I think forms suck

[Violent Designs]

They don't teach you any realistic fightin applications obviously.

So why are we wasting our times doing them. :D

Form suck!

/thread

[WinterPalm]

Good question.

Some forms offer benefits for the body in the form of different chi gongs...but you're better off drilling individual movements, sequencing them together, and free fighting then spending a lot of time on forms.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight.

[Holle]

I'm not sure if this thread was meant as a jest, but here is just my opinion on forms and what has worked for me. :)

Actually forms serve as very useful purposes through it's repetition of movements in sequences.
1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.

When executing your forms at a slower pace, treating it like an isometric exercise, you can learn to develop your slow twitch muscles and internal strength. As you're able to build up your strength through your Gung Fu movements, you can increase the effectiveness of the movements; the development of your strength and Gung Fu will only complement each other.

2) Perfecting natural flow and mechanics. The repetition of movements in sequences allows the practitioner to build up "muscle memory" ,or the strengthening of neuron connections and activation. This muscle memory allows a practitioner to increase their strength and to smoothen their movements and transitions between movements.

Repetition of movements also allows someone to perfect their mechanics. A slight rotation of the arm here and a slight change in weight shift can make a big difference between power and weakness.

You can develop some of these things through free fighting and fighting applications, but in my opinion the process would take longer. When you're free fighting and doing fighting applications, you're focused more your opponent and what to do to your opponent than on your own body mechanics. Also when you're free fighting or doing fighting applications, you are not able to set a constant pace, but must adjust to your opponents pace.

Just as forms has it's place, so does free fighting and fighting applications. Free fighting and fighting applications help to bring out the practical uses of martial arts and acts as a gauge of one's strength and mechanics. Nothing is more real than fighting and making contact with a human body. Fighting allows someone to practice adjusting their movements, pace, and strength to adapt to someone else. Also fighting allows someone to see if their mechanics are effective when used against an opponent.

Even though no one wants to hear this, nothing comes easy; you need to practice constantly for years. If all you want to do is do forms and look pretty, then that's fine, but unrealistic. If all you want to do is fight, then that's fine too, but you'll be missing out on the original purpose of Gung Fu. Just like the ying and the yang, you need to have a balance of everything. :)

[Violent Designs]

I'm not sure if this thread was meant as a jest, but here is just my opinion on forms and what has worked for me. :)

Mostly in jest, but party serious. Despite my dislike for forms I still practice them as well, mostly for cardio and archival purposes. :)


Actually forms serve as very useful purposes through it's repetition of movements in sequences.
1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.

However I think those techniques are best practiced taken out, made into 2, 3, and 4-combo drills. You can drill these without resistance (shadowboxing), with pads, with a bag, with a tree, with a . . . whatever you come up with (creativity is key here !)


When executing your forms at a slower pace, treating it like an isometric exercise, you can learn to develop your slow twitch muscles and internal strength. As you're able to build up your strength through your Gung Fu movements, you can increase the effectiveness of the movements; the development of your strength and Gung Fu will only complement each other.

I don't know about the twitch muscles. I guess it depends on your system, right? As in Southern Mantis would be more in line with developing your "twitch" muscles and Choy Lay Fut would more or less work out your whipping power . . .

On this note, I have placed forms into two categories: the first, are the showy, flashy, fast forms. I'm a CLF man and has always been, but CLF forms are for the most part, great for cardio, not so great for building power. However I can run or skip the rope as well.

Stuff like Hung Ga Kuen and SPM allows you to practice everything in a slow, grueling, tiresome fashion. Endless amounts of dynamic tension coupled, and you can go even further by adding weights to the body, arms, and legs. Once again, how hard you push yourself is up to the individual. As such, I see more VALUE in these "types" of forms, where the exercises themselves are there for MORE than just techniques, or patterns - they are designed to build your root, foundation, and structure more than anything. You may even get a bit of power and explosiveness out of them, although this may not be much (compared to say hitting bags and stuff).


