Is kau sau (kow sau) a recognized technique in every lineage?

[edseas2]

Thoughts?

Ed

[rindge]

Ed, I practice in the Dallas, TX area with students of sifu Cottrell and they use kau sau. This is the first time I have come across kau sau.

Rindge

[Matrix]

It's in the dummy form, so I would guess that it's pretty common. Can't comment on "every" lineage.

[Vajramusti]

Of course.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Kao Sau?

Of course.

Same here, although I wouldn't go as far to say it originates on the wooden man sets.

Method of huen sau imho.

[Matrix]

Same here, although I wouldn't go as far to say it originates on the wooden man sets.I didn't say it "orignates" there. I just pointed out that it is included within the dummy form.

[Vajramusti]

It is there in the slt that I do everyday.

joy chaudhuri

[rindge]

Joy, if you don't mind me asking, where in slt is kau sao? I might be thinking of something else.

Thanks

Rindge


It is there in the slt that I do everyday.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

After part 2 of the sil lim tao, i,e., after the section where you have the gum saos and then the spreading arm fan saos.

The next part begins with the section where you do the kao with the left hand towards the right shoulder, then you snap a reverse jut to the left while pointing fingers to the center line then do a chanjeong front wards at the neck level-then you do the huen, close the fist and return elbow to the side. Some folks do a pak instead of a kow there- but you have already done the pak earlier after the slow motions...no need to repeat the pak there.
Except for the huen, fist and return of the elbow to the side you generally do not repeat motions in the form apart from the repeats in the slow section where you do the tan, wu and fok.

The kow has a slight hooking look to it compared to the pak and goes more towards the shoulder than the pak. The kow among other uses when well practiced can control some punches- hook type coming close towards your head. Using a different structure and facing, a western boxer could say that a parry is an equivalent.

You can do timing and flow work with the kow.
Hope this helps.Regards,

Joy Chaudhuri

[Graychuan]

After part 2 of the sil lim tao, i,e., after the section where you have the gum saos and then the spreading arm fan saos.

The next part begins with the section where you do the kao with the left hand towards the right shoulder, then you snap a reverse jut to the left while pointing fingers to the center line then do a chanjeong front wards at the neck level

Im right with you here, Joy. We call the Kao Sao a 'receive inward' and the next move a Moy Jet(receive outward) and then the palm.


The kow has a slight hooking look to it compared to the pak and goes more towards the shoulder than the pak.

Joy Chaudhuri


Exactly

[Phil Redmond]

After part 2 of the sil lim tao, i,e., after the section where you have the gum saos and then the spreading arm fan saos.

The next part begins with the section where you do the kao with the left hand towards the right shoulder, then you snap a reverse jut to the left while pointing fingers to the center line then do a chanjeong front wards at the neck level-then you do the huen, close the fist and return elbow to the side. Some folks do a pak instead of a kow there- but you have already done the pak earlier after the slow motions...no need to repeat the pak there.
Except for the huen, fist and return of the elbow to the side you generally do not repeat motions in the form apart from the repeats in the slow section where you do the tan, wu and fok.

The kow has a slight hooking look to it compared to the pak and goes more towards the shoulder than the pak. The kow among other uses when well practiced can control some punches- hook type coming close towards your head. Using a different structure and facing, a western boxer could say that a parry is an equivalent.

You can do timing and flow work with the kow.
Hope this helps.Regards,

Joy Chaudhuri
Hi Joy, you used to term fan sao. That might be a faahk (whisking) hand to us. I'm also not sure if your kow sao is our toi or wan sao. Is there some place I can see it online?

[Phil Redmond]

Hi again Joy, is photo number 9 on the link below what you'd call kau sau?
http://www.awcaonline.com/forms/mukyanchong.html

[Vajramusti]

Hi Phil- unfortunately i am a tech nincompoop on videos and stuff. "ED" of Windy City Wing Chun
may have something on his site.
I dont know TWC terms and labels vary from time to time in wing chun and so do pronunciations.
My fak is in my biu jee. But some folks call our fun-fak. But there is a difference.
Fun sao -the palms are facing down in slt whereas the fak in biu jee has the palms facing out for the front fak.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Thats a completely different school- some leung Ting influence in it possibly.
Photo #9 if I saw the right pic is not our kow sow.
Regards, Joy

[Phil Redmond]

Thats a completely different school- some leung Ting influence in it possibly.
Photo #9 if I saw the right pic is not our kow sow.
Regards, Joy
Thanks Joy, I wish there was spread sheet/chart or something that explained the varied WC terminologies.

