This is our fault

[Mas Judt]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/04/mexico.general/index.html

Anyone who buys and uses illegal narcotics is funding the destruction of our Southern neighbor.

Even if 'Pot' was legalized, there is no way one can argue legalization for other dangerous narcotics.

American narcissism is destroying Mexico.

****es me off, it does...

[golden arhat]

Even if 'Pot' was legalized, there is no way one can argue legalization for other dangerous narcotics.

if we legalise drugs

we control the potency

we make a fortune

save a fortune on policing it and the crime that results from it

and the workers who make the stuff dont have to live in fear of armed reprisal if they dont do well in fact the worers will prosper from legalisation

you might argue hey these drugs are dangerous
well SO WHAT its peoples choice to or not to do it, its THEIR lives and alcohol kills more peopel a year anyway

legalizing opium would cut groups like al quaeda and the talibans funding right from under them and thus their ability to make war

and the southern aemrcian continent would prosper free from corruption

as long as your choice doesnt affect other people directly the government should have no say in what you do or dont do

the only reason alot of countrys dont want legalisation is because they cant monopolise it quickly if it was
simple

[David Jamieson]

everything should be legal so that it can be taxed and controlled and taken out of the hands of criminals.

not everyone smokes cigarettes, and not everyone drinks so the arguments that it would decay society fall flat on it's face. many if not most people can't be bothered with recreational drug use of any kind.

i have heard more than one LEO and even some of considerable rank advocate this position.

i think it's not all legal because someone...who is getting very rich off of it, is the same someone who lobbies for drugs to remain illegal.

legislating out of fear of the unknown is rank stupidity.
just legalize it all.

/rant

[Reverend Tap]

I read somewhere that the fiercest lobbyists against legalization came from the alcohol and tobacco companies, for fear of competition over customers. Don't have any idea if that's actually accurate, and it was a long time ago I read this in any case, just throwing it out there.

[Lucas]

I read somewhere that the fiercest lobbyists against legalization came from the alcohol and tobacco companies, for fear of competition over customers. Don't have any idea if that's actually accurate, and it was a long time ago I read this in any case, just throwing it out there.

i wouldnt doubt that for a second.

[Cimaroon]

IF you want to know about weed and the criminalization of it. " The Emperor wears no clothes" is the book you want to read


Humboldt county just get your ganj from there. Things criss.

[sanjuro_ronin]

everything should be legal so that it can be taxed and controlled and taken out of the hands of criminals.

not everyone smokes cigarettes, and not everyone drinks so the arguments that it would decay society fall flat on it's face. many if not most people can't be bothered with recreational drug use of any kind.

i have heard more than one LEO and even some of considerable rank advocate this position.

i think it's not all legal because someone...who is getting very rich off of it, is the same someone who lobbies for drugs to remain illegal.

legislating out of fear of the unknown is rank stupidity.
just legalize it all.

/rant


Where would you draw the line?

[MasterKiller]

Where would you draw the line?

Why should there be a line? This is America, where freedom of choice is supposed to be a God-given right.

If you want to get addicted to cigarettes, that's your choice.
If you want to get addicted to alcohol, that's your choice.
If you want to get addicted to heroin, that's your choice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why should there be a line? This is America, where freedom of choice is supposed to be a God-given right.

If you want to get addicted to cigarettes, that's your choice.
If you want to get addicted to alcohol, that's your choice.
If you want to get addicted to heroin, that's your choice.

tricky slope dude, very tricky.

[MasterKiller]

tricky slope dude, very tricky.

No trickier than alcohol or cigarettes. Make the mandatory age for use 21, then tax the industry to generate income for public education against the use of those products.

It's not the governments job to tell me what I can do to my body. They can warn me of the consequences, though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No trickier than alcohol or cigarettes. Make the mandatory age for use 21, then tax the industry to generate income for public education against the use of those products.

It's not the governments job to tell me what I can do to my body.

Its not their job to take care of your re-hab either, correct?

[MasterKiller]

Its not their job to take care of your re-hab either, correct?

Tax money from the industry can provide for re-hab and medical expenses, just like tabacco. The government already spends a sh1tload on rehabbing addicts anyway. Why not tax the industry to recoup your costs?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tax money from the industry can provide for re-hab and medical expenses, just like tabacco.

So it IS the governments responsibility?

[MasterKiller]

So it IS the governments responsibility?

No more so than it already it. Taxes can help pay for private rehab, but rehab should not be a public responsibility, which it currently is for most cases.

People are going to get high and get addicted, this is a fact right now. Let the drug makers pay for it out of their profits instead of me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No more so than it already it. Taxes can help pay for private rehab, but rehab should not be a public responsibility, which it currently is for most cases.

People are going to get high and get addicted, this is a fact right now. Let the drug makers pay for it out of their profits instead of me.

No issues with that at all.
And you are quite correct, people are already getting addicted, better to make it a controlled substance and ENFORCE it as such.

[David Jamieson]

In a true democratic society. the people are the government and the government acts on the will of the people.

we don't elect nannies, we elect representatives to hold up and support our views and our will as a people.

there is no need to draw a line as stated. you can still have rule of law to enforce the will of the people. drunk driving is a criminal code offense for instance, why wouldn't any other instance of where harm is brought to someone else through criminal intent go unpunished?

the war on drugs is a huge waste of money. If we control the flow, tax the crap out of it there will be benefits.

people with addictive personalities can be included in the help available when they get to a point hey need to deal with it. there's no difference in my eyes between an alcoholic and a heroin addict except that the former is paying, through taxes for his hospital care and the latter is not because there is no system in place for that to occur.

make the problem pay for the solution. It's very freeing and promotes a more intelligent society.

