OT: JFK speech, a warning of 9-11?

[uki]

was he warning us of what would come? every american and citizen of the world has the fundamentual right to know the truth... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnpujfanUM&eurl=http://forums.armageddononline.org/saalm-supreme-annunaki-p268208.html#post268208&feature=player_embedded

[Hardwork108]

was he warning us of what would come? every american and citizen of the world has the fundamentual right to know the truth... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnpujfanUM&eurl=http://forums.armageddononline.org/saalm-supreme-annunaki-p268208.html#post268208&feature=player_embedded

I believe that JFK was referring to the huge FREEMASONIC and Knights of Malta influence on world politics. According to many this is the same conspiracy that assassinated him and covered it up. Apparrently J. Edgar Hoover and president to be, Lyndon Johnson were 33rd Degree Masons. Most Masons do not go beyond the 3rd Degree. The then head of CIA was Allan Dulles a Knight of Malta.

As for 911 I believe that one has to really be brain damaged to believe the US government´s official version of the story.

Take care.:)

PS. Have a look at this:

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/182.html

[Reverend Tap]

One of these (http://zapatopi.net/afdb) is strongly recommended when viewing the above links. Just a safety precaution.

[Hardwork108]

Well the Kennedy speech is from the "horse´s mouth" so to speak, so it is a good place to start.

[CLFLPstudent]

I picture PM's between HW and Uki like this:


To: Uki
From : Hardwork108


Hey Uki - you seem really cool! I think the world is gonna end soon too, with all of this illuminati business going on. Did I ever tell you I know teh Real Authentic Kung Fu(tm)? Let me know if you wanna hang sometime, I can teach you some instead of the fake Kung Fu that is out there!



To: Hardwork108
From: Uki

Hi Hardwork! I know, the governments are all gonna get us, good thing I have loads of woods on my property so that I can hide! Hey you wanna come over and we can camp out, smoke some herb, eat some shrooms and talk about how we're gonna survive when the police state comes down on us? You can show me some of your 2, no 6, no 7, no 8 years experience of _ing __un! I can show you how I juggle balls ( no, silly, IRON balls!)! I bet it will be much better than your mom's basement!



To: Uki
From: Hardwork108

Sounds Super!!!! I'll bring my new DVD of the REAL Zapruder film! And we can read David Icke to each other while the campfire slowly burns out! See you soon!


Or something very close to that....


-David

[AdrianK]

Ya know, the problem is that if there are any intelligent, internal threats to society, we wouldn't know it because part of the population covers their ears, eyes and mouth. And the other part blows it so incredibly out of proportion that even the mere MENTION of "Secret societies", makes any normal person flinch.

[David Jamieson]

Masons rule the world.

Live with it.

[uki]

I picture PM's between HW and Uki like this:

Or something very close to that....back to highlighting your extreme level of maturity and intellectual ability i see... well done grasshopper... well done.

i can just imagine what your PM's are like(and to whom)... i won't offer any suggestions because i do not want to hurt your feelings. :)



Masons rule the world.the unfortunate truth...


Live with it.nope.

[SimonM]

Who keeps the metric system down?

We do, we do.
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Aliens under wraps?

We do, we doooooo!

Somebody call for Homer Simpson, he's the chosen one!

[Merryprankster]

Yes uki, if you are retarded, then Kennedy's speech was a 9/11 warning.

[Hardwork108]

I picture PM's between HW and Uki like this:









Or something very close to that....


-David

Well just wait till there is "scientific" proof for the conspiracion. It will make interesting reading that is if you still have the freedom to read such material.

PS. Inspite of some of the weirder aspects of what David Icke writes you really should read some of his research as he has more intelligence and decency in his little toe than most of the politicians in the western hemisphere put together. Read before you judge.

[Hardwork108]

Yes uki, if you are retarded, then Kennedy's speech was a 9/11 warning.

That speech was about a serious subject. What is your interpretation?

[David Jamieson]

That speech was about a serious subject. What is your interpretation?

Here's my interpretation. Homeschooling for hillbillies doesn't work. the end.

[Hardwork108]

Here's my interpretation. Homeschooling for hillbillies doesn't work. the end.

I wasn´t trying to school him. I was merely asking a question.:D

[Hardwork108]

While on the subject of Kennedy, watch this thought provoking short video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFpPjjKdUds&feature=related

[uki]

Here's my interpretation. Homeschooling for hillbillies doesn't work. the end.apparently state sposored schooling is lacking in your case aswell. :)

[David Jamieson]

apparently state sposored schooling is lacking in your case aswell. :)

moreso in yours or you would realize there are no states in Canada. :)

[SimonM]

Well just wait till there is "scientific" proof for the conspiracion. It will make interesting reading that is if you still have the freedom to read such material.

PS. Inspite of some of the weirder aspects of what David Icke writes you really should read some of his research as he has more intelligence and decency in his little toe than most of the politicians in the western hemisphere put together. Read before you judge.

Is David Icke the person who taught you "conspiracion"?

I believe the word you are looking for is 'conspiracy' although there is an outside chance, if your grammar is as bad as your spelling that you meant 'conspirators' or possibly 'conspiring' or some other tense of the verb 'to conspire'.

You realize that Icke is a crazy person. Even other 'conspiracion theeoryzers' (conspiracy theorists for english speakers) think he's a crazy person.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys know that Kennedy is dead, right?

[David Jamieson]

Icke is NOT a mentally stable person. That much is obvious. He's stable enough to write and to speak to the tinfoil hat colonies, but overall, he's a bit of a nutter for sure.

Of course, you realize Simon, that by our saying this, we are now part of the illuminati conspiracy to allow the reptillian overlords dominate earth because we've criticized Icke for the nutjob he is. lol

His biggest audiences are the drug addled crowds in the northwest of the US and Canada. lol no coincidence there!

[SimonM]

I am the illuminati.

Of course the true illuminati would never admit to being so and therefore I must not be....

Unless the previous denial was just a clever ruse based on my knowledge that I know that no true illuminati would admit it - by admitting it I thus throw the seekers of truth off the trail left by my reptilian tail.

[David Jamieson]

not trail, tail, reptilian tail, but no worries, it will grow back in the vitamin a solution provided on teh mother ships. ;D

[SimonM]

fixed it. :D

[uki]

moreso in yours or you would realize there are no states in Canada.state n, definition 4b: (plural)the members or representatives of the governing classes assembled in a legislative body. 5a: a politically organized body of people usu. occupying a definite territory; esp: one that is sorvereign. 5c: a government or politically organized society having a particular character <a police ~> <a welfare ~>

as you can clearly see(and perhaps already knew), the choice of the word state in my post is everything but... being out of context.

one must be prepared for all angles and modes of attack. :)

[Merryprankster]

That speech was about a serious subject. What is your interpretation?


My interpretation is that you are a developmentally challenged submoron. The youtube video was an edited excerpt from a speech called the President and the Press, given to the American Newspaper's Publishers Association in 1961. The purpose of the speech was to highlight the difficulty in balancing freedom of speech with national security.

The setting was the Cold War, the "conspiracy" he referenced was Communism, and his reassurances that he would enact no limitations on the power of the press was balanced by a request that the media please self-edit and ask the question - and I QUOTE: ""Is it in the interest of the national security?" before they published.

How did I learn all this? I read the ****ing speech, which I found with little effort using Google of all things, and I actually know some history.

Hence my conclusion that you are a developmentally disabled submoron, since even Paris Hilton can use the internet.

Which highlights my initial comment - "Yes, if you're retarded then JFK was warning us about 9/11"

[David Jamieson]

state n, definition 4b: (plural)the members or representatives of the governing classes assembled in a legislative body. 5a: a politically organized body of people usu. occupying a definite territory; esp: one that is sorvereign. 5c: a government or politically organized society having a particular character <a police ~> <a welfare ~>

as you can clearly see(and perhaps already knew), the choice of the word state in my post is everything but... being out of context.

one must be prepared for all angles and modes of attack. :)

wow, that only took you....all day! *golf claps*

[Hardwork108]

My interpretation is that you are a developmentally challenged submoron. The youtube video was an edited excerpt from a speech called the President and the Press, given to the American Newspaper's Publishers Association in 1961. The purpose of the speech was to highlight the difficulty in balancing freedom of speech with national security.

The setting was the Cold War, the "conspiracy" he referenced was Communism, and his reassurances that he would enact no limitations on the power of the press was balanced by a request that the media please self-edit and ask the question - and I QUOTE: ""Is it in the interest of the national security?" before they published.

How did I learn all this? I read the ****ing speech, which I found with little effort using Google of all things, and I actually know some history.

Hence my conclusion that you are a developmentally disabled submoron, since even Paris Hilton can use the internet.

Which highlights my initial comment - "Yes, if you're retarded then JFK was warning us about 9/11"

Thank you very much for your "eloquent" post. Yet another MMA-ist knucklehead makes his mark! At least I know now that you weren't the one who wrote that speech, whatever your interpretation.:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Is David Icke the person who taught you "conspiracion"?

I believe the word you are looking for is 'conspiracy' although there is an outside chance, if your grammar is as bad as your spelling that you meant 'conspirators' or possibly 'conspiring' or some other tense of the verb 'to conspire'.

You realize that Icke is a crazy person. Even other 'conspiracion theeoryzers' (conspiracy theorists for english speakers) think he's a crazy person.

This may come to you as a shock but I speak four languages and sometimes I mix things up a little. It happens. So stop trolling!

As far as Icke is concerned he may say a lot of out of this world stuff but he does make some great observations about what is happening in the world today including the erosion of our freedoms; centralization of world power and the illusion of democracy!

[Hardwork108]

Anyone see the clip that I posted? It was not of David Icke, I swear!

[bakxierboxer]

You guys know that Kennedy is dead, right?

I'm still waiting on him to "properly dispose" of himself....
.
.
.
.
.
.
Aw, heck!


Maybe you weren't talking about Teddy.......

[Merryprankster]

Sorry Hardwork. I have a low tolerance for both bull**** and stupidity. While this is an admirable trait in the real world, it makes it particularly difficult to talk to you. So I do hope you'll forgive my eloquence.

But I appreciate the compliment!

Ohhhhh.... wait! I see what you did there! You put eloquence in quotation marks to signal sarcasm!

AWESOME!

[SimonM]

Thank you very much for your "eloquent" post. Yet another MMA-ist knucklehead makes his mark! At least I know now that you weren't the one who wrote that speech, whatever your interpretation.:rolleyes:

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!

This has gotta be a joke. Nobody is this stupid; not even somebody who would spell 'conspiracy' as 'conspiracion'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm still waiting on him to "properly dispose" of himself....
.
.
.
.
.
.
Aw, heck!


Maybe you weren't talking about Teddy.......

LMAO !!
Nice one !

[Hardwork108]

Sorry Hardwork. I have a low tolerance for both bull**** and stupidity. While this is an admirable trait in the real world, it makes it particularly difficult to talk to you. So I do hope you'll forgive my eloquence.

But I appreciate the compliment!

Ohhhhh.... wait! I see what you did there! You put eloquence in quotation marks to signal sarcasm!

AWESOME!

Not to worry as you eventually got there in the end.:D

[Hardwork108]

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!

This has gotta be a joke. Nobody is this stupid; not even somebody who would spell 'conspiracy' as 'conspiracion'.

If you are looking for stupid then please make your way to the MMA threads where you will find plenty of knuckleheads with whom you will share common and "wonderful" traits.

But please do close the door on your way out!

[SimonM]

It's spelled 'please'.

Gotta love how somebody who can't spell accuses others of idiocy. And why?

Adherence to modern training practices in martial arts rather than dramatically waving around tinfoil swords while wearing silk PJs.

[Hardwork108]

It's spelled 'please'.

Gotta love how somebody who can't spell accuses others of idiocy. And why?

Adherence to modern training practices in martial arts rather than dramatically waving around tinfoil swords while wearing silk PJs.

That was a typing error rather than a spelling mistake, however feel free to clinch at straws.

By the way, your MMA friends are anxiously waiting for you in the other threads, so why don't you join them to discuss the color of Ken Shamrock's latest underwear and leave the rest of us in peace.

Thanks in advance.:)

[SimonM]

This thread will represent the first and, hopefully only, time that I will ever type the "colour of ken shamrock's underwear" in a post.

Hardwork 108 you can LARP all you like. It's not going to change the fact that there are plenty of CMAists who LIKE MMA!!!! :eek:

And that fact doesn't change the truth:

Icke and his ilk are nutjobs and anybody who wastes my valuable time over trivialities such as the latest conspiracy theory involving... JFK and September 11, 2001 as if it was planned what? Thirty five years in advance? is a moron!

[Hardwork108]

This thread will represent the first and, hopefully only, time that I will ever type the "colour of ken shamrock's underwear" in a post.

You must admit that it is a great discussion topic for you guys.:D


Hardwork 108 you can LARP all you like. It's not going to change the fact that there are plenty of CMAists who LIKE MMA!!!! :eek:
You got this all wrong. This is the correct way of putting it:

There are plenty of MMA-ists who like to think that they are qualified to discuss and criticize kung fu, just because they have had a "flirt" with it through their "mastery" of dozens of MAs on their way to their MMA "enlightenment".


And that fact doesn't change the truth:

The truth is that there is an escalation towards a global centralization of politics and economics. This is alarming and many people like Icke have been warning about the consequences of this for a long time.

The fact is that we are all living in none democratic countries (whatever the controlled media may tell us) and that money and power talk. Wars are fought; economic crisis happen; cost of living goes up through unfair taxes and unfair corporate practices; huge segments of the population are living under debt (slavery);our freedom's are being slowly eroded because of the "war on terrorism","war on drugs","global warming", etc. take your pick - and we are told that this is part and parcel of today's reality.

The fact is that from the old days of overt control we have fallen under the covert control of people who really run our countries (and the world). Many people are researching this and there is a lot of interesting and informative material out there that you and people like you will never read because as ready as you may be to step out of your physcical comfort zone to slug it out with some other MA-ist you still don't have the emotional strengh to accept the fact that you are only a glorified slave!

[taai gihk yahn]

you are only a glorified slave!
do you consider yourself to be "free"?

[bakxierboxer]

LMAO !!
Nice one !


If you'd ever met "the man" "hisself" up-close & in person you'd know just how "un-nice" he is......

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you'd ever met "the man" "hisself" up-close & in person you'd know just how "un-nice" he is......

I deal with enough politicans here, you can keep yours.
:D

[David Jamieson]

I practice tcma for more than a decade. (tmas for more than 2 decades)
I like MMA and how it is trained.

I guess I don't fit a mold.
oh well.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I practice tcma for more than a decade. (tmas for more than 2 decades)
I like MMA and how it is trained.

I guess I don't fit a mold.
oh well.

:)

Pfft !@
Glorified kickboxer

[SimonM]

The truth is that there is an escalation towards a global centralization of politics and economics.


See here's my problem with the tinfoil hat crowd. This statement isn't fundamentally wrong. And then you go and start talking about the shapechanging reptile people from the hollow earth being behind the illuminati who rule all of reality through the freemasons.

And you don't realize that that sort of bull$h1t is part of the problem.

There are people, lots of people, who don't like the increasing power of multinational corporations and the erosion of the nation state. There are lots of people who are working very hard to come up with real solutions to these real problems.

And it only takes one frothing conspiracy nut to completely marginalize everything those of us working for a more fair and compassionate world are doing.

So, no, I'm not going to don a tinfoil hat just because Icke believes himself to be an enemy of global capitalism. Instead I WILL call you on your bull$hit and try to make it clear that there are sane people who don't think an unfettered free market is a good idea.



cost of living goes up through unfair taxes and unfair corporate practices; huge segments of the population are living under debt (slavery)

Debt isn't slavery. It's the natural repurcussion of creating an economy that depends on constant expansion when you have a finite consumer base. So you literally give the stuff away in exchange for the promise that money will later follow.

It's a foolish practice.

It's not an attempt to enslave people.



our freedom's are being slowly eroded because of the "war on terrorism","war on drugs","global warming", etc. take your pick - and we are told that this is part and parcel of today's reality.

There is no such thing as absolute, unrestricted freedom. If any state was created in which such a thing was promised I would not want to live there. Humans, as social animals, will always find their freedom restricted by the competing interests of other human beings. Short of moving to a deserted island with no other people absolute freedom is impossible. Instead equitable and fair, a balance of restrictions on freedom so that no given individual is less free than another individual in the community is a valid goal.

Quite frankly restricting the freedom of everyone in order to ensure the survival of the species (by making laws making polluting financially untenable) is a VERY GOOD restriction on personal freedom.

[David Jamieson]

Pfft !@
Glorified kickboxer

lol. not really, i still do forms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some people confuse liberty with freedom.
Some people forget that " if you vote, they will rule".
Some people forget that "consumers dictate economies"

In short, some people don't like to shoulder their part of the blame.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol. not really, i still do forms.

Forms? never heard of her, she anything like this one:

[uki]

Some people confuse liberty with freedom.
Some people forget that " if you vote, they will rule".
Some people forget that "consumers dictate economies"but most people confuse the illusion with the reality.


In short, some people don't like to shoulder their part of the blame.yeah and i wonder why they are still in office... :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

but most people confuse the illusion with the reality.


Yeah, Hardwork108, you and David Icke top that list. ;)

[Hardwork108]

do you consider yourself to be "free"?

Of course, not!

Unfortunately the fact is that we can be victims of a bomb or bullets that are fired to fulfill some political agenda that we may or may not have any ideas about and that most likely at a much higher level that one imagines.

Wherever one goes one sees the same political and economic elements that trap the human being and do their best to turn him into a robot.

The society that says "hey guys, borrow money to buy what you can't really afford as you can pay for it later" and then goes on to say, "economic crisis, whoops we made a "mistake" but we still need to reclaim your house", is spreading its wings.

Global wars continue while the real countries behind them preach peace and human rights, while at the same time arming and financing the parties involved. There does not seem anywhere safe to live anymore.

The current economic crisis was apparently caused by "mistakes" made by global banks. The same banks that have been screwing us for decades. What do the some Western govenments (the employees of the bankers?) do in response? They give the banks (who were suppose be going bust) billions of dollars of the tax payers' money (yes the same tax payers that the banks have been screwing).

Following the first such "rescue" attempt/package in the UK, the banks went on to give huge bonuses to some of their directors (no doubt for a job well done as regards the crisis.). This did cause some scandal at the time.

Meanwhile we are being made aware of the "war" on global warming and yes surprise surprise higher taxes and more manipulated government involvement in our daily lives.

Other recent excuses for government intervention into our lives and privacy include the "war on terrorism (what a laugh when one discovers the origins of it) and the "war on drugs".

Most of the stuff I talked about is being administered globally. None of us are going to be free until people take their heads out of their collective @sses and stop blindly trusting presidents and prime ministers as their are nothing but selected psychopatic CEOs in companies that none of us have any shares in (inspite of what we are told). These leaders have their own masters who have their own agendas.

Thanks for your time.

[Hardwork108]

See here's my problem with the tinfoil hat crowd. This statement isn't fundamentally wrong. And then you go and start talking about the shapechanging reptile people from the hollow earth being behind the illuminati who rule all of reality through the freemasons.

As I stated before Icke says a lot of things that make sense. I stick to that stuff. As far as the more out of this world stuff goes, my position is no comment, or even lets wait and see.




There are people, lots of people, who don't like the increasing power of multinational corporations and the erosion of the nation state. There are lots of people who are working very hard to come up with real solutions to these real problems.

Yet these people have not realized that their leaders are nothing more than the employees of these multinationals, principly the banks. The so called "Democratic process" , as it exists today, is just an elaborate illusion to make the "sheep "believe that they play a part in their destiny. Until people wake up to this fact, no one is going to be free!


And it only takes one frothing conspiracy nut to completely marginalize everything those of us working for a more fair and compassionate world are doing.

I see your point here, but again most stuff he says makes sense. The world of econonics and politics seems to be full of freemasonic symbolism. Besides why should any supposedly democratic and "free "country have politicians and leaders belonging to secret societies?????


So, no, I'm not going to don a tinfoil hat just because Icke believes himself to be an enemy of global capitalism.
Right now I would say that a lack of hat is not the main problem with your head.


I WILL call you on your bull$hit and try to make it clear that there are sane people who don't think an unfettered free market is a good idea.

Unfortunately many of these "sane" people are trying to fight this using the same corrupt democratic system that was designed and belongs to their "enemies".



Debt isn't slavery.
Debt is slavery by design!

You don't believe me? Then just look at Latin America. Take Brazil for example. It was a democratic country in the 50's with stability and a growing economy. Then there was a military coup backed by the "Free" and "Democratic" U.S. which installed a military dictatorship. The military dictatorship (a wholey owned CIA asset) went on to borrow money from the "First world" bankers for development purposes. Now we end up with a country that could have been one of the richest nations in the world owing trillions of dollars to Western First World countries' banks.


It's the natural repurcussion of creating an economy that depends on constant expansion when you have a finite consumer base. So you literally give the stuff away in exchange for the promise that money will later follow.

The "stuff" or money is never given away. The banks are creating wealth mostly from money that does not exist as they are always allowed to lend more money then they actually have in their vaults. That means that mostly money is created by typing in numbers on their computer screens to lend to borrowers. However, if the borrowers are not able to pay within the conditions or if there is an "economic crisis", then the banks get solid assets such as homes or businesses in return for their digitalized numbers.


It's a foolish practice.
It is more than a foolish practice it is planned enslavement.


It's not an attempt to enslave people.
Again, look at Latin America and other "Third World" countries, specially the ones with huge amounts of mineral wealth. If you do, then you will see that they are being screwed covertly, one way(debts) or the other (wars) by "First world" countries or MORE CORRECTLY BY PEOPLE AND CORPORATE FAMILIES WHO RUN THESE COUNTRIES AND ANY CORRELATION BETWEEN THEIR INTERESTS WITH THOSE OF THE ORDINARY CITIZENS OF THOSE COUNTRIES IS PURELY INCIDENTAL!


There is no such thing as absolute, unrestricted freedom.

I am not talking about "absolute" and "unrestricted" freedom!

So please don't put any words in my mouth as I get enough of that from lkfmdc and Sanjuro_ronin, thank you!


Quite frankly restricting the freedom of everyone in order to ensure the survival of the species (by making laws making polluting financially untenable) is a VERY GOOD restriction on personal freedom.

That is what the same people who are blowing away Iraqis with uranium depeleted bombs are trying to make you believe.

The problem is that we are always getting "sugarcoated" messages on the protection of environment, "war on drugs" and "war on terrorism" by leaders who were put in power by interests who are outside the so called democratic process.

That is why the drugs don't go away. That is why there will always be "terrorists", because without all these MANUFACTURED problems people would not put up with unjust wars nor would they stand for the almost daily erosion of their freedom!

[SimonM]

Yet these people have not realized that their leaders are nothing more than the employees of these multinationals, principly the banks. The so called "Democratic process" , as it exists today, is just an elaborate illusion to make the "sheep "believe that they play a part in their destiny. Until people wake up to this fact, no one is going to be free!

Well I for one oppose war as being a cause of considerable suffering. As such armed insurrection is not a tool I am willing to use. Therefore working within the system - which provides considerable freedom of speech and opinion regardless of what you might think - is the only real viable way to act for the greater good.

I guess I could "drop out" and hit the bush but I'd rather do some good.



I see your point here, but again most stuff he says makes sense. The world of econonics and politics seems to be full of freemasonic symbolism. Besides why should any supposedly democratic and "free "country have politicians and leaders belonging to secret societies?????


I know freemasons. That bunch of anachronistic twits couldn't manage a major conspiracy if they tried. As for your question, here is my response: If the nation is free does that not include freedom of association for all citizens of it, politicians included?



Unfortunately many of these "sane" people are trying to fight this using the same corrupt democratic system that was designed and belongs to their "enemies".


Please see my comments vis armed insurrection. I have already addressed this point.



Debt is slavery by design!


No, actually, it's not. Slavery is when you are forced to work without renumeration the definition may be expanded to include people who are compelled to work for insufficient renumeration.

Personal debt is simply when you buy more than you can afford.



You don't believe me? Then just look at Latin America. Take Brazil for example. It was a democratic country in the 50's with stability and a growing economy. Then there was a military coup backed by the "Free" and "Democratic" U.S. which installed a military dictatorship. The military dictatorship (a wholey owned CIA asset) went on to borrow money from the "First world" bankers for development purposes. Now we end up with a country that could have been one of the richest nations in the world owing trillions of dollars to Western First World countries' banks.


Structural adjustment policies and the other tools of the IMF and the world bank are certainly a blight. They are used to forward the exploitation of whole peoples.

But, here's the thing, that is entirely different than personal debt, the subject I thought we were discussing. And, as bad as they are, they aren't slavery, simply exploitation, which is different.



The "stuff" or money is never given away. The banks are creating wealth mostly from money that does not exist as they are always allowed to lend more money then they actually have in their vaults. That means that mostly money is created by typing in numbers on their computer screens to lend to borrowers. However, if the borrowers are not able to pay within the conditions or if there is an "economic crisis", then the banks get solid assets such as homes or businesses in return for their digitalized numbers.


On this we don't disagree. Thing is that I see this "imaginary money" as being no money at all. And so I refer to goods being given away in exchange for a promise of money in the future. This is what personal debt is.



It is more than a foolish practice it is planned enslavement.


If you are refering to personal debt it is not as those individuals who truly have no option but to live beyond their means are generally not able to acumulate much formal debt.

If you are talking about national debt and about the strategies used to keep the third world in poverty I agree that they are exploitation. But, and this is important now, blaming the freemasons because the lizard men of the hollow planet made Prince Charles create the antichrist won't solve the problem, it just makes the people who are trying to solve the problem look crazy by association! And that's what Icke and his ilk do!



I am not talking about "absolute" and "unrestricted" freedom!


And yet you lump taxation (a good thing) and environmental regulation (a good thing) in with warmongering (a bad thing) and corporate rule (largely used to avoid paying taxes)



So please don't put any words in my mouth as I get enough of that from lkfmdc and Sanjuro_ronin, thank you!

I really have no need. You put enough crazy in your posts for me to go on with.



That is what the same people who are blowing away Iraqis with uranium depeleted bombs are trying to make you believe.


I can understand why you, with your tinfoil hat firmly on, would believe this. But, trust me, the people championing "blowing away Iraquis with uranium depleted bombs" (I believe you are refering to DU rounds but I won't worry about that, bullets are just as bad as bombs) are most emphatically the same people championing the relaxation of environmental regulations, the expansion of off-shore oil mining, and opposing carbon taxation or funding for clean fuel alternatives.

They are not the people supporting carbon taxes and funding for clean fuel.



The problem is that we are always getting "sugarcoated" messages on the protection of environment, "war on drugs" and "war on terrorism" by leaders who were put in power by interests who are outside the so called democratic process.


Protecting the environment is NOT the same message as the wars on various nouns!



That is why the drugs don't go away. That is why there will always be "terrorists", because without all these MANUFACTURED problems people would not put up with unjust wars nor would they stand for the almost daily erosion of their freedom!

Tell me: how have YOUR freedoms been eroded today?
What erosion has happened to YOUR freedoms in the year of 2009?

[Reverend Tap]

I cannot stand continual rehashing of tired conspiracy theories, so I will simply contribute two words to this discussion:

Occam's Razor.

That is all.

[SimonM]

Very eloquently put Rev. Tap.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=SimonM;913803]

They are not the people supporting carbon taxes

Why would you want to tax plant food:confused:

[SimonM]

Plants eat Carbon Monoxide now?

[Baqualin]

The Taxes their trying to promote are on CO2....don't get me wrong I'm for cleaner burning fuel.

[uki]

Occam's Razor.yet the definition of what is the simplest is relative to the perciever... what one man defines as being the simplest explanation, may very well be another mans complication of it. :)

for me, the simple fact that we have been manipulated by extra-terrestials since the beginning is far simpler than all the half-baked theories going around under the disguise of science or religion, which do nothing more than confuse the mind even further...

[SimonM]

Actually you are mistaken Uki.

Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

Blaming the vicissitudes of global politics and economics on space aliens grossly defies that. After all, it is a MASSIVE assumption (in the lack of any viable empirical data on the subject) and it is an assumption that makes no difference to observable predictions with regards to human politics and economics.

[uki]

Actually you are mistaken Uki.now that is an assumption.


Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.no one said occams razor has any validity to it...


Blaming the vicissitudes of global politics and economics on space aliens grossly defies that. After all, it is a MASSIVE assumption (in the lack of any viable empirical data on the subject) and it is an assumption that makes no difference to observable predictions with regards to human politics and economics.again you seem to be missing the point here... :p

[SimonM]

I cannot stand continual rehashing of tired conspiracy theories, so I will simply contribute two words to this discussion:

Occam's Razor.

That is all.


yet the definition of what is the simplest is relative to the perciever... what one man defines as being the simplest explanation, may very well be another mans complication of it. :)

for me, the simple fact that we have been manipulated by extra-terrestials since the beginning is far simpler than all the half-baked theories going around under the disguise of science or religion, which do nothing more than confuse the mind even further...

What am I missing?

[Merryprankster]

What always seems to bother conspiracy theorists are basically the same things that bother those who oppose evolution. It's essentially a variation of the argument by design. They can't accept the idea of complex, spontaneously adaptive systems formed by the inputs of lots of individuals working to further their own interests, whatever they might be.

There is no unitary purpose, intelligence, or guidance behind the global human construct. It is the end result of massively parallel processing and distributed decisionmaking. I do not argue that some pieces of that construct do not hold more power than others. And, of course, some people are exploited in the processes as well. But the idea that it is somehow conspiratorily dictated by a shadowy design is, um, how shall I say?

Stupid?

