Gary Lam video excerpt on PROPER bil gee elbow usage

[edseas2]

Enjoy!:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0JXahDZbA


Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gary is right, using elbows form long distance ( punching distance) is silly.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSRSZoslPZI

[edseas2]

He also reiterates that the ONLY appropriate time to use them is when your hand(s) is grabbed.

Ed

[edseas2]

Gary is right, using elbows form long distance ( punching distance) is silly.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSRSZoslPZI



Very nice but NOT wing chun!

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very nice but NOT wing chun!

Ed

So?
Are you saying that WC doesn't have an upward reverse elbow like that?
And if so, it is not a valid technqiue?
:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

He also reiterates that the ONLY appropriate time to use them is when your hand(s) is grabbed.

Ed

Do you have the beginning and rest of that clip?

[edseas2]

So?
Are you saying that WC doesn't have an upward reverse elbow like that?
And if so, it is not a valid technqiue?
:eek:

While it is obviously a very valid technique, its not a wc technique...

Ed

[edseas2]

Do you have the beginning and rest of that clip?

No - but maybe you can find more of it on youtube?

Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

No - but maybe you can find more of it on youtube?

Ed

I think he was refering to that particular technqiue from Bil jee. how it is done off a punch that is grabbed.

[edseas2]

Which, by the way, was the title of the original thread:

"Are bil gee elbows the most overused wing chun technique?"



Ed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which, by the way, was the title of the original thread:

"Are bil gee elbows the most overused wing chun technique?"



Ed

LOL !
Point made.

[Ultimatewingchun]

While it is obviously a very valid technique, its not a wc technique...

Ed


***OH,OH....!!! :eek:

Non wing chun technique alert....
Non wing chun technique alert....

"May day, may day, may day...."

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is not a WC technique, but I would use it anytime :

[taojkd]

Gary is right, using elbows form long distance ( punching distance) is silly.

no one argues with this. and thats the only point that gary lam is making here.



He also reiterates that the ONLY appropriate time to use them is when your hand(s) is grabbed.

Several of us argue this and, yes, it is still good wc to throw elbows at the appropriate range even though your not being grabbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0JXahDZbA
:35
Your hand is get trapped
or your hand get catched
or your hand get pulled
or you have to touch something and the power comes out (up?)

Look at his body language when he says this. He's only implying that you dont throw an elbow without some kind of bridge contact AND you never throw an elbow from punching range.

Again, no one is arguing with this. I swear, i have never met anyone who keeps putting words in my mouth. I could agree with him and he'd find a way to spin it so i'm disagreeing with him.

*continues to beat the dead horse....with elbows...but its ok, cause i have bridge contact on the horse so Gary Lam would agree with me*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F38SJyHKH94
at about 1 min he steps in with an elbow, traps his opponents hands down.

[edseas2]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;911779]This is not a WC technique, but I would use it anytime :[/QUOTE

Oh! Secret NINJA technique!

Better than WC!

Much better!


Ed

[edseas2]

no one argues with this. and thats the only point that gary lam is making here.



Several of us argue this and, yes, it is still good wc to throw elbows at the appropriate range even though your not being grabbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0JXahDZbA
:35
Your hand is get trapped
or your hand get catched
or your hand get pulled
or you have to touch something and the power comes out (up?)

Look at his body language when he says this. He's only implying that you dont throw an elbow without some kind of bridge contact AND you never throw an elbow from punching range.

Again, no one is arguing with this. I swear, i have never met anyone who keeps putting words in my mouth. I could agree with him and he'd find a way to spin it so i'm disagreeing with him.

*continues to beat the dead horse....with elbows...but its ok, cause i have bridge contact on the horse so Gary Lam would agree with me*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F38SJyHKH94
at about 1 min he steps in with an elbow, traps his opponents hands down.



And WRONG again!

Gary says:

"If your hands don't get trapped, you don't use your elbow."

Try LISTENING to what he is SAYING - instead of what you THINK he is "implying" and better yet what you THINK his "body language is saying"!

