Where can I find real kung fu practitioners on youtube?

[Hitman]

Dear all,
I have been looking for kung fu practitioners who could actually use their kung fu when sparring with other people on youtube. I have found a video clip where a capoeira guy fighting a kick boxer. The capoeira guy lost the fight, but I can see capoeira techniques being used in the fight.

However, I have found plenty of kung fu practitioners that fight like kick boxers & boxers, but not many that could actual use their kung fu in sparring matches.

Is it possible for for any one to show me where I can find video clips showing kung fu practitioners actually using their kung fu techniques in sparring matches?





Thank you very much

[golden arhat]

i think the best video on thereis found when you search for "rea chinese martial arts"i'l post it later on today

there are some videos

but the standard and validity of alot of cma (not all!) is pretty cr@p andhas been for the last hundred years, so this is reflected in the amountof videos you see


anothergood search would be for san shoumatches not all the techniques are usedbut alot of the principles are.

[Oso]

wtf is real kung fu supposed to look like? watching too many old Shaw Bros. films?

[Tid Sin]

This is not a new topic. It's been discussed previously on other forums through the years. However, I understand what you're getting at.

A lot of kung fu styles share similar basic punches & kicks so, using them in sparring, they might slightly resemble "kickboxers" but not exactly. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're not using their kung fu techniques; just some of them, and not the ones YOU specifically want to see.

For sport (i.e. sparring matches), there have to be rules to protect the fighters (e.g. no eye gouging; no fish hooking; no strikes to the groin; no strikes to the back of the neck; etc.). That applies not only to competitive kung fu, but to most other competitive martial arts as well (e.g. MMA, MT, TKD, Karate, Boxing, Wrestling, Hockey :eek:).

It seems that you're probably referring to the more exotic-looking, open-handed techniques & acrobatics, somewhat similar to what Oso implied with reference to Shaw Bros-style cinematic kung fu fighting.

Thing is, if fighters start using such techniques (e.g. fu jow, biu jee) to the eyes, throats, groin and other sensitive areas, you'll end up with more blind/deaf/castrated/otherwise maimed participants who won't be able to fight for very long & will have a hard time paying their bills and providing for their families, blah blah blah. Yeah, practice those open-hand techniques, but you're probably best to save the actual applications for street / self-defence situations, not for friendly sport.

You don't need to see someone finger jab someone in the eye or crush someone's larynx in a sparring match in order for you to say that you've finally witnessed someone using their kung fu, and that kung fu actually works, do you?

If so, you should just go to the local mo kwoon and pick a real fight (not a sparring match) with someone there to possibly witness real kung fu first-hand without bothering with those impersonal YouTube clips! lol j/k No, on second thought, don't do that! ;)

G'night...

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

night night

[lkfmdc]

teh deadly is right here fer ya (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt2ZKux3y8)

[taai gihk yahn]

teh deadly is right here fer ya (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt2ZKux3y8)

WTF was that? yeah, really good "defense" against biin / kahp there (although if someone threw kahp with that sort of footwork, maybe it could "work" like that)...total azshattery; where'd you find that silliness?

[lkfmdc]

WTF was that? yeah, really good "defense" against biin / kahp there...total azshattery; where'd you find that silliness?

I **** you not, "hardwork" posted it!

[taai gihk yahn]

I **** you not, "hardwork" posted it!

oh, I see now; "WC essence", eh? gotcha...

[YouKnowWho]

I have been looking for kung fu practitioners who could actually use their kung fu when sparring with other people on youtube.
You can see:

- round kick,
- side kick, and
- outer hook

in this short clip.

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

[lkfmdc]

really good "defense" against biin / kahp there



yup, for that alone it was PRICELESS :D

[taai gihk yahn]

yup, for that alone it was PRICELESS :D

well, again, if you are going to throw the combo that way, you deserve to get hit like that

[Exadon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H5ktPJZlD0

One of Phil's last black sash spars. He also has a few of his forms posted on youtube

[Pork Chop]

teh deadly is right here fer ya (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt2ZKux3y8)

man i hope someone uses that round kick defense against me.... i'll come out looking like apidej or yodsenklai when his forearm snaps.

[Oso]

funny, i think that was the WC school my brother was looking to join a while back...

[Shaolinlueb]

the real kung fu right here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJYQquOavnw)

[GreenCloudCLF]

the real kung fu right here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJYQquOavnw)

The fighter on top should have been DQ'ed for strikes to the back of the head. The way he threw him from the fight area was pretty kewl though!:cool:

[xcakid]

Sanda/Sanshou is Kung Fu

resembles

*gasp*

Kickboxing with throws.

[Shaolinlueb]

Sanda/Sanshou is Kung Fu

resembles

*gasp*

Kickboxing with throws.


!!!!!!!!!!

hahaha

!!!!!!!!!!

[Oso]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H5ktPJZlD0

One of Phil's last black sash spars. He also has a few of his forms posted on youtube

lol, sorry, have to ask: who is phil?

[Water Dragon]

As real as it gets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqzQ2qrtBeg

[Hardwork108]

Dear all,
I have been looking for kung fu practitioners who could actually use their kung fu when sparring with other people on youtube. I have found a video clip where a capoeira guy fighting a kick boxer. The capoeira guy lost the fight, but I can see capoeira techniques being used in the fight.

However, I have found plenty of kung fu practitioners that fight like kick boxers & boxers, but not many that could actual use their kung fu in sparring matches.

Is it possible for any one to show me where I can find video clips showing kung fu practitioners actually using their kung fu techniques in sparring matches?







