Are bil jee elbows the most overused of all wing chun techniques?

[edseas2]

Gary Lam suggests that they are useful in basically only ONE application yet many people seem to use them at every opportunity...thoughts?

Ed :)

[punchdrunk]

I'd bet the most over used technique is either the bong sau or the chain punch!! Both are "trade mark" wing chun yet when you see them used they are seldom required.

[clam61]

chain punch is definitely overused. when you look at most wing chun demos it ends with a chain punch 90% of the time.

when you see most wing chun sparring videos its two guys running each other throwing chain punches like crazy. for some reason they post it on youtube like they should be proud of it.

[Mr Punch]

Gary Lam suggests that they are useful in basically only ONE application yet many people seem to use them at every opportunity...thoughts?There are lots of times to use them. If you mean when the range, openings, timing etc are all good by 'at every opportunity' then yes, I do. The biggest problem with some people I've met using them is that they try from an unrealistic range.


I'd bet the most over used technique is either the bong sau or the chain punch!! Both are "trade mark" wing chun yet when you see them used they are seldom required.Agree 100%, especially about the friggin chain punch. It's an exercise folks! There are few situations to use it effectively: against old women, small children and the infirm.

[clam61]

personally i wouldnt go as far as to say its JUST an excercise. its like throwing continuous jabs. its not a knockout move, but it definitely has its place




There are lots of times to use them. If you mean when the range, openings, timing etc are all good by 'at every opportunity' then yes, I do. The biggest problem with some people I've met using them is that they try from an unrealistic range.

Agree 100%, especially about the friggin chain punch. It's an exercise folks! There are few situations to use it effectively: against old women, small children and the infirm.

[edseas2]

We are NOT fans of most of the elbow uses seen today as they are oftentimes extremely slow and leave the person using them in a very vulnerable position - sometimes off balance, used from too far away (as noted) etc so we basically agree with Gary Lam that they are suitable for only one application...

As to chain punches...perhaps the equivalent of "spray and pray" in the handgun world?
The notion that if I put out enough firepower I'm BOUND to hit something eventually.:)

Ed

[Liddel]

Agree 100%, especially about the friggin chain punch. It's an exercise folks! There are few situations to use it effectively: against old women, small children and the infirm.

I get sick of the fact many use the chain punch exactly like the form...little body turning plus body moving foward punching right down the same line and never mix up other actions on the end.

Ive often launched a flurry (chain punch) and when the opponent covers up i launch a kick or elbow or nice body shot...

I dont think its as intergrated as i can be.... in this sence it is the most overused action in VT IMO.

DREW

[chusauli]

No one should be doing chain punches in a flurry, as in the forms - you press after each punch in 9 different directions, offsetting the opponent's balance and hit him at will anyway you set up.

This way your flurry is giving your opponent a big beating and hitting him all over.

Its not spray and pray. Its sharp shooting and taking them down.

BJ elbows are just for emergency if you get in trouble. Don't get in trouble, then its just you doing a beating. :)

[taojkd]

Chain Punching is most overrated.
Elbows are very useful and there are plenty of applications provided:
Feet before hands, hands before elbows, elbows before shoulder (takedowns).
i.e. no flying elbows from kicking range. Although it looks cool as hell when tony jaa does it.

With all the clinching and pummeling people do nowadays its a much more "popular" range to find yourself in. having a nice arsenal of elbow strikes and applications is healthy.

[Edmund]

Gary Lam suggests that they are useful in basically only ONE application yet many people seem to use them at every opportunity...thoughts?

Simple reasoning:
An elbow strike is very powerful. It can do a lot of damage.

Do you need a lot of different applications?

[edseas2]

No - the only suggested application is when you are grabbed...otherwise elbows are much too slow and inaccurate and potentially put you in a very bad position and other techniques are far superior.

Ed:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

No - the only suggested application is when you are grabbed...otherwise elbows are much too slow and inaccurate and potentially put you in a very bad position and other techniques are far superior.

Ed:)

Yeah, those MT guys have no idea what they're doing.
:D

[edseas2]

Yeah - ring sport, wearing gloves blah blah blah.

This is supposed to be wing chun!

Ed:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah - ring sport, wearing gloves blah blah blah.

This is supposed to be wing chun!

Ed:)

Ah, so what you are saying is the WC elbows suck.
Gottcha.
LOL !

[edseas2]

????


What I'm saying is that elbows are oftentimes grossly overused by folks who don't understand their application in the WC system.

Ed:)

[edseas2]

"Loy Lau Hui Sung"

Ed:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

????


What I'm saying is that elbows are oftentimes grossly overused by folks who don't understand their application in the WC system.

Ed:)

Agreed, but you also said:

No - the only suggested application is when you are grabbed...otherwise elbows are much too slow and inaccurate and potentially put you in a very bad position and other techniques are far superior.

And that is not the case.
And that can almost be said about every technique.
Besides if you trained with Gary I don't think you would say :


Yeah - ring sport, wearing gloves blah blah blah.


About MT, Gary Lam has much respect for MT.

[Edmund]

No - the only suggested application is when you are grabbed...otherwise elbows are much too slow and inaccurate and potentially put you in a very bad position and other techniques are far superior.