It couldn't possibly be any clearer!

Unbelievable.

Ed

[taojkd]

In the vid i posted (at the 1 min marker), his hands arent trapped. He initiates the attack. He even shows how to do the attack "wrong". In the vid you posted, he's only making the point not to throw the elbow from punching range.


Speaking of which...

- The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm

OH! THE MAXIMS! THE MAXIMS!

*can someone proof read the maxims for me and make sure that there isnt something thats states you DONT throw elbows except for this one instance...i've read them countless times, but i want to be sure*


It couldn't possibly be any clearer!
Only in your delusional mind.

[edseas2]

Sadly, you forget that the original thread concerned the overuse of the bil gee elbow.

Sadder still is your refusal to acknowledge that the only time Gary Lam says that it is appropriate to use the bil gee elbow is when you can't use your hand(s) in spite of the fact that he says this in English on his video.

Ed

[Phil Redmond]

In the case of a small woman who has not trained her small hands an elbow "could" be the way to go. Everything is relative.

[clam61]

here is an idea:

whos to say gary lam is the ultimate authority?


Sadly, you forget that the original thread concerned the overuse of the bil gee elbow.

Sadder still is your refusal to acknowledge that the only time Gary Lam says that it is appropriate to use the bil gee elbow is when you can't use your hand(s) in spite of the fact that he says this in English on his video.

Ed

[edseas2]

Perhaps YOU are?

Ed

[taojkd]

Perhaps YOU are?

Your certainly not. Its easy just quoting other people, isnt it? It means you dont actually have to experience anything first hand. No one here is claiming to be the ultimate authority. But so far, Ed, what i see is that everyone here is willing to put it on the line and test it out for themselves, except you.

Phil, Victor, clam, sanjuro, Tom, Clam, Punch, Edmund (sorry if i missed anyone else) have all stated that elbows can be effective in more ways than the one you (and so far, you alone) are clinging on to. Each within their own lineage, and each making this work in their wing chun curriculum/repertoire.

I think this concludes this thread.

[edseas2]

Your certainly not. Its easy just quoting other people, isnt it? It means you dont actually have to experience anything first hand. No one here is claiming to be the ultimate authority. But so far, Ed, what i see is that everyone here is willing to put it on the line and test it out for themselves, except you.

Phil, Victor, clam, sanjuro, Tom, Clam, Punch, Edmund (sorry if i missed anyone else) have all stated that elbows can be effective in more ways than the one you (and so far, you alone) are clinging on to. Each within their own lineage, and each making this work in their wing chun curriculum/repertoire.

I think this concludes this thread.



So, I guess YOU are then?

Apparently you don't respect Gary Lam which is NOT surprising at all. Instructor of the year, noted authority, WSL instructor for over a dozen years at Wong's school but not good enough for YOU.

Perhaps if you took the time to read the title of the thread you'd realize that you are mistaken, that, according to Gary, the bil gee elbow has only ONE place ut no, not good enough for YOU.

Sad.

Ed

[Lee Chiang Po]

The elbow can be used in many applications. It is a very short range weapon that can be used in a complete 360 degree circle around you, but it is still a short range weapon. If you are crowded to the point to where you can not punch, then neither can your opponent. You can resort to the elbow and the bil in this case. The elbow can be used in cases when you can not turn and punch, but only if you are real close in to an opponent. If he is not on top of you it is probably best to move and regain center. The elbow should not ever be considered as a primary weapon if there is any possiblilty of punching or using bil gee. I don't care what anyone says. The elbow is hard hitting, but it is not anywhere near as strong as you would imagine it to be. In order for it to be worth anything at all you would really have to use the entire body in a swinging action. This is going to get you in a very dangerous position if not real careful.
To answer the original question, I think that the elbow is probably over used in some lineages. I think that there is some myth persisting that the elbow is an extremely powerful weapon when it really isn't.

[clam61]

****, how can i argue with that.


Perhaps YOU are?

Ed

[edseas2]

****, how can i argue with that.

Correct - how could you POSSIBLY argue with that...

