another thought on the decline of TMA

[Oso]

maybe...we'll see what ya'll think...got to be quick as I just thought of this but need to get to work.

*****

In all my years of training (not as much as a few here but I've been at it almost 27 years now) I can not ever recall once feeling 'bad' because I got corrected or told that what I was doing was 'wrong' or simply that I looked like crap while attempting to execute or perform some feat of martial skill. My first teacher and my wrestling coach were 'old school' I guess and there was never any BS attempt to raise my self esteem...it was all about the work and results from the work...if the results sucked, then you just effing worked harder.

I think the PC crap of building people's self esteem is a major part of the decline of (i'll say it) REAL martial training and skill derived from that training.

Why has the MMA venue and method of training been able to tap into this and thrive from it whereas so called TMA has fallen behind?

*****
Caveat: the above was put down quick, so I retain the option of trying to reword what I'm saying later...let's hear it for plausible deniability!!! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is a teacher/coaches perogative, his duty really, to chastise.
I remember the "**** that sucked" and the "you been getting laid too much, your power is gone" and the "maybe its time to take up sewing since you can't fight", from my various coaches and teachers :D
And those were the NICE things !
All of them motivated me to do better and go beyond what I thought was "good".
Of course, if a teacher didn't care, he wouldn't say anything to you at all, or maybe something like "keep up the good work".
:p

[David Jamieson]

THere's a lot to be said for nuturing vs admonishment.

I think the problem is with the individual practitioners.
If a person doesn't want to put in the effort, they won't.
It's that simple really.

You can inspire, but ultimately, it is up to the person themselves to do the work.
It's not just tma, there's millions of people involved in all martial arts and only a few rise to the top because they want to do the work.

There's plenty of lame wrestlers, boxers, mma-ists etc etc etc etc out there who can't fight worth peanuts.

Every gym is loaded with people who crowd in there to be seen as opposed to "do".
In fact, I would say the majority of any martial art or endeavour is this way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

THere's a lot to be said for nuturing vs admonishment.

I think the problem is with the individual practitioners.
If a person doesn't want to put in the effort, they won't.
It's that simple really.

You can inspire, but ultimately, it is up to the person themselves to do the work.
It's not just tma, there's millions of people involved in all martial arts and only a few rise to the top because they want to do the work.

There's plenty of lame wrestlers, boxers, mma-ists etc etc etc etc out there who can't fight worth peanuts.

Every gym is loaded with people who crowd in there to be seen as opposed to "do".
In fact, I would say the majority of any martial art or endeavour is this way.

Its funny, one of the sure ways to spot those that are dedicated to their MA is NOT by how many classes they take, but what they do SOLO.

[David Jamieson]

Its funny, one of the sure ways to spot those that are dedicated to their MA is NOT by how many classes they take, but what they do SOLO.


true enough. who is standing around waiting to be seen before doing anything, and who is working away warts and all on it.

it's not hard to spot the posers vs the workers.

It is harder to inspire posers though because they don't really want it to begin with, they are merely looking for some way to feed their ego without making payment in kind. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would think that you get a lot less "posers" and "wannabes' in MMA and sport combat systems than in TMA, simply because of the nature of the training.

[David Jamieson]

I would think that you get a lot less "posers" and "wannabes' in MMA and sport combat systems than in TMA, simply because of the nature of the training.

you'd be surprised. lol.

Having visited and worked at a few gyms, there are a lot of people who sign up to be seen and don't actually ever do anything or go anywhere or train in the proper fashion in order to achieve.

Like anywhere else.

But, it is these people that keep the lights on and the doors open, so it's inevitable.

Ultimately, in any club you will have a small crop at teh top who are supported by the dross below. It's up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to be top or simply filling space and paying bills.

mma gyms certainly aren't brimming with elite fighters lol. Like I say, maybe a half dozen or so at the top with most clubs and the rest of the student body just showing up for the workout, never really mixing it up etc etc.

there are of course some exceptions, but the ratios are more or less the same across the board.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you'd be surprised. lol.

Having visited and worked at a few gyms, there are a lot of people who sign up to be seen and don't actually ever do anything or go anywhere or train in the proper fashion in order to achieve.

Like anywhere else.

But, it is these people that keep the lights on and the doors open, so it's inevitable.

Ultimately, in any club you will have a small crop at teh top who are supported by the dross below. It's up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to be top or simply filling space and paying bills.

mma gyms certainly aren't brimming with elite fighters lol. Like I say, maybe a half dozen or so at the top with most clubs and the rest of the student body just showing up for the workout, never really mixing it up etc etc.

there are of course some exceptions, but the ratios are more or less the same across the board.

really?
I need to get out more...

[Oso]

i agree with most of what both of you say...still not a lot of time to type but...

