OT: does obama bring change?

[uki]

most everyone believes obama is here to change america, end global warming, and bring peace and prosperity to the whole world!!! lets see for ourselves and make our own minds up... some examples of the change we can believe in. :)

torture flights... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Obama_set_to_allow_Bush-era_torture_flights/articleshow/4067338.cms

http://obamabarack.blogspot.com/2009/02/obama-to-allow-torture-flights.html

civilian labor program... http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf

an added twist... http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-645

yet wait... http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B62C8724D-AE8A-4B5C-94C7-70171315C0A0%7D&dateid=38741.5136277662-858254656 aren't these the same folks that own a private prison in texas?? http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/01/texas.prison.riot/ and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/01/west-texas-prison-riot-co_n_162932.html and yet it is not a co-incidence that obama and cheney are related... http://www.nypost.com/seven/10172007/news/regionalnews/dissing_cousins__obama__cheney.htm and http://www.simplydumb.com/2007/09/12/obama-and-bush-related/

now if all that isn't enough to ponder... perhaps it's the change of the declaration of independence? http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2009/01/61522608/1 and http://www.dailypaul.com/node/79552 now that would be any lawyers headache...

obama speaks out against wall street greed, but what about... http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/02/03/obama_talks_tough_with_wall_st_but_what_about_his_ cabinet/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed7 got hypocrisy?

and what about the change in his cabinet? is it really change or is it simply recycling? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/06/politics/main4578937.shtml alot of familiar faces i tell ya!!!

so there is a short snippet of what all this change we are to believe in.

[David Jamieson]

are you saying he should reverse 8 years in 2 weeks?

also, rendition flights don't always mete out as "torture".

Often it is a way of superseding the non-existence of extradition treaties in the case of known and wanted criminals.

do you have a problem with that? I only have a problem with it if severe errors are made, otherwise, round em up and who cares what happens to em.

the harder it is for criminals to operate the better.

also, much of that is op-ed stuff, policies that haven't been dealt with yet etc etc.

I think your expectations of the man are a bit high maybe?

[GLW]

Now, I do not know where everything Obama is going to do will end up...but at least get your stories and timeline straight....and understand that a lot of things in the ship of state continue on until someone explicitly stops it...

for example, a KBR contract awarded 01/24/2009...and WHEN did Obama take office....and the news of the award was a SATURDAY...that is when many in DC slip things by so it won't make the news.... but halting a contract on day 3 of his term may not be realistic.

The rendition flights...too soon to tell..but the work details..the document is dated 2005.

The prisons...well, unless it is a FEDERAL prison, there is not much a president can do about it...the real power lies with the Judicial branch to say that such things are not allowed.

Granted, there are a lot of things no one cares for now...but the first thing about finding yourself in a hole is to stop digging. Seems that many of the things done in the last 10 days have been aimed at doing that...and also aimed at coming up with a plan for something that previous actions have either caused or had no positive impact upon.

The complaint about retreads...well, if you go with pristine people, you get no baggage...AND NO EXPERIENCE in how to navigate DC and government.

The issue that is amazing is just how many people have major tax problems. I can be pretty sure that this issue is on BOTH sides of the aisle - Democrat and Republican.

Now I can see a big part of it being greedy and not wanting to pay any more in taxes than they have to....and dragging it out forever.

But I can also see a tax code that is so complicated that it takes a full vetting by tons of journalists and investigators to uncover things.

Sounds like a round of ethics an honesty for everyone accompanied by a simplification of the tax code would be in order...but what is NOT going to happen....

[uki]

and lets have it for some more change thats in the wind...

obama wants less secrey... http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/2009/01/a_new_era.html yet what about obamas new clinton(remember change folks) era attorney general? http://www.nowpublic.com/world/internet-censorship-and-ag-eric-holder-30 and http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10110922-38.html

interesting to say the least... does anyone else have some change they know of?

[David Jamieson]

seriously, you live in America. it runs on a huge bureaucracy and has a huge population.

are your really so naive as to expect large sweeping changes into happy smurf land in 2 weeks?

really?

you got more hope than Obama! :p

[BoulderDawg]

Of course Obama doesn't bring "Change"....However what he does bring is a vast improvement over the previous admin.

Daschle is proof that Obama does not strive for true change but instead is looking to regain some of the gains we made during the Clinton years. Daschle did the right thing by stepping down. Personally I have no idea if his tax problems was a mistake or not.....don't care. My concern is that if it was a mistake it was a big one and one wonders about his compentancy.

[Mas Judt]

Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul.

[Shaolinlueb]

obama won't get much done with the way the economy is going. i am betting he will be 1 term president.

[Kymus]

I think he's a phoney liberal, just like Bush was a phoney conservative.

Let's see..

he's filled his cabinet with war hawks and "bio-tech yes men".
Cites WMD bull**** over Iran
Talks tough with Russia as if they're bullies when it's already been established that Georgia was the agressor
Thinks the Patriot Act gives law enforcement "the tools they need"
Refuses to impeach Bush & Co. (and Biden predictably flip flopped on the issue himself. What a difference pre (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Biden_would_prosecute_Bush_officials_if_0904.html) and post (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/21/biden-prosecuting-torture/) election makes)
Won't keep his word on Iraq
Favors war with Afghanistan and Pakistan
Already has blood on his hands in Pakistan (http://www.stumbleupon.com/click_redir.php?t=498862c70c4bc&src=blog&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gnn.tv%2Fheadlines%2F19463%2FOb ama_Airstrikes_Kill_22_in_Pakistan)
Gonna "spend us out of debt" (lol (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo162.html))
Appointed Hillary Clinton to Secretary of State... of all people..
HUGE spender favoring bailouts
Pals around with Zbigniew Brzezinski


That's not change, that's bull$hit.

Ray LaHood: The Obama Appointment You Should Be Really Worried About (http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_16524.cfm)

Obama v. the National Intelligence Estimate on Iran by Glenn Greenwald (http://www.lewrockwell.com/greenwald/greenwald18.html)

Obama Announces "Grand Bargain" of Sacrifice from Americans to Save... (http://www.naturalnews.com/News_000654_grand_bargain_national_debt_Obama.html )

ei: Obama's deadly silence (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10097.shtml)

Andrew Kimbrell: Obamas Choice of Vilsack: AgriBusiness as Usual at. USDA? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-kimbrell/obamas-choice-of-vilsack_b_153213.html)

The Economy Needs a Shot in the Arm (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9860)

Bush and Obama Opt for Corporatism over Freewheeling Capitalist Economy. (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9853)

America Does Not Need More Czars (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9800)

Obama, the military and the threat of dictatorship (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/dec2008/pers-d23.shtml)

Obama's atomic umbrella: U.S. nuclear strike if Iran nukes Israel (http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1045687.html)

ObamaWorks: A 'Compelling' Investment (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/brown-c5.html)

Campaign Promises on Ending the War in Iraq Now Muted by Reality (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/05-0)

Obama Doesn't Plan to End the Iraq Occupation (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/05-1)

Obama's Political Pork-Barrel Infrastructure (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo162.html)

Beware of Obamas Groundhog Day by John Pilger (http://www.lewrockwell.com/pilger/pilger72.html)

Obamas War Cabinet (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11296)

The Real Rivalry In the Team: The Cabinet vs. The Campaign Promises... (http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008124902/real-rivalry-team-cabinet-vs-campaign-promises)

Will Obama Stay the Course? (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081202_will_obama_stay_the_course/)

Barack Obama's kettle of hawks (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/dec/01/barack-obama-foreign-policy)

Is Iran Policy Still Up for Grabs? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/engelhardt/engelhardt364.html)

Obamas Team Includes Dangerous Biotech "Yes Men" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-smith/obamas-team-includes-dang_b_147188.html)

Obama's Treasury Pick Has All the Wrong Ideas (http://www.alternet.org/story/108539/)

President Obama's Promises (http://www.allamericanblogger.com/president-obamas-promises/)

Obamas Foreign Policy: The Case for Pessimism (http://www.antiwar.com/justin?articleid=13807)

When Will Obama Give Up the Bin Laden Ghost Hunt? (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1859354,00.html)

Mario A. Murillo: Holder and Chiquita (http://www.counterpunch.org/murillo11192008.html)

Democracy Now! | Agents of Change or Hawks, Clintonites and... (http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/20/agents_of_change_or_hawks_clintonites)

Obama's Long Arm/Short Arm Stiff Of The Netroots (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/11/18/obamas-long-armshort-arm-stiff-of-the-netroots/)

What the Clinton Appointment Means (http://www.antiwar.com/justin?articleid=13785)

The Wolff in the USDA Henhouse: Obama Team Apparently Considering Another Monsanto Booster for Appointment (http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_15624.cfm)

Six Reasons Why Obama Appointing Monsanto's Buddy, Former Iowa Iowa Governor Vilsack, for USDA Head Would be a Terrible Idea (http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_15573.cfm)

Cold War Hawks Nesting With Obama (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081111_cold_war_hawks_nesting_with_obama/)

Try These on Your CIA Briefer, Mr. President-Elect (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/11/08)

Obama - Whats In Store? (http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-2193-0-5-5--.html)

Forget the Honeymoon (http://www.antiwar.com/justin?articleid=13728)

Obama Upstages Guy Fawkes (http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory171.html)

Now That Obama Has Won . . . There is No Excuse (http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/11/now-that-obama-has-won-there-is-no.html)

Making Excuses for Obama (http://www.antiwar.com/justin?articleid=13698)

Why We Are Still in Iraq? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/nolan-m7.html)

Curb Your Enthusiasm for Obama (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080831_curb_your_enthusiasm_for_obama/)

Nicole Colson: Obama and Big Corn (http://www.counterpunch.org/colson08232008.html)

Big Donors Are a Major Force in Obama Campaign (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/politics/06bundlers.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

Obama on the Brink (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080722_obama_on_the_brink/)

Obama, the prince of bait-and-switch (http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2008/07/pilger-obama-afghanistan-news)

[Baqualin]

Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul.

I second that one:D
BQ

[1bad65]

The issue that is amazing is just how many people have major tax problems. I can be pretty sure that this issue is on BOTH sides of the aisle - Democrat and Republican.

Now I can see a big part of it being greedy and not wanting to pay any more in taxes than they have to....and dragging it out forever.

But I can also see a tax code that is so complicated that it takes a full vetting by tons of journalists and investigators to uncover things.

Sounds like a round of ethics an honesty for everyone accompanied by a simplification of the tax code would be in order...but what is NOT going to happen....

I don't recall anyone in the Bush Cabinet having tax issues.

It's aggrivating to see the same elected officials calling for higher taxes, being the ones getting caught not paying theirs. I seem to recall Joe Biden saying that 'paying taxes is patriotic'. So according to the Vice President; Tom Daschle, Tim Geithner, and Charlie Rangel are unpatriotic.

As for simplifying it, I've not seen ANY Democrat call for a flat-tax or for simplifying the tax code. Lamar Alexander is for a flat tax and Alan Keyes is for abolishing the income tax, and they are both Republicans.

[1bad65]

are you saying he should reverse 8 years in 2 weeks?

Obama himself set the high expectations.

Of course within days of being elected he suddenly lowered the bar. :rolleyes:

Anyone want to bet that the national debt will be higher in 4 years than it was when Bush left office?

[Kymus]

Anyone want to bet that the national debt will be higher in 4 years than it was when Bush left office?

If Obama gets the blank check he's basically asking for, I am not sure as to how the debt won't be larger than Bush's.

Unless I'm seriously missing something... Obama wants to expand the size of the government (which = more $$), 8 Billion was it for the stimulus package?, still in Iraq for a while, "maybe Iran" (and I have no idea what's going on in Iran anyway. I know we started to go in there in the last 6 months but the media has been really silent about anything else), wants increased efforts in Afghanistan, we're already bombing Pakistan (not sure what the plan is there)...

Even if by some sort of amazing luck the stimulus package and tax cuts do exactly what Obama says they'll do, we're still supporting an over-bloated government (with more bloat on the way), giving out god knows how much in foreign aide, supporting possibly 4 wars; definitely 2, and to top it all off, we're borrowing a metric ton of money at the beginning of it all. Oh yeah, don't forget carbon taxing, either...

[1bad65]

If Obama gets the blank check he's basically asking for, I am not sure as to how the debt won't be larger than Bush's.

Unless I'm seriously missing something... Obama wants to expand the size of the government (which = more $$), 8 Billion was it for the stimulus package?,...

Exactly.

Remember, some people saw this coming BEFORE the election. ;)

[1bad65]

...8 Billion was it for the stimulus package?,...

Are these things going to 'stimulate' the economy and create jobs?

$2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

I think my favorite is the tax break for Hollywood movie producers. That Obama is really standing up for the 'little guy'. :rolleyes:

Where is that tax cut 95% of us were promised? :confused:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/index.html

[Reality_Check]

I don't recall anyone in the Bush Cabinet having tax issues.

Bernie Kerik & Linda Chavez

[1bad65]

Bernie Kerik & Linda Chavez

They both had issues concerning nannies. Neither owed ANY back taxes.

Also, Kerik never served in the Bush Cabinet.

Try again.

[Kymus]

Are these things going to 'stimulate' the economy and create jobs?

No, but, I knew better than to expect anything from him or McCain. Continually we are presented with a lump of $hit and a lump of crap and sold the idea that they're critically different :rolleyes:


$2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

I wonder what happened to his ******* for ethanol. IMO, if you're gonna invest in alternative energy, make it "high tech" solar, wind, or water.


• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.


Yep, that'll really help the economy out :rolleyes:


• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

.....................how much do those things cost?


• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

I'm almost split on this.......... almost. Having some friends in the military, I can sympathize with the need for "new stuff" (for lack of a much better word), but considering the proposed purpose of the "stimulus" package... that's not necessary. I think a better place for that would be a military spending bill.


• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

Oh to he|| with that! Less than 1% of the cases they work on are terrorism related. It's an unnecessary organization and even if it were around prior to 9/11, it wouldn't have prevented it any. Further, I don't see how that will exactly help the economy...


• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

:rolleyes:


• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

Convert the current engines to run on bio-diesel. Next!


• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

That's fine and dandy, but uh, it's not helping to "stimulate" the economy and it's not something that should be considered until we are out of the current financial disaster.


• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

How about we get some more public trash cans here in NYC? I'm tired of being the only person that doesn't litter..


• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

How about cleaning up the rust in my water?


• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

not necessary at the moment


• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

waste


• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

:confused::


• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

This isn't "stimulating" the economy any.... even if it is necessary


• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

Why?


• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

Nope.


• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

Nope.


• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

:confused::confused:


• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

That's great and all but.... it's not stimulating anything.


• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

Why?


• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

See above



• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

Obama's idea thus far of "energy efficiency" so far (clean coal, ethanol) is lacking. I'm not buying it. Further, no "stimulus"


• $850 million for Amtrak.

For arguments sake, since most of this is waste, I'll just go along with it.


• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

My apt building was built in 1927. The landlord will supply me with lead-paint testing should I choose to have a kid here. Not great, but it'll work for now...


• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

waste


• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

"stimulus"


• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

Why?


• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

WOW! It's a job!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:
But........... why just summer jobs??


• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

:rolleyes:


• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

:rolleyes:


• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

:rolleyes:


• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

What about the mandatory community service Obama wants for college kids?

[Mas Judt]

You know at 800 billion, the government could just cut us all a check for $100,000 and be done with it. THAT would stimulate the economy. Until the 'bill' came due at least :eek:

[BoulderDawg]

I think the important thing to remember here is in that long laundry list of projects (Pulled off of someone's Neo blog) I would bet, although I don't have the inclination to actually add it up, that all those programs adds up to less than the cost of 2 months in Iraq. If Obama can get us the hell out there will be plenty for money for those programs.

Notice that for Neos dumping money into the Iraq black hole is okay but funding summer jobs for kids is not......

[David Jamieson]

If you only have one wing, you fly in circles. lol

[GLW]

And I don't recall the media or anyone else REALLY vetting or examining the bona fides of Bush Appointees...except obvious birds nests on the ground like Harriet Meirs.

They even believed Roberts and Alito... They did NOT raise a fuss when Bush and Cheney refused to testify under oath and separately...

But I would say that a good chunk of both sides of the aisle have undisclosed tax issues...and then there may be the issues of hiring undocumented workers for things like home and child care.... that one has also caught both sides....and both issues are simply reflections of what a significant part of the US population that makes above a certain amount of money do.

I have friends that are easily in the $200+ K a year income level. Generally, they pay a person to do their taxes and would probably NOT come out unscathed in the event of an audit...and they HAVE used undocumented workers for home care work.... not now...but in the past. and they are cleaner than many of the folks I know in that income bracket....

[BoulderDawg]

also, I'm really looking forward to went they once again start talking about welfare mothers driving Cadillacs!:D

[BoulderDawg]

In any case Bad's argument is that everyone in the Bush admin is fine God fearing people while the people in Obama's admin are cheats and criminals.....

I saw the crappy job those decent "God fearing people" did........Give me the criminals and cheats any day of the week.

[Kymus]

You know at 800 billion, the government could just cut us all a check for $100,000 and be done with it. THAT would stimulate the economy. Until the 'bill' came due at least :eek:

No one is supposed to know about the bill; just play along and let everyone think that there are no consequences to creating money out of thin air.

[Kymus]

I think the important thing to remember here is in that long laundry list of projects (Pulled off of someone's Neo blog) I would bet, although I don't have the inclination to actually add it up, that all those programs adds up to less than the cost of 2 months in Iraq. If Obama can get us the hell out there will be plenty for money for those programs.