Ed

[Stevehans]

This is probably one of Sifu Lams weaker instructional clips that i have seen as he has done some great ones to date.

Firstly this type of elbow would only work on the average guy with no MA experience. Certainly no grappler or indeed any seasoned MA ist would trap or maintain grab in such a manner which would allow an elbow to follow.

I would say it's near impossible to pull it off the way it has demonstrated............this is clearly a 'Filler' Demo and nothing more.

I'm not saying an elbow technique is not great in dealing with traps or grabs but it would be a novice who thinks he would have a good chance of pulling it off in the same way against any half decent opponent .

Steve

[Matrix]

In the case of a small woman who has not trained her small hands an elbow "could" be the way to go. Everything is relative.Hey Phil,
Good point. Everything is relative and looking for one-size-fits-all solutions is limiting at best.
More to your point, and trying to be a bit of a devils's advocate, if the smaller person has not trained their hands and decides to use an elbow, then they need to move their feet a lot more than a person with longer legs would have to to get into the elbow range. I'm just trying to say that coming inside that way the person better have great footwork and good hands or they're asking for trouble, IMO.

Cheers,
Bill

[couch]

So, I guess YOU are then?

Apparently you don't respect Gary Lam which is NOT surprising at all. Instructor of the year, noted authority, WSL instructor for over a dozen years at Wong's school but not good enough for YOU.

Perhaps if you took the time to read the title of the thread you'd realize that you are mistaken, that, according to Gary, the bil gee elbow has only ONE place ut no, not good enough for YOU.

Sad.

Ed

Just gonna jump in to comment on this one.

I can respect an instructor and his/her opinions and ideas - but it doesn't mean I HAVE to agree with them.

Wing Chun doesn't make robots of the style. This isn't a style or system where people are supposed to look the exact same as their training partner. Everyone learns a core set of principles and ideas...this is almost always the same...and this is what links all of us as WC practitioners.

But what separates us as practitioners is our individuality...or our 'spin on the system,' if you will. And that is a GOOD thing. That's the spice of life! That has created some of the greatest WC families to date! And that, I believe, is why WC has had the ability to spread like wild-fire.

I don't want to ride of the coat tails of someone else. Do I want to learn from the likes of Gary Lam, et al? Of course! And if I can make their stuff work for me - I'll use it! But at the end of the day, it's my WC with my name & stamp on it. I'm responsible for me. I carve my own path in life. Heck...Gary Lam makes his circular motions work so well for him because he's so talented - and he's starting to call his 'spin on the system' Water Hand Wing Chun!

Are we talking about a Chum Kiu elbow or Biu Jee elbow? An elbow is an elbow. Now, perhaps, each form is telling us something about the application of it. That's more to the point of the WC story, IMO.

Best.

[punchdrunk]

at the bui gee level we must think outside the box and remove previous confinements in our thinking and training. It is the time to study other approaches and broaden our horizons. This has been a good topic but i prefer not to use terms like "the only" or "always" or "never" as really no-one can consider all possibilities and all situations.
I do find it unlikely that the downward elbow is only to be used against arm restraint, look how often it is repeated in the form.. it was obviously given a lot of significance.

[Edmund]

I don't care what anyone says. The elbow is hard hitting, but it is not anywhere near as strong as you would imagine it to be. In order for it to be worth anything at all you would really have to use the entire body in a swinging action. This is going to get you in a very dangerous position if not real careful.
To answer the original question, I think that the elbow is probably over used in some lineages. I think that there is some myth persisting that the elbow is an extremely powerful weapon when it really isn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vidKgxTURQ

Compliant demo.... He's just pretending it hurt.

Better do it the proper way when someone's holding your wrist so you can barely get your elbow up. WC101.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vidKgxTURQ

Compliant demo.... He's just pretending it hurt.