2) Perfecting natural flow and mechanics. The repetition of movements in sequences allows the practitioner to build up "muscle memory" ,or the strengthening of neuron connections and activation. This muscle memory allows a practitioner to increase their strength and to smoothen their movements and transitions between movements.

I agree with you to an extent. It depends on the system. Choy Lay Fut for example is too right-hand biased for me. I practice almost all of my forms reversed now, based on left-hand bias instead of right. I'm a fanatic with balance . . . ambidexterity, that's just my thing anyway. All the Hung Ga I'm doing so far focuses on the right and left equally.


Repetition of movements also allows someone to perfect their mechanics. A slight rotation of the arm here and a slight change in weight shift can make a big difference between power and weakness.

Absolutely agreed with you. But hitting things is BETTER for perfecting fighting and power generating mechanics because you get FEEDBACK. You don't get feedback from punching the air.


You can develop some of these things through free fighting and fighting applications, but in my opinion the process would take longer. When you're free fighting and doing fighting applications, you're focused more your opponent and what to do to your opponent than on your own body mechanics. Also when you're free fighting or doing fighting applications, you are not able to set a constant pace, but must adjust to your opponents pace.


A good martial artists shouldn't be looking to spar every single time. Sometimes it's better to settle down, re-examine what you know, and look to refine things. Also most of the "sparring" done in your own gym or school shouldn't be full contact. That's what you reserve for your enemies and rivals. :)


Just as forms has it's place, so does free fighting and fighting applications. Free fighting and fighting applications help to bring out the practical uses of martial arts and acts as a gauge of one's strength and mechanics. Nothing is more real than fighting and making contact with a human body. Fighting allows someone to practice adjusting their movements, pace, and strength to adapt to someone else. Also fighting allows someone to see if their mechanics are effective when used against an opponent.

Yep yep.


Even though no one wants to hear this, nothing comes easy; you need to practice constantly for years. If all you want to do is do forms and look pretty, then that's fine, but unrealistic. If all you want to do is fight, then that's fine too, but you'll be missing out on the original purpose of Gung Fu. Just like the ying and the yang, you need to have a balance of everything. :)

Cool we agree on most things I just pointed out some things I might differ with slightly but I do like your style.

Peace

[Holle]

However I think those techniques are best practiced taken out, made into 2, 3, and 4-combo drills. You can drill these without resistance (shadowboxing), with pads, with a bag, with a tree, with a . . . whatever you come up with (creativity is key here !)

I agree. I like to practice the forms in it's entirety and then in 3, 5, and 7 combos.



I don't know about the twitch muscles. I guess it depends on your system, right? As in Southern Mantis would be more in line with developing your "twitch" muscles and Choy Lay Fut would more or less work out your whipping power . . .

On this note, I have placed forms into two categories: the first, are the showy, flashy, fast forms. I'm a CLF man and has always been, but CLF forms are for the most part, great for cardio, not so great for building power. However I can run or skip the rope as well.


Sorry, what I meant by twitch was muscles. Fast and slow twitch is just another way of describing different muscle types. For example distance runners, yoga practitioners, and isometric exercises develop more of the slower, endurance muscles. The flashy, showy forms develop the faster muscles. I too am a CLF man and yes, alot of our forms use alot of external strength. I'm not sure about your lineage of CLF, but in ours we have two internal forms: 5 animals and the straight sword.



Stuff like Hung Ga Kuen and SPM allows you to practice everything in a slow, grueling, tiresome fashion. Endless amounts of dynamic tension coupled, and you can go even further by adding weights to the body, arms, and legs. Once again, how hard you push yourself is up to the individual. As such, I see more VALUE in these "types" of forms, where the exercises themselves are there for MORE than just techniques, or patterns - they are designed to build your root, foundation, and structure more than anything. You may even get a bit of power and explosiveness out of them, although this may not be much (compared to say hitting bags and stuff).