:)

[Hardwork108]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/04/mexico.general/index.html

Anyone who buys and uses illegal narcotics is funding the destruction of our Southern neighbor.

Even if 'Pot' was legalized, there is no way one can argue legalization for other dangerous narcotics.

American narcissism is destroying Mexico.

****es me off, it does...

Not just Mexico but also this effects Colombia and a few other South American countries.

[1bad65]

I read somewhere that the fiercest lobbyists against legalization came from the alcohol and tobacco companies, for fear of competition over customers. Don't have any idea if that's actually accurate, and it was a long time ago I read this in any case, just throwing it out there.

The Governement also profits from the war on drugs. They do it through seizure laws.

I'm all for legalizing it. We tried Prohibition once, people still drank alcohol and people like Al Capone got rich off it. It's no different now, people still get high, and drug lords are making tons of money off it.

[Reverend Tap]

The Governement also profits from the war on drugs. They do it through seizure laws.

I'm all for legalizing it. We tried Prohibition once, people still drank alcohol and people like Al Capone got rich off it. It's no different now, people still get high, and drug lords are making tons of money off it.

For once, we agree 100%.

[Hardwork108]

What worries me about legalization of drugs is the fact that we are going to end up legally stoned people side by side with legally drunk people, not to mention the silently stoned who are on certain prescription drugs as well.

That scenario does not sound like a healthy society. Or am I too old fashioned?

[Reverend Tap]

What worries me about legalization of drugs is the fact that we are going to end up legally stoned people side by side with legally drunk people, not to mention the silently stoned who are on certain prescription drugs as well.

That scenario does not sound like a healthy society. Or am I too old fashioned?

With the exception of the legality of being stoned, that's no different from what we have now.

[Hardwork108]

With the exception of the legality of being stoned, that's no different from what we have now.

I see your point but wouldn´t making narcotics legal encourage more consumption?

[Reverend Tap]

I see your point but wouldn´t making narcotics legal encourage more consumption?

I can't cite statistics because it's been a friggin' long time since I read up on it, but from what I've read countries that legalize actually tend to see something of a drop in overall usage.

[taai gihk yahn]

the silently stoned who are on certain prescription drugs as well.
on this you make a good point, one that I have noticed for years - specifically, the massive preponderance of anti-depressants - I think that something like 30-50% of the population is on these things? add in the anti-anxiety meds and I can't imagine what the numbers are; while these make people more "functional", it's still unsettling, because it is so common yet goes largely unnoticed;

personally, I am in favor of legalization, but what concerns me is how to prevent people in significantly altered states of consciousness from harming other people, and probably there should be a minimum age

[David Jamieson]

on this you make a good point, one that I have noticed for years - specifically, the massive preponderance of anti-depressants - I think that something like 30-50% of the population is on these things? add in the anti-anxiety meds and I can't imagine what the numbers are; while these make people more "functional", it's still unsettling, because it is so common yet goes largely unnoticed;

personally, I am in favor of legalization, but what concerns me is how to prevent people in significantly altered states of consciousness from harming other people, and probably there should be a minimum age

I think the stat is 40% of the USA is on some form of prescribed drug care.

In the case of the huge amount of anti-depressants being out there, that is more indicative of how sick our social model is.

Krishnamurti once said "To say that one is well adjusted to this society that is so profoundly ill, is not saying much at all"(sic).

With this continued recession and the inevitable depression that will follow, we will see even more people reduced in their own minds and resorting to drug use, suicide, etc. Anything to escape the reality that we have all created for ourselves by, first and foremost, not taking responsibility for the lives we lead.

We are collectively too distracted! Time to wake up, chop wood and carry water!

[taai gihk yahn]

Krishnamurti once said "To say that one is well adjusted to this society that is so profoundly ill, is not saying much at all"(sic).
K. is da man; chapter 1 of "The First & Last Freedom" pretty much sums it up...

[TenTigers]

I have a student who is a pharmacist in Target. She says the majority (around 90 %) of her patients are in for pain meds, anti-depressants/mood elevators, and anti psychotic drugs. Pretty scary, huh?

[SimonM]

It's almost ironic...

I am a vocal advocate for wide-spread legalization. And yet I've only used 3 advil in the last year and that was when I had a simultaneous ear ache and tooth ache on the same side of my head. :p

We live in an over-medicated society.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have a student who is a pharmacist in Target. She says the majority (around 90 %) of her patients are in for pain meds, anti-depressants/mood elevators, and anti psychotic drugs. Pretty scary, huh?

Nah, pretty typical, according to my doctor I am the biggest freak he has ever had, in the years he has been my doctor he has never prescribed anything to me other than the cure for Ulcers when it was found that it was a bacteria that causes it.
Never even had a prescription for tylenol 3, LOL !
No pain killers, no medication of any kind.
Of course, I am immortal, so...
:p

[David Jamieson]

Nah, pretty typical, according to my doctor I am the biggest freak he has ever had, in the years he has been my doctor he has never prescribed anything to me other than the cure for Ulcers when it was found that it was a bacteria that causes it.
Never even had a prescription for tylenol 3, LOL !
No pain killers, no medication of any kind.
Of course, I am immortal, so...
:p

there are a lot of blubbering puzzies out there though who run for medication every time they stub their toes. Manginas is what they are.

the "tough guy" is harder and harder to find.

I too shun medication for aches and pains. It's not like the aches and pains are gonna go away. In fact, they get compiled with age!

