rating the Chinatowns. LA vs. San Fran

[LaterthanNever]

Hi all,

I wasn't even aware that there WAS a Chinatown in Los Angeles! I learn something new all the time. I will be visiting a friend in California next week(he lives just outside of SF).

Can anyone tell me if the LA Chinatowns kung fu climate is anything like SF chinatown?(in terms of kung fu..SF probably even beats NYC). Thanks all.

LTN

[Eddie]

I'm sure theres a China town in every major city in the world.

Heck, Johannesburg (South Africa), has 3 China towns scattered around the city.

[YouKnowWho]

I'm sure theres a China town in every major city in the world.

The 1st time that I took my wife to Beijing, she asked me, "Where is the Chinatown?"

[Eddie]

hehe... did you find it? You have to know where to look tho ... Beijing is pretty big ;)

[omarthefish]

Hi all,

I wasn't even aware that there WAS a Chinatown in Los Angeles! I learn something new all the time. I will be visiting a friend in California next week(he lives just outside of SF).

Can anyone tell me if the LA Chinatowns kung fu climate is anything like SF chinatown?(in terms of kung fu..SF probably even beats NYC). Thanks all.

LTN

Having spent time in both, the answer is a categorical "no".

LA Chinatown has no visable kung fu climate at all. In LA it's all about Monterey Park, the "other" Chinatown. Monterey Park is more Taiwanese as compared to the SF Chinatown which is mostly Cantonese and other southerners like Toisanese. Jason Tsou is keepen it real with the Wu-Tan folks out there on the weekends. Not sure who else actually. Like most stuff in LA, the good kung fu is spread out. Shenwu is down southwest of town. Buk Sam Kong teaches closer to Silverlake. . . kind of about 10 minutes south of Griffith Park.

Stuff is more scattered all over in LA.

[LaterthanNever]

omarthefish,(and others who answered)

Thanks. Are you aware if there are any Bak Mei and/or Lung Ying folks in LA? I know Master Eddie Chong is in Sacramento and Master Zhong Luo is in SF. Some styles seem to be a little hard to locate when there are not named players who have been around awhile(ie: Master Bucksam Kong).

[EarthDragon]

I agree with omarthefish, I lived in SF chinatown right off Grant st. and i visted LA chinatown... they dont compare.. SF is the mecca of MA. you wil find adam hsu tat ma wong doc fei wong, john chang, and countless others... i suggest you vist SF the city is more exciting to see as well.

[David Jamieson]

Vancouver Canada has a large and very nice chinatown.

Toronto and Markham Canada have pretty decent couple of china towns as well including the largest exclusively Chinese mall in the world outside of China.

I'd like to see them disappear eventually and just get rolled into everyday society. I always think that overtly ethnic neighbourhoods is akin to ghettos in a lot of respects. But maybe it's just me? I dunno. :)

[sha0lin1]

I have never been to either Chinatown but my Master says that if he could live anywhere in the U.S. he would live in San Francisco's Chinatown because he says it is just like being back home in China.

[MasterKiller]

The men gathered in darkness beneath downtown Oklahoma City streets.

In underground Chinatown, flickering bulbs sent shadows skittering across the hand-drawn pictographs on the walls. Amid the click of mah-jongg tiles and the bubbling talk of poker players, opium smokers lay drowsily on the floor, pipes slipping from languid fingers.

Nearby, other men rested on grass mats in cell-like living quarters or made egg rolls, wontons and tofu for the restaurants above them, in the daylight world. The pay was low, the hours long. Few women ventured below.

This wasn't what the men had come here for.

These men, these hidden men, left the famine and rebellion of 19th century China seeking peace and prosperity in America.

Many came to San Francisco — Jiu Jin San, the "Mountain of Gold” — dreaming of wealth, only to find hard labor and persecution. State and federal exclusion laws drove them south and east from California, and some settled in Oklahoma.

"At the very beginning, in the 1890s, we're talking about 50 to 80 (people),” University of Central Oklahoma historian Bing Li said. "At the turn of the century before statehood, we're talking about 200 or 250, mostly in the Oklahoma City area.”