Wow, that seems like an interesting style and i can see why you would see more value in those kind of forms. Someone from my school told me that every form (HSCLF) is an internal form. Turning a fast, external form into an internal form by slowing down the movements, stretching out the arms and holding the tension. I guess the concept sounds similar to the Hung Ga Kuen.




I agree with you to an extent. It depends on the system. Choy Lay Fut for example is too right-hand biased for me. I practice almost all of my forms reversed now, based on left-hand bias instead of right. I'm a fanatic with balance . . . ambidexterity, that's just my thing anyway. All the Hung Ga I'm doing so far focuses on the right and left equally.


Yea, I practice the right handed CLF forms on the left hand side too for balance. So how long have you been learning Hung Ga? So cool, on the most part we can agree on the same things.

[Violent Designs]

Hung Ga for a few months.

I sent you a PM btw. Can I ask who your sifu is/where you train?

Hung Sing as in Jeong Yim HS, or Chan Family?

Always good to talk to a CLF brother. :)

[eomonroe00]

you guys make me laugh
"forms suck"
"but i do them because they benefit me"
ha

[eomonroe00]

"Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight."
__________________

Green cloud, you forgot to preface that statement with studies show, and every one in the martial arts community agrees that Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight.
__________________

[Paul T England]

Most People's forms suck!!!!

[Violent Designs]

you guys make me laugh
"forms suck"
"but i do them because they benefit me"
ha

You don't get it do you. You don't get the trend.

Oh well.

[hskwarrior]

3, 5, and 7 combos...........hmmmmm........i wonder if that's a typical CLF thing, or what? in MY lineage, that's what we do....3-5-7 combo's.

anyways, i've stayed away from this thread cause i don't feel like getting into a big debate over forms.

DO FORMS HAVE ANY PRACTICAL AND ACTUAL FIGHTING BENEFITS? YES, AND NO. In my opinion, forms has its purpose, and everyone here was fine with forms until the emergence of the UFC and MMA. Now, when people are faced with the fact that they placed too much of their time and effort into learning how to dance (forms) instead of learning HOW TO USE their martial arts effectively in real life, or competition fighting settings.

It's funny to see some styles and schools scrambling to adjust to the current trend the martial art world is going. The great thing about having a teacher who is a real fighter, he is going to show you how to use what's in the forms.

it's my strong opinion, that FORMS are the blueprints to the style you are learning.

But, when it comes to fighting, if you have NO forms, then how do you know to execute the style as it was taught to you? without them, EVERYONE would just look like kick boxers.

Although I focus on the real life fighting aspects of MY lineage, i still practice forms. I have this saying that i pass on to my students all the time. "at the end of one helluva hard day, when no one respects you, treats you right, your girl left you for the geek down the street, you will always have your gung fu to fall back on.

I know for a fact, that after a hard day, or a stressful one, and i don't feel like working with a partner, all i have to do is my forms once or twice, and ALL IS OKAY again.

I will say this, FORMS EXISTED LONG BEFORE ANYONE HERE ON THIS FORUM WAS EVER BORN. so who are WE to change that?

If you don't like forms......simply.....DON'T DO THEM.
If you DO like forms, PERFECT THEM, because there ARE things to unlock in them.

[David Jamieson]

Take your forms.

Break them down into the parts.

take each part and drill it.

now take that drill and apply it to pads and heavy bags

now take that drill and do it with a partenr.

now take that drill and apply it in sparring starting with low level intensity and working to higher levels of intensity where you are presented with gates/leaks/opportunities to use the extrapolated technique drawn from the form.

now go free style with the style you have taken the technique from that you have worked in the previous method.