Don't get me wrong, I've have worked with a lot of people that just didn't have 'it' but as long as they were willing to work and didn't get all whiny if they didn't get praised every second then I did my best to coach them. If they needed a **** ton of emotional handholding just so they would train then they really needed to be sitting in a shrink's office instead.

[David Jamieson]

really?
I need to get out more...

dude, we could make a weekend roadtrip of first lesson free stuff and you can see for yourself what I'm talking about.

there are equally as many lamo mma type gyms as there are lamo tma gyms.

the whole "we work harder and train better" stuff is a myth propagated by armchair chokers really.

some kungfu schools have people working their butts off and some mma schools are lounges for wannabes.

some of the best mma guys are found in yoga classes! lol
and many real fighters will seek out an edge from anywhere they can get it, even if it means having to learn a form or two. :)

[Taryn P.]

I really thrive on positive feedback... it inspires me to work even harder. One of my teachers will say, "You've been practicing that," and it feels so good, because that means it's gotten visibly better.

Often what he'll do is have us work faulty techniques on each other, so that we can *SEE* and *FEEL* that it doesn't work that way, and we have to figure out for ourselves what's wrong with it. That's been even more helpful than being told, because eventually you learn to reason such things out for yourself.

I had one teacher a long time ago who didn't give much verbal feedback or correction, but if your stance was bad he'd walk over and knock you over to demonstrate why- or punch at you to show that you needed to move your guard hand.

They don't have to berate me or put me down.... that's not helpful, and just makes me feel like crap and more self-conscious. But I don't like it if I'm not getting any constructive feedback. As long as they get the message across that I'm doing X wrong and need to change it.

If I never get any positive feedback, I start to question whether I'm making any progress at all.

[WinterPalm]

I train in an MMA gym. One of the guys in my class slacks big time...I make no bones about screaming at him. Personally, I care that he works hard, not that he is great or skilled...just that he listens to me and tries his best to get better. I'll let guys know when they are slacking and need to smarten up.

In the other classes, especially the BJJ and Sambo classes, there are quite a few wannabes. And I don't mean people who want to be martial artists for real, but people who want to wear the shirt and say they train here and here.
Personally, if it gets people in the door, fine. After awhile, you will learn something...I think that is a big difference between what MMA type training and phoney-baloney TMA training does: you actually have to learn at least something if not just how to defend when you are rolling every day and actually practicing real fighting skill.

Like Ross always says, it's all about the randori that makes people grow as martial artists.

Didn't Bas Rutten say that a champion is one that sweats when no one is looking. Lord knows I've had my worst VO2 max kettlebell workouts by myself...pure agony! But I'm no champ...just have a good work ethic.:cool:

[Pork Chop]

Didn't Bas Rutten say that a champion is one that sweats when no one is looking. Lord knows I've had my worst VO2 max kettlebell workouts by myself...pure agony! But I'm no champ...just have a good work ethic.:cool:

For some reason Rick Ross' "Hustlin'" started playin in my head reading that....
Everyday I'm Hustlin'...

[Reverend Tap]

I generally get the most benefit out of passive positive reinforcement; when we're all working on something in class and sifu's walking down the line making corrections, the thing that honestly gets me fired up more than anything else is when he will, on occasion, come to me, watch my technique, and then just nod to himself and move on to the next student. I've had teachers who'll praise you up and down for doing something right, but that just feels phony; they should be expecting us to get it right (within a reasonable timespan), not treating it like we're young children just learning how to tie our shoes (exceptions, of course, to be made if you're teaching young children ;) ).

Strikes me as rather similar to how most new students, particularly when sparring against women, need to be frequently reminded that you aren't doing your opponent any favors, in class or in a potential street altercation, by holding back and pulling your punches. Kindness now is cruelty later.

[MasterKiller]

I generally get the most benefit out of passive positive reinforcement; when we're all working on something in class and sifu's walking down the line making corrections, the thing that honestly gets me fired up more than anything else is when he will, on occasion, come to me, watch my technique, and then just nod to himself and move on to the next student. I've had teachers who'll praise you up and down for doing something right, but that just feels phony; they should be expecting us to get it right (within a reasonable timespan), not treating it like we're young children just learning how to tie our shoes (exceptions, of course, to be made if you're teaching young children ;) ).. The beauty of sport training is that you don't need a teacher to tell you that you did it right. Positive reinforcement comes from correctly applied technique under duress.