Notice that for Neos dumping money into the Iraq black hole is okay but funding summer jobs for kids is not......

Behold the stupidity of partisan party politics!

Conservatives were mostly asleep at the wheel when Bush was ruining us, and I am already seeing plenty of Liberals doing the same pathetic thing.

You're right, if we weren't funding multiple unnecessary wars, things would be a lot different economy-wise. As it stands, Obama wants this absurd laundry list and multiple wars. I'm afraid that Obama is gonna make Bush look like a "fiscal conservative" :(

Meet the new boss.... same as the old.

[BoulderDawg]

No one is supposed to know about the bill; just play along and let everyone think that there are no consequences to creating money out of thin air.

Well according to Bad, Obama has the "Robin Hood" plan. He's suppose to redistribute the wealth from the rich to the poor...

The only problem is that I've asked and asked and I still haven't when told when and where I can pick up my check.

[Kymus]

Well according to Bad, Obama has the "Robin Hood" plan. He's suppose to redistribute the wealth from the rich to the poor...

The only problem is that I've asked and asked and I still haven't when told when and where I can pick up my check.

:rolleyes: Obama, like McCain, like Bush, like Clinton, like.......... says one thing, and does another.

Your check just got "accidentally" mailed to some big business or government agency methinks. Really, the Gov has a contest to see who can nail us in the rear the best... the winner gets all the checks ;)

[1bad65]

I wonder what happened to his ******* for ethanol. IMO, if you're gonna invest in alternative energy, make it "high tech" solar, wind, or water.

Notice what state that money is going to...


What about the mandatory community service Obama wants for college kids?

What exactly is the difference between mandatory community service and slavery?

[1bad65]

I have friends that are easily in the $200+ K a year income level. Generally, they pay a person to do their taxes and would probably NOT come out unscathed in the event of an audit....

But this Geithner crook is running the IRS!

Obama does get points for audacity.

[1bad65]

Behold the stupidity of partisan party politics!

Just put that space cadet on ignore and save yourself the time you'll waste trying to debate rationally with him.

Either he is too stupid to see I got those figures from CNN, or he is a loon who believes CNN is a 'Neo Blog'. No matter how you slice it, the guy is a whack job.

[1bad65]

:rolleyes: Obama, like McCain, like Bush, like Clinton, like.......... says one thing, and does another.

Reagan was the last one who did exactly what he campaigned on.

All those people who bought into that 'change' garbage Obama promised sure have alot of egg to clean off of their faces.

Notice how NONE of his supporters are willing to bet that the national debt won't be higher in 4 years than it was on Jan 19th, 2009.

[Kymus]

What exactly is the difference between mandatory community service and slavery?

It's a softer, gentler slavery :cool:

[David Jamieson]

It's a softer, gentler slavery :cool:

like the stop loss solution for screwing guys over at the ends of their tours?
what kind of slavery is that?

[Kymus]

All those people who bought into that 'change' garbage Obama promised sure have alot of egg to clean off of their faces.

Oh boy.. ok, there's a few different ways to look at this.

1) Lesser of two evils.

Personally, that's not good enough for me, but most of my friends were "OMGz we can't let McCain and Palin fsck things up! Obama's gotta be better". I explained to them my POV, that it's Jack Johnson vs John Jackson (http://www.lewrockwell.com/kramer/kramer21.html) but of course they didn't want to listen. Obama has a load of charisma and he's not Bush; that's all that matters to them. What they don't realize is that it's that same frame of mind that brought us Bush in 2000: He wasn't Al Gore. Obama may turn out to be marginally better than McCain, and McCain may have turned out marginally better than Obama, but I don't find that acceptable enough to support someone.

2) Lack of staying informed

All the links I dropped earlier were just from what I've read in my daily news RSS feeds (LewRockwell, TruthDig, GNN, Alternet, and maybe 1 or 2 other alternative news sites) and regular websurfing since July of last year. I can only imagine the plethora of information that would have been available had I actually been intentionally digging for dirt. Further, I'd like to point out that a lot of those sites were liberal sites (AntiWar, CommonDreams, TruthDig, HuffingtonPost, etc.) and I find it very telling that these sites even blasted Obama for being a phoney. All this spelled out very clearly the bulleted points I made earlier: no change.


Notice how NONE of his supporters are willing to bet that the national debt won't be higher in 4 years than it was on Jan 19th, 2009.

I still have no clue in hell as to how he plans on not bringing us into more debt within the next 4 years based on the issues I cited.... I'm willing to listen if someone has an idea, but at the present.. yeah, nothin.

[Kymus]

like the stop loss solution for screwing guys over at the ends of their tours?
what kind of slavery is that?

David, I am not entirely sure what you're talking about (could you explain more?) and I'm also not sure what that has to do with anything that I've talked about...

[Kymus]

Either he is too stupid to see I got those figures from CNN, or he is a loon who believes CNN is a 'Neo Blog'. No matter how you slice it, the guy is a whack job.

I'd be a little more questioning if perhaps that was from some neo-con blog for talking points, but it seems to me that the article just says "this is what the Republicans are *****ing about..." and I already commented on what I think of each of those.

It can be argued that many of those are necessary, but even if that's true, they don't belong in a stimulus package that's supposed to help create jobs. I also think that considering our current financial situation, all these "necessities" should be put on hold until it can be afforded.

[David Jamieson]

David, I am not entirely sure what you're talking about (could you explain more?) and I'm also not sure what that has to do with anything that I've talked about...

you guys are calling one thing slavery, but don't see government enforced extensions on enlistment as another form of the same thing?

Let me tell you, I have seen many a neo-con ditto head thread started here for who knows what reason. Maybe it's just all the handbag full of hate that is carried around in that way of thinking.

i'm surprised you don't know what stop loss is though.
read up, it got put back into play by bush as an executive order (which is bitter irony considering his slack ass record of service). It was brought into play following the vietnam war, which has many parallels to the iraq invasion, but that's here nor there, this page will explain it as far as what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-loss_policy

or, if you want to criticize wikipedia, you can get it from a .gov policy site.

in the meantime, i sugesst you guys stop whining about the dude who has only been in office for a little over 2 weeks and at least give him his 100 days.

I'll bet you all that Obama does more good for america in his first 100 days than bush did in his entire 8 years. just an opinion.

the republican party has fallen to pieces thanks to the neo-cons and now it is a splintered group of bickering people running from magazine to website to blog to forum bleating out their distaste in their newly minted presidnet because there are still problems in the world. :rolleyes: pretty idiotic from where i stand.

meanwhile, obama is running a non-partisan white house and yet... well here you are going off on the guy.

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. " ~ Abe lincoln (a republican who also had a non-partisan cabinet).

suck it up, sit back and see what happens. you doomsayers are a little whack if ya ask me. :)

[David Jamieson]

also, kymus, i'd like to speak to these points you make up top:

Let's see..

* he's filled his cabinet with war hawks and "bio-tech yes men".
He has/is established/ing a cabinet of people who are not YES men to him.

* Cites WMD bull**** over Iran
Iran is actively pursuing nuclear technology. as a peaceful way of developing nuclear power, this is in principle fine, however, it must be monitored and Iran must play by the same rules as everyone else and be governed by the IAEA in these matters and not be unilateral in their use of nuclear technologies. iran is being problematic in this point

* Talks tough with Russia as if they're bullies when it's already been established that Georgia was the agressor
do you read the news? Russia is a bully and uses energy stoppage in the middle of winter to force the EU to pay higher prices for energy.

* Thinks the Patriot Act gives law enforcement "the tools they need"
portions of it do. how many cops do you know who have been stifled from doing their jobs or courts that have released known criminals because there are no legal measures to contain them? the patriot act will go, but i don't think it has effected too many innocent people at all. we had one or two cases here in canada where one guy was rendition flown to syria, he got 10 million $ in the end and is still on a crusade against it. it will sunset, but it has to have new laws put into play that will protect ports, airports and entry points into your country and mine. I can live with it until they come up with those laws.

* Refuses to impeach Bush & Co. (and Biden predictably flip flopped on the issue himself. What a difference pre and post election makes) why should he do what people tell him to do? he's the president and he'll take things under advisement and who knows, maybe you'll see Bush and Cheney up for war crimes yet!
* Won't keep his word on Iraq presumption on your part
* Favors war with Afghanistan and Pakistan dude, I am canadian, a classical liberal and I favour bringing order to those countries in order to get rid of the taliban and other terrorist organizations. Pakistan is doing a crappy job of taking care of them in their own territory, if they won't do it, the rest of the world will
* Already has blood on his hands in Pakistan a couple of drops comparable to what the former president did and going after the factions that exist in the tribal areas of pakistan is necessary from my point of view
* Gonna "spend us out of debt" (lol) like how bush did? if the government doesn't spend, you won't have a job and your country will collapse into a depression, how do you think that will feel? take the deficit and enjoy your dinner and the home you live in
* Appointed Hillary Clinton to Secretary of State... of all people.. Hillary is powerful, got 18 million votes from her supporters and carries a lot of voices of voting america with her into that position
* HUGE spender favoring bailouts uh, the bailouts were forged by the GOP, I wouldn't cast blame on his senatorial vote in that regard, even if he did vote against, it would have happened and again, enjoy your dinner and the home you live in for it
* Pals around with Zbigniew Brzezinski him and every other former president.

[Kymus]

you guys are calling one thing slavery, but don't see government enforced extensions on enlistment as another form of the same thing?

Maybe you can find for me where I've said that? Or where I've said I support any of the wars we're in??

David, just because I am against Obama doesn't mean that I'm a hard-right neocon blowhard. I'm also against..... McCain, Bush, and both Clintons as well :)


Let me tell you, I have seen many a neo-con ditto head thread started here for who knows what reason. Maybe it's just all the handbag full of hate that is carried around in that way of thinking.

This thread isn't a neocon knee-jerk thread. The OP stated the obvious: Obama isn't change. I concurred with that statement and added to the reasons why. Within my issues I raised as to why I don't like Obama, you'll notice that none of them say..


He's a terrorist
He's a muslim
He's a socialist
He's a commie
He's going to make us lose the war
He's cutting and running
He should stay in Iraq
He wasn't born in America
He's ultra-liberal


Or any of this chuckle-head tripe (http://www.mediachannel.org/wordpress/2009/01/26/the-right-wing-media-and-the-politics-of-vitriol/).

Instead, you'll see that I mentioned much more legitimate issues:

* he's filled his cabinet with war hawks and "bio-tech yes men".
* Cites WMD bull**** over Iran
* Talks tough with Russia as if they're bullies when it's already been established that Georgia was the agressor
* Thinks the Patriot Act gives law enforcement "the tools they need"
* Refuses to impeach Bush & Co. (and Biden predictably flip flopped on the issue himself. What a difference pre and post election makes)
* Won't keep his word on Iraq
* Favors war with Afghanistan and Pakistan
* Already has blood on his hands in Pakistan
* Gonna "spend us out of debt"
* Appointed Hillary Clinton to Secretary of State... of all people..
* HUGE spender favoring bailouts
* Pals around with Zbigniew Brzezinski

and somehow you came out of this thinking I'm some kind of conservative? :confused::confused:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-loss_policy

David, a close friend of mine is in Baghdad right now. I want to see him come home as soon as possible. I also do not support this. Please stop assuming that I am a conservative just because I don't like Obama for a litany of legitimate reasons.


or, if you want to criticize wikipedia, you can get it from a .gov policy site.

You'll find that I regularly involve myself with research because I think that being factual is a lot more important than feeling right. You won't find me whining about "bias" or credibility like some people do in order to protect their fragile ignorance of any number of issues.


in the meantime, i sugesst you guys stop whining about the dude who has only been in office for a little over 2 weeks and at least give him his 100 days.

I'm sorry, but I have already found a number of problems with Obama that are verifiable and very worthy of criticism. I criticized Bush before he was in office because I knew he was a war monger.... I was right. I think it's absurd for anyone to say that someone should be free of criticism for a period of time. Obama didn't magically ascend into the presidency from nowhere. You'll find that my criticisms of him are 99% based on what he's already done or has said he will do. The 1% is saved for my opinion that he's going to end the US in more debt in 4 years than what he inherited from Bush. If you can explain to me exactly how he is going to not do this while still supporting multiple wars and nearly a trillion (or over... my head is a little dizzy from all the figures that have been tossed around) on top of that of more debt... I've already said I'm willing to listen.


I'll bet you all that Obama does more good for america in his first 100 days than bush did in his entire 8 years. just an opinion.

That's really not that hard to do. That also doesn't make him "change". Obama will be Bush lite, and if he does everything he says he would like to do, he'll prove me right with ease.


the republican party has fallen to pieces thanks to the neo-cons and now it is a splintered group of bickering people running from magazine to website to blog to forum bleating out their distaste in their newly minted presidnet because there are still problems in the world. :rolleyes: pretty idiotic from where i stand.

David, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here and if I am, I apologize. But what does this have to do with me, my politics, or anything I've said? If you would bother to take a look at my criticisms instead of ignoring them as conservative anti-Obama tripe, you would notice that a good number of the sources I cited earlier are actually from left-wing websites. Ok, I'm sorry, there was ONE blog that was conservative and I only linked to that because it's attempting to keep track of Obama's campaign promises. Otherwise... dude, I don't listen to conservatives outside Ron Paul and I sure as sh!t don't read conservative blogs, news sites, or forums. The issues I have with Obama have absolutely nothing to do with what you've mentioned. While I dislike Obama, I don't dislike him for any of the idiotic reasons most conservatives dislike him for.



meanwhile, obama is running a non-partisan white house and yet... well here you are going off on the guy.

I really don't give a sh!t how non-partisan Obama's White House is. Likewise, I wouldn't care if he appointed all Democrats. What I do care about is the war hawks, pro-globalists, and lobbyists he's appointed. That bothers me a great deal, actually.


"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. " ~ Abe lincoln (a republican who also had a non-partisan cabinet).

Obama is now being related to Abe Lincoln? Please tell me you're not.....


suck it up, sit back and see what happens. you doomsayers are a little whack if ya ask me. :)

.............because I don't think there is any way in hell Obama can save the economy all the while funding multiple wars, continuing to give a countless amount of money in foreign aide, making the government bigger, and piling an incredibly hefty "stimulus" bill on top of it? That's not doomsaying, that's common sense.

Oh! Wait, or is it because I don't think Obama is change? Uhm... I already proved that one.... in my first post on this thread.

[Mr Punch]

Obama himself set the high expectations.

Of course within days of being elected he suddenly lowered the bar. :rolleyes:
What a very poor memory. Well before the election he was always repeating that he probably wouldn't be able to do much about the mess you're in for a while, probably the first four years.

I mean, I don't know if he's got any answers, but he still hasn't had a fair chance from the likes of you. And even if he's a tosser, the fact that he's in is already a change... Wasn't it you who came out with some quote about cycles and being apprehensive when everyone else is celebrating? Well, now everyone has gone back to being apprehensive as usual so you can start celebrating! If his policies don't work: great - you lot get what you want and it swings back to the far right. If his policies work: great, they work! So it's a win-win situation in the slightly longer run.

And in the short run we're all ****ed anyway, and there was nobody better suited to try and pull you out: not McCain, not that freak Ron Paul, not Clinton, not the other GOP circus types, not Gordon Brown and not the EU. Let's face it, like them or not, the GOP and possibly the whole electoral status quo needed and still need shaking up.

[Mr Punch]

Oh, and welcome back Uki, you nutjob you! :D

[Kymus]

* he's filled his cabinet with war hawks and "bio-tech yes men".
He has/is established/ing a cabinet of people who are not YES men to him.

They're GMO-loving lobbyists. There is absolutely no reason why they should have any position in his cabinet or anyone else's.


* Cites WMD bull**** over Iran
Iran is actively pursuing nuclear technology.


No, they're not. (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/12/iran/index.html) WMD all over again, just like I said.


* Talks tough with Russia as if they're bullies when it's already been established that Georgia was the agressor
do you read the news? Russia is a bully and uses energy stoppage in the middle of winter to force the EU to pay higher prices for energy.

I read multiple news sources every day, thank you. In the conflict between Russia and Georgia, Georgia was the aggressor (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081111_cold_war_hawks_nesting_with_obama/).


* Thinks the Patriot Act gives law enforcement "the tools they need"
portions of it do. how many cops do you know who have been stifled from doing their jobs or courts that have released known criminals because there are no legal measures to contain them? the patriot act will go,

Obama has said himself that he supports it. Obama's full quote, is that it gives law enforcement the tools they need to keep us safe. Where have I heard that rhetoric before? Have you read either Patriot Act? I have. It's unnecessary and filled to the brim with rights-grabbing bullsh!t. It's being misused, to boot.

Also, from the ACLU's site:



The Patriot Act “updated” surveillance powers – but failed to “update” the checks and balances needed to ensure those surveillance powers include proper judicial oversight.

For example, a roving wiretap follows the target of the surveillance from telephone to telephone. Because there is a greater potential for abuse using roving wiretaps compared to traditional wiretaps, which apply to a single telephone, Congress insisted on important privacy safeguards when, prior to the Patriot Act, it first approved this “updated” surveillance power for criminal investigations.

Section 206 of the Patriot Act created roving wiretaps in Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) investigations. Section 206 erodes the basic constitutional rule of particularization by allow the government to obtain “roving wiretaps” without empowering the court to make sure that the government ascertain that the conversations being intercepted actually involve a target of the investigation. Section 206 also created “John Doe” roving wiretaps – wiretaps that need not specify a target or a device such as a telephone.