If you think forms are stupid, you don't understand the method they employ or how to properly use the entire method of form use, learning and skill development.

other people who don't like forms don't know any or don't know any that are of any consequence.

if you can't remember a simple pattern and use it as a learning tool for all it's parts, then you are a dummy and it's not the tool that is stupid, it's the monkey who doesn't know how to use the tool that's stupid. lol

but by all means, keep thinking that the hammer is a screwdriver. hahahaha

[TenTigers]

take each part and drill it.

now take that drill and apply it to pads and heavy bags

now take that drill and do it with a partenr.


That is how I teach forms at my school. After all that is done, THEN I teach them the form from which the drills came. They learn it easier, they understand its meaning, and they don't end up as monkeys with tools.

Forms are your style's textbook, and were traditionally taught last, if at all. In many cases, only to lineage bearors, as that is how the system was passed down, intact from generation to generation.

If you don't like forms, and you have a wonderful notebook, or several volumes, filled with info on drills, applications, fighting techniques, training methods, hei-gung, noi-gung, etc, Fine.

But when you lose your notebook, or your students wish to teach, everything you devoted your life to is gone. You, and your training will not even be a memory.

[taai gihk yahn]

Forms are your style's textbook, and were traditionally taught last, if at all. In many cases, only to lineage bearors, as that is how the system was passed down, intact from generation to generation.

If you don't like forms, and you have a wonderful notebook, or several volumes, filled with info on drills, applications, fighting techniques, training methods, hei-gung, noi-gung, etc, Fine.

But when you lose your notebook, or your students wish to teach, everything you devoted your life to is gone. You, and your training will not even be a memory.
actually, when you are illiterate and so are your students, then the notebook option is not available, so that's why you need the forms...the ideal of the scholar-warrior is mostly a myth (punctuated with a few exceptions, of course);

[David Jamieson]

That is how I teach forms at my school. After all that is done, THEN I teach them the form from which the drills came. They learn it easier, they understand its meaning, and they don't end up as monkeys with tools.

Forms are your style's textbook, and were traditionally taught last, if at all. In many cases, only to lineage bearors, as that is how the system was passed down, intact from generation to generation.

If you don't like forms, and you have a wonderful notebook, or several volumes, filled with info on drills, applications, fighting techniques, training methods, hei-gung, noi-gung, etc, Fine.

But when you lose your notebook, or your students wish to teach, everything you devoted your life to is gone. You, and your training will not even be a memory.


what you need to do is walk up to the first kid you see with an ice cream cone, slap his face hard and take his ice cream.

He'll never ever forget you and he'll probably learn a martial art. It will be pure serendipity if he comes to you for training.

you gotta think ahead man, so get out there and start slapping some potential students! and even if they don't become your student, they'll become someone else's and if we all join together, we could slap a lotta kids and the streets will be flooded with melted ice creams and children tears!

oh man, what a perfect world that would be!

[Violent Designs]

Good post Uechi Ryu.

[jo]

T
If you don't like forms, and you have a wonderful notebook, or several volumes, filled with info on drills, applications, fighting techniques, training methods, hei-gung, noi-gung, etc, Fine.
.

Nobody has a bigger notebook than you! :D

- jo

[specialed]

1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.

Whoever taught you this LIED. This is what happens when people who do fight, never fought, and have no idea how to fight, teach martial arts.

[TenTigers]

Nobody has a bigger notebook than you! :D

- jo
Man, I gots volumes!

[wetwonder]

For an old-man beginner like me, forms are a good part about building strength and endurance. When I get through a form without panting, then I start doing the stances a little lower. And again the same.

My wife is a high school teacher in South Philadelphia, and in attending events with her, etc, I have seen more than a few real brawls between kids. The thing that stands out, is when two kids go out it for real for anything over 30 seconds, they end up sucking wind and retreat. If one of those kids did forms practice for a couple of years, they could wait out the opponents lack of stamina, and then rip him up.

So that is one benefit of forms, apart from the learning of techniques.

Another benefit is that you can practice your style by yourself, in your house, in a park, on a cruise ship, at work - without anyone else, without bags or boards, and still get a phenomenal workout.

