do you ever...

[Lucas]

practice any of your shaolin material like its taiji?

after i started chen taiji, and i realized the similarities between it and my shaolin material, i started to make the comparisons, and break down my shaolin material with a different eye.

now when I am practicing my 2 shaolin sets, i will always throw in a round or two that is more akin to chen taiji. slower movement with more on an extreme emphasis on structure and alignment and fajing.

some where around here there was a thread(still is im sure) pointing out the connections between the shaolin material i practice and chen taiji.

i think it was RD or Sal, probably a combination of both that laid out the historics of the connection.

of course I will still do my practices with emphasis on speed, precision and raw physical power. but i find that now i 'know' my 2 sets in a different manner after breaking them apart like this for about a year'ish

oh ya, the only sets i practice now are xiaohongquan, and dahongquan. i sometimes will do the chen (about as often as i do my other hand sets and weapon sets.) that i learned, but over all i feel that i dont need it because many of the techniques exist in the shaolin.

my martial goal: to continue to work my shaolin material until i die. also ill be beginning judo in a month, then i plan to work some form of jiujitsu along side the judo as a compliment. both complimenting my boxing.

i spend a lot of time with my heavy bag. very much so more than i do with forms. but i have not had a good sparring session in a bit. once I get my judo and jj on for a bit im hoping to remedy that by finding a MMA gym to let me come spar on a friendly basis if i can. mainly so that i can pressure test outside of the dojo ill be in.

where ever i learn jj may end up being a mma gym with bjj, not sure yet, so that might solve that aspect. the thing is i am wanting to hang on to my cma basics, ie; punches and kicks, and to utilize this for my boxing.

im not out to be any champion, but i do really enjoy training traditional arts. the judo school ill be joining is in a traditional format as well. im hoping to find either some traditional jjj, or if i can gjj.

i know this post went OT from my original posting purpose...but oh well.

ive always thought of shaolin as being a breeding ground for MMA, based on older generational standards of course, so it seems fitting for me to introduce my shaolin to the modern world of MMA. it only seems like the next step in evolution that my kungfu wants to go in.

[LFJ]

you mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dFKKw9V5zc)?

yes, the connection is quite direct as the guys explored.

[Lucas]

you mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dFKKw9V5zc)?

yes, the connection is quite direct as the guys explored.

i cannot watch this till I get home. but i will later tonight.

[Lucas]

you mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dFKKw9V5zc)?

yes, the connection is quite direct as the guys explored.

Yes, like this.

Thanks for the link. his set is almost exactly like mine. Just a few nuances.

[LFJ]

but have you seen the "low frame" (http://www.56.com/u47/v_MjAzNDg2Mjg.html), di(gong)jia xiaohongquan?

thats tough to do. there's a video of master dejian squatting under a table and practicing this.

[bawang]

i think it is nice, but xiaohongquan doesnt have soft techniques, no purpose to do it soft, the higher internal shaolin boxing is something they probably wont teach lol

interesting thing is, i do my tai ji like xiao hong quan :o its like the other way around lol

[LFJ]

i think it is nice, but xiaohongquan doesnt have soft techniques, no purpose to do it soft

what do you mean by soft techniques?

[bawang]

hi i mean redirecting and borrowing force technique

i think changhu xingyimen and rou quan are the internal soft shaolin styles

[Lucas]

what about the throws? they always seemed to me to be a redirection of your opponents force to me. i always viewed the best executed throws to be so because of borrowing your enemies energy/direction.

[bawang]

i guess that would be cool
i think doing it soft would look pretty cool, but doing it super slow like taiji doesnt rally have a point

[LFJ]

i think it would have the same point as practicing taijiquan slowly. obviously you dont use it slowly in application either. slow movements have neigong benefit. xiaohongquan has plenty of that if taught properly.

[DeHui702]

Well..doing a form slowly that is supposed to be done with speed and power is a sure way to get my Shifu's attention and told to perform the form at full speed in front of everyone. A lot of it is if he sees us doing something slow like that, he assumes we're lost or have questions about the correct way to do it. Otherwise what would the reason be to do Xiaohong quan slow?

He doesn't seem to mind if we're just 'thinking' through a form once a twice, but when we're actually practicing, he wants it done correctly with speed and power as that's the only way to get better at the form.

We have a pretty vast amount of internal techniques intended to be slowly practiced so if we're in the mood to do that, he'd probably rather see us practice that. I don't even have to ask to know that is the case.

[LFJ]

none of master shi dejian's sets are done fast. they are done slowly in coordination with the breath. thats including xiaohongquan, tongbiquan, etc..

there is not one way to do the sets, and thinking they are only proper if done fast and externally is to not fully understand their energy.