Ed:)

I didn't know what Gary Lam was referring to.

So someone grabs you and you elbow them in the head. You don't need that much accuracy IMO.

I think it's simple enough that it just might hurt them.

[edseas2]

Read/you should know the kun kuit (look it up):

"Loy Lau Hui Sung"

Simply stated, 99% of the time that elbows are used they violate one (or more) of our core principles.

MT is limited itself by the weapons it can use because they have to wear gloves when they fight and yes, I know that Gary respects MT as he trained in it and we have great respect for ALL arts.

Ed:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Read/you should know the kun kuit (look it up):

"Loy Lau Hui Sung"

Simply stated, 99% of the time that elbows are used they violate one (or more) of our core principles.

MT is limited itself by the weapons it can use because they have to wear gloves when they fight and yes, I know that Gary respects MT as he trained in it and we have great respect for ALL arts.

Ed:)

Glad to hear, by the way, though most train the SPORT of MT, the MA of MT, Muay Boran, doesn't use gloves and the techniques are almost identical to the sport version.

[taojkd]

Whose core principles? Not the WC/WT i've ever learned. Again, as long as your not flying in a la Tony Jaa with an elbow and respecting the range you are in, elbows are very effective, accurate, and only put you in a weak position when used improperly, like any technique of any martial art you "misuse".




"Loy Lau Hui Sung"

Ed

Maybe we need to start putting these into Chinese for him to understand us.


because they have to wear gloves

They wear gloves, but not elbow pads. And if they have trouble defending them while covering their heads with 16 oz boxing gloves, then someone without gloves will be much more open and susceptible to getting hit with elbows.


About MT, Gary Lam has much respect for MT.

He does because he went to thailand and trained and fought with them. Somehow i dont think ed has. Hence the lack of appreciation for the art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whose core principles? Not the WC/WT i've ever learned. Again, as long as your not flying in a la Tony Jaa with an elbow and respecting the range you are in, elbows are very effective, accurate, and only put you in a weak position when used improperly, like any technique of any martial art you "misuse".




Maybe we need to start putting these into Chinese for him to understand us.



They wear gloves, but not elbow pads. And if they have trouble defending them while covering their heads with 16 oz boxing gloves, then someone without gloves will be much more open and susceptible to getting hit with elbows.



He does because he went to thailand and trained and fought with them. Somehow i dont think ed has. Hence the lack of appreciation for the art.

Excellent points.
Especially the one about the gloves.

[edseas2]

Incredibly sad that in your wc training(?) history you didn't learn the most basic of our core principles because, if you did, you'd know why we don't like to use elbows...also, I never said anything negative about MT and I never would...

Ed:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Incredibly sad that in your wc training(?) history you didn't learn the most basic of our core principles because, if you did, you'd know why we don't like to use elbows...also, I never said anything negative about MT and I never would...

Ed:)

Lets play devils advocate here, which core principles do you feel that elbows violate?

[Mr Punch]

"Loy Lau Hui Sung"So tell us, how does that elbow violate this rule?


Simply stated, 99% of the time that elbows are used they violate one (or more) of our core principles.Simply stated, if you have such a low success rate at elbows, YOU should stop throwing them until you've learnt how to throw them properly. I use them quite nicely and within your precious rules, thanks! :D

[Mr Punch]

No - the only suggested application is when you are grabbed...otherwise elbows are much too slow and inaccurate and potentially put you in a very bad position and other techniques are far superior.And you're suggesting that people don't get grabbed much in fights? Try going against someone who isn't so caught up in your little rule book - you'll often get grabbed, and you'll often use elbows without such a problem.

And slow? WTH are you doing so badly that makes your elbows slow? Ditto inaccurate! It's closer to your target than a punch from the ideal punching range, so you're less likely to miss. You really do need to practise your elbows more!

[edseas2]

FWIW its not what principles I think most elbow techniques violate, its what the founders of the system said. - as integral to our system as chi sao or sil lim tao or the jong.

"Loy lau hui sung"

As someone once told me "A lot has been lost in three generations." I guess that its true.


Ed:)

[Mr Punch]

BJ elbows are just for emergency if you get in trouble. Don't get in trouble, then its just you doing a beating. :)LOL, I find this unusual coming from you as I often agree with you... 'don't get into trouble'? That's right, we can all just knock em out straight off.

Personally, I think this BJ as an emergency form is largely daft. I mean, sure it's for things that go wrong, it's just that since we want to finish a fight in three seconds, things have already gone wrong pretty by then.

You supposed to unleash the devastating chun on them for three seconds then stand there assessing how wrong things are?

YOU: "Let's see, is it time for Biu Jee yet? That'd show..."
THEM: Gadanga gadanga gadanga...

end of assessment.

[Mr Punch]

FWIW its not what principles I think most elbow techniques violate, its what the founders of the system said. - as integral to our system as chi sao or sil lim tao or the jong.

"Loy lau hui sung"

As someone once told me "A lot has been lost in three generations." I guess that its true.


Ed:)Yeah, we read it the first time. So enlighten us: how does this tech violate the principles of loy lau hui sung or any other of your kuen kuit?