[MasterKiller]

If one of those kids did forms practice for a couple of years, they could wait out the opponents lack of stamina, and then rip him up.. Why waste 2 years doing forms to reap the same benefit as 4 weeks of serious circuit training?

[banditshaw]

Why waste 2 years doing forms to reap the same benefit as 4 weeks of serious circuit training?

Cos it doesn't look as cool.

[wetwonder]

Why waste 2 years doing forms to reap the same benefit as 4 weeks of serious circuit training?

Because in my opinion it won't be as effective as forms training. Doing the forms correct, with low stances, is the best strength and endurance training you can get. If you aren't sucking wind at the end of doing one form, that you're not doing it right, no matter how many years you've been training. You can always do the stances lower, and can always do the form slower. Try doing first form slowly, over a period of 6 or 7 minutes, with stances as low as you can go - and then compare that to any other training.

[Exadon]

Whoever taught you this LIED. This is what happens when people who do fight, never fought, and have no idea how to fight, teach martial arts.

What part of what he said do you believe was a lie? Just wondering.


I enjoy forms.
I think they serve the same purpose as any other reputation practice. Learn how to hold stances, learn how to execute moves, and a way to learn various techniques
Also well performed forms are clearly a form of Art much like Dance and/or Gymnastics.

Complex forms require a lot of control over body and mind

[Golden Arms]

Doing the forms correct, with low stances, is the best strength and endurance training you can get. If you aren't sucking wind at the end of doing one form, that you're not doing it right, no matter how many years you've been training. You can always do the stances lower, and can always do the form slower. Try doing first form slowly, over a period of 6 or 7 minutes, with stances as low as you can go - and then compare that to any other training.

In my experience, the opposite is true much of the time. If you are rushing through your sets, breakneck speed, and breathing really hard at the end, you likely have a lot to learn about what you are doing in general.

[MasterKiller]

Because in my opinion it won't be as effective as forms training. Effective as what, exactlt?

Circuit training is much more efficient than forms training for cardio performance. That's a fact.


Doing the forms correct, with low stances, is the best strength and endurance training you can get. No, doing forms correctly makes you good at doing forms. While you can use them as a tool to enhance your flexibility and structural/alignment training, they are not, by any means, the most efficient or most effective way to spend your time if you are looking to increase your cardiovascular endurance in a fight (which is what you were talking about originally).

Afterall, how long does it take you to even learn the form correctly before you can even begin to modify the way you practice it?


If you aren't sucking wind at the end of doing one form, that you're not doing it right, no matter how many years you've been training. You can always do the stances lower, and can always do the form slower. Try doing first form slowly, over a period of 6 or 7 minutes, with stances as low as you can go - and then compare that to any other training.
I have done my forms like that, and I've also done circuit training. There is no comparison as far as cardio training. None at all.

You do 3 Tabata rounds of 8 exercises and see how much wind you are sucking.

I have students reguarly puke in my classes. How often do you puke after doing forms?

[wetwonder]

Effective as what, exactlt?

Circuit training is much more efficient than forms training for cardio performance. That's a fact.

No, doing forms correctly makes you good at doing forms. While you can use them as a tool to enhance your flexibility and structural/alignment training, they are not, by any means, the most efficient or most effective way to spend your time if you are looking to increase your cardiovascular endurance in a fight (which is what you were talking about originally).

Afterall, how long does it take you to even learn the form correctly before you can even begin to modify the way you practice it?


I have done my forms like that, and I've also done circuit training. There is no comparison as far as cardio training. None at all.

You do 3 Tabata rounds of 8 exercises and see how much wind you are sucking.

I have students reguarly puke in my classes. How often do you puke after doing forms?


You are wrong. The reason I know that is because I'm right. The fact is - any activity can be tailored to be as tough as any other. To argue that one is more strenuous than another is silly.

It's like snowboarding. Some folks brag that they "never fall." If you don't fall, it simply means your not challenging yourself enough. If you don't suck wind after doing a form, you're not pushing yourself. Same goes for circuit training, or anything else.