Thank you very much



Here is some food for thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbIDwdA7Y8&feature=PlayList&p=FF03157BE384C1D1&index=0&playnext=1



Tai Chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVvk52Wbd0


Baji Quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2ZTh0RDLu8


Hsing YI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gwr4v9OmLI&feature=related

Real fights are messy affairs and techniques don't always come out perfectly (kung fu wise) but it is worth noting that only kickboxers fight like kickboxers!

[Hardwork108]

WTF was that? yeah, really good "defense" against biin / kahp there (although if someone threw kahp with that sort of footwork, maybe it could "work" like that)...total azshattery; where'd you find that silliness?

I posted it in a Wing Chun thread. It is not a real fight, it is a demonstration of certain WC ways of dealing with attacks. You may agree with them or not but that is your business.

This thread is about real kung fu sparring/fighting clips. That already excludes you and lkfmdc, proven by the fact that so far you have not contributed anything to it!

So instead of derailing this thread I would suggest that you and lkfmdc take time and perfect your techniques in your chosen MAs of "Tai Chi" and Glorified Kickboxing respectively, before you pass judgment on styles that are not yours.

Thanks in advance.

[lkfmdc]

Here is some food for thought:



says the two year grandmaster :rolleyes:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbIDwdA7Y8&feature=PlayList&p=FF03157BE384C1D1&index=0&playnext=1



Those "no rules fights" had a rule against punching to the head :rolleyes:




Tai Chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVvk52Wbd0


Baji Quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2ZTh0RDLu8


Hsing YI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gwr4v9OmLI&feature=related



Truly you are a MAJOR CLOWN because you just put up FAKE FIGHTS. This has been discussed to death. Those "matches" are choreographed fake fights....:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

This thread is about real kung fu sparring/fighting clips.



says the two year grandmaster who just put up links to FAKE FIGHTS :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Here's an example of real kung fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6e2NVHScA

[lkfmdc]

The following is real kung fu!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq7EdCuAdBs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Ngk0nTWNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jbY6M0iRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKd_NmuP-ww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Wims1nQww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Ngk0nTWNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OehmTahWUOc

enjoy

[GreenCloudCLF]

Here's an example of real kung fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6e2NVHScA

That was a nice transition to the triangle after being taken down.

[taai gihk yahn]

This thread is about real kung fu sparring/fighting clips. That already excludes you and lkfmdc, proven by the fact that so far you have not contributed anything to it!
you posted links to videos of choreographed matches - these have nothing to do with "real" kung fu sparring / fighting either;


before you pass judgment on styles that are not yours.
this logic is erroneous: just because one doesn't "do"a given style, it doesn't mean one can't say anything about it; and it has nothing to do with style anyway: contrived attacks, unsound defense concepts, poor positioning / footwork, and, my personal favorite, unstable stances when doing locks against a compliant opponent are not "hallmarks" of a given style, they are just examples of poor training / methodology


Thanks in advance.
you are very welcome

[Eddie]

The following is real kung fu!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq7EdCuAdBs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Ngk0nTWNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jbY6M0iRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKd_NmuP-ww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Wims1nQww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Ngk0nTWNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OehmTahWUOc

enjoy

how can you call that real kung fu?! They probably didnt spend 20 years developing sticking skill in order to fight like that.

'cides.... really kung fu fighters dont wear boxing gloves :eek:

:rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

here is an example of "real" kung fu, in context of taiji push-hands rule set - the key is what it looks like when you have two people resisting each other; and granted they are limited in that there is no striking;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q__o_5gNX0w&NR=1

actually, there are some very nice examples in this clip of a number of different essential taiji "energies" - listening, sticking, following, dividing, "short" energy, etc.

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhvImB3PmJ4

another example of "real" kung fu; the gal in black is an I Liq Chuan practitioner; ILC is a hakka-based system, they work a great deal on short-range bridging and are about the best I've seen with it; they do a lot of push hands events and do very well; Sifu Sam Chin is 100% TCMA in what he does and how he teaches (he and my sifu are good friends; a lot of how we do pushing is derived from Sifu Chin's influence);

anyway, it's a limited rules set, of course - but notice how when in the clinch, she has an overhook / underhook position? hmmm, looks a lot like other non-TCMA stuff, doesn't it? so, maybe it's less about what "real" kung fu looks like, as opposed to what "real" fighting looks like, in terms of principles and actual usage

[Hardwork108]

says the two year grandmaster :rolleyes:

Even if that was true, then it would put me 2 years ahead of you as regards authentic kung fu training.




Those "no rules fights" had a rule against punching to the head :rolleyes:

Hitman asked for sparring matches where real kung fu was used. He did not have any requirements regarding the rules.




Truly you are a MAJOR CLOWN because you just put up FAKE FIGHTS. This has been discussed to death. Those "matches" are choreographed fake fights....:rolleyes:

You have lied so much recently that I hesitate to believe you on this one. However, even if you are right then it would possibly put these "fake" fights into a sparring category, at least.

By the way, please provide me with links where the clips were discussed as I am genuinely interested.

[lkfmdc]

'cides.... really kung fu fighters dont wear boxing gloves :eek:

:rolleyes:

you're right, here's one without boxing gloves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G39CVdWJJ6I

;)

[lkfmdc]

even if you are right then it would possibly put these "fake" fights into a sparring category, at least.



CLOWN, now fake fights are evidence of skill :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

However, even if you are right then it would possibly put these "fake" fights into a sparring category, at least.
are you kidding? I mean, you can't just tell that those things are fake / choreographed? do you really think that is what it looks like when two people compete and resist each other's moves? and why on earth would you put that into a sparring category, when the entire idea of sparring is that it's not prearranged?