The failure to include an ascertainment requirement, and the failure to require naming either a target or a device, is what is controversial about section 206 of the Patriot Act. Congress “updated” the surveillance power, but didn’t update the safeguards.

Another example is the use of “pen registers” and “trap and trace” devices to track detailed information about Internet use. Telephone pen/trap orders, as they are known, permit the government to obtain a list of telephone numbers for incoming or outgoing calls with a court order not based on probable cause. However, Internet addressing information reveals much more detail, such as the specific web pages viewed or search terms entered into a search engine. When Congress expanded the government’s power to get pen/trap orders for Internet communications in the Patriot Act, however, these differences between telephone and Internet communications were ignored. Congress failed to specify rules to ensure that the privacy of ordinary Americans web surfing and e-mail habits were protected.

Again, Congress updated the surveillance powers, but not the safeguards.

You can read more here: http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/facts.html


but i don't think it has effected too many innocent people at all.

http://www.naturalnews.com/News_000681_Patriot_Act_terrorism_air_travel.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/minn-s11.shtml
http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2003/MERC-Jun-26-Thu-2003/21596133.html
http://preview.tinyurl.com/df5ewl
http://grep.law.harvard.edu/articles/02/12/08/2244247.shtml
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/probe/20031104-0835-nv-corruptionprobe.html
http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5062481.html
http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2003/09/60440
http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/the_clipboard/006482.php
http://frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=7C7E61F7-AD19-49DD-80DA-EB6E119BE547
http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-article.html
....there's more, but I think you get the point.


it will sunset, but it has to have new laws put into play that will protect ports, airports and entry points into your country and mine. I can live with it until they come up with those laws.

Specifically why does it need these "new laws"? 9/11 was highly preventable.


* Refuses to impeach Bush & Co. (and Biden predictably flip flopped on the issue himself. What a difference pre and post election makes) why should he do what people tell him to do?

Because he's a public servant? Because a majority of his voters want Bush impeached? Because no one is above the law? Prior to the election, Biden agreed that it's important to investigate because no one is above the law. Magically his opinion changed afterwards. What a coincidence...


he's the president and he'll take things under advisement

His response on this issue wasn't one of advisement, it's a cop-out.


and who knows, maybe you'll see Bush and Cheney up for war crimes yet!

He won't.


* Won't keep his word on Iraq presumption on your part

Hardly (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/05-0) a presumption (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/05-1).


* Favors war with Afghanistan and Pakistan dude, I am canadian, a classical liberal and I favour bringing order to those countries in order to get rid of the taliban and other terrorist organizations.

:rolleyes: that won't happen. Let's just end these wars and stop smacking the beehive. We're only making things worse. The Russians tried in their prime, and failed.. The British tried in their prime, and failed....

Obama is wrong on Afghanistan (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/mcgovern-g1.html)
When Will Obama Give Up The Bin Laden Ghost Hunt? (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1859354,00.html)
Why Obama is Wrong (http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind148.html)
The War on Afghanistan Was Wrong, Too (http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger136.html)


* Already has blood on his hands in Pakistan[b] a couple of drops comparable to what the former president did

Please don't give me a pathetic excuse as a rebuttal. It was wrong then and it is still wrong now. There's no excuse for this.


* Gonna "spend us out of debt" (lol)[b] like how bush did?

David, listen, I really don't want to be snarky enemies; I'd much rather polite, informed conversation. But I must say...... please stop injecting this "but Bush" bullsh!t. I don't like Bush any and I criticized him from day one, and 8 years of "But Clinton" really should of been enough for you to know better, man...

I am not talking about big spending, that's a separate issue. My issue here, is that Obama has said he plans on spending us out of debt, which I think is a load of garbage. He's feeding the fire instead of putting it out.


* Appointed Hillary Clinton to Secretary of State... of all people..[b] Hillary is powerful, got 18 million votes from her supporters and carries a lot of voices of voting america with her into that position

She's also a war hawk

What the Clinton Appointment Means (http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13785)


* HUGE spender favoring bailouts uh, the bailouts were forged by the GOP, I wouldn't cast blame on his senatorial vote in that regard, even if he did vote against, it would have happened and again, enjoy your dinner and the home you live in for it

I'm sorry, that's a red herring David. I am fully aware of the fact that it would have gone through without Obama. My criticism, is his support for it. It's bullsh!t and just about everyone except for maybe the most die-hard fan of Bush knows that.


* Pals around with Zbigniew Brzezinski him and every other former president.

Exactly how is that a rebuttal of my criticism? Aren't we a little old for accepting "everyone else does it"?

[BoulderDawg]

I think the future of the democratic party in Washington is pretty bright.

After all look at the power in the GOP: Rush Limbuagh, Joe The Plumber and Sarah Palin.........:D

[uki]

Oh, and welcome back Uki, you nutjob you!i never really left... i just lurk sometimes. you should follow lucas and david to my other forum for one heck of a ride... although david is not telling who he is at the moment it seems. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

i never really left... i just lurk sometimes.
how's your neck of the woods? are you covered in snow out there? your outdoor training space must look very cool that way!

[mawali]

uki said
most everyone believes obama is here to change america, end global warming, and bring peace and prosperity to the whole world!!! lets see for ourselves and make our own minds up... some examples of the change we can believe in.

I know of no one who can do this, not even Jesus!
That being said and if we see the wisdom of the Daodejing, Obama can only change himself, which he did, There are people who see hope (for a better America) and so they are swayed to try to initiate that same change.

The rest do not believe in Obama's vision (aka THE CRAP) and they prefer to go against it Obama's vision) meaning they want thinks to remain the same as in George Bush's version of America. The rest see nothing to change despite the stagflation, unemployment, and ancillary service suffering depression

One cane never change people! They must see the will and need to change and initiate it themselves. Global warming, is at best humorous, because regardles of what we think about it and look at the data, something is CHANGING. Snow in New Orleans, Louisiana and parts of the South, snowfall in S. Africa, snow in London, polar cpas melting! If that is not change (keep in mind Obama has nothing to do with this) then nothing is!!!!!!!!!!

Obama or anyone for that matter cannot change LAZY, FOOLISH or IGNORANT PEOPLE and THOS INCAPABLE OF LEARNING.

God Bless America (we need it)

[uki]

how's your neck of the woods? are you covered in snow out there? your outdoor training space must look very cool that way!we've had nothing but a layer of snow-ice for quite some time now... i shoveled off the patio after the first storm and a day later the next one came through... oh well... it will melt. my training currently consists of cutting up and hand splitting the logging truck of wood i just got to keep the house warm. chopping 8-10 cords of wood by hand beats mosts workout regimens in my book... makes one heck of pi quan strike... HIYA!! :)

i still look down my driveway for you... would you accept an invitation to my house?

[1bad65]

Mandatory community service and the stop-loss issue are apples and oranges.

One is the government using forced, slave labor. The other is the government exercising a clause in a contract the person signed themselves when voluntarily joining the military.

And don't blame Bush. As the Commander-in-Chief, Obama could sign an executive order ending the practice with the stroke of a pen.

[BoulderDawg]

It seems like Obama is starting to get his legs under him a little. You knew though that the GOP was going to try to push him around just to see how far they can push.

Also, the Neos have had their way for so long that they are going to fight anything. It will be interesting to see how long this last. I say if they continue to vote as a solid block against every thing the president proposes then there is no need to include them in any decision making processes. The Dems have the votes.

[David Jamieson]

obama needs to punch congress in the face and knee the senate in the balls. after that, he should just become a dictator and squish all opposition, install martial law and destroy any opposition.

now that would be change!

:p

[Baqualin]

obama needs to punch congress in the face and knee the senate in the balls. after that, he should just become a dictator and squish all opposition, install martial law and destroy any opposition.

now that would be change!

:p

I can agree with the first sentence totally......the rest is a bit much.
BQ

[David Jamieson]

I can agree with the first sentence totally......the rest is a bit much.
BQ

well, a good negotiator always asks for more than what he wants.

so a punch in the face for congress and a knee in the cajones to the senate it is then! hooray! That's change worth watching! :p

[1bad65]

Wall Street sure doesn't think much of the 'stimulus' bill. The Dow plummeted on news it passed the Senate.

For a guy who promised to 'take a scalpel' to government spending and attacked Bush for the national debt to push for a 'stimulus' bill that gives millions to ACORN, and creates a government health care czar to oversee PRIVATE heathcare among other things, it's ridiculous.

I'm already seeing people saying "Don't blame me, I voted for McCain". Gee, who predicted that?

[1bad65]

"The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.

But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”

Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464).

The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis."

http://www.narbosa.com/2009/02/universal-health-czar-is-in-stimulus.html

Does this sound like someone who loves individual freedom and liberty would want? This is what SOCIALIST countries do, not free countries. Does the government have the right to put a price/worth on YOUR life?

[BoulderDawg]

Wall Street sure doesn't think much of the 'stimulus' bill. The Dow plummeted on news it passed the Senate.

For a guy who promised to 'take a scalpel' to government spending and attacked Bush for the national debt to push for a 'stimulus' bill that gives millions to ACORN, and creates a government health care czar to oversee PRIVATE heathcare among other things, it's ridiculous.

I'm already seeing people saying "Don't blame me, I voted for McCain". Gee, who predicted that?


Do you really expect Wall Street to be happy with the Obama Admin? For far too long now they've had the run of the house. The expectation is that Obama is going to put an end to that and regulate the market so it will be fair and reflect the true values of the commodies bought and sold.

By the way the only place you are going to see those "Don't blame me....." comments are on your neo blogs.

[bakxierboxer]

An old student emailed me this (non)bumper sticker:

[Faruq]

obama won't get much done with the way the economy is going. i am betting he will be 1 term president.

I agree. Every president says they're gonna fix the economy, they unveil a big plan explaining how they're going to do, and it never gets fixed. It's like there's something so illusive that has ruined it, no one can put there finger on it and turn things around. I recently saw the Money Masters documentary and was pretty impressed with how they broke things down. Assuming the makers of the documentary are right, I doubt any president can turn the economy around. The stimulus package is like putting a bandaid on a guy who needs some kind of internal surgery...

[BoulderDawg]

There is no such thing as "fix" the economy. Certain indicators make it stronger or weaker at any given time.

We can do things to improve the economy but it's not like throwing a switch. With the mess that Bush left it's going to take a long time before businesses are no longer closing and people are working again at full employment.

One term president? If Bush could be elected for a 2nd term with the job he was doing the only thing that will keep anyone else out is scandal....Also, the best they have right now is Sarah Palin. :D

[Luk Hop]

An old student emailed me this (non)bumper sticker:

I like it.

It is interesting how a lot of people rant about Bush and the neocons being fascist.

Well?


Change my AS_!!!

[BoulderDawg]

It is interesting how a lot of people rant about Bush and the neocons being fascist.

Well?

Well what? What people are you talking about? What commments are they making? What is your argument against these comments?

If anything I notice you Neos have this bumper sticker mentality. Anything more than a dozen (or less) words on the back of a pick-up truck is way too intellectual for you.:D

[1bad65]

It is interesting how a lot of people rant about Bush and the neocons being fascist.

Abortions, massive taxes, anti-guns, big government, socialized medicine, telling old people they get less healthcare because young people deserve it more, etc .

That sounds alot like Germany in the 1930s-1945.

[uki]

Abortions, massive taxes, anti-guns, big government, socialized medicine, telling old people they get less healthcare because young people deserve it more, etc .

That sounds alot like Germany in the 1930s-1945.now wouldn't that be a niffty little co-incidence...

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10172007/news/regionalnews/dissing_cousins__obama__cheney.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

http://ecosyn.us/Bush-Hitler/

unfortunately there is no such thing as co-incidences. funny how history isn't always put out in the full light of the truth. :)

[Luk Hop]

Well what? What people are you talking about? What commments are they making? What is your argument against these comments?

If anything I notice you Neos have this bumper sticker mentality. Anything more than a dozen (or less) words on the back of a pick-up truck is way too intellectual for you.:D



It is interesting that you automatically assume that I myself would be a neocon. I did not vote for Bush, Kerry, Gore, McCain or Obama. I am in no way defending the Bush administration, but take a moment and compare what is taking place now as opposed to what has taken place.

As defined by Webster Dictionary -

Fascist:
1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.


I think #1 is being accomplished. #2 is fast becoming reality.

"We all need to work together." "Now is not the time to be selfish." "It's your patriotic duty." "Now is not the time for partisanship." "We are in the worst economic crisis since the Depression."

"1bad65 Quote:
Abortions, massive taxes, anti-guns, big government, socialized medicine, telling old people they get less healthcare because young people deserve it more, etc .
That sounds alot like Germany in the 1930s-1945. "

Yes.



uki
"now wouldn't that be a niffty little co-incidence..."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10172007...ma__cheney.htm

Suddenly it is all making sense.:D Thanks for the link. I must have missed that one.

[1bad65]

We are all responsible for own actions, not our family members and ancestors.

Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer (and many other serial killers) have had children. Are those children to be judged based on their father's deeds?

[1bad65]

It is interesting that you automatically assume that I myself would be a neocon.

Because everyone who does not believe everything his mentally ill mind believes is a "Neocon". Also, any source you find who disagrees with his reality is a "neo blog".

It's much easier to just put him on ignore. It's alot like arguing mathematics with a guy who will ALWAYS belive 2+2=5. No matter how smart and rational you are, or how experienced and knowledgeable in the field you are, it is a useless endeavor.

[uki]

Suddenly it is all making sense.:D Thanks for the link. I must have missed that one.if you're still interested... how about some more food for thought. :)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23797072/

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=5315

http://www.angelfire.com/biz5/piso/main-gen.html

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/bushbloodline.shtml

now that is some definite change we can believe in. :D

[BoulderDawg]

What's really amazing about the whole thing is the Neos are yelling and screaming about spending money............Does 12 billion a month in Iraq ring a bell? It's not only the money but the fact that it is turned over without any controls whatsoever? It doesn't cost 12 billion a month for what we do in Iraq.

To be honest I don't have problems spending money for almost anything over here in the state (except giving it to religious organizations) but the average US citizen never ask "Does it really cost to do........?"

A good example of this is the story of Jeff Monson spray painting the Washington State Capital. The state said it would cost 19K to remove the paint........I wish they would contract that job out to me. I would take their 19K, spend about $50 for some paint thinner, rags and brushes and have that job done in about two hours.

[WinterPalm]

I feel sorry for intelligent Americans.

Canada is always open for anyone that wants out!

[1bad65]

I feel sorry for intelligent Americans.

Canada is always open for anyone that wants out!

You got it backwards. America is where intelligent sick Canadians go.

Although the Democrats want to FORCE us into the same sub-par healthcare system you guys have.

[Kansuke]

I gotta say that the combination of:

-card check

-fairness doctine

-census reporting directly to the white house

-government expansion like FDR on crack




are all looming developments that could be giant leaps in a troubling direction, all the other stuff aside.




We'll see...

[David Jamieson]

You got it backwards. America is where intelligent sick Canadians go.

Although the Democrats want to FORCE us into the same sub-par healthcare system you guys have.

you don't understand at all, why do you comment?

we do not have a sub par health system. gebas, do your homework.

[1bad65]

you don't understand at all, why do you comment?

we do not have a sub par health system. gebas, do your homework.

Then why do sick Canadians come down here? It's especially common to come here to see specialists instead of waiting in line (which can often be fatal) in Canada. It's a fact of life, whether you choose to accept it or not.

EVERY socialist medicine system is sub-par when compared to a free market sytem.

[1bad65]

"In 2006, the average amount of time spent waiting to receive treatment after referral by a general practitioner averaged 17.8 weeks across Canada. At 14.9 weeks, Ontario had the shortest waits. Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, and New Brunswick had average waits of 25.8 weeks, 28.5 weeks, and 31.9 weeks, respectively.

Patients referred to a neurosurgeon waited an average of 21 weeks just to see a specialist. Getting treatment required an additional 10.7 weeks.

Patients waited an average of 16.2 weeks to see an orthopedic surgeon, and another 24.2 weeks for treatment to be performed after the initial visit.

The number of people routinely waiting for services is staggering, according to the report. In 2003, the most recent year for which data were available from Statistics Canada, approximately 1.1 million people had trouble accessing care on a timely basis.

In Canada, waiting lists are considered a way of rationing medical care and holding down health care spending. Because health care in Canada is largely free at the point of service, demand is likely to exceed supply.

In a typical market system, the price would adjust to the point where the quantity of services provided is equal to the amount patients are willing to buy. But in a system devoid of a market mechanism, scarce resources are rationed through means other than price.

Gratzer agreed.“It’s like the old Soviet system,” Gratzer said. “Everything is free, but nothing is readily available. Except that we’re not talking about lining up for toilet paper in Russia in 1976, but queuing for surgery in Canada in 2006.”

Waiting lists are consequences of the way the Canadian health care system
is structured, not a lack of money, critics say.

“Long waits and widespread denial of needed care are a permanent and necessary part of government-run systems,” Parnell noted."

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=canada+%22health+care%22+problems&fr=yfp-t-501&u=www.insure.com/articles/healthinsurance/canadian-medical-care.html&w=canada+%22health+care%22+problems&d=AwkKNw-YSTBR&icp=1&.intl=us

[BoulderDawg]

So who cares about Canada?