Better do it the proper way when someone's holding your wrist so you can barely get your elbow up. WC101.
Physiologically an elbow can be more powerful than a punch. And it doesn't require as much footwork as people say. That video is a good example.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . I think that there is some myth persisting that the elbow is an extremely powerful weapon when it really isn't.
You must be kidding right?? If I were to teach a woman's self defense course I wouldn't teach punches. I'd teach elbows, palm strikes, knees, etc. A woman with small untrained hands would do no real damage to an attacker bent on hurting her.

[Phil Redmond]

Any full contact fighter knows that elbows are more dangerous than punches. That's why some events including boxing don't allow elbows. Elbows don't need elaborate footwork. A simple torque of the waist is sufficient. Look at these elbow KOs;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vVH1Rmpv3g&feature=related

[Matrix]

Elbows don't need elaborate footwork. A simple torque of the waist is sufficient. Look at these elbow KOs;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vVH1Rmpv3g&feature=relatedI don't think this video shows a small untrained woman as you orginally described. And let's not confuse "great" footwork with "elaborate" footwork. Two different things, IMO. As in all things Wing Chun, simple is usually better but it still needs to be effective.

I do agree that elbows can be very effective. They're short levers that can be very powerful with waist/hip action just as you've mentioned. You just need to get in range.

[sihing]

I thought the reason why elbows are not allowed in boxing is because it causes more cuts, rather than it being more deadly or lethal.

On the street this can be bad too, as usually don't know who your fighting, and or what disease they may have. It would suck big time to get into a fight (probably for no good reason), and get bled on, to only find out you have HIV.

JR

[Mr Punch]

LOL, edseas, your lack of understanding of wing chun knows no bounds.

Phil, good points, Edmund too.

Sihing, if you think the reason elbows aren't allowed in boxing is because they cause cuts, you're joining the idiot bus... elbows aren't allowed in boxing because boxing only allows punches, and another FYI: you won't get HIV from being bled on like that in the street. Get a ****ing education.

You can use elbows in all manner of ways. As taojkd pointed out the maxims cover different uses of elbows too, if you want your WC to be boxed in, but since we're talking about a biu jee move here you should already have learnt how to make your WC your own.

Edseas, you're asking why you'd use one when you can punch... well, in my WC if I can't put someone down with the first couple of punches that's already the time to use the biu jee techs (as I said on the other thread - you can call them techs for when things go wrong if you like, but in a real fight, if I'm not finished and/or out of there in about three-five seconds I'd call it 'things going wrong'!), and I aim to kick/punch then work in asap to clinch/elbow/knee/takedown.

And furthermore Edseas, as I also said on the other thread, if you can't get your elbows to work you are getting them wrong, and that doesn't mean nobody else can pull them off in their wing chun! :D FYI elbows don't mean you lose 'stickiness'. If I use the elbow right I can use it to stick. And if you don't know how, you should go and ask your sifu, as you say.

BTW, I have a lot of respect for Gary Lam. Just not parrots.

I'm really sick of dogmatic morons.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Any full contact fighter knows that elbows are more dangerous than punches. That's why some events including boxing don't allow elbows. Elbows don't need elaborate footwork. A simple torque of the waist is sufficient. Look at these elbow KOs;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vVH1Rmpv3g&feature=related


***Great clip, Phil...

[Edmund]

I don't think this video shows a small untrained woman as you orginally described.

You're misquoting Phil for starters!
He said a woman with small untrained hands. It could be a big woman :).
Regardless of woman size, untrained little fists wouldn't do the damage that an elbow would.

The videos are just examples of the amount of damage they can do. (Good find, Phil) I think the "myth" that elbows are powerful has actually been CONFIRMED!
It can KO opponents for real.




On the street this can be bad too, as usually don't know who your fighting, and or what disease they may have. It would suck big time to get into a fight (probably for no good reason), and get bled on, to only find out you have HIV.


Like hitting someone with your bare fists doesn't have similar risk of bleeding?

[sihing]

Sihing, if you think the reason elbows aren't allowed in boxing is because they cause cuts, you're joining the idiot bus... elbows aren't allowed in boxing because boxing only allows punches, and another FYI: you won't get HIV from being bled on like that in the street. Get a ****ing education.