You have a circular argument here: if you throw the elbows from a stupid position they're wrong for the system. No ****, Einstein. Like I said, you need to practise your elbows more so you're not violating these rules! :D

[Edmund]

FWIW its not what principles I think most elbow techniques violate, its what the founders of the system said. - as integral to our system as chi sao or sil lim tao or the jong.

"Loy lau hui sung"

As someone once told me "A lot has been lost in three generations." I guess that its true.


Ed:)


Maybe you got a bum translation because there's no mention of elbows in that saying.

[edseas2]

Maybe you got a bum translation because there's no mention of elbows in that saying.


You're right, of course, but using elbows inappropriately (similar to how they're used 99% of the time) violates the maxim.

Ed:)

[edseas2]

And you're suggesting that people don't get grabbed much in fights? Try going against someone who isn't so caught up in your little rule book - you'll often get grabbed, and you'll often use elbows without such a problem.


I thought that I was suggesting that the ONLY appropriate use for elbows was when you ARE grabbed? Regardless, that is how we train...


Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're right, of course, but using elbows inappropriately (similar to how they're used 99% of the time) violates the maxim.

Ed:)

Go on, tell us how they violate those principles and which principles they violate.

[taojkd]

You're right, of course, but using elbows inappropriately (similar to how they're used 99% of the time) violates the maxim.

Ed

What maxim is this? You keep saying were people are violating your maxims but provide no vid as an example of this erroneous use of elbows or why its allegedly wrong. Do some searching of youtube and post some examples and why each is wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, to be honest he does say "using elbows inappropriately..." so, in essenece he is correct.
Heck using ANYTHING inappropriately violates the WC maxims.

[edseas2]

Its easier if you ask your Sifu to explain it to you - it really is an incredibly simple concept.

Ed:)

[taojkd]

I thought that I was suggesting that the ONLY appropriate use for elbows was when you ARE grabbed? Regardless, that is how we train...


Ed

Someone grabs me, i can, and often do, punch. I also elbow them depending on the situation. There are other times when elbows are useful.
Your bong sao gets collapsed a la BilGee elbows.
Slide in from a Bong sao -> Lan or Elbow
Huen Sao to inside of a punching arm of opponent and elbow (cause he's too close to punch)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its easier if you ask your Sifu to explain it to you - it really is an incredibly simple concept.

Ed:)

Ok Richard, if that's how you wanna play it.

[edseas2]

It means:

"Force comes, keep it; Force retreats, follow it"

If you throw an elbow technique, you violate this core maxim as you can't "stick" with it when you use an elbow technique (can't check it OR follow it).

Ed:)

[taojkd]

Its easier if you ask your Sifu to explain it to you - it really is an incredibly simple concept.

Ed

I have. To a couple different instructors that i have trained under. They all seem to think that elbows/knees/clinch (neck-pulling hand from dummy form) are useful if that's the range the fight goes to.




As someone once told me "A lot has been lost in three generations." I guess that its true.

A lot has been gained in 3 generations. Advancement in training methods, more arts to test the techniques against. The more people train and fight the more refined the arts will become.


If you throw an elbow technique, you violate this core maxim as you can't "stick" with it when you use an elbow technique (can't check it OR follow it).

Sure you can. From bong sao i slide in and elbow, sticking all the way in. Elbow from a collapsed bong sao sticks at the wrist all the way in.

When you throw a punch at someone does it "stick" to the opponent all the way in every time? No. of course not.

Didnt you post something about chain punching being the equivalent to "Spray and Pray" firearms tactic. "It will hit sometihng eventually".

My elbow strikes are a lot more accurate than that notion.

And as for maxims. I think these are your maxims, not our core WC maxims. Or perhaps your own misinterpretations of them.

[edseas2]

What maxim is this? You keep saying were people are violating your maxims but provide no vid as an example of this erroneous use of elbows or why its allegedly wrong. Do some searching of youtube and post some examples and why each is wrong.

They're NOT MY maxims! Don't you get it? They are the CORE of our system! You have this thing about youtube...ask your Sifu these questions...

As I said earlier, it is very sad to see how much has been lost in the system so quickly...

Ed:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

It means:

"Force comes, keep it; Force retreats, follow it"

If you throw an elbow technique, you violate this core maxim as you can't "stick" with it when you use an elbow technique (can't check it OR follow it).

Ed:)

I don't agree, but I can see how throwing an elbow incorrectly will violate that maxim, juts like throwing chain punches incorrectly will do the same thing.

[edseas2]

Sure you can. From bong sao i slide in and elbow, sticking all the way in. Elbow from a collapsed bong sao sticks at the wrist all the way in.

When you throw a punch at someone does it "stick" to the opponent all the way in every time? No. of course not.

Didnt you post something about chain punching being the equivalent to "Spray and Pray" firearms tactic. "It will hit sometihng eventually".

My elbow strikes are a lot more accurate than that notion.

And as for maxims. I think these are your maxims, not our core WC maxims. Or perhaps your own misinterpretations of them.


Clearly you haven't learned the system and therefore I am wasting my time...fwiw we DON'T use chain punches...you apparently aren't aware of the PRESENCE of our maxims, much less their significance or any understanding thereof.