By the time they arrived here, they had learned their lessons: Be discreet. Avoid attention.

Go underground.

Hundreds inhabit caverns
For decades, the existence of the subterranean Chinatown has been debated, despite Li's research and written records that seem to confirm its reality.
In 1921, for example, The Oklahoman reported on an inspection of a 50-room "colony” below 14 S Robinson Ave. An excerpt follows:

Witnesses: Six inspectors of the state health department; one police detective.

They waded into Oklahoma City's Chinatown Wednesday and visited all its nooks ever seen by white man, and came away reporting the 200 or more inhabitants of the submerged quarter in good health and surroundings and as sanitary as all get out.

A resident, Hauan Tsang, led the officials through "a dozen connected caverns.” Then the inspectors "slipped” over to another basement below California Avenue, where they were greeted with open arms and wide grins. The friendly reception made them wonder if word of their earlier visit had spread — and if so, how.

There are no telephones in the apparently unconnected places. ... The old police theory that a second basement beneath the whole raft of Chinese dwellings is connected by a tunnel with the suburbs of the colony was called to mind to explain the unexpected welcome.

The existence of such a tunnel was never confirmed. Nor were rumors of a third level said to contain a temple and cemetery.

In all likelihood, news of the inspection spread in a more prosaic way — by Chinese living and working in the daylight world. The 1922 city directory lists a Chinese library at 210½ W California Ave., not far from the second site visited by the inspectors.

The librarian, D.N. Koo, lived at 12 S Robinson Ave., near the entrance to the first site. A Chinese restaurant occupied the same address — where federal agents discovered 25 men in an opium den beneath the building in August 1922.

"Down a flight of stairs went the officers, tipped off by freight clerks, and through an oaken door which is (entered) by means of a hanging rope,” The Oklahoman reported. "They entered a room where air potent with sunny dreams of sleepers was only so much thick, stifling mist to them. ... Four Chinese lay unconscious when the raid was made.

"Their pipes had clanked to the floor. The opening of the den followed the discovery shortly before noon of narcotics, oriental tobacco and rum in a freight shipment at the Frisco depot.”

The restaurant proprietor, Wong On Chong, was arrested on suspicion of being "the operator of a gigantic smuggling business.”

‘A continual menace'
"There were legal Chinese-Americans, legal owners,” Li said. "They owned businesses above ground. You'd better believe they took advantage of the cheap labor” provided by illegal Chinese workers in Oklahoma City.
In part, cheap labor is what funneled the Chinese workers to Oklahoma in the first place.

The men sailed to America seeking gold but soon found themselves in a sweat economy, earning a meager wage amid the clank and clang of the railroad industry, Li said in a 2006 scholarly paper. By 1860, at least 10,000 Chinese worked for the Central Pacific Railroad.

But when completed railway projects resulted in mass lay-offs, sentiment toward the Chinese soured, Li wrote. In 1877, white workers rioted in California, and the U.S. Congress was told that Chinese laborers had driven wages so low that they were "a continual menace” threatening to "degrade all white working-people to the abject condition of a servant class.”

In 1878, the federal court ruled that Chinese people could not become citizens. Four years later, Chinese immigration was banned.

Unwelcome, illegal and unable to bring their families from China to America, many Chinese left the West Coast, beginning a decades-long migration inland to try to escape racial violence and persecution, Li wrote.

Some found a home along Robinson Avenue, lingering until about 1929 before drifting away from the area. Their time downtown prompted rumors and wild stories that lasted for years.

White families warned unruly children to behave lest the Chinese took them into their subterranean lair, never to be seen again. One account claimed the Chinese fled the basements after a man committed suicide there. The extent of the tunnels grew with each person who told the story.

"If recollections by some residents are correct,” The Oklahoman reported in 1969, "an underground ‘Chinese city' once extended from the North Canadian River to NW 17 and Classen — quite a distance for digging tunnels.

"And (if) everyone's memory is to be believed, there were so many tunnel entrances to this underground city that it was nearly impossible to walk a downtown sidewalk without falling into one.”