[Vajramusti]

Check:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k
at about 1.15 minutes

Regards,

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Pjil said:Thanks Joy, I wish there was spread sheet/chart or something that explained the varied WC terminologies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Phil- the following link can point to usage of terms that are fairly familiar to me.

http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

But of course
terms will vary across kung fu families. Plus as you know English representation of Chinese
varies in the case pf Cantonese terms...sao, sau etc(long live anarchy!) and pronunciation additionally is likely to vary by region and class.
The latter is true of other languages as well including English.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Check:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k
at about 1.15 minutes

Regards,

joy chaudhuri
Thanks for taking to time to post that clip. Can you explain the application of the kow sao? If it's what I think it is we have an upward and side (tarn/daahn) sao. The side daahn sao isn't in the form but you can see the upward daahn (some people say tarn), in the form around 3:16 here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8kwEt6RvYk
I did the form "by the numbers" so our new students could see it better. The form has dynamics that I didn't do there.

[Phil Redmond]

Pjil said:Thanks Joy, I wish there was spread sheet/chart or something that explained the varied WC terminologies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Phil- the following link can point to usage of terms that are fairly familiar to me.

http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

But of course
terms will vary across kung fu families. Plus as you know English representation of Chinese
varies in the case pf Cantonese terms...sao, sau etc(long live anarchy!) and pronunciation additionally is likely to vary by region and class.
The latter is true of other languages as well including English.

joy chaudhuri
Now that's a glossary. :)
Thx,

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for the link to the clip on your slt. I looked carefully at that part from about 3.16 to 3.19.
There are differences in details between that part and what we do. I am sure that you have your reasons for what you do.

You do two fak saos earlier while I do a fan sao. So its not just a difference in labels but a difference in the motions. Our openings are different- you do circling feet
and we dont- not in the slt. Later in the bj.
Your gum sao-s pressing palms go away from the body whereas mine doesnt.
My kao sao turns in and up more than what you have around 3.16. My kao is used on the dummy's upper hands in a similar way.

Thanks for sharing. Ed of Windy City doing the slt and the glossary that I posted hopefully provides additional background and clarification. I work a lot on timing the kow sao by itself as well as against close quarters attacks and in "sparring"- without gloves.

I respect what you do.

Good wishes and thanks for the link and the open-ness in conversation across lines..Its good to discuss similarities and differences without sarcasm and invidious comments. Good wishes.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Tom Kagan]

Check:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k
at about 1.15 minutes

Regards,

joy chaudhuri

At 1:15? Moy Yat used to call that GeenSao - 'scared hand'. Since it was essentially an 'off center', 'on center', movement, the story goes that Yip Man pulled it out of SiuNimTao because it didn't fit the essence of the form and was already in BiuJe.

[Phil Redmond]

At 1:15? Moy Yat used to call that GeenSao - 'scared hand'. Since it was essentially an 'off center', 'on center', movement, the story goes that Yip Man pulled it out of SiuNimTao because it didn't fit the essence of the form and was already in BiuJe.
That's the reason a cross lineage glossary would be nice. I've been doing WC for nearly 40 years and I hear terms that I'd never heard of before.

[Ultimatewingchun]

At 1:15? Moy Yat used to call that GeenSao - 'scared hand'. Since it was essentially an 'off center', 'on center', movement, the story goes that Yip Man pulled it out of SiuNimTao because it didn't fit the essence of the form and was already in BiuJe.

***IT is a move that takes the opponent's arm OFF the line so that you can then attack ON the line. And it requires a simultaneous twist at the hips to deflect/redirect the punch away from you. That's what Moy Yat taught when I was studying with him - and it makes sense to me.

He taught it as part of the bil jee form.

And btw, it can be used with the Butterfly Swords as well.

In empty hand fighting, the only application I've ever used it for (it's very rare) is when someone comes with an overhand punch and you manage to get to the outside of it with your "cross arm" hand (ie.- his right arm vs. your right arm).