I feel the best after rigorous exercise.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are a lot of blubbering puzzies out there though who run for medication every time they stub their toes. Manginas is what they are.

the "tough guy" is harder and harder to find.

I too shun medication for aches and pains. It's not like the aches and pains are gonna go away. In fact, they get compiled with age!

I feel the best after rigorous exercise.

I like the pain, it reminds me I am not dead !
I worry about when I WON'T feel pain !

[TenTigers]

update-I spoke to my student-they dispense an average of 300 scripts a day.
scary, huh?

[David Jamieson]

I like the pain, it reminds me I am not dead !
I worry about when I WON'T feel pain !

If we all adopted an attitude of looking forward to our own deaths with a positive attitude, I think there would be a lot less depression and more meaningful lives would be lived.

That just came to mind from your last point. I personally don't worry about my own death, I welcome it in a very positive sense. It is after all a part of one's life and is the great equalizer! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If we all adopted an attitude of looking forward to our own deaths with a positive attitude, I think there would be a lot less depression and more meaningful lives would be lived.

That just came to mind from your last point. I personally don't worry about my own death, I welcome it in a very positive sense. It is after all a part of one's life and is the great equalizer! :)

Being immortal, I don't really understand thsi death thing, but you have my sympathies.

[Mas Judt]

Being immortal, I don't really understand thsi death thing, but you have my sympathies.

Good, I was looking for you.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good, I was looking for you.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

You sure about that?
I mean, sequels and all that...

[David Jamieson]

that chick looks part lizard or something. i never done an iguana before though...so... :p

[BentMonk]

What worries me about legalization of drugs is the fact that we are going to end up legally stoned people side by side with legally drunk people, not to mention the silently stoned who are on certain prescription drugs as well.

That scenario does not sound like a healthy society. Or am I too old fashioned?

This already occurs regardless of the legal status of some peoples drug of choice. The whole "more people would get addicted" argument was shown to be a load of BS by the Dutch. The world outside the US thinks US drug policies are ridiculous and they're right. Addiction is a character flaw not a crime. The cops and the dealers are making tons of money from the current situation. Until that changes, nothing changes. It's not about saving the kids, keeping people healthy or any of the BS propaganda. It's about MONEY period. What's right is dismissed and ignored in favor of profit. Sad, but true.

[Exadon]

world outside the US thinks US drug policies are ridiculous and they're right.

Hmm, you think the US’s drug policies are ridiculous? I would think we are mild compared to China :)

[BentMonk]

Hmm, you think the US’s drug policies are ridiculous? I would think we are mild compared to China :)

True. There are worse but, the US markets itself to the world as "the land of the free." A place where every person has their individual right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

China does not.

The US has lost the spirit of its promise. Common sense has been gone for quite a while too.

[David Jamieson]

pssst, you haven't had a properly elected president or installed government since Eisenhower.

[Kansuke]

:rolleyes:

More 'enlightenment' from the Land of the Inferiority Complex...

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

More 'enlightenment' from the Land of the Inferiority Complex...

mmmmm you can really smell the weak knees on this one. lol. :)
It's ok Kansuke, you are loved.































regularly from behind! ;D

[Kansuke]

LO~no, that is some weak ****. You'd better skip off to France to pick up some new material, champ.

[David Jamieson]

LO~no, that is some weak ****. You'd better skip off to France to pick up some new material, champ.

I think that's your third or fourth try at a france bashing joke.

so, it's clear who needs new material.


pssst, that would be you.

seriously, how long can you keep this up, you are a newbie here and I have a big box of lessons for you should you keep looking inside.

we can make your entire stay here all about what a fruitloop you are jumping around, getting all angry and stuff.

[bakxierboxer]

I think that's your third or fourth try at a france bashing joke.


I never thought overly much about France.......
Then I found something from France that I actually LIKED.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIFdaW9pOBU

[Kansuke]

I think that's your third or fourth try at a france bashing joke.


Pay attention dopey, all bashing is directed at YOU.

[Kansuke]

I have a big box of lessons for you should you keep looking inside.



You have a big box of lessons for the whole world, don't you champ? :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

mexican drug lords? [shrugs shoudlers] doesnt effect me.

[Mas Judt]

Eisenhower? Try Teddy Roosevelt.

[David Jamieson]

Eisenhower? Try Teddy Roosevelt.

Really? I guess that could be viewed as the starting point of "globalism". You're probably right about that.

Eisenhower had a free voice though in his time and gave the clarion call as to what was in store if people sit back and allowed some things to happen following WW2.

It is apparent that that went unheeded though imo.

[Hardwork108]

Eisenhower? Try Teddy Roosevelt.
Try George Washington.:D

[jo]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/04/mexico.general/index.html

Anyone who buys and uses illegal narcotics is funding the destruction of our Southern neighbor.

Even if 'Pot' was legalized, there is no way one can argue legalization for other dangerous narcotics.

American narcissism is destroying Mexico.

****es me off, it does...

Duuuuuude...anyone who is a true 420 lover knows the best is grown here in America!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28354324/

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

-jo

[doug maverick]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/04/mexico.general/index.html

Anyone who buys and uses illegal narcotics is funding the destruction of our Southern neighbor.

Even if 'Pot' was legalized, there is no way one can argue legalization for other dangerous narcotics.

American narcissism is destroying Mexico.

****es me off, it does...

Fact: america is the number one consumer of cocaine and marijuana, as well as other illegal narcotics.