Ed

[taojkd]

um, wow. No logic. Just, "i dont agree therefore your wrong". I'm sorry, but i have trained wc under a couple of different lineages/sifus etc and these techniques do not violate any maxims.

Whats worse is that i have used them in several sparring sessions with other styles. Not claiming to be the best or anything, but what i've learned from WC is useful and works.

If you dont mind me asking, where do you train WC and what makes you such an end-all-be-all expert?

To the rest of the peeps on this thread. Am I completely off base with the above mentioned elbow techniques as being NOT WC, or violating some grand universal law of fighting?

(i.e. dont cross the streams, Vankman)

[edseas2]

um, wow. No logic. Just, "i dont agree therefore your wrong". I'm sorry, but i have trained wc under a couple of different lineages/sifus etc.)



A month here...a week there...some DVD's and books I think?...


Ed

[taojkd]

Train 5 nights a week. WT/WC some JKD, FMA, some Boxing, some MT, and BJJ.

You?

I apologize, but these personal attacks are not called for.

[edseas2]

Not in WC you don't unless you JUST started!


Me - twice a week, 3-4 hours /class.

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

When your "***** comparisons" are over, you guys can get back to the thread.

[edseas2]

I apologize.

Ed

[Vajramusti]

It means:

"Force comes, keep it; Force retreats, follow it"

If you throw an elbow technique, you violate this core maxim as you can't "stick" with it when you use an elbow technique (can't check it OR follow it).

Ed:)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with wing chun maxims when properly understood. At close quarters there are lots of opportunities to use elbows and not "violate" the maxims. The maxims were established by good folks/elders with experience and they are empirically based... not empty theories. Whether they work for you depends on your level of development and experience.
You don't have to import elbows from other styles-wing chun is loaded with them. You have to be just careful about how you use them- you don't want to injure your partner.
ALL of the forms have elbow training motions and skill development in them.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with wing chun maxims when properly understood. At close quarters there are lots of opportunities to use elbows and not "violate" the maxims. The maxims were established by good folks/elders with experience and they are empirically based... not empty theories. Whether they work for you depends on your level of development and experience.
You don't have to import elbows from other styles-wing chun is loaded with them. You have to be just careful about how you use them- you don't want to injure your partner.
ALL of the forms have elbow training motions and skill development in them.

joy chaudhuri

Joy makes an excellent point, even though I mentioned MT I wouldn't apply "MT Elbows" to WC principles.

[edseas2]

Joy's critique is INCREDIBLY high level - we practice only (1) elbow in our third form and we hardly ever use it except when grabbed and this is part of a drill.

Otherwise, we argue that elbows are generally misapplied to the point where most folks using them put themselves in a dangerous situation and thereby violate the maxims.

At a level, all maxims can be violated, of course, but...


Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Joy's critique is INCREDIBLY high level - we practice only (1) elbow in our third form and we hardly ever use it except when grabbed and this is part of a drill.

Otherwise, we argue that elbows are generally misapplied to the point where most folks using them put themselves in a dangerous situation and thereby violate the maxims.

At a level, all maxims can be violated, of course, but...


Ed

Who is "WE" ?

[taojkd]

How is what Joy said any different than what several of us on this thread have been saying all along. There are several types of elbow strikes in WC (some in each form) and they each have there place in application. Granted, his wording was more eloquent.

[edseas2]

Just some old guys who get together and ***** about wc once in a while...


Ed

[edseas2]

How is what Joy said any different than what several of us on this thread have been saying all along. There are several types of elbow strikes in WC (some in each form) and they each have there place in application. Granted, his wording was more eloquent.

His critique was more "wingchunnish" and he is a recognized authority so is deserving of great respect.

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

His critique was more "wingchunnish" and he is a recognized authority so is deserving of great respect.

Ed

No offense but truth is truth regardless of who says it or it can't be truth.

[edseas2]

The big difference is that Joy knows the "truth" of the kuen kut....

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

The big difference is that Joy knows the "truth" of the kuen kut....

Ed

While I agree that Joy knows his stuff ( Huge understatement) it doesn't make his "truth" greater than THE TRUTH.
That's like saying that only if Angelo Dundee says that you can lead with a left hook, you can lead with a left hook.

[taojkd]

edseas2

we practice only (1) elbow in our third form and we hardly ever use it except when grabbed and this is part of a drill.



Joy:
You don't have to import elbows from other styles-wing chun is loaded with them.

so which is it. You agree with him (as do i) or you don't? There is 1 elbow strike you use and you hardly ever use it OR there are several elbow strikes in wc and each have their place.

Your contradicting yourself OR your not adequately explaining your argument.

[edseas2]

At a high enough level, its whatever YOU want...just as bil gee seems to violate many concepts - 2 hands on one, not facing etc. at a high enough level its up to the individual practitioner to make it THEIR OWN wing chun...at a VERY high level that is...:)

Ed

[taojkd]

up to the individual practitioner to make it THEIR OWN wing chun

So whats the problem with using a plethora of elbow strikes then? I'm trying to understand how it violates a maxim or 2 UNLESS your high enough level? That doesnt make any sense. It either violates a maxim, and is wrong so you should train a proper reaction OR it doesnt violate a maxim and the techniques should only get more efficient as you get to a higher level.