I've always avocated a national health plan but no one never said you have to sign up for it. Let the rich continue to abuse the system by going to the doctor everytime they over eat and have a belly ache or carrying their kids if they hear a single cough. Many of these people visit doctors 40-50 times a year. Let them have that if the Docs are willing to put up with it.......and considering how much money they get from the insurance companies there are a long list of doctors who are. However lets give everyone in this country who wants it the diginty of having a health care plan and going to the doctor when they really need it.

[Baqualin]

So who cares about Canada?

I've always avocated a national health plan but no one never said you have to sign up for it. Let the rich continue to abuse the system by going to the doctor everytime they over eat and have a belly ache or carrying their kids if they hear a single cough. Many of these people visit doctors 40-50 times a year. Let them have that if the Docs are willing to put up with it.......and considering how much money they get from the insurance companies there are a long list of doctors who are. However lets give everyone in this country who wants it the diginty of having a health care plan and going to the doctor when they really need it.

Just curious..... are you married and if so do you have children?
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

I worked with a guy who had two children and between the four of them they ended up at their doctors over 75 times in the year that I worked with him....Nothing particularity wrong with any of them. They just believe in better life through medicine. I feel sorry for these people.

Believe it or not there are plenty of parents that don't have that 1950s mentality of better life through a doctor and a pill. However these people are usually educated, liberal and sensible when it comes to medication.

Did you grow up in the 1950s? A time when smoking was good for you, Mother's milk was bad and Americans were encouraged to use every drug known to mankind to cure any ills.

[Baqualin]

I worked with a guy who had two children and between the four of them they ended up at their doctors over 75 times in the year that I worked with him....Nothing particularity wrong with any of them. They just believe in better life through medicine. I feel sorry for these people.

Believe it or not there are plenty of parents that don't have that 1950s mentality of better life through a doctor and a pill. However these people are usually educated, liberal and sensible when it comes to medication.

Did you grow up in the 1950s? A time when smoking was good for you, Mother's milk was bad and Americans were encouraged to use every drug known to mankind to cure any ills.

Yes I did.....smoking was not thought to be GOOD for you (just not thought to be as bad as we know now)...I was a tit baby (so was the rest of my family) and only went to the doctor when I had stuff like measles, mumps, chicken pox or something broken......was given alot of old time cures for colds, headaches, ear aches and belly aches....which usually worked.....I think the take a pill for everything is a more modern approach...not the 50's and 60's. I've raised 3 boys and rarely did we take them to the Doctor.
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

I saw the list they had where they ranked the presidents. For the most part it's fairly accurate. I do think Reagan #10 is way too high on that list. But what really blew me out of the water was Bush at #36...You've got to be f'ing kidding me. To even suggest he would be that high is incredible.......He should be dead last without a doubt...followed closely by Nixon and Harding.

[uki]

more change we should've believed in... http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/02/16/despite-obama-pledge-justice-defends-bush-secrets-2/

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5748716.ece

my how things are changing... :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Just read where Chrysler wants another 5 billion from the government.

They were already granted 4 billion in December and there is no need to throw good money after bad...that's business 101.

In fact if that entire 4 billion hasn't already been turned over why give them any of that money either.

Give me .0001% of that 5 billion and I'll create a business that actually makes money.

[Faruq]

Since this thread's about Obama and whether he'll be able to bring change, it reminded me of how Black people at work are so serious about him. I mean of course I'm Black too, but people at work get offended even if someone makes a joke about him. But I think the fact that he's been elected shows that tremendous change has occurred. I never thought it could happen because of the history of race and status in this country, and still don't trust that the klan or even just the Lee Harvey Oswald's are cool with it. But Obama convinced enough of White America to vote for him that now he's president, and I think he's got to be a dynamic personage to have been able to do that.

[Luk Hop]

But Obama convinced enough of White America to vote for him that now he's president, and I think he's got to be a dynamic personage to have been able to do that.


I disagree. I think that many blacks incorrectly assume what you stated. His support by many whites was reactionary. Many whites voted for him because they thought that he was going to bring home the troops and end the war, have a transparent presidency, and bring about a massive overhaul of the political system in Washington.

The question now is: is he really doing any of that?

Just my thoughts. Am I still entitled to those?

[David Jamieson]

Iraq is gonna get a rethink. It has to. There is still no stability there and what needs to happen is full UN and NATO involvement in reconstruction, policing and security.

Unfortunately, Cheney made sure everyone else was cut out of the deal and it's gonna take time to get that trust back from everyone else.

You can't just ship those guys all to Afghanistan and you can't just pull them all out and leave it at that. He will be wise to listen to the generals who are running the show and going with their advice on getting out.

I think he is running a transparent presidency.

I think the overhaul in Washington was actually McCain's campaign battlecry, but I don't think either of them has the power to make that happen.

the lobby groups are what they are and they will tooth and nail fight for what they want and they will pocket as many congressmen and senators that they can on a federal level and have already done so at the state level.

no one, not obama, not jesus christ himself can rid washington of corruption. Or any other political arena. Politics is all lies and dirty business. rarely does anything universally good come from it and we should mostly be thankful that there isn't aristocracy outright and blatant slavery anymore and that has more to do with people in grass roots movements forcing change and not some head of state doing anything.

[uki]

Iraq is gonna get a rethink. It has to. There is still no stability there and what needs to happen is full UN and NATO involvement in reconstruction, policing and security.you got that right, obama is going to need an excuse to send as many troops off as possible to ensure they won't be around when martial law is declared in america... UN and nato troops will have no qualms firing on american civilians, where as american soldiers would.


Unfortunately, Cheney made sure everyone else was cut out of the deal and it's gonna take time to get that trust back from everyone else.cheneys reaping the spoils of his money invested in operating and running private jails and citizen detainment camps.


You can't just ship those guys all to Afghanistan and you can't just pull them all out and leave it at that.again you got that right, just keep the whole operation in a state of delusional limbo until everything else is put into place back home here.


He will be wise to listen to the generals who are running the show and going with their advice on getting out.true, but listening to generals would amount to a ruining of the plan to keep troops bogged down and away from american martial law.


I think he is running a transparent presidency.nice understatement.


I think the overhaul in Washington was actually McCain's campaign battlecry, but I don't think either of them has the power to make that happen. both are just poster boy smokescreens that divert the attention away from the truth of the matter.


the lobby groups are what they are and they will tooth and nail fight for what they want and they will pocket as many congressmen and senators that they can on a federal level and have already done so at the state level.corruption at its finest... and to think people put up with this crap.


no one, not obama, not jesus christ himself can rid washington of corruption. Or any other political arena.a few nice sized meteors, a few earthquakes, a tsunami or two, and i think that might do the trick.


Politics is all lies and dirty business. which is obviously a good enough reason for not involving yourself in it at all then.


rarely does anything universally good come from it yet how many suckers fall in line, buy the hogwash, and cast a vote deluding themselves of the truth...


and we should mostly be thankful that there isn't aristocracy outright and blatant slavery anymore and that has more to do with people in grass roots movements forcing change and not some head of state doing anything.slavery is alive and well... they call it debt and don't worry, the people will get sick and tired of being stepped on. :)

[Drake]

President Obama promises 4 square meals for all, unicorns for the children, and peace over the entire globe. I have nothing against the man, but he does seem to be making a lot of promises that he may not be able to keep.

[Luk Hop]

Iraq is gonna get a rethink. It has to. There is still no stability there and what needs to happen is full UN and NATO involvement in reconstruction, policing and security.

Unfortunately, Cheney made sure everyone else was cut out of the deal and it's gonna take time to get that trust back from everyone else.

You can't just ship those guys all to Afghanistan and you can't just pull them all out and leave it at that. He will be wise to listen to the generals who are running the show and going with their advice on getting out.

I think he is running a transparent presidency.

I think the overhaul in Washington was actually McCain's campaign battlecry, but I don't think either of them has the power to make that happen.

the lobby groups are what they are and they will tooth and nail fight for what they want and they will pocket as many congressmen and senators that they can on a federal level and have already done so at the state level.

no one, not obama, not jesus christ himself can rid washington of corruption. Or any other political arena. Politics is all lies and dirty business. rarely does anything universally good come from it and we should mostly be thankful that there isn't aristocracy outright and blatant slavery anymore and that has more to do with people in grass roots movements forcing change and not some head of state doing anything.

I think you bring up some good points. I believe that Obama and his transparent presidency is being greatly affected by the lack of transparency in his partisan Congress. However, I will have to agree with Uki concerning Obama's transparency. A bit vague and shadowy to me. I believe that there is a well orchestrated "good cop bad cop routine" taking place between Obama and Congress.

[uki]

President Obama promises 4 square meals for all, unicorns for the children, and peace over the entire globe. I have nothing against the man, but he does seem to be making a lot of promises that he may not be able to keep.twinkle twinkle little star, how i wonder what you are...

obama is the wolf who stole the shepherds clothing. :)

[1bad65]

President Obama promises 4 square meals for all, unicorns for the children, and peace over the entire globe. I have nothing against the man, but he does seem to be making a lot of promises that he may not be able to keep.

Even he is scaling back those promises. Of course he did it AFTER the election.

Contrast Obama to a great President with a proven record of economic success, Ronald Reagan. While Reagan spoke of the greatness of the American people, how Americans overcome obstacles, how America is the greatest country on earth, and that a new day was coming for America, Obama speaks of it getting worse and how only HE (and government) can fix it. We all know Reagan turned around an economy MUCH WORSE than what we have now in under a year, let's see how well Obama does with the opposite approach and the opposite rhetoric.

[1bad65]

The only thing 'transparent' about the Obama administration is that they haven't been able to hide the fact they are a bunch of lobbyists and tax cheats.

[Faruq]

I disagree. I think that many blacks incorrectly assume what you stated. His support by many whites was reactionary. Many whites voted for him because they thought that he was going to bring home the troops and end the war, have a transparent presidency, and bring about a massive overhaul of the political system in Washington.

The question now is: is he really doing any of that?

Just my thoughts. Am I still entitled to those?

I don't know. You may be right. I kind of think it'd be pretty naive to think any one president could bring about a massive overhaul of Washington. If the bulk of the people that elected him thought that he would though, then I'm wrong. Maybe the vote was reactionary, but if White America had believed for example that say Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton was going to bring home the troops and end the war, and bring about a massive overhaul of the political system in Washington, there's no way either one of them would've ended up in the White House. I think Obama's personality and deft social maneuvering is what made it possible for him. Because if the three issues you mention were what the public wanted, couldn't they have elected a libertarian like Ralph Nader instead of Obama?

That example may be extreme, but my point is that his personality is what allowed him to be elected. His taking the high road every time race came up is what allowed the masses to believe that he'd have the transparent presidency you mention.

[Faruq]

You guys hear this one yet? lol



NEW YORK (Reuters) – Hundreds of demonstrators rallied to boycott the New York Post on Thursday, branding the newspaper as racist for publishing a cartoon that appeared to compare President Barack Obama to a chimpanzee.

Demonstrators led by civil rights activist Al Sharpton chanted "End racism now!" outside the parent company's skyscraper in midtown Manhattan and called for the jailing of Rupert Murdoch, whose international media conglomerate News Corp owns the Post.

The newspaper has defended the cartoon as a parody of Washington politics, but Sharpton said it exploited a potent image in the history of racism toward blacks.

Published on Wednesday, it shows police shooting an ape and plays on the real shooting of a pet chimpanzee that went on a rampage in Connecticut this week.

One of the police officers says, "They'll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill."

Because Obama promoted the $787 billion economic stimulus that he signed into law on Tuesday, critics of the cartoon interpreted the dead chimp as a reference to Obama, who became the first black U.S. president on January 20.

"I guess they thought we were chimpanzees," Sharpton said. "They will find out we are lions."

Sharpton said he would meet with advertisers to encourage them to pull their ads and said New Yorkers would boycott the newspaper.

"You would have to be in a time warp or in a whole other world not to know what that means," said demonstrator Charles Ashley, 25, a model who did not believe the cartoon was an innocent political joke.

Others said it made light of assassinating Obama, a possibility they said that worries many African-Americans.

"Just the fact that they put a monkey with gunshot wounds in his chest, it gives the idea of an assassination," said Peter Aviles, 48, a building superintendent.

Police in Stamford, Connecticut, shot and killed a 200-pound (90-kg) chimpanzee on Monday after the pet nearly killed its owner's friend and attacked a police car. The chimp, named Travis, had once starred in television commercials and was taking medication for Lyme disease.

New York Post Editor-in-Chief Col Allan said in a statement the cartoon "broadly mocks Washington's efforts to revive the economy."

(Editing by Daniel Trotta and David Wiessler)

Collapse ArticleTurn OFF Expand/Collapse Article

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/ylocalnews;_ylt=AikAHB4vbay2yUYh83pjbBgXIr0F;_ylu= X3oDMTFhbHFjN29wBHBvcwM4BHNlYwN5bl9yXzNzbG90X3ZpZG VvBHNsawN2aWQtZWQtbGluaw--?ch=4226712&cl=12113775&lang=en

[Luk Hop]

I don't know. You may be right. I kind of think it'd be pretty naive to think any one president could bring about a massive overhaul of Washington. If the bulk of the people that elected him thought that he would though, then I'm wrong. Maybe the vote was reactionary, but if White America had believed for example that say Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton was going to bring home the troops and end the war, and bring about a massive overhaul of the political system in Washington, there's no way either one of them would've ended up in the White House. I think Obama's personality and deft social maneuvering is what made it possible for him. Because if the three issues you mention were what the public wanted, couldn't they have elected a libertarian like Ralph Nader instead of Obama?

That example may be extreme, but my point is that his personality is what allowed him to be elected. His taking the high road every time race came up is what allowed the masses to believe that he'd have the transparent presidency you mention.

Good points.

Yea, people really are that naive. Let's face it most Americans are just plain stupid.

Obama is a very charismatic politician who was able to flow with a very smooth and well run campaign. No doubt his campaign used the internet at levels never seen before in a presidential campaign and also had very favorable backing from the media in general.

Ralph Nader (independent) - sorry - not a viable alternative. People remember when he was with the Green Party which was basically hijacked by the evironmental & ****sexual interest groups.

Bob Barr (libertarian) - people are afraid of them there libertarians - "don't they want to legalize pot and what not"


The American people are simply afraid of to much change. How can a 3rd party compete with the amounts of advertising that the Obama campaign was able to produce.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton - to much baggage.

So what is left ? McCain - Need anymore be said when compared to Obama.

Anyways, I did not vote for either one -

just my opinion

[uki]

Hundreds of demonstrators rallied to boycott the New York Post on Thursday, branding the newspaper as racist for publishing a cartoon that appeared to compare President Barack Obama to a chimpanzee.
what's ironic is no one said jack about when bush was compared to a chimp... and yet these two clowns are also related to each other, besides, obama is not really black, he's a mutt like most the rest of us, he just happens to be a few shades darker with bush ears.

this racist crap is getting lame already...

[SharkyT]

In any case Bad's argument is that everyone in the Bush admin is fine God fearing people while the people in Obama's admin are cheats and criminals.....

I saw the crappy job those decent "God fearing people" did........Give me the criminals and cheats any day of the week.

I totally agree, BoulderDawg. I have seen what "god-fearing people" can do. A bunch of hypocrites and bathroom Stall jockeys. Bad's argument for God fearing people sounds too much like " Children of the Corn" bull****.

[1bad65]

Luk Hop makes alot of sense.

[1bad65]

I totally agree, BoulderDawg. I have seen what "god-fearing people" can do. A bunch of hypocrites and bathroom Stall jockeys. Bad's argument for God fearing people sounds too much like " Children of the Corn" bull****.

Can either of you knuckleheads point out where I mention God in my argument?

[Water Dragon]

Oh wow, I figured you'd be banned by now. I heard they got a cyber-contract out on ya, Bro.

It's wabbit hunting season, ya know.

[Faruq]

this racist crap is getting lame already...

Yeah, I think you're right. This probably wasn't the right place for me to have posted this either.

[BoulderDawg]

Can either of you knuckleheads point out where I mention God in my argument?

This is just another example of you trying to change the subject.

As far as I know you have not mentioned God anywhere on this thread. However that's not the point. There has to be a yin to your yang. You're constantly bringing things up about people in the Obama admin that informs me they are tax cheats, immoral scoundrels. incompetant and probably ho-mo commies to boot. You are implying that the conservative people who held these jobs before where of higher moral character.

Unlike you, I don't judge whether or not a man can do a job based on his high moral character. Frankly I don't care as long as the job is getting done......The conservatives in the Bush Admin was running the country into the ground. Give me professionals of questionable moral character anyday.

[BoulderDawg]

what's ironic is no one said jack about when bush was compared to a chimp... and yet these two clowns are also related to each other, besides, obama is not really black, he's a mutt like most the rest of us, he just happens to be a few shades darker with bush ears.

Musta missed that. Do you have a link to the "Bush is a monkey" cartoon?

Not onkly was the cartoon disgusting from a racial standpoint but is was also trying to make light of a situation where a woman was seriously disfigured and almost killed.

[Drake]

Even he is scaling back those promises. Of course he did it AFTER the election.

Contrast Obama to a great President with a proven record of economic success, Ronald Reagan. While Reagan spoke of the greatness of the American people, how Americans overcome obstacles, how America is the greatest country on earth, and that a new day was coming for America, Obama speaks of it getting worse and how only HE (and government) can fix it. We all know Reagan turned around an economy MUCH WORSE than what we have now in under a year, let's see how well Obama does with the opposite approach and the opposite rhetoric.