[Hardwork108]

As such armed insurrection is not a tool I am willing to use.

Neither am I!


Therefore working within the system - which provides considerable freedom of speech and opinion regardless of what you might think..
That freedom of speech that you talk about is being eroded by the minute. If we have one more 9-11 style, so called "terrorist" attack, you are going to have rest of your freedoms down the tube, "to protect you the citizen", of course.;)


... but I'd rather do some good.

That is a commendable approach, just think carefully what you do and how you do it.


I know freemasons. That bunch of anachronistic twits couldn't manage a major conspiracy if they tried.
Yet they have their logos and symbolisms all over the place in company logos, including huge media (information) empires, government agencies and of course, the famous dollar bill!

I would agree with you that most masons are insecure little schmucks but a very few selected ones get to the higher degrees - 30 - 33 - where apparently the agenda is made clear to them. These are usually people in positions of power. Apparently the majority (the schmucks) stay in the first 3 degrees.



If the nation is free does that not include freedom of association for all citizens of it, politicians included?

NO IT DOESN'T!

The obligations of any politician or leader in a FREE country is to the citizens of that country who vote him in and not some secret society whose agendas are kept away from the masses!


Slavery is when you are forced to work without renumeration the definition may be expanded to include people who are compelled to work for insufficient renumeration.
And being duped into debt and having to accept lower paying jobs or conditions to pay your debt does not fall into that category? Or sudden rises in interest rates that leave you at the mercy of god knows who?

Debt has become part of the culture in some parts of the West. People are made to worry about their credit worthiness as if borrowing money is an essential aspect of life. Well it is not! And the whole thing is a con!

How come we don't see mass campaigns against borrowing? If you have seen such campaigns then compare it to the "campaigns" that induce people to borrow.


Personal debt is simply when you buy more than you can afford.
And it is encouraged by advertising and the promotion of a superficial way of life. People perceive it to be something "normal" and that is when they are screwed!



Structural adjustment policies and the other tools of the IMF and the world bank are certainly a blight. They are used to forward the exploitation of whole peoples.
Agreed!

And the same goes for the US Federal Reserve, which is apparently a private bank! whose shareholders are not disclosed to the public, or am I wrong???



....that is entirely different than personal debt, the subject I thought we were discussing. And, as bad as they are, they aren't slavery, simply exploitation, which is different.

Depends on your definition but the last time I looked slavery = exploitation.




On this we don't disagree. Thing is that I see this "imaginary money" as being no money at all. And so I refer to goods being given away in exchange for a promise of money in the future.

Or imaginery money being given away in exchange for goods (your house perhaps) in the future!



This is what personal debt is.

It is certainly. I believe that personal debt should be for emergencies not a way of life as promoted in some countries.



But, and this is important now, blaming the freemasons because the lizard men of the hollow planet made Prince Charles create the antichrist won't solve the problem,...

Where did I mention lizard men or anti christ? I don't think that even Icke mentions the anti christ. He doesn't believe in the historical existance of Christ, let alone the anti Christ.


And that's what Icke and his ilk do!

I know what you are saying here but again there is a logic (dare I say:eek:) to what Icke says.

Lets put it this way. He says that at the highest levels the freemasons participate in what would or is called "black magic" ceremonies where negative entities are summoned and possession takes place. He says that these entities are reptilians.

I have never been to such ceremonies but I know that they exist in other secret societies. Here in South America you have Santeria (mainly in the Caribbean) and Makumba in Brasil. People who participate in their ceremonies are possessed by god knows what entities, but wether they are good or bad will depend on the ceremony, the sect and ultimately what the individual or group are looking for.

You can turn around and call this mumbo jumbo or you may think that there is something to it. It is up to you. I prefer to keep an open mind and as far a Icke is concerned then I look at all the stuff that makes sense rather than disgard everything because of the "out of this world stuff".


And yet you lump taxation (a good thing)

Good thing if fair!


Environmental regulation (a good thing)

Of course it is a good thing if it is done for the right reasons!

But for these people it is just another excuse to interfier in your life and introduce control mechanisms and perhaps more taxes (eg.air fuel tax) to syphon more money out of the public's hands.


in with warmongering (a bad thing)

Well haven't you notice that the people who are backing the "good" causes are, or have connections with the same warmongers?

THE WHOLE RACKET IS RUN BY THE SAME PEOPLE AND MOST OF US TAKE SIDES THINKING THAT WE ARE MAKING A CHOICE!


and corporate rule (largely used to avoid paying taxes

And to syphon off economic resources from the same countries that are being exploited by the debt trap, wars and/or political instability, into the pockets of a few families that are running the world.


I really have no need. You put enough crazy in your posts for me to go on with.

Yet, you did put words into my mouth!


I can understand why you, with your tinfoil hat firmly on, would believe this.
I am making valid points. You and people like you always fail to see the big picture.



But, trust me, the people championing "blowing away Iraquis with uranium depleted bombs" are most emphatically the same people championing the relaxation of environmental regulations, the expansion of off-shore oil mining, and opposing carbon taxation or funding for clean fuel alternatives.

They are not the people supporting carbon taxes and funding for clean fuel.

At the level you are looking at they are not. AT HIGHER LEVELS THEY ARE!

The game is fixed Simon and even most of the participants are not aware of this!

And this is not a new phenomenom. Things have been like this for centuries, it is just that they have evolved through time and higher technology into a well oiled machine!

It is like the presidential elections. At the Joe the public level there are different candidates with different messages. At the higher levels it is the same people pulling the strings. That is why nothing really changes. Presidents are selected not elected!




Protecting the environment is NOT the same message as the wars on various nouns!

The EFFECT is the same as it means that personal freedoms are reduced. The governments (in some) countries create excuses to fine their citizens. All this in the face of the rising scientific decent on the causes of the so called global warming, which may be a natural phenomenom.



how have YOUR freedoms been eroded today?
What erosion has happened to YOUR freedoms in the year of 2009?

I live in Colombia now and well this country is in a state of civil war, so it is not fair to comment on the restrictions here.

Well until a few months ago I used to live in London UK, a bastion of "Democracy" apparently. The average citizen is filmed or photographed at least a couple of hundred times at a daily basis. Does that sound like free country to you?

Why the cameras? Well before "terrorists" there were the street criminals who justified the use of cameras. Why so many street criminals in one of the richest countries in the world? The answer is because they were not punished - human rights, technicalities and generally laws that favor the the rights of the criminals.
BTW, the British legal system (just like the U.S.) has been infested and run by freemasons for a long time.

The policy is that when you have enough citizens scared to death of "the rising crime" then the "caring" government can come in and "help" with the cameras.

Did the street crime go down with the introduction of millions of cameras? NO for the most part it didn't. Why? Because the criminals are not punished!!!

Is this a legal mistake or disorganization? No of course not, it was all planned and continues until today, but the "bogey man" has changed to include the "TERRORISTS".

Furthermore, because of the so called terrorists, many Western government agencies have acquired the rights to bug and check phone calls and emails. Sounds like we are living in a free world, doesn't it? LOL,LOL!

Of course if you have nothing to hide you can trust NSA and the CIA because as history has proven so many times, they are just a bunch of nice guys looking after the citizens of the "free" world.:rolleyes:

[bakxierboxer]

I deal with enough politicans here, you can keep yours.
:D

T'other side of the continent is more than close enough for me.........

[bakxierboxer]

I like MMA and how it is trained.

I guess I don't fit a mold.
oh well.

:)


Mold?
Isn't that yet another something you can "catch" in those MMA gyms?

[uki]

Mold?
Isn't that yet another something you can "catch" in those MMA gyms?hahahahaha!!! that, an over-inflated machoman ego, a buzz cut, and a few lame celtic tribal tattoos. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

in response to the question "do you believe that you are free?"

Of course, not!
Unfortunately the fact is that we can be victims of a bomb or bullets that are fired to fulfill some political agenda...
Wherever one goes one sees the same political and economic elements that trap the human being...
There does not seem anywhere safe to live anymore...
Most of the stuff I talked about is being administered globally. None of us are going to be free until people take their heads out of their collective @sses and stop blindly trusting...
Thanks for your time.
thank you for yours; N.B.: I am not in complete disagreement in regards to much of what you post; I edited most of it out because I wanted to highlight the above statements; so the post is parapharsed, I am not trying to misrepresent you, ok?


There is no such thing as absolute, unrestricted freedom... Humans, as social animals, will always find their freedom restricted by the competing interests of other human beings...


the idea of complex, spontaneously adaptive systems formed by the inputs of lots of individuals working to further their own interests...
There is no unitary purpose, intelligence, or guidance behind the global human construct. It is the end result of massively parallel processing and distributed decision making. I do not argue that some pieces of that construct do not hold more power than others...

looking at the above three quotes, I find merit in all of them, insofar as they point out what I believe to be the fundamental issues in regards to the idea / concept / notion of freedom; as such, I think that these "truths" are inescapable, in that as long as we try to "solve" them in the way that humanity has always tried to "solve" them, we are going to end up in exactly the same place as we keep ending up in;

as such, I am going to ask that those of you invested in this discussion please take some time to read the following: I know it is long, but I think it speaks directly to the heart of the issue at hand; as such, it will "confirm" many of the things pointed out by uki, HW, Simon and MP; at the same time, I think it considers the "solution" from a perspective that sidesteps the usual pitfalls...

please read and comment accordingly


J. Krishnamurti
THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM (1954)
CHAPTER 1

TO COMMUNICATE with one another, even if we know each other very well, is extremely difficult. I may use words that may have to you a significance different from mine. Understanding comes when we, you and I, meet on the same level at the same time. That happens only when there is real affection between people, between husband and wife, between intimate fiends. That is real communion. Instantaneous understanding comes when we meet on the same level at the same time.
It is very difficult to commune with one another easily, effectively and with definitive action. I am using words which are simple, which are not technical, because I do not think that any technical type of expression is going to help us solve our difficult problems; so I am not going to use any technical terms, either of psychology or of science. I have not read any books on psychology or any religious books, fortunately. I would like to convey, by the very simple words which we use in our daily life, a deeper significance; but that is very difficult if you do not know how to listen.
There is an art of listening. To be able really to listen, one should abandon or put aside all prejudices, preformulations and daily activities. When you are in a receptive state of mind, things can be easily understood; you are listening when your real attention is given to something. But unfortunately most of us listen through a screen of resistance. We are screened with prejudices, whether religious or spiritual, psychological or scientific; or with our daily worries, desires and fears. And with these for a screen, we listen. Therefore, we listen really to our own noise, to our own sound, not to what is being said. It is extremely difficult to put aside our training, our prejudices, our inclination, our resistance, and, reaching beyond the verbal expression, to listen so that we understand instantaneously. That is going to be one of our difficulties.
If during this discourse, anything is said which is opposed to your way of thinking and belief just listen; do not resist. You may be right, and I may be wrong; but by listening and considering together we are going to find out what is the truth. Truth cannot be given to you by somebody. You have to discover it; and to discover, there must be a state of mind in which there is direct perception. There is no direct perception when there is a resistance, a safeguard, a protection. Understanding comes through being aware of what is. To know exactly what is, the real, the actual, without interpreting it, without condemning or justifying it, is, surely, the beginning of wisdom. It is only when we begin to interpret, to translate according to our conditioning, according to our prejudice, that we miss the truth. After all, it is like research. To know what something is, what it is exactly, requires research - you cannot translate it according to your moods. Similarly, if we can look, observe, listen, be aware of what is, exactly, then the problem is solved. And that is what we are going to do in all these discourses. I am going to point out to you what is, and not translate it according to my fancy; nor should you translate it or interpret it according to your background or training.
Is it not possible, then, to be aware of everything as it is? Starting from there, surely, there can be an understanding. To acknowledge, to be aware of to get at that which is, puts an end to struggle. If I know that I am a liar, and it is a fact which I recognize, then the struggle is over. To acknowledge, to be aware of what one is, is already the beginning of wisdom, the beginning of understanding, which releases you from time. To bring in the quality of time - time, not in the chronological sense, but as the medium, as the psychological process, the process of the mind - is destructive, and creates confusion. So, we can have understanding of what is when we recognize it without condemnation, without justification, without identification. To know that one is in a certain condition, in a certain state, is already a process of liberation; but a man who is not aware of his condition, of his struggle, tries to be something other than he is, which brings about habit. So, then, let us keep in mind that we want to examine what is, to observe and be aware of exactly what is the actual, without giving it any slant, without giving it an interpretation. It needs an extraordinarily astute mind, an extraordinarily pliable heart, to be aware of and to follow what is; because what is is constantly moving, constantly undergoing a transformation, and if the mind is tethered to belief, to knowledge, it ceases to pursue, it ceases to follow the swift movement of what is. What is is not static, surely - it is constantly moving, as you will see if you observe it very closely. To follow it, you need a very swift mind and a pliable heart - which are denied when the mind is static, fixed in a belief, in a prejudice, in an identification; and a mind and heart that are dry cannot follow easily, swiftly, that which is.
One is aware, I think, without too much discussion, too much verbal expression, that there is individual as well as collective chaos, confusion and misery. It is not only in India, but right throughout the world; in China, America, England, Germany, all over the world, there is confusion, mounting sorrow. It is not only national, it is not particularly here, it is all over the world. There is extraordinarily acute suffering, and it is not individual only but collective. So it is a world catastrophe, and to limit it merely to a geographical area, a coloured section of the map, is absurd; because then we shall not understand the full significance of this worldwide as well as individual suffering. Being aware of this confusion, what is our response today? How do we react?
There is suffering, political, social, religious; our whole psychological being is confused, and all the leaders, political and religious, have failed us; all the books have lost their significance. You may go to the Bhagavad Gita or the Bible or the latest treatise on politics or psychology, and you will find that they have lost that ring, that quality of truth; they have become mere words. You yourself who are the repeater of those words, are confused and uncertain, and mere repetition of words conveys nothing. Therefore the words and the books have lost their value; that is, if you quote the Bible, or Marx, or the Bhagavad Gita, as you who quote it are yourself uncertain, confused, your repetition becomes a lie; because what is written there becomes mere propaganda, and propaganda is not truth. So when you repeat, you have ceased to understand your own state of being. You are merely covering with words of authority your own confusion. But what we are trying to do is to understand this confusion and not cover it up with quotations; so what is your response to it? How do you respond to this extraordinary chaos, this confusion, this uncertainty of existence? Be aware of it, as I discuss it: follow, not my words, but the thought which is active in you. Most of us are accustomed to be spectators and not to partake in the game. We read books but we never write books. It has become our tradition, our national and universal habit, to be the spectators, to look on at a football game, to watch the public politicians and orators. We are merely the outsiders, looking on, and we have lost the creative capacity. Therefore we want to absorb and partake.

[taai gihk yahn]

But if you are merely observing, if you are merely spectators, you will lose entirely the significance of this discourse, because this is not a lecture which you are to listen to from force of habit. I am not going to give you information which you can pick up in an encyclopaedia. What we are trying to do is to follow each other's thoughts, to pursue as far as we can, as profoundly as we can, the intimations, the responses of our own feelings. So please find out what your response is to this cause, to this suffering; not what somebody else's words are, but how you yourself respond. Your response is one of indifference if you benefit by the suffering, by the chaos, if you derive profit from it, either economic, social, political or psychological. Therefore you do not mind if this chaos continues. Surely, the more trouble there is in the world, the more chaos, the more one seeks security. Haven't you noticed it? When there is confusion in the world, psychologically and in every way, you enclose yourself in some kind of security, either that of a bank account or that of an ideology; or else you turn to prayer, you go to the temple - which is really escaping from what is happening in the world. More and more sects are being formed, more and more `isms' are springing up all over the world. Because the more confusion there is, the more you want a leader, somebody who will guide you out of this mess, so you turn to the religious books, or to one of the latest teachers; or else you act and respond according to a system which appears to solve the problem, a system either of the left or of the right. That is exactly what is happening.
The moment you are aware of confusion, of exactly what is, you try to escape from it. Those sects which offer you a system for the solution of suffering, economic, social or religious, are the worst; because then system becomes important and not man - whether it be a religious system, or a system of the left or of the right. System becomes important, the philosophy, the idea, becomes important, and not man; and for the sake of the idea, of the ideology, you are willing to sacrifice all mankind, which is exactly what is happening in the world. This is not merely my interpretation; if you observe, you will find that is exactly what is happening. The system has become important. Therefore, as the system has become important, men, you and I, lose significance; and the controllers of the system, whether religious or social, whether of the left or of the right, assume authority, assume power, and therefore sacrifice you, the individual. That is exactly what is happening.
Now what is the cause of this confusion, this misery? How did this misery come about, this suffering, not only inwardly but outwardly, this fear and expectation of war, the third world war that is breaking out? What is the cause of it? Surely it indicates the collapse of all moral, spiritual values, and the glorification of all sensual values, of the value of things made by the hand or by the mind. What happens when we have no other values except the value of the things of the senses, the value of the products of the mind, of the hand or of the machine? The more significance we give to the sensual value of things, the greater the confusion, is it not? Again, this is not my theory. You do not have to quote books to find out that your values, your riches, your economic and social existence are based on things made by the hand or by the mind. So we live and function and have our being steeped in sensual values, which means that things, the things of the mind, the things of the hand and of the machine, have become important; and when things become important, belief becomes predominantly significant - which is exactly what is happening in the world, is it not?
Thus, giving more and more significance to the values of the senses brings about confusion; and, being in confusion, we try to escape from it through various forms, whether religious, economic or social, or through ambition, through power, through the search for reality. But the real is near, you do not have to seek it; and a man who seeks truth will never find it. Truth is in what is - and that is the beauty of it. But the moment you conceive it, the moment you seek it, you begin to struggle; and a man who struggles cannot understand. That is why we have to be still, observant, passively aware. We see that our living, our action, is always within the field of destruction, within the field of sorrow; like a wave, confusion and chaos always overtake us. There is no interval in the confusion of existence.
Whatever we do at present seems to lead to chaos, seems to lead to sorrow and unhappiness. Look at your own life and you will see that our living is always on the border of sorrow. Our work, our social activity, our politics, the various gatherings of nations to stop war, all produce further war. Destruction follows in the wake of living; whatever we do leads to death. That is what is actually taking place. Can we stop this misery at once, and not go on always being caught by the wave of confusion and sorrow? That is, great teachers, whether the Buddha or the Christ, have come; they have accepted faith, making themselves, perhaps, free from confusion and sorrow. But they have never prevented sorrow, they have never stopped confusion. Confusion goes on, sorrow goes on. If you, seeing this social and economic confusion, this chaos, this misery, withdraw into what is called the religious life and abandon the world, you may feel that you are joining these great teachers; but the world goes on with its chaos, its misery and destruction, the everlasting suffering of its rich and poor. So, our problem, yours and mine, is whether we can step out of this misery instantaneously. If, living in the world, you refuse to be a part of it, you will help others out of this chaos - not in the future, not tomorrow, but now. Surely that is our problem. War is probably coming, more destructive, more appalling in its form. Surely we cannot prevent it, because the issues are much too strong and too close. But you and I can perceive the confusion and misery immediately, can we not? We must perceive them, and then we shall be in a position to awaken the same understanding of truth in another. In other words, can you be instantaneously free? - because that is the only way out of this misery. Perception can take place only in the present; but if you say, "I will do it tomorrow the wave of confusion overtakes you, and you are then always involved in confusion.
Now is it possible to come to that state when you yourself perceive the truth instantaneously and therefore put an end to confusion? I say that it is, and that it is the only possible way. I say it can be done and must be done, not based on supposition or belief. To bring about this extraordinary revolution - which is not the revolution to get rid of the capitalists and install another group - to bring about this wonderful transformation, which is the only true revolution, is the problem. What is generally called revolution is merely the modification or the continuance of the right according to the ideas of the left. The left, after all, is the continuation of the right in a modified form. If the right is based on sensual values, the left is but a continuance of the same sensual values, different only in degree or expression. Therefore true revolution can take place only when you, the individual, become aware in your relationship to another. Surely what you are in your relationship to another, to your wife, your child, your boss, your neighbour, is society. Society by itself is non-existent. Society is what you and I, in our relationship, have created; it is the outward projection of all our own inward psychological states. So if you and I do not understand ourselves, merely transforming the outer, which is the projection of the inner, has no significance whatsoever; that is there can be no significant alteration or modification in society so long as I do not understand myself in relationship to you. Being confused in my relationship, I create a society which is the replica, the outward expression of what I am. This is an obvious fact, which we can discuss. We can discuss whether society, the outward expression, has produced me, or whether I have produced society.
Is it not, therefore, an obvious fact that what I am in my relationship to another creates society and that, without radically transforming myself, there can be no transformation of the essential function of society? When we look to a system for the transformation of society, we are merely evading the question, because a system cannot transform man; man always transforms the system, which history shows. Until I, in my relationship to you, understand myself I am the cause of chaos, misery, destruction, fear, brutality. Understanding myself is not a matter of time; I can understand myself at this very moment. If I say, "I shall understand myself to-morrow", I am bringing in chaos and misery, my action is destructive. The moment I say that I "shall" understand, I bring in the time element and so am already caught up in the wave of confusion and destruction. Understanding is now, not tomorrow. To-morrow is for the lazy mind, the sluggish mind, the mind that is not interested. When you are interested in something, you do it instantaneously, there is immediate understanding, immediate transformation. If you do not change now, you will never change, because the change that takes place tomorrow is merely a modification, it is not transformation. Transformation can only take place immediately; the revolution is now, not tomorrow.
When that happens, you are completely without a problem, for then the self is not worried about itself; then you are beyond the wave of destruction.

discuss...

[Merryprankster]

I took away three things:

There is an art to actually listening.
Live in the now.
Confusion causes chaos and dispair, knowing the truth prevents that.

My response to that is that it is a nice idea. It would require all people to perceive their truth simultaneously and be fulfilled, or it would require them to perceive THE truth, assuming there was one, and gain the same perspective.

I personally believe that the root of almost all problems is poor communication and misunderstanding. I also believe in finding the similarities between things, more than the differences.

However, there are times in which trying to communicate solves no problems. I will never hear what Hardwork and other conspiracy theorists are saying because I do not accept their core assumptions - ASSUMPTIONS - not "evidence." They will never hear what I am saying because they are bat**** ****ing crazy. The good news is that they don't matter in the course of human events.

[bakxierboxer]

... That happens only when there is real affection between people, between husband and wife, between intimate fiends.

Are those some kind of avatars from Tibetan/Buddhist/Lama traditions?

[taai gihk yahn]

I took away three things:
There is an art to actually listening.
Live in the now.
Confusion causes chaos and dispair, knowing the truth prevents that.
pretty much - although there is something else, I believe: I think he is offering a mechanism by which to do this as well;


My response to that is that it is a nice idea. It would require all people to perceive their truth simultaneously and be fulfilled, or it would require them to perceive THE truth, assuming there was one, and gain the same perspective.
I think it's it's more than a "nice" idea - I suggest it's a pathway by which the idea can come to fruition - meaning it requires each and every individual to be responsible for their own "revolution"
I will grant you, and this is one of the common critiques of K, is that his situation in lie was one wherein he did not need to worry about the "ordinary' problems of life, being generally "kept" from day one by the circumstances of his birth - it certainly appears easier to posses great equanimity when one comes from some sort of relatively "secure" circumstances; if one is starving, living in squalor, watching one's children suffer, running from bombs / bullets, etc., it is much harder to do this; fortunately, none of us reading this thread seem to be in that predicament, yes?


I personally believe that the root of almost all problems is poor communication and misunderstanding. I also believe in finding the similarities between things, more than the differences.
I agree;


However, there are times in which trying to communicate solves no problems. I will never hear what Hardwork and other conspiracy theorists are saying because I do not accept their core assumptions - ASSUMPTIONS - not "evidence." They will never hear what I am saying because they are bat**** ****ing crazy. The good news is that they don't matter in the course of human events.
one of K's main points is that one evaluate critically; it does not mean wholesale acceptance of another's propositions; I would argue that your inability to "hear" what they say based on your belief that they are "crazy" and likewise their potential inability to communicate based on "assumptions' are at the heart of the difficulty; overall, it's predicated on the defacto acceptance of the "I" as the means by which we filter information; not to say that we simply dissolve the ego either - it's a middle ground, the proposition of "choiceless awareness" that K puts forth; my sense is that when one can see how we all come from that initial "I" perspective, then it becomes much easier to not be hooked by another's relatively extremist perspective, and arguing one's own "position" becomes less important as well...


Are those some kind of avatars from Tibetan/Buddhist/Lama traditions?
sarcasm is one of the greatest obstacles to clear-seeing humanity has generated, typically employed when faced by something that makes us uncomfortable

[bakxierboxer]

sarcasm is one of the greatest obstacles to clear-seeing humanity has generated, typically employed when faced by something that makes us uncomfortable

I wouldn't get sarcastic over a retyped passage from Krishnamurti.
I just thought that the "fiends" misspelling could be linked in a "funny" way to the Indian/Buddhist/Tibetan/Lama gods/demons/beings.

[AJM]

I picture PM's between HW and Uki like this:









Or something very close to that....


-David
Pull your head out of your arse.

[uki]

Indian/Buddhist/Tibetan/Lama gods/demons/beings.country/nation/corporation/sumerian-egyptian gods/reptilians/beings... what an interesting parallel.

this moment is the only moment i have to point this out. :)

[CLFLPstudent]

Pull your head out of your arse.

Let me guess, you are an Icke fan?


Bwa ha hahahaha!

K. Bye.

-David

[Hardwork108]

Let me guess, you are an Icke fan?


Bwa ha hahahaha!

K. Bye.

-David


Wether he is an Icke fan or no, I don't know, but he is intelligent enough to see that your head is not where it is supposed to be.

So do take your head out of your @ss as the fresh air will refresh your "mind" and hence make you see the reality in a different light.;)

[Hardwork108]

in response to the question "do you believe that you are free?"

thank you for yours;

You are welcome. It was a profound and relevant question.



I am not in complete disagreement in regards to much of what you post;

Well there is hope for you yet, old boy.:p

Wait a minute, are you referring to my last couple of posts in this thread or to my kung fu posts in general?



I edited most of it out because I wanted to highlight the above statements; so the post is parapharsed, I am not trying to misrepresent you, ok?

I understand.:)


looking at the above three quotes, I find merit in all of them, insofar as they point out what I believe to be the fundamental issues in regards to the idea / concept / notion of freedom; as such, I think that these "truths" are inescapable, in that as long as we try to "solve" them in the way that humanity has always tried to "solve" them, we are going to end up in exactly the same place as we keep ending up in;

That would be because all the "mechanisms" for change are controlled by the same forces.


[INDENT]J. Krishnamurti
THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM (1954)
CHAPTER 1 .................................................. .................................................



Very wise words and thank you for posting them and I mean it, even if others here may go on to accuse you of wearing a tin hat.

What I get from this is that one has to free his mind from prejudice,doctrines, including from the various "isms" to be able to see the facts clearly and then to continue CHANGE himself accordingly.

By seeing through the illusions one will be able to change himself and by extension the world. Or at least that is what I got from these writings.

So there is no talk of revolution and war to solve the problems that have been with because such things do not change the end result.

Funnily enough that is what Icke proposes. Which is basically,"change yourself (or &#180;wake up`) and make others do so, and then the changes will take care of themselves". Again, no talk of war nor revolutions as these would not function against elements who have been architects of wars and revolutions (and their outcomes) for centuries.

HW108

P.S. Taai gihk yahn, there is hope for you and me, yet.

[CLFLPstudent]

Too tired tonight to give a full response, but don't you conspiracy/'enlightened' alternative view guy's see you are the same as the fundamentalist religious types? The only way to truth is through our doors.... Ignore us at your soul's peril.....
We have the real truth, you just need to trust and believe in us...

Same message, just an 'alternative' view instead of the traditional judeo/christian point of view. There is a big evil ( Satan/Illuminati) that is keeping you oppressed, but through us ( Church/Temple/Psilocybin/Remote Viewing) you will see the error of you ways and, to quote the whackjob Icke , "The Truth Shall Set You Free"

People have been predicting the end of mankind for centuries, but it keeps not happening. In the very recent past it has been Hale-Bop, Y2K, 5/5/200. Coming up we have 2012... what happens when nothing happens? A new 'threat' to our very existence, just not sure what it is yet.

Since I've been doing a lot of work driving at night lately, I've re-visited Coast to Coast AM for radio enjoyment. The only thing is, now I can sort of see it for what it really is - entertainment. People are trying to sell you stuff... and it seems you guy's are buying it hook, line, and sinker..."New Interpretaions of [Insert Favorite "Prophet" Here]" by [Insert Favorite Fringe Author Here]. It's is all about making a buck, playing into people's fears and fantasies.

-David

[taai gihk yahn]

ok, since we are on the topic, let's talk a little bit more about "freedom"

when I first met my teacher, he asked me a very simple question; "why do we practice?"; up to that point, I had never really considered it; I realize now that, up to that point, my reasons were based largely on feelings of fear and inadequacy - my MA practice was a way of feeling better about myself, a means of assuaging a deeper insecurity that I had always known but never acknowledged; of course, I answered by saying something evasive "just because"; he looked at me and said, "no - the point of practice is freedom"; so what does that mean?