Mr Punch,

I'm totally aware that there will be differences of opinion on internet forums, but you would think as mature adults, that also practice Martial Arts as well, that we can disagree without going to the level of applying labels to someone. In your post above you refer to me as basically an uneducated idiot. That's easy to do when you take the humanity away from someone and think little of the other person on the other side of the keyboard (don't worry bro, you didn't hurt my feelings:)), just stating that this type of behaviour is becoming more and more the case whenever people get together on a internet community, and just another reason for me to stay clear.

Thanks for the reminder. Best of luck to you:)

JR

[sihing]

Like hitting someone with your bare fists doesn't have similar risk of bleeding?

Never said that isn't the case as well. From my experience and understanding, elbows produce more cuts than bare fists, but not saying one is exclusive to the other. Fighting period is a dangerous endeavour on the street, not just because of the immediate repercussions, or legal issues, but whenever the possibility of exchanging bodily fluids is present you put yourself at risk IMO.

JR

[Phil Redmond]

I thought the reason why elbows are not allowed in boxing is because it causes more cuts, rather than it being more deadly or lethal.JR

With all due respect do you base this opinon on your fight training? Elbows are more lethal. Just like kidney shots are forbidden in boxing. I know this because I trained full contact fighting in a boxing gym with pros and amatuers like Mark Breland and Yoel Judah. I'm not trying to place myself on a pedistal because it was years ago when I was in the ring. But unless a person has competed against competent fighters opinons are just that.

[sihing]

With all due respect do you base this opinon on your fight training? Elbows are more lethal. Just like kidney shots are forbidden in boxing. I know this because I trained full contact fighting in a boxing gym with pros and amatuers like Mark Breland and Yoel Judah. I'm not trying to place myself on a pedistal because it was years ago when I was in the ring. But unless a person has competed against competent fighters opinons are just that.

Phil,

If you look at my quote you posted, there actually is no opinion stated regarding elbows being more or less lethal. It is all relative, both fists strikes and elbow strikes can be powerful and lethal, but it all depends on the situation.

And this is all based on my fantasy life:eek:


JR

[Mr Punch]

Mr Punch,

I'm totally aware that there will be differences of opinion on internet forums, but you would think as mature adults, that also practice Martial Arts as well, that we can disagree without going to the level of applying labels to someone. In your post above you refer to me as basically an uneducated idiot. That's easy to do when you take the humanity away from someone and think little of the other person on the other side of the keyboard (don't worry bro, you didn't hurt my feelings:)), just stating that this type of behaviour is becoming more and more the case whenever people get together on a internet community, and just another reason for me to stay clear.

Thanks for the reminder. Best of luck to you:)

JROK James, you win and I accept all of your points. Please allow me to apologise profusely. :o I've been getting so ****ed off recently with the likes of Hardwork, Ali and now this Edseas character who come out with 'This is THE way to do things,' and if you disagree they give it, 'Your kung fu sucks,' and when you explain your PoV using your understanding of WC and ask them why they think you are wrong they just say, 'Ask your sifu... if you have a real sifu...' and I'm afraid you came out on the blunt end.

My wing chun is from a mix of lineages (out of geographical necessity) and I see it as being all the stronger for it (and this has been tested to a certain extent with people from many lineages and through other styles), and as a result I really believe that I can learn from most lines and even most people... in person.

So when I see zealots and dogmatists, well, I've started to lose patience. I'm not fuming: it's the internet - I'm not angry at all really - just lost patience.

I do know you, as much as anyone who has hung around on the same forum for this much time... and I know that you are a zealous convert to Lam's line (which I happen to like, having trained with and still train with WSL line people) and sometimes seem a little over-keen and therefore a little blinkered in thinking that you now have a line you like therefore you have the answers. This is the way you come across sometimes, though I admit you often seem to reassess your views which is something we can all learn from.