[Drake]

I think people are too stupid to use drugs responsibly, in any form. I'm on the far end of the spectrum, and I say ban tobacco and alcohol too. Apparently our population at large is so stupid that they happily destroy their lives and bodies, expecting us to foot the bill when they get emphysema, their livers give out, or they slam into a family of four coming home from vacation.

Again, the "it's just meeeee" argument is pointless and ignorant, because someone will eventually have to either care for you or put you in jail for doing something stupid because you absolutely HAD to alter your brain in order to make life either tolerable or enjoyable. F' em.

[Hardwork108]

I think people are too stupid to use drugs responsibly, in any form. I'm on the far end of the spectrum, and I say ban tobacco and alcohol too. Apparently our population at large is so stupid that they happily destroy their lives and bodies, expecting us to foot the bill when they get emphysema, their livers give out, or they slam into a family of four coming home from vacation.

Again, the "it's just meeeee" argument is pointless and ignorant, because someone will eventually have to either care for you or put you in jail for doing something stupid because you absolutely HAD to alter your brain in order to make life either tolerable or enjoyable. F' em.

Excellent post.:)

As you put it as well, the problem is that many drug consumers go on to hurt more people either physcially, psychologically and or financially (including through criminal acts). The fact is the best option is to ban the d@mn things and punish severely any drug trafficers and when I say severely I mean severely!

On the other hand social and powerful media campaigns against the use of drugs and their consequences should be required by law.

I don't believe that giving everyone and their grandmothers the right to smoke, snort and inject their brains out makes for a healthy society.

[David Jamieson]

Fact: america is the number one consumer of cocaine and marijuana, as well as other illegal narcotics.

That's not a fact, but here's one, America can afford to survey it's populace and agregate that data. Most countries can't be bothered to look at their own internal problems let alone try to work on them.

:)

[doug maverick]

That's not a fact, but here's one, America can afford to survey it's populace and agregate that data. Most countries can't be bothered to look at their own internal problems let alone try to work on them.

:)

actually it is a fact. dnt believe me, go look it up. thats what the interent is suppose to be for. although london does have alot of crack heads now, looks like dc in the eighties.

[BoulderDawg]

On the argument of legalizing all drugs......

To start with what percentage of auto accidents are alcohol related? Now we are going to add every drug known to man to that list of things that you can buy at your corner store? I think I'll stop driving.

It's a rare occasion that I do any drugs but when I do I have no problems in finding what I need when I get ready to party. I'm not so sure I want all drugs made available to any adult who has the money to buy them.

If I ran the world I would legalize weed and outlaw alcohol and cigarettes.

[David Jamieson]

actually it is a fact. dnt believe me, go look it up. thats what the interent is suppose to be for. although london does have alot of crack heads now, looks like dc in the eighties.

you didn't read my post.

does china study it's addicts? does russia? does india?

how many countries can afford to aggregate data they collect fom their populace?
how many bother?

not many.

cocaine and heroin goes around the world and a lot of it is used right where it's produced.

believe me, colombia has a coke problem and india has a heroin problem and so on, they just don't compile stats on it like america does to justify it's continued support of criminals by keeping these drugs illegal, failing to control them and not taking the opportunity to get a tax base that is pretty strong , not to mention an opportunity to capitalize on teh medical benefits that otherwise illegal drugs offer.

it's a scam, there are no "facts", only smoke and mirrors and memes.

[Kansuke]

to justify it's continued support of criminals by keeping these drugs illegal, failing to control them and not taking the opportunity to get a tax base that is pretty strong , not to mention an opportunity to capitalize on teh medical benefits that otherwise illegal drugs offer.



........................ :rolleyes:

[Faruq]

Anybody read "Confessions of An Economic Hitman"? From what I remember, it had some interesting things to say about the drug war.

[Hardwork108]

believe me, colombia has a coke problem

I can only comment on Colombia because I live here now and I can say that I have seen more coke during my time in London and in Rio de Janeiro than I have seen here.

Of course it exists and there are addicts here everywhere where drugs are available but it is worth considering cultural factors as well when one discusses drugs.

The family unit is a lot stronger in countries such as Colombia than most (not all) of Western Europe and North America. Since I was a kid I have seen drugs all over the place.

I had lived in the UK when I was younger and during my school days I would see drugs brought in by various classroom d!ck heads. What would follow would be a frenzy of kids begging to try this stuff out while I and a couple friends would walk away in hurry from the idiot's fraternity.

The designed break down of family values in many Western countries has not only contributed to their drug (consumption) problems but also to other delinquencies!

This is the cultural level of the problem!

[Hardwork108]

Anybody read "Confessions of An Economic Hitman"? From what I remember, it had some interesting things to say about the drug war.

That book is on my list. It is apparently an amazing book.

Here is an interesting interview with its writer, John Perkins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WstddMJZQ

[Reverend Tap]

Excellent post.:)

As you put it as well, the problem is that many drug consumers go on to hurt more people either physcially, psychologically and or financially (including through criminal acts). The fact is the best option is to ban the d@mn things and punish severely any drug trafficers and when I say severely I mean severely!

On the other hand social and powerful media campaigns against the use of drugs and their consequences should be required by law.

I don't believe that giving everyone and their grandmothers the right to smoke, snort and inject their brains out makes for a healthy society.

The problem that derails that whole argument is that prohibition doesn't work. Legal or otherwise, people are gonna get high in one form or another, and it's much, MUCH easier to control when it's legal.

[Kansuke]

Yeah, that's why pet tigers, home anthrax kits, and personal nuclear weapons should be legal. I mean, who are these fools kidding? People just want them more because they are forbidden. Just think of the tax revenue you could get. Plus, um, alcohol is really, really bad too.