There are no secrets in wing chun, what works at the higher level is not a mystery. Its just hard work from what you were shown as a beginner.

[edseas2]

Its all in the explanation.

Ask your Sifu.

Ed

[Tom Kagan]

It means:

"Force comes, keep it; Force retreats, follow it"

If you throw an elbow technique, you violate this core maxim as you can't "stick" with it when you use an elbow technique (can't check it OR follow it).

Ed:)


If I told you I could check and also follow an elbow, would you believe me?

[taojkd]

If I told you I could check and also follow an elbow, would you believe me?

Yes. And i'd love it if you could post a nice vid (if possible). It would warm my heart.

[edseas2]

If I told you I could check and also follow an elbow, would you believe me?

Tom-

YOU can check and follow the elbow BUT the person who throws the elbow CAN'T.

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tom-

YOU can check and follow the elbow BUT the person who throws the elbow CAN'T.

Ed

You base this one what?

[edseas2]

Try sticking/following with your elbow after you throw it.

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Try sticking/following with your elbow after you throw it.

Ed

Why would I stick to my own elbow?
As for following it, sure I do, as it turns into another elbow or perhaps into a back fist or hammer fist or even into *gasp* a trap or jam...
:eek:

[taojkd]

If you dont stick to your own punch then i presume, following this logic, its not a wing chun punch?

[edseas2]

Why would I stick to my own elbow?
As for following it, sure I do, as it turns into another elbow or perhaps into a back fist or hammer fist or even into *gasp* a trap or jam...
:eek:


Yours is a VERY different wc than our own. We are traditional YM wc/vt and, therefore, have NO backfist, NO hammer fist and try to control the opponent's bridge arms at all times.

There are stories about YM defeating WSL without throwing a single punch but just by controlling his bridge arms...

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yours is a VERY different wc than our own. We are traditional YM wc/vt and, therefore, have NO backfist, NO hammer fist and try to control the opponent's bridge arms at all times.

There are stories about YM defeating WSL without throwing a single punch but just by controlling his bridge arms...

Ed

Moy Yat is "my" WC, though it certainly isn't mine.

[chusauli]

LOL, I find this unusual coming from you as I often agree with you... 'don't get into trouble'? That's right, we can all just knock em out straight off.

Personally, I think this BJ as an emergency form is largely daft. I mean, sure it's for things that go wrong, it's just that since we want to finish a fight in three seconds, things have already gone wrong pretty by then.

You supposed to unleash the devastating chun on them for three seconds then stand there assessing how wrong things are?

YOU: "Let's see, is it time for Biu Jee yet? That'd show..."
THEM: Gadanga gadanga gadanga...

end of assessment.


LOL!

In a perfect world, you'd be doing the gadangas!

LOL! Is that Bas Rutten?

[edseas2]

Yours is a VERY different wc than our own. We are traditional YM wc/vt and, therefore, have NO backfist, NO hammer fist and try to control the opponent's bridge arms at all times.

There are stories about YM defeating WSL without throwing a single punch but just by controlling his bridge arms...

Ed


Are you saying that there is a backfist in Moy Yat vt?

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you saying that there is a backfist in Moy Yat vt?

Ed

It is in mine ;)
Why would I not use something that works?

[edseas2]

Well said.

Ed

[Edmund]

I thought that I was suggesting that the ONLY appropriate use for elbows was when you ARE grabbed? Regardless, that is how we train...


Well you were saying it was violating principles to do that before.

Essentially you think it's never appropriate.


Try sticking/following with your elbow after you throw it.


There are stories about YM defeating WSL without throwing a single punch but just by controlling his bridge arms...


Well are you trying to hold the guy's hands or beat the hell out of him?

[edseas2]

No - I'm saying that the only appropriate use for elbow strikes (for us and you may want to see Gary's biu video) is when our hand(s) are grabbed.

We obviously consider it an emergency when our hands are grabbed hence the use of the elbow in this particular case.

YM was so adept that he could win by controlling the bridge arms.

Ed

[Edmund]

No - I'm saying that the only appropriate use for elbow strikes (for us and you may want to see Gary's biu video) is when our hand(s) are grabbed.

We obviously consider it an emergency when our hands are grabbed hence the use of the elbow in this particular case.

YM was so adept that he could win by controlling the bridge arms.


I think I disagree with your idea of what's appropriate.
You accused MT of being limited in it's weapons yet you are only using an elbow in the specific circumstance where they grab your hand.

AND it's due to your ideal of sticking to your opponent which takes precedence over actually hitting them on a fairly large target (the head) with a pretty strong strike.

The elbow is one of the most solid and boney parts of your body that you can use to strike with. It can be applied in more than one scenario but if you want focus on holding hands to pay homage to the legend of Yip Man I don't think you're going to approve of any of the more practical applications of elbow strikes.