Folks do forms b/c they like to. Can't argue with what people like to do. Or maybe you can, I don't know. I guess you can, b/c you are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You do 3 Tabata rounds of 8 exercises and see how much wind you are sucking.

I have students reguarly puke in my classes. How often do you puke after doing forms?

Can you expand on that?

[hskwarrior]

I totally agree with masterkiller in regards to forms being the best way to develop your endurance. By doing forms slow, and in a deep horse only allows you enough endurance to complete the form. While circuit training will enhance your overall endurance.

In fact, my students practice their sets both super slow and super quick. And, their just winded at the end. But when i include circuit training along with forms practice, my students have actually vomited immediately after a semi hardcore type of circuit training workout.

To be a more complete martial artist, forms are only one aspect of being one. It's one thing being able to perform a set or form crisply, strongly, and explosively. But, what good will that do you if you have no clue in how to use what you just performed?

However, I still love my forms. When you're alone, practicing a form is a very personal experience. No joke. You can get lost in a form, and actually become the form. Yet, as i always say, forms are nothing more than the blueprints of the system. a good carpenter or architect would look at the blue print, get to know it, and then when it's absorbed, are able to modify it based off his or her own knowledge of what they've studied and trained for. it;s at the point you can take from your forms, and learn various ways to use what's in them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms are great, they are a link to the past, to the history of a system and as such, shoudl never be discarded.
nevertheless, we must understand their limitations, their benefits and lack thereof.

[MasterKiller]

You are wrong. The reason I know that is because I'm right. The fact is - any activity can be tailored to be as tough as any other. To argue that one is more strenuous than another is silly.

It's like snowboarding. Some folks brag that they "never fall." If you don't fall, it simply means your not challenging yourself enough. If you don't suck wind after doing a form, you're not pushing yourself. Same goes for circuit training, or anything else.

Folks do forms b/c they like to. Can't argue with what people like to do. Or maybe you can, I don't know. I guess you can, b/c you are.

Do you believe it is more efficient to spend 2 years doing forms to prepare for a fight than to spend 4 weeks of doing circuit training?

[MasterKiller]

Can you expand on that? OK, I'll try.

Y o u d o 3 T a b a t a r o u n d s o f 8 e x e r c i s e s a n d s e e h o w m u c h w i n d y o u a r e s u c k i n g.

I h a v e s t u d e n t s r e g u a r l y p u k e i n m y c l a s s e s. H o w o f t e n d o y o u p u k e a f t e r d o i n g f o r m s?

[hskwarrior]

MasterKiller,

lemme ask you this. WIthin that four weeks, do you think it's possible that a fighter could retain the essence of the system and actually USE it, in such a short time without resorting to typical boxing type techniques? especially under pressure?

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK, I'll try.

Y o u d o 3 T a b a t a r o u n d s o f 8 e x e r c i s e s a n d s e e h o w m u c h w i n d y o u a r e s u c k i n g.

I h a v e s t u d e n t s r e g u a r l y p u k e i n m y c l a s s e s. H o w o f t e n d o y o u p u k e a f t e r d o i n g f o r m s?

Smartass, which protocol do you follow and what exercises?
:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

MasterKiller,

lemme ask you this. WIthin that four weeks, do you think it's possible that a fighter could retain the essence of the system and actually USE it, in such a short time without resorting to typical boxing type techniques?

I'm only talking cardio here.

Forms can have a place in training. They just shouldn't be the goal of training.

[hskwarrior]

true. :D;):D

[MasterKiller]

Smartass, which protocol do you follow and what exercises?
:rolleyes:

Normally, we do a circuit like this at the end of every class.