[YouKnowWho]

The beauty of sport training is that you don't need a teacher to tell you that you did it right. Positive reinforcement comes from correctly applied technique under duress.
Sometime when your teacher says you are doing wrong, he may say that you are doing right later if you can provide positive result. One teacher didn't like his student's "grip ability" and commented that it's too conservative and not aggressive enough. After that teacher watched so many tournament matches and when his student got a grip hold on his opponent, not even a single person could break his student's grip, The teacher started to changed his attitude. One day someone mentioned a well known CMA master's great ability in front of that teacher, that teacher said with proudly voice, "Great ability? Just let my student to get a grip on him and see if he can even move." After that day, that student knew that his teacher's attitude toward his "grip ability" had changed forever.

[taai gihk yahn]

I think if you know that the person critiquing you genuinely cares about your progress, then you basically give them the benefit of the doubt; for example, about 5 years into my time training with him, my taiji teacher stopped what we were doing in the middle of a private, looked at me, shook his head and said straight out,"you have absolutely no idea what taiji is about"; and he meant it - there was no attempt to soften the comment, just silence; I tell, you I felt like jumping out the window for a moment - but this was a guy who had supported me 100% since the day I showed up on his doorstep, so instead, I just said, "ok"; basically it was a turning point - being able to drop the ego once and for all, it afforded me an opportunity to drop everything that I had been carrying and start anew, so to speak; so in this case, the "old school" approach was the right one (he's got ~100 students; he only talks that way to maybe 5 or 6 of us, as far as I can tell...)

[Oso]

note: i'm not at all demeaning the girl in this story...she had a lot of energy and excitement about what she was doing. hopefully she can learn enough to move her on to something where she might actually gain some skill

...i blame the instructor for not correcting enough and not really running a class with safety in mind. i think this story is an example of only focusing on making something fun w/o enough emphasis on technique or safety and not letting a student progress until they have gotten the basics and/or know how to train safely and effectively

*********

so, we're finishing up class last night and it's just me and my two most senior students training

...this old guy comes down...he's been with the gym since I was first there back in 2001 and we know each other by sight...i've known that he did some boxing in his time and he was going to hit the bags for a bit...we nod at each other and he goes about his business...he's a retired prison guard, probably in his mid-60's easily but I see him in the gym all the time ...he's doing his maintenance work.

then, this early 20's girl comes down stairs and starts watching and then asks if it will be ok if she hits the bags and I say 'sure!'.

she actually does wrap her hands...don't know how well but they looked snug and goes over to one of the 100# bags and just immediately starts blitzing on it...at first sound I was like 'whoa' so i move where i can watch her while still coaching my folks.

omfg...totally un-skilled wailing on the bag...and she was kicking, sorta. it was supposed to be a round kick but she wasn't pivoting her foot at all so was really hitting like an inside crescent but not right for that either...her punches were all over the place and her thumbs were sticking out on every punch. as with most people who come down to hit the bags, she goes all out for 15 seconds or so and stops for a minute, then goes at it again all hard.

the old guy has stopped working and is just standing there looking at her with his head ****ed to the side and sorta shaking his head. he asks her 'why are you dropping your hands when you kick?' and I have a hard time not laughing but keep a straight face as she says she knows she's supposed to keep them up but just can't...and goes on to talk about how she's taking the 'boxing' class that this guy is teaching two nights a week at the gym and how they just started kicking a couple of weeks ago...and goes back to wailing on the bag.

we finish up a few minutes later and are sorta talking about her and my guys start laughing while i continue watching her... i hush them and watch her for a few more minutes and then walk over and ask her if she minds if I show her a few things...she say ok, she hasn't really been doing it that long....i ask her how long and she says about 4 weeks. so, i talk to her about pivoting her foot on the round kick...point out that some people turn the planted fool first and others turn with the leg extension but that it's important to turn the base foot both with and after the kick to open the hip up; how she really needs to tuck her thumbs in and such. i recommended slowing down a bit and keeping her work to combinations of the things she knew (jab/cross, jab/cross/kick...whatever) and to work in those combinations and reset and do it again, focusing (at her early stage of things) with technique and not so much with all out speed and power yet...

she just kept talking about how fun it was and she was really pumped about doing it...i agreed it was fun and it was great that she was training but to try and focus on technique or she was going to hurt herself...especially as a lightweight female newb on a 100# bag. I also invited her to our saturday san shou class.

i also ended up talking to the old guy about the class, he wants to check it out.

since this boxing class has started about 8 months ago i have watched many people from that class work on their own...bluntly, they all suck...even the few people i've seen stick with it for several months don't get better...it's basically a glorified cardio boxing class that i'm hearing is going to start sparring soon :eek:

[AdrianK]

there are equally as many lamo mma type gyms as there are lamo tma gyms.

No, there aren't.


Picture of Random MMA Gym Class (http://www.txmma.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/Schools/teampound/gracie_019.jpg)


Picture of Random CMA Class (http://www.shaolinarizona.com/Images/Events/Gallery/yinyangdagger_012(2).jpg)


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'nuff said.