HW, MP, uki, Simon all make great points regarding the "truth" that we are all subject to forces beyond our control, be it random path of a stray bullet, or the planned economic policies or corporations / states (be they of benign or malevolent intention is irrelevant, really); we are also slaves to time, illness, old-age, death; to the demands of our daily lives: earning a living, finding shelter, food for ourselves and families, parenthood - all these are restrictions that we either have been placed upon us or that we have taken on willingly; regardless of whether we are resolved to stay on and fight the good fight or if we "check out" and live in the woods as a hermit, we are all still beholden to one thing or another;

Martin Luther King Jr. once said "Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality."; I think it's very much what "K" is saying as well, albeit from a different perspective;

so what is "freedom"? in a world wherein we are all inextricably linked one way or another, can we really talk about being "free", in the sense that many seem to think about it - that is, "I can do whatever I want" - I think at base, that is what many people think it means, assuming that they have thought about it at all...

let me highlight a few things that K. says as points for further discussion, in relation to some of the ideas he puts forth (and I thank those of you who have taken the time to read it and to comment thoughtfully on it):

to observe and be aware of exactly what is the actual, without giving it any slant, without giving it an interpretation...needs an extraordinarily astute mind, an extraordinarily pliable heart, to be aware of and to follow what is; because what is is constantly moving, constantly undergoing a transformation, and if the mind is tethered to belief, to knowledge, it ceases to pursue, it ceases to follow the swift movement of what is.
I think that the take-home message here is that, in order to be able to be able to accurately perceive things and respond appropriately, requires one thing: energy; energy in the sense of both physical fitness but also mental / emotional acuity; in other words, what is "easy" when we are in a situation that challenges us, is to rely on what we already know: prejudices, presuppositions, in a word: habit; that is, we fall back into our usual m.o., and instead of responding, we react; so in order to not do this, to be "pliant" ("sounds like the taiji concept of "sung" to me...), requires a greater expenditure of energy (at least initially) in order to so so;
by analogy, lets look at MA practice - specifically, we can look at push hands (or chi sao, or clinching, etc.) - think about how the physical practice reflects the above principles: if you are dull, tired, non-responsive, you know what happens here - of course, you can still "win", but the quality of the interaction is different - and really, have you learned anything by just relying on what you already know? be clear, I am not talking about fighting per se, but rather training - because I submit to you that the "point" of training, beyond acquiring what K. would call "technical skill" (which is fine, I am all for it), is that we are practicing freedom! meaning that, we challenge ourselves to be responsive, we challenge ourselves to respond appropriately to a relatively unknown situation; we are building up our energy reserves by training and practicing freedom from habit - even when you do the same form every day, you are practicing this: you are seeking spontaneity within so-called "repetition" -

when you repeat, you have ceased to understand your own state of being.

if your form is the "same" ever time, if your practice is the "same" every time, it's not because the practice is the same - YOU are the same; similarly, if you think that it's the same old routine every day - get up, feed the kids, clean the house, go to work, etc., then you are truly enslaved; but if we flip it around, if we can find the freshness within the repetition of "ordinary" life - then what? THIS is K's "instantaneous" transformation -

Transformation can only take place immediately; the revolution is now, not tomorrow. When that happens, you are completely without a problem, for then the self is not worried about itself; then you are beyond the wave of destruction.

this is the method of obliquely coming back to our lives moment by moment and continuously re-discovering, without preconception, the freshness of each moment; THIS is freedom, because freedom is, in and of itself, manifest - it is not based on pre-condition: "x" or "y" is freedom - no, freedom is there, at all times, existing of itself - WE are the ones who need only to let ourselves fall away in order to discover what is there; this is the continuous act of creation, without precondition;

this, of course, is a challenge; and I think that, intuitively, we know this; and this, I believe, is why we practice, why we seek, why,indeed, we get into seemingly endless discussions / arguments as to what is "traditional' versus "functional" - I think that on some basic level, we undertake the practice of MA as a way of not only learning to defend ourselves (which, as "technical knowledge" is definitely worthwhile, no argument), but why we are always looking for, asserting that TMA has "something more" - what is that "something more"? we try to frame it, to argue it - but we are overly concerned with the "what" or the "how" - not so much the "why?"

follow, not my words, but the thought which is active in you

this is critical - this discussion, it's not about K, or me, or any of you - it's about something else: something words cannot necessarily convey; it's beyond the status quo; it's beyond any theories of conspiracy, be they valid or not: because counter-theories of who is in charge is nothing more than simply a construct replacing the more publicly accepted one: things are as they are - however we want to frame them is simply an extra layer that distracts us from true awareness, which is that regardless of how we frame it, there is great suffering, great sorrow in the world

Those sects which offer you a system for the solution of suffering...are the worst; because then system becomes important and not man
so cheering for Obama, or meeting with the Masons, or being convinced that UFO's are controlling the planet - these are all systems; they are not, inherently,concerned with the individual, because the individual will never fully fit into any of these! at some point even the staunchest conspiracy theorist has to say "look, enough - I need to take a walk alone in the woods";

Thus, giving more and more significance to the values of the senses brings about confusion; and, being in confusion, we try to escape from it through various forms...But the real is near, you do not have to seek it; and a man who seeks truth will never find it. Truth is in what is - and that is the beauty of it.
so here we are - at the "moment of truth", so to speak; are we free at this very moment? have we undergone true transformation? are we at this precise instant fully awake to the "suchness" of things as they are?

So, our problem, yours and mine, is whether we can step out of this misery instantaneously. If, living in the world, you refuse to be a part of it, you will help others out of this chaos - not in the future, not tomorrow, but now. Surely that is our problem. Now is it possible to come to that state when you yourself perceive the truth instantaneously and therefore put an end to confusion? I say that it is, and that it is the only possible way.

so I think we need to be very careful: I think in our haste to create a solution to a problem, we do nothing more than just change the outward conditions - we see the suffering around us and decide to reframe the context of what creates them - this gives us a rationale, a justification for our cynicism, nothing more - it "excuses" us from actively becoming part of the solution, because we have seen the man behind the curtain; but in truth, are we, or the world, an better for it? if we recognize the suffering and the struggle going on all around us and create a shelter for ourselves based on our assessment of who is really in control, are we any different from those who pull the strings on a large scale? not really - we have just hunkered down and checked out: running out to live in the woods is no different than signing up and becoming part of some big corporation; debating just who is "really" in charge yields nothing but more contention; this is not the answer, I believe;

rather, it is up to each of us to become a source of revolution, not be what we think, but by what we are - by first looking deeply at ourselves, and understanding who each of us uniquely is, without covering up, without judgement, without fear: when we can see ourselves clearly, and really understand how we operate individually, then we are free - free to be ourselves; and from this very moment, the whole world is changed...

[Merryprankster]

Based on the above, my short summary of your entire collection of posting still stands


My response to that is that it is a nice idea. It would require all people to perceive their truth simultaneously and be fulfilled, or it would require them to perceive THE truth, assuming there was one, and gain the same perspective."[

Sorry, but it's true. The only person or thing you have the power to change is yourself - that I grant - but the idea that we're all going to do it for the "Better" is pretty much just what I said "a nice idea." It suggests NOTHING other than a path to individual betterment. I won't call it impossible, but let's just say it's so highly improbable that it would be pointless to calculate.

Finally, as regards me and conspiracy theorists and theories, your thoughts about the root of the problem - while eloquent - is ultimately meaningless for one simple reason. They are bat**** crazy, and so are their ideas. Critical judgment dictates nothing less.

[Hardwork108]

rather, it is up to each of us to become a source of revolution, not be what we think, but by what we are - by first looking deeply at ourselves, and understanding who each of us uniquely is, without covering up, without judgement, without fear: when we can see ourselves clearly, and really understand how we operate individually, then we are free - free to be ourselves; and from this very moment, the whole world is changed...

Thank you. By the way, I did read the your whole post and with interest. I just want to clarify that I believe that true freedom comes from within and once we all free ourselves from dogma and the various other "isms" we fascilitate our personal path to freedom.

In my previous answer to your question, wether I considered myself free, I should have answered that on the spiritual level, I do. Of course, no matter how free one is inside, he can still be controlled on the physical level, by laws, by wars, by cr@p that is put in our foods and so on.

A couple of weeks ago I was sitting more or less where I am sitting now in the local internet cafe here in Cali, Colombia, when a bomb went off about 60 yards from me. Thankfully no one was hurt. Some windows were broken but fortunately no one was walking by the garbage can where the bomb was placed. If they had then they would have been dead or maimed for life.

I would bet that the bomb or the materials within it were not made here in Colombia and they can probably be sourced to countries who preach peace and human rights to everyone under the sun.

So, I do consider myself free as far as in spirit (not talking about religion either) but not in the physical sense because as I see it there are elements in the world that spending huge amounts of money and resources to cause as much suffering as possible with the end goal of total control on the human race.

The current attempts at centralizing world power is not for the benefit of human kind but to fascilitate the job of the people who are already in control now, as we speak. People who don't see this are truly blind, including on the spiritual level.


By the way, here is a link that is relevant to exploitation that is going on as we speak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WstddMJZQ

[uki]

Finally, as regards me and conspiracy theorists and theories, your thoughts about the root of the problem - while eloquent - is ultimately meaningless for one simple reason. They are bat**** crazy, and so are their ideas. Critical judgment dictates nothing less.and yet here you pass judgement based soley on how you percieve the world, according to your upbringing, and your beliefs... whats to say that your judgement is off? what makes your way of believing things better than another?

the simple fact remains, nothing is impossible. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

Based on the above, my short summary of your entire collection of posting still stands


My response to that is that it is a nice idea. It would require all people to perceive their truth simultaneously and be fulfilled, or it would require them to perceive THE truth, assuming there was one, and gain the same perspective."[


Sorry, but it's true. The only person or thing you have the power to change is yourself - that I grant - but the idea that we're all going to do it for the "Better" is pretty much just what I said "a nice idea." It suggests NOTHING other than a path to individual betterment. I won't call it impossible, but let's just say it's so highly improbable that it would be pointless to calculate.
I don't disagree - but, I am not suggesting that we do anything for the "better" - "better" is also a conditional construct created by the mind with a set of subjective preconditions - this is exactly the problem - we are always told to change for "the better", and look where it has gottne us - nowhere - and i agree it's a "nice idea" - but what I am trying to get to, what K was trying to get to, was to investigate on a level that does not already have the "answer" figured out; it's not concrete in that way - there is no "decision"; it's simply about open-ended awareness - there is no final destination where we have at some point "improved" ourselves or our situation; because when that has happened, then what? I mean look, while it's not ultimately the solution, if you want to go work for the NAACP as opposed to the KKK, or Greenpeace as opposed to advocating for increased logging in the Amazon, I think relatively speaking this is a much better choice, my personal ethic supports it; but this is not the sort of fundamental revolution K talks about - it's merely trading one sort of distraction for another; if we can begin to understand the nature of that mechanism that rives us in this way, that is where we create the sort of space within which we can begin to slow down, to engage in "choiceless awareness", and from there, who knows?
but I agree, this sort of thing occurring on a widespread level is highly improbable / impossible; but let's just start with us, right here, right now - surely, that is worthwhile, no? I mean, no one is suggesting we go out and change the entire world - just to engage this process for ourselves - maybe no world-wide revolution will follow, but would doing so for ourselves cause any additional harm? I think not...


Finally, as regards me and conspiracy theorists and theories, your thoughts about the root of the problem - while eloquent - is ultimately meaningless for one simple reason. They are bat**** crazy, and so are their ideas. Critical judgment dictates nothing less.
their ideas, crazy or not, are still ideas; I don't get stuck on them, whether I believe them or not; personally, I do not buy into the "organized conspiracy" theories - I will agree that there are people in power trying to manipulate certain things, but I see it as fragmented self-interest rather than a unified cabal: I think life is just a lot more complex than having a single explanation like "aliens" or "masons" being behind the strings of power: my critical faculties are satisfied with this perspective; however, my point here is not to argue with their perspective, but rather to view it like I do any other, including my own, as a means of generating an internal sense of self-security, like any other view of "explaining" the reason for why things are as they are; as such, I find that anyone willing to question things, regardless of their conclusions, is ripe for the sort of inquiry I present (not me taking credit or anything, simply acting as a conduit for it) - I mean, despite the inherent improbability of it taking hold on a wide scale, one still does what one can and if opportunity presents to stimulate awareness in this way, one must needs take advantage of it, I think;

[SimonM]

hahahahaha!!! that, an over-inflated machoman ego, a buzz cut, and a few lame celtic tribal tattoos. :D

Let he who has facial tattoos cast the first stone eh Uki?

I've been away for a few days and really don't relish going point-by-point through this mess. So I won't.

I do, however, want to address more of the "reptilian illuminati" stuff further.

Hardwork108 makes the assumption that because shamanistic and syncretic religions incorporating shamanistic elements (such as Santeria and Voudoun) include spirit posession as a form of religious devotion than the freemasons are doing so and furthermore have developed a grand masterplan for world domination drawn from these religious activities because apparently the spirits that posess the freemasons are real lizard spirits and not simply psychological reactions to an attempt to apprehend an abstract concept like the 'divine'.

Now there are a few logical problems with this which I will now enumerate.

1) Tribal religions do it so the freemasons must too. By this argument freemasons at high levels of initiation must all be potheads because Rastafarians smoke weed as a religious devotion.

I'd like to point out that some christians (particularly evangelicals) do the same thing as the voudoun hounguans. They call it 'being slain in the spirit', 'speaking in tongues' and other such names. You needn't even bring tribal religion into the issue if you want to to address beliefs in spiritual posession as an act of devotion. Of course that doesn't sound exotic and mystical - unlike using Santeria.

2) Spirit posession leads to plan for world domination.

O'rly?

I've never heard of pappa ghede jumping up into a hounguan and telling everyone to establish a global financial conspiracy to rule all mankind. Now, to be fair, I have seen evangelical christians saying that God told them to create the conditions necessary for the second coming or what-have-you. But for the most part that just includes trying to rally voters to vote for gay marriage bans. Petty, but hardly a shadow conspiracy. Because they tend to shout it from the rooftops rather than keeping stumph about it.

3) Secretly initiated masons of the nth degree do black magic rites involving being posessed by spiritual lizards.

O'rly?

Proof please.

4) [i]These spiritual lizards are, in fact, real.[/b]

Again, proof please.

[uki]

Let he who has facial tattoos cast the first stone eh Uki?duh... i did cast the first stone because my facial tattoo is of native american origin, not celtic and could hardly be described as being lame. :p

[SimonM]

Starting out by saying I have no tattoos.

Now, saying this, are you telling me Uki that it would be more lame for me to ink my body with the symbols and motifs of my ancestors (I am entirely of Irish / Scottish descent) than for me to appropriate aboriginal north american design motifs?

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL @ the lone tag for this thread !!!

[SimonM]

fixed that. ;)

Oh, and, kicking the HW can again:


According to writer David Icke, 7-foot (2.1 m) tall, blood-drinking reptilian humanoids from the star system Alpha Draconis are the force behind a worldwide conspiracy directed at humanity. The reptilians maintain their control through the generation of fear and negative emotion, which is food to these entities, by manufacturing conflicts, primarily wars. He contends that most of the world's leaders are in fact related to these reptilians.

According to an interview with David Icke, Christine Fitzgerald claims that she was a confidante of Diana, Princess of Wales, and that Diana told her that the British Royal Family were reptilian aliens, and that they could shapeshift.[7] Icke also claims that many presidents of the United States have been and are reptilian humanoids. In his view, United States foreign policy after September 11 is the product of a reptilian conspiracy to enslave humanity completely in a "New World Order," with George W. Bush and other minor and major political figures being the conduits used for the unfolding of this Reptilian conspiracy.

Icke draws connections between the reptilian aliens in his theories and the Annunaki depicted in Zecharia Sitchin's 12th Planet,[8] which has led to other conspiracy theorists referring to reptilian humanoids as the "Annunaki";[9] however, Sitchin himself has always described his Annunaki as purely humanoid.

[sanjuro_ronin]

fixed that. ;)

They're getting better it seems !

[CLFLPstudent]

fixed that. ;)


According to writer David Icke, 7-foot (2.1 m) tall, blood-drinking reptilian humanoids from the star system Alpha Draconis are the force behind a worldwide conspiracy directed at humanity. The reptilians maintain their control through the generation of fear and negative emotion, which is food to these entities, by manufacturing conflicts, primarily wars. He contends that most of the world's leaders are in fact related to these reptilians.

According to an interview with David Icke, Christine Fitzgerald claims that she was a confidante of Diana, Princess of Wales, and that Diana told her that the British Royal Family were reptilian aliens, and that they could shapeshift.[7] Icke also claims that many presidents of the United States have been and are reptilian humanoids. In his view, United States foreign policy after September 11 is the product of a reptilian conspiracy to enslave humanity completely in a "New World Order," with George W. Bush and other minor and major political figures being the conduits used for the unfolding of this Reptilian conspiracy.

Icke draws connections between the reptilian aliens in his theories and the Annunaki depicted in Zecharia Sitchin's 12th Planet,[8] which has led to other conspiracy theorists referring to reptilian humanoids as the "Annunaki";[9] however, Sitchin himself has always described his Annunaki as purely humanoid.


Oh, and, kicking the HW can again:

(Let me preface this by saying I am open to the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe, it's pretty big out there and to think we ( earth) are the only planet with life is the highest form of egocentricity.)

What get's me is if they can travel all of that distance, why not just overtly take over the planet? Why do it in secrecy? They would obviously hold a huge technological edge over us, why not just take over and be done with it?

Very silly, seems like a poorly constructed plan, IMHO.

-David

[SimonM]

The truth is that these "reptoids" say more about the psychology of the people who dreamt them up than about the nature of the world.

[Hardwork108]

I do, however, want to address more of the "reptilian illuminati" stuff further.

That is interesting that it you who brings this up most of the time having missed the more relevant questions in this discussion.


Hardwork108 makes the assumption that because shamanistic and syncretic religions incorporating shamanistic elements (such as Santeria and Voudoun) include spirit posession as a form of religious devotion than the freemasons are doing so

According to my readings, at the highest levels the masons participate in very weird ceremonies. Icke's conclusion is that this involves some kind of a possession.


and furthermore have developed a grand masterplan for world domination

One can assume this fact not from reading out of this world explanations or theories, but by just looking around at the masonic symbolisms that are all over the place in corporation logos, government logos and even on international logos.

Furthermore, many powerful business leaders, government officials, military leaders, men of the legal professions,etc. are members of a secret society that has secret agendas. And all of this in supposedy "democratic" countries. You need to be brain dead not to see food for thought there.



drawn from these religious activities because apparently the spirits that posess the freemasons are real lizard spirits and not simply psychological reactions to an attempt to apprehend an abstract concept like the 'divine'.

the fact is that there is a conspiration on a world wide level. You seem to prefer to stay blind to this in favour of ridiculing aspects that you find unbelievable. That is fine. I ignore most of the out of this world stuff anyway. I just attempted to explain Icke's explanation of them.



Now there are a few logical problems with this which I will now enumerate.

to see any logical problems you need to have a valid point of reference besides your own "I know everything because I am smart", benchmark.


1) Tribal religions do it so the freemasons must too. By this argument freemasons at high levels of initiation must all be potheads because Rastafarians smoke weed as a religious devotion.

Try to read a little about the masonic cult before you make your assumptions.


I'd like to point out that some christians (particularly evangelicals) do the same thing as the voudoun hounguans.

And I like to point out that some evangelical cults were created by freemasons!


They call it 'being slain in the spirit', 'speaking in tongues' and other such names. You needn't even bring tribal religion into the issue if you want to to address beliefs in spiritual posession as an act of devotion. Of course that doesn't sound exotic and mystical - unlike using Santeria.

No one is trying to sound exotic. My point was that such ceremonies result sometimes in what some people describe as possession by "demons". Ikce says that these demons are sometimes reptilian. I am just trying to show you his
perspective and not necessarilly mine, so please don't put words in my mouth!


2) Spirit posession leads to plan for world domination.

If you forget the lizard men for a few minutes and just look around you then you will see many signs that show a world that is suffering with wars, disease, instability and so on, however the same people seem to be making the profits from all this suffering.

You can also see that world power is being centralized as we speak. Guess who is going to be in the center of a centralized world? The same people who are in control now.

So lets stop talking lizards and stick to the nasty people who are closer to home than you think as opposed to existing in some galaxy far, far away!


I've never heard of pappa ghede jumping up into a hounguan and telling everyone to establish a global financial conspiracy to rule all mankind. Now, to be fair, I have seen evangelical christians saying that God told them to create the conditions necessary for the second coming or what-have-you. But for the most part that just includes trying to rally voters to vote for gay marriage bans. Petty, but hardly a shadow conspiracy. Because they tend to shout it from the rooftops rather than keeping stumph about it.

3) Secretly initiated masons of the nth degree do black magic rites involving being posessed by spiritual lizards.

O'rly?

Proof please.

4) [i]These spiritual lizards are, in fact, real.[/b]

Again, proof please.

That is my point to you. There is proof of world conspiration based in the powerful capital cities of the West. All you have to do is look around you without a prejudiced mind and you will see.

As far as the lizard men are concerned, I will leave them to you as you seem to be more obsessed with them than anyone else here. lol.

[Hardwork108]

fixed that. ;)

Oh, and, kicking the HW can again:

I believe that while you read too much into my posts, you have read very little of Icke's work.;)

[Hardwork108]

(Let me preface this by saying I am open to the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe, it's pretty big out there and to think we ( earth) are the only planet with life is the highest form of egocentricity.)

What get's me is if they can travel all of that distance, why not just overtly take over the planet? Why do it in secrecy? They would obviously hold a huge technological edge over us, why not just take over and be done with it?

Very silly, seems like a poorly constructed plan, IMHO.

-David

Will you guys stop your obsessive fixation with aliens and concentrate on the nasty psychopathic humans who are your presidents, prime ministers and so on!

Sheesh!

[Reverend Tap]

Ok, so I suppose I have a few more things to add.

First off, conspiracy theories make their fundamental (flawed) assumption in attempting to ascribe reason and logic to all human activity. The idea that things being so messed up on a global level (or alternately, so "perfectly lined up" in accordance with the theory in question) must be due to a grand "master plan" or at least a large number of people acting in concert in a very logical way. What makes this assumption fundamentally unsound is the simple fact that people often act wholly illogically; individual people will, given the right circumstances, act in ways that are detrimental to themselves for little or even no gain. Consider that people act less logically overall in large groups and multiply by the population of the world, and you have a sea of people acting in ways that make no sense whatsoever, creating lots of strange results that can be interpreted in all sorts of amusing ways.

Second, another fundamentally flawed assumption underlying most conspiracy theories is that the world would somehow be a great, nearly utopian, place if not for the [insert conspiracy here]. This is rarely spelled out directly, but rather is implied; references to how screwed up things are all over the globe followed by discussion of the theory itself leave the reader to infer that there is a causal relationship there, when in reality there's absolutely no reason to assume such. Though the teaching of history (both national and world) in this country is sorely lacking in quality overall and tends toward a reduction to sepia and, further back, a sterile list of major events, a genuine look at global history reveals a world that has simply always been tumultuous, and likely always will be.

Third, the preponderance of the "look around you, their symbols are everywhere" argument belies a lack of real evidence in the theory. The symbols involved are nearly always simple ones: triangles, stars, certain numbers, and so on. These symbols, by dint of their very simplicity and the ease with which they can be recognized, will be found pretty much everywhere, even lacking human involvement; numbers will almost always be found in the Fibonacci Sequence. This approach also ignores the fundamental fact that, looking for such "evidence," one is bound to see it everywhere, even when it requires complex alterations of the object or image in question to "bring it out" to a casual observer. The same holds true for even more complex imagery than conspiracy theorists tend to discuss; if I told you to keep an eye out for snowman shapes, you would suddenly start to see them everywhere if you were consciously looking for them. It simply doesn't mean anything.

Lastly, most conspiracy theories fall short of explaining just what the supposed sinister groups "running the show" are doing, simply making vague statements about their alleged control and allowing the reader's mind to run with it. This sort of argument, historically speaking, actually empowers existing "secret societies" by propping them up to appear more powerful and mysterious than they really are. Take, for example, the Ku Klux Klan. Less than a century ago, there were people terrified of the "secret rituals" and "mysterious powers" of the Klan. These were people who wore scary robes, conducted secret meetings, and named themselves after mythical creatures. People ascribed to them the same sort of power you typically hear about today with the Masons. That all changed when, of all things, a writer for DC managed to gain entry into the Klan, surreptitiously making note of what really went on. Shortly thereafter, "Superman vs the KKK" started appearing nationwide, showing the mysterious Klan members for what they really were; a bunch of hicks who generally got together to hang out, drink, and b!tch about the world, and very little else. The popularity, reputation, and mystique associated with the Klan vanished practically overnight. It is no major stretch of the imagination, and indeed is the most logical assumption possible absent real evidence, that the Masons et al are very much the same, when all the exotic ceremony and secretiveness is stripped away.

[SimonM]

Reverend Tap said everything I intended to say with perfect eloquence. The only thing I can add in the slightest to his argument is to point out that the masons really aren't that secretive... and they are basically as he described.

[Hardwork108]

First off, conspiracy theories make their fundamental (flawed) assumption in attempting to ascribe reason and logic to all human activity. The idea that things being so messed up on a global level (or alternately, so "perfectly lined up" in accordance with the theory in question) must be due to a grand "master plan" or at least a large number of people acting in concert in a very logical way.

That is exactly what is happening!

Take the Middle Eastern example. Look at the wars and see where the money is being made, that is, arms sales; construction projects (immediately following the destruction projects!); The resultant destroyed economies who will need more "help" (read extortionate loans) to reconstruct themselves.

Look at the Third World loan crisis. See who benefits from the billions of dollars of interest payed by the Latin Americas and other developing countries. Look at how these countries got into the loans in the first place, and who it was that coerced them into this slavery.

If you investigate then you will see the same elements involved most of the time!


What makes this assumption fundamentally unsound is the simple fact that people often act wholly illogically; individual people will, given the right circumstances, act in ways that are detrimental to themselves for little or even no gain.

We are not talking about "individual" people here.


Consider that people act less logically overall in large groups and multiply by the population of the world, and you have a sea of people acting in ways that make no sense whatsoever, creating lots of strange results that can be interpreted in all sorts of amusing ways.

We are not talking about interpretations here, neither are we talking about large numbers of people acting in random!

We are talking about a large number of people with a GOAL!

An AGENDA if you will. Are you saying that a large number well organized people cannot have a goal?

Just look at corporations such as Coca Cola. They have tens of thousands of people who work for them and are united by the single goal of keeping Coke as the number one softs drinks manufacturer and they continue this agenda generation after generation.

The fact is that there are powerful elite elements embedded in Western society that have the goal of running the world through economic, military and soon to be technological control. You can call them what you want but to achieve their ends they use secrecy and camouflage.

They divide and rule at national as well as international level.

Furthermore, these elements/societies/families, call them what you want, are not a new phenomenom and have been around for hundreds of years.


Second, another fundamentally flawed assumption underlying most conspiracy theories is that the world would somehow be a great, nearly utopian, place if not for the [insert conspiracy here]. This is rarely spelled out directly, but rather is implied; references to how screwed up things are all over the globe followed by discussion of the theory itself leave the reader to infer that there is a causal relationship there, when in reality there's absolutely no reason to assume such. Though the teaching of history (both national and world) in this country is sorely lacking in quality overall and tends toward a reduction to sepia and, further back, a sterile list of major events, a genuine look at global history reveals a world that has simply always been tumultuous, and likely always will be.

I would say that the implication is that there would be LESS carnage and bloodshed if countries such as the US and United Kingdom (and others) were not actively encouraging wars and internal termoils in countries such as Iraq, Iran,Afghanistan,Vietnam (in the past),Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia (more recently), Georgia, Parts of Africa and other places.

Wherever there is a war there are people with U.S/European made weapons shooting the hell out of each other. Yes even groups that the said countries condemn. I mean what do these "rebels" or "Freedom Fighters" do to get their weapons? Do they go to supermarkets?


Third, the preponderance of the "look around you, their symbols are everywhere" argument belies a lack of real evidence in the theory. The symbols involved are nearly always simple ones: triangles, stars, certain numbers, and so on. These symbols, by dint of their very simplicity and the ease with which they can be recognized, will be found pretty much everywhere, even lacking human involvement; numbers will almost always be found in the Fibonacci Sequence. This approach also ignores the fundamental fact that, looking for such "evidence," one is bound to see it everywhere, even when it requires complex alterations of the object or image in question to "bring it out" to a casual observer.

It is easy to see masonic symbols everywhere simply because they ARE EVERYWHERE! Research their symbolism then you will see them all over the place in company logos, including those of media/film/Oil/etc. companies!

Look at the one dollar note and you will see the pyramid with the all seeing eye symbol. There is no imagination nor interpretation about it, IT IS THERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE! Yes the currency note of the most powerful nation in the world carries masonic symbolism.

Furthermore, the legal systems of both the US and the Uk are "infested" by masons. So are the higher levels of government. And this is true in other countries as well. Policitical parties' logos often have masonic symbolisms..When you know what to look for then you will see them.



The same holds true for even more complex imagery than conspiracy theorists tend to discuss; if I told you to keep an eye out for snowman shapes, you would suddenly start to see them everywhere if you were consciously looking for them. It simply doesn't mean anything.

Well try this. Get a good book or look for info on masonic symbolism and then check out the logos of the most powerful companies/governments/political groups/etc. in the world. See what comes up first, masonic symbols or the snowman!


Lastly, most conspiracy theories fall short of explaining just what the supposed sinister groups "running the show" are doing, simply making vague statements about their alleged control and allowing the reader's mind to run with it. This sort of argument, historically speaking, actually empowers existing "secret societies" by propping them up to appear more powerful and mysterious than they really are.

They are powerful enough as it is and they have not needed anyone's proping up.

You really should read about this as there is a lot of material out there. If you close your mind and think that everyone who talks about world conspiracies is wearing a tin hat and waiting to be invaded by the Martians then you are not going to see and connect the dotes as regards the mess this world is in now.