1. Skipping Knees on the Thai bag
2. Jab Sprawl/Jab-Cross Sprawl
3. Spiderman push ups
4. Bodyweight squats
5. Hop on/Hop off 2-ft high box
6. Various 30-lb Kettlebell exercises (bent-over rows, clean and press, swings, etc...)
7. Stomach crunches
8. Jumping jacks or Burpees

20 seconds on/10 seconds off X 3 sets.

Not a true tabata, per se, but it's close to what I learned from Tim O'Conner at Ross' gym. It's been effective for me and my students.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Normally, we do a circuit like this at the end of every class.

1. Skipping Knees on the Thai bag
2. Jab Sprawl/Jab-Cross Sprawl
3. Spiderman push ups
4. Bodyweight squats
5. Hop on/Hop off 2-ft high box
6. Various 30-lb Kettlebell exercises (bent-over rows, clean and press, swings, etc...)
7. Stomach crunches
8. Jumping jacks

20 seconds on/10 seconds off X 3 sets.

Not a true tabata, per se, but it's close to what I learned from Tim O'Conner at Ross' gym. It's been effective for me and my students.

Very cool.
So you would do #1 for 20 sec, rest 10, #2 for the same, rest, etc etc, and do 3 sets of these 8 exercises?

[MasterKiller]

Very cool.
So you would do #1 for 20 sec, rest 10, #2 for the same, rest, etc etc, and do 3 sets of these 8 exercises?

yes, pretty much after every class.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes, pretty much after every class.

That'll get them puking !
******* !
:D

[TenTigers]

if you're sucking wind after doing your forms, most likely you aren't breathing correctly. Forms aren't meant to be so much of a workout as they are a textbook of yur system. Sure, you can use them for that, but as MK said, circuit training is a better use of your time. BUT-if you are getting a good workout, and you enjoy using forms as such, why not? Then it is like Jazzercize.
It is really not used for skill development. Techniques are rarely repeated in a form enough for you to develop them to the level that you would if you isolated them and drilled them. Repetition is the mother of skill.
Forms are not to teach fighting, per se. They are a textbook. The techniques are in the forms, yes, but again, they need to be extracted and isolated.
Forms were NEVER considered to be an imaginary fight, or to simulate fighting.
That is simply what they told novices who asked too many questions when they should be training. Old skool teachers would simply say,"STFU and train, or go home!" The trouble is, many of these novices became teachers, without ever "getting it." Now they continue their ignorance.
This is why so called "Modern MAists eschew forms. They took the words of the "experst" as gospel, and then when they found that forms weren't helping them fight, they disgarded them. For them, forms served no purpose.
Like I said, if you have a notebook, and it's working for you, fine.
Funny thing is, most TCMAists have notebooks as well as their forms. Many teachers have passed down their personal notebooks. They contain notes, insights, drills, supplementary training, etc.
Certain forms serve other purposes as well. SPM's Sam Bo Ging teaches and trains the breath, the body, the power, and the spirit. This is "hardwired" into the sets. Isolating them does not accomplish the same thing as doing the form-although you do indeed isolate parts of the form-different methods for different reasons. Saamjien does the same thing. It is more of a drill, but in a set pattern.

Then there is the "Zen" thing. The form allows you to "get into yourself." But, you can do this with anything-running, swimming, mowing the lawn, drilling the makiwara, etc. But, forms are a definately good vehicle for this as one strives for self-perfection. Anyone who has done this knows what I'm talking about.
Hey-it's just one more way you can enjoy Martial arts.
You can play on any level.
The problem is that many people are of the mentality that if they learn the Tiger Crane form, then they can now go out and tackle Bak Mei. If they learn the Drunken Fist, then they will take on the bad guys. This develops into forms collectors, who chase forms rather than skill.
Too many Movies, not enough training.

[MasterKiller]

I'm sure in 1847, people who did forms probably had better cardio than people who didn't, and some sort of correaltion was made between the two.

But it ain't 1847 anymore, so don't train like it.

[wetwonder]

Do you believe it is more efficient to spend 2 years doing forms to prepare for a fight than to spend 4 weeks of doing circuit training?


