't even teach basics correctly or to the extent that they need to be.

Of course they don't and hence the bad reputation of TCMAs.


They are worried about quantity instead of quality.

Exactly!



When I trained I didn't want 14 forms etc, I just wanted the basics and that's what I worked on and drilled into the ground. What is it that I was going to use? I wasn't going to pull a tactic out of laandzeed at a whim while in a conflict.. it's the basics that matter, you fight how you train period.

I see your point even if I believe in the importance of forms training in a hollisitic TCMA training program.

[Kansuke]

Earthdragon

It is just to difficult to deal with a guy like kansuke. I have done some research into this gentlemen. His name is really Dale. In fact they recently made a movie about his life. This is a trailer to his movie...and I think he is much like others on forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANjenc4W1_Q

Hey kansuke....if your dad wont help you with your car insurance this year...maybe we can take a collection up for you the board?

Who the hell is 'Dale' and what the hell are you talking about?

????????????????????????????????????

[BeiTangLang]

enough. if you want to idle chat, pm people. stick with the topic.
~BTL

[Oso]

wow, something dragged shirkers1 out of the closet....

[KwaiChangCaine]

Aren't trolls little guys that live under a bridge?

[yu shan]

IMO, this topic was well worth it to bring our brother Shirkers1 out of retirement, welcome back.

BTW, after looking at your photo bucket thingamajiggy.. are you in the porn industry.

So to keep on topic, my ground fighting days are over. Busted shoulder that is hanging on by a thread.

[Oso]

show some vids of yourselves performing genuwine NPM ground techniques while citing historical sources...furthermore, explain how what you are doing fits within any known codified method that we can all understand and relate to; such as: any 12 Keyword formula, the 8 hard or the 12 soft...something...anything that is widely known to be 'mantis'

[/glove tossing]

[Oso]

Aren't trolls little guys that live under a bridge?

no, they are usually well known posters with too much time on their hands...or possibly associate editors...and maybe Spam...or flan...but not bacon sammiches.

[Three Harmonies]

Welcome back bro! Where you been?
Porn?? I don't care to see you, but I am open to any female counterparts!!

Jake

[mantid1]

Someone mentioned earlier that any ground fighting in mantis would have been adopted from another source.....I would have to agree. But, being that mantis was not the first system developed by the first cave man.....most of the techniques in mantis would have to be "borrowed" from another style.

I doubt that BJJ was developed by the first cave man....so most of that had to be "borrowed" from somewhere.....same goes for Judo.

As for CMA not having its roots in the military.......I would have to think that if they spend so much time training with spears....kwan do....swords...that they would have had to spend some time on some type of hand to hand combat. I doubt they spent much time training on the ground.....wouldnt make any more sense then than it does now to train alot for ground fighting....in a combat situation that is.

I am surprised this is confusing to most.

[shirkers1]

I was just passing through, I stop in both forums here and there to check in on you guys but never post. Training to be a stalker... Or I was off my meds and decided to post.. lol Most of you know why I stopped posting. Too much drama


back to point, historically we all know that there is NO ground fighting in NPM. There is like others said fighting from the ground but nothing like what we know ground fighting to be in the modern area of combat. Nothing about engaging an opponent on the ground and staying there. Plenty of tactics to get you to the ground but that's where it ends. Which is why many have crossed trained with other combat arts to pick up those skills to deal with the "modern" combat artist.