[Hardwork108]

Dear all,
I have been looking for kung fu practitioners who could actually use their kung fu when sparring with other people on youtube. I have found a video clip where a capoeira guy fighting a kick boxer. The capoeira guy lost the fight, but I can see capoeira techniques being used in the fight.

However, I have found plenty of kung fu practitioners that fight like kick boxers & boxers, but not many that could actual use their kung fu in sparring matches.

Is it possible for for any one to show me where I can find video clips showing kung fu practitioners actually using their kung fu techniques in sparring matches?





Thank you very much


Here is another one :) :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related

[Hardwork108]

are you kidding? I mean, you can't just tell that those things are fake / choreographed? do you really think that is what it looks like when two people compete and resist each other's moves? and why on earth would you put that into a sparring category, when the entire idea of sparring is that it's not prearranged?

I thought they had their own strange rules. However, I am not discarding the possibility that they were completely fake and I would actually like to see the discussion regarding these clips.

My first clip was not a fake for sure, so I suppose it is a good place to start for Hitman.

[Hardwork108]

The following is real kung fu!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq7EdCuAdBs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Ngk0nTWNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jbY6M0iRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKd_NmuP-ww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Wims1nQww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Ngk0nTWNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OehmTahWUOc

enjoy

I see that you are still doing your best to promote kickboxing and your own kickboxing business here in the kung fu forum.


Well here is some REAL Sanda:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AcodmyRmNM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzyDCiGkqsE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVfXd07B1hU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icULvZ95mlM&feature=related

[lkfmdc]

are you kidding? I mean, you can't just tell that those things are fake / choreographed? do you really think that is what it looks like when two people compete and resist each other's moves? and why on earth would you put that into a sparring category, when the entire idea of sparring is that it's not prearranged?

recognizing real fights wasn't part of his two year grandmaster crash course :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I'll have to remind my guys who won world titles in San Da that they weren't doing the real stuff :rolleyes:

WHERE ARE YOUR CLIPS "hardwork"?

[Hardwork108]

recognizing real fights wasn't part of his two year grandmaster crash course :rolleyes:

The man asked for sparring clips. I am still waiting for the links where these clips were discussed as I am really interested in seeing the discussions and their basis for the conclusion that the whole thing was fake.

[lkfmdc]

the CLOWN can't even figure out the fights are fake? :rolleyes:

SO WHERE ARE YOUR CLIPS "hardwork"? :rolleyes:

Come on, show us that "real authentic kung fu!" that you do....

[Hardwork108]

I'll have to remind my guys who won world titles in San Da that they weren't doing the real stuff :rolleyes:

You can "remind" them by sending a team of them to China!


WHERE ARE YOUR CLIPS "hardwork"?

Unlike you I am not here to promote myself nor do I own a kickboxing business to promote.

This is a kung fu forum and those of us who practice kung fu are here to discuss it and enhance our knowledge.

We are not going to enhance our knowledge by seeing your kickboxing video clips nor by reading your and your Glorified Kickboxer friends' posts on the so called superiority of the MMA approach.

Thank you for your time.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H5ktPJZlD0

One of Phil's last black sash spars. He also has a few of his forms posted on youtube

after a quick look at this, I noticed this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQF5cLQSU1Q

"Phil" (I assume that is his name?) doing a realy nice Tien Shan Pai set (actually one that a lot of Goh's students used to do, that I always liked)

Goh's clearly a real authentic kung fu teacher, teaching the real stuff... so go back and look at Phil's sparring... it aint Chi Sao! :D

[Hardwork108]

Well if I don't see any links regarding the discussions of these clips being supposedly choreographed (which may or may not have been the case) then I am going to assume that they were not choreographed but were fought under specific rules and conditions.

[lkfmdc]

You can "remind" them by sending a team of them to China!


LMFAO, been there, done that... also beat guys from Brazil, Russia, Romania, Mongolia, Lebannon, Egypt, Korea and Taiwan...

CLOWN :rolleyes:




Unlike you I am not here to promote myself



TRANSLATION - despite talking crap all day long, he doesn't even have the balls to put up a clip of himself because he knows that if he does the entire forum will fall off their seats from laughter

[Exadon]

after a quick look at this, I noticed this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQF5cLQSU1Q

"Phil" (I assume that is his name?) doing a realy nice Tien Shan Pai set (actually one that a lot of Goh's students used to do, that I always liked)



Yes that is his name. He does his forms really well. I hope to be as good as him some day.

Many of the different moves we learn as well are not legal in sparing. Even though I am low rank, our first kick (snap kick) you can't do as it is meant to be a hit to the balls I would say this is one reason why spars look the way they do.

haha I always find it funny how...somehow... most threads turn into Hardwork vrs hehe.

Anyway glad you enjoy his films. As I go up the ranks I may (MAY) be brave enough to post my own videos of me sparing my roommate.

I am at no level to do so now though

[lkfmdc]

Also in my classes they do not allow sweeps in sparing. I would say this is one reason why spars look the way they do.



Sifu Goh has had a ton of guys doing sanshou/sanda (where the sweep is obviously legal). Dana Rucker won an event in Beijing on the Lei Tai. Basic is what works and Goh's have strong basics.

Those who suggest "secrets" or "real stuff" make for fights are CLOWNS (I won't mention Hardwork because you already know who the CLOWN is!)

[Exadon]

Sifu Goh has had a ton of guys doing sanshou/sanda (where the sweep is obviously legal). Dana Rucker won an event in Beijing on the Lei Tai. Basic is what works and Goh's have strong basics.
That is pretty awesome. I wish I was there back in the day.