Abandoned ‘city' found
In April 1969, wrecking crews demolishing unused buildings in the downtown area discovered a set of "expertly handcrafted stone stairs” in an alley behind the Commerce Exchange Building at Robinson and Sheridan avenues, Li said.
The steep steps ended at a scarred, wooden door sealed with an intricate Chinese padlock and leather straps.

Underground Chinatown, it seemed, had just been found again.

As the city council debated whether to declare the discovery a historic site, former Mayor George Shirk — the director of the Oklahoma Historical Society — led an expedition into the long-abandoned ruins. Among those with him was Jim Argo, then a photographer for The Oklahoman.

"Shirk took us down there to see this place,” Argo said recently. "He told us it was a Chinese laundry and opium place. ... We went down that narrow flight of stairs until we were down in the basement. They had little individual rooms where people lived, about the size of a prison cell. I don't think there was any outside light coming in.”

Flashlight beams zigzagged around the low-ceilinged structure, picking out an old stove and tattered papers bearing Chinese symbols, apparently some sort of accounting system.

Yellowed editorial cartoons about China and a faded American map clung to a wall in a large living area, and a dozen coat hooks hung in a neighboring room.

Some of the walls were brick and cool to the touch. Others, used to break large spaces into smaller rooms, were made of wood or wallboard, while The floors were composed of damp cement. A sign attached to a small cubicle bore two words: "Come Gamble.”

In all, the chambers occupied a space about 50 feet wide by 140 feet long; Shirk's explorers found a second Robinson Avenue entrance.

"Shirk guessed that similar rooms exist under the remainder of the block,” The Oklahoman reported, "but no access to them were found.”

City council members elected not to save the site. It was destroyed in the name of urban renewal, and what once was underground is now buried. The Cox Convention Center marks its grave.

[SimonM]

the 1st time that i took my wife to beijing, she asked me, "where is the chinatown?"

rotflmfao!

[brothernumber9]

That's what one of my sihings did when he went to beijing as well. He was taking a cab ride to his hotel. The cabbie was pointing out in a very loud voice, all the sights, what building was what, some minutia (sp?) history, and then asks my sihing what he will be doing during his stay in beijing. My sihing says, "I don't know, I heard you got a kick ass chinatown here, can you take me there?"
For the rest of the cab ride, the cabbie just yelled outloud about, "what?!?! china town???!? Dis China!, s'no chinatown!!!! What chinatown!?!?! everywhere chinatown!!!!..." on and on. I got a laugh imagining how it went.

This same sihing also went to vietnam, visited a kungfu school there, and proceded to tell them how lion dance originated in America, how columbus taught it to the natives, and how everyone in America knows lion dance, that it's taught in all the elementary schools. That lions were from africa and then specimens captured and sent to Europe where lion dance started, and then migrated to America, that China was late to the party.

[ngokfei]

SF has one of the biggest but after a bit loses the "old" chinatown flare.

LA is kind of like a Washing Tong DC's single street.

NY is pretty much what you get. Old, smelly and crowded. The closest thing you'll get to actually visiting China. Oh there are 4 in NYC.

[taai gihk yahn]

Oh there are 4 in NYC.
4? Manhattan, Flushing, Sunset Park - what am I missing?

[lkfmdc]

The 1st time that I took my wife to Beijing, she asked me, "Where is the Chinatown?"

I got that beat, becasue it is 100% true

I was in Shanghai and we had to find a Cantonese place because we wanted real "yum cha" (dim sum), so we found the Cantonese chinatown in Shanghai, no joke :p

[Tid Sin]

The SF C-town Gung Fu scene is awesome. I was there not too long ago and some mo kwoons are within a few minutes walking distance of each other off Grant: Yau Kung Mun (similar to Lung Ying/Pak Mei); Hung Mun (HS CLF); YC Wong's (HG, Pak Kua, Tai Chi, Pek Kwar); Leung Ting's (Ving Tsun). Even chatted with Eric Lee (coincidentally, from Big Trouble In Little China, which was set in SF C-town 22 years before).