[punchdrunk]

maybe this is a misunderstanding? To say gwai jarn is misused in most demos is definately correct, but to say it only serves one purpose is wrong. Elbows should only be used in the correct range, but there are many ways you can end up there. Having your hands grabbed is one way but there are others.

[edseas2]

I think I disagree with your idea of what's appropriate.
You accused MT of being limited in it's weapons yet you are only using an elbow in the specific circumstance where they grab your hand.

AND it's due to your ideal of sticking to your opponent which takes precedence over actually hitting them on a fairly large target (the head) with a pretty strong strike.

The elbow is one of the most solid and boney parts of your body that you can use to strike with. It can be applied in more than one scenario but if you want focus on holding hands to pay homage to the legend of Yip Man I don't think you're going to approve of any of the more practical applications of elbow strikes.

I never ACCUSED MT of being limited but said that they ARE limited due to the confines of their gloves in the ring - outside the ring there is, of course, no such limitation - and yes, I say that we (and others) feel that the only really good purpose for using elbows is to defend being grabbed else you lose control of your opponent, among other things.

Mentioning YM was meant to demonstrate his vast superiority and mastery of the system - nothing more, nothing less - and to show how wc has devolved in to a much more "karate" type system than was used in the past - controlling your opponent achieves many things, the least of which may be having the ability to practically hit them at will...a level I have felt but have not achieved myself, btw.

"Holding hands" is a vast corruption of what YM was able to accomplish through his body unity, sensitivity and incredible mastery of the system.

Ed

[taojkd]

They wear gloves, but not elbow pads. And if they have trouble defending them while covering their heads with 16 oz boxing gloves, then someone without gloves will be much more open and susceptible to getting hit with elbows.

Oh, wait. We've already been over this haven't we?

Consider this:

Tan X
Lop X
Kuo X
Bong/Lop X

Where X is the strike that is in the appropriate range. If I Tan/Shift enough to relieve the pressure of my opponents strike, and the range that i am in relative to my opponents reach given what my reach is happens to be an elbow, what kind of strike would you like me to throw? Cant throw a decent punch as I'm too close.

Try training with people with significantly different reach than yours. You relieve the pressure with what you feel enough to maintain your structure and create an opening for you to strike your opponent with the appropriately ranged weapon (punch, elbow, knife, stick, knee etc).

[edseas2]

They wear gloves, but not elbow pads. And if they have trouble defending them while covering their heads with 16 oz boxing gloves, then someone without gloves will be much more open and susceptible to getting hit with elbows.

Oh, wait. We've already been over this haven't we?

Consider this:

Tan X
Lop X
Kuo X
Bong/Lop X

Where X is the strike that is in the appropriate range. If I Tan/Shift enough to relieve the pressure of my opponents strike, and the range that i am in relative to my opponents reach given what my reach is happens to be an elbow, what kind of strike would you like me to throw? Cant throw a decent punch as I'm too close.

Try training with people with significantly different reach than yours. You relieve the pressure with what you feel enough to maintain your structure and create an opening for you to strike your opponent with the appropriately ranged weapon (punch, elbow, knife, stick, knee etc).


If "x is the strike that is at an appropriate range" relates to YOUR skill set and YOUR knowledge of the system and YOUR ability to keep the opponent at the desired range without collapsing YOUR structure.

If you can't "throw a decent punch as I'm too close" indicates a lack of familiarity of the system and not enough knowledge of the other tools in the system that are available.

Ed

[CFT]

If you can't "throw a decent punch as I'm too close" indicates a lack of familiarity of the system and not enough knowledge of the other tools in the system that are available.Did you not read the post? He said he would use elbows. Of course you can be too close to punch. What if you have body-body contact? Why not use the shoulder?

You are making things personal when it is uncalled for.

[edseas2]

Did you not read the post? He said he would use elbows. Of course you can be too close to punch. What if you have body-body contact? Why not use the shoulder?

You are making things personal when it is uncalled for.


And I was saying that the use of the elbow would be inappropriate - that there are MANY other more appropriate techniques which, apparently, he is unfamiliar with.

Lastly, like he's NOT personal.

Ed

[taojkd]

What if you have body-body contact? Why not use the shoulder?

Shoulder punch. Excellent point.


You are making things personal when it is uncalled for.

Thanks for the support. Its way personal for such a simple discussion of opinion and preferences.

Great vid for elbows in wing chun:
at 1:40, 1:45, and 2:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQuut2eBXlI

[edseas2]

Try this as an example of why NOT to use an elbow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8h32nw23wQ

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Try this as an example of why NOT to use an elbow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8h32nw23wQ

Ed

You mean WHEN NOT to use an elbow.

[taojkd]

You mean WHEN NOT to use an elbow.

Exactly.

He does a similar defense to William Cheungs at :46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQuut2eBXlI

[edseas2]

More realistic than a "compliant training partner.":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=196kCQawtcc

Count the elbow strikes in the above video.


Ed

[taojkd]

Um, 1:24:

"No kicks, holds, elbows, knees, or sweeps or any of the many Wing Chun techniques"

So, there isnt anything being trained here BUT footwork and punches.

Bad vid example.

[edseas2]

Wrong!

You missed the entire point which is simply that under REAL pressure most of those techniques go OUT the window.