And I Love Goh's School. Glad to hear so many great stories from(or about) previous students.

[Hardwork108]

LMFAO, been there, done that... also beat guys from Brazil, Russia, Romania, Mongolia, Lebannon, Egypt, Korea and Taiwan...

CLOWN :rolleyes:

Very good can you post us the videos of your guys' performance against a Chinese team. I am not saying that they did not happen because well good kickboxing is good kickboxing, but I would like to see it for myself.




TRANSLATION - despite talking crap all day long, he doesn't even have the balls to put up a clip of himself because he knows that if he does the entire forum will fall off their seats from laughter

No the translation is that I show you for what you are which is a glorified kickboxer here to market your kickboxing gym and hence you attack me in every thread you can doing your best to use lies and ridicule to character assassinate me.

And when that doesn't work you run crying to Gene and complain about me. Yes I can see the size of your "balls"(or is it your fat belly?) from all the way here in Colombia. You poor sad thing.

[lkfmdc]

Are you really in Columbia? I have students there... maybe they can visit you and you can show them your "real authentic kung fu" :rolleyes: Where are you in Columbia, and remember that I have students that will go an check....

[Hardwork108]

haha I always find it funny how...somehow... most threads turn into Hardwork vrs hehe.

Hello Exadon,

If you go back further in the thread then you will see who it was who started this. To see why then read my last post.:)

[Eddie]

I see that you are still doing your best to promote kickboxing and your own kickboxing business here in the kung fu forum.


Well here is some REAL Sanda:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AcodmyRmNM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzyDCiGkqsE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVfXd07B1hU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icULvZ95mlM&feature=related

just curious... in your opinion, what makes Liu Hai Long's style and technique any more 'authentic' than say the other fighters? Is it because he is chinese?

the point is, those san shou matches looks pretty much like all san shou matches looks like.

you also mention sending teams to china to learn more 'authentic' MA. I think you will be dissappointed to know that the fighters in china train pretty much the same way as that lkfmdc said his guys (and allot of other glorified kickboxers all over the world) train.

you should really do yourself a favor and visit HK and China and see how authentic it gets.

[Exadon]

Hello Exadon,

If you go back further in the thread then you will see who it was who started this. To see why then read my last post.:)


haha I am not taking sides. Just pointing out that is was funny. I am not sure why it is always a hardwork vrs all scene. I try to stay out of it.

Forum drama never ends well. Sometimes (from what I hear) it even ends up in a male vrs female street fight!

and a p.s. clearly my opinion never means much...I am asking about horse stances and so on. I am just someone looking for more information. I hope to study many styles of chinese kung fu and wushu.

[lkfmdc]

just curious... in your opinion, what makes Liu Hai Long's style and technique any more 'authentic' than say the other fighters? Is it because he is chinese?



The two obvious answers are
1) he's a troll, looking to troll
and
2) he's an idiot who can't even tell a fake match when he's staring at it

Run over to the wing chun forum where he put up the original retarded clip and see what happened over there, ie OWNED AGAIN!




I think you will be dissappointed to know that the fighters in china train pretty much the same way as that lkfmdc said his guys (and allot of other glorified kickboxers all over the world) train.



Well, considering comments from guys from major national teams like Iran's and Egypt's who have trained with me, many think I train my guys BETTER ;)





you should really do yourself a favor and visit HK and China and see how authentic it gets.



He'd have to leave mom's basement

[Eddie]

Very good can you post us the videos of your guys' performance against a Chinese team. I am not saying that they did not happen because well good kickboxing is good kickboxing, but I would like to see it for myself.

you should look into san shou world cup and world champs fighters from Russia, Iran and even Korea too. Pretty good san shou comming from non Chinese fighters.

I spent two weeks trainign with the Korean guys in Beijing and while their style and fighting approach might be different to the chinese guys, these guys are pretty good too.

Iran's fighter is a demon, and Russia's fighter (Muslim) is the King of San Da. Hes also only around 23/24 years old, so I doubt that I spent 20 years perfecting his authentic style.

[lkfmdc]

haha I am not taking sides. Just pointing out that is was funny. I am not sure why it is always a hardwork vrs all scene.




you noticed that didn't you? that the ENTIRE FORUM finds him a CLOWN :D

[Eddie]

The two obvious answers are
1) he's a troll, looking to troll
and
2) he's an idiot who can't even tell a fake match when he's staring at it

Run over to the wing chun forum where he put up the original retarded clip and see what happened over there, ie OWNED AGAIN!



Well, considering comments from guys from major national teams like Iran's and Egypt's who have trained with me, many think I train my guys BETTER ;)




He'd have to leave mom's basement

I meant no disrespect tho.

I was on a SS trainers course in Wuhan last april with the Egypt national team coaches.

San shou is pretty simple. if you train hard, you should reap the rewards.

The Chinese team is good, but remember a few things ...

1 - they train professionally, doing nothing but training.
2 - there are millions of fighters that ty out, only the TOP few ever make it to become popular. Their pool is bigger, so they get to show only the very few talented fighters. Theer are many talented fighters tho.

the rest well, there are no un realistic claims in China re fighting

[lkfmdc]

2001 World Sanshou 85kg -
1st JAFARI KHORASANI Mohammad Rez (IRAN)

Did you know that year before, in Iran, he lost national championships to Yousef Taghizadeh? But he went to worlds because Yousef defected to the US, and trained with me ;)

I have had three guys from Egypt team training here. One guy from Brazil team, one guy from Romanian team, etc...