It doesn't help that the opposing party had no plan except to attack the dems' ideas without producing their own fix. Face it. Republicans basically elected Obama.

[uki]

republican, democrat... no difference. nothing more than another control mechanism to keep people divided against themselves... pro-choice, same sex marriage, christianity, islam, jew, gentile, classical, modern, patriot, traitor, racism... all divisions.

mankind needs to see past the divisions in order to free itself from the yoke of oppression.

[1bad65]

It doesn't help that the opposing party had no plan except to attack the dems' ideas without producing their own fix. Face it. Republicans basically elected Obama.

I agree the Republicans cooked their own goose. But they did have plans, they were just not able to enact them. They tried to force Fannie and Freddie to open their books before the housing bubble popped, but were called racists and fell short of the votes needed. They also called for large tax cuts rather than massive spending to fix the current slump.

[Baqualin]

republican, democrat... no difference. nothing more than another control mechanism to keep people divided against themselves... pro-choice, same sex marriage, christianity, islam, jew, gentile, classical, modern, patriot, traitor, racism... all divisions.

mankind needs to see past the divisions in order to free itself from the yoke of oppression.

Man I hate to say this....your right:)
BQ

[David Jamieson]

what's ironic is no one said jack about when bush was compared to a chimp... and yet these two clowns are also related to each other, besides, obama is not really black, he's a mutt like most the rest of us, he just happens to be a few shades darker with bush ears.

this racist crap is getting lame already...

actually there was a lot of hand wringing, foot stamping and bleating coming from republicans when Bush was referred to as a chimp and ridiculed over and over again.

David Frum and Carl Rove would push out huge whining oped pieces ralying the base and so on.

How quickly we forget.

I think what needs to happen is that race card players and race baiters need to STFU and if people want to ridicule the president then so be it. That comes with the territory of the office.

To demand that he not be ridiculed or satarized because he's black is the height of stupidity and it is racist as well.

If Michael Moore can write a book called "Stupid White Men" Then anyone should be able to make a book called "Stupid Black Men".

If you disagree, you're fascist scum. :p

[1bad65]

I think what needs to happen is that race card players and race baiters need to STFU and if people want to ridicule the president then so be it. That comes with the territory of the office.

To demand that he not be ridiculed or satarized because he's black is the height of stupidity and it is racist as well.

I agree with you on this.

Ridiculing the President, or any other politician, is a Constitutional right.

[GLW]

"ridiculed or satarized because he's black"

I would expect better grammar than this.

Are you saying :

"To demand that, because he's black, he not be ridiculed or satarized "

Or another way to interpret the statement you wrote is :

"ridicules or satirized BECAUSE he's black" implying that the ridicule is based upon race and not upon his position or policies.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, I will assume you meant the first interpretation - which I would agree.

However, the argument about the recent cartoon was not that it was standard political disagreement but rather it was harkening back to racial stereotypes and phrases such as "gorilla, ape, monkey, etc... " used to refer to a person based upon them being of African descent.

Now, don't say that the author and publisher were not or could not be aware of such bigoted statements. I have heard such jokes and statements a good portion of my life.

I saw the cartoon. I immediately knew what news story they were referencing. I also immediately was aware of the racist implications as well as the excuse that would be made on how it was NOT intended to be a racial slur.

Right....just like a flirting double entendre is not intended to cause the object of the flirtation to blush or respond positively.

[1bad65]

Here's another thing Obama promised that he seems to have forgotten; ending predatory lending.

I don't know about you guys, but where I live the amount of ads for places like Aaron's and Rent-A-Center have went way up. Those guys are the poster children for predatory lending, with APRs of up to 220%! And they are flourishing under Obama, rather than being reigned-in like he promised.

And his enormous 'stimulus' plan didn't even touch on the subject.

http://www.pirg.org/consumer/rtoloan.htm

[David Jamieson]

"ridiculed or satarized because he's black"

I would expect better grammar than this.

Are you saying :

"To demand that, because he's black, he not be ridiculed or satarized "

Or another way to interpret the statement you wrote is :

"ridicules or satirized BECAUSE he's black" implying that the ridicule is based upon race and not upon his position or policies.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, I will assume you meant the first interpretation - which I would agree.

However, the argument about the recent cartoon was not that it was standard political disagreement but rather it was harkening back to racial stereotypes and phrases such as "gorilla, ape, monkey, etc... " used to refer to a person based upon them being of African descent.

Now, don't say that the author and publisher were not or could not be aware of such bigoted statements. I have heard such jokes and statements a good portion of my life.

I saw the cartoon. I immediately knew what news story they were referencing. I also immediately was aware of the racist implications as well as the excuse that would be made on how it was NOT intended to be a racial slur.

Right....just like a flirting double entendre is not intended to cause the object of the flirtation to blush or respond positively.

sweet jebas man, can the semantics. the intention is clear enough i would think.
besides, who in america, beside english lit eggheads and some other infinitesimally small percentage of people wouldn't get what I was getting at?

[GLW]

The first time I read it, I did so quickly and I thought - "He did NOT just say that..." Then I re-read it and determined that you did not. But, the point is how many people would have NOT re-read it.

Being clear in your intent and words is NOT an English Lit. thing. It is a skill that was once required of all educated people in this country.

Sadly this is no longer the case.

Sort of like "The Panda - eats shoots and leaves" vs. "The Panda - eats, shoots and leaves" I love the image of a panda eating at a restaurant. He then pulls out his gun ala Michael Corleone, fires a couple of rounds, and walks out the door while dropping the gun. All the while, the Godfather theme is playing on the jukebox.

[SimonM]

the Green Party which was basically hijacked by the evironmental <snip> groups.



Shouldn't the GREEN party be environmentalist?

[1bad65]

Shouldn't the GREEN party be environmentalist?

It should.

His point is that they are not anymore, they are run by special interests with their own agenda who don't care about the original agenda that party was founded on.

[BoulderDawg]

It should.

His point is that they are not anymore, they are run by special interests with their own agenda who don't care about the original agenda that party was founded on.

I have my own opinions about the Green Party.

However, as far as I know, they are not puppets of some no name special interest. Other than the "special interest" of people who care about the planet and the health of everyone.

I really expect zero response to this but I won't to know what special interest is running the Greens.

Finally, I'm not interested in a link to an extremist Neo blog.

[1bad65]

I have my own opinions about the Green Party.

However, as far as I know, they are not puppets of some no name special interest. Other than the "special interest" of people who care about the planet and the health of everyone.

I really expect zero response to this but I won't to know what special interest is running the Greens.

Finally, I'm not interested in a link to an extremist Neo blog.

I'll bite, so I'm trying to be rational and give you a chance.

Ten Key Values of the Green Party:

1. Grassroots democracy
2. Social justice and equal opportunity
3. Ecological wisdom
4. Non-violence
5. Decentralization
6. Community-based economics and economic justice
7. Feminism and gender equity
8. Respect for diversity
9. Personal and global responsibility
10. Future focus and sustainability

#s 1,2,4,5,6, and especially 7 and 8 have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the environment.

This is from the Green Party's own website. Are they a 'Neo blog' in your world now?

http://www.gp.org/tenkey.shtml

[1bad65]

Also; Peter Camejo, who ran for VP on the Green Party ticket in 2004, was a member of the Socialist Workers Party, a Trotskyist party.

He was the SWP's nominee for President in 1976 and won 90,986 votes, or 0.1%.

[BoulderDawg]

The Green party is a political party not just an environmental party. They are made up of many environmentalists. These people are taking a holistic view of the world we live in. An environmentalists does not have to limit him/herself to environment issues no more than a christian has to limit theirselves to religious issues.

I don't see anything at all wrong with any of the ten principles. As far as I can see the only "Special Interest" they represent is the human race. What "Special interest" is running the Greens?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Green party is a political party not just an environmental party. They are made up of many environmentalists. These people are taking a holistic view of the world we live in. An environmentalists does not have to limit him/herself to environment issues no more than a christian has to limit theirselves to religious issues.

I don't see anything at all wrong with any of the ten principles. As far as I can see the only "Special Interest" they represent is the human race.

The human race?
Those *******s !!!

[1bad65]

The human race?
Those *******s !!!

It's his cop-out.

He knows he was wrong and he can't admit it. Luk Hop said that ****sexual interest groups (among others) hijacked the Green party. BD disagreed. When I showed him how they themselves say two of their 10 values are "Feminism and gender equity" and "Respect for diversity" which is EXACTLY what ****sexual special interests stand for, he could not admit Luk Hop was correct.

[1bad65]

They call themselves the Green Party, not the Human Race Party.

Luk Hop was right.

[BoulderDawg]

It's his cop-out.

He knows he was wrong and he can't admit it. Luk Hop said that ****sexual interest groups (among others) hijacked the Green party. BD disagreed. When I showed him how they themselves say two of their 10 values are "Feminism and gender equity" and "Respect for diversity" which is EXACTLY what ****sexual special interests stand for, he could not admit Luk Hop was correct.

Feminism, gender equity and respect for diversity cover a broad spectrum. Are you saying you're against these principles? Most of the Greens are liberal. Of course they are going to support equal rights for gay Americans.

Also, as I mentioned, the Green Party is a political party. Of course they are going to concern themselves with political issues. It would not be very productive to field a candidate for some office who was only concerned about environmental issues.

[SimonM]

Edited my quote in my previous question post for the sake of clarity. My point was that it made sense that the green party would be run by environmental groups and thus I questioned the use of the term "highjack"

[Luk Hop]

http://www.gp.org/platform/2004/socjustice.html#999082

Green Party of the United States
Platform 2004
As adopted at the National Nominating Convention
Milwaukee, Wisconsin - June, 2004

II. SOCIAL JUSTICE

5. Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity
In keeping with the Green Key Values of diversity, social justice and feminism, we support full legal and political equality for all persons, regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation.
a. The Green Party affirms the rights of all individuals to freely choose intimate partners, regardless of their sex, gender, or sexual orientation.

b. We support the recognition of equal rights of persons gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender to housing, jobs, civil marriage, medical benefits, child custody, and in all areas of life provided to all other citizens.

c. We support the inclusion of language in state and federal anti-discrimination law that ensures the rights of intersex individuals and prohibits discrimination based on gender identity, characteristics, and expression. We are opposed to intersex genital mutilation.

d. We support the right of all persons to self-determination with regard to gender identity and sex. We therefore support the right of intersex and transgender individuals to be free from coercion and involuntary assignment of gender or sex. We support access to medical and surgical treatment for assignment or reassignment of gender or sex, based on informed consent.

e. We support legislation against all forms of hate crimes, including those directed against people who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, transgender, and intersex.


All of this to my knowledge was not the original platform or intention of the Green Party. Hence the use of the term “hijacked”.

[uki]

"highjack"what in the world have you been smoking today? :D

[BoulderDawg]

All of this to my knowledge was not the original platform or intention of the Green Party. Hence the use of the term “hijacked”.

Really? The Green Party is predominately liberal. They, like me, agree with all the points made in this plank of their platform. Why do you think it changed or varied from the original platform or intentions? Where did you get your information?

Also the "platform" is a very long document. Just like the democrats and the republicans. There are many planks and many liberal goals expressed.

Yes, the Greens support equal rights for gays as well as hundreds of other liberal causes.....this has been the case for the Greens for a very long time.

[1bad65]

All of this to my knowledge was not the original platform or intention of the Green Party. Hence the use of the term “hijacked”.

You're 100% correct.

However, you're debating a guy who refuses to admit ANY of his preconceived notions could possibly be untrue.

[BoulderDawg]

Okay....Then as far as equal rights goes: What was the Green Party's position before it changed?

As Bad doesn't seem to understand a political party that limits it candidates to environmental issues is not going to have a high success rate.

[Luk Hop]

Really? The Green Party is predominately liberal. They, like me, agree with all the points made in this plank of their platform. Why do you think it changed or varied from the original platform or intentions? Where did you get your information?

Also the "platform" is a very long document. Just like the democrats and the republicans. There are many planks and many liberal goals expressed.

Yes, the Greens support equal rights for gays as well as hundreds of other liberal causes.....this has been the case for the Greens for a very long time.

Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 did not support same sex marriage. The Green Party did. Gay activism has increased and has become a much more powerful group in recent years. In some parts of the U.S. gay activism and environmentalism have become quite intermeshed. I believe that some of these people who supported Gore in the 90’s began to make the transition to the Green Party. Why Nader left the Green Party is debatable. Nader did support same sex marriage in his 2004 & 2008 presidential campaigns. However, I do not believe that this was a major focal point of his 2004 & 2008 campaigns.

Personally I believe that Nader’s views of civil liberties differ from the Green Party’s Platform concerning sexual orientation and gender identity that I posted earlier. I am analyzing the actions of Nader and the wording of the various platforms that have been presented by the different political parties involved. I think that some of this can only be answered by knowing the reason(s) as to why Nader shifted to the Reform Party and subsequently ran as an Independent.

All of this is however simply my opinion.

[BoulderDawg]

To start with Gore and Kerry(especially Gore) are no where near anything called "Liberal". I would call Kerry a middle of the road candidate and would say that Gore leans towards the right.

Nader: I'm sure there were many issues involved in his decision to swith parties but I highly doubt it had anything to do with the party's platform on gay Americans.

Personally I have issues with the way the Greens conduct themselves today. I thought with Nader's success in 1996 and 2000 that would kick start the party into a massive grass roots movement that would grow. That has not happened. Unfortunately the Greens seemed to concentrate their energies more on Washington politics and less on local issues. Because of this they have lost ground.

Also, I have no problems with Cynthia McKinney. I think she's a fine woman but a bit controversial to represent your party as a presidential candidate. I questioned the Green's inability to come up with a candidate with a good work and environmental record that could represent the party without reguard to national recognition.

But this is a liberal party and it always has been. The philosophy on gay rights has not changed.

[1bad65]

To start with Gore and Kerry(especially Gore) are no where near anything called "Liberal". I would call Kerry a middle of the road candidate and would say that Gore leans towards the right.

Luk Hop,

You now see I was correct.

[1bad65]

"The Obama administration told a federal court late Friday it will maintain the Bush administration's position that battlefield detainees held without charges by the United States in Afghanistan are not entitled to constitutional rights to challenge their detention."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/20/afghan.detainees/index.html

So, is he a war criminal like you allege Bush was?

[Faruq]

Friday's Sun Times had a story on the front cover saying that the democrats still have not paid for Obama's victory celebration in Grant Park. The tab was like 1.78 million dollars if I remember correctly. How much change can he bring the nation if he can't even pay his bills? lol

[BoulderDawg]

Friday's Sun Times had a story on the front cover saying that the democrats still have not paid for Obama's victory celebration in Grant Park. The tab was like 1.78 million dollars if I remember correctly. How much change can he bring the nation if he can't even pay his bills? lol

I haven't a clue as to whether or not the bill has been paid. However my main concern would be "what cost 1.78 million". I would like to see the itemized bill on this. The only thing I could really see that would cost money is extra security and clean up.......but not almost 2 mill.

I've just read an article about this and it appears the democrats are still going through the bills........I don't blame them. According to the article one guy got $19,500 for that one night's work. They also said they paid one million for police protection...I don't believe that for a second.

No, If I were the democrats I would do an audit for that night and give the city a fair amount and tell them to sue for the rest if they so desire.

This reminds me of the 19K that Seattle charged to clean up Jeff Monson's spray paint.

[uki]

truly it's change we can believe in. :rolleyes:

obama and the war on terror... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/us/politics/18policy.html?_r=1&ref=us

obama and tax on the wealthy... http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE51K1ZF20090221

obama on torture... http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5idbEF5yN4AEjDAz_xFr1EuoNxd3Q

obama and the case of missing white house emails... http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090221/D96G5E9G0.html

obama on government secrecy... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/6274227.html

oh and i'd like to point out again that obama and bush are related. :)

[1bad65]

I would like to see the itemized bill on this.

You believe Bush is a war criminal, yet you want an "itemized bill" showing that Obama can't pay his bills. You're a partisan hack, just admit it.


They also said they paid one million for police protection...I don't believe that for a second.


This reminds me of the 19K that Seattle charged to clean up Jeff Monson's spray paint.

So, which one is it? :confused:


No, If I were the democrats I would do an audit for that night and give the city a fair amount and tell them to sue for the rest if they so desire.

That's the way to stand up for the American taxpayer! :rolleyes: Maybe Bush should have just stiffed all the people/companies involved in the war so hacks like you couldn't complain about the cost. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Friday's Sun Times had a story on the front cover saying that the democrats still have not paid for Obama's victory celebration in Grant Park. The tab was like 1.78 million dollars if I remember correctly. How much change can he bring the nation if he can't even pay his bills? lol

The Sun Times must be a 'Neo blog'. ;)

[Exadon]

You believe Bush is a war criminal, yet you want an "itemized bill" showing that Obama can't pay his bills. You're a partisan hack, just admit it.


Many people believe Bush is a war criminal. We should not have even gone to war. Last I checked the Constitution gives the war power to Congress.

irregardless (haha using the word to lighten the mood, and yes I know the word is bogus)

Saying Bush is a war criminal... and than giving facts (that he believes to be true) hardly makes him a "partisan hack". I don't know all the details of the said bill...but I do no that breaking the Constitution and going to war on your own...is a much bigger deal than not paying a bill for a party.

From all that I read in the previous post...it looks to me that you keep calling him a hack or other names when he has a different point of view or opinion.

I don't think that helps your point

Also , We gave Bush how many years in the office?