Take, for example, the Ku Klux Klan. Less than a century ago, there were people terrified of the "secret rituals" and "mysterious powers" of the Klan. These were people who wore scary robes, conducted secret meetings, and named themselves after mythical creatures. People ascribed to them the same sort of power you typically hear about today with the Masons.

Funny you should site the above example as Albert Pike, the founder of the Ku Klux Klan was said to be a high level Freemason. See where I am coming from, now?


It is no major stretch of the imagination, and indeed is the most logical assumption possible absent real evidence, that the Masons et al are very much the same, when all the exotic ceremony and secretiveness is stripped away.

It is no major stretch of imagination that the existance of a secret organization whose higher level members include the elite of the elite of the Western (so called Democratic) world, exploiting the cr@p out of the Third World in every immoral way possible, is connected and aids the said exploitation!!!

[Hardwork108]

Reverend Tap said everything I intended to say with perfect eloquence.

Then you should read my response and perhaps you will be enlightened.


The only thing I can add in the slightest to his argument is to point out that the masons really aren't that secretive

That is because no one looks for secrets that he thinks don't exist.



... and they are basically as he described.

Not really. I would say that most of them are just normal people who don't know what is going on.

The majority of them do not climb high enough to know what is going on and they are the "visible" face of this society, eg the charity funtions and the good deeds, etc.

What you should do is read a little and investigate for yourself. Have a look at world events without naively trusting in the "goodness" of your leaders. If you see the fact that the leaders of the most powerful countries in the world are psychopaths and that they have been selected and put into power by people other than the "voting" population, then world events and perhaps even some aspects of your own life, will make more sense to you.

[CLFLPstudent]

HW - did you read "Behold A Pale Horse" by William Cooper?


-David

[SimonM]

Since it's clear that no amount of logic will convince HW that his "conspiracion theorizacion" is flawed I'm throwing in the towel. I have no interest in replying to the same drivel repeatedly with the same answers.

It's boring.

HW should learn from Uki. He manages to disagree with me with about the same level of frequency about the fundamental nature of reality and yet I find him the precise opposite. It's all about HOW you debate.

[Hardwork108]

HW - did you read "Behold A Pale Horse" by William Cooper?


-David

No, I haven't read it. What is it about?

[Hardwork108]

Ok, here is an interesting review I found in Amazon by a guy called Robert:

By Robert (Jacksonville, Florida.) - See all my reviews

Let me start this review with the truth about Bill's death. Milton William Cooper (58) was shot and killed by deputies of the Apache County (Arizona) Sheriff's Office while they were attempting to serve an arrest warrant for aggravated assault and endangerment on Nov. 5, 2001. I won't go into any further details, since the reader can find more information on the web - and some of it is even RIGHT!!!
His death on "unrelated" charges is most interesting to me. Were those charges just a way to shut him up and discredit him at the same time? Did the sheriff's office go to his home that evening with the intent of getting their man dead and not alive? While I don't have any proof about this, it does stir my imagination.

There are two things to keep in mind while reading this that will help you absorb the information inside his book.

1) This book was published in 1991. You'll understand the significance of that date as he accurately predicts events that have come to pass!

2) Disregard all of the instances where he talks about "alien" U.F.O.'s, moon bases, and other extraterrestrial issues. He later said that all such documents he saw while in Naval Intelligence on those issues were false information to mislead the reader.

Let's start the review!

INTRODUCTION

FOREWORD

1) SILENT WEAPONS FOR QUIET WARS

A reprint of a document found in a IBM copier bought at a surplus sale. In short this document is a blue print for controlling a population. Some have claimed that it's a fake. If it's a fake then someone went to great lengths to draft such a insightful document - but why?

2) SECRET SOCIETIES AND THE NEW WORLD ORDER

A good introduction to secret societies like the Freemasons, Jason Group, Trilateral Commission, CFR, and the Illuminati. On page 72 he accurately predicted that the Galileo spacecraft was going to crash into Jupiter in an attempt to ignite its atmosphere! (Anyone out there remember 2010 and what happened to Jupiter in that movie?)

3) OATH OF INITIATION OF AN UNIDENTIFIED SECRET ORDER

You'll have to decide for yourself if you want to believe this oath.

4) SECRET TREATY OF VERONA

A sample of how Monarchs use treaties to regain their crowns.

5) GOOD-BY USA, HELLO NEW WORLD ORDER

Plans for the suspension of the Constitution and the role of Mt. Weather in bringing it about.

6) H.R. 7049 & FEMA

After reading this chapter you won't doubt the real purpose of FEMA.

7) ANTI-DRUG ABUSE ACT OF 1988

An excellent example of how congress (which is the opposite of progress!) passes legislation which on the surface seems to be reasonable, but under the surface it's really an attempt to suspend due proses, trail by jury, and bring about a police state!

8) ARE THE SHEEP READY TO SHEER?

It covers an Oklahoma law that requires residents of that state to declare to the tax collector every piece of property that they own! A good way for the government to know what you own - especially guns!

9) ANATOMY OF AN ALLIANCE

A discussion about population control and various attempts to decrease the world's population. On page 168 he reveals the origins of AIDS (H.B. 15090) and how it was spread by vaccine. How international wars are created for population control.

10) LESSONS FROM LITHUANIA

A short (two page) but excellent article by Neal Knox on gun control.

11) COUP DE GRACE

A transcript of a conversation between Bill and Randall Terpstra, who was a radioman and crypto operator in the U.S. Navy. They discuss how Nixon was forced to resign by the U.S. military, U.F.O.'s, "Operation Majority," and so on.

12) THE SECRET GOVERNMENT

He discusses a lot about aliens and U.F.O.'s in this chapter. On page 215 he reveals the truth about the assassination of J.F.K. How Prozac is used along with hypnosis and mind control techniques to motivate people to commit mass shootings in order to disarm the public.

13) TREASON IN HIGH PLACES

An article on how treaties can be used to erode the sovereignty of the U.S.A.

14) A PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL MODEL FOR THE NEWSTATES OF AMERICA

A reprint of a proposed socialist constitution by the Center for Democratic Studies. It's hard to believe that $25,000,000 was spent on this trash.

15) PROTOCOLS OF THE WISE MEN OF ZION

Is this document really the protocols of the Illuminati? Read it and decide for yourself.

16) THE STORY OF JONATHAN MAY

A 26 page story about what happens when someone challenged the Fed money system.

17) DOCUMENTATION: U.S. ARMY INTELLIGENCE CONNECTION WITH SATANIC CHURCH

The title is self-explanatory.

APPENDIXES
A) WILLIAM COOPER'S MILITARY RECORD
B) UFOs AND AREA 51
C) ALIEN IMPLANTS
D) AIDS
E) NEW WORLD ORDER
F) U.S. GOVERNMENT DRUG INVOLVEMENT
G) KURZWEIL vs. HOPKINS

Comments (4) | Permalink | Was this review helpful to you? (Report this)

CLFLPstudent,

Well it looks like a fascinating read and I will do my best to get my hands on a copy of his book and then I will be able to get a better idea of what he was all about and wether I can make any sense of his stuff myself.

What is your opinion of his work? To be honest his name did not ring any bells but I am sure that I have come across accounts of his death in that shoot out, somewhere.

[CLFLPstudent]

No, I haven't read it. What is it about?

A lot of what you write makes me think you have read the book, and have taken it to heart.... Along with Icke.

He had 'written' a book which was mainly just transcripts from his 'lectures', going on and on about the illuminati, the masons, UFO's, the Protocols of Zion, loads of stuff like that. A bit on the Kennedy assassination and his 'attempts' to show the Zapruder film "un-edited" on prime time US tv, but ( wait for it......) it was squashed by higher ups ( who else?) just before it was supposed to air.

A lot like Marrs, where there is a whole crapload of bunk thrown at the wall, and you the reader can decide which stick according to your belief set.

Still waiting for the new star of Jupiter to be born from the Gallileo spacecraft crashing into it ( was supposed to happen in 1999)

Sadly - Milton was killed by police in 2001, after firing on them while attempting to run away from an assault with a deadly weapon warrant ( he pulled a gun on a local Doctor who drove by his house). Can't say I'm surprised.

-David

[SimonM]

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

Well played CLFLPstudent.

[Hardwork108]

A lot of what you write makes me think you have read the book, and have taken it to heart.... Along with Icke.

Then you make an incorrect assumption. I don't take anything to heart that I can't relate to myself. I don't talk about UFOs, aliens and Lizard Men because I just don't know, but if you ask me if there is a world conspiracy for domination and control, then I will say yes there is and I can see it for myself.

Why can I see it?

Because I bother to look!

But to look and see then you need a clear mind. If you sit there and think that everyone who thinks outside the political box is wearing a tin hat or is a "conspiracy theorist" then you are not going to go far.


He had 'written' a book which was mainly just transcripts from his 'lectures', going on and on about the illuminati, the masons, UFO's, the Protocols of Zion, loads of stuff like that. A bit on the Kennedy assassination and his 'attempts' to show the Zapruder film "un-edited" on prime time US tv, but ( wait for it......) it was squashed by higher ups ( who else?) just before it was supposed to air.

Again, I don't know much about him but do you really believe in the existance of a "free" press or media? If so then I would like to invite you for tea so that you can meet my lizard men friends and who will be coming to see me in their flying elephant.


Sadly - Milton was killed by police in 2001, after firing on them while attempting to run away from an assault with a deadly weapon warrant ( he pulled a gun on a local Doctor who drove by his house). Can't say I'm surprised.

What is there to be surprised about? An allegedly high level ex-intelligence officer who is allegedly revealing nasty truths about an allegedly Democratic government, with allegedly the most powerful intelligence agency on the planet, gets himself shot dead by officials of the same government.

That is a simple every day occurance. All evidence is circumstantial so nothing to worry about, it happens all the time.:D

[SimonM]

How about a paranoid delusional with a fondness for firearms and a tendency to brandish such on innocent people due to his delusion. A paranoid delusional who fears the state.

Sees cops coming, gets violent, gets shot. Case closed.

[Hardwork108]

Since it's clear that no amount of logic will convince HW that his "conspiracion theorizacion" is flawed I'm throwing in the towel. I have no interest in replying to the same drivel repeatedly with the same answers.

That is because you have no interest in the real issues. You just want something you can ridicule to feel good about yourself. If you were intersted in facts then you would have asked me for references regarding all this CONSPIRACY and the CORRUPTION that goes with it, yet you didn't!


It's boring.

You are d@mned right it is boring. People like you always get their "facts" from the evening news and as a result they lack enough knowledge to discuss this type of subjects.

The fact is that the press is controlled. People like you never see it because you are afraid to look!


HW should learn from Uki.

I think you should learn from Uki as well.;)



It's all about HOW you debate.

I see, so far in this thread you have "debated" my spelling of the word, conspiracy, in various posts I might add; you have accused me of wearing a tin hat and you have accused me of believing in aliens, lizardmen and being dillusional, after which I dared to bring politics and facts (which yoiu have ignored) into the discussion thus taking away your cause to ridicule.

Yes you are right, it is all in the way one "debates".:rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Right, I'm debating to entertain. You are trying to win your paranoid survivalist merit badge.

I mean, come on, seeing a government conspiracy in small-town police firing on a gun nut?

[Hardwork108]

How about a paranoid delusional with a fondness for firearms and a tendency to brandish such on innocent people due to his delusion. A paranoid delusional who fears the state.

Sees cops coming, gets violent, gets shot. Case closed.

Well that does not sound like the behavior of a highly trained (ex-) intelligence officer. Even so, as I said before I am not familiar with his story so there may be many factors that I am not aware of, but I find it alarming that people like you buy the official version with blind trust in the authorities.

Of course, you can give the police the benefit of the doubt but at the same time it is healthy, when considering the circumstances, to prode a bit deeper, just in case. However, people like you never do that because you are true believers and you have already decided that you know "everything".

[Hardwork108]

Right, I'm debating to entertain. You are trying to win your paranoid survivalist merit badge.

I mean, come on, seeing a government conspiracy in small-town police firing on a gun nut?

I am seeing cause to be suspiscious taking into account the "gun nut's" identity and background.

[SimonM]

I am suspitious of his claimed background.

And with good reason.


Milton William Cooper (May 6, 1943 - November 5, 2001) was an American writer, shortwave broadcaster. Cooper came to public awareness in the late 1980s.

The son of a U.S. Air Force officer, Bill graduated in 1961 from Yamato High School in Japan, and enlisted in the U.S. Air force. He was honorably discharged in 1965, and enlisted in the U.S. Navy in December of that year. He served in Vietnam, rising to the rank of petty officer. Cooper was awarded the Navy Commendation Medal with combat V and the Navy Achievement Medal with combat V. He was honorably discharged in 1975.[1]



The guy was honorably discharged as an NCO from the navy. I can find nothing to verify he had any involvement with naval intelligence but, regardless, he was never a "high level ex-intelligence officer" - at best he was a step above the grunts.

[Hardwork108]

If you are really interested then you can take some time to check out the following links. There are no lizards, UFOs, aliens and people with tin hats nor is there any references to David Icke.

Watch them and see if you see a correlation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WstddMJZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKPa8m07txg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3cJ5IsCt5Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPRJjP7h4Q4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNF3NSHDzYM&feature=related





http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8438833120507357139



http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=freedom+to+fascism&emb=0#


And finally you can have a quick read of this piece taken from the excellent book, A Century of War ..... by William Engdahl

It is about the so called Iranian "Revolution", the overthrowing of the Shah of Iran, who in his naivity believed himself to be a friend of the U.S. (and the UK).

[SimonM]

Abandoning your high-level intelligence officer (er... naval petty officer) eh?

As for Engdahl:


Engdahl stated in 2007 that he had come to believe that petroleum is not produced from remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae, which had settled to a sea or lake bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions (the theory supported by physical evidence as well as the majority of petroleum geologists and engineers[1]). Instead he now believes in the hypothesis that petroleum is produced underground by unknown materials, conditions and forces deeper down in the Earth's core. Engdahl calls himself an "ex peak oil believer", stating that peak oil is actually a political phenomenon.[2]

With regards to Engdahl's (more topical) claim that the USA engineered the overthrow of the Shah of Iran I will comment with slightly less disdain.

First off this doesn't support your "masons are the nwo" hypothesis. It certainly doesn't support your now abandoned "David Icke is right" position. Instead it presents the USA as a monolithic political entity that thrust always entirely in the same direction.

It seems likely that George Ball would have likely not been opposed to the "islamic balkanization" model of governance in Iran in order to fight the cold war, so with regards to his argument about this man Engdahl may not be entirely off base. On the other hand Brzezinski seems to have favored supporting the Shah quite vocally. That being said the state department seemed to disagree with him. This returns to previous comments about the inherently chaotic nature of human interaction.

Honestly Engdahl's writing is all over the place, meandering from slightly cynical but rather mainstream poli-sci straight through to anti-scientific paranoia.

Do you have any authors who wouldn't seem at home in an episode of Fringe?

[Hardwork108]

Abandoning your high-level intelligence officer (er... naval petty officer) eh?

Nobody is "abandoning" anything. As I stated before to CLFPstudent, I am not familiar with this guy. I described him the way I did because that is what I saw implied in one of the links I came across when I did a quick goole search.

The fact seems to be that he was an intelligence officer and that you don't know his level either way, either!

I provided some links that should be food for thought to anyone who is actually interested. Have a look at them if you really care!

[CLFLPstudent]

Then you make an incorrect assumption. I don't take anything to heart that I can't relate to myself. I don't talk about UFOs, aliens and Lizard Men because I just don't know, but if you ask me if there is a world conspiracy for domination and control, then I will say yes there is and I can see it for myself.

Why can I see it?

Because I bother to look!

But to look and see then you need a clear mind. If you sit there and think that everyone who thinks outside the political box is wearing a tin hat or is a "conspiracy theorist" then you are not going to go far.



Again, I don't know much about him but do you really believe in the existance of a "free" press or media? If so then I would like to invite you for tea so that you can meet my lizard men friends and who will be coming to see me in their flying elephant.



What is there to be surprised about? An allegedly high level ex-intelligence officer who is allegedly revealing nasty truths about an allegedly Democratic government, with allegedly the most powerful intelligence agency on the planet, gets himself shot dead by officials of the same government.

That is a simple every day occurance. All evidence is circumstantial so nothing to worry about, it happens all the time.:D

Well, before you crown Milton as a martyr for the anti-illuminati sect, consider this:


Over time, his claims became more outlandish. He claimed that JFK was assassinated by his driver, citing a special 'washed' version of the Zapruder film that seemed to show Kennedy’s driver, William Greer, turning to shoot the President—an allegation since disproven. 6 He later claimed that the aliens in an American television series, "Alien Nation", were real aliens.7

Emphasis added.
From here (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/cooper_m.html).

Footnote 7 taken from here: http://yawp.com/3rd-i/rsrc/gloss/c/coop_m.html

As far as Amazon reviews, nice to take one that gave it 5 stars, how about these (http://www.amazon.com/Behold-Pale-Horse-William-Cooper/product-reviews/0929385225/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar) that call it for what it is?

-David

[SimonM]

The fact seems to be that he was an intelligence officer and that you don't know his level either way, either!

No, that is most certainly not "the fact".

The fact is that he was discharged from the US Navy, left military service and became a private citizen in 1975. He was a petty officer (an NCO) at the time of his honorable discharge.

The guy was probably yet another shell-shocked Vietnam vet who saw too much awfulness overseas and who snapped as a result. He reads like one. That makes his death a sad statement on the deplorable state of mental health support for veterans, but his life reveals no grand conspiracy, alien, terrestrial or otherwise.


Have a look at them if you really care!

Translation: have a look at them if you want to believe. No sceptics allowed.

[Merryprankster]

and yet here you pass judgement based soley on how you percieve the world, according to your upbringing, and your beliefs... whats to say that your judgement is off? what makes your way of believing things better than another?

the simple fact remains, nothing is impossible. :)

Correct. Nothing is impossible provided it does not break the fundamental laws of the universe. However, many many things are improbable.

Yes, I pass judgment - it is my entitlement as a human being. We are practically required to pass judgment by dint of being human. Even he who chooses not to judge has done so for a reason they judge to be proper. Why is that better than another.

There are a billion different ways to answer why my way of believing is superior, or somebody else's is superior. It's not about being superior or better. It is about being correct. There is no value statement attached to that, any more than there is a value statement attached to 2+2=4 or 2+0=4. The first is correct, the second is wrong.

I am concerned with the facts at hand, and the evidence on the conspiracy side of the house does not pass muster. It is utter bull****.

When they bring forth a credible, convincing argument, rooted in actual evidence that isn't all circularly sourced, then their story has credence. To date, they have not. Which is why only ****tards are conspiracy theorists. No reasonable human being can possibly believe anything they say for the simple reason that its a stupid argument.

[Hardwork108]

Well, before you crown Milton as a martyr for the anti-illuminati sect, consider this:


Emphasis added.
From here (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/cooper_m.html).

Footnote 7 taken from here: http://yawp.com/3rd-i/rsrc/gloss/c/coop_m.html

As far as Amazon reviews, nice to take one that gave it 5 stars, how about these (http://www.amazon.com/Behold-Pale-Horse-William-Cooper/product-reviews/0929385225/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar) that call it for what it is?

-David

Again, as I said before I don't know much about this guy. I did a quick search on him and found the info. There are two sides (at least) to every story. I am looking into what you would call conspiracy "theories" holistically, where as you and people like you look for any criticism of a said "theory" and then you jump up and say, "see, it is all BS!".

I provided other links there that should be interesting for anyone who is interested.

[Hardwork108]

No, that is most certainly not "the fact".

Well if you know for a fact that is not a fact then I stand corrected.


The fact is that he was discharged from the US Navy, left military service and became a private citizen in 1975. He was a petty officer (an NCO) at the time of his honorable discharge.
If you are sure that this is a fact then good. I have never relied on his material and as I stated before I don't know much about him.

However, there is a lot of research out there that seems to point at a certain direction. Those who are not interested will never see the facts.

I'll make a comparison if I may with TCMA training where many MA-ists say that forms are useless;internals do not exist or are a con; no need for the long ardeous "rooting" training; kung fu does not work in real fights and so on. They say this because most of them have been exposed to Mcdojos/kwoons and hence conmen are their reference for kung fu training.

The same is true when you look into political or political conspiracy research. I suppose that if you have been exposed to the quacks who are the more visible face of this type of phenomemom and if you yourself are afraid to "venture out" and do some serious research on the subject then of course you are going to site the quacks as your example going on to discredit the whole research, the resultant findings and messages.


The guy was probably yet another shell-shocked Vietnam vet who saw too much awfulness overseas and who snapped as a result. He reads like one.

"Probably"? You are making assumptions there. I don't know the guy but if you know better then I stand corrected.



That makes his death a sad statement on the deplorable state of mental health support for veterans, but his life reveals no grand conspiracy, alien, terrestrial or otherwise.

Again, I don't know. I don't know the man nor his work but at the same time I don't trust the official version of things automatically either. The official version of events has resulted in three wars in the Middle East where 100s of thousands of innocent lives perished and continue to do so. No it was not about oil, power, control and exploitation, it was about "Weapons of Mass destruction" and of course the big bad "Al Queida"...lol,lol,lol.




Translation: have a look at them if you want to believe. No sceptics allowed.

Translation: have a look at them if you don't believe but have the guts and intelligence to see further than you "nose".

No one is asking you to believe. I am not into religious nor political belief systems. I am asking you to look with an open mind.

[Kansuke]

There's some 'authentic' craziness in this thread.

[Hardwork108]

There's some 'authentic' craziness in this thread.

Don't worry about it Kansuke, just carry on eating your "Big Mac", which is very good for your health and of course if it was bad the "carring" government would ban it or at least require it to be modified.

Furthermore keep believing that you live in a "free" country and that everything that is wrong with the world is because, "it is human nature isn't it?"

[Kansuke]

No Big Mac (had okonomiyaki for dinner), but thanks for the free bonus craziness.

[uki]

Correct. Nothing is impossible provided it does not break the fundamental laws of the universe. However, many many things are improbable. so it's highly improbable that an extra-terrestial race of beings, created mankind to slave for them, created religious doctrines to enslave their minds, formed a global cabal that created a market of debt to further enslave mankinds bodies? because after all humankind is the sole and only form of humaniod or intelligent life in all the universe... no other species could possibly exist within all that vastness of space with technological superiority... i believe you just broke one fundamentual law of the universe with this entire post... the justification of doubt... :rolleyes:


Yes, I pass judgment - it is my entitlement as a human being. We are practically required to pass judgment by dint of being human. Even he who chooses not to judge has done so for a reason they judge to be proper. Why is that better than another.passing judgement is fine once you remove the plank from your own eye in order to see clearly enough to remove the speck from someone elses eye.


There are a billion different ways to answer why my way of believing is superior, or somebody else's is superior. that doesn't mean they are correct.


It's not about being superior or better. It is about being correct. There is no value statement attached to that, any more than there is a value statement attached to 2+2=4 or 2+0=4. The first is correct, the second is wrong.again i marvel that people use simple math in order to explain celestial phenomenom... the world was considered factually flat, until it was discovered and proven to be round. just because you cannot see the correctness in things, does not mean they lack being correct.


I am concerned with the facts at hand, and the evidence on the conspiracy side of the house does not pass muster. It is utter bull****.because you are only looking at the facts on hand... remember again, the world was factually taught to be flat, until new facts became on hand that proved it was not... do you see my point? just because you look only at facts on hand, does not mean there are more facts waiting to be put out on the table in time.


When they bring forth a credible, convincing argument, rooted in actual evidence that isn't all circularly sourced, then their story has credence. To date, they have not. Which is why only ****tards are conspiracy theorists. No reasonable human being can possibly believe anything they say for the simple reason that its a stupid argument.again i will ask you to mull over and ponder the flat earth example one more time. :)


There's some 'authentic' craziness in this thread.would you expect anything less?

[Drake]

We can't even get congress to agree on anything, much less have them unite under a global domination theory. In a way, it's kind of good that republicans and dems fight over every little thing.

I AM an intel officer, and I'll let you know right now... there's no global domination plot. You may now put your foil hat back on.

[Reverend Tap]

so it's highly improbable that an extra-terrestial race of beings, created mankind to slave for them, created religious doctrines to enslave their minds, formed a global cabal that created a market of debt to further enslave mankinds bodies? because after all humankind is the sole and only form of humaniod or intelligent life in all the universe... no other species could possibly exist within all that vastness of space with technological superiority... i believe you just broke one fundamentual law of the universe with this entire post... the justification of doubt... :rolleyes:
You're equating the likelihood of there being intelligent life elsewhere in the universe with the likelihood that said intelligent life created mankind as a slave-race while completely hiding their own existence? One does not necessarily follow from the other and it takes a huge leap of faith to jump from the first to the second.


again i marvel that people use simple math in order to explain celestial phenomenom...
No need to use a supercomuter when a pocket calculator will do the job.


the world was considered factually flat, until it was discovered and proven to be round. just because you cannot see the correctness in things, does not mean they lack being correct.
Then do as the astronomers of old did and come back with actual hard proof that the Earth is round and orbits the sun (in this case, meaning hard proof that your conspiracy theories are actually correct), rather than conjecture and faulty logic, and more people will be prepared to believe you.


because you are only looking at the facts on hand... remember again, the world was factually taught to be flat, until new facts became on hand that proved it was not... do you see my point? just because you look only at facts on hand, does not mean there are more facts waiting to be put out on the table in time.
Approximately once per decade, a major paradigm shift occurs in our scientific understanding of the way the universe works, as new information becomes available. Until that new information becomes available, researchers who know very well that what we do know about the universe is insignificant compared to what we don't know still work under the assumption that the paradigm they're operating under is correct. It's all any of us can do. So, until you or another theorist comes up with real, factual proof of your claims' veracity, the most logical thing for any of us to do is continue to work within the overall structure of the paradigm we already know. Expecting people to do otherwise is foolish.

[Merryprankster]

so it's highly improbable that an extra-terrestial race of beings, created mankind to slave for them, created religious doctrines to enslave their minds, formed a global cabal that created a market of debt to further enslave mankinds bodies? because after all humankind is the sole and only form of humaniod or intelligent life in all the universe... no other species could possibly exist within all that vastness of space with technological superiority... i believe you just broke one fundamentual law of the universe with this entire post... the justification of doubt... :rolleyes:
passing judgement is fine once you remove the plank from your own eye in order to see clearly enough to remove the speck from someone elses eye.
that doesn't mean they are correct.
again i marvel that people use simple math in order to explain celestial phenomenom... the world was considered factually flat, until it was discovered and proven to be round. just because you cannot see the correctness in things, does not mean they lack being correct.
because you are only looking at the facts on hand... remember again, the world was factually taught to be flat, until new facts became on hand that proved it was not... do you see my point? just because you look only at facts on hand, does not mean there are more facts waiting to be put out on the table in time.
again i will ask you to mull over and ponder the flat earth example one more time. :)

would you expect anything less?


Learn to read, because you pretty much misunderstood my entire post.

[Drake]

FOUL: "Burden of proof" logical fallacy on the conspiracy theorists.

Reset, try again.

If you need clarification on the fallacy itself, just google it, like you do everything else.

[uki]

Learn to read, because you pretty much misunderstood my entire post.and this is based on what? your logic or my logic.

We can't even get congress to agree on anything, much less have them unite under a global domination theory.never follow a mirage to the water.

In a way, it's kind of good that republicans and dems fight over every little thing.yes, because it causes the people to start fighting over every little thing aswell... it's divide and conquer mentality.


I AM an intel officer, and I'll let you know right now... there's no global domination plot.you won't believe how many people say that.


You may now put your foil hat back on.i don't wear a tin foil hat... the one i have is 100&#37; cashmere wool.



You're equating the likelihood of there being intelligent life elsewhere in the universe with the likelihood that said intelligent life created mankind as a slave-race while completely hiding their own existence? correct.


One does not necessarily follow from the other and it takes a huge leap of faith to jump from the first to the second.makes you wonder why wise men teach to take it... its not called the leap of faith for nothing.


No need to use a supercomuter when a pocket calculator will do the job.yet the pocket calculator could hardly replace a supercomputer when in fact, it is needed.


Then do as the astronomers of old did and come back with actual hard proof that the Earth is round and orbits the sun (in this case, meaning hard proof that your conspiracy theories are actually correct),of course, yet this happened after a period of time of what was originally established as being the truth... from our perspective as a human, the earth is indeed flat, yet from an inner perspective, we understand that the earth is round... this manner of awareness does not stop there.


rather than conjecture and faulty logic, and more people will be prepared to believe you.logic is only faulty is it is built upon lies.


Approximately once per decade, a major paradigm shift occurs in our scientific understanding of the way the universe works, as new information becomes available.actually it just appears this way from our view point in relation to current history... on a grander scale of cycles it is winding down to a much more accelerated rate(imagine the differences in the top and the bottom of spinning, conical medium, such as a tornado or water in a flushing toilet bowl).

Until that new information becomes available, researchers who know very well that what we do know about the universe is insignificant compared to what we don't know still work under the assumption that the paradigm they're operating under is correct. [/quote]much like the world is flat logic again... current researchers will believe what they currently know until it is proven to be incorrect, or rather not the entire picture.


It's all any of us can do.by your reasoning one should simply accept what has been established, yet it is only through the peservation and pursuit of others to awaken themselves to a new paradigm, thus each of us has the responsibility of the whole to seek truth and continue the evolution of our lifes journey... like so many others like to paraphrase, be the change you want to see in the world. are you content with being told what is the truth and what to believe without searching and discovering it for yourself? choosing to blind yourself is your own choice, but its usually the ones who take the leap of faith that find something a little bit more rewarding than the mediocrity of the illusion.