Right, so enough of this touchy-feely bollocks! :)

1) There are lots of reasons for boxing rules being as they are, and as far as I know elbows were rarely in the equation. Sure, the design of gloves etc were designed to increase percussive damage (and therefore proportionally cuts must have decreased from the days when old style hard gloves were used) and shorten the fights, but don't forget the twist at the end of many boxing punches is specifically designed to cut people to finish the fight quickly. Elbows just weren't there any more than knees or feet: i.e. as soon as Queensbury decided it wasn't going to be an out-and-out brawl they were out.

2) So, on to the street. Fists will cut pretty much as much as elbows. Speaking from experience. Furthermore, your fists will bleed much easier than elbows.

3) The chances of you catching HIV from someone bleeding on you in the street are tiny to say the least.

Back to the subject: Edseas is WRONG.

1) The elbows (and specifically the one he is talking about) can be used to stick
2) They can be followed up from
3) They are perfectly OK by the some specific maxims of wing chun
4) They do not contradict the wing chun maxims he has quoted
5) They are not only limited to when you've been grabbed - this is an idealistic view: non-CMAers are not concerned with sticking and you will not be able to stick to them so easily - this applies to anything, not just elbows
6) Edseas's examples (and this has been stated before) are all of WHEN not to do elbows, not WHY not to do elbows as he maintains based on his own straw man that 'people' overuse elbows
7) Challenging people by saying that they are wrong then saying 'ask your sifu' when they respond is not productive behaviour on a forum
8) Elbows can easily KyouTFO. They are powerful strikes and valuable part of any close range arsenal
9) Saying that if you are too close to be able to throw a punch so you have to throw elbows which is wrong, is fundamentally opposite to many maxims of wing chun. That very close range is an essential part of wing chun and all elbows are basic techs trained from SLT upwards.

[Matrix]

You're misquoting Phil for starters!
He said a woman with small untrained hands. It could be a big woman :).
Regardless of woman size, untrained little fists wouldn't do the damage that an elbow would.

Did I really misquote him??? I don't think so.
In the case of a small woman who has not trained her small hands an elbow "could" be the way to go. Everything is relative.But let's not get lost in the trivial details.

Phil is absolutely correct when he emphasizes the word "could". The potential is definitely there. A gun "could" be more effective than a knife if you can pull the trigger and hit the target ( or maybe the loud noise will make the opponent think twice). The fact that a person can't use a knife effectively doesn't mean that they'll automatically be more successful with the gun. I'm just saying that it's not as simple as saying if you can't punch effectively that elbows will do the trick. You need to get in closer to land an elbow, and you still need to deliver the strike with some amount of power to be effective.

Cheers,
Bill

Now back to our regularly scheduled program..................

[sihing]

OK James, you win and I accept all of your points. Please allow me to apologise profusely. :o I've been getting so ****ed off recently with the likes of Hardwork, Ali and now this Edseas character who come out with 'This is THE way to do things,' and if you disagree they give it, 'Your kung fu sucks,' and when you explain your PoV using your understanding of WC and ask them why they think you are wrong they just say, 'Ask your sifu... if you have a real sifu...' and I'm afraid you came out on the blunt end.

My wing chun is from a mix of lineages (out of geographical necessity) and I see it as being all the stronger for it (and this has been tested to a certain extent with people from many lineages and through other styles), and as a result I really believe that I can learn from most lines and even most people... in person.

So when I see zealots and dogmatists, well, I've started to lose patience. I'm not fuming: it's the internet - I'm not angry at all really - just lost patience.

I do know you, as much as anyone who has hung around on the same forum for this much time... and I know that you are a zealous convert to Lam's line (which I happen to like, having trained with and still train with WSL line people) and sometimes seem a little over-keen and therefore a little blinkered in thinking that you now have a line you like therefore you have the answers. This is the way you come across sometimes, though I admit you often seem to reassess your views which is something we can all learn from.



Actually, just to set the record straight, my training now is strict WSL line, not Gary Lam VT. I got a level 1 certificate from Gary, but haven't concentrated on his stuff for about 2yrs now. Once in awhile I go thru the drills but with refinements. I train with Ernie Barrios when I can and consider myself a follower of his methods, with a ton of stuff still to learn and understand. So in actuality my POV is spread across 3 systems (TWC, GLVT and WSLVT with the last two from a limited perspective). It's a never ending journey.