I find it funny that republicans are already trying to state how awful he is.

[1bad65]

Many people believe Bush is a war criminal. We should not have even gone to war. Last I checked the Constitution gives the war power to Congress.

And the President is the Commander-in-Chief. You do know that Congress approved the war, right? Even Obama's Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, voted in favor of the war.


From all that I read in the previous post...it looks to me that you keep calling him a hack or other names when he has a different point of view or opinion.

You must not have seen his history. If anyone backs up their asssertions with sources, he automatically calls that source a "Neo blog", regardless who the source is. He even referred to CNN.com as a "Neo blog". :rolleyes:


Also , as shown above with many sources, uki has pointed out many changes that Obama has made already. We gave Bush how many years in the office?

I find it funny that republicans are already trying to state how awful he is.

Change for change's sake is often a recipe for disaster.

I myself am unhappy that he lied during the campaign. He promised no lobbyists in his Cabinet, he lied. He promised a clean Cabinet, he lied. He lied to the human rights groups by not reversing Bush policies on detainees. He is hedging on closing Gitmo. He has no exit strategy for Iraq, despite that being one of his major campaign platforms.

And if you think the 'stimulus' package was not a horrible idea, get ready to see what it brings. Mark my words, the national debt will be higher in 4 years than it was when Bush left office.

[Exadon]

Mark my words, the national debt will be higher in 4 years than it was when Bush left office.


Only time can tell :). You words have been marked. Let us wait to find out what happens

[1bad65]

I noticed you edited your post to take out your reference to Uki's post.

Obviously his point was that Obama is NOT implementing the 'Change' he promised. You must have missed that initially.

[Exadon]

I noticed you edited your post to take out your reference to Uki's post.

Obviously his point was that Obama is NOT implementing the 'Change' he promised. You must have missed that at first.

I did, this is why I changed it. I should have clicked his links before I spoke ;)

I admit to it

[Drake]

Who can you trust when everyone's a crook?

[BoulderDawg]

Bad, the above post is a good example of why someone started a thread questioning sanity!

What does Bush being a war criminal have anything to do with an Obama victory rally in Chicago? That's probably the most illogical connection that you have made yet.....Boulderdawg scratches head!:D

Seond point: Chicago charges Obama an outragous amount for police protection, Seattle charges Monson an outragous amount to clean up a little paint....where's the contradiction you mentioned?

Should Bush have stiffed private companies (Like Cheney's former corporation who's name escapes me at the present)? No, but he should not have paid any invoice without a complete audit of the cost. That's crazy. That would be like me getting a tune up on my car and paying a bill for $8,000 without questioning it. This is what the American goverment is doing. I guess the people in government(Local munis in Seattle and Chicago) feel that because private company stick it to the government than it's okay for then to do the same thing.

Finally, the article I read mentioned something about Mayor Dailey saying the Obama campaign would pay for the rally. I don't think Mayor Dailey speaks for the Obama campaign. The Constitution gives us the right to peaceble assembly. It doesn't say we have to pay for that right. However I see no problem with a modest fee to rent the park for the night.

How many people were in downtown Chicago on that night having a good time? Was it a 100K? I'm sure the local businesses in the downtown area were not complaining in the least. The city of Chicago benefitted from this.

[BoulderDawg]

You must not have seen his history. If anyone backs up their asssertions with sources, he automatically calls that source a "Neo blog", regardless who the source is. He even referred to CNN.com as a "Neo blog". :rolleyes:

Hmmmmm......I would like a link to that post!:D

Truth is Bad will take a fact or a news story(Such as something that might be posted on CNN) then make the wildest connections or assumptions about it. When I call him on it and ask which neo blog he made his assumptions from he comes back with the origianl story and then tells me I said CNN was a Neo blog...I've never called CNN a neo blog.

[uki]

I've never called CNN a neo blog.i'd call it a disinformation blog.

[SharkyT]

"The Obama administration told a federal court late Friday it will maintain the Bush administration's position that battlefield detainees held without charges by the United States in Afghanistan are not entitled to constitutional rights to challenge their detention."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/20/afghan.detainees/index.html

So, is he a war criminal like you allege Bush was?

I believe the war crimes charges are based on Bush'and Cheney's deception of Iraq having WMD. Bush, himself and recently Ari , his WH spokesman, admitted there was no evidence Iraq ever had WMD. Thus 4,000 Americans had died for this fairy tale

[SharkyT]

Bad, the above post is a good example of why someone started a thread questioning sanity!

What does Bush being a war criminal have anything to do with an Obama victory rally in Chicago? That's probably the most illogical connection that you have made yet.....Boulderdawg scratches head!:D

Seond point: Chicago charges Obama an outragous amount for police protection, Seattle charges Monson an outragous amount to clean up a little paint....where's the contradiction you mentioned?

Should Bush have stiffed private companies (Like Cheney's former corporation who's name escapes me at the present)? No, but he should not have paid any invoice without a complete audit of the cost. That's crazy. That would be like me getting a tune up on my car and paying a bill for $8,000 without questioning it. This is what the American goverment is doing. I guess the people in government(Local munis in Seattle and Chicago) feel that because private company stick it to the government than it's okay for then to do the same thing.

Finally, the article I read mentioned something about Mayor Dailey saying the Obama campaign would pay for the rally. I don't think Mayor Dailey speaks for the Obama campaign. The Constitution gives us the right to peaceble assembly. It doesn't say we have to pay for that right. However I see no problem with a modest fee to rent the park for the night.

How many people were in downtown Chicago on that night having a good time? Was it a 100K? I'm sure the local businesses in the downtown area were not complaining in the least. The city of Chicago benefitted from this.

Totally agree

[SharkyT]

Can either of you knuckleheads point out where I mention God in my argument?
You are right. You didnt mention God, however you question and attack the morality of the dems and Obama, however the immorality of the Republicans is totally ignored by you. Here are some reminders of immorality of the Republicans: (GOP:Gross Old Perverts)

Give me a tax cheat anytime over these esteemed leaders in the Republican Party

* Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.
* Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.
* Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.
* Republican Congressman Mark Foley abruptly resigned from Congress after "sexually explicit" emails surfaced showing him flirting with a 16-year old boy.
* Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.
* Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres confessed to molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting sex from an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.
* Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
* Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
* Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.
* Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano pleaded guilty to fondling a 14-year-old girl.
* Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
* Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.
* Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Tom Adams was arrested for distributing child pornography over the internet.
* Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls.
* Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.
* Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.
* Republican Committeeman John R. Curtin was convicted of molesting an underage teenage boy and sentenced to serve six to 18 months in prison.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.
* Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader pleaded guilty to performing a sexual act on an 11-year old girl he murdered.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.
* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.
* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
* Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer was sentenced to six years in prison for molesting two 8-year old girls, one of whom appeared in an anti-Gore television commercial.
* Republican fundraiser Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos
* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
* Republican campaign chairman Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child and was arrested again five years later on the same charge.
* Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.
* Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.
* Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer.
* Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.
* Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.
* Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.
* Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.
* Republican Congressman Mark Foley abruptly resigned from Congress after "sexually explicit" emails surfaced showing him flirting with a 16-year old boy.
* Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.
* Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres confessed to molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting sex from an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.
* Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
* Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
* Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.
* Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano pleaded guilty to fondling a 14-year-old girl.
* Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
* Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.
* Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Tom Adams was arrested for distributing child pornography over the internet.
* Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls
Now, you know why Republicans are against abortion...

[Luk Hop]

You are right. You didnt mention God, however you question and attack the morality of the dems and Obama, however the immorality of the Republicans is totally ignored by you. Here are some reminders of immorality of the Republicans: (GOP:Gross Old Perverts)

Give me a tax cheat anytime over these esteemed leaders in the Republican Party

* Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.
* Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.
* Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.
* Republican Congressman Mark Foley abruptly resigned from Congress after "sexually explicit" emails surfaced showing him flirting with a 16-year old boy.
* Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.
* Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres confessed to molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting sex from an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.
* Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
* Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
* Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.
* Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano pleaded guilty to fondling a 14-year-old girl.
* Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
* Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.
* Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Tom Adams was arrested for distributing child pornography over the internet.
* Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls.
* Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.
* Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.
* Republican Committeeman John R. Curtin was convicted of molesting an underage teenage boy and sentenced to serve six to 18 months in prison.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.
* Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader pleaded guilty to performing a sexual act on an 11-year old girl he murdered.
* Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.
* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.
* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
* Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer was sentenced to six years in prison for molesting two 8-year old girls, one of whom appeared in an anti-Gore television commercial.
* Republican fundraiser Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos
* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
* Republican campaign chairman Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child and was arrested again five years later on the same charge.
* Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.
* Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.
* Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer.
* Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.
* Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.
* Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.
* Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.
* Republican Congressman Mark Foley abruptly resigned from Congress after "sexually explicit" emails surfaced showing him flirting with a 16-year old boy.
* Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.
* Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres confessed to molesting a 13-year old girl.
* Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting sex from an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.
* Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
* Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
* Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.
* Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano pleaded guilty to fondling a 14-year-old girl.
* Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
* Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.
* Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
* Republican Mayor Tom Adams was arrested for distributing child pornography over the internet.
* Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls
Now, you know why Republicans are against abortion...

:eek:

Wow .

[uki]

:eek:

Wow .and thats just the tip of the iceberg. :)

[Drake]

Child sex parties at the White House during the 80s? Ok, c'mon... source.

[SharkyT]

Child sex parties at the White House during the 80s? Ok, c'mon... source.

Dude,
It is not the X-files or unsolved mysteries, just google it. it is well known fact

[uki]

Child sex parties at the White House during the 80s? Ok, c'mon... source.hahahaha!!! so exactly what kind of work do you do for INTEL? :p

[AJM]

Disinformation.

[Drake]

Har har har! :eek: :D :cool:

Actually, Army intel doesn't handle anything internal. That's the work of other agencies. We're more focused on actual militant and foreign groups/governments, and at my level, I'm more concerned about smaller enemy activities. But seriously, I've never heard of that, and why isn't it plastered all over the news?

[SharkyT]

Disinformation.

Disinformation, really.
Here John McCain's campaign manager. John McCain pals around with . Guess what he is being charged with.

http://coloradoindependent.com/20907/pueblo-manager-for-mccain-campaign-arrested-on-molestation-charges

[Hardwork108]

and why isn't it plastered all over the news?

It isn't plastered all over the news because unfortunately the press is controlled and for the same reason the following video is not plastered all over the news either:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8438833120507357139

It is a shame that we live in a society when the press can be silenced at will by those who are in power.

[BoulderDawg]

I've googled a few of those names and in all cases there were grains of truth in every accusation. The problem with something like this is it's just not right. I don't know where this original list came from but I pretty safe in saying that no one who is a true liberal would have anything to do with it.

I've seen similar list for democrats and find those disgusting also. The only difference is that while liberals would find a list like this shocking and refuse to use it most conservatives embrace stuff like this.

[Drake]

Disinformation, really.
Here John McCain's campaign manager. John McCain pals around with . Guess what he is being charged with.

http://coloradoindependent.com/20907/pueblo-manager-for-mccain-campaign-arrested-on-molestation-charges

"Bartleson listed his occupation as “political consultant” at the Pueblo County Jail, the Chieftain reported, but state Republican groups were quick to distance themselves from him. Bartleson indeed ran the McCain office in Pueblo and directed the Republican nominee’s southern Colorado campaign, the chairman of the Pueblo County Republican Party told Pankratz, but doesn’t hold an official party position and had only attended a few GOP meetings. The state Republican Party told Pankratz they had had “no contact” with Bartleson."

He wasn't McCain's campaign manager. Who's spreading misinformation now?

[SharkyT]

"Bartleson listed his occupation as “political consultant” at the Pueblo County Jail, the Chieftain reported, but state Republican groups were quick to distance themselves from him. Bartleson indeed ran the McCain office in Pueblo and directed the Republican nominee’s southern Colorado campaign, the chairman of the Pueblo County Republican Party told Pankratz, but doesn’t hold an official party position and had only attended a few GOP meetings. The state Republican Party told Pankratz they had had “no contact” with Bartleson."

He wasn't McCain's campaign manager. Who's spreading misinformation now?

He was the manager of Pueblo's office of the McCain Campaign.Now I know what the problems are here. Dude, first of all,do you really think a presidential campaign( in all 50 states) with thousand of campaign staff members only had one campaign manager. It doesnt. Second, read the article again. Who spreading misinformation now? Yeah, you are right ..it's me and the mainstream media. You caught us. We set up Bartleson up to. Yeah, we placed little boys around him. It wasnt his fault. He was totally innocent. I got a headache. I am leaving this post.

[Drake]

He was the manager of Pueblo's office of the McCain Campaign.Now I know what the problems are here. Dude, first of all,do you really think a presidential campaign( in all 50 states) with thousand of campaign staff members only had one campaign manager. It doesnt. Second, read the article again. Who spreading misinformation now? Yeah, you are right ..it's me and the mainstream media. You caught us. We set up Bartleson up to. Yeah, we placed little boys around him. It wasnt his fault. He was totally innocent. I got a headache. I am leaving this post.

That isn't what I said... but hey... laytah! :cool:

[BoulderDawg]

He was the manager of Pueblo's office of the McCain Campaign.Now I know what the problems are here. Dude, first of all,do you really think a presidential campaign( in all 50 states) with thousand of campaign staff members only had one campaign manager. It doesnt. Second, read the article again. Who spreading misinformation now? Yeah, you are right ..it's me and the mainstream media. You caught us. We set up Bartleson up to. Yeah, we placed little boys around him. It wasnt his fault. He was totally innocent. I got a headache. I am leaving this post.

Just to be fair here, this guy was a office manager not a campaign manager......I'm guessing here all he did was rent space in a small store front for three months and him and the volunteers he managed passed out campaign material. That's probably the only "managing" he did.

My guess is he had given a moderate amount of money to the party, lived in the community for a good amount of time and was the only one who wanted the job. If it came down to a presidential campaign doing a hardcore background check for people at this level then no one would work for them.

[1bad65]

Hmmmmm......I would like a link to that post!:D

Easy enough. The hard part will be to see you actually admit you were wrong in denying you said it.

The thread was locked, so here is the link to it:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52564&highlight=cnn.com&page=21

In Post #314 I quote a news story and source CNN.com:


Whatever. Yet again, I'll source my allegations.

"Bank of America says the company has walked away and ignored its obligation to the workers. But union leaders argue that since the bank received $25 billion in taxpayer funds as part of the U.S. Treasury's efforts to stabilize the financial markets, it should step in where the company has failed.

These people would be out on the street three weeks before Christmas with nothing," national union representative Mark Meinster said. "But what's happened here is workers have decided to stand up and say no, enough is enough. You got that big bailout -- you can make sure we get the money we're owed and say, 'no, enough is enough.' "

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/08/chi...est/index.html

And I never said there were being forced, I said IF they are forced. Try reading before you spout off.

Care to show ONE example where I 'invented facts'?

Your reply, Post #323:


Really? Someone just asked you for a source and you never gave it. In any case I don't know about the rest of the people here but I'm not really interested in "Fill in the blank" radical neo blog source.

In any case you do use facts however you have brought cause and effect to a new height. The facts aren't relative in 90% or your conclusions.

[1bad65]

Am I gonna have to each search Google and list every Democrat who is ALLEGED to have done crimes? :rolleyes: Just a few:

Ted Kennedy let a woman drown and walked. Mel Reynolds was convicted of multiple sex crimes against children, Bill Clinton commuted one of his sentences. Barney Frank had a male prostition ring operating out of his home and was never charged because he claimed he had no idea what was going on. :eek:

Of all those Republicans you mentioned, did anyone of them receive a pardon or commutation by a Republican President?

[1bad65]

You are right. You didnt mention God, however you question and attack the morality of the dems and Obama, however the immorality of the Republicans is totally ignored by you. Here are some reminders of immorality of the Republicans: (GOP:Gross Old Perverts)

Give me a tax cheat anytime over these esteemed leaders in the Republican Party

Obama made the promise of a clean Cabinet. He promised "Change". Bush didn't. Clinton did too, and his Cabinet was the most indicted Administration in US history, and that's counting Nixon. ;)

I would hardly call that list 'Leaders'. Alot weren't even candidates. :rolleyes: Alot of those mentioned did not say "convicted" either. Can I see the cource on that list?

FYI, Thurmond was not a pedophile. While he did have sex with a young girl, she was over the age of consent in the state the act occured in. So he was not a pedophile.

[uki]

these are claimed to be declassified MK ultra documentations... http://michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm

enjoy your experience. :)

[BoulderDawg]

Easy enough. The hard part will be to see you actually admit you were wrong in denying you said it.

The thread was locked, so here is the link to it:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52564&highlight=cnn.com&page=21

In Post #314 I quote a news story and source CNN.com:
Your reply, Post #323:

Just for the record....go back and take another look at that thread. I was not responding to post #314. I was responding to post #321 which was:

"I justify my statements with sources and facts. That's not a good thing? Is that ludicrous?

I enjoy debate too, I just get upset when I'm misquoted or accused of doing something or saying something I did not. As I'm actually quite anal about citing sources, I get upset when I'm accused of making up facts and not quoting sources."

I even quoted you in my post #323:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad65
"I justify my statements with sources and facts."

However you just decided to leave that out...:D This is getting too easy Bad!

[SharkyT]

Am I gonna have to each search Google and list every Democrat who is ALLEGED to have done crimes? :rolleyes: Just a few:

Ted Kennedy let a woman drown and walked. Mel Reynolds was convicted of multiple sex crimes against children, Bill Clinton commuted one of his sentences. Barney Frank had a male prostition ring operating out of his home and was never charged because he claimed he had no idea what was going on. :eek:

Of all those Republicans you mentioned, did anyone of them receive a pardon or commutation by a Republican President?