So, until you or another theorist comes up with real, factual proof of your claims' veracity, the most logical thing for any of us to do is continue to work within the overall structure of the paradigm we already know.you know how many times i hear that? LOL, it's a classic i tell ya.

Expecting people to do otherwise is foolish.for every seed that falls on hardened clay, another falls on the fertile soil. :)

[Drake]

I believe the terror organization known as Cobra seeks to conquer the world, and unless you can provide irrefutable proof that they do not exist, you are wrong.

Burden of proof logical fallacy.

You can assert ANYTHING with this fallacy and make yourself sound legit, simply because you are making it the responsibility of someone else to prove your outlandish assumptions to be incorrect.

[Reverend Tap]

correct.
makes you wonder why wise men teach to take it... its not called the leap of faith for nothing.
Taking a leap of faith can be a good thing. Taking a leap of faith in what amounts to a completely random idea is just absurd. I'm not a materialist, nor am I unused to taking certain things "on faith," but there has to be some sort of actual basis for it or you're just believing anything anyone tells you.


yet the pocket calculator could hardly replace a supercomputer when in fact, it is needed.
Irrelevant. Use the tool appropriate for the job. Discussing such phenomena in a very general sense on a kung fu forum, simple math is perfectly adequate.


of course, yet this happened after a period of time of what was originally established as being the truth... from our perspective as a human, the earth is indeed flat, yet from an inner perspective, we understand that the earth is round... this manner of awareness does not stop there.
This manner of awareness comes from people uncovering and making available new facts. If you care to advance your theories, do so.


logic is only faulty is it is built upon lies.
Incorrect. Here (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies) is a listing of 42 different, common logical mistakes that require no dishonesty nor intentional deception to make. Formal logic has a particular structure, and is incapable of functioning and helping one reach a reasonable conclusion if that structure is not properly used.


much like the world is flat logic again... current researchers will believe what they currently know until it is proven to be incorrect, or rather not the entire picture.
by your reasoning one should simply accept what has been established, yet it is only through the peservation and pursuit of others to awaken themselves to a new paradigm, thus each of us has the responsibility of the whole to seek truth and continue the evolution of our lifes journey... like so many others like to paraphrase, be the change you want to see in the world.
What I'm talking about is the only way empirical science can operate. If you don't take past discoveries and the paradigm they form as a given until new information contradicts it, you can't mount a meaningful search for further discovery. To go back to the subject of math for an example, unless you already know and take as given that 2+2=4, you can't even ask the question 4-2=?, much less comprehend the answer. You could argue this point if we were talking about philosophy or spirituality, but you're making claims about the factual and scientific world, so this is pretty much cut-and-dried.


are you content with being told what is the truth and what to believe without searching and discovering it for yourself? choosing to blind yourself is your own choice, but its usually the ones who take the leap of faith that find something a little bit more rewarding than the mediocrity of the illusion.
Pure conjecture on your part. You haven't the slightest clue what I think in terms of politics, society, spirituality, or anything of the sort.


you know how many times i hear that? LOL, it's a classic i tell ya.
for every seed that falls on hardened clay, another falls on the fertile soil. :)
Better hard clay, only admitting the hardiest and most capable of seeds, than quicksand, integrating whatever happens to fall on it indiscriminately.

[uki]

Better hard clay, only admitting the hardiest and most capable of seeds, than quicksand, integrating whatever happens to fall on it indiscriminately.you cannot grow in quicksand... if i was making a metaphor on the properties of quicksand, i would of used quicksand in the analogy, yet as you clearly know i used the words fertile soil, from which a variety of useful crops can be grown, moreso than on the hardened clay which usually only bears thorns and weeds; of course good food and weeds can grow from any ground, but fertile land usually has more of an abundance of farmers to keep it producing a bountiful harvest, clay is good for building the structures to store the crops. so naturally each type of soil has its beneficial use, even quicksand, which can be used to help make mortar to add strength to building with baked bricks. :)

[Drake]

Less metaphors and speculation. More facts, please.

[uki]

More facts, please.fair enough...

the entrance to the bank of switzerland... http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/ubsbank.jpg

a picture from the samuel morse faimly bible... http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/biblepics2005.jpg

co-incidence? this symbol happens to grace the pharmecutical industry, the healthcare industry, it also is seen in representations of the serpent in the garden, usually entwined around the tree, also used to symbolize DNA... of course in the intelligence community, when pieces of the puzzle are put on the table, one has to speculate with the information one has before making a move, no? without speculation there is no movement towards a conclusion. :)

[Drake]

Actually, the serpent is very symbolic, especially in western cultures, and VERY much so in Europe, which is still largely christian. However, you are comparing two separate representations of the serpent, and even more if you count the medical meaning behind the symbolism. This isn't a new discovery, and I thought it was common knowledge for most, especially regarding the rendition in the medical fields. Much of our culture is rooted in christianity, and the appearance of the serpent is no exception. How this would lead to a global conspiracy is beyond me. You could say the same of crosses and various portrayals of angels and demons that litter European countries. They are very religious. It's just the way it is.

[Drake]

The serpents on the medical crest are actually of Greek origin, as noted below:

"Among the Greeks the caduceus is thought to have originally been a herald's staff. The Latin word caduceus (possibly caduceum) is an adaptation of the Greek kerukeion, meaning "herald's wand (or staff)", deriving from kerux, meaning "herald" or "public messenger", which in turn is related to kerusso, meaning "to announce" (often in the capacity of herald).[4] The staff of the herald is thought to have developed from a shepherd's crook, in the form of a forked olive branch adorned with first two fillets of wool, then with white ribbons and finally with two snakes intertwined.[5] However no explanation as to how such an object would be practically used as a functional crook by shepherds is offered.

One Greek myth of origin of the caduceus is part of the story of Tiresias,[6] who found two snakes copulating and killed the female with his staff. Tiresias was immediately turned into a woman, and so remained until he was able to repeat the act with the male snake seven years later. This staff later came in to the possession of the god Hermes, along with its transformative powers. Another myth relates how Hermes played a lyre fashioned from a tortoise shell for Apollo, and in return was appointed ambassador of the gods with the caduceus as a symbol of his office.[7] Another tale suggests that Hermes (or more properly the Roman Mercury) saw two serpents entwined in mortal combat. Separating them with his wand he brought about peace between them, and as a result the wand with two serpents came to be seen as a sign of peace.[8]"

[uki]

The serpents on the medical crest are actually of Greek origin, as noted below.actually it goes quite further back than that... here, go knock yourself out. ::):

sumerian... this symbol belonged to enki:

Enki's emblem was two serpents [twin human DNA] entwined on a staff - the basis for the winged caduceus symbol used by modern Western medicine and the rod of Hermes. Enki's sacred number is 40. He was the leader of the first sons of Anu who came down to Earth, playing a pivotal role in saving humanity from the Deluge. He defied the Anunnaki ruling council and told Ziusudra (the Sumerian Noah) how to build a ship on which to save humanity from the blood. Ea would have been over 120 sars old at that time, yet his activity with humanity continued to be actively reported for thousands of years thereafter.

Enki's youngest son, Ningizzida, was Lord of the Tree of Truth, in Mesopotamia. He played the role of Thoth in Egypt. The ancient Mystery School Teachings of Thoth were past down to his Initiates who became the priests. They hid the secret knowledge of creation, passing it down through the ages until the experiment was to end. Enki was the deity of water, intelligence and creation. The main temple of Enki was the so-called &#233;-engur-ra, the "house of the water-deep" in Eridu, which was in the wetlands of the Euphrates valley at some distance from the Persian Gulf. This takes us to the Cradle of Civilization.


http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html

another interesting read on the caduceus... here's an excerpt:

First, consider some of the connections between the serpent and the staff or rod -- those that go beyond the predictable explanation that a rod looks like a rigid serpent. In the Old Testament, during the exodus from Egypt (Numbers 21), Moses is told by God to construct a fiery serpent of brass and to display it on a pole so that those who had been bitten by poisonous snakes would be healed by gazing upon it. In the Gospel of John (John 3:14), we find this particular serpent image recalled in relation to Christ: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up." This allusion not only makes the serpent potentially divine like Christ, but it associates Christ with the serpent (something quite common in Gnostic texts, as I discussed in "The Binary Serpent"). Earlier, in Sumerian and Akkadian representations of the axis mundi (the axis on which the world spins), one finds a pair of serpents criss-crossed over the rod. In Teutonic myth, Odin's universe is supported by Yggdrasil, "The World Ash." At the top of this cosmic tree is an eagle, and in its roots is the great cosmic serpent, Nidhogg, who will devour the bones of humanity after the great fall. In Buddhist folklore, the Buddha once meditated under the tree of the serpent king. When a rainstorm threatened to get the Buddha wet, a giant cobra wrapped himself around the Buddha's body seven times and opened his great hood over the Buddha's head to keep him dry.

The bird seems already integral to the serpent and rod equation, and it becomes more prominent in other symbology, eventually becoming combined with the serpent. The origin of Kungfu (which is not only martial, but therapeutic and healing), refers to a folktale about a Buddhist monk (or, in some versions, a nun) who observed a crane fighting a snake and designed exercises to emulate their motions. In Sumerian and Babylonian iconography, the gods are often represented by winged disks and figures who are half human and half snake. Egyptian creation myths refer to a serpent and a primordial egg, which contained a bird of light. The Pharaohs of unified Egypt wore the trademark double crown of Horus and Set, represented by the vulture and the cobra. The serpent coiled on the foreheads of the Pharaohs represented divine fire, which originated at the base of the spine and ascended it just as the serpent had crawled up the Tree of Life. In Sanskrit, the coiled serpent is used to represent Kundalini, the energy that rises from the sacrum -- the bone at the base of the spine -- and results in enlightenment when it properly reaches the crown of the head through the practice of Kundalini yoga, which channels the energy along the six chakras, or energy centers, that correspond to the number of intersections of the serpent on the caduceus. Literally, Kundalini means "The Serpent Power."

Among Egyptian hieroglyphs, one finds a prominent winged serpent, which some say is a precursor of the most famous of winged serpents, the Mesoamerican feathered serpent, Quetzalcoatl, known also as Kulkulcan. Like the Egyptian Pharaoh, Akhanaten, Quetzalcoatl declared that there was only one god, and he did away with earlier forms of sacrifice; he was a healer and a scientist, and he could take on human form. (One of history's great ironies is how the Conquistadors took advantage of the story of Quetzalcoatl's return to destroy a civilization.)

From a feathered serpent, it is easy to make the next association to a serpent that flies, namely the figure of the dragon (the Greek drakon, which means "serpent"). Since it is a topic for its own future column, I will provide just a few examples here: In the lore of the British Isles, the most prominent dragon is, of course, the mythic king Arthur Pendragon. In Chinese cosmology, there are four Ao, or Dragon Kings (Qin, Kuang, Jun and Xun), each with his own elemental domain. In Korean legend, virtuous serpents eventually become dragons when rising into heaven, ascending a rainbow. The rainbow itself is a profound symbol, though here we can consider its quality of being like the colored ribbons associated with the maypole dance or the colored ribbons on the original caduceus (which also find expression in the red, white, and blue lines on the traditional barber's pole). The rainbow is also associated with flight and presents a winglike quality when it is bisected. In the tradition of Voodoo, one finds prominent connections between rainbow and serpent; among the Australian Aborigines, the rainbow serpent (with a host of different names, depending on language and region), is the most important figure in the Dreamtime. According to some variants of the Dreamtime myths, it is the primary creator of geological features that linger in the mundane world.

When the symbol of the caduceus is stylized and simplified, it creates another set of linked associations. For decades, anthropologists have tried to decipher the meaning of the symbol found among the ruins of Minoan Crete (one of the primary sources of Greek civilization). This symbol, called the labrys, is often called a double-headed axe because it resembles one. Feminists have reinterpreted it, given the Minoan culture, to represent the wings of a butterfly spread at the top of a rod (which might represent a caterpillar); it is read now as a symbol of transformation and transcendence, which makes it parallel to the caduceus; but scholars have not yet realized that it is, in fact, a simplified caduceus. Less sophisticated renditions of the labrys scratched onto stones and walls look like a sideways hourglass on top of a line. Likewise, in a more modern context, we tend to take the familiar pharmacists's logo to be an overlapping R and X, when, in fact, it is a skewed rendition of the Greek letters Chi (X) and Ro (P), which are actually a representation of Christ (Chi and Ro being the first two letters in his name). The pharmacist's ChiRo is an invocation of Christ's healing power, just as the ChiRo in Chiropracty (in case you've wondered) is a reference to Christ. The Chi and Ro used in Christian iconography look remarkably similar to the simplified labrys, though the connection may seem forced until one examines the symbology of Christ on the cross.

When the serpent and the bird are forcefully separated, they tend to take on opposite and antagonistic meanings. A good example of this phenomenon is what happens in Genesis, when the serpent is demonized as Satan and the tree of life is taboo. This contrasts with the story of the flood in which the white bird (the dove) bringing back the olive branch is associated with salvation as it finds the place for Noah to land (and note the use of the rainbow symbol as a promise from God never again to flood the earth). In the New Testament, the dove represents the Holy Spirit who, in Catholic symbology, is part of the Trinity. Since I've already pointed out how Christ has been equated with the serpent in my earlier column, suffice it to say that if God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same according to the doctrine of the Trinity, then the Catholic crucifix is implicitly a caduceus as well: the cross is the staff, and Christ is simultaneously serpent and bird. And the knob at the top of the caduceus? On the crucifix, that is implied by the presence of God, though it is ironically inhibited by the crown of thorns.


full article... http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/forcaduc.html

clearly this symbol survives today and represents some of the most powerful entities on the planet who are all somehow tied into each other with the common agenda of controlling mankind, wether physically, spiritually, or mentally... not a co-incidence, because there are none.

[uki]

some quotes about the NWO...
Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

Woodrow Wilson,The New Freedom (1913)

The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."

A letter written by FDR to Colonel House, November 21st, l933



"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes."

Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, 1952



"Fifty men have run America, and that's a high figure."

Joseph Kennedy, father of JFK, in the July 26th, l936 issue of The New York Times.



"Today the path of total dictatorship in the United States can be laid by strictly legal means, unseen and unheard by the Congress, the President, or the people. Outwardly we have a Constitutional government. We have operating within our government and political system, another body representing another form of government - a bureaucratic elite."

Senator William Jenner, 1954



"The case for government by elites is irrefutable"

Senator William Fulbright, Former chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, stated at a 1963 symposium entitled: The Elite and the Electorate - Is Government by the People Possible?



"The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power political, monetary, intellectual and ecclesiastical. What the Trilateral Commission intends is to create a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nationstates involved. As managers and creators of the system ,they will rule the future."

U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in his l964 book: With No Apologies.



"The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements, arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the worlds' central banks which were themselves private corporations. The growth of financial capitalism made possible a centralization of world economic control and use of this power for the direct benefit of financiers and the indirect injury of all other economic groups."

Tragedy and Hope: A History of The World in Our Time (Macmillan Company, 1966,) Professor Carroll Quigley of Georgetown University, highly esteemed by his former student, William Jefferson Blythe Clinton.



"The Council on Foreign Relations is "the establishment." Not only does it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at the highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it also announces and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from below, to justify the high level decisions for converting the U.S. from a sovereign Constitutional Republic into a servile member state of a one-world dictatorship."

Former Congressman John Rarick 1971



"The directors of the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) make up a sort of Presidium for that part of the Establishment that guides our destiny as a nation."

The Christian Science Monitor, September 1, l961



"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down...but in the end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault."

CFR member Richard Gardner, writing in the April l974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.



"The planning of UN can be traced to the 'secret steering committee' established by Secretary [of State Cordell] Hull in January 1943. All of the members of this secret committee, with the exception of Hull, a Tennessee politician, were members of the Council on Foreign Relations. They saw Hull regularly to plan, select, and guide the labors of the [State] Department's Advisory Committee. It was, in effect, the coordinating agency for all the State Department's postwar planning."

Professors Laurence H. Shoup and William Minter, writing in their study of the CFR, "Imperial Brain Trust: The CFR and United States Foreign Policy." (Monthly Review Press, 1977).





"From the days of Sparticus, Wieskhopf, Karl Marx, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemberg, and Emma Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Winston Churchill, stated to the London Press, in l922.



"We are at present working discreetly with all our might to wrest this mysterious force called sovereignty out of the clutches of the local nation states of the world."

Professor Arnold Toynbee, in a June l931 speech before the Institute for the Study of International Affairs in Copenhagen.



"The government of the Western nations, whether monarchical or republican, had passed into the invisible hands of a plutocracy, international in power and grasp. It was, I venture to suggest, this semioccult power which....pushed the mass of the American people into the cauldron of World War I."

British military historian MajorGeneral J.F.C. Fuller, l941



"For a long time I felt that FDR had developed many thoughts and ideas that were his own to benefit this country, the United States. But, he didn't. Most of his thoughts, his political ammunition, as it were, were carefully manufactured for him in advanced by the Council on Foreign Relations-One World Money group. Brilliantly, with great gusto, like a fine piece of artillery, he exploded that prepared "ammunition" in the middle of an unsuspecting target, the American people, and thus paid off and returned his internationalist political support.

"The UN is but a long-range, international banking apparatus clearly set up for financial and economic profit by a small group of powerful One-World revolutionaries, hungry for profit and power.

"The depression was the calculated 'shearing' of the public by the World Money powers, triggered by the planned sudden shortage of supply of call money in the New York money market....The One World Government leaders and their ever close bankers have now acquired full control of the money and credit machinery of the U.S. via the creation of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank."

Curtis Dall, FDR's son-in-law as quoted in his book, My Exploited Father-in-Law



"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."

A letter written by FDR to Colonel House, November 21st, l933



full list of quotes... http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/quotes/index.htm

[uki]

now who in americas history have been members of the skull and bones society at yale university and are they related in any way?


Bushes, Kerry are members
Both presidents George W. Bush and his father, George H. W. Bush, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry and many other men in powerful government and industry positions are members of the society, which is not affiliated with the university.

After years of famously fighting the U.S. and Mexican armies, Geronimo and 35 warriors surrendered to Gen. Nelson A. Miles near the Arizona-New Mexico border in 1886. Geronimo was eventually sent to Fort Sill and died at the Army outpost of pneumonia in 1909.

According to lore, members of Skull and Bones — including former President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush — dug up his grave when a group of Army volunteers from Yale was stationed at the fort during World War I, taking his skull and some of his bones.



Their lawsuit also names President Barack Obama, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Army Secretary Pete Geren as defendants.


geronimo's kin sue skull and bones... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29265600/


BOSTON - This could make for one odd family reunion: Barack Obama is a distant cousin of actor Brad Pitt, and Hillary Rodham Clinton is related to Pitt's girlfriend, Angelina Jolie.

Researchers at the New England Historic Genealogical Society found some remarkable family connections for the three presidential candidates — Democratic rivals Obama and Clinton, and Republican John McCain.

Clinton, who is of French-Canadian descent on her mother's side, is also a distant cousin of singers Madonna, Celine Dion and Alanis Morissette. Obama, the son of a white woman from Kansas and a black man from Kenya, can call six U.S. presidents, including George W. Bush, his cousins. McCain is a sixth cousin of first lady Laura Bush.



Obama has a prolific presidential lineage that features Democrats and Republicans. His distant cousins include President George W. Bush and his father, George H.W. Bush, Gerald Ford, Lyndon Johnson, Harry S. Truman and James Madison. Other Obama cousins include Vice President **** Cheney, British Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill and Civil War General Robert E. Lee.



full article... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23797072/

kind of absurd that KFM is concerned so much about someone being offended by words, that someone elses name is inadvertly filtered as being offensive. :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

As for Engdahl:



With regards to Engdahl's (more topical) claim that the USA engineered the overthrow of the Shah of Iran I will comment with slightly less disdain.
Well thank god!

I knew that there was an actual brain lurking in your head somewhere.


First off this doesn't support your "masons are the nwo" hypothesis.

Yet he does mention in his book that the British intelligence is run in masonic style hierarchy. Furthermore, his research clarifies part of the puzzle.

As far as the New World Order is concerned then you must really be blind not to see that we are heading for it.


Cetainly doesn't support your now abandoned "David Icke is right" position.

It does in many ways. If you bother to read his book and lets say Icke's "and the truth shall set you free" then you will see a lot of correlation regarding the control of the Third World through war and destablization.

The problem here seems to be that you have not actually read a single book by any of the said people.



He represents the USA as a monolithic political entity that thrust always entirely in the same direction.

If you bother to read his book then you will see that he talks about the huge banking interests of the US and AND the UK. You will see how their governments work for the interest of these powerful organizations and so on.


It seems likely that George Ball would have likely not been opposed to the "islamic balkanization" model of governance in Iran in order to fight the cold war, so with regards to his argument about this man Engdahl may not be entirely off base. On the other hand Brzezinski seems to have favored supporting the Shah quite vocally. That being said the state department seemed to disagree with him. This returns to previous comments about the inherently chaotic nature of human interaction.

There is nothing chaotic about what happened in Iran. It was decided that the Shah of Iran would go and he did. The decision was made by the U.S. and British "interests". I would hazard a guess that any so called internal "debate" within the US government was for public consumption.

The CIA attitude to this event was the usual and ridiculous "whoops, we didn't know" or "we made a mistake". CIA and the MI6 planned and carried out the overthrow. The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) took an active part in fanning the flames of this "people's" revolution through their daily Iranian language broadcasts.

May I also remind you that after when the Anglo American interests got rid of their "friend" the Shah of Iran another one of their then "friends", Saddam Hussein, suddenly decided to invade the Iranian oil fields. This started a 10 year Iran-Iraq war in which approximately 1 million people perished.

The US and the British (and others) sold arms to both sides by the way, and made millions of dollars out of this war, while at the same time "encouraging" peace and end to hostilities, what a laugh.

So Iran that was a growing economy with a bright future ahead of it ended up in economic ruins and instability with 100 of thousands of its young lying dead in cemeteries. Its current regime is an ugly dictatorship that rules through terror. Yet another regime that was put into power by the "Democratic" Western industrial powers.

For other such examples, look at the other "hap hazzard" political "coincidences" in Chile, Brazil, Panama, Argentina, Iraq, Afghanistan,etc and etc.

Yes these are all random occurances and there is absolutely nothing to worry about!


Honestly Engdahl's writing is all over the place, meandering from slightly cynical but rather mainstream poli-sci straight through to anti-scientific paranoia.

Your opinion may be based on the fact that Engdahl's writings cover uncomfortable (for you) subject areas which you yourself are not fully informed about.

You should get his book and read it carefully. It is a very well written political eye opener and is very interesting. William Engdahl does not wear a tin hat but perhaps you should just to "protect" yourself from the reality of what the real world is all about.

Of course, if you think that you know everything there is to know about how the powerful elite of this world function then don't read it!

However, it would be nice for you not to accuse everyone who knows more about this subject area than you of wearing tin foil hats.

[Hardwork108]

Correct. Nothing is impossible provided it does not break the fundamental laws of the universe. However, many many things are improbable.

Yes, I pass judgment - it is my entitlement as a human being. We are practically required to pass judgment by dint of being human. Even he who chooses not to judge has done so for a reason they judge to be proper. Why is that better than another.

There are a billion different ways to answer why my way of believing is superior, or somebody else's is superior. It's not about being superior or better. It is about being correct. There is no value statement attached to that, any more than there is a value statement attached to 2+2=4 or 2+0=4. The first is correct, the second is wrong.

I am concerned with the facts at hand, and the evidence on the conspiracy side of the house does not pass muster. It is utter bull****.

When they bring forth a credible, convincing argument, rooted in actual evidence that isn't all circularly sourced, then their story has credence. To date, they have not. Which is why only ****tards are conspiracy theorists. No reasonable human being can possibly believe anything they say for the simple reason that its a stupid argument.

Have a look at the links that I provided. Take your head out of your "you know where" before you do so.

Thanks in advance!

[taai gihk yahn]

clearly this symbol survives today and represents some of the most powerful entities on the planet who are all somehow tied into each other with the common agenda of controlling mankind, wether physically, spiritually, or mentally... not a co-incidence, because there are none.
the symbol of the serpent climbing the staff is a basic archetype for the ascendancy of kundalini energy up the core / spine (or in the case of Taoist practice, the dragon ascending in the field); it is a primordial image borne out of shamanic practice; the commonality of this symbol stems from the unifying experience of spiritual cultivation throughout human history; use of this symbol persists because on a non-conscious level it reminds us of our basic nature;

all projections of the mind are temporary; truth resides in emptiness; the boundless cannot be encompassed by the transitory; fixation on phenomena distracts from awareness of things such as they are;

[Hardwork108]

some quotes about the NWO... full list of quotes... http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/quotes/index.htm

Quote:
Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

Woodrow Wilson,The New Freedom (1913)

The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."

A letter written by FDR to Colonel House, November 21st, l933



"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes."

Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, 1952



"Fifty men have run America, and that's a high figure."

Joseph Kennedy, father of JFK, in the July 26th, l936 issue of The New York Times.



"Today the path of total dictatorship in the United States can be laid by strictly legal means, unseen and unheard by the Congress, the President, or the people. Outwardly we have a Constitutional government. We have operating within our government and political system, another body representing another form of government - a bureaucratic elite."

Senator William Jenner, 1954



"The case for government by elites is irrefutable"

Senator William Fulbright, Former chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, stated at a 1963 symposium entitled: The Elite and the Electorate - Is Government by the People Possible?



"The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power political, monetary, intellectual and ecclesiastical. What the Trilateral Commission intends is to create a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nationstates involved. As managers and creators of the system ,they will rule the future."

U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in his l964 book: With No Apologies.



"The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements, arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the worlds' central banks which were themselves private corporations. The growth of financial capitalism made possible a centralization of world economic control and use of this power for the direct benefit of financiers and the indirect injury of all other economic groups."

Tragedy and Hope: A History of The World in Our Time (Macmillan Company, 1966,) Professor Carroll Quigley of Georgetown University, highly esteemed by his former student, William Jefferson Blythe Clinton.



"The Council on Foreign Relations is "the establishment." Not only does it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at the highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it also announces and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from below, to justify the high level decisions for converting the U.S. from a sovereign Constitutional Republic into a servile member state of a one-world dictatorship."

Former Congressman John Rarick 1971



"The directors of the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) make up a sort of Presidium for that part of the Establishment that guides our destiny as a nation."

The Christian Science Monitor, September 1, l961



"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down...but in the end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault."

CFR member Richard Gardner, writing in the April l974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.



"The planning of UN can be traced to the 'secret steering committee' established by Secretary [of State Cordell] Hull in January 1943. All of the members of this secret committee, with the exception of Hull, a Tennessee politician, were members of the Council on Foreign Relations. They saw Hull regularly to plan, select, and guide the labors of the [State] Department's Advisory Committee. It was, in effect, the coordinating agency for all the State Department's postwar planning."

Professors Laurence H. Shoup and William Minter, writing in their study of the CFR, "Imperial Brain Trust: The CFR and United States Foreign Policy." (Monthly Review Press, 1977).





"From the days of Sparticus, Wieskhopf, Karl Marx, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemberg, and Emma Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Winston Churchill, stated to the London Press, in l922.



"We are at present working discreetly with all our might to wrest this mysterious force called sovereignty out of the clutches of the local nation states of the world."

Professor Arnold Toynbee, in a June l931 speech before the Institute for the Study of International Affairs in Copenhagen.



"The government of the Western nations, whether monarchical or republican, had passed into the invisible hands of a plutocracy, international in power and grasp. It was, I venture to suggest, this semioccult power which....pushed the mass of the American people into the cauldron of World War I."

British military historian MajorGeneral J.F.C. Fuller, l941



"For a long time I felt that FDR had developed many thoughts and ideas that were his own to benefit this country, the United States. But, he didn't. Most of his thoughts, his political ammunition, as it were, were carefully manufactured for him in advanced by the Council on Foreign Relations-One World Money group. Brilliantly, with great gusto, like a fine piece of artillery, he exploded that prepared "ammunition" in the middle of an unsuspecting target, the American people, and thus paid off and returned his internationalist political support.

"The UN is but a long-range, international banking apparatus clearly set up for financial and economic profit by a small group of powerful One-World revolutionaries, hungry for profit and power.

"The depression was the calculated 'shearing' of the public by the World Money powers, triggered by the planned sudden shortage of supply of call money in the New York money market....The One World Government leaders and their ever close bankers have now acquired full control of the money and credit machinery of the U.S. via the creation of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank."

Curtis Dall, FDR's son-in-law as quoted in his book, My Exploited Father-in-Law



"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."

A letter written by FDR to Colonel House, November 21st, l933




full list of quotes... http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/quotes/index.htm


Great info Uki.

I think that we have scared away the ignorant majority....lol.

Or didn't anyone read the quotes provided by Uki?

What about the links I provided?

Silence of the lambs or is it the SHEEP?


Taai Gihk Yahn,

You seem to have good comprehension skills, what do you make of the evidence presented?

[Hardwork108]

all projections of the mind are temporary; truth resides in emptiness; the boundless cannot be encompassed by the transitory; fixation on phenomena distracts from awareness of things such as they are;

I know where you are coming from here, but that is dealing with the problem on one level but there is this physical level that has to be dealt with because wether we like it or not a bullet or a bomb can hurt us and so do infringments on our freedoms.

[SimonM]

actually it goes quite further back than that... here, go knock yourself out. ::):

sumerian... this symbol belonged to enki:

http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html

another interesting read on the caduceus... here's an excerpt:


full article... http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/forcaduc.html

clearly this symbol survives today and represents some of the most powerful entities on the planet who are all somehow tied into each other with the common agenda of controlling mankind, wether physically, spiritually, or mentally... not a co-incidence, because there are none.