For me I seperate the training from the application. In training one has to be strict and has to limit themselves to a certain set of rules and concepts/principals to learn what the system is teaching us. For me VT is all about training certain reflexes, structures and mechanics so that one can fight more effectively and efficiently when the need arises. When applying it, or fighting per say, anything goes. There are no right or wrongs, this is better than that thinking. The only thing that matters is that you get out alive and with minimal injury. So in one sense I am anal when it comes to VT training and what one can get out of it, but on the other side I realize VT is not the be all end all, and that it is always up to the individual to make something effective. On forums like this, all we can really do is discuss concepts, prinicpals and compare experiences, but until we meet up with one another and train together, most of us will misunderstand one another on a regular basis.

James

[Edmund]

Never said that isn't the case as well. From my experience and understanding, elbows produce more cuts than bare fists, but not saying one is exclusive to the other.

I reckon it's about the same for either fist or elbow.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, . . . . .And this is all based on my fantasy life:eek:
JR
I never meant to come off like that. Reality is relative.

[Edmund]

Did I really misquote him??? I don't think so. But let's not get lost in the trivial details.


Ah sorry. I didn't notice he mentioned a small woman earlier.



Phil is absolutely correct when he emphasizes the word "could". The potential is definitely there. A gun "could" be more effective than a knife if you can pull the trigger and hit the target ( or maybe the loud noise will make the opponent think twice). The fact that a person can't use a knife effectively doesn't mean that they'll automatically be more successful with the gun. I'm just saying that it's not as simple as saying if you can't punch effectively that elbows will do the trick. You need to get in closer to land an elbow, and you still need to deliver the strike with some amount of power to be effective.


Well we were talking about the relative amount of damage. i.e. The elbow does more than fist.

The "what if you can't connect with an elbow" scenario is a different topic.

[Hardwork108]

I haven´t read the whole thread but the way I was taught was to use the elbow only when in range (other options considered). I practise 5 main elbow attacks (there are more).

I think problems may arise when one closes the range to specifically use the elbows instead of using more suitable tactics.

[Matrix]

Well we were talking about the relative amount of damage. i.e. The elbow does more than fist.

The "what if you can't connect with an elbow" scenario is a different topic.My point isn't really "what if you can't connect with an elbow". I'm merely saying that regardless of what tool you use, you need to have good mechanics. I'm not keen on the idea that a weak puncher can just substitute an elbow. Different tools for different ranges, IMO.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

anyone said elbows are used in the thai clinch range? If i get clinched or my shirt or upper body gets grabbed im thinkin elbow or throw (we mix in throws and BJJ) if i have little to no space im not going to make space to punch just elbow and come forward

[CFT]

Ed's posts reminds me of a story about one of WSL's beimo fights. His fellow training brothers criticized him for using a knee to the (bent over) opponent's head to end the fight - saying it was not Wing Chun. He replied: "I used the closest weapon to the target, what maxim have I violated"?

What we think is correct is open to much interpretation based on our level of understanding. We should not be so dogmatic about what Wing Chun is. Most articles I read about Wing Chun include a statement about improvising when using Wing Chun in combat.

[Phil Redmond]

Ed's posts reminds me of a story about one of WSL's beimo fights. His fellow training brothers criticized him for using a knee to the (bent over) opponent's head to end the fight - saying it was not Wing Chun. He replied: "I used the closest weapon to the target, what maxim have I violated"?

What we think is correct is open to much interpretation based on our level of understanding. We should not be so dogmatic about what Wing Chun is. Most articles I read about Wing Chun include a statement about improvising when using Wing Chun in combat.
If only more WC people thought like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ed's posts reminds me of a story about one of WSL's beimo fights. His fellow training brothers criticized him for using a knee to the (bent over) opponent's head to end the fight - saying it was not Wing Chun. He replied: "I used the closest weapon to the target, what maxim have I violated"?