No secrets, no BS, just hard work, but many think my training program is even better, and remember that in addition to San Shou/San da we also have champions in Thai boxing and MMA

But I'm not Chinese.....;)

[Eddie]

But I'm not Chinese.....;)

you cant be that good then. everyone knows that unless you're an old homeless chinese sifu, you dont have the real skill :rolleyes:

I bet I can chi sau the living daylights out of you!
:cool:

[Eddie]

JAFARI KHORASANI is the iranian coach now. I shook his hand at the worlds in Beijing. You could see in his eyes that he is a REAl fighter.

Man! there are so many people in this world that i wouldnt want to mess with. Most of them (if not all), probably dont have authentic kung fu and are probably just glorified kickboxers.

[lkfmdc]

just don't go Chris Brown on me :p

[xcakid]

just don't go Chris Brown on me :p

As long as you don't call yourself Rihanna, I don't think you'd need to worry. :D

[Pork Chop]

LMFAO, been there, done that... also beat guys from Brazil, Russia, Romania, Mongolia, Lebannon, Egypt, Korea and Taiwan...


I still remember Rich Acosta versus that Mongolian (the crazy one that fought like 3 times that day)...d@mn, that was a good fight...
Rich was definitely doin his thing...

[Lucas]

Here's an example of real kung fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6e2NVHScA

best post of the thread. if i remember correctly, doesnt charles wilson practice some sort of shaolin kungfu? this is kungfu in mma, as close as real life application of kungfu as your probably going to see on youtube, (not counting sanshou, but i just consider mma to be closer to an actual fight. ill give sanshou without big ol gloves and headgear a close runner up to mma) until more kungfu guys start posting their mma vids.

[Hardwork108]

Are you really in Columbia? I have students there... maybe they can visit you and you can show them your "real authentic kung fu" :rolleyes:

Christ, that is what was missing in the world a Glorified Kickboxing Multinational company.




Where are you in Columbia, and remember that I have students that will go an check....

It is a pity that your students did not teach you to spell the name of their country properly.

[Hardwork108]

just curious... in your opinion, what makes Liu Hai Long's style and technique any more 'authentic' than say the other fighters? Is it because he is chinese?

I find that the Chinese fighters have a more relaxed and more flowing techniques as compared to for example the Japanese Kyokushin guys.

The same is true when I compared them to Ikfmdc's fighters.


the point is, those san shou matches looks pretty much like all san shou matches looks like.
You are right but sometimes the kung fu is more apparent when one looks at certain fighters as opposed to others. Again I am talking about the relaxation and the flow of techniques that are associated with the internal side of kung fu.


you also mention sending teams to china to learn more 'authentic' MA. I think you will be dissappointed to know that the fighters in china train pretty much the same way as that lkfmdc said his guys (and allot of other glorified kickboxers all over the world) train.
I told him to send teams there to fight the San da fighters. However, San da is the kickboxing aspect of kung fu, ie. the ring fighting, but again I generally (not always) see more "flow" from the Chinese fighters.

That does not mean that this aspect will make them win all their fights against other ring fighters, just that this aspect shows the kung fu aspect of their "kickboxing".

[QUOTE=Eddieyou should really do yourself a favor and visit HK and China and see how authentic it gets.[/QUOTE]

Believe me, that is one of my goals in life.:)

[lkfmdc]

My student is 5-1 in MMA fights and would be happy to see your "authentic kung fu?!" so WHERE ARE YOU :rolleyes:

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Before this thread becoming another Hardwork vs other people, let us get back to the real issue - real kung fu.


wtf is real kung fu supposed to look like?
__________________


Imagine that you have spent several years learning German (TCM) and hoping that one day you may go to Germany (martial arts tournment). When you eventually arrive in Germany (tournament), you are expected to use what you have learnt in your class to communicate (fight) with the local German population (competitors). Would you abondon everything you have learnt in your German (TCM) classes and trying to communicate (fight) with other people with your self style sign language (untrained kick boxing/ boxing technques)?
After a lot of confusion, misunderstanding and embrassement, the local German population eventually understand your self style sign language. Would you then go around the world and calling yourself an expert in German language (TCM) and start teaching other people German (TCM), despite the fact that you cannot speak and write a single sentence in German (applying a single technique in a fight)?
The answer is no, because you may be an expert in your own self style sign language (self taught martial arts), but you are definitely not an expert in German (TCM).

TCM practitioners who have spent 4 -20 years training should be able to show some kung fu skills, instead of fighting like amatuer boxers and kick boxers.


This is not an insult. l too had fought like a human punching bag, boxer and kick boxer before I learnt any martial arts. After learning several different martial arts and spent several thousand hours training I still fought like a human punching bag, boxer and kick boxer. Does this not tell you that there is something seriously wrong with my martial arts training?
I can only call myself a wing chun expert after demonstrating to myself that I can apply my wing chun technique in fights. At the moment I am still a beginner in wing chun.





watching too many old Shaw Bros. films?



Judo practitioners fight like how they were trained in judo tournaments.

Wrestlers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.

Boxers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.

Kick boxers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.

Thai boxers fight like how they were trained tournaments.

etc.



If those non TCM practitioners can apply what they have learnt in their classes in tournaments, then you would expect the TCM practitioners to do the same.



There are people who fight like the actors in Shaw Brother's films, but they are very small in number, e.g. the late sifu Wong Sheun Leung & sifu Yip Man.


If you are a real kung fu master then you do not need to hurt your weaker opponent inorder to defeat him, e.g.

Grandsmaster Yip Man defeated Sifu Wong Sheun Leung using wing chun techniques without hurting him.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Kung Fu DOES fight like it is trained, so long as you are not a form fairy.