[ngokfei]

Manhattan
Queens (Flushing)
Brooklyn (sunset park - if that is what its called)
Staten Island - Bayridge (well it was there but only a few stores around a community center/Church)

Cantonese Dim Sum in NYC is better tasting then in SF (IMO) must be the pollution factor:D

[EarthDragon]

LOL you are considering bayridge to be a chinatown? LOL the Italians will love that..... there might be some chinese resturants in bayridge but is definatly no chinatown....

[taai gihk yahn]

Cantonese Dim Sum in NYC is better tasting then in SF (IMO) must be the pollution factor:D
we actually have some good places out on LI now that have "real" C-town stuff, so no more trips into NYC on Sunday AM!


LOL you are considering bayridge to be a chinatown? LOL the Italians will love that..... there might be some chinese resturants in bayridge but is definatly no chinatown....
never had heard of it myself (so, of course, it can't possibly exist ;))

[SavvySavage]

You'd like to see all the "overly ethnic" neighborhoods disappear? Where do you expect people who don't speak English to go?


New York is totally different from much of the USA. Most of the US is redneck. Do you want everyone to look like rednecks?

[ngokfei]

oops yeah you got me on that one.:o

I meant to say Bay Terrace (i used to live in Bayridge). pretty small back in the day. Mostly it centered around the chinese Culture schoo/center.

check it out
http://www.sichinese.org/

[Shaolinlueb]

This same sihing also went to vietnam, visited a kungfu school there, and proceded to tell them how lion dance originated in America, how columbus taught it to the natives, and how everyone in America knows lion dance, that it's taught in all the elementary schools. That lions were from africa and then specimens captured and sent to Europe where lion dance started, and then migrated to America, that China was late to the party.

this guy sounds like a f*cking madman and he would be hilarious to watch do all this.

[Lokhopkuen]

Having spent time in both, the answer is a categorical "no".

LA Chinatown has no visable kung fu climate at all. In LA it's all about Monterey Park, the "other" Chinatown. Monterey Park is more Taiwanese as compared to the SF Chinatown which is mostly Cantonese and other southerners like Toisanese. Jason Tsou is keepen it real with the Wu-Tan folks out there on the weekends. Not sure who else actually. Like most stuff in LA, the good kung fu is spread out. Shenwu is down southwest of town. Buk Sam Kong teaches closer to Silverlake. . . kind of about 10 minutes south of Griffith Park.

Stuff is more scattered all over in LA.

Actually San Francisco has a huge Chinatown compared to Los Angeles. As far as martial related LA Chinatown's Alpine Park is a hot bed of activity 6-9AM. In the evening there East Wnd Kung Fu Club and a LKD class are in session. There are many classes great martial schools in LA and most of them are nowhere near Chinatown. Monterey Park is active early morning daily and even more so on the weekend. Bucksam Kong's students teach at his school and his older students Vernon Rieta & Don Hamby are pretty active with their own classes. My Master Ken Hui teaches in Alhambra another of my classmates in Whittier. Chinatown has it's own interesting martial flavor and every now and again I meet some of my friends who teach there for Yum Cha. hope this helps.

[banditshaw]

I think from an overtly visible point of view SF Chinatown seems to be more active. La Chinatown is slept on cause it's quite small in comparison. But like Lokhopkuen has already said the Chinese Martial Arts community in the LA area is quite plentiful.

Lokhopkuen,
I thought Vernon Rieta went back to Hawaii. However I could very well be mistaken. I also remember a Sifu by the name of Fred Lee teaching Lam Family Hung Ga Kuen here in LA also, but it's been awhile since I heard that.

[Violent Designs]

Doesn't matter what style or teacher you train under, if you're in the LA area, we welcome (Bandit, me, and a few other cats) you to train and spar with us!

[Tid Sin]

Lokhopkuen,
I thought Vernon Rieta went back to Hawaii. However I could very well be mistaken. I also remember a Sifu by the name of Fred Lee teaching Lam Family Hung Ga Kuen here in LA also, but it's been awhile since I heard that.