What we think is correct is open to much interpretation based on our level of understanding. We should not be so dogmatic about what Wing Chun is. Most articles I read about Wing Chun include a statement about improvising when using Wing Chun in combat.

IF WC is a "concept based system" then there is no such thing as a "WC technique" and by relation, one can't say "that isn't a WC tecnique".

[Vajramusti]

Sanjuro ronin sez:
IF WC is a "concept based system" then there is no such thing as a "WC technique" and by relation, one can't say "that isn't a WC tecnique".
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Correct. And WSL was correct.
But - training on proper wc structure and motions with proper timing- including chi sao develops a sense of the limits of motions and embeds the concepts so that they can operate naturally.
Thus, if you miss a boxing hook in a real fight, you can be thrown, piushed/taken down etc.
But with a properly trained wing chun punch (you can label it a hooking punch), if you are well trained and miss you can
regain control of the center and /or fluidly move on to other things like a biu among many other things.
WC is different on this from western boxing or whatever the lastest version of jkd might be.

joy chaudhuri

[Edmund]

My point isn't really "what if you can't connect with an elbow". I'm merely saying that regardless of what tool you use, you need to have good mechanics. I'm not keen on the idea that a weak puncher can just substitute an elbow. Different tools for different ranges, IMO.

I guess in that case you would have to figure out the reason why the punch is weak. If it's to do with the fist not being conditioned or too small, then maybe it's better to use an elbow.

[Mr Punch]

But - training on proper wc structure and motions with proper timing- including chi sao develops a sense of the limits of motions and embeds the concepts so that they can operate naturally.
Thus, if you miss a boxing hook in a real fight, you can be thrown, piushed/taken down etc.
But with a properly trained wing chun punch (you can label it a hooking punch), if you are well trained and miss you can
regain control of the center and /or fluidly move on to other things like a biu among many other things.
WC is different on this from western boxing or whatever the lastest version of jkd might be.Are you saying you think boxers are incapable of recovery, fluid movement and throwing punches from compromised angles? :eek:

As this description stands, I don't think this is a valid distinction between wing chun and other arts.

[Vajramusti]

Its a comparative and relative and systemic distinction - not an absolute black and white one. Individual skills can make a difference and does.
But then you can draw your own conclusion- for yourself.We differ. Ok with me, I ain't a missionary.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

IF WC is a "concept based system" then there is no such thing as a "WC technique" and by relation, one can't say "that isn't a WC tecnique".
Of course there are some basic concepts but when people say this or that isn't WC there's a problem. WSL said he used to closest weapon to the target. I'll bet the people who criticized what he did probably couldn't beat him. ;)

[Matrix]

IF WC is a "concept based system" then there is no such thing as a "WC technique" and by relation, one can't say "that isn't a WC tecnique".Bingo! :):cool:

[Matrix]

I guess in that case you would have to figure out the reason why the punch is weak. If it's to do with the fist not being conditioned or too small, then maybe it's better to use an elbow.
Yes, I agree that you need to find out why things aren't working as expected. I suspect that some of the causes of weakness may follow into execution of the elbow technique but that's pure speculation on my part.

Cheers,
Bill

[Ultimatewingchun]

I hope you two guys are kidding....

No techniques....no stop the punch to your face...your body...your head...your groin.

No tickey, no wash. :cool: :D :eek:

[Matrix]

I hope you two guys are kidding....

No techniques....no stop the punch to your face...your body...your head...your groin.Victor,
Read it again, the devil is in the details. we're talking about labeling techniques as Wing Chun techniques or non-Wing Chun techniques. If you punch me in the face, I'm not going to quibble about whether or not it was a proper Wing Chun punch. :D
What's more important is that the principles and concepts are adhered to, at least most of the time. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course there are some basic concepts but when people say this or that isn't WC there's a problem. WSL said he used to closest weapon to the target. I'll bet the people who criticized what he did probably couldn't beat him. ;)

Isn't that usually the case?