[bawang]

while i respect deeply shaolin monks xiaohongquan is a external military style. i think doing it slow doesnt benefit you. if you get a sort of spiritual feeling when you do it slow nothing wrong with that though


i think it would have the same point as practicing taijiquan slowly. obviously you dont use it slowly in application either. slow movements have neigong benefit. xiaohongquan has plenty of that if taught properly.

while good for slowing down and for better learning application, and warm down when you are tired, there is no point to do taijiquan slowly. i do it fast

[DeHui702]

none of master shi dejian's sets are done fast. they are done slowly in coordination with the breath. thats including xiaohongquan, tongbiquan, etc..

there is not one way to do the sets, and thinking they are only proper if done fast and externally is to not fully understand their energy.

That is for definite sure. If there is one thing Songshan Shaolin students learn is there are more than one way to do forms...stick with what your master teaches you. I've never met your Shifu DeJian. Do you travel to his temple to train?

I don't think anyone would suggest that there isn't multiple ways one *can* do a form and there may be some merit to practicing a fist set in a taiji manner. Main thing I was saying is that my Shifu wants me to do the form the way he taught me. If there is a reason for him to teach me another method of doing Hong boxing, he'll let me know. I wouldn't go outside of what he teaches unless there was a specific reason. I see no benefit to doing Xiaohong quan slow. By the count, sure. Broken into sections, sure. Straight through, sure. As a moving meditation..only if my shifu teaches that. Otherwise I have plenty of other things to work on including Taiji and Qigong forms.

There's so much Taiji to practice..even the most basic ones.

[Lucas]

This method is somewhat of a newer thing for me, in regards to my xiaohongquan. Been trying this for the past year. So not that long.

When I was being taught my taiji form. There were always two ways I was taught to do the form. One way is like the old man. Slow, soft, very relaxed, no tension. The other way is through mental visualization. fajing/power, resistance, and endurance emphasized in the later format.

For instance. The opening of the taiji form where you raise your arms.
When practicing with the visualization, you are to move and activate your muscle groups as though you are lifting a bucket of sand with each arm, or perhaps children. simply raising the arms is no good. Promoting the correct activation of the muscle groups, as well as muscular endurance. Doing movements slowly like this while all the while truly getting every muscle in the chain to work to the correct effect is a training procedure to help promote this as muscle memory, as well as promoting stronger muscular endurance, since each muscle group is being activated through motion for a longer period of time. every single movement is like this. often times you use a partner to apply resistance to find the muscles taht can be activated that you may have not been using. harder hits. more power, etc.

this is of course one small aspect of why this is done this way.

When i practice my xiaohongquan (i have not started to do my dahongquan slowly) i practice it this way. As seen in the first video that LFJ posted.

Of course I do this 2 times maybe 3 to warm up. not for cool down.

Xiaohongquan on average takes 30 seconds to perform. If i spend 1-2 hours working my form a couple days a week. what is 2-3 times performing in this manner going to do other than benefit me? More attention can be placed on presice movement structure, alignment...etc.

Im not telling anyone they should do this. this is just something that I do. Mainly I was curious to see if others do this. Apparently some of the monks do. I was unsure if anyone else did this.

I spend far less time doing this slowly than doing this fast. I spend far less time doing the form than working the techniques themselves, i spend even less time doing that then i do working against resistance and on my heavy bag.

I am in no way a form collector. I stopped doing all of my other many forms on a regular basis, and only perform them on scheduled review periods so that i can later offer these to others of they wish. IF i decide to ever teach anyone.

So as these 2 forms are the only ones I maintain and work to improve on a very regular basis. I strip them down and try to squeeze everything out of them taht i can. from every angle i can think of.

this of course, is just me with my personal martial art. and of course ive been practicing these sets for years, so it helps to 'spice it up' a bit. keeps it even more interesting.

[LFJ]

this isnt the same songshan shaolin xiaohongquan, and not the same idea, but kinda fits here...

zhou baofu explains in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4FT_ETpcOA&feature=related) about the three steps learning forms; study, flow, and practice.

he says "flowing" the form 1,000 times and then only really practicing it once is better than just doing it hard and fast all the time.

from experience, i agree with what he says. i "flow" my forms quite often, sometimes only in my head, and later when i go to actually practice it, it comes out better.

[Lucas]

i like the analogy with the bow and the arrow.

Jesse Tsao Sifu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_mwm5tgCY&feature=PlayList&p=09DCAB7674B20A3C&playnext=1&index=5) shows this very well in this chen fajing video.

[DeHui702]

Ok, so there's a random VCD that explains thinking about a form before doing it. Obviously 1000 times isn't literal, just a seed to say think about the form a lot. Doesn't really seem to have anything to do with practicing a military form as though it were Taiji. I honestly thought you were going to discuss more about what your Shifu Dejian taught you.

Lucas, there is no reason on earth to visualize children hanging from your arms when you're doing Taiji. Although that is very funny:). Even the simplest Taiji form like the Standardized 24 activates 95% of the body's muscle groups. If you feel the need for resistance you can do pushups, situps, pullups, etc. There is no resistance in Taiji.

Like I said, I don't know that practicing in these ways is harmful or beneficial and if some Sifu somewhere told you to practice like this, that's great. Always listen to your Sifu. Just make sure you are honest with yourself.