Not a very likely scenario in today's world (getting to the outside of his right overhand with your right - but possible, I suppose).

Probably one of those moves designed to defend against a "Choy Li Fut" long arm overhand punching attack.

[Ali. R]

I’m here on a clip doing a “Kow Sao”, performing it in a non-prearranged setting out of chi sao @ mark 30 on this clip…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAII5o7SaI


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Vajramusti]

It's good to have this discussion in spite of "the tyranny of words" and the confusions that can result. Meeting each other could make things clearer than " seeing" things on the net. Logically, lots of slippage can occur between what we think we see and making inferences..
The Kow that we do is pretty fundamental and appears to be present in several different lineages...perhaps not all .As far as I can tell..
Even though there are differences in lineages, good folks can make their system work for them.
There is enough commonality of principles - directness, economy, interceptions, inter-relatedness between attack and defense- to have dialogues within the style.

However, the differences are also considerable-let's face it there are differences in the details of the stances- making for variances in chum kiu based motions. The kow in our slt will adjust with chor ma to intercept things from the inside or outside. The fok in chi sao can quickly change to a controlling kow motion when needed. That turning kow is strengthened by the kow in the mok jong motion. You don't have to wait IMO for biu gee to learn and use the kow IMO.

The kow IMO as I know is very useful in combat applications. And it can be sharpened in man sao
work.

A cross lineage glossary can be problematical- again because of the tyranny of words. We don't always use them in the same way. But attempts to clarify don't hurt.

joy chaudhuri

[Tom Kagan]

Phil... If you had that glossary perhaps your last 40 years would not have been quite as interesting. ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Look up the word Kau Sau-they seem to have different meanings!

Kau sau or kow sau = hooking palm control


Kau Sau = Circling block


Kau Sau Cross Hand


http://www.wingchunsg.com/Terminology.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun_terms


http://www.wingchun.ie/terminology.html

[Vajramusti]

Language and definitions can point towards an action but is not the action itself.
Knowing the action is the key.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes from practice one begins to understand the action! very true!



Language and definitions can point towards an action but is not the action itself.
Knowing the action is the key.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Look up the word Kau Sau-they seem to have different meanings!

Kau sau or kow sau = hooking palm control


Kau Sau = Circling block


Kau Sau Cross Hand


http://www.wingchunsg.com/Terminology.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun_terms

Cantonese has 7 (some say 8) tones. The word hai can also be written haih which denotes a lower tone. There are also accent marks that can denote tone.
Hai can mean a point in space, a shoe, the verb 'to be', an anatomical part of a female body, a crab, etc. We have some native Cantonese speakers in our school so when I describe the diu mah (the cat stance like positionin the LDBK), I have to let them know that my tones might be off. With regards to the pole form the diu mah means hanging horse. If I say it wrong it could mean (blank) your mother.


http://www.wingchun.ie/terminology.html
Cantonese has 7 (some say 8) tones. The word hai can also be written haih which denotes a lower tone. There are also accent marks that can denote tone.
Hai can mean a point in space, a shoe, the verb 'to be', an anatomical part of a female body, a crab, etc. Though they might sound the same to an untrained ear they do have different characters. We have some native Cantonese speakers in our school so when I describe the diu mah (the cat stance like positionin the LDBK), I have to let them know that my tones might be off. With regards to the pole form the diu mah means hanging horse. If I say it wrong it could mean (blank) your mother.
We have to see the Chinese characters for kow/kau to really know.

[Vajramusti]

Tone differences can get you into trouble in quite a few languages.
In one American Indian language- if you miss a tone ---instead of saying-you want a smoke?
(cigarette or tobacco -that is)
It may come across as- you want a f?

In kung fu IMO--the motion is the key- words can be inaccurate substitutes.
Plus-long live the anarchy of English terms for Cantonese words despite the Yale system.
Then you have differentiations of locality and class in speaking.
Of course as Phil pointed out- the written character gives you a better idea.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

I think we are getting off target...mainly because I don't anything about the tones of cantonese....So sorry. i can not even begin to comment on wording...


But what about the Kau Sau technique do you think its good for actually fighting?