[Hardwork108]

My student is 5-1 in MMA fights and would be happy to see your "authentic kung fu?!" so WHERE ARE YOU :rolleyes:

The question is where is your student? I mean where the h&ll is columbia? lol.

[Hardwork108]

Dear all,
Before this thread becoming another Hardwork vs other people, let us get back to the real issue - real kung fu.


wtf is real kung fu supposed to look like?
__________________


Imagine that you have spent several years learning German (TCM) and hoping that one day you may go to Germany (martial arts tournment). When you eventually arrive in Germany (tournament), you are expected to use what you have learnt in your class to communicate (fight) with the local German population (competitors). Would you abondon everything you have learnt in your German (TCM) classes and trying to communicate (fight) with other people with your self style sign language (untrained kick boxing/ boxing technques)?
After a lot of confusion, misunderstanding and embrassement, the local German population eventually understand your self style sign language. Would you then go around the world and calling yourself an expert in German language (TCM) and start teaching other people German (TCM), despite the fact that you cannot speak and write a single sentence in German (applying a single technique in a fight)?
The answer is no, because you may be an expert in your own self style sign language (self taught martial arts), but you are definitely not an expert in German (TCM).

TCM practitioners who have spent 4 -20 years training should be able to show some kung fu skills, instead of fighting like amatuer boxers and kick boxers.


This is not an insult. l too had fought like a human punching bag, boxer and kick boxer before I learnt any martial arts. After learning several different martial arts and spent several thousand hours training I still fought like a human punching bag, boxer and kick boxer. Does this not tell you that there is something seriously wrong with my martial arts training?
I can only call myself a wing chun expert after demonstrating to myself that I can apply my wing chun technique in fights. At the moment I am still a beginner in wing chun.





watching too many old Shaw Bros. films?



Judo practitioners fight like how they were trained in judo tournaments.

Wrestlers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.

Boxers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.

Kick boxers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.

Thai boxers fight like how they were trained tournaments.

etc.



If those non TCM practitioners can apply what they have learnt in their classes in tournaments, then you would expect the TCM practitioners to do the same.



There are people who fight like the actors in Shaw Brother's films, but they are very small in number, e.g. the late sifu Wong Sheun Leung & sifu Yip Man.


If you are a real kung fu master then you do not need to hurt your weaker opponent inorder to defeat him, e.g.

Grandsmaster Yip Man defeated Sifu Wong Sheun Leung using wing chun techniques without hurting him.

Thank you!

A very good post.

The reason that we don't see most "kung fu" people fighting kung fu in a way that does not resemble kickboxing, is because kung fu takes longer to gain expertise in than many other MAs. It is profound and not easy to learn (nor to teach, for that matter).

This is not necessarily a good thing if you are looking to win medals in fighting tournaments or if you need to be an effective fighter in a relatively short time (eg, police or military personnel) but if you want to learn an effective and rich martial art that will help you on many levels, then it is the perfect art(s).

The fact is that most people who claim to practice or have practiced kung fu are nothing more than glorified kickboxers. That fact holds true for the majority of "kung fu" exponents who post here as well. You will know that without having to see their YouTube "performances" as everything can be seen clearly from their posts.

HW108:)

[Hardwork108]

Kung Fu DOES fight like it is trained, so long as you are not a form fairy.

Agreed 100%.

[Eddie]

Hardwork,
You are right about the flow thing, but I’m afraid you are generalizing and stereotyping.

At Wuhan Tiyuan the coach, Mr Liao, kept repeating the same thing , fang song, fang li 放松，放力 , which basically means relax, release power. Actually even in CLF we use what thet call “ Relaxed power”, so this is basic to most CMA (I don’t know abut other styles).

The thing is though, I’ve met many Non Chinese guys who can do this better than some Chinese fighters. Not every Chinese student will be able to understand it just because he is Chinese, and just because someone is American doesn’t mean he wont get it either.

But to be honest, this concept is NOT unique to Wushu (Kung Fu or CMA) at all. While I do agree that some styles are much more rigid than others, perhaps its not so wise to generalize about all styles. Wc for example, appears to be less … erm.. flowery than say northern mantis. They are both Chinese.

[taai gihk yahn]

Dear all,
Before this thread becoming another Hardwork vs other people, let us get back to the real issue - real kung fu.
wtf is real kung fu supposed to look like?
it's a very good question; although I would say the real question is what is real fighting supposed to look like?

but for the moment, let me address your analogy:

Imagine that you have spent several years learning German (TCM) and hoping that one day you may go to Germany (martial arts tournment). When you eventually arrive in Germany (tournament), you are expected to use what you have learnt in your class to communicate (fight) with the local German population (competitors). Would you abondon everything you have learnt in your German (TCM) classes and trying to communicate (fight) with other people with your self style sign language (untrained kick boxing/ boxing technques)? etc.
(TCM).
respectfully, I find your analogy is a bit biased in the sense that it doesn't start from a reasonable premise:
if you learn German in a class taught by an actual German native speaker who is off the plane from Berlin and who was trained in how to teach functional German to English speakers, than you will have no problem applying what you learn if you go visit there yourself in 6 months to a year, including contemporary idioms that the local population is using;
OTOH, if the person teaching you German has never even been there, was never trained to teach, and "speaks" German because he has spent his entire academic career translating Goethe, you're going to get off the plane in Berlin and maybe have some idea what's going on reading sign posts, but as soon as you start trying to talk to the locals, you are going to be in trouble, and start fumbling for your Berlitz guide;
first case: functional, realistic approach to MA training (which can include TCMA, if it's relieved of certain aspects); second case: McDojo's, McKwoon's, and sadly a lot of "real/authentic" TCMA as well;
Verstehen? basically, if what you learn is appropriate to your needs, you won't need to switch to something else; if you want to fight, you might want to learn from someone with a little bit of actual experience, regardless of how "deep" the intrinsic nature of their given style is - you don't need to be a classical German scholar to get around Berlin; OTOH, if you want to get into the richness and depth of a classical style, you might be able to do that without ever having been in a street fight or even competed in a tournament; it's really a question of what one wants to do - of course, one might actually find a teacher with both practical fighting experience as well as classical knowledge of a traditional system - they don't preclude each other, but the specific skill sets may vary greatly - meaning that even having studied a "real" system, including forms, so-called "internals", health practices, meditation, calligraphy, etc. etc., you might surprisingly discover that when one "uses" what one learned in actual fighting, it's not going to look all that different in application than what you might see someone who trained boxing use...