[Lucas]

This is the way I was taught by gregory fong sifu. though this is taiji i-chuan fusion. its like touching the hot stove.

i did not study under him for a very long time, but what i learned was quite valuable. He surely did improve my power.

[LFJ]

Ok, so there's a random VCD that explains thinking about a form before doing it. Obviously 1000 times isn't literal, just a seed to say think about the form a lot. Doesn't really seem to have anything to do with practicing a military form as though it were Taiji. I honestly thought you were going to discuss more about what your Shifu Dejian taught you.

it was posted as something to considered. another take on forms practice. but he was indeed suggesting that "flowing" the form (not just thinking about it) more often is the key to performing it well, rather than only practicing it full, as that would only exhaust you before long. in my experience, flowing the form is very important in being able to perform it well, by paying attention to detail. so i agree with him

as for master dejian, he is not my shifu and hasnt taught me anything personally. what i said about him was again to present another take on forms practice. in fact, its not really another take, its a whole different lineage that has been very well protected from dilution. the whole curriculum taught by him is very "internal". its never practiced fast. the movements are in coordination with the breath, and he says yelling during the form causes one to waste qi.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Doing a form slow is for the body mechanics training. In shaolin they go fast and hard at the beginning to build the body. Then as one advnaces the forms are slowed down and you really work every nuance of the body mechanics. It becomes very internal at that point.

In Taiji they go fast and hard later, preferring to get every nuance of the mechanics mastered first. It's probably the older way to do this stuff.

When you realize that the forms were taught last, and all the hard core conditioning was originally done through the drills and equipment training (IE Stone locks, bags, water buckets etc...) it make sense that going slow was the original way to do them. They were tools for the advanced students to master the refined details, not train them up from the beginning. Actually, if you go even further back, you find that they were taught only to the new masters as a *Diploma* of sorts and not used in training at all.

Today forms are often used as beginners training, so they are externalified for that purpose. That is why you see so much of the "Fast and Hard" ways of doing the forms, and so little of the more advanced Taiji like ways.

[Royal Dragon]

Doing a form slow is for the body mechanics training. In shaolin they go fast and hard at the beginning to build the body. Then as one advnaces the forms are slowed down and you really work every nuance of the body mechanics. It becomes very internal at that point.

In Taiji they go fast and hard later, preferring to get every nuance of the mechanics mastered first. It's probably the older way to do this stuff.

When you realize that the forms were taught last, and all the hard core conditioning was originally done through the drills and equipment training (IE Stone locks, bags, water buckets etc...) it make sense that going slow was the original way to do them. They were tools for the advanced students to master the refined details, not train them up from the beginning. Actually, if you go even further back, you find that they were taught only to the new masters as a *Diploma* of sorts and not used in training at all.

Today forms are often used as beginners training, so they are externalified for that purpose. That is why you see so much of the "Fast and Hard" ways of doing the forms, and so little of the more advanced Taiji like ways.

Reply]
Arghhh!! I forgot to log in as me!!

[DeHui702]

Shi DeJian would definitely be at a level of respectibility to make that determination for his students. I'm very curious to see more of him, because to my knowledge he is still at Shaolin Temple. The main curriculum there, particularly the secular disciples involves some of the hardest and most powerful applications, soft internalizations, and yelling galore. If what you are saying is true to what he teaches, Shi Dejian's curriculum is unique at Shaolin and in many ways opposite.

[DeHui702]

We start applying internal techniques in the second beginners form in Shaolin. By the time you're doing Lohan boxing the interaction between internal and external is clear.

I'm not sure where you're getting the externalized remark from. If Shifu shortens a long form like Xiaohongquan, then all of the elements of Xiaohongquan are still there. If he shortens Lohanquan then all of the elements are there, including the internal. I'm sure you're basing the theory of externalization on on something you've experienced, but as far as drastic alterations of forms to exclude any intended internal content..that's pretty bizarre and questionable stuff.

Lucas, definitely keep practicing if that's the way your Sifu taught you. Since you're enjoying internal and external methods, you should pick up a Damo Jian vcd and start doing that sword form. You'd pick it up pretty fast since your head seems to be in the right place.

[LFJ]

Shi DeJian would definitely be at a level of respectibility to make that determination for his students. I'm very curious to see more of him, because to my knowledge he is still at Shaolin Temple.

as far as i know he stays at another small temple in the mountains with his disciples and students. he's not actually living in shaolin temple, and hasnt been for a while.


The main curriculum there, particularly the secular disciples involves some of the hardest and most powerful applications, soft internalizations, and yelling galore. If what you are saying is true to what he teaches, Shi Dejian's curriculum is unique at Shaolin and in many ways opposite.

its unique because he is part of a lineage the others are not part of- from master wu gulun who was a former monk in shaolin in of the 1800's.

however, the hard, external, yelling stuff is mostly from kids who train at schools around shaolin.

most of the monks in shaolin temple under abbot yongxin have an internal basis and do more grunting that screaming, which is like master dejian. they have a different lineage, that moves faster. but the internal elements are still there.