Hi Banditshaw,


Re: Fred Lee

http://hungkuenlee.net/index.htm


Re: Vernon Rieta

If the info's right, he teaches adult classes at Koko Head District Park on Tuesdays 7:30 - 8:30 pm in Honolulu. On other days, he teaches kids classes, as well as Tai Chi.

[Faruq]

Why does Chicago's Chinatown pale so miserably in comparison? There are so few kung fu schools in this one, only one that I've heard of....

[omarthefish]

I think from an overtly visible point of view SF Chinatown seems to be more active. La Chinatown is slept on cause it's quite small in comparison. But like Lokhopkuen has already said the Chinese Martial Arts community in the LA area is quite plentiful.

Lokhopkuen,
I thought Vernon Rieta went back to Hawaii. However I could very well be mistaken. I also remember a Sifu by the name of Fred Lee teaching Lam Family Hung Ga Kuen here in LA also, but it's been awhile since I heard that.

Nobody's bagging the LA CMA community. There's TONS of REALLY GOOD CMA in LA. . . .it's just not all clustered in Chinatown. The Chinatown sucks. The kung fu scene is great.

[Lokhopkuen]

I think from an overtly visible point of view SF Chinatown seems to be more active. La Chinatown is slept on cause it's quite small in comparison. But like Lokhopkuen has already said the Chinese Martial Arts community in the LA area is quite plentiful.

Lokhopkuen,
I thought Vernon Rieta went back to Hawaii. However I could very well be mistaken. I also remember a Sifu by the name of Fred Lee teaching Lam Family Hung Ga Kuen here in LA also, but it's been awhile since I heard that.

I could be wrong but many of Doug Wong's old students went to Vernon when they left White Lotus so I assume he is here.

As far as what anyone is really doing martially in LALA I don't know. I do know anyone teaching for a living is suffering due to Bushanomics. I have a few martial brothers I keep in touch with. Don Hamby and I hang some times, Kenny Edwards I saw recently I stopped by his school after snowboarding a week ago on the way back home. I hear the Ying Jow Pai will gather here so a few of my brothers from there are s'possed to hang with me and I'll pay respect to Master Shum. Dan Carr and i hang sometimes he's teaching a little. I have a small class that is getting smaller all of the time and the rest of the time I stay to myself. I go out to my teacher's only when I have to He has a huge group (He is the Master That I am not) and my young classmates are dangerous scrappers hungry for human flesh LOL! I box with them when ever I feel the need to acquire a new injury.
I'm just getting old and hoping to get older;)

[Lokhopkuen]

Nobody's bagging the LA CMA community. There's TONS of REALLY GOOD CMA in LA. . . .it's just not all clustered in Chinatown. The Chinatown sucks. The kung fu scene is great.
Chinatown is good for food and cheep after hours booze if you're into that:D
I used to go down on weapons hunts but s h i t I got 4 or 5 of EVERYTHING NOW so I gave up that habit.

[Lokhopkuen]

Doesn't matter what style or teacher you train under, if you're in the LA area, we welcome (Bandit, me, and a few other cats) you to train and spar with us!

Where do you meet? My kids and some of my close students are itching for friendly play.
I'll spar but you have to talk to me really nice and buy me dinner. Flowers won't hurt the situation either, LOL!

[Lokhopkuen]

Hi Banditshaw,


Re: Fred Lee

http://hungkuenlee.net/index.htm


Re: Vernon Rieta

If the info's right, he teaches adult classes at Koko Head District Park on Tuesdays 7:30 - 8:30 pm in Honolulu. On other days, he teaches kids classes, as well as Tai Chi.

Thanks for the heads up. I saw Fred at Don's event two years ago and i haven't seen Vernon since I was like 30 years old.

[hskwarrior]

San Francisco, is the biggest MECCA of Martial Arts i've seen anywhere. here, there is virtually every style you are looking to learn, and it can be found right here.

SF's chinatown is the largest in the U.S. and it's still growing outside to other districts of the city, therefore becoming Chinatown #1, #2 and #3