Sources Uki?

I mean... I could put up a website suggesting that the sumerian religion was actually a front for a global conspiracy of wizards who created religion after they became so old they fogot being human and decided that they must be gods... It doesn't make it true.

[CLFLPstudent]

Sources Uki?

I mean... I could put up a website suggesting that the sumerian religion was actually a front for a global conspiracy of wizards who created religion after they became so old they fogot being human and decided that they must be gods... It doesn't make it true.

Say it's not so, Simon! It MUST be true - someone wrote it and it's on the innernet! You mean people could have actually made this stuff up?

Bad people!

-David

[SimonM]

Great info Uki.

I think that we have scared away the ignorant majority....lol.

Or didn't anyone read the quotes provided by Uki?

What about the links I provided?

Silence of the lambs or is it the SHEEP?


Taai Gihk Yahn,

You seem to have good comprehension skills, what do you make of the evidence presented?


Actually I was on vacation and don't generally post on KFM when I'm not at work.

Uki: Thank you for the birthday greetings.

That said the above list of quotes is a grab bag of accusations against a host of perceived enemies, real and otherwise.

The main target is the Council on Foreign Relations, an organization that counts Angelina Jolie among it's current members.

You heard it here first: Brangelina is a shapechanging lizard alien.

We can include the Trilateral Comission with the CFR when assessing references as these two organizations have both been led by the same man. Apparently Uki's source of the day believes this man to be the leading edge of the illuminati conspiracy in the USA:

David Rockefeller - another shapchanging lizardoid?

All joking aside the CFR is primarily headed by David Rockefeller and it is this clan of wealthy and influential americans who are the locus of this influential organization. Certainly it is easy to understand how the credulous could mistake the CFR for an illuminatic organization dedicated to world domination. The Rockefellers are famously private and famously wealthy people whose influence in politics remains low-key and behind-the-scenes but pervasive.

The paranoid conclusion is that they must be up to something clandestine. This is not something for which there is any proof. And, my good sir, it is for FACT, not opinion, that I quest.

David Rockefeller has no overt links to the freemasons.

Nor does any other member of the Rockefeller family.

Nor does any of the current leadership of the trilateral comission.

The following US presidents have been freemasons:

James Buchanan - advocated reduced tariffs - democrat.

Gerald Ford - By own words prior to WWII was an isolationist, post WWII was an internationalist - republican.

James Garfield - executed soon after taking office, little information on trade or diplomatic policy - republican.

Warren G. Harding - advocated increased tariffs - republican

Andrew Jackson Opposed second bank of USA on grounds that it would open USA to control by foreign interests, expressed willingness to utilize military force to enforce tarriffs - democrat

Andrew Johnson - First President to be Impeached, presided over significant expansion of the boundaries of the USA - National Union Party (Also represented Democrats)

William McKinley - Advocated US Financial Hegemony, Fiscal and foreign policy very clearly geared towards this - Republican

James Monroe - Non-Interventionist - Democratic-Republican

James Polk - Advocated reduction of tarriffs, highly expansionist - Jacksonian Democrat

FDR - At times both interventionist (WWII) and isolationist (depression) - Democrat

Theodore Roosevelt - Very strong proponent of US sovereignty and US exceptionalism, opposed to business monopolies and "big business" - Republican

William Taft - Proponent of reduced tarriffs, direct rival of Roosevelt - Republican

Harry Truman - Initiated purge of suspected communists from federal service, insturmental in founding NATO - Democrat

George Washington - Non-Interventionist - Predates Jefferson's party, advocated non-partisan congress.

Although the lasting legacy of some of the above may have repurcussions today most have seen their enacted policies reversed at least once since their terms. This group includes no particular policy trend. Some were "internationalists", other were isolationists. Some were trade protectionists and others favored trade liberalization.

Some of the men on the list were blood relatives. Others were bitter rivals who ran against each other in elections on more than one occasion.

There are four things that can be said that connect these men:

1) They were all men.
2) They were all president of the USA for in between 1 and 4 terms.
3) They were all freemasons.
4) They are all presently deceased, Ford died in 2006.

In short there is no evidence of a freemasonic conspiracy to subvert the highest office of the US government. As time has gone by the freemasons have, in fact, had increasingly less influence in the governance of the USA rather than more. Affiliation with the freemasons has furthermore had no substantial impact on the policy decisions of the US presidents who had such an affiliation.

Furthermore only 14 out of 44 US presidents have had any membership in the freemasons at all!

Let's look at another conspiracy favorite for the NWO:

Bilderberg group:

Bill Clinton - Favored Trade Liberalization - Democrat
Well, there you go, one president was involved with the group, it must be the illuminati.

Others:

There were 7 presidents involved with the Council on Foreign Policy

No president of the USA has ever been a member of the Trilateral Commision although Jimmy Carter has been accused of giving this organization undue influence during his tenure.

George H.W. Bush is the only person to have been both US ambassador to the united nations and president of the USA.

ADDENDUM: I want to make it clear that I am not a fan of the Rockefeller clan whose actions in favour of trade liberalization have been harmful. I just don't believe they want to rule the world. Hell, they've pointedly AVOIDED ruling the USA despite having the sort of influence necessary to make it happen for generations.

[SimonM]

No witty rejoinder HW108?

[Hardwork108]

PART 1

YOU SHOULD REALLY WATCH THE LINKS THAT WERE PROVIDED (WITH ATTENTION)!


Actually I was on vacation and don't generally post on KFM when I'm not at work.

You mean you don't take your work seriously either? (Hey you did ask for a witty rejoiner):D


That said the above list of quotes is a grab bag of accusations against a host of perceived enemies, real and otherwise.

That is right, nothing to worry about!:rolleyes:


The main target is the Council on Foreign Relations, an organization that counts Angelina Jolie among it's current members.
There are thousands of people from different walks of life who are CIA assets, including actors and actresses. Does that make the "Company" a benign organization.


You heard it here first: Brangelina is a shapechanging lizard alien.
You heard it here first: The CIA consists of a bunch good people whose only job is to gather information. Any other info relating to them assassinations, coup detas, torture, manufactured wars or revolutions, are just accusations made by crazy conspiracy theorists wearing tin foil hats. Nothing to worry about.


We can include the Trilateral Comission with the CFR when assessing references as these two organizations have both been led by the same man. Apparently Uki's source of the day believes this man to be the leading edge of the illuminati conspiracy in the USA:

David Rockefeller - another shapchanging lizardoid?

Here are a few quotes from your friend David Rockefeller that you should focus on:

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."[ My emphasis]
- David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.


"For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
- David Rockefeller's Memoirs (Random House, New York, 2002)

Here are a few more relevant quotes:

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe that there would be a revolution before morning. And that revolution would be based around the Federal Reserve."
- Henry Ford

"The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power political, monetary, intellectual and ecclesiastical. What the Trilateral Commission intends is to create a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nationstates involved. As managers and creators of the system ,they will rule the future."
- U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in his l964 book: With No Apologies

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
- Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets


All joking aside

It is about time you stopped joking as we are talking about a serious subject matter here.

Leave the jokes to me as I am better at them then you!:D


the CFR is primarily headed by David Rockefeller and it is this clan of wealthy and influential americans who are the locus of this influential organization. Certainly it is easy to understand how the credulous could mistake the CFR for an illuminatic organization dedicated to world domination.

Yes, specially with the quotes that I have been provided in this thread and believe me, there is more where they came from.



The Rockefellers are famously private and famously wealthy people whose influence in politics remains low-key and behind-the-scenes but pervasive.

So nothing to worry about as this is a "Democracy" and behind the scenes political influence by the wealthy and/or secret organizations with their own sometimes secret agendas is part and parcel of this reality.


The paranoid conclusion is that they must be up to something clandestine.

Yes as the conclusion has nothing to do with what the man (David Rockefeller) and others in the know say.


This is not something for which there is any proof.
The proof is all around you.

Did you watch the links that I provided? Go on and watch them. Read the quotes provided with an open mind and not "if there was anything going on I, Simon, the intelligent, would surely have known about it", mind.



And, my good sir,

He called me "sir".:eek:



it is for FACT, not opinion, that I quest.

The facts of a corrupt world system based in the Western Industrial countries, ruthlessly exploiting the Third World as well as its own population and pushing for a centralized world government with the Free Masonic symbolism thrown in, are all around you!


David Rockefeller has no overt links to the freemasons.
Nor does any other member of the Rockefeller family.


How do you know that?

Many masons do not advertise the fact that they are masons. It is supposed to be a secret organization, or didn't you know? Why would as you put it a "famously private" family provide you with any info that would link them to the freemasons?


Nor does any of the current leadership of the trilateral comission.

Again, how do you know that? Because they don't say so themselves?

Even if you don't see a masonic link, can't you see the conspiration, the corruption the push for a centralized control of the world? Forget the masons for one moment and just try and see the stuft that is easier to see.

[Hardwork108]

PART 2


The following US presidents have been freemasons:

James Buchanan - advocated reduced tariffs - democrat.

Gerald Ford - By own words prior to WWII was an isolationist, post WWII was an internationalist - republican.

James Garfield - executed soon after taking office, little information on trade or diplomatic policy - republican.

Warren G. Harding - advocated increased tariffs - republican

Andrew Jackson Opposed second bank of USA on grounds that it would open USA to control by foreign interests, expressed willingness to utilize military force to enforce tarriffs - democrat

Andrew Johnson - First President to be Impeached, presided over significant expansion of the boundaries of the USA - National Union Party (Also represented Democrats)

William McKinley - Advocated US Financial Hegemony, Fiscal and foreign policy very clearly geared towards this - Republican

James Monroe - Non-Interventionist - Democratic-Republican

James Polk - Advocated reduction of tarriffs, highly expansionist - Jacksonian Democrat

FDR - At times both interventionist (WWII) and isolationist (depression) - Democrat

Theodore Roosevelt - Very strong proponent of US sovereignty and US exceptionalism, opposed to business monopolies and "big business" - Republican

William Taft - Proponent of reduced tarriffs, direct rival of Roosevelt - Republican

Harry Truman - Initiated purge of suspected communists from federal service, insturmental in founding NATO - Democrat

George Washington - Non-Interventionist - Predates Jefferson's party, advocated non-partisan congress.

From what I have read, most of the founding fathers were Masons and so were a lot of the British generals/leadership who lost the war of independence. That might explain the mainly friendly relationship with the Brits up until today and may even question the legitimacy of the "independence" and the "war".


Although the lasting legacy of some of the above may have repurcussions today most have seen their enacted policies reversed at least once since their terms. This group includes no particular policy trend. Some were "internationalists", other were isolationists. Some were trade protectionists and others favored trade liberalization.

Look at the GENERAL trend specially during the last century and onwards and look up the names (people and organizations) connected to that trend!


Some of the men on the list were blood relatives. Others were bitter rivals who ran against each other in elections on more than one occasion.

No one said that they were not human. No one said that the agenda has been running smoothly either, but the general trend has been centralization of power.





There are four things that can be said that connect these men:

1) They were all men.
2) They were all president of the USA for in between 1 and 4 terms.
3) They were all freemasons.
4) They are all presently deceased, Ford died in 2006.

Here is a couple of more.

1) They were not democratically elected.

2) They were CEOs of the company which is called the United States of America and their responsibility is to the shareholders and not the employees (the population).

3) They were corrupt to their core. Especially the ones who kept silent at the role of the unconstitutional Federal Reserve (20th century) in what amounts to enslavement/exploitation of the US population.



In short there is no evidence of a freemasonic conspiracy to subvert the highest office of the US government. As time has gone by the freemasons have, in fact, had increasingly less influence in the governance of the USA rather than more. Affiliation with the freemasons has furthermore had no substantial impact on the policy decisions of the US presidents who had such an affiliation.

You are making this up as you go, aren't you?

Do you think that a president who is a mason or is influenced by them will always come out and say so? LOL.

Don't you think that there were other US presidents that were/are masons but do not or have not put that fact out for the public. Even if there weren't other US presidents who were masons then how do you know if their advisers, heads of Intelligence, State Department, lobbyists, etc. weren't?


Furthermore only 14 out of 44 US presidents have had any membership in the freemasons at all!

How do you know that this is a fact?

Even if it was a fact how do you know that their advisors/heads of intelligence etc. weren't masons?


Let's look at another conspiracy favorite for the NWO:

Bilderberg group:

Bill Clinton - Favored Trade Liberalization - Democrat
Well, there you go, one president was involved with the group, it must be the illuminati.

The fact is that the Bilderberg group functions secretly and many journalists don't know about them. By the way, add the Ex-British Prime Minister to Clinton.

You do remember Blair don't you? He was the one who could not move his lips without lying. Yes Iraq's big bad "Weapons of Mass Destruction". Of course after fraudulently draggind Britain into that war (masacar) where 100s of thousands of innocent Iraquis (as well as British/US personnel) perished and after he stepped down from being a prime minister, he was made a PEACE NEGOTIATOR for the Middle East. Yes, no conspiracy there folks...lol.

Others:


There were 7 presidents involved with the Council on Foreign Policy

What about their advisors and so on?


No president of the USA has ever been a member of the Trilateral Commision although Jimmy Carter has been accused of giving this organization undue influence during his tenure.

What about their advisors or their "team"?


George H.W. Bush is the only person to have been both US ambassador to the united nations and president of the USA.
And on top of that, he is such a nice man.:rolleyes:


ADDENDUM: I want to make it clear that I am not a fan of the Rockefeller clan whose actions in favour of trade liberalization have been harmful. I just don't believe they want to rule the world. Hell, they've pointedly AVOIDED ruling the USA despite having the sort of influence necessary to make it happen for generations.

That is because they have the intelligence to know that if they ruled OVERTLY then people would soon be unto them but their continued COVERTrule has gone unchallenged even by people like you who should know better!

HW108

PS. Try to forget the masons for now and just look around you and check out the links provided and feel free to research further. Don't just go into denial mode because you deem yourself too smart to have fallen for the con-job that is going on all around you.

[SimonM]

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."[ My emphasis]
- David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.


And where, perchance, did you come across this quote? Have you any way to confirm it's veracity?

The rest of your quotes are largely inconsquential. As for your speculation of "secret" freemason presidents I have only one thing to say: PROVE IT

[David Jamieson]

And where, perchance, did you come across this quote? Have you any way to confirm it's veracity?

The rest of your quotes are largely inconsquential. As for your speculation of "secret" freemason presidents I have only one thing to say: PROVE IT

Simon, there are people out there who still quote from "the protocols of the elders of zion" which was a book used by the nazis to justify their actions. It is of course a fraudulent publication that was made to support fascist agendas.

outright bold faced lies and untruths are regularly accepted as a diet of facts by lazy minds.

lazy minds love conspiracy theories because the lazy mind doesn't have to do any research, doesn't have to study, doesn't have to actually substantiate anything!

all you have to do is be able to read and voila! all your questions are answered and now you are free to regurgitate them at will towards anyone who like yourself is lazy minded and wants instant answers to things that seem too complex for them to sort out on their own.

It's a mind trap and there are a great deal of people who fall into it. This speaks to human nature of course.

I'm not saying there aren't conspiracies at play in the world, of course there are, that is how we function. We compete and we conspire against each other, we make war, we cheat each other nation to nation and so on. But what conspiracy theory people fail to bump hip to is that they themselves are creating their world of fear and hatred for themselves to live in and they go about their lives with that fear and hatred because they believe it because they are LAZY in the mind.

with any mental exercise that has correct intent and is purposeful, then all that nonsense will fall away and the eyes both mind and actual will open!

for real!

[SimonM]

Bah, I'm not giving HW108 the out on that.

Instead I want proof!

Secret masons? Prove it.

As for the "mason symbolism" thing:

The REALLY funny thing is that the symbol in question, the "all seeing eye" motif, was adopted by the USA about a decade BEFORE any masons started using it.

Of course conspiracy theorists will use that for a catch 22 of some sort I'm sure.

As for the whole "mason" in the great seal thing...

The back of the great seal of the USA reads "Annuit Caeptis Novus Ordo Seculorum" If you draw a star of david across the seal in the right way it touches the letters m,a,s,o, and n (with one point touching nothing). Of course if you draw a cross across it you get a,s,o if you draw a pentagram you get a,s,v and r (or n,o,i,n, and m if inverted) if you draw a square you get n,o,u,i, etc. the number of possible permutations you an get with various random shapes is in the thousands!

It's meaningless!

And, NO! I'm not going to watch your putrescent youtube videos. I've SEEN THEM BEFORE AND THEY ARE BULLPLOP! The host lost me when he claimed that any use of the colour blue was masonic!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know a few Masons, a couple that are very high up.
Nice guys.

[SimonM]

Turns out the guy I was named after (Simon Bolivar) was a mason.

I have no problem with the group. I also have no special love for them.

I am just very strongly of the opinion that the left wing should found our arguments in logic and reason and not in the ravings of a bunch of frothing nuts like icke.

And so I'm a dedicated debunker.

What frustrates me with HW108's discourse is that he has interwoven serious issues (the impact of the IMF and the world bank on third world nations for example) with the frothing nut 'freemasons founded the UN to rule the world by proxy for the elders of zion' nonsense.

[Hardwork108]

And where, perchance, did you come across this quote? Have you any way to confirm it's veracity?

That quote is all over the place on the internet. However, I believe that it was attributed to David Rockefeller during a Bilderberg meeting rather than a CFR one shown in my version of the quote.

Why did I use this quote? Because it fits in with the following (traceable) quote from your friend David Rockefeller:

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum
have seized upon well-publicized incidents…to attack the Rockefeller family for the
inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic
institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best
interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as "internationalists"
and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global
political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand
guilty, and I am proud of it."

In case you don't notice, he is talking about the centralized control of the world here, i.e. The New World Order.



The rest of your quotes are largely inconsquential.

That is your, dare I say, frightened opinion and nothing else!



As for your speculation of "secret" freemason presidents I have only one thing to say: PROVE IT

My "speculation" is in regards to their influence on world politics in general rather than their identities as specific presidents who in the end of the they are tools for the elite in the background. That is why I also "speculate" about their advisers and not just about their membership of masonery but also other secret and semi-secret organizations such as the CFR, TC, Bilderberg Group and so on. It is a god d@mn spiders web!

Again study and look for the symbolism in major company logos as well as government logos.

[Hardwork108]

I know a few Masons, a couple that are very high up.
Nice guys.

Why don't you go and hit your punch bag or break a few slabs and impress yourself.

That is all this discussion needed, a (kung fu wise) confused knucklehead giving his 2 cents worth...lol.

[Hardwork108]

Turns out the guy I was named after (Simon Bolivar) was a mason.

And I believe he tried to UNIFY South America, i.e. make it centrally governed.


I have no problem with the group. I also have no special love for them.

There is hope for you yet.


I am just very strongly of the opinion that the left wing should found our arguments in logic and reason and not in the ravings of a bunch of frothing nuts like icke.

Actually, Icke believes that the "left":rolleyes: wing is controlled by the same people who control the "right":rolleyes: wing.

He believes that these "wings": are for the benefit of dividing the masses.


And so I'm a dedicated debunker.
There is nothing wrong with being skeptical as long as it is not BLIND skepticism which would put you in the same group as the Conspiracy Nuts who you dislike and ridicule so much.

I provided enough material for you so as to provide you with food for thought but you just "sweep" them away as mad ravings. That proves to me that you don't investigate anything that does not fit within your own established belief system, meaning that in reality you belong to the other extreme "wing" of the tin foil crowd!



What frustrates me with HW108's discourse is that he has interwoven serious issues (the impact of the IMF and the world bank on third world nations for example) with the frothing nut 'freemasons founded the UN to rule the world by proxy for the elders of zion' nonsense.

What you are doing is putting words in my mouth again. I have not made comments on the "Elders of Zion nonesense".

What "frustrates" me about your discourse is that you have failed to see that the conspiracy involves different areas of world politics that ARE intervowen!

[Hardwork108]

Bah, I'm not giving HW108 the out on that.
Well HW108 is not taking the out either!


Instead I want proof!
Here is more proof regarding David Rockefellor:

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/third_section/The_Proud_Internationalist_2006.pdf



Secret masons? Prove it.

Read my previous post. Learn their symbols and look around you!


As for the "mason symbolism" thing:

The REALLY funny thing is that the symbol in question, the "all seeing eye" motif, was adopted by the USA about a decade BEFORE any masons started using it.

Please elaborate.

Here is something that I have come across:

In 1934, Secretary of Agriculture, soon-to-be Vice-President (1940-44) and 32nd degree freemason Henry Wallace submitted a proposal to the president to mint a coin depicting the seal's obverse and reverse. President Franklin D Roosevelt, also a 32nd degree freemason, liked the idea but opted to instead place it on the dollar bill. According to Henry Wallace, in a letter dated February 6, 1951, “the Latin phrase Novus Ordo Seclorum impressed me as meaning the 'New Deal' of the Ages.”

“Roosevelt as he looked at the colored reproduction of the Seal was first struck with the representation of the 'All-Seeing Eye,' a Masonic representation of Great Architect the Universe. Next he was impressed with the idea that the foundation for the new order of the ages had been laid in 1776 (May 1st, 1776, founding of the Illuminati) but would be completed only under the eye of the Great Architect. Roosevelt like myself was a 32nd degree Mason. He suggested that the Seal be put on the dollar bill rather that a coin.”


The fact seems to be that the pyramid and the all seeing eye are a masonic symbol and they are all over the place.



Of course conspiracy theorists will use that for a catch 22 of some sort I'm sure.
And you will never believe anything they say because you have made up your mind already.:rolleyes:


As for the whole "mason" in the great seal thing...

The back of the great seal of the USA reads "Annuit Caeptis Novus Ordo Seculorum" If you draw a star of david across the seal in the right way it touches the letters m,a,s,o, and n (with one point touching nothing). Of course if you draw a cross across it you get a,s,o if you draw a pentagram you get a,s,v and r (or n,o,i,n, and m if inverted) if you draw a square you get n,o,u,i, etc. the number of possible permutations you an get with various random shapes is in the thousands!

It's meaningless!

There is a lot more symbolism around for you to chew on.


And, NO! I'm not going to watch your putrescent youtube videos. I've SEEN THEM BEFORE AND THEY ARE BULLPLOP! The host lost me when he claimed that any use of the colour blue was masonic!

You ask for proof and when provided you refuse to watch. Watch the links I provided on the interview with John Perkins and the Clinton Chronicles.

If you are NOT going to bother to look at the evidence and proof regarding the many levels of conspiracy that is all around us then DON'T ASK FOR IT, you silly man!

[uki]

hardwork is an appropriate name for you good sir.

[Hardwork108]

Here is one more John Perkins link for you. This time he is being interviewed by a well known journalist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK6B4Uogtso

[Hardwork108]

hardwork is an appropriate name for you good sir.

Thanks Uki. It would be an appropriate name for you as well.:)

[CLFLPstudent]

Actually, Icke believes that the "left":rolleyes: wing is controlled by the same people who control the "right":rolleyes: wing.

He believes that these "wings": are for the benefit of dividing the masses.


Well, Icke also believes that the British Royal Family are Reptillian aliens, he believes that GHW Bush and Bill Clinton have gone on "Most Dangerous Game" hunts killing people, and that they can shapeshift from their reptillian forms to human form.

When someone wholeheartedly believes that crap, anything else that comes out of their mouths has a hard time getting thought of as valid. I think in law they call it 'establishing a persons character' or something along that line.....

I think it's funny when these sort of people use popular movies to help along with their beliefs too - after "The Matrix" came out, Icke was first in line to write a book about the "Children of the Matrix" - I haven't read it but it seems as though it 'steal's ideas from the movies and he claims that it is real :

The Publisher claims that we are born into a world controlled by unseen forces that have plagued and manipulated humanity for thousands of years. No, this is no script from a Hollywood movie. It is claimed to be happening to you NOW. You may look around and think that what you see is “real”. But in truth you are living in an illusion – an illusion designed to keep you in a mental, emotional, spiritual prison cell.
David Icke exposes these forces and their methods of human control and he claims to reveal a fantastic web of global manipulation, orchestrated by forces byond this physical realm. He exposes the hidden bloodlines, through which other-dimensional entities live and operate unseen among us; and he claims to show how the bloodlines of the royal, political, and economic rulers of today are the same as those who ruled as the kings and queens of ancient times.


This seems to be a favorite tactic - either claiming movies are about real events ( Close Encounters of the Third Kind) or they are released to 'prepare' us for what is to come ....

-David

[Lokhopkuen]

The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings.

We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions.

Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment.

That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.

But I do ask every publisher, every editor, and every newsman in the nation to reexamine his own standards, and to recognize the nature of our country’s peril. In time of war, the government and the press have customarily joined in an effort based largely on self-discipline, to prevent unauthorized disclosures to the enemy. In time of "clear and present danger," the courts have held that even the privileged rights of the First Amendment must yield to the public’s need for national security.

Today no war has been declared–and however fierce the struggle may be, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion. Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe. The survival of our friends is in danger. And yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired.

If the press is awaiting a declaration of war before it imposes the self-discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say that no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent.

It requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions–by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper.

[Lokhopkuen]

For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence–on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day.

It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.

Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match.

Nevertheless, every democracy recognizes the necessary restraints of national security–and the question remains whether those restraints need to be more strictly observed if we are to oppose this kind of attack as well as outright invasion.

For the facts of the matter are that this nation’s foes have openly boasted of acquiring through our newspapers information they would otherwise hire agents to acquire through theft, bribery or espionage; that details of this nation’s covert preparations to counter the enemy’s covert operations have been available to every newspaper reader, friend and foe alike; that the size, the strength, the location and the nature of our forces and weapons, and our plans and strategy for their use, have all been pinpointed in the press and other news media to a degree sufficient to satisfy any foreign power; and that, in at least in one case, the publication of details concerning a secret mechanism whereby satellites were followed required its alteration at the expense of considerable time and money.

The newspapers which printed these stories were loyal, patriotic, responsible and well-meaning. Had we been engaged in open warfare, they undoubtedly would not have published such items. But in the absence of open warfare, they recognized only the tests of journalism and not the tests of national security. And my question tonight is whether additional tests should not now be adopted.

The question is for you alone to answer. No public official should answer it for you. No governmental plan should impose its restraints against your will. But I would be failing in my duty to the nation, in considering all of the responsibilities that we now bear and all of the means at hand to meet those responsibilities, if I did not commend this problem to your attention, and urge its thoughtful consideration.

On many earlier occasions, I have said–and your newspapers have constantly said–that these are times that appeal to every citizen’s sense of sacrifice and self-discipline. They call out to every citizen to weigh his rights and comforts against his obligations to the common good. I cannot now believe that those citizens who serve in the newspaper business consider themselves exempt from that appeal.

I have no intention of establishing a new Office of War Information to govern the flow of news. I am not suggesting any new forms of censorship or any new types of security classifications. I have no easy answer to the dilemma that I have posed, and would not seek to impose it if I had one. But I am asking the members of the newspaper profession and the industry in this country to reexamine their own responsibilities, to consider the degree and the nature of the present danger, and to heed the duty of self-restraint which that danger imposes upon us all.

Every newspaper now asks itself, with respect to every story: "Is it news?" All I suggest is that you add the question: "Is it in the interest of the national security?" And I hope that every group in America–unions and businessmen and public officials at every level– will ask the same question of their endeavors, and subject their actions to the same exacting tests.

And should the press of America consider and recommend the voluntary assumption of specific new steps or machinery, I can assure you that we will cooperate whole-heartedly with those recommendations.

Perhaps there will be no recommendations. Perhaps there is no answer to the dilemma faced by a free and open society in a cold and secret war. In times of peace, any discussion of this subject, and any action that results, are both painful and without precedent. But this is a time of peace and peril which knows no precedent in history.

It is the unprecedented nature of this challenge that also gives rise to your second obligation–an obligation which I share. And that is our obligation to inform and alert the American people–to make certain that they possess all the facts that they need, and understand them as well–the perils, the prospects, the purposes of our program and the choices that we face.

No President should fear public scrutiny of his program. For from that scrutiny comes understanding; and from that understanding comes support or opposition. And both are necessary. I am not asking your newspapers to support the Administration, but I am asking your help in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people. For I have complete confidence in the response and dedication of our citizens whenever they are fully informed.

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers–I welcome it. This Administration intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors; and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.

Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed–and no republic can survive. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy. And that is why our press was protected by the First Amendment– the only business in America specifically protected by the Constitution- -not primarily to amuse and entertain, not to emphasize the trivial and the sentimental, not to simply "give the public what it wants"–but to inform, to arouse, to reflect, to state our dangers and our opportunities, to indicate our crises and our choices, to lead, mold, educate and sometimes even anger public opinion.

This means greater coverage and analysis of international news–for it is no longer far away and foreign but close at hand and local. It means greater attention to improved understanding of the news as well as improved transmission. And it means, finally, that government at all levels, must meet its obligation to provide you with the fullest possible information outside the narrowest limits of national security–and we intend to do it.

It was early in the Seventeenth Century that Francis Bacon remarked on three recent inventions already transforming the world: the compass, gunpowder and the printing press. Now the links between the nations first forged by the compass have made us all citizens of the world, the hopes and threats of one becoming the hopes and threats of us all. In that one world’s efforts to live together, the evolution of gunpowder to its ultimate limit has warned mankind of the terrible consequences of failure.

And so it is to the printing press–to the recorder of man’s deeds, the keeper of his conscience, the courier of his news–that we look for strength and assistance, confident that with your help man will be what he was born to be: free and independent.