[David Jamieson]

I think people are too stupid to use drugs responsibly, in any form. I'm on the far end of the spectrum, and I say ban tobacco and alcohol too. Apparently our population at large is so stupid that they happily destroy their lives and bodies, expecting us to foot the bill when they get emphysema, their livers give out, or they slam into a family of four coming home from vacation.

Again, the "it's just meeeee" argument is pointless and ignorant, because someone will eventually have to either care for you or put you in jail for doing something stupid because you absolutely HAD to alter your brain in order to make life either tolerable or enjoyable. F' em.

yes, people do stupid things. I would prefer that they pay in cash to get messed up so that a portion of that money can go to their future health care thereby by passing their natural stupidity.

everybody alters their brains every day in the environment they live in or via the food they eat or water they drink.

seeking to control people results in loss of control utterly.

unless you're prepared to kill everyone, don't even bother with that tack because historically it has been shown to fail time and again.

only by bringing it (the substances not the people) under controlled rule of law can we remove the criminal aspect from it and responsibly use peoples sorrows to help them in the long run.

[Faruq]

That book is on my list. It is apparently an amazing book.

Here is an interesting interview with its writer, John Perkins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WstddMJZQ

Very interesting book. Having gotten sick of "great" or "important" books accumulating on my book shelf, I just ordered the audio book from Amazon. His view on the drug situation in places like Colombia and Afghanistan is certainly not what you see on CNN or ABC World News Tonight. lol

[GreenCloudCLF]

The only form of control that works is the Death Star (Please board up the exhaust vent...)

[Drake]

yes, people do stupid things. I would prefer that they pay in cash to get messed up so that a portion of that money can go to their future health care thereby by passing their natural stupidity.

everybody alters their brains every day in the environment they live in or via the food they eat or water they drink.

seeking to control people results in loss of control utterly.

unless you're prepared to kill everyone, don't even bother with that tack because historically it has been shown to fail time and again.

only by bringing it (the substances not the people) under controlled rule of law can we remove the criminal aspect from it and responsibly use peoples sorrows to help them in the long run.

Historically, it has also been done half-assed, so I don't find that to be relevant. Validating drug use will only make the problem worse, much like how alcoholism and lung cancer strikes millions of Americans, costs billions, if not trillions in accidents, deaths, and hospitalizations, and generally wreaks havoc on society. Prohibition didn't work? Ok, fair enough. It failed for a number of reasons. But what we have now is far worse. Try explaining to a mother why her daughter died. Because someone had the right to drink. Because there is NOTHING in place to keep that person from hopping into his car. Because we don't want to infringe on their "freedoms". Spare me the liberty or death argument, because I don't buy it. Spare me the "prohibition don't wurk" speech, because we know that. It was a half-assed effort, but I'm sure it saved a few lives.

[SifuAbel]

Spare me the "prohibition don't wurk" speech, because we know that. It was a half-assed effort, but I'm sure it saved a few lives.


No it didn't. People drank more during prohibition then after. A 10 year old is less likely to score a six pack of beer now than he is to score a doobie. Legalization will curtail child exposure. You can ban whatever you want, people will find a way to get it. Especially if its taboo.

[GreenCloudCLF]

No it didn't. People drank more during prohibition then after.
Verifiable sources on this comment?

[Reverend Tap]

Yeah, that's why pet tigers, home anthrax kits, and personal nuclear weapons should be legal. I mean, who are these fools kidding? People just want them more because they are forbidden. Just think of the tax revenue you could get. Plus, um, alcohol is really, really bad too.

Yeah, those are all so comparable to drug use and so widespread in society. :rolleyes:

Please. It's not like I'm saying everything will magically get better if various substances are legalized. But statistics from other countries have shown usage rates do tend to decline post-legalization, and it's much easier to keep things associated with drug use rather safer when they're out in the open. Or would you rather go the other way and have people get drunk on bathtub hooch with who-knows-what in it and likely cause even MORE problems than alcoholics and drunk drivers do now?

Dude, I'm a cab driver. It's not like I'm insulated from the reality of what drugs and alcohol do to people. I take slobbering drunks to bars at 7AM. Even the people who get in my cab who AREN'T on something generally have stories. But as ugly as that can be, and as many problems and tragedies as that causes, you can't solve the problem by plugging your ears and going "la la la it's illegal now." It's going to continue regardless, and the only responsible way to address that is openly and with the FACT well in mind that intoxicating substances always have been and likely always will be part of life as a human being for a large percentage of the population. Anything else is sticking your head in the sand and pretending life is nicer and more Disney-esque than it is.

In all honesty, you wanna see fewer drug-related tragedies, the thing to focus on is elimination of poverty.

[Kansuke]

Oh, is that all?

[BoulderDawg]

No it didn't. People drank more during prohibition then after. A 10 year old is less likely to score a six pack of beer now than he is to score a doobie. Legalization will curtail child exposure. You can ban whatever you want, people will find a way to get it. Especially if its taboo.


This may sound selfish but a ten year buying booze or a "Doobie" for that matter is not a threat to me. However a 24 year old buying alcohol (or drugs) at a corner store and then getting in his car and driving is very much a threat.

At the very least making drugs or alcohol illegal makes it harder to get for the average person. As I've said before I've heard stats that say on weekend nights over half the people on the road having been drinking......now add drugs that can be easily obtained at the corner "sustance" store and it's a recipe to hurt a lot of innocent people.