Ed

[Tom Kagan]

Tom-

YOU can check and follow the elbow BUT the person who throws the elbow CAN'T.

Ed

Are you saying what I can and cannot do with my own elbow?

[edseas2]

Is it physically possible for you to "stick" after throwing an elbow?

Ed

[taojkd]

So under REAL pressure, most techniques such as grappling, clinching, knees, elbows and sweeps go out the window, huh?

Maybe you should stop by your local MMA gym and let them know their doing it all wrong. Those techniques never work under REAL pressure.

The vid was a bad choice for your argument cause they werent allowed to use anything but footwork and punches. It doesnt PROVE that elbows are ineffective except for one instance. How does it PROVE that they dont work under real pressure when your not trying to use them?


Is it physically possible for you to "stick" after throwing an elbow?
Kuo Sao and Elbow: Yes, i stick with my Kuo Sao to his bridge and my elbow sticks to his face.

[edseas2]

So under REAL pressure, most techniques such as grappling, clinching, knees, elbows and sweeps go out the window, huh?

Maybe you should stop by your local MMA gym and let them know their doing it all wrong. Those techniques never work under REAL pressure.

The vid was a bad choice for your argument cause they werent allowed to use anything but footwork and punches. It doesnt PROVE that elbows are ineffective except for one instance. How does it PROVE that they dont work under real pressure when your not trying to use them?


Kuo Sao and Elbow: Yes, i stick with my Kuo Sao to his bridge and my elbow sticks to his face.



Why don't YOU stop by your local MMA gym and try throwing an elbow at a non-compliant partner?

Do you REALLY think you could have used an elbow in that exchange? Lastly, you would lose contact with your opponent after elbowing him in the face, would you not?

As to kuo sao, many lineages do NOT recognize this technique of Leung Ting's, btw.


Ed

[taojkd]

Why don't YOU stop by your local MMA gym and try throwing an elbow at a non-compliant partner?

I do. Most MMA gyms teach MT. Lots o' elbows to be thrown.


As to kuo sao, many lineages do NOT recognize this technique of Leung Ting's, btw.

Funny. I learned that as part of the dummy form from VT. never learned LT's dummy form.

"Kao"
"Kau" (sp?)

Tom, you've been doing WC awhile. Which is it? Kao, Kau? I forget the english translation of the technique from the dummy (have to check my notes).

[sanjuro_ronin]

More realistic than a "compliant training partner.":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=196kCQawtcc

Count the elbow strikes in the above video.


Ed

The video said " no elbows, kicks, knees or sweeps".
It seems those weren't allowed?
And he got the guy with 1 punch, not 3 or whatever the video said it was, the other "punches" caused no reaction ofter the first one clocked him good.

[edseas2]

The video said " no elbows, kicks, knees or sweeps".
It seems those weren't allowed?
And he got the guy with 1 punch, not 3 or whatever the video said it was, the other "punches" caused no reaction ofter the first one clocked him good.

Apparently allowed but under stress did NOT show up.

Ed

[taojkd]

Apparently allowed but under stress did NOT show up.

Allow me to post the following vid to explain to you that clinching, grappling, knees and elbows do show up under REAL pressure. So even if this one guy just reacts with but punches, heres a couple of vids that illustrate that most other human beings on the planet will use other parts of their bodies as a weapon.




http://everyMMAmatcheverinthehistoryofthesport.com

[edseas2]

Allow me to post the following vid to explain to you that clinching, grappling, knees and elbows do show up under REAL pressure. So even if this one guy just reacts with but punches, heres a couple of vids that illustrate that most other human beings on the planet will use other parts of their bodies as a weapon.




http://everyMMAmatcheverinthehistoryofthesport.com



Sorry - WRONG FORUM!

This is the WC/VT forum.

Why not hop on over to the MMA forum?

(Not that I could open the link at all but going by the URL...)


Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Apparently allowed but under stress did NOT show up.

Ed

Well, they certainly didn't NEED to show up, did they?
LOL !
It was a nicely placed punch.

[Tom Kagan]

Is it physically possible for you to "stick" after throwing an elbow?

Ed

Yes.

You avoided my question. Please answer.

[edseas2]

Unless your elbow functions differently than my own then its movement is predictable and, therefore, I would be able to ascertain what you can do with your elbow.

Does that answer your question?

Ed

[taojkd]

Unless your elbow functions differently than my own then its movement is predictable and, therefore, I would be able to ascertain what you can do with your elbow.

Can't the same be said for a punch or kick? Hell, I know how a punch works. So by that same logic i should be able to ascertain what you can do with your punch.

[edseas2]

How nice of you to respond to an answer to a question Tom asked me!

I have the feeling, however, that your answer is completely unrelated to Tom's question.

We'll see...

Ed

[Tom Kagan]

Unless your elbow functions differently than my own then its movement is predictable and, therefore, I would be able to ascertain what you can do with your elbow.

Does that answer your question?

Ed

Have you considered that the motion of what your own elbow can and cannot do is limited by your thinking?

[edseas2]

Yes - if you mean limited by the fact that its a human elbow...

Ed

[Tom Kagan]

Yes - if you mean limited by the fact that its a human elbow...