Please do a google search and list such Dems. I believe perverts and pedophiles of either party should be listed. I am sure the the Grand Ole Perverts have a considerable margin. Isnt the GOP " the party of family values". Thier propensity for commiting child molestation...makes one consider if they claim it as a unrecognized family value.
Guess since a republican president had not pardoned thier child molesters...it puts it on a moral high ground.

[BoulderDawg]

Watched a little of the Oscars tonight.....

I was very proud to see many of my liberal brothers and sisters represent! Especially Sean Penn who we can all be proud of!

[SharkyT]

Just to be fair here, this guy was a office manager not a campaign manager......I'm guessing here all he did was rent space in a small store front for three months and him and the volunteers he managed passed out campaign material. That's probably the only "managing" he did.

My guess is he had given a moderate amount of money to the party, lived in the community for a good amount of time and was the only one who wanted the job. If it came down to a presidential campaign doing a hardcore background check for people at this level then no one would work for them.

I went back to check.. Bartleson was McCain campaign manager as listed in many newspaper articles. Some articles listed him as "campaign office manager,etc". No article headline say" John McCain's political consultant was arrested for child molestation". Do the internet check.We could debate back and forth if that means he was the office manager in a total generic meaning . To act like he was some guy who just passed out campaign literature, made the morning coffee at the McCain campaign office, kept track how many bic pens and paper clips were needed, thus his arrest became national news? To be polite: Cmon dude. Do you really believe that:rolleyes:?Plus, what is the role of a campaign manager: either paid or volunteer, whose role is to coordinate the campaign's operations such as fundraising, advertising, polling, getting out the vote, and other activities supporting the effort. Funny how Bartleson listed he was only" political consultant" at the Pueblo jail . The Colorado Independent emphasized that. Part of damage control and republicans distancing themselves from this incident

[SharkyT]

Obama made the promise of a clean Cabinet. He promised "Change". Bush didn't. Clinton did too, and his Cabinet was the most indicted Administration in US history, and that's counting Nixon. ;)

I would hardly call that list 'Leaders'. Alot weren't even candidates. :rolleyes: Alot of those mentioned did not say "convicted" either. Can I see the cource on that list?

FYI, Thurmond was not a pedophile. While he did have sex with a young girl, she was over the age of consent in the state the act occured in. So he was not a pedophile.

Dude, the list is and had been on the internet. It is not the holy grail ,it all over the internet. You can check them all on the internet. The people on the list on members of the Republican party, at different levels.
Thurman had a affair with a 15 year old young black girl named Carrie Butler who worked as maid in his family's home. Delivered the child in poverty at the age of 16, Carrie Butler died in poverty at the age of 38. I guess if a 22 year old man ( Thurman) having sex with a poor 15 year old girl who dependent on your ( Strum's) family for her salary is not ****ed up, I dont know what is??But that is my moral compass. I believe you are right about the age of consent , but it is still wrong. Same man who would become a staunch supporter of segregation and racism. A Pervert and hypocrite.

[BoulderDawg]

regardless of the responsibility this guy had, his position was at such a low level the background search required to uncover his past would not be warrented or reasonable.

Now you have got Bad started. I'm sure he's concocting a thread as we speak with about a 100 names on it.........

Things like this sink to a level that most people I know and respect find reprehensible.

[SharkyT]

BoulderDawg
You probably right...I am becoming bored with talk of Grand Ole Perverts . I brought it up to address the hypocrisy of the Republican's religious right ( God's party). Ibad needs to worry about Texas becoming blue, or at least a swing state in 2012 according to political analysts According to Gallup, there are only five states that now have a statistically significant majorities of Republicans. They are Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska and Nebraska.In contrast, there are now 35 states that are majority Democratic with 10 states up for grabs. We should value Ibad's presence here as one would with a dying breed ( The Republicans)

Spend enough time talking politics. You guys take it easy.

[Drake]

Why don't you at least ATTEMPT to hold an adult conversation and not make up funny names for the organization you are trying to discredit. It's right up there with the Pres. Obama mockery. It's childish and makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously.

Let's review a few of your last posts, where instead of facts you say things along the lines of "oh, I'm pretty sure the [insert mockery] are worse than [insert my favorite organization in the whole wide world].

Nothing worse than someone who claims to want fair and unbiased, yet does so themselves. The absolute worst.

[Kansuke]

Watched a little of the Oscars tonight.....

I was very proud to see many of my liberal brothers and sisters represent! Especially Sean Penn who we can all be proud of!



Would you have been proud of him if he had done a film about an African American and was dressed up in blackface?

[Drake]

Did someone actually suggest being proud of Sean Penn? He's a notorious wife-beater and all around violent guy. I remember hearing about his antics back in the 80s.

"Penn was supposedly engaged to actress Elizabeth McGovern, his co-star in 1984's Racing with the Moon, after which he dated Susan Sarandon. Penn's personal life began to attract media attention when he married pop star Madonna in 1985. The relationship was marred by violent outbursts against the press, including one incident for which he was arrested for violently beating a photographer.[citation needed] It is also suggested that when Penn discovered the paparazzo in his hotel room, he hung him by his ankles from the ninth-floor balcony.[9] Madonna dedicated her third studio album, True Blue to Penn, referring to him in the liner notes as "the coolest guy in the universe". Later in the marriage, Penn was charged with felony domestic assault, a charge for which he pleaded to a misdemeanor. Penn and Madonna divorced in 1989."

Nice choice of role models...

[uki]

Did someone actually suggest being proud of Sean Penn? He's a notorious wife-beater and all around violent guy. I remember hearing about his antics back in the 80s.dwelling in the past doesn't help you in the future... let me guess, you never did anything remotely wrong when you were younger... :rolleyes:

Nice choice of role models...he was awesome in mystic river. he's a man whose no afraid to be politically incorrect... if someone was in my hotel room or snapping pictures at me and my family all the time, i'd punch them out too. :)

besides, it's not like women are little goody two shoes, hell my girlfriend has a hell of a back-hand and has smashed me in the head with a beer bottle before. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember when Penn was "touring" the devastation left by Katrina, how he was there to "see and to help" the people of New Orleans, and how his boat was filled with news people and media, so full that they couldn't help anyone !
LMAO !!!

[Kansuke]

dwelling in the past doesn't help you in the future... let me guess, you never did anything remotely wrong when you were younger... :rolleyes:


LOL! How gracious! I'll just bet that everyone gets the benefit of that doubt from you, no matter what their political leaning.

[1bad65]

Easy enough. The hard part will be to see you actually admit you were wrong in denying you said it.


Just for the record....go back and take another look at that thread. I was not responding to post #314.

See, I told ya so.

[1bad65]

Please do a google search and list such Dems.

I'm still waiting on your source for that list of Republicans.

[1bad65]

Now you have got Bad started. I'm sure he's concocting a thread as we speak with about a 100 names on it.........

Things like this sink to a level that most people I know and respect find reprehensible.

I agree with you there.

Again, his list has many ALLEGED offenders. Many were not convicted. It also had many names who not even elected officials too.

If we are gonna dig that deep, I could mention John Wayne Gacy too. He was a precinct captain for the Democrats. He was actually photographed with First Lady Rosalynn Carter, and she autographed the picture. Gacy was later conviced of the rape and murder of 33 young men and boys.

[1bad65]

I remember when Penn was "touring" the devastation left by Katrina, how he was there to "see and to help" the people of New Orleans, and how his boat was filled with news people and media, so full that they couldn't help anyone !
LMAO !!!

But he CARED! That's all that matters. The results he achieved are moot.

[uki]

Again, his list has many ALLEGED offenders. Many were not convicted. It also had many names who not even elected officials too.just remember alot of judges and other elected officials are also pedophiles...


Gacy was later conviced of the rape and murder of 33 young men and boys.that magical freemasonry, esoteric knowledge number.


LOL! How gracious! I'll just bet that everyone gets the benefit of that doubt from you, no matter what their political leaning.i am not a registered voter, i never have voted, and i never will... i don't believe in politics, i don't care about politics(meaning whose who) and i sure as heck don't lose sleep over what the dinks in washington are doing... but i am a voice for the people who have not yet found their own voice... i like to say and do things that others only wish they could say or do. power to the people.

i pay my taxes, i hardly ever file for a return, and the federal gov can kiss my white arse. :)

[1bad65]

i hardly ever file for a return,

Hey, you and Marion Barry have something in common! ;)

[1bad65]

i pay my taxes,

There goes any hope of you getting a Cabinet post in the Obama Administration.

[David Jamieson]

just remember alot of judges and other elected officials are also pedophiles...

that magical freemasonry, esoteric knowledge number.

i am not a registered voter, i never have voted, and i never will... i don't believe in politics, i don't care about politics(meaning whose who) and i sure as heck don't lose sleep over what the dinks in washington are doing... but i am a voice for the people who have not yet found their own voice... i like to say and do things that others only wish they could say or do. power to the people.

i pay my taxes, i hardly ever file for a return, and the federal gov can kiss my white arse. :)

what lots of judges? please do drop some names, people would like to see that list of pedophile judges and it's only fair they should know and that you should supply them with taht knowledge.

actually, sometimes a number is just a number and has little to do with anything other than how many men the crazy clown killed.

You should try just moving to another country that you don't hate so much, maybe try it out elsewhere? Seriously, if you hate america so much why do you stay?

[uki]

there goes any hope of you getting a cabinet post in the obama administration.lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kansuke]

i am not a registered voter, i never have voted, and i never will...





Then do everyone a favor and keep your static in the background where it belongs, because YOU HAVE NO SAY AND NOTHING YOU THINK OR WRITE OR ***** ABOUT MATTERS AT ALL. You are irrelevant and don't deserve to be listened to much less taken seriously. Shut up and move to the back of the herd and wait to be told where to go and what to do.


What a disgrace.

[uki]

what lots of judges? please do drop some names, people would like to see that list of pedophile judges and it's only fair they should know and that you should supply them with taht knowledge.do your own homework bud.

You should try just moving to another country that you don't hate so much, maybe try it out elsewhere? Seriously, if you hate america so much why do you stay?are you kidding me?? i love this country, i just hate the government. :D

i've been around and i like other countries too, but i also hate their governments aswell... :p

[uki]

Then do everyone a favor and keep your static in the background where it belongs, because YOU HAVE NO SAY AND NOTHING YOU THINK OR WRITE OR ***** ABOUT MATTERS AT ALL. You are irrelevant and don't deserve to be listened to much less taken seriously. Shut up and move to the back of the herd and wait to be told where to go and what to do.


What a disgrace.STFU. i can say whatever i so desire about anything i want to... don't forget it buddy. that line of BS is so frigg'in lame... come up with a new line already... :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

i love this country, i just hate the government. :



You clearly understand niether.

[Kansuke]

bzzzz...bzzzz...bzzzzzz.......





Background noise from a non-person. :rolleyes:

[uki]

You clearly understand niether.i don't need to. :)

[Kansuke]

i don't need to. :)





Congratulations on your ignorance. Now run along, you don't matter.

[SharkyT]

I'm still waiting on your source for that list of Republicans.

You can find the list and investigate every name. As I told you before , it is all over the internet. Follow the trail of each name (first, put on oversize trenchcoat, smoke a cigar, scratch your head : you know like Columbo.)I And then try the internet.f you dont have google , goddamit ask jeeves. I am not sitting waiting for for your dems list:rolleyes:. I am sure there dems child molesters. But when your party's ideological ideas includes family values and your party members are overwhelming being charge with child molestation, you got agree something f''''up. But that is my moral compass.
I know you will research each name, you will rationalize for every person there is a democratic conspiracy behind it. Lee Harvey,I want to tell you it is true.

[uki]

Congratulations on your ignorance. Now run along, you don't matter.do you really think what you say matters to me either? nope... it doesn't. :)

cattle do what they are told and go where they are made to... get back to the polls you lummox, because thats what your supposed to do. :p

[Kansuke]

do you really think what you say matters to me either? nope... it doesn't. :)

Clearly nothing matters to you just as you matter to no one or nothing.


cattle do what they are told and go where they are made to...


That is exactly your situation as the result of your ignorance and loser attitude.

[uki]

Clearly nothing matters to you just as you matter to no one or nothing.yet you seem to get all worked up over it all. :p


That is exactly your situation as the result of your ignorance and loser attitude.yeah my loser attitude... we own a house, property, i have over 1000 square feet of flagstone training patio that i created myself, 3 kids, a wonderful girlfriend... i have relatives in dublin, maui, and soon australia... i have travelled extensively in my youth, walked 1000 miles in 3 months, and a variety of other experiences that people simply dream about doing in their lifetime... yeah, a loser attitude alright. keep it coming, you're on a roll yo... :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

Did I ask for your biography, non-person? This isn't a dating site. Now go out to your flagstone patio and wait to be told what to do like a good dog.

[uki]

Did I ask for your biography, non-person? This isn't a dating site. Now go out to your flagstone patio and wait to be told what to do like a good dog.awwwww... don't cry little guy. your life will get better... obamas in office!!!

now stop polluting my thread with your immature behaviour...

[Kansuke]

awwwww... bzzz....bzzzz....bzzzz...

..................................

Sit! Stay!!!!

[SharkyT]

Why don't you at least ATTEMPT to hold an adult conversation and not make up funny names for the organization you are trying to discredit. It's right up there with the Pres. Obama mockery. It's childish and makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously.

Let's review a few of your last posts, where instead of facts you say things along the lines of "oh, I'm pretty sure the [insert mockery] are worse than [insert my favorite organization in the whole wide world].

Nothing worse than someone who claims to want fair and unbiased, yet does so themselves. The absolute worst.
Ok Drake, this is my last post here , starting to feel like a parrot.
If I offend you over the funny names for the Gop, I can only say stop your effing crying like someone knocked over the family's lemonstand. This aint Mayberry. My point was pretty consistent , if your party claim to hold the position of being so righteouscompared to others and represent itself as party of family values. Yet , members who hold positions in that party are committing acts against kids. That is not part of family values, my friend. Did I say the Dems were innocent.No. Whether you take me serious, who gives a ****. This is the internet, most of us talking, laughing, and bull****ting. Just like average joes. Fair and balance? Another adolescent quality, endearing if you are Michael Jackson. Life aint fair. I never say I was fair and balance. Do you think I would have post the list if I was a republican. Only Fox news claim to be fair and balance ( kinda ****up:rolleyes:).
ps. I have repubs friends who constantly joke about CNN , calling it Clinton News Network, or Communist New Network. I laughed it off. I know it not safe having repubs as friends, I keep my young nieces and nephews away when they are over. Considering keeping the dog locked up also

[Drake]

Posting on a martial arts website does not make you the voice of the people.

And what I may have done when I was younger (which I didn't), doesn't make Sean Penn any less of a wife-beater and abuser.

[Drake]

Ok Drake, this is my last post here , starting to feel like a parrot.
If I offend you over the funny names for the Gop, I can only say stop your effing crying and grow up. This aint Mayberry. My point was pretty consistent , if your party claim to hold the position of being so righteouscompared to others and represent itself as party of family values. Yet , members who hold positions in that party are committing acts against kids. That is not part of family values, my friend. Did I say the Dems were innocent.No. Whether you take me serious, who gives a ****. This is the internet, most of us talking, laughing, and bull****ting. Just like average joes. Fair and balance? Another adolescent quality, endearing if you are Michael Jackson. Life aint fair. I never say I was fair and balance. Do you think I would have post the list if I was a republican. Only Fox news claim to be fair and balance ( kinda ****up:rolleyes:).

Now THAT'S backwards. Did you just suggest that I grow up and get used to people using name-calling to make a point? This isn't a playground, either, and calling someone a name doesn't make you credible. I'm not the one who needs to grow up.

But ok, I got it. You are biased, and from now taking you even remotely seriously is a waste of time.

You argue like a 12-year old, and get all ruffled when you are called out on it.

[uki]

Posting on a martial arts website does not make you the voice of the people.you're absolutely right, what was i thinking... no people post on a martial arts website. :rolleyes:


And what I may have done when I was younger (which I didn't), doesn't make Sean Penn any less of a wife-beater and abuser.your point? if everyone is still blinded by the past, there won't be a focus on the present.

you'd be suprised on how many people you can affect through a couple of posts on the internet... people read, people talk. no wonder big gov wants to monitor and censor the internet, it is another swipe at free speech and the propagation of ideas and of course having ideals that go against government corruption is against the law. :)

[uki]

You argue like a 12-year old, and get all ruffled when you are called out on it.no... that is kansuke.

[1bad65]

You can find the list and investigate every name.

Let me guess, you got it on Moveon.org, right? :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bad65
Easy enough. The hard part will be to see you actually admit you were wrong in denying you said it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoulderDawg
Just for the record....go back and take another look at that thread. I was not responding to post #314.

See, I told ya so.


Bad, you are so far in outer space that I don't even know where to begin.

Yeah, you told us so dude.............however whatever that was, I don't have a clue!:D:confused::rolleyes:

[1bad65]

I was close. He got it off the Democrat Underground. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't that site be considered a liberal blog site? :D

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=358x4445

[SharkyT]

Now THAT'S backwards. Did you just suggest that I grow up and get used to people using name-calling to make a point? This isn't a playground, either, and calling someone a name doesn't make you credible. I'm not the one who needs to grow up.