Aside from that I have no qualms with anybody doing anything to thier body....as long as it doesn't hurt others. I know plenty of people who maybe once or twice a year (Special occasions) might do some fairly hard drugs.....as long as they can handle it...go for it!

[Hardwork108]

This may sound selfish but a ten year buying booze or a "Doobie" for that matter is not a threat to me. However a 24 year old buying alcohol (or drugs) at a corner store and then getting in his car and driving is very much a threat.

That is a good point. Add to that a 24 year old who may be in a desperate fix but does not have the money and is willing to do anything to anyone to get it, then the scenario gets even worse.


Aside from that I have no qualms with anybody doing anything to thier body....as long as it doesn't hurt others. I know plenty of people who maybe once or twice a year (Special occasions) might do some fairly hard drugs.....as long as they can handle it...go for it!

You know many if not most of the most powerful countries in the West have governments that can't wait to find an excuse to spy on their citizens or to limit their democratic rights and so on. So far they have used the "war on terrorism"; "war on drugs" as excuses.

Imagine if they legalized drugs and it all went wrong with crime going up; with car and other accidents going up; with an increase in general "dumbness" in society because most people were whacked out of their brains at some time during the day. Wouldn't that give the government the excuse to come down hard and take away some more civil/democratic rights from the citizens?

The scenario that I described does not seem that far fetched to me.:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You wanna increase the sale of anything?
Make it illegal.

[David Jamieson]

Historically, it has also been done half-assed, so I don't find that to be relevant. Validating drug use will only make the problem worse, much like how alcoholism and lung cancer strikes millions of Americans, costs billions, if not trillions in accidents, deaths, and hospitalizations, and generally wreaks havoc on society. Prohibition didn't work? Ok, fair enough. It failed for a number of reasons. But what we have now is far worse. Try explaining to a mother why her daughter died. Because someone had the right to drink. Because there is NOTHING in place to keep that person from hopping into his car. Because we don't want to infringe on their "freedoms". Spare me the liberty or death argument, because I don't buy it. Spare me the "prohibition don't wurk" speech, because we know that. It was a half-assed effort, but I'm sure it saved a few lives.

Drug use is validated now through the fda and big pharma and the medical associations that give the green light to prescribing drug therapy for virtually every affliction real or perceived known to man.

There are technologies available that would prevent a person from driving while intoxicated. But there is no legislation making them mandatory in cars like say a seatbelt.

You are arguing apples and oranges. Legalization of recreational drugs only means an ability to control, tax and benefit from them. Why would you want to enact control laws that impede freedoms and encourage criminals to profit?

making recreational drugs illegal only supports crime and criminal endeavours. I'd rather they be legal, taxed, controlled and distributed by the people and for the people.

there's no getting around the fact that as long as they are illegal, criminals will continue to profit from them.

[Baqualin]

Anybody read "Confessions of An Economic Hitman"? From what I remember, it had some interesting things to say about the drug war.

Thanks for the heads up....... bought it yesterday and I couldn't put it down.
BQ

[Hardwork108]

Very interesting book. Having gotten sick of "great" or "important" books accumulating on my book shelf, I just ordered the audio book from Amazon. His view on the drug situation in places like Colombia and Afghanistan is certainly not what you see on CNN or ABC World News Tonight. lol

Very true.:)

And that is because the media is controlled. Apparently the drug plantations and exports have increased in size since the US invasion of Afghanistan. That says a lot about the morality of the people who run the world.;):mad:

[SifuAbel]

Verifiable sources on this comment?

http://www.druglibrary.org/prohibitionresults.htm

Other sources note that legal saloons were replaced by 5 to 10 times more speak easys.

[Yao Sing]

on this you make a good point, one that I have noticed for years - specifically, the massive preponderance of anti-depressants - I think that something like 30-50% of the population is on these things? add in the anti-anxiety meds and I can't imagine what the numbers are; while these make people more "functional", it's still unsettling, because it is so common yet goes largely unnoticed;

The worst is the youngsters that are put on adderall and such, and some are court ordered "for their own good". I know someone who the school had him put his kid on it for ADD and now the poor kid looks like the walking dead. Plus it gets tehm used to taking pills regularly.


It's almost ironic...

I am a vocal advocate for wide-spread legalization. And yet I've only used 3 advil in the last year and that was when I had a simultaneous ear ache and tooth ache on the same side of my head. :p

We live in an over-medicated society.

I used to get a lot of junk mail for smoking because of signing petitions. I don't smoke but believe everyone has the right to make their own decisions. So just because I support the freedom of choice everyone thinks I'm a smoker.


Nah, pretty typical, according to my doctor I am the biggest freak he has ever had, in the years he has been my doctor he has never prescribed anything to me other than the cure for Ulcers when it was found that it was a bacteria that causes it.
Never even had a prescription for tylenol 3, LOL !
No pain killers, no medication of any kind.
Of course, I am immortal, so...
:p

You go to the doctor? Why?

I worked with a guyu that had top get a prostate exam. I asked him why. He said "you know, they say over forty you should get an exam every year". I asked who "they" were, the ones making money off prostate exams? It's like the diamond industry telling you how much you should spend on an engagement ring. Conflict of interest.
l

there are a lot of blubbering puzzies out there though who run for medication every time they stub their toes. Manginas is what they are.

That's why we are swamped with antibiotic resistant viruses and super bugs, overuse of antibiotics.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/04/mexico.general/index.html

Anyone who buys and uses illegal narcotics is funding the destruction of our Southern neighbor.

Have you heard about the recent beheading of the police chief down there? Seems the drug gangs are winning.