TCM practitioners who have spent 4 -20 years training should be able to show some kung fu skills, instead of fighting like amatuer boxers and kick boxers.
FYI, TCM is the abbreviation for Traditional Chinese Medicine - I believe that you mean TCMA (although it's pretty funny when you read it the first way); anyway, your range of 4 - 20 years is huge! quite frankly, if one has trained well and realistically, assuming one has some basic strength, coordination, etc., one should be able to "use" what has been learned to a reasonable degree after ~6 mos. (for someone who is already physically fit, coordinated, aggressive, etc.) to a year (someone who has to develop basic attributes and account for being less innately coordinated and / or has been socialized to be passive, etc.); to take 4 to 20 years to be able to "use" something is not only too large a range, it's too long - I mean, wasn't the whole point of WC initially to teach someone to be able to fight effectively in a very short period of time? regardless of what one believes will be the long-term end results of 30 years training in a "traditional" style, that should not preclude actual fighting skill from occurring as soon as possible, meaning by a most about one year;


This is not an insult. l too had fought like a human punching bag, boxer and kick boxer before I learnt any martial arts. After learning several different martial arts and spent several thousand hours training I still fought like a human punching bag, boxer and kick boxer. Does this not tell you that there is something seriously wrong with my martial arts training?
if you spent thousands of hours fighting like a "human punching bag", implying that you just got hit all the time, sure, something is very wrong; OTOH, if you spent thousands of hours and skillfully and successfully fought "like" a boxer / kickboxer (be it in the ring or the street), then I wouldn't say that you wasted any time, regardless of what you were learning;


I can only call myself a wing chun expert after demonstrating to myself that I can apply my wing chun technique in fights. At the moment I am still a beginner in wing chun.
admirable, but I would suggest that being able to "use" what you learned in a street fight, IMPE, shouldn't be a criteria for "expertise", that rather it is a sign of "proficiency", meaning that you can apply what you hav learnd as a means to a desired end; "expertise" implies full understanding of a topic on a deep level, where one has the ability not only to use it, but also to teach it in its entirety, as well as to modify it and progress it according to one's own experience;


Judo practitioners fight like how they were trained in judo tournaments.
Wrestlers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.
Boxers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.
Kick boxers fight like how they were trained in tournaments.
Thai boxers fight like how they were trained tournaments.
If those non TCM practitioners can apply what they have learnt in their classes in tournaments, then you would expect the TCM practitioners to do the same.
you would, but if you train something totally contrary to instinctual, natural human combat, and have never trained in a live, pressured situation, when you get into a "real" fight, you are going to see lot if not most all of that "training" go out the window real quick; all of the above start from almost day one training in context of how they would actually be using what they learned, and this response is what's going to "kick in" when they are under pressure, and because a large percentage of what they use in competition also has relevance to "thee street", the cross-over isn't so hard: they have trained both context and content in a way that will give them a good chance in a real fight; if they modify their training for "the street" specifically (cross training), they will do even better (e.g. - judo guy learning MT)


There are people who fight like the actors in Shaw Brother's films, but they are very small in number, e.g. the late sifu Wong Sheun Leung & sifu Yip Man.
my first TCMA sifu (Chan Tai San) never looked like a Shaw brothers movie when he was teaching fighting, and he was somewhat well regarded within the TCMA community...


If you are a real kung fu master then you do not need to hurt your weaker opponent in order to defeat him, e.g.
more a contrivance based on Chinese cultural notions of what a "master" is supposed to be capable of; c.f. Confuscian "superior man" and all that; look, fact is that if there is a significant difference in skill, this can certainly happen; the closer two people are in skill (assuming that all other attributes are equal), the more difficult this is; see, it's very solipsistic: what is a hallmark of a TCMA master? he can defeat his opponents without hurting them; why can he defeat his opponents without hurting them? because he is a master; no analysis of approach, circumstances, cultural baggage, etc.


Grandsmaster Yip Man defeated Sifu Wong Sheun Leung using wing chun techniques without hurting him.
so you have heard; all stories of this nature should be taken with a large grain of salt; although, if you have two people doing the same system under the same cultural constraints, then it is certainly more plausible that this could occur, given that if you know what someone else knows and are better at it, it is much easier to anticipate them and shut them down (indeed, the "looser" would be conditioned to "know" when he was beat as well, so you need to consider that); OTOH, if a western boxer came along, while the TCMA guy might still win, the ability to do so without hurting him would be much less, if not non-existent

my belief is that successful fighting looks pretty much the same across the board, with, of course, some variation; it's about being fit / conditioned to start, then training high-percentage content in a context-appropriate manner; all the other stuff is largely irrelevant - there are no shortcuts, no "secret" techniques per se, and skill can be acquired in a reasonably short period of time; of course, refinement of skill can continue for decades, and there are certain skill-sets that will take longer (e.g. - listening, sticking, etc.), although not decades if you are training correctly;

[TenTigers]

TaaiGihkYan:
"there are no shortcuts, no "secret" techniques per se, and skill can be acquired in a reasonably short period of time; of course, refinement of skill can continue for decades, and there are certain skill-sets that will take longer (e.g. - listening, sticking, etc.), although not decades if you are training correctly;"

well said.