But ok, I got it. You are biased, and from now taking you even remotely seriously is a waste of time.

You argue like a 12-year old, and get all ruffled when you are called out on it.
You ruffled me, :rolleyes:.,
It is funny the name calling of the GOP upset you, rather than ****ed up acts of some of thier leaders. No mention or condemnation of these acts by you( while I have say the **** is wrong no matter what party, everyone should called out on it). Yet, your concern is my funny names for GOP. No concern about the victims. Selfish. Lack of humanity. To put it bluntly " rather ****ed of you".Yeah, I say you need to grow up. Since you questioning whether I said it , I am sure now I am not only suggesting it. So now consider it.You live in the world of teletubbies. How in the world can you called me out on yousomething you applied or assume about me. You say I was fair, I didnt. Every individual is somewhat bias. This is the real world, it aint catholic school . Stop this kumbaya thinking of yours.
If your blind allegiance to anything, which cause you to overlook thier behavior or actions of its members, you are ****ed up and backwards no matter who you are..But that is my opinion.Some of us enjoy living live as lemmings. So who am I to tell them, to ****ing think. If I offend you by this post, then get over it . Goddamit, Kid I am going miss my flight, due posting to you. You have wasted enough of my time. See ya, and stop ****ing bellyaching .

[1bad65]

Bad, you are so far in outer space that I don't even know where to begin.

So says the guy who thinks Gore, Kerry, and Obama are not liberals. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

dwelling in the past doesn't help you in the future... let me guess, you never did anything remotely wrong when you were younger... :rolleyes:

Penn was in his late 20s when he plead guilty to domestic violence. Thurmon was 22 when the child was conceived.

Why does Penn get a pass for his young age, while Thurman does not?

[BoulderDawg]

Penn was in his late 20s when he plead guilty to domestic violence. Thurmon was 22 when the child was conceived.

Why does Penn get a pass for his young age, while Thurman does not?

Where's the pass? He was charged with domestic violence in a court of law and owned up to it. That doesn't sound like a pass to me.

[1bad65]

But when your party's ideological ideas includes family values and your party members are overwhelming being charge with child molestation,

You have some source on those stats?

Do the Democrats not say they are family values as well? Do they campaign by saying pedophilia is ok?

Also, charges are not convictions. Whether you know it or not you are INNOCENT until proven guilty in a court of law.

[1bad65]

Where's the pass? He was charged with domestic violence in a court of law and owned up to it. That doesn't sound like a pass to me.

Uki gave him the pass, not you.

The question is directed at him.

[BoulderDawg]

Uki gave him the pass, not you.

The question is directed at him.


Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any post that Uki made where he condemned Strom Thurmond....and why would he be concerned with something that happened 90 years ago?

So your argument that he gave one person a "pass" while condemning someone else doesn't hold water.

And I highly doubt that Uki gave anyone a pass. How old is Sean these days? 50? should we hold something against him he did 25 years ago?

[1bad65]

Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for cash' scandal

"As scandals from Wall Street to Washington roil the public trust, the justice system in Luzerne County, in the heart of Pennsylvania's struggling coal country, has also fallen prey to corruption. The county has been rocked by a kickback scandal involving two elected judges who essentially jailed kids for cash. Many of the children had appeared before judges without a lawyer.

The nonprofit Juvenile Law Center in Philadelphia said Phillip is one of at least 5,000 children over the past five years who appeared before former Luzerne County President Judge Mark Ciavarella.

Ciavarella pleaded guilty earlier this month to federal criminal charges of fraud and other tax charges, according to the U.S. attorney's office. Former Luzerne County Senior Judge Michael Conahan also pleaded guilty to the same charges. The two secretly received more than $2.6 million, prosecutors said."

Though it was strangely missing in the CNN story, judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan are Democrats. I wonder why CNN left that part out? :rolleyes:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/pennsylvania.corrupt.judges/index.html

[Drake]

You ruffled me, :rolleyes:.,
It is funny the name calling of the GOP upset you, rather than ****ed up acts of some of thier leaders. No mention or condemnation of these acts by you( while I have say the **** is wrong no matter what party, everyone should called out on it). Yet, your concern is my funny names for GOP. No concern about the victims. Selfish. Lack of humanity. To put it bluntly " rather ****ed of you".Yeah, I say you need to grow up. Since you questioning whether I said it , I am sure now I am not only suggesting it. So now consider it.You live in the world of teletubbies. How in the world can you called me out on yousomething you applied or assume about me. You say I was fair, I didnt. Every individual is somewhat bias. This is the real world, it aint catholic school . Stop this kumbaya thinking of yours.
If your blind allegiance to anything, which cause you to overlook thier behavior or actions, it is ****ed up .But that is my opinion.

Blind allegiance to what? I'm not a republican. I'm not even conservative. I'm just calling BS on your allegations. Nice insults, by the way. Very mature, very intelligent.

Personally, I feel that the dems AND republicans are both corrupt, and I haven't seen a worthwhile party out there to oppose them.

And you might learn something by taking an objective view to things, especially politics. Otherwise you run the risk, as you have shown, of not being taken seriously.

[Exadon]

Personally, I feel that the dems AND republicans are both corrupt, and I haven't seen a worthwhile party out there to oppose them.

I agree with that. Everyone I think can agree with that.

[Drake]

1Bad,
I found quite a few comprehensive lists of dem sex offenses, but here's a top ten that I thought was good.

10. Sen. Daniel Inouye. The 82-year-old Hawaii Democrat was accused in the 1990s by numerous women of sexual harassment. Democrats cast doubt on the allegations and the Senate Ethics Committee dropped its investigation.

9. Former Rep. Gus Savage. The Illinois Democrat was accused of fondling a Peace Corps volunteer in 1989 while on a trip to Africa. The House Ethics Committee decided against disciplinary action in 1990.

8. Rep. Barney Frank. The outspoken Massachusetts Democrat hired a male prostitute who ran a prostitution service from Frank’s residence in the 1980s. Only two Democrats in the House of Representatives voted to censure him in 1990.

7. Former Sen. Brock Adams. The late Washington Democrat was forced to stop campaigning after numerous accusations of drugging, assault and rape, the first surfacing in 1988.

6. Former Rep. Fred Richmond. This New York Democrat was arrested in 1978 for soliciting sex from a 16-year-old. He remained in Congress and won re-election—before eventually resigning in 1982 after pleading guilty to tax evasion and drug possession.

5. Former Rep. John Young. The late Texas Democrat increased the salary of a staffer after she gave in to his sexual advances. The congressman won re-election in 1976 but lost two years later.

4. Former Rep. Wayne Hays. The late Ohio Democrat hired an unqualified secretary reportedly for sexual acts. Although he resigned from Congress, the Democratic House leadership stalled in removing him from the Administration Committee in 1976.

3. Former Rep. Gerry Studds. He was censured for sexual relationship with underage male page in 1983. Massachusetts voters returned him to office for six more terms.

2. Former Rep. Mel Reynolds. The Illinois Democrat was convicted of 12 counts of sexual assault with a 16-year-old. President Bill Clinton pardoned him before leaving office.

1. Sen. Teddy Kennedy. The liberal Massachusetts senator testified in defense of nephew accused of rape, invoking his family history to win over the jury in 1991.


Educate the masses.

[1bad65]

1Bad,
I found quite a few comprehensive lists of dem sex offenses, but here's a top ten that I thought was good.

And half of them are from Massachusetts or Illinois. I'm stunned! ;)

The idiots in Massachusetts keep sending Kennedy back, and he friggin killed a woman!

[BoulderDawg]

Though it was strangely missing in the CNN story, judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan are Democrats. I wonder why CNN left that part out? :rolleyes:

I noticed that CNN also didn't mention their religion, their ethic background or a list of social friends........

Hmmmm........must be a plot by all those commie Ho-mos over at CNN!:D

[Drake]

Funny how political affiliation is always brought up when republicans are charged with something, yet when it's a dem, suddenly it's just a minor detail. Friggin' hypocrite.

[uki]

And half of them are from Massachusetts or Illinois. I'm stunned!both states are their historical strongholds...

[SharkyT]

Let me guess, you got it on Moveon.org, right? :rolleyes:
Got it from NAMBLA.

[SharkyT]

Blind allegiance to what? I'm not a republican. I'm not even conservative. I'm just calling BS on your allegations. Nice insults, by the way. Very mature, very intelligent.

Personally, I feel that the dems AND republicans are both corrupt, and I haven't seen a worthwhile party out there to oppose them.

And you might learn something by taking an objective view to things, especially politics. Otherwise you run the risk, as you have shown, of not being taken seriously.

Blind allegiance to anything period. to any group. political or social. Is not good.I dont give a **** if you are a girl scout and other members are threatening old folks to make them buy smores, it is not right. Question thier behavior.
I can tell my last post to you, was a waste. **** it , I tried. I am not Father Flanagan, kid, thus I really dont give a **** what you think. I know it hurts, it is the real world.You are just some guy on the internet. If you are waiting for a "ideal " political party, you are ****ed. I have been to many places ( US, Europe, Africa) and saw so much ****, that when I hear your candyassed polyanna concerns over name calling,( GOP) rather than some kid is being molested and ****up for life . It kinda ticks me off, but it is what is it. That my objectived look at it.
The main point which continues to escapes you,FOR THE LAST TIME ****ING TIME: that you cannot advertise yourself as party of family values( GOP) and religious right , and have your members molesting kids. If you cant see that and find it not at least hypocritical, then you are pretty ****ed up.And that is the real problem. Hey kid, that's my opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, that what makes politics the great equalizer, everyone that argues politics all look bad.

[1bad65]

Funny how political affiliation is always brought up when republicans are charged with something, yet when it's a dem, suddenly it's just a minor detail. Friggin' hypocrite.

Par for the course. Here is a CNN story on Mark Foley. Can you spot the difference? ;)

Florida closes Foley investigation without charges

"The Florida Department of Law Enforcement closed a sex-related criminal probe of former U.S. Rep. Mark Foley on Friday without filing charges, authorities said.

"There is insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges," said Gerald Bailey, commissioner of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

Authorities were investigating whether the Florida Republican, who resigned in September 2006, might have used congressional computers to engage or solicit minors in any illegal activities."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/19/foley.investigation/index.html?iref=newssearch

[1bad65]

Got it from NAMBLA.

Still ducking the question.... :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Sharky,

You do realize the Democrats are the party who always use "The Children" whenever they want to justify a new tax, fee, toll, or spending program, right?

Didn't the Democrats git rid of Joe Camel for "The Children"?

[SharkyT]

Still ducking the question.... :rolleyes:

What is the problem, dude? You are acting like John McCain when it comes to internet .You got dsl. You can look up all the names in a amazing thing on the internet called a ****ing search engine. If you are too ****ing lazy to do it. Say it. It is all over the internet.

[BoulderDawg]

Par for the course. Here is a CNN story on Mark Foley. Can you spot the difference? ;)

Florida closes Foley investigation without charges

"The Florida Department of Law Enforcement closed a sex-related criminal probe of former U.S. Rep. Mark Foley on Friday without filing charges, authorities said.

"There is insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges," said Gerald Bailey, commissioner of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

Authorities were investigating whether the Florida Republican, who resigned in September 2006, might have used congressional computers to engage or solicit minors in any illegal activities."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/19/foley.investigation/index.html?iref=newssearch

Bad, I have a question for you?

I don't know these two judges. Never heard of them before this story. As you said the story did not mention anything about their politicial affiliation.

My question is: Since the article did not mention anything about their politics then how did you find out they were democrats? Maybe through a Neo blog?

[SharkyT]

Sharky,

You do realize the Democrats are the party who always use "The Children" whenever they want to justify a new tax, fee, toll, or spending program, right?

Didn't the Democrats git rid of Joe Camel for "The Children"?

Seriously, is this your argument. " So what we( Repubs) abuse kids, those goddamed DEMs took away Joe the Camel from the kids , those SOBS". Now I know I need another drink before I board this plane
.

[BoulderDawg]

Didn't the Democrats git rid of Joe Camel for "The Children"?


Huh.................................

I've given up trying to make sense of things you say!:D

[1bad65]

What is the problem, dude? You are acting like John McCain when it comes to internet .You got dsl. You can look up all the names in a amazing thing on the internet called a ****ing search engine. If you are too ****ing lazy to do it. Say it. It is all over the internet.

I already found it on the Democrat Underground. I posted that info here, saying that's where you likely found it. Did you miss that post? Did you forget how to read? Or use the search engine? Do you need Al Gore, who invented the Internet, to help you find it?

One more question; which party do you think NAMBLA supports, the one for gay marriage, or the ones against it?

[1bad65]

Seriously, is this your argument. " So what we( Repubs) abuse kids, those goddamed DEMs took away Joe the Camel from the kids , those SOBS". Now I know I need another drink before a board this plane
.

Are you really implyng that ONLY Republicans have been involved in sex crimes against children? :confused:

[1bad65]

Bad, I have a question for you?

I don't know these two judges. Never heard of them before this story. As you said the story did not mention anything about their politicial affiliation.

My question is: Since the article did not mention anything about their politics then how did you find out they were democrats?

Here ya go:

"Amid a crowd of family and friends, Conahan , a Democrat , announced Saturday that he would seek election to the Luzerne County Court of Common Pleas."

"A registered Democrat , Ciavarella has cross-filed on the Democratic and Republican tickets for the May 16 primary. His opponents cross-filed as well."

http://commonsensepoliticalthought.com/?p=4560

And they found it through The Times Leader in Wilkes Barre, PA. Stories published by them on Friday, April 7, 1995 and on Sunday, February 28, 1993



Maybe through a Neo blog?

You're getting close to going back on ignore. Act like an adult, and not a trained parrot, and we can continue the debate.

[SharkyT]

Are you really implyng that ONLY Republicans have been involved in sex crimes against children? :confused:

No. I have repeated this often. I am implying that the GOP cannot advertise themselves as the party of righteous right( God's party) and the family values, if its elected members are molesting kids. If aint right.It is simple. You gotta walk the walk. Some Dems are guilty also. However, when one of Republican party's ideology is based on the family values, something needs to change. Noticed I write less profanities the more I drink ( 2nd long island ice tea)

[Exadon]

Didn't the Democrats git rid of Joe Camel for "The Children"?

Joe Camel looked like a wang to me.

[1bad65]

No. I have repeated this often. I am implying that the GOP cannot advertise themselves as the party of righteous right( God's party) and the family values, if its elected members are molesting kids.

Again I ask, do the Democrats campaign by saying they are against family values? Do they campaign saying sex crimes against kids should be legalized?

FYI, there are ALOT of Republicans who do not like the "religious right" and actually distance themselves from it.

[1bad65]

Joe Camel looked like a wang to me.

He did to alot of people. There is an urban legend he was drawn to look like one.

[Drake]

Sharky, you have regressed to nonsense, insults, and pointless banter. You have failed to make a single cohesive point, and the floundering points you do make are backed up with outrageous, groundless accusations. again, before you refer to someone as "kid", I suggest you look in the mirror and carefully observe your childish behavior. Consider yourself ignored.

[BoulderDawg]

http://commonsensepoliticalthought.com/?p=4560

Total Neo blog........now we know where Bad gets his politics from...at least one of the sources.

[SharkyT]

I already found it on the Democrat Underground. I posted that info here, saying that's where you likely found it. Did you miss that post? Did you forget how to read? Or use the search engine? Do you need Al Gore, who invented the Internet, to help you find it?

One more question; which party do you think NAMBLA supports, the one for gay marriage, or the ones against it?

Sorry about that, Lee harvey. I missed your post . I am glad you found it, amazes me how ****ing long it took you. Remember a search engine is your friend. Now Dems support NAMBLA, I can really say that is the most anencephlic thought I heard in a long time( I mean that in a good way). That old repub game, mostly recently used by Repub Ken Blackwell. Cmon, cant you do better that

[1bad65]

Total Neo blog........now we know where Bad gets his politics from...at least one of the sources.

Who did they source?

Yup, The Times Leader in Wilkes Barre, PA.

As The Times Leader was the ORIGINAL source, you have to call them a "neo blog".

Parrot.

[1bad65]

Sharky, you have regressed to nonsense, insults, and pointless banter. You have failed to make a single cohesive point, and the floundering points you do make are backed up with outrageous, groundless accusations. again, before you refer to someone as "kid", I suggest you look in the mirror and carefully observe your childish behavior. Consider yourself ignored.

Yup, he is on ignore for me too, until I get an apology for the namecalling.

[SharkyT]

Sharky, you have regressed to nonsense, insults, and pointless banter. You have failed to make a single cohesive point, and the floundering points you do make are backed up with outrageous, groundless accusations. again, before you refer to someone as "kid", I suggest you look in the mirror and carefully observe your childish behavior. Consider yourself ignored.

It is amazing to me, how many times I have told I didnt give a **** what you think. Yet, you keep replying to me , wanting my attention. If you were a female, I could understand somewhat. It is unbecoming in a male.
Here is my objective opinion, you sound like someone's borderline personality girlfriend.

[1bad65]

BD, one more parrotting of the term "Neo blog" and your back on ignore too. I thought you had grown up.

I believe ALMOST everyone brings something to a discussion. But when you refuse to source your arguments, then attack your opponents sources with THE EXACT SAME CHARGE over and over and over... it really becomes obvious your are dealing with someone who is simply a trained parrot.

[SharkyT]

Yup, he is on ignore for me too, until I get an apology for the namecalling.

Et tu , 1BAD65. LOL