[SimonM]

That quote is all over the place on the internet. However, I believe that it was attributed to David Rockefeller during a Bilderberg meeting rather than a CFR one shown in my version of the quote.


So, in other words, you have no way of verifying whether Rockefeller actually EVER SAID THIS. So, in other words, it's entirely inconsequential.



My "speculation" is in regards to their influence on world politics in general rather than their identities as specific presidents who in the end of the they are tools for the elite in the background. That is why I also "speculate" about their advisers and not just about their membership of masonery but also other secret and semi-secret organizations such as the CFR, TC, Bilderberg Group and so on. It is a god d@mn spiders web!


Your speculation is that the freemasons are involved in anything at all... because you have no proof that they are.

For whatever reason you are afraid of a bunch of guys with silly rings who get together to do goofy rituals and then drink beer. And so you have ascribed them status as secret overlords of the world. Sorry, not buying it.



Again study and look for the symbolism in major company logos as well as government logos.

I can infer almost any connection through that method. It's "the daColbert Code" in action.


Why don't you go and hit your punch bag or break a few slabs and impress yourself.

That is all this discussion needed, a (kung fu wise) confused knucklehead giving his 2 cents worth...lol.

There you go Sanjuro Ronin, we aren't worthy of an opinion on whether the freemasons are a secret cabal of reptoids secretly ruling the world because we like the UFC... or something.


And I believe he tried to UNIFY South America, i.e. make it centrally governed.


Actually he tried to overthrow the colonial administration of the region. But thanks for playing. I know that to the paranoid mind attempts at self-government within a region are indistinguishable from an attempt to institute global autocratic rule...



I provided enough material for you so as to provide you with food for thought but you just "sweep" them away as mad ravings. That proves to me that you don't investigate anything that does not fit within your own established belief system, meaning that in reality you belong to the other extreme "wing" of the tin foil crowd!

No, 99&#37; of what you have provided is low-grade speculative fiction. Entertaining, perhaps, but not food for thought.



What you are doing is putting words in my mouth again. I have not made comments on the "Elders of Zion nonesense".


And yet the conspiracy theories you subscribe to mostly include that brand of anti-semite nonsense.

Provide facts. I'm still waiting for them.


You ask for proof and when provided you refuse to watch. Watch the links I provided on the interview with John Perkins and the Clinton Chronicles.

If you are NOT going to bother to look at the evidence and proof regarding the many levels of conspiracy that is all around us then DON'T ASK FOR IT, you silly man!

The Clinton Chronicles don't constitute proof.

They have already been debunked extensively as nothing but idle speculation pumped by radical conservatives.

As for John Perkins there is no indication that his works have anything to do with the freemasons.

[Hardwork108]

Well, Icke also believes that the British Royal Family are Reptillian aliens,

Well it would help if they didn't act like so cold blooded (and they are)!:D


he believes that GHW Bush and Bill Clinton have gone on "Most Dangerous Game" hunts killing people,

I don't know wether they do or not, but as history has proven, they wouldn't think twice in having whole cities bombed and their populations murdered, if that served their masters (who are not the American population).

That is the fact that should concern you!


and that they can shapeshift from their reptillian forms to human form.

I don't know either way but they do "shape shift" their faces depending on who they try to impress, their masters or the ignorant masses.

That is the fact that should concern you!


When someone wholeheartedly believes that crap, anything else that comes out of their mouths has a hard time getting thought of as valid. I think in law they call it 'establishing a persons character' or something along that line.....

Why don't you use the same law to "establish" the murderous and psychopathic characters of some our leaders.


I think it's funny when these sort of people use popular movies to help along with their beliefs too - after "The Matrix" came out, Icke was first in line to write a book about the "Children of the Matrix" - I haven't read it

And that seems to be the problem with most of you lot. You don't actually read the stuff you character assassinate. Of course, even you do read them you do not judge with an open mind as you usually make up your mind before reading the material.



but it seems as though it 'steal's ideas from the movies and he claims that it is real :

Not really. He had the same ideas before the movie came out and you would have known that if you had read any of his work.

What he did do was draw parallels between the (popular) movie theme, which reflected his ideas, as to make it easier for people to understand.



This seems to be a favorite tactic - either claiming movies are about real events ( Close Encounters of the Third Kind) or they are released to 'prepare' us for what is to come ....


Icke never made any such claims about the matrix.

[CLFLPstudent]

Well it would help if they didn't act like so cold blooded (and they are)!:D

I don't know wether they do or not, but as history has proven, they wouldn't think twice in having whole cities bombed and their populations murdered, if that served their masters (who are not the American population).

That is the fact that should concern you!

I don't know either way but they do "shape shift" their faces depending on who they try to impress, their masters or the ignorant masses.

That is the fact that should concern you!

Why don't you use the same law to "establish" the murderous and psychopathic characters of some our leaders.

And that seems to be the problem with most of you lot. You don't actually read the stuff you character assassinate. Of course, even you do read them you do not judge with an open mind as you usually make up your mind before reading the material.

Not really. He had the same ideas before the movie came out and you would have known that if you had read any of his work.

What he did do was draw parallels between the (popular) movie theme, which reflected his ideas, as to make it easier for people to understand.

Icke never made any such claims about the matrix.

Well, first off I have read "The Biggest Secret". That is what I base my opinions on. After reading it, I have decided that any other book Icke has 'written', and I use that term loosely, is complete ****.

Character assassination? You don't think what Icke has done is not character assassination? I think (if I recall correctly) he even called Kris Kristofferson a child molester in TBS. He claimed not that British Royalty is 'cold blooded', but that are ( according to him) reptiles that can change their shape from human to lizards. He claimed that GHW Bush and Bill Clinton hunted people with rifles from helicopters. He is complete bonkers. Like I said before, I think he took too many soccer balls to his head when he was a pro soccer player.

To defend this lunatic really doesn't help your status here HW. I can understand your displeasure at the world and I can even sympathise that you and Uki want to change the world, heck it is a pretty ****ty place right now. But you cannot take Icke for his word, he is nuts.

-David

[Hardwork108]

So, in other words, you have no way of verifying whether Rockefeller actually EVER SAID THIS.

That does not mean that he did not say it. I did provide another quote that was on the same lines which can be varified. Why you have ignored it, is beyond me!



So, in other words, it's entirely inconsequential.

No it is not inconsequential!

That is because the other quote I provided also pointed to a New World Order and Rockefellor's support for it.


Your speculation is that the freemasons are involved in anything at all... because you have no proof that they are.
I have drawen my own conclusions based on what I have read and what I see everyday. You are welcome to draw your own regarding this secret society.

However, the fact remains that there is a conspiracy no matter who we identify as its instigators. That is what you should focus on and clarify first!


For whatever reason you are afraid of a bunch of guys with silly rings who get together to do goofy rituals and then drink beer.

And you believe that a SECRET society that counts and has counted among its members some of the most powerful politicians and bussinessmen in the world, has existed for hundreds of years solely for the purpose of its members having the priviledge of wearing "silly rings"; participating in "goofy" rituals and drinking beer. Now you are being really naive.



And so you have ascribed them status as secret overlords of the world. Sorry, not buying it.

I have concluded that their higher levels are involved in the conspiracy. You buying it is inconsequential as you do not even seem aware of a conspiracy in the first place, are you?


I can infer almost any connection through that method. It's "the daColbert Code" in action.

Does that mean that you will never see connections regarding anything and are incapable of "connecting the dots" regarding any subject area because you will percieve it to be "the daColvert Code" in action.

Or are you saying that you are capable of connecting the dots only if the subject matter falls within your belief system (which is the same thing..lol)?



There you go Sanjuro Ronin, we aren't worthy of an opinion on whether the freemasons are a secret cabal of reptoids secretly ruling the world because we like the UFC... or something.

I just took exception to the knucklehead description, "nice guys", which contributed nothing to the discussion, rather like most of his posts regarding actual kung fu themes.



Actually he tried to overthrow the colonial administration of the region.

And then to UNITE SOUTH AMERICA into one entity: Centralisation of Power!!!!!

The same thing that many organizations bearing masonic symbols are trying their best to do now!



But thanks for playing.

You are very welcome.




No, 99% of what you have provided is low-grade speculative fiction.

Here you are being deregatory and deceitful. The links provided had info from "the horses mouth", so to speak.

If I had said that someone who was part of a conspiracy to drown Latin America with debt and now he was telling it all, then you would ask me for proof. If I had failed to provide the proof, that is name and links, then you would have said that I have no facts and that I was speculating.

However, when I do provide links with actual people then you turn around and talk cr@p.

The primary requirement for any assessment of a so called "food for thought" include information and references, which I have provided.



entertaining, perhaps,

Hey, if I had wanted to entertain you then I would have provided links to some UFC meatheads punching each other in the head until the one with the lesser brain cells was left standing or perhaps a Youtube clip of Sanjruro defeating a slab with his "incredible" power.


but not food for thought.
The second requirement for any assessment of a so called "food for thought" is a brain!



And yet the conspiracy theories you subscribe to mostly include that brand of anti-semite nonsense.

Icke is not an anti semite as much as many people try to label him as such.


Provide facts. I'm still waiting for them.

The facts have been provided but you need to provide yourself with a suitable brain to decipher them.


The Clinton Chronicles don't constitute proof.

You did not watch that either did you?:rolleyes:


They have already been debunked extensively as nothing but idle speculation pumped by radical conservatives.
If you had watched the video then you would not have referred to it as "idle speculation".

That kind of "idle speculation" can get you sued, but to my knowledge no action was taken by the Clintons against the producers of that documentary. Nor were there any actions taken agains Icke when he made the same allegations in his books.


As for John Perkins there is no indication that his works have anything to do with the freemasons.

Yet they have everything to do with a world wide exploitation that is causing the deaths of hundreds and thousands of people through assassinations, wars and economic sabotage, but that is ok then for you? You are still looking for proof of masonic involvement...lol,lol,lol.

As I said before, try and see the conspiracy and corruption first, then you can look deeper at who is behind it! The important point is that this conspiracy exists, you can sidetrack the discussion all you want but that fact remains.

Masons (at their higher levels) are involved but the issue is the conspiracy as you are not going to identify anything profound if you fail to see it.

[SimonM]

Everybody knows that the wheel is a key symbol of buddhism. This document will now present PROOF that the world is ruled by a giant conspiracy of buddhist monks.

That's right, far from being the sweet and grandfatherly poster child of the sangha the Dalai Lama is really a Felinoid alien from planet Dharma 4734. The symbols are all around you.

Haven't you ever looked at the logo for Pepsi? It's a wheel!
It's the same thing with Apple Inc. And I have it on good authority that Steve Jobs is another shapechanging Felinoid who harpoon-hunts humans from his top-secret alien hydrofoil with the Dalai Lama.

If you look at the shape of Paris you see that the entire city is laid out as a wheel. So is the city of London!

Most ****ing of all, almost every car has FOUR WHEELS! The auto industry is the main edge of the wedge of the Buddhist Felinoid conspiracion!

[sanjuro_ronin]

There you go Sanjuro Ronin, we aren't worthy of an opinion on whether the freemasons are a secret cabal of reptoids secretly ruling the world because we like the UFC... or something.





Considering I probably knwo more PERSONALLy about Masons than these people that probably have never even met, one, that doen't bother me in the least, after all, my family is descendant of the Order Of Christ.
For those that don't know, the Oder of Christ were Portuguese templars, one of the oldest and most prestigious along with the Teutonic Knights.

[Hardwork108]

Everybody knows that the wheel is a key symbol of buddhism. This document will now present PROOF that the world is ruled by a giant conspiracy of buddhist monks.

That's right, far from being the sweet and grandfatherly poster child of the sangha the Dalai Lama is really a Felinoid alien from planet Dharma 4734. The symbols are all around you.

Haven't you ever looked at the logo for Pepsi? It's a wheel!
It's the same thing with Apple Inc. And I have it on good authority that Steve Jobs is another shapechanging Felinoid who harpoon-hunts humans from his top-secret alien hydrofoil with the Dalai Lama.

If you look at the shape of Paris you see that the entire city is laid out as a wheel. So is the city of London!

Most ****ing of all, almost every car has FOUR WHEELS! The auto industry is the main edge of the wedge of the Buddhist Felinoid conspiracion!

That is it, avoid the fundamental point of the discussion and ignore and demean all of the references provided.

You have made up your mind or at least someone has made up for you, a long time ago. So I suggest that you stay nice and warm in your comfort zone and only venture out when wrestling BJJ-ers.

[SimonM]

That does not mean that he did not say it. I did provide another quote that was on the same lines which can be varified. Why you have ignored it, is beyond me!


Because I've seen that other quote before, in it's proper context, and it's not really at all sinister.



No it is not inconsequential!

That is because the other quote I provided also pointed to a New World Order and Rockefellor's support for it.


In your mind perhaps.



I have drawen my own conclusions based on what I have read and what I see everyday. You are welcome to draw your own regarding this secret society.


Freemasonry remains just about the worst-kept secret in the world. Mainly because most freemasons realize that the cat's been out of the bag ever since Cosi Fan Tutti was published... and so they really don't try to hard to make their society very secret.



However, the fact remains that there is a conspiracy no matter who we identify as its instigators. That is what you should focus on and clarify first!


I wish it were as simple as that.
In fact the simplicity of "conspiracy" and the simplicity of the solution are what I think likely attracts the weak willed to conspiracy theory. After all, if the architects of the world's ills are a small "them" than it's not their fault. It's just "them". The truth is much messier.

Yes, the IMF and the World Bank have policies set in place to benefit a specific class of people (the major shareholders of multinational corporations) and work to forward an agenda on the global stage that advances their goals.

But the truth is that if we were to run into the Birkebunder Conference and behead every person or "reptoid" we found in attendance it wouldn't make one iota of difference. Because there isn't one conspiracy to unearth. There is no master-cabal. The snake has no head. You referenced a web earlier. This is a viable metaphor in it's way. The web ties every person on earth together. And there is no spider. Just more web. If you want to enact REAL CHANGE in the world it has to spread through your section of that web first. Grassroots action is the only action that CAN change the world because it is a pervasive system of behaviours and NOT a shadowy cabal that you are fighting against.



And you believe that a SECRET society that counts and has counted among its members some of the most powerful politicians and bussinessmen in the world, has existed for hundreds of years solely for the purpose of its members having the priviledge of wearing "silly rings"; participating in "goofy" rituals and drinking beer. Now you are being really naive.


The not-so-secret society you fear really is just a club. It's no more sinister than the elks or the rotary club. Their expressed goal is to participate in and promote "charitable work within a local or wider community, moral uprightness (in most cases requiring a belief in a Supreme Being) as well as the development and maintenance of fraternal friendship – as James Anderson's Constitutions originally urged – amongst brethren." Despite your fear of the "33rd degree" the truth is that the freemasons are themselves very decentralized with little to no overarching structure above the level of the grand lodge.



I have concluded that their higher levels are involved in the conspiracy. You buying it is inconsequential as you do not even seem aware of a conspiracy in the first place, are you?


THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY!!!



Does that mean that you will never see connections regarding anything and are incapable of "connecting the dots" regarding any subject area because you will percieve it to be "the daColvert Code" in action.


I ground my connections in reason and logic and not in the random accumulation of superficially simmilar symbolic motifs.



I just took exception to the knucklehead description, "nice guys", which contributed nothing to the discussion, rather like most of his posts regarding actual kung fu themes.


Actually it's probably accurate. Most of the masons I know are nice guys. I would have been tempted to join when I was invited to if it weren't for the fact that I don't believe in a supreme being of any description.



And then to UNITE SOUTH AMERICA into one entity: Centralisation of Power!!!!!


Bolivar never got much beyond uniting Venezuela and Ecuador. But the thing is that he was all about the decentralization of european power and the repatriation of it with the populace of the land to be governed. Actually he was largely working from a USAnian model.

The same USA that Uki says the NWO is so hot to dissolve.



The same thing that many organizations bearing masonic symbols are trying their best to do now!


Tell me: why do you believe the conspiracy advertises. If I were part of a shady cabal that used a unique set of images I would never use them in the logos of my cats paw organizations.



Here you are being deregatory and deceitful. The links provided had info from "the horses mouth", so to speak.


No. I'm being honest. The Clinton Chronicles are just bad arch-conservative propaghanda derived from innuendo and circumstantial argument. They attempt to establish that Clinton had motive for these disappeared people to disappear and then, based on their hastily constructed attempt at motive jump ahead and say "aha! Clinton did it!" And your other "actual person", Perkins, says absolutely nothing about a cabal of 33rd degree freemasons... the issue we are arguing.

As for my rebuttal of his accusation of an organized cabal please see above when I discuss the simplicity of conspiracy theory.



If I had said that someone who was part of a conspiracy to drown Latin America with debt and now he was telling it all, then you would ask me for proof. If I had failed to provide the proof, that is name and links, then you would have said that I have no facts and that I was speculating.

However, when I do provide links with actual people then you turn around and talk cr@p.


That's because warm bodies talking do not equate to proof. Anybody can say anything at any time. That doesn't make it true, especially on the internet! Proof would be for you to find a credible source providing documentary evidence of such a cabal. Hell, you can't even find the source for quotations from specific individuals when requested. You BELIEVE they said things that they may or may not have said. Even if they did without the origin of the quote it is devoid of context. A few omitted words could make for a statement very different in thrust.



The primary requirement for any assessment of a so called "food for thought" include information and references, which I have provided.


The irrelevant information and undependable references you have provided are not good proof of anything.



Hey, if I had wanted to entertain you then I would have provided links to some UFC meatheads punching each other in the head until the one with the lesser brain cells was left standing or perhaps a Youtube clip of Sanjruro defeating a slab with his "incredible" power.


IT would have been possibly more topical to a freemasonic conspiracy of global domination than what you have provided so far. It would be hard for it to be less topical.



The second requirement for any assessment of a so called "food for thought" is a brain!


Well there's my problem. The reptoids replaced mine with a computer. :p



Icke is not an anti semite as much as many people try to label him as such.


The following is a quote from And The Truth Shall Set You Free by Icke:



I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War... They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament."

That's right. Icke says a cabal of JEWS financed HITLER!!!

In the same book he makes specific reference to "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

Icke has also referred to books written by the anti-semite lobby group "Liberty Lobby" as being 'spot on'.



You did not watch that either did you?:rolleyes:


If you had watched the video then you would not have referred to it as "idle speculation".


Idle speculation was me being nice. I should have just said it the first time: blatant and empty conservative propaghanda without a shred of veracity.



That kind of "idle speculation" can get you sued, but to my knowledge no action was taken by the Clintons against the producers of that documentary. Nor were there any actions taken agains Icke when he made the same allegations in his books.

Some people don't make a habit of suing nutcases and drawing attention to their insane ramblings. Had they sued you would have said "aha! They are trying to silence him!"

[Hardwork108]

Considering I probably knwo more PERSONALLy about Masons than these people that probably have never even met, one, that doen't bother me in the least, after all, my family is descendant of the Order Of Christ.
For those that don't know, the Oder of Christ were Portuguese templars, one of the oldest and most prestigious along with the Teutonic Knights.

That must be it, there is a conspiracy of Teutonic Knucklehead Knights who are turning this place into an MMA (Mixed Meathead Arts) forum.:eek:

[SimonM]

Yet they have everything to do with a world wide exploitation that is causing the deaths of hundreds and thousands of people through assassinations, wars and economic sabotage, but that is ok then for you? You are still looking for proof of masonic involvement...lol,lol,lol.


Actually I challenge the veracity of the "secret cabal" model at all. I think this to be wishful hoping for simple solutions at best and insanity at worst.



As I said before, try and see the conspiracy and corruption first, then you can look deeper at who is behind it! The important point is that this conspiracy exists, you can sidetrack the discussion all you want but that fact remains.


There is plenty of corruption. Just no conspiracy.


Masons (at their higher levels) are involved but the issue is the conspiracy as you are not going to identify anything profound if you fail to see it.

PROVE IT, how many times must I say this?


PROVE IT

[uki]

MMA (Mixed Meathead Arts).oh i like that... i also like McMartial Arts aswell... obviously this is what you get when you take the spirituality out of the martial arts. :D

[SimonM]

Keep your mysticism superstitionist.

[uki]

Keep your mysticism superstitionist.nah... it's much better when i share it. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh i like that... i also like McMartial Arts aswell... obviously this is what you get when you take the spirituality out of the martial arts. :D

I really don't think that you or Fraud108 wants to get into a "lineage " debate.
As for spirituality, you have no idea of other peoples spirituality, just as they have no idea of yours.

[uki]

I really don't think that you or Fraud108 wants to get into a "lineage " debate.McMA is a joke... good for sport only. no offense.


As for spirituality, you have no idea of other peoples spirituality, just as they have no idea of yours.as far as i can percieve, there is a lack of spirituality on the boards.

[sanjuro_ronin]

McMA is a joke... good for sport only. no offense.
as far as i can percieve, there is a lack of spirituality on the boards.

You know as much as I hate when other make generalizations about TMA and such, it works the same about pretty much anything.
Don't generalize, it shows lack of understanding and of being objective.
Many don't mix their MA with their spirituality and many do, its a personal choice.

[Reverend Tap]

For about the past 15 minutes, I did a quick search for "Masonic" symbols. The following is a partial list of symbols that I have found ascribed to Freemasonry:

Cross (Christian or equal-armed)
Crown
Sword (any)
Candles
Ladders (any number of rungs)
Stars (5 or 6 points, any configuration)
Hammers
Triangles
Compass (either kind)
The sun
Two hands performing a (standard) handshake
Eagles
Pentagons
Obelisks
Pharaohs (or indeed, virtually anything Egyptian)
The letter "G"
The letter "M"
Most acute angles
Squares (geometric or builders')
Eyes

So yes, to sum up, "Masonic" symbols are everywhere...signifying nothing.

[uki]

Don't generalize, it shows lack of understanding and of being objective.it's simply what i see and hear... the MMA crowd speaks for itself, along with its actions and mentality.


Many don't mix their MA with their spirituality and many do, its a personal choice.did it ever occur to you that perhaps they have none to mix? true spirituality encompasses all aspects of ones life... competetive violence to feed the ego is showing a lack of spirituality in any shape or form.

[SimonM]

as far as i can percieve, there is a lack of spirituality on the boards.

That would apply to me, not to Sanjuro Ronin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's simply what i see and hear... the MMA crowd speaks for itself, along with its actions and mentality.
did it ever occur to you that perhaps they have none to mix? true spirituality encompasses all aspects of ones life... competetive violence to feed the ego is showing a lack of spirituality in any shape or form.

You group people into a "mma crowd" based on what?
People that have used MA for real, as in to save lives, perhaps their own, perhaps others, cane be as sipritual or as less sipritual as competitive fighters, and vice-versa.
YOU are not one to judge, you aren't able to, you have already made a decision based on your own views, which are far from the realities of others.
You simply don't know and are making a assumption, making you just as bad as those that do that about you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That would apply to me, not to Sanjuro Ronin.

No need to single out anyone one way or another.
We don't know enough about people to make that call unless they themselves decide to label THEMSELVES in such a way.

[uki]

That would apply to me, not to Sanjuro Ronin.just for the record, spirituality is not religious... not implying anyone is religious mind you, just clairifying.

[SimonM]

I just recall that the only time you got seriously cheezed with me is when I went off on an "all religions are insane" rip. Thus chances are good you do have a spiritual life of some sort.

I, on the other hand, really do not.

I have a creative life that serves a simmilar purpose but I recognize the inherent fiction of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

just for the record, spirituality is not religious... not implying anyone is religious mind you, just clairifying.

Quite correct, organized religion is, in many ways, the opposite of spirituality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just recall that the only time you got seriously cheezed with me is when I went off on an "all religions are insane" rip. Thus chances are good you do have a spiritual life of some sort.

I, on the other hand, really do not.

I have a creative life that serves a simmilar purpose but I recognize the inherent fiction of it.

Religions in of themselves tend not to be insane, organized religions and zealots on the other hand, to tend to be "out there".
I just don't like blanket statements.
Its a failing I have.
:D

[Reverend Tap]

true spirituality encompasses all aspects of ones life... competetive violence to feed the ego is showing a lack of spirituality in any shape or form.

You take a very narrow viewpoint of what constitutes spirituality. Consider all of the various things that have been, and in some cases still are, sacraments or sacred rituals in varying spiritual traditions; from human sacrifice, to prostitution, to tremendous drug use, to being dumped out in the woods and made to fend for yourself for a few days. He|l, there are South American cultures where ritualized annual combat on a large scale is an intrinsic part of the local spiritual tradition. You don't think there are people out there who engage in competitive unarmed combat and apply it to their own spirituality?

[uki]

You group people into a "mma crowd" based on what?is it really not that obvious?

YOU are not one to judge, you aren't able to, you have already made a decision based on your own views, which are far from the realities of others.
You simply don't know and are making a assumption, making you just as bad as those that do that about you.i have removed the plank from my own eye, therefore i can see clearly to point out the speck in other peoples eyes...

just because people use MMA to save themselves or defend themselves does not make it spiritual.

[sanjuro_ronin]

is it really not that obvious?

yes, and incorrect.


i have removed the plank from my own eye, therefore i can see clearly to point out the speck in other peoples eyes...

NO, you haven't, how do I know?
Because of this:

just because people use MMA to save themselves or defend themselves does not make it spiritual.

[SimonM]

Anyway we are moving away from Hardwork108's Fremasonophobia and into semantics. So I'll reiterate a previous statement:


PROVE IT

[uki]

might aswell agree to disagree... no sense in beating the carcass any longer. each of us is entitled to our own beliefs, you know where i stand and likewise i know where you stand.

for me... commercialized MMA is a lame effing joke. period... there is no changing my mind or my stance on the matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

might aswell agree to disagree... no sense in beating the carcass any longer. each of us is entitled to our own beliefs, you know where i stand and likewise i know where you stand.

for me... commercialized MMA is a lame effing joke. period... there is no changing my mind or my stance on the matter.

See, that is the issue, you equate MMA training and competition ( it isn't a style or system) with the values of TMA and that is just silly, just as silly as doing that with wrestling, baseball or soccer.
Well, soccer is the sport of God so...
:D
MMA has zero to do with spirituality, just like powerlifting and any other sport.

Remember, spirituality was added to TMA, the fighting came first.
Of course MMA is commercialised, what sport isn't ??

[uki]

Of course MMA is commercialised, what sport isn't ??exactly the point... MMA is a sport, nothing more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

exactly the point... MMA is a sport, nothing more.

Nobody ever said it was anything BUT that.
No one goes looking for spirituality in MMA, though I ma sure many that train and compete may very well be spiritual, just like there are spiritual boxers, judoka, 100 meter runners and beach volleyball players.

[Hardwork108]

PART 1



Because I've seen that other quote before, in it's proper context, and it's not really at all sinister.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it as you are the same person who saw nothing sinister in the Clinton Chronicles, From Freedom to Fascism and The John Perkins interviews....lol,lol,lol.




In your mind perhaps.

Well some of us have a (free) mind.


Freemasonry remains just about the worst-kept secret in the world. Mainly because most freemasons realize that the cat's been out of the bag ever since Cosi Fan Tutti was published... and so they really don't try to hard to make their society very secret.

Everybody knows about that the CIA, NSA and MI6 exist. That does not make them any less potent. All they have done is to increase their mis information/campaign to promote the image that they are there to gather information in the interest of the countries (and apparently their populations) they operate in.

The same is true for international banks who thrive on the misery of the debt ridden peoples of the Third World (and the First World). What is their public face? Yes it is "the caring banks who will lend you money to buy your home or any other stuff you can't afford". They have a public image that they maintain to keep their secret agendas secret. The cat is out of the bag regarding these institutions as well but do you think that this has affected their secret agenda?

Oil companies are notoriously secret and work hand in hand with the state as they "share" the same interests. BP is a prime example. Read about their connection with British Intelligence and their role in the overthrow of the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of Iran in the 1950's.

Read William Engedahl's book and enlighten yourself. What is the public image of Oil Companies? Yes "the environmentaly conscious institutions" that fund public projects, sports and so on.

You think that the masons are different because "the cat is out of the back"? They exist Simon and they have done so for hundreds of years, counting among their members the political,business and other elite of the industrialized societies.

However, you like to think of them as boys wearing funny rings and have their silly rituals, nothing to worry about, then fine.



I wish it were as simple as that.
In fact the simplicity of "conspiracy" and the simplicity of the solution are what I think likely attracts the weak willed to conspiracy theory.

The "weak willed" are the people who swallow the official version of world events, lock, stock and barrel for the fear of not handling the truth if they ever discovered it.


After all, if the architects of the world's ills are a small "them" than it's not their fault. It's just "them". The truth is much messier.

The fact is there is a "them" and all you have to do is recognize that they exist. Don't even think about them as masons or little green men from Mars. That is not the point as at this point as far as you are concerned, recognizing the political conspiracy that exists would be a great breakthrough.


Yes, the IMF and the World Bank have policies set in place to benefit a specific class of people (the major shareholders of multinational corporations) and work to forward an agenda on the global stage that advances their goals.
You make this sound like a small conspiracy. Well it isn't small!

What you have mentioned involves tens of thousands of people;it is killing and has killed millions of people and it effects millions more through wars, famin,revolutions and economic distablization.


But the truth is that if we were to run into the Birkebunder Conference and behead every person or "reptoid" we found in attendance it wouldn't make one iota of difference.

It may make a small difference, however it would be better to expose these people and what they do to stop others doing the same while using the same mechanisms.


Because there isn't one conspiracy to unearth. There is no master-cabal. The snake has no head. You referenced a web earlier. This is a viable metaphor in it's way. The web ties every person on earth together. And there is no spider. Just more web.