[Oso]

Hitman: my questions were rhetorical, btw. :)

[Hitman]

"Taai Gihk Yan:

respectfully, I find your analogy is a bit biased in the sense that it doesn't start from a reasonable premise:
if you learn German in a class taught by an actual German native speaker who is off the plane from Berlin and who was trained in how to teach functional German to English speakers, than you will have no problem applying what you learn if you go visit there yourself in 6 months to a year, including contemporary idioms that the local population is using;
OTOH, if the person teaching you German has never even been there, was never trained to teach, and "speaks" German because he has spent his entire academic career translating Goethe, you're going to get off the plane in Berlin and maybe have some idea what's going on reading sign posts, but as soon as you start trying to talk to the locals, you are going to be in trouble, and start fumbling for your Berlitz guide;
first case: functional, realistic approach to MA training (which can include TCMA, if it's relieved of certain aspects); second case: McDojo's, McKwoon's, and sadly a lot of "real/authentic" TCMA as well;"


I used the German language as an example. Since I do not know how the German education system worked both inside and outside Germany, I will use the English education system in UK to answer your question. Am I correct to assume that you have never heard the following stories about some of the native English speaking students in UK?

1. They failed to pass their English examines.
2. Students leaving schools without obtained any qualifications. I used to know two women who left schools at the age of 16, without taking their examines.
3. Students failed to pass any of their examines. I used to know one person who had failed all his examines in school.
4. Some of the native English speaking students leaving schools at the age of 16, who could barely read and write. They were taught by qualified native English speaking teachers and surrounded by English speaking people everyday. They were considered by people to be illiterate and could only found low paid jobs. I used to know two native English speaking people in a good English secondary school, who you could almost considered to be illiterate.
5. I used to know 4 people from Hong Kong & Pakistan who had attended good secondary schools in UK for 3 – 5 years, but could not speak, write and read English properly. They were taught by qualified native English speaking teachers. They can also be regarded as illiterate.

This was before the government changed the education system to make the students’ examination results look better. Those high grades may look good on paper, but the actual quality of the students remained unchanged.
No state run schools in UK would hire any totally professional incomplete teachers to teach people English. You would at least expect those qualified teachers to be able to speak, read, write and teach English to their students. Otherwise, they would be sacked.

6. There was a court case in America years ago about a son suing his own father, because he could not read and write English. He blamed his father for destroying his ability to read and write English.



"FYI, TCM is the abbreviation for Traditional Chinese Medicine - I believe that you mean TCMA (although it's pretty funny when you read it the first way); anyway, your range of 4 - 20 years is huge! quite frankly, if one has trained well and realistically, assuming one has some basic strength, coordination, etc., one should be able to "use" what has been learned to a reasonable degree after ~6 mos. (for someone who is already physically fit, coordinated, aggressive, etc.) to a year (someone who has to develop basic attributes and account for being less innately coordinated and / or has been socialized to be passive, etc.); to take 4 to 20 years to be able to "use" something is not only too large a range, it's too long - I mean, wasn't the whole point of WC initially to teach someone to be able to fight effectively in a very short period of time? regardless of what one believes will be the long-term end results of 30 years training in a "traditional" style, that should not preclude actual fighting skill from occurring as soon as possible, meaning by a most about one year;"

You may not have met any Kung fu instructors and students who cannot fight, despite the fact they have spent 4 -20 years training, but I have met them. Yes, if you have trained properly, then you should be able to fight within one year.

According to Sifu Duncan Leung, he spent 5-7 hours a day training and fighting other people. It took him 4 & ½ years (at least 8190 hours) to learn the whole wing chun system and be able to use it in fights.
He told us in one of the threads on his own web site that if an average student who only attend 3 * 2 hours of classes per week and did not trained at home. It would take him/ her a life time to master wing chun. He means achieving the same standard as him. I worked out that it would take an average person at least 26.25 years (8190 hours) to reach the same standard as him. However, you can learnt all the wing chun forms from books and DVD in less than 2 months, but whether you can fight with them is a different issue.



Sifu Wong Sheun Leung fought Sifu Yip Man after defeating two of Sifu Yip Man’s junior students on the first day they met. He did not know anything about wing chun at the time.


"he can defeat his opponents without hurting them; why can he defeat his opponents without hurting them? because he is a master; no analysis of approach, circumstances, cultural baggage, etc."

Real master - fact or fiction
Miyamoto Musashi, author of the book “The book of the Five Rings” is regarded as a sword saint in Japan. According to a martial arts book I read, nearly all the Japanese swordsmen who saw his self style portrait (holding two swords in his hands) admitted that they did not know how to attack him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

Please ask the Japanese martial arts masters for their opinions about Miyamoto Musashi.

[golden arhat]

Well here is some REAL Sanda:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AcodmyRmNM&feature=related



lol its only real cos teh chinese guy was doing well....i didnt see any bow stances or chi sau or anything that looks "traditional or authentic" by your standards anyway

beautiful footage and definitley real chinese martial arts but definitley not authentic or real as far as you should be concerned

you just like it cos the chinese guy was against a kyokushin guy and the guys fighting a bit unorthodox, nothing to say thats kung fu that could just be him