Cantonese has 7 (some say 8) tones. The word hai can also be written haih which denotes a lower tone. There are also accent marks that can denote tone.
Hai can mean a point in space, a shoe, the verb 'to be', an anatomical part of a female body, a crab, etc. Though they might sound the same to an untrained ear they do have different characters. We have some native Cantonese speakers in our school so when I describe the diu mah (the cat stance like positionin the LDBK), I have to let them know that my tones might be off. With regards to the pole form the diu mah means hanging horse. If I say it wrong it could mean (blank) your mother.
We have to see the Chinese characters for kow/kau to really know.

[Phil Redmond]

I think we are getting off target...mainly because I don't anything about the tones of cantonese....So sorry. i can not even begin to comment on wording...


But what about the Kau Sau technique do you think its good for actually fighting?
We are not getting off target because we can't come to a conclusion as to what kau sau is or means. We'd have to see the character to know for sure. And there's no way around that.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well i think its best to show each technique separatly...That would be nice to have a bunch videos showing only techniques!



We are not getting off target because we can't come to a conclusion as to what kau sau is or means. We'd have to see the character to know for sure. And there's no way around that.

[Phil Redmond]

Well i think its best to show each technique separatly...That would be nice to have a bunch videos showing only techniques!
I agree. Since there exist differences in WC terminologies that would be a good idea.

[CFT]

So Joy & Phil, are your "kau/kow" sau actions the same? At least as far as intended functional outcome is concerned?

The only thing that comes to my mind with the character "kau" is hooking/detaining.

扣 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%A6%A9

It is also the same character for a clasp/hook/button so online descriptions you might find will be for the noun rather than the verb.

[Phil Redmond]

So Joy & Phil, are your "kau/kow" sau actions the same? At least as far as intended functional outcome is concerned?

The only thing that comes to my mind with the character "kau" is hooking/detaining.

扣 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%A6%A9

It is also the same character for a clasp/hook/button so online descriptions you might find will be for the noun rather than the verb.

I'd have to clearly see what a kau sao looks like and it's combat app to determine if we have that movement under a different name or not.

[Vajramusti]

You got the verbal meaning right. Hooking, Detaining etc.

You don't hold on you detain very briefly without chasing hands.
When the structure is good, even with the slightest motion kow sao is a very effective motion
for many instances of control.
With coordinated footwork-there are all sorts of possibilities.
With proper timing work- it is very effective and practical.
The motion is in slt- WC 101.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

PS.
Thanks for the Chinese character and basic meaning.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

. . . The motion is in slt- WC 101. . . joy chaudhuri
That depends on the lineage. When I clearly see an app I can say for sure if it's in the different SLTs I've learned over the years.

[Phil Redmond]

Can someone show where what's called kow sao in these vids?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0uaJJsI1S4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcHD7q2tnZw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxMLp8TXno

[Vajramusti]

Phil-(on the links that you posted):
check the WSL video at 1.58 &
the Ip Man video at 1.04'

Good wishes,

Joy Chaudhuri
PS- I never assume that I am referring to all lineages.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil-(on the links that you posted):
check the WSL video at 1.58 &
the Ip Man video at 1.04'

Good wishes,

Joy Chaudhuri
PS- I never assume that I am referring to all lineages.
Thanks Joy.
Would 3:22 here be a kow sao?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8kwEt6RvYk&feature=channel_page
or 1:06 here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz8Z2D7n2Es&feature=channel_page
and 2:45 here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhN7kN0IqVs&feature=channel_page

[Yoshiyahu]

Well earlier some people stated some of the applications of Kow Sau.

So please share multiple applications for the kow sau you guys?



Phil-(on the links that you posted):
check the WSL video at 1.58 &
the Ip Man video at 1.04'

Good wishes,

Joy Chaudhuri
PS- I never assume that I am referring to all lineages.

[Vajramusti]

At 3.22 in the first link, broadly yes. There could be some differences in details.
Regards-

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share some applications of Kau Sau that you have been taught or discovered!



At 3.22 in the first link, broadly yes. There could be some differences in details.
Regards-

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks again Joy. I think I'm on the right track. If you say kow sao is hooking you can see a hooking motion in our chum kiu form around 1:31 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq5SdwQgbF8&feature=channel_page