[Faruq]

Thanks for the heads up....... bought it yesterday and I couldn't put it down.
BQ

Yeah, it had me listening so much I couldn't do anything else. That and the Money Masters documentary are two things no one else I know knows about, and no one I mention them to will check out. I have no way to verify if the info in them is true or not, so anyone who checks either one out please post your opinion.

[SimonM]

I used to get a lot of junk mail for smoking because of signing petitions. I don't smoke but believe everyone has the right to make their own decisions. So just because I support the freedom of choice everyone thinks I'm a smoker.



I think that cigarettes should not be illegal.

What I also think is that where they are to be used should be proscribed.

I think that, likewise, cannabis should be legal.

But that where it is smoked should be proscribed in the same manner as tobacco.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sometimes when I see what is around me and I wonder what I can do, I think of this:

[Reverend Tap]

I think that cigarettes should not be illegal.

What I also think is that where they are to be used should be proscribed.

I think that, likewise, cannabis should be legal.

But that where it is smoked should be proscribed in the same manner as tobacco.

Honestly, this sort of thing is probably the best overall solution.

I'm big on allowing the most personal liberty possible to everyone, but there is the quandary of what to do when my freedom to act in a certain way can be damaging to you. "My freedom to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose," and all that (unless we're sparring :p ).

Making the substances that people use legal, but designating specific places for their use where it, and the users' behavior, can be kept under control, and disallowing it elsewhere, is likely the best compromise.

I would also favor, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, requiring breathalysers in cars as we do other safety features. There is, after all, no right to drive intoxicated (this issue would also be helped by a large-scale expansion of public transportation, but that's an issue for another time).

[uki]

everything should be legal so that it can be taxed and controlled and taken out of the hands of criminals.if there is no laws to break, there would be no criminals to break them. :)

laws=crime=punishment

problem, reaction, solution... controlled outcome, 100% of the time. :D

[David Jamieson]

if there is no laws to break, there would be no criminals to break them. :)

laws=crime=punishment

problem, reaction, solution... controlled outcome, 100% of the time. :D

laws = order and a reasonable expectation of contribution within a social construct.

While I agree there are many laws that merely create criminals there are obvious reasons for having crime and punishment.

how do you feel about murder? should it be dealt with with due process of law or would a lynch mob be more fitting or should it just be excused out of hand?

what about theft? no laws for that? Child molestation? Should we just collectively ignore these things or would you agree a system of laws is a better idea?

And if not rule of law, then what model would you put to society in order for it to function harmoniously?

even nature has laws.

[Hardwork108]

I have a student who is a pharmacist in Target. She says the majority (around 90 %) of her patients are in for pain meds, anti-depressants/mood elevators, and anti psychotic drugs. Pretty scary, huh?

The really scary bit is the fact that this is no accident!

I can see the time in the future when the medical establishment turns around and says "whoops we made a 'mistake'". However, there is no mistake in it.

The population is being dopped and dumbed down one way or the other wether it is through prescription drugs for aften imaginery problems; food additives or even idiotic media (tv,films, etc.)programing.

Any legalisation legalising the illegal narcotics is going to help the people who are behind this cruel agenda.

[Hardwork108]

on this you make a good point, one that I have noticed for years - specifically, the massive preponderance of anti-depressants - I think that something like 30-50% of the population is on these things? add in the anti-anxiety meds and I can't imagine what the numbers are; while these make people more "functional", it's still unsettling, because it is so common yet goes largely unnoticed;

Furthermore, there is nothing normal about this situation and I believe that it was planned and is being carried out in a premeditated manner.


personally, I am in favor of legalization, but what concerns me is how to prevent people in significantly altered states of consciousness from harming other people, and probably there should be a minimum age


I think that if drugs are ever legalised then each country should provide an island where all these junkies can go and stay where they can smoke, snort and inject their brains out, so that the only people they hurt are themselves, while the politicians who legalised the drugs reap the profits.

Of course the rest of the population who will be stoned on the prescription drugs, alcohol and the food additives will be too dopped to do anything about it.

Besides, it is likely that their minds will be occupied with the latest Middle Eastern man with the beard the intelligence agencies choose to terrorize them with.

[taai gihk yahn]

The worst is the youngsters that are put on adderall and such, and some are court ordered "for their own good". I know someone who the school had him put his kid on it for ADD and now the poor kid looks like the walking dead. Plus it gets tehm used to taking pills regularly.
I work with a lot of kids with this and similar diagnoses (ADD, ADHD, OCD, Autism spectrum, etc.); I would say that there is a large continuum - in other words, some kids who are on meds who should not be; others who were out of their freakin' minds whose quality of life has improved dramatically as a result of meds; and some who you really don't know if it makes a difference or not; honestly, a lot of it has to do with parents' personalities as well: some just put 'em on and leave 'em; others try to use the meds to give the kids some space for other things to "work", and try to get them off as they improve; some parents like to play pharmacist and screw around with dosages (and not tell anyone, of course - but we can always tell, LOL); it's a mixed bag;


That's why we are swamped with antibiotic resistant viruses and super bugs, overuse of antibiotics.
or rather misuse - as in people not finishing the dosage properly; but yes, also overuse - for example, my son used abx. once, when he had a real "deep" persistent cough, at ~1 years of age; but our pediatrician had told us to use them several times when he noted some fluid in his ears - but my son was asymptomatic, so we decided not to go with them, and I am convinced we made the right choice (of course, my wife is an OBGYN MD, but was originally trained / practiced in Latvia / former USSR, and she has a slightly different perspective of things - she is definitely of the opinion that they over / misuse abx. and other drugs here, esp. w/peds population)


