Throw Training for San Shou

[WinterPalm]

What sorts of drills do you guys use?

I find personally I have much more success, within limited competition time limits, of shooting singles or doubles, but I am familiar with a variety of throws from the clinch but usually I work more time to set them up and execute them. In competition I'm looking at 3 seconds or so to execute a throw.

What sort of drills do you guys use to execute throws on the fly?

One I use is to have one guy throw random punches, and you shield and then clinch and a third guy counts the 3 seconds while you both work for a throw. You can also have only one guy able to throw and the other just defends...or one guy is the uki and gets tossed every time.

Any ideas or things that have worked for you guys?

[SimonM]

I wrestle and see what works. :p

Generally I find that people expect leg picks. If you can lead them a bit off balance feinting for the pick and then pop a hip-toss the opposite direction you can often get really good results.

[David Jamieson]

set up 2 or 3 drills of high % scenarios and drill the crap out of them.

singles and double aside, a quick hip toss is a good thing to drill.

[SimonM]

It really is.

Seriously, a fast-executed hip toss can throw (no pun intended) a lot of guys who are expecting the ubiquitous double and single leg picks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of my fav drillls is to choose a throw, any throw, and drill that living crap out of it !!
Dill it off the clinch, off a kick, off a punch, on the attack, on the defense, just do that 1 throw VS anythign and everything you can think of.
It will not only show you the in's and out's of the throw and all the counters that it can face but that throw will almost be guaranteed to show up in your next match/sparring session.

[David Jamieson]

I dig a well executed hip toss. It's one of the most immediatley perceivable zen things in martial arts when executed correctly.

-clinch, pull, turn and throw.
-shuffle, hook and bump, turn and throw.

and really work on your bump and getting the guy lifted and rolling off your hip as opposed to moving unsteady and tossing him off your thigh or lower down the leg more like a trip.

it takes effort to get the timing and positioning correct and well understood.

I would also look at doing it from clinch, from an under hook single or double and an overhook single or double.

Forcing over the hip takes away total footing on your opponent.
Going too low on the leg allows him a chance at recovery while you are in a vulnerable position. Although you can use that from a facing position.

[WinterPalm]

One of my fav drillls is to choose a throw, any throw, and drill that living crap out of it !!
Dill it off the clinch, off a kick, off a punch, on the attack, on the defense, just do that 1 throw VS anythign and everything you can think of.
It will not only show you the in's and out's of the throw and all the counters that it can face but that throw will almost be guaranteed to show up in your next match/sparring session.

This is the sort of thing I was looking for...thank you!

I am familiar with a ton of throws and sweeps. I can execute them in sparring but usually not if there is a timed clinch...sometimes I can, most of the time, not.
I suppose just drilling one throw to pieces is the way to go.

[Oso]

The following moves will work well in San Shou situation:

- leg sweep
- knee seize
- waist control
- bear hug
- head lock
- over hook
- under hook
- inner hook
- outer hook

Here is an example that "bear hug + outer hook" used in San Shou

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

i was just going to say something like that bear hug and outer hook...but, you have to stay up for the score.


from the classic collar and elbow, I like to use my head pressed against theirs, pinching it between my head and my collar arm, and then circle to the same side until I have the head/shoulder bent enough that they are off ballance and then hit the outer hook

[Eddie]

With san shou, the actually throw is usually the easy part. The difficult part is the grab (come in grab and set up). You should spend more time training this.

In China the san shou guys spend allot of time training this. It becomes second nature. If you kick, they grab, if you punch they duck and grab.

Not saying the actual wrestling is not important either … they also spent allot of time on this. Actually … I have some videos I took in class (the girls class – they don’t want me to film the other group). I can post it online some time.

[Oso]

by all means....please do post the women's san shou clips... :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the sort of thing I was looking for...thank you!

I am familiar with a ton of throws and sweeps. I can execute them in sparring but usually not if there is a timed clinch...sometimes I can, most of the time, not.
I suppose just drilling one throw to pieces is the way to go.

Typically you will see the "same" throws in any MA competition, certainly they will vary with the rules, but in a "nutshell" it will always be the same ones, the ones you learned in the first couple of years of training.
The simple, high % ones that are based on minimal complexities and gross motor skills.

[MightyB]

I've never done this but I've always wanted to do a Judo Randori session with 16 ounce boxing gloves on and no gi. Personally I want to see and feel how that effects my Judo training.

I think a couple of weeks of you doing something like that with a good partner would really help your San Show throws. Try wrestling for takedowns with the gloves on if you don't know Judo or SC.

[WinterPalm]

I've never done this but I've always wanted to do a Judo Randori session with 16 ounce boxing gloves on and no gi. Personally I want to see and feel how that effects my Judo training.

I think a couple of weeks of you doing something like that with a good partner would really help your San Show throws. Try wrestling for takedowns with the gloves on if you don't know Judo or SC.

We do this usually at least once a week! It's great practice.

My main concern is the quick throwing...but I'm working on it.

[Oso]

i think there is an overemphasis on quick throwing...3-5 seconds is difficult to achieve in any venue...I think a 15 second time limit could be used effectively.

[YouKnowWho]

i think there is an overemphasis on quick throwing...3-5 seconds is difficult to achieve in any venue...I think a 15 second time limit could be used effectively.
The true fast hand throw only need 1 second but there are not that many moves that you can do with that kind of speed. You can use your shoulder to strike on your opponent's chest to force his leading leg to come off the ground. You get hold on that leg and at the same time you hook his back leg off the ground then you can have a beautiful 1 second throw. The problem is the falling will be so hard that no one want to practice with you on that move.


quick throwing..
One suggestion:

- Step 45 degree to your left.
- Grab one hand under his leading leg behind the knee.
- Use another hand to push on his neck, and
- Run him down.

[WinterPalm]

The speed thing does suck sort of...I'm not that much a fan, I prefer pressure fighting in the clinch, but you can't do that because of time. But I do like the athleticism required for good San Shou...some of the throws from crazy angles boggle my mind.:eek:

[Oso]

The true fast hand throw only need 1 second but there are not that many moves that you can do with that kind of speed. You can use your shoulder to strike on your opponent's chest to force his leading leg to come off the ground. You get hold on that leg and at the same time you hook his back leg off the ground then you can have a beautiful 1 second throw. The problem is the falling will be so hard that no one want to practice with you on that move.

well, yea, many throws can be done quick in practice but when you have an opponent of reasonably comparable skill...you can get stuffed a lot.

i mean, think about it: don't the best old legends of kung fu masters speak of multi-day-long events that ended in ties? ;)

i'm not saying they are impossible but 3-5 is tough to do and all the stoppages makes for a boring fight to watch.

[YouKnowWho]

When 2 true masters fight, it can be very boring. It's more fun to watch an experienced guy matches with a beginner. The true fast hand throwing do exist in the 2nd situation.

[Oso]

well, yes, but where is the challenge in that?