Ed


And you know what can and cannot be done with an elbow and it's definitely not stick and follow?

[edseas2]

And you know what can and cannot be done with an elbow and it's definitely not stick and follow?


Oh no...I believe that it can stick and follow unless I just hit something with it because then, ipso facto, after the target is struck I will lose contact BUT, I could always regain contact... but immediately after the strike the contact will be lost - maybe for a split second, maybe longer...thoughts?

Ed

[Tom Kagan]

Oh no...I believe that it can stick and follow unless I just hit something with it because then, ipso facto, after the target is struck I will lose contact BUT, I could always regain contact... but immediately after the strike the contact will be lost - maybe for a split second, maybe longer...thoughts?

Ed

Are you recanting your original assertion that you can't stick and follow with an elbow?

[edseas2]

Are you recanting your original assertion that you can't stick and follow with an elbow?

Not at all. this is what I asked (verbatim):

"Is it physically possible for you to "stick" after throwing an elbow?"

Perhaps, for the purposes of clarity I should have said "Is it possible for you to "stick" IMMEDIATELY after throwing an elbow?"

But, I was hoping that this would be picked up on for discussion and I'm glad to see that it was...

Ed

[taojkd]

"Is it physically possible for you to "stick" after throwing an elbow?"

Is it possible to stick after throwing (and landing) a punch? At this point, if i have landed a punch, the opponent usually (starts) to fall over. Now if that had been an elbow, then nothing has changed. Hence why i dont see why sticking to an opponent with a a striking arm is important (neither does the kuen kuits). Now, the other bridge hand should. But at that point what does that bridge care if the other hand landed a punch or an elbow. As long as control is made with the other bridge hand.

for example.
Kuo Sao/Elbow -> Inside Pak Dar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F38SJyHKH94
(at about 1 min he steps in with an elbow, traps his opponents hands down)

[edseas2]

Simple answer:

wrong!


Ed

[taojkd]

Simple answer:
wrong!


I love how you tell people they are just "wrong", and "get a real sifu" and "i'm gonna quote some other sifu's book/video", but offer no logic behind the reason. Its sooo reminiscent of the old lineage wars. "Its wrong cause MY sifu says so, and only he knows the REAL chun"

Seriously. The 80's are gone. Please leave them in the past.

You asked if its possible to stick after throwing an elbow and the answer was yes, and I even gave an example.
Does my TAN stick to my opponent after a Tan Dar.
Yes.
Does the Kuo stick to my opponent after a Kuo Sau/Elbow.
Yes.
Does the Bong which collapses to an elbow from Bil Gee stick.
Yes.

If you think these are "wrong", as in, its an "inadvisable" technique, then please state your logic behind such an argument.

[Tom Kagan]

Perhaps, for the purposes of clarity I should have said "Is it possible for you to "stick" IMMEDIATELY after throwing an elbow?"

And as I asked you the first time, If I said I could, would you believe me?

[anerlich]

Are bil jee elbows the most overused of all wing chun techniques?

It is manifestly evident that, among 21st century WC practitioners, the "cutting internet barb" is the most overused of all Wing Chun techniques.

Some practititoners appear to use this technique to the exclusion of all others.

Compared to this, all other techniques are grossly underutilised.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It is manifestly evident that, among 21st century WC practitioners, the "cutting internet barb" is the most overused of all Wing Chun techniques.

Some practititoners appear to use this technique to the exclusion of all others.

Compared to this, all other techniques are grossly underutilised.


**Ha! Ha! Ha! :p

[taojkd]

It is manifestly evident that, among 21st century WC practitioners, the "cutting internet barb" is the most overused of all Wing Chun techniques.

Some practititoners appear to use this technique to the exclusion of all others.

Compared to this, all other techniques are grossly underutilised.

ROFL!! Even worse than a paper cut. The "cutting internet barb".

[Liddel]

It means:

"Force comes, keep it; Force retreats, follow it"

If you throw an elbow technique, you violate this core maxim as you can't "stick" with it when you use an elbow technique (can't check it OR follow it).

Ed:)

The elbow side maybe but whats your other side doing ? where does it say that theory has to always apply to the offencive action, what about the defencive side - this is VT we have two sides working in unisen dont we :rolleyes:... Some examples ive experienced -

If someone presses my bridge down and i follow into an overhead Karp Jarn ive held to the theory havent i - accept what comes.

If i tan an action and follow into a elbow as its moved away ive also held to the theory - follow what goes.

If i follow into Bil then Lan after the Karp i can maintain touch if the opponent is staying in the pocket. - sticking.

I can transition into a lower guarn or double even after an elbow to cover my open space... this allows one to turn from side to side maintaining body movement therefore power.. Yu Ma Lik.

And im not even touching on what the other side is doing - i like to press a bridge down when sparring to stop the opponent from getting off and elbow over the top, one hand is sticking LOL... and the elbow acts as a high guard for the opponents free side if he has fantastic timing to punch me prior to my elbow landing.

These are several examples of areas ive used elbows in sparring, i think while the theory is sound they way you see it is boxing you in Ed. Excuse the pun :rolleyes:

DREW