Furthermore, there is nothing normal about this situation and I believe that it was planned and is being carried out in a premeditated manner.
well, I don't know if I would qualify it that way - I think "normal" is a highly subjective term - things are such as they are - it's all about input / output - normal implies a logos to which everything else is referenced, and I don't think that's quite the way things work in general; this is ultimately a Taoist perspective, which advocates moment to moment awareness of suchness as the means by which we "choose" our course of action - having a fixed notion of normality / morality is, from a Taoist perspective, the same as being dead.
as far as premeditated, my 'problem" with that is that it's too easy of an answer - while I have no doubt that there are folks at various "higher" levels of power trying to manipulate things, I don't think it's a uniform conspiracy - I think it's different people in power vying with each other for control in various arenas as opposed to a secret unified cabal orchestrating world events - life just isn't that clear-cut, but rather a "mess" of variables that coalesce in complex and often unpredictable ways


I think that if drugs are ever legalised then each country should provide an island where all these junkies can go and stay where they can smoke, snort and inject their brains out, so that the only people they hurt are themselves, while the politicians who legalised the drugs reap the profits.
LOL - part of me is all for that; I mean, it's not as simple as that, but it is appealing; personally, I agree with what one of my old friends used to say (and Ross will chuckle at this, knowing the person in question as well), " give 'em all the drugs they want, but put 'em to work to rebuild our nation's crumbling infrastructure" (this was in the '80's, I guess this guy was a bit prescient, to say the least, LOL); ok, well, maybe that's not the answer either...


Of course the rest of the population who will be stoned on the prescription drugs, alcohol and the food additives will be too dopped to do anything about it.
I don't know about the food additives - I think it's a continuum - some people are going to be more succeptable to their effect than others; doesn't mean I won't avoid them - I do; but there are other things I'd be more concerned about;

as for meds - I think it's pretty complex - a real miasma of patients, docs, insurance companies, drug companies - I mean, my wife is in the middle of it, but she's sort of "immune" coming from very different background - she actually knows her clinical stuff really well, seeing as she used to practice in a country where you got to work early so that you could get the ambulance that had the defibrillator as opposed to the one that didn't! so, she doesn't just accept what she's told without really doing her homework, and as a result, she tries to prescribe things very consciously, and not over prescribe either; but at the same time if a patient busts her butt about getting a certain med for some silly reason, she won't overly argue with them after she has explained the risks / benefits / precautions 3 times and they still think they know better (although she drew the line at the woman who wanted to use "Plan B" as her primary means of birth control, LOL);

personally, what I see is a net effect of changes over the last 100 years or so (although really, I could argue that the "problem" really started when we made the switch from nomadic to agrarian-based culture...): starting with being bathed in a range of EMF due to radio / TV / etc. - something we never had before, and that, IMPE, is having a subtle effect on our genetic structure (can't prove it, just a highly subjective opinion) resulting in the increase in the developmental / congenital / learning / sensorymotor processing disorders we are seeing now (I work in pediatrics - the numbers of kids in special ed., getting related services like OT, PT, speech, etc. have increased dramatically in the last 5 - 10 years - and every therapist I talk to about their impression has the same opinion - it's a real silent epidemic that we will notice only when this population hits maturity, IMPE...); couple that with changes in diet, not in terms of additives / coloring, but rather changes in levels of fiber, dairy / meat intake, etc. - not only on intake end but production as well (read Robbins' "Diet for a New America" for the skinny on this), and also activity level vis-vis the use of the automobile: we don't walk as much; and walking, IME, is one of nature's great "cures", both physically (pumps lymph) and emotionally (my sifu took me out a few times for 2-3 hour "walking cure" around Manhattan over the first few years I was with him back in my 20's after some GF break ups - always worked wonders!); and of course, watching TV - not only the content, but the actual activity - from the physical posture we adopt watching, to the way it "trances" the brain (TBH, my son watches the tube a bit more than I'd care for - but no where near as much as most kids - and I am actively working on decreasing it as well...)

personally, I don't think it's a sinister plot: I think that is too "simple" of an answer, really - rather, I see it more as humanities penchant for "leisure" based living; I agree that there are people taking advantage of this trend, but I don't think it's an organized, premeditated plot with an end goal of population enslavement in mind - I see it as a "natural" progression of humanity's biggest problem, which is our neurotic self-absorption with the "self", coupled with the desire to avoid emotional / physical suffering; so we developed technology to make things easier; but when you make things "easier" too much, then the organism is not challenged in ways that help it maintain its "natural" toughness; not to say that technology is inherently bad - but using it in a balanced way is incredibly challenging, and we as a species has failed at that; anyway, as we solve old problems, we create new ones, so we come up with further technological buffers; as a result, there are too many of us living for too long (you can have one or the other; not both), and now we see the results starting to take place (mainly the planetary climate going out of balance - Gaia is getting piszed and is starting to have her own "immune response"...)

see, I do think that we as a "society" is on the road to a major correction - the whole system is way out of balance, and, like the body, the planet can compensate for a time; but then you hit a watershed / event horizon, then you have a state change - basically complexity theory is what describes this (so does Taoism, of course); you hit a point where the system can't maintain itself, and it changes rapidly into something very different; and that is where we are headed, I believe; which is why I don't buy the "conspiracy" theory - because the guys theoretically running the show are going to be just as subject to a change of this nature as anyone, so the direction that they are supposedly driving everyone towards will be equally destabilizing to them as it will to everyone else;