My reference of a spider's web implies connection. Powerful elements who destroy entire countries and their way of life for profit and interest are not going to let anyone else have a piece of their cake.


If you want to enact REAL CHANGE in the world it has to spread through your section of that web first. Grassroots action is the only action that CAN change the world because it is a pervasive system of behaviours and NOT a shadowy cabal that you are fighting against.

That is not a bad point. However, I would not use the same "democratic" system that is corrupt to the core and is owned by the same people who are running the so called democratic countries.


The not-so-secret society you fear really is just a club. It's no more sinister than the elks or the rotary club. Their expressed goal is to participate in and promote "charitable work within a local or wider community,
Just like the CIA's "expressed goal" of gathering information for the benefit of the American nation. Yes, nothing to do with dealing with drugs, revolutions/coup de tas, arms deals, assassinations and so on.


moral uprightness (in most cases requiring a belief in a Supreme Being) as well as the development and maintenance of fraternal friendship – as James Anderson's Constitutions originally urged – amongst brethren."

Yes and that is what "Democratic" governments and their law makers need to belong to, a secret society that keeps things "amongst brethren".


Despite your fear of the "33rd degree" the truth is that the freemasons are themselves very decentralized with little to no overarching structure above the level of the grand lodge.

What is your PROOF? Is it that they say so?


THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY!!!

You should concern yourself with the conspiracy that aims to centralize power on a global level and that is in the West erroding people's democratic freedom. You still haven't fathomed it have you?



I ground my connections in reason and logic and not in the random accumulation of superficially simmilar symbolic motifs.
As I said before, you only bother to connect the dots when you agree with the end conclusion.


Actually it's probably accurate. Most of the masons I know are nice guys. I would have been tempted to join when I was invited to if it weren't for the fact that I don't believe in a supreme being of any description.

Most of them are probably nice guys. Just like most people who work for the international banking giants and oil companies are probably very nice people. However, I am talking about the higher levels of their operation and that is where I have my doubts.




Bolivar never got much beyond uniting Venezuela and Ecuador. But the thing is that he was all about the decentralization of european power and the repatriation of it with the populace of the land to be governed. Actually he was largely working from a USAnian model.

Wether he was successful or not is not the point. He was a freemason and he was trying to unite South America under a centralized government.

There were a significant number freemasons among the Founding fathers of the US. They united the states under the American flag. They had had a war against the British army and their generals (who counted among them a significant amount of masons as well) and gained their "independence" from the Great Britain.

Later on there was the US civil war ending up in the North and South being united. Nowadays, there are many "economic" blocks being created throughtout the world to unite the nations.

The prime example is the European Community that started life as the European Economic Community to disguise the final goal of the project. At the time, because of nationalistic reasons, its architects concluded that the European people would not accept a political union, hence the economic label.

Then as through time when people got used to it they dropped the "Economic" out of the name. As we speak there are moves to fortify "economic" ties in the various trading blocks.

[Hardwork108]

PART 2


The same USA that Uki says the NWO is so hot to dissolve.

Well some researchers say that before an actual world government is established the conspirators will try as much as possible to dissolve national identity and certain cultural traits


Tell me: why do you believe the conspiracy advertises. If I were part of a shady cabal that used a unique set of images I would never use them in the logos of my cats paw organizations.
Why not. They have managed to fool millions of people like you for centuries..lol.lol.

Besides that is a masonic characteristic:

The MOST popular definition of Freemasonry states that it is 'a unique system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols'.

SHORT TALK BULLETIN
M.S.A. (Masonic Service Association)
Year and Volume Unknown, author unknown



No. I'm being honest.
Well so am I!


The Clinton Chronicles are just bad arch-conservative propaghanda derived from innuendo and circumstantial argument. They attempt to establish that Clinton had motive for these disappeared people to disappear and then, based on their hastily constructed attempt at motive jump ahead and say "aha! Clinton did it!"

Have you actually watched this video?



And your other "actual person",

Perkins, says absolutely nothing about a cabal of 33rd degree freemasons... the issue we are arguing.

I don't know what issue you are arguing but my main argument is that there IS a world conspiracy for centralized control of nations and that is being carried out through manufactured wars, assassinations, revolutions and inducement of debt and plain robbery. This leads to millions of innocent deaths. And yes there are high level masons involved in this. But you are missing the point!


As for my rebuttal of his accusation of an organized cabal please see above when I discuss the simplicity of conspiracy theory.

The simplicity is in your mind!




Because warm bodies talking do not equate to proof. Anybody can say anything at any time. That doesn't make it true, especially on the internet!

That statement holds true for you too!


Proof would be for you to find a credible source providing documentary evidence of such a cabal. Hell, you can't even find the source for quotations from specific individuals when requested.

There were two quotes. One could be verified and the other could not but did have an alleged source. You chose to read something else when the verifiable quote was presented.


You BELIEVE they said things that they may or may not have said. Even if they did without the origin of the quote it is devoid of context. A few omitted words could make for a statement very different in thrust.
1 of the 2 quotes that I provided had a varifiable source!


The irrelevant information and undependable references you have provided are not good proof of anything.
There are proof of a conspiracy and at this point in time that is what should concern you. I.e. that you are being screwed. Once you realize that then you can look into who it is that is screwing you!


IT would have been possibly more topical to a freemasonic conspiracy of global domination than what you have provided so far. It would be hard for it to be less topical.

Yes and we all know that knuckleheads never put a foot wrong here in the kung fu forums.


Well there's my problem. The reptoids replaced mine with a computer. :p

Well take it back and ask for your money back.




The following is a quote from And The Truth Shall Set You Free by Icke:



That's right. Icke says a cabal of JEWS financed HITLER!!!

In the same book he makes specific reference to "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

So if I had written a book and used references from the bible to back a hypophesis that the christians had financed Saddam Hussein or Hitler, then that would make me anti-chritian or a christian hater..lol,lol,lol,lol,


Icke has also referred to books written by the anti-semite lobby group "Liberty Lobby" as being 'spot on'.

I don't recall reading any such material. However, I am not denying it as I have not read all his work. If he has written such a statement then I would like to see it and its context.

David Icke has always denied being an anti semetic. He has never been afraid to speak his mind so I don't know why he would deny such an accusation if he thought he had just cause.

And he has said good things about the jews in his books. That I remember.

It is also worth adding that accusing someone of anti semetism usually results in so much bad publicity that their credibility (and/or carrier) is destroyed resulting in them being silenced.

It is funny that I went through an internet version of this when your friend lkfmdc doctored my posts and quoted them in a manner that they made me look antisemetic. He did this to silence me as he believed that my posts were bad for his kung fu tagged kickboxing business, which he implies is a better form of kung fu...lol.

Of course all of that falsehood collapsed around his (and Sanjuro's, who played a part) ears. Of course, that didn't stop lkfmdc inventing other lies, but that is his nature. Well I hope you see the parallel, anyway.


Idle speculation was me being nice. I should have just said it the first time: blatant and empty conservative propaghanda without a shred of veracity.

That is your opinion.


Some people don't make a habit of suing nutcases and drawing attention to their insane ramblings. Had they sued you would have said "aha! They are trying to silence him!"
That is a very weak argument when considering the people involved in the accusations.

[Hardwork108]

Actually I challenge the veracity of the "secret cabal" model at all. I think this to be wishful hoping for simple solutions at best and insanity at worst.

Well, one of us is wrong.;)


There is plenty of corruption. Just no conspiracy.

Hey when a rich continent is enslaved by trillions of dollars of debt behind which stand the western intelligence agencies, then I see a conspiracy!

When I see some the richest oil states in the world in a state of permanent war and slaughter, then I see a conspiracy!

When I see a rich continent like Africa being plundered and ravaged by wars, then I see conspiracy!

When I look at all of the above the finger always points to the same countries! The debt payments go to the same countries (corporations); the payments for the arms go to the same countries (corporations);The reconstructions projects go to the same countries (corporations); Cheap goods go to the same countries (corporations); strategic control and domination goes to the same countries (and corporations).

Yes there is no conspiracy just a couple of corrupt guys making a few bucks, eh?

When you consider the above then you will see the conspiracy in a much clearer light!



PROVE IT, how many times must I say this?

I provided links to the conspiracy and you ridiculed them. Even when they were "from the horses mouth". You still haven't grasped that you don't live in a democracy; that your country together with a few others are slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people directly and indirectly; You don't see the conspiracy regarding the Third World debt and you want proof about freemasons...lol,lol,lol.

The point is that there is a conspiracy. You want me to prove that the masons are behind it while at the same time you haven't even managed to see the conspiracy for yourself in the first place!....lol,lol,lol.



PROVE IT


I can provide you with links that talk about the freemasonic symbolisms in our society and company logos. I can provide you links with interviews with ex-masons, but again you will pay as much attention to them as you have to the less controversial aspect of this discussion.

I don't even think that you bothered to look at all the previous references that I provided. It seems to have been a case of "if this stuff was true then I, Simon, the Great, would have known about it".Lol!

You are like many others Simon. You believe that if there was a conspiracy then you would have seen it because, well, you are so smart, aren't you? lol,lol,lol.

[Hardwork108]

For about the past 15 minutes, I did a quick search for "Masonic" symbols. The following is a partial list of symbols that I have found ascribed to Freemasonry:

Cross (Christian or equal-armed)
Crown
Sword (any)
Candles
Ladders (any number of rungs)
Stars (5 or 6 points, any configuration)
Hammers
Triangles
Compass (either kind)
The sun
Two hands performing a (standard) handshake
Eagles
Pentagons
Obelisks
Pharaohs (or indeed, virtually anything Egyptian)
The letter "G"
The letter "M"
Most acute angles
Squares (geometric or builders')
Eyes

So yes, to sum up, "Masonic" symbols are everywhere...signifying nothing.

To reduce confusion you should look at the logos of the most powerful organizations in your country (and the world).

[Reverend Tap]

To reduce confusion you should look at the logos of the most powerful organizations in your country (and the world).

There is no confusion. I was making a point. So-called "Masonic" symbolism incorporates so many common figures and symbols as to render it utterly insignificant when some of them show up elsewhere. When any inclusion of one of two of the letters of the alphabet is "evidence" of Masonic involvement, and so are simple geometric figures like squares and triangles, and so is basically any symbol related to a very prominent Middle-Eastern culture, that "evidence" is utterly worthless in determining actual involvement or influence. It's basically the same mistaken way of thinking that makes people take the newspaper horoscopes seriously; it seems like it applies to their life, but in reality it only does so because they're written so vaguely that they can apply to anything.

Basically, you're seeing it because you want to see it.



The same is true for international banks who thrive on the misery of the debt ridden peoples of the Third World (and the First World). What is their public face? Yes it is "the caring banks who will lend you money to buy your home or any other stuff you can't afford". They have a public image that they maintain to keep their secret agendas secret. The cat is out of the bag regarding these institutions as well but do you think that this has affected their secret agenda?

Oil companies are notoriously secret and work hand in hand with the state as they "share" the same interests. BP is a prime example. Read about their connection with British Intelligence and their role in the overthrow of the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of Iran in the 1950's.

Read William Engedahl's book and enlighten yourself. What is the public image of Oil Companies? Yes "the environmentaly conscious institutions" that fund public projects, sports and so on.
You will never find me defending what multinational corporations tend to do, but their actions are absurdly simple to trace the intent of. They are structures for making money, nothing more and nothing less. The laundry list of questionable and even unquestionably despicable acts and policies undertaken by these institutions are all easily traceable not to some shadowy cabal's quest for ultimate power, but to their basic raison d'etre; making as much money for their executives and shareholders as possible.

[Hardwork108]

There is no confusion. I was making a point. So-called "Masonic" symbolism incorporates so many common figures and symbols as to render it utterly insignificant when some of them show up elsewhere. When any inclusion of one of two of the letters of the alphabet is "evidence" of Masonic involvement, and so are simple geometric figures like squares and triangles, and so is basically any symbol related to a very prominent Middle-Eastern culture, that "evidence" is utterly worthless in determining actual involvement or influence. It's basically the same mistaken way of thinking that makes people take the newspaper horoscopes seriously; it seems like it applies to their life, but in reality it only does so because they're written so vaguely that they can apply to anything.

I don't believe in newpaper horoscopes.


Basically, you're seeing it because you want to see it.

Believe me, and I am serious here, I don't want to SEE IT!

[Drake]

I hear there's a giant robot entombed in ice in the Hoover Dam.

[uki]

So-called "Masonic" symbolism incorporates so many common figures and symbols as to render it utterly insignificant when some of them show up elsewhere. depends on just what you believe... considering that i believe these groups stem back from babylon and before, it is no wonder these symbols are seemingly incorporated nonchalantly around the globe and accepted as being the norm... several thousands of years is plenty of time to have things become naturalized into society. history is written by those in charge, which evidently does not have to reflect the truth.

I hear there's a giant robot entombed in ice in the Hoover Dam.you've been watching too many movies. :p

[Kansuke]

There are some 'authentic' freakin' lunatics round here.

[uki]

There are some 'authentic' freakin' lunatics round here.look folks, another quality post from kansuke. :)

[uki]

another interesting catch of the day...


With spring nearly upon us, the Trilateral Commission will soon blossom into its annual conference — scheduled for Tokyo, the weekend of April 24-26. This networking elite of politicians, bankers, industrialists and intellectuals from North America, Europe, Japan, and South Korea strives to shape foreign and economic policies of nations from behind the scenes. Who are these Commissioners — and who commissioned them?

The notion of a tri-sphere concept, combining movers and shakers from three geographic regions, was first broached at a Bilderberg conference.

So what is Bilderberg — and from where does it derive its authority?

It is an elite group of self-appointed global manipulators — from North America and Europe — who have met privately since 1954 to quietly influence governments.


Their “planning group” convened on July 23rd and 24th at Pocantico Hills, a Rockefeller estate overlooking the Hudson River. Mr. Rockefeller underwrote the expense from his own (deep) pocket, having discovered, decades earlier, that investing in high-level networking paid huge dividends.

With approval from “the highest political and financial circles” (an internal Commission memo), the trio selected chairmen and directors to represent each sphere of the tri.

The Commission quickly became a springboard for the presidency of Jimmy Carter. Mr. Carter, as governor of Georgia, had caught Mr. Rockefeller’s eye as a potential president and, consequently, Zbiggy and Mr. Rockefeller lunched Jimmy in October 1972 at the Connaught Hotel in London, where they signed him on the spot to be a Commissioner. Jimmy also became David and Zbiggy’s presidential candidate — and the Commission bestowed him the power elite support (influence and money) he needed to “arise from nowhere.”

The Trilateral Commission was not nowhere — just nowhere (back then) to be found in the newspapers.

So Jimmy the peanut farmer got elected president in 1976, and Zbig became his national security adviser, the job he had coveted from the outset. Other Commissioners in the Carter Administration included Vice President Walter Mondale, Secretary of State Cyrus Vance, Defense Secretary Harold Brown and Treasury Secretary Michael Blumenthal — 18 in all, from 54 original members from the American sphere.

Together, this elitist clique messed things up real good: Soaring inflation, interest rates at 20 percent, and the world chessboard a horrible mess. President Carter’s poor judgment caused confusion among our allies, laughter in the Soviet Union, and led, ultimately, to the hostage crisis in Iran.

“It completely justified our belief,” a former senior CIA official told The Investigator, “that left to its own devices, the power elite is fully capable of causing another world war, not unlike their predecessors last century.”

obamas administration includes...

Many of President Obama’s picks for premier positions in his administration are Trilateral Commissioners (read: Beltway Establishment insiders). These include:

• Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner;

• National Security Adviser James Jones;

• Deputy National Security Adviser Thomas Donilon;

• Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair;

• State Department special envoys Richard Holbrooke. Dennis Ross, and Richard Haas;

• Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice;

• Lawrence Summers, Director of the National Economic Council;

• Deputy Secretary of State James Steinberg;

• Assistant Secretary of State Kurt Campbell;

• Paul Volcker, chairman of the Economic Recovery Committee.

(Gee, maybe President Obama will break Jimmy Carter’s record?)



full read... http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?p=1882 of course i am sure we'll get the same ole, same ole tin foil hat comments... this is almost good enough to count as being some change we can believe in. :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Quotes from conspiracy theorists doesn't make what you say true.

[Kansuke]

look folks, another quality post from kansuke. :)


Yeah, as opposed to all the 'quality' posts in this 'let's see who can sound like the craziest SOB!' thread.

[Drake]

It's all fun and games until the illuminati pulls you out of your house in the middle of the night...

[uki]

It's all fun and games until the illuminati pulls you out of your house in the middle of the night...the illuminati can kiss my white arse.

Quotes from conspiracy theorists doesn't make what you say true.doesn't make it false either. :)


Yeah, as opposed to all the 'quality' posts in this 'let's see who can sound like the craziest SOB!' thread.buzzzz buzzzz buzzz... :p

[Kansuke]

I can't believe some of y'all are really this stupid/crazy. HW8 I would expect, but the rest of you loons have no excuse.

[uki]

I can't believe some of y'all are really this stupid/crazy. HW8 I would expect, but the rest of you loons have no excuse.well they say seeing is believing... and yet even after seeing you still cannot believe. :p

[Kansuke]

Whatever you say, fruitcake.

[uki]

Whatever you say, fruitcake.effing A right. :)

[Drake]

the illuminati can kiss my white arse.
doesn't make it false either. :)

buzzzz buzzzz buzzz... :p

If you make it up, it isn't true.

[Hardwork108]

There are some 'authentic' freakin' lunatics round here.
Stop talking about yourself all the time. Anyway, this stuff is above your knucklehead "brain".

So why don't you go and teach Sanjuro some wrestling techniques or something?

Then if love does blossom between you two then you can thank me later.

[Hardwork108]

If you make it up, it isn't true.

That is a good point but then not everything is made up. There are quotes from verifiable sources.

Here are some more official made up lies:

"The Weapons of Mass Destruction"; "America (Britain, Italy,Germany, etc.) is a Free Country"; The various international Human Rights initiatives (backed by countries that are the worst abusers of these rights).

There are more but I don't have time.


Another important point, the labeling of all such researchers as "Conspiracy Theorists" is also unjust. When someone gets close to the truth he is immediately labelled as such to discredit his research.

[Hardwork108]

Yeah, as opposed to all the 'quality' posts in this 'let's see who can sound like the craziest SOB!' thread.

You have already won that award a long time ago!

Kansuke, no one can come close to you in that department. Aren't you proud of being an award winner here?

[Kansuke]

Anyway, this stuff is above your knucklehead "brain".


LOLOLOL! Oh yes, your little make-pretend world is very complex. Nice to see that you don't restrict your LARPing to martial arts fantasies.


What a complete disaster of a human being...wow

[uki]

What a complete disaster of a human being...wowand yet more wonderful words of inspirational wisdom by our very own emotionally stable and mentally mature poster... kansuke... lets everyone give him a great big round of applause for adding his intellectually superiour insight into the profound wonders of the universal mind.

*clapping hands*

[Reverend Tap]

depends on just what you believe... considering that i believe these groups stem back from babylon and before, it is no wonder these symbols are seemingly incorporated nonchalantly around the globe and accepted as being the norm... several thousands of years is plenty of time to have things become naturalized into society. history is written by those in charge, which evidently does not have to reflect the truth.
Even supposing that was true, you can't honestly expect anyone to take seriously the idea that these groups are the only ones who would come up with using simple geometric figures, single letters, or images of common natural objects as symbols. Such things really don't require any "naturalization."

Question: If these groups have been operating clandestinely since pre-Babylonian times around the world in a singular, unified effort to completely dominate the globe, and have, over nearly the full course of recorded human existence, thus far failed to actually accomplish this goal to its full extent, why exactly should we be concerned that they're continuing to try? They're clearly really, really bad at it.

[uki]

Even supposing that was true, you can't honestly expect anyone to take seriously the idea that these groups are the only ones who would come up with using simple geometric figures, single letters, or images of common natural objects as symbols. of course not, they cannot hide and suppress all knowledge, plus they never anticipated a vast spiritual awakening as which is occurring across the globe at this time.


Question: If these groups have been operating clandestinely since pre-Babylonian times around the world in a singular, unified effort to completely dominate the globe, and have, over nearly the full course of recorded human existence, thus far failed to actually accomplish this goal to its full extent, why exactly should we be concerned that they're continuing to try?in reality we shouldn't be concerned(mankind as a whole) because they will fail... they are jumping from shadow to shadow as the light raises higher and higher. the reason they will fail is because the truth is being spread and the people and mass consciousness are waking up... yet you will definitely see one last major pitch to accomplish their goal, which unfortunately will result in mass destruction and millions of deaths world wide.


They're clearly really, really bad at it.they are now, but tell that to the folks during the middle ages and before when they had an iron grip over everyone...

[Kansuke]

and yet more wonderful words of inspirational wisdom by our very own emotionally stable and mentally mature poster... kansuke... lets everyone give him a great big round of applause for adding his intellectually superiour insight into the profound wonders of the universal mind.

*clapping hands*



This thread has officially voided any right you ever had or ever might have had to employ sarcasm.

[uki]

This thread has officially voided any right you ever had or ever might have had to employ sarcasm.another wonderful presentation of our truly gifted poster... kansuke... a supreme encore folks, let's give him another round of applause!!!

*and the crowd goes wild*

kansuke!!! kansuke!! kansuke!!!

folks this is amazing. i have never seen anything like it!!! the crowd is absolutely frenzied here. this is amazing!!! we haven't seen the likes of this since obama's speech to the house.

can't wait to see what he has to say next... clearly history is in the making here. :D

[CLFLPstudent]

Question: If these groups have been operating clandestinely since pre-Babylonian times around the world in a singular, unified effort to completely dominate the globe, and have, over nearly the full course of recorded human existence, thus far failed to actually accomplish this goal to its full extent, why exactly should we be concerned that they're continuing to try? They're clearly really, really bad at it.

Good question, I was thinking the same thing.... Just get it over with already, maybe it would be better than the crap that's going on now...


they are now, but tell that to the folks during the middle ages and before when they had an iron grip over everyone...

So you agree, that IF there actually is a conspiracy that they are really bad at it since it's been thousands of years so far and still no NWO? Then what are you so concerned about?

-David

[Hardwork108]

another wonderful presentation of our truly gifted poster... kansuke... a supreme encore folks, let's give him another round of applause!!!

*and the crowd goes wild*

kansuke!!! kansuke!! kansuke!!!

folks this is amazing. i have never seen anything like it!!! the crowd is absolutely frenzied here. this is amazing!!! we haven't seen the likes of this since obama's speech to the house.

can't wait to see what he has to say next... clearly history is in the making here. :D

Uki,

Could Kansuke be the next US president? :eek:

[Hardwork108]

LOLOLOL! Oh yes, your little make-pretend world is very complex. Nice to see that you don't restrict your LARPing to martial arts fantasies.


What a complete disaster of a human being...wow

A self confessed WRESTLER posts insistently in a KUNG FU forum and talks about my MA fantasies?....lol,lol,lol.

You really should consider a career in politics. The elite can always use one more brain-dead psychopath among their puppets.

[Kansuke]

A self confessed WRESTLER posts insistently in a KUNG FU forum and talks about my MA fantasies?

Yes that is correct, Two-Year Grandmaster.


You really should consider a carrier in politics.

What should I carry?




(did someone say "brain dead?") :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Yes that is correct, Two-Year Grandmaster.
And your inability to count properly will be an asset in your new political life.




What should I carry?

Your "dead brain" of course. Believe me that is an asset if you ever want to get anywhere in politics in a "Democratic" country.





(did someone say "brain dead?") :rolleyes:

Yes I did!

Boy, you are slower than usual today, aren't you?:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Even supposing that was true, you can't honestly expect anyone to take seriously the idea that these groups are the only ones who would come up with using simple geometric figures, single letters, or images of common natural objects as symbols. Such things really don't require any "naturalization."

It is the way some of these simple symbols are presented that gives them significance.


Question: If these groups have been operating clandestinely since pre-Babylonian times around the world in a singular, unified effort to completely dominate the globe, and have, over nearly the full course of recorded human existence, thus far failed to actually accomplish this goal to its full extent, why exactly should we be concerned that they're continuing to try? They're clearly really, really bad at it.

You should concern yourself because they have caused and ARE causing untold sufferring in their attempts to further their agenda. I agree with Uki that there is a kind of awakening happening (apparently outside this forum) but the fact remains that as we speak there are attempts to erode our freedoms using excuses such as, "the War on Terrorism";"The War on Drugs";"Global Warming", etc.

These excuses are also used to centralize power internationally to deal with these so called "Global Issues or problems". Meanwhile the worldwide slaughter continues with weapons of "mass destruction" that are somehow gotten hold of by the warring parties, which are produced(for the most part) in the Western Industrialized countries, the same nations that give everyone else a headache with their preaching of "Human Rights" , "Peace", "Freedom", "Democracy" and etc. and etc.

Of course the other avenue of the worldwide control is the international debt that is creating a life of misery for millions who live in the so called Third World countries including those in Latin America, where I live. Most, if not all of these countries have more than paid their debts by paying the extortionate interest rates on those very debts, but there is no mercy coming from the first world banks (multinational corporations). For more enlightenment regarding these debts please watch the John Perkins interviews, whose links I provided earlier in this thread.
[To learn more about the US's own debt problem, then watch the link I provided about the Federal Reserve!]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173


While all of this is happening the populations of the guilty countries are kept in intellectual limbo by a media that is wholely owned and controlled by those in power. Some of those intellectually repressed members of the masses even post here in the Kung Fu Forum!

[uki]

Could Kansuke be the next US president?now that is the million dollar question... i'd have to say no way, he's too busy swapping sweat with his floor buddies. :D

Then what are you so concerned about?you wouldn't believe me if i told you. :)

[Hardwork108]

now that is the million dollar question... i'd have to say no way, he's too busy swapping sweat with his floor buddies. :D

That could be some weird masonic ritual. :eek:

I am beginning to think that the masons have a special lodge for the knuckleheads of this world.:D

It would explain why they always insist on sticking together even when their cause is a lost one.;) :D

[SimonM]

You will never find me defending what multinational corporations tend to do, but their actions are absurdly simple to trace the intent of. They are structures for making money, nothing more and nothing less. The laundry list of questionable and even unquestionably despicable acts and policies undertaken by these institutions are all easily traceable not to some shadowy cabal's quest for ultimate power, but to their basic raison d'etre; making as much money for their executives and shareholders as possible.

Thank you Reverend Tap. Another eloquent post. :D

[uki]

It would explain why they always insist on sticking together even when their cause is a lost one.a puss cannot usually stand by himself. :D

[Hardwork108]

a puss cannot usually stand by himself. :D

LOL!

They don't even "stand" that well when they do stick together.:D

[SimonM]

Some REAL food for thought. Read this link if you DON'T believe whatever you are told by strangers on the interwebz. (http://skepdic.com/freemasons.html)

Also read this. Seriously, read it. (http://www.skepdic.com/illuminati.html)

[Hardwork108]

Some REAL food for thought. Read this link if you DON'T believe whatever you are told by strangers on the interwebz. (http://skepdic.com/freemasons.html)

Also read this. Seriously, read it. (http://www.skepdic.com/illuminati.html)

They are just links that have nothing to do with the conspiracy that is going on now. There are major wars, economic instability/famine, civil wars and revolutions. Look at who benefits and you will see the same elements time and again. Look at who provides the weapons; who lies to start wars; look at money trail and who benefits.

That is the conspiracy!

So stop trying to discredit it by your feeble debunking attempts. Thank you!

[SimonM]

Clearly you didn't READ them.

Those links discuss YOUR conspiracy theory in DETAIL...

And with a critical eye.

[Hardwork108]

Clearly you didn't READ them.

Those links discuss YOUR conspiracy theory in DETAIL...

And with a critical eye.

There is nothing wrong with having a critical eye but he fact is that you should use that when some nut job comes out attempting to debunk a conspiracy FACT!

Look around you and use your logic and you will see the conspircacy all over the place!

[SimonM]

You have provided nothing but idle speculation. I have yet to see anything even remotely approximating the hint of a fact.

[Hardwork108]

You have provided nothing but idle speculation. I have yet to see anything even remotely approximating the hint of a fact.

You will never see the facts because your "antenna" is tuned to the Official channels.;)

[SimonM]

I will never see your facts because they are as non-existant as your groundfighting skills.

[Hardwork108]

I will never see your facts because they are as non-existant as your groundfighting skills.

Who said I had groundfighting skills?:confused:

I said that my mainland Wing Chun schools trains Wing Chun groundfighting. I mentioned to another poster (MasterKiller) that I have not reached this part of the cyllabus. You were posting on the same thread and you were referred to it I believe but you missed it.

No wonder you don't see the facts in the political discussions. Your antenna is broke. So feel happy to see the facts in your evening news.:rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

Who said I had groundfighting skills?



Don't worry, NO ONE here thinks you have any kind of skills at all.

[Hardwork108]

Don't worry, NO ONE here thinks you have any kind of skills at all.

Of course they don't "think". If they could think, then they wouldn't be glorified kickboxers but genuine kung fu men.:D

Besides, what do kickboxers know about genuine kung fu? NOTHING! :)

[Kansuke]

Of course they don't "think". If they could think, then they wouldn't be glorified kickboxers but genuine kung fu men.:D

Besides, what do kickboxers know about genuine kung fu? NOTHING! :)




Nobody knows but the great Two-Year Grandmaster!!!

[Hardwork108]

Nobody knows but the great Two-Year Grandmaster!!!

You are getting there old boy. Now all you have to do is to replace the number 2 with 8 and instead of Grand Master, refer to me as you senior, not just in kung fu, but in everything!