I think that you spend too much time thinking about fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that you spend too much time thinking about fighting.

Yeah MK, what are you thinking ???
Martial arts and fighting, that's just whack !!

[MasterKiller]

I think that you spend too much time thinking about fighting.

I didn't introduce 'fighing' into the argument. I merely stated that forms training was less efficient than other methods IF you were trying to prepare for a fight.

But, your evasiveness answers my question, regardless.

[wetwonder]

I'm guessing that you've never taken the first line of defense in a threatening situation - to walk away.

[wetwonder]

I didn't introduce 'fighing' into the argument. I merely stated that forms training was less efficient than other methods IF you were trying to prepare for a fight.

But, your evasiveness answers my question, regardless.


Well, I apologize then. You're right, we were talking about fitness. Apologies.

[MasterKiller]

I'm guessing that you've never taken the first line of defense in a threatening situation - to walk away.

What does that have to do with either A) forms B) cardio or C) the price of tea in China?

[wetwonder]

What does that have to do with either A) forms B) cardio or C) the price of tea in China?

I was replying to Mr. Ronin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was replying to Mr. Ronin.

Replying to what with what ?

[Exadon]

I was replying to Mr. Ronin.


Replying to what with what ?

I think the bellow is what he was talking about

Your answer:


Yeah MK, what are you thinking ???
Martial arts and fighting, that's just whack !!

His reply to you:

I'm guessing that you've never taken the first line of defense in a threatening situation - to walk away.

Back to Forms VRS non Forms. I enjoy doing forms, If you add it to the hardcore (make me puke) workout than I guess it can't be a bad thing to do it as well right? :)

[MasterKiller]

Back to Forms VRS non Forms. I enjoy doing forms, If you add it to the hardcore (make me puke) workout than I guess it can't be a bad thing to do it as well right? :) I'm not saying you have to train to puke. Right now, my club is training for a submission tournament, followed by 3 guys fighting in cage matches in a few weeks. So, right now we are training to puke, but that's a different story.

If cardio is a concern, you should add more efficient training methods to your forms work. Forms are only part of a traditional training regime...Weights (like stone locks), forms, cardio, and stretching all make for a well-rounded total-body workout.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not saying you have to train to puke. Right now, my club is training for a submission tournament, followed by 3 guys fighting in cage matches in a few weeks. So, right now we are training to puke, but that's a different story.

If cardio is a concern, you should add more efficient training methods to your forms work.

Its a paced cycle in which you guys AMP up the training coming into the matches, correct?

[MasterKiller]

Its a paced cycle in which you guys AMP up the training coming into the matches, correct?

Yes, the pacing increases before competitions. We have a tournament next week in Norman, OK, so we're at a high level right now. We will slow down in March, then gradually amp it back up starting in April to get them ready to fight in May.

Now, the tabata set is done after every class, regardless. But we spend a lot more class time drilling and doing cooperative-resistance work, and spar/roll in shorter rounds or less rounds, than we do when preparing for competition.

[Lucas]

im not arguing one way or the other.

i do practice 2 forms consistently, i wont go into the reasons why i maintain these 2 sequences, because a lot of you should already know.

but for the record:

I CAN MAKE MYSELF PUKE ANY **** TIME I FEEL LIKE IT !!! :p

[Exadon]

I'm not saying you have to train to puke. Right now, my club is training for a submission tournament, followed by 3 guys fighting in cage matches in a few weeks. So, right now we are training to puke, but that's a different story.

If cardio is a concern, you should add more efficient training methods to your forms work. Forms are only part of a traditional training regime...Weights (like stone locks), forms, cardio, and stretching all make for a well-rounded total-body workout.

yeah I just added the puke part as a joke. :)

[Violent Designs]

I wonder why so many CMA guys are interested in MMA-format competitions?

I would think K-1, Thai Boxing, and of course Sanda makes more sense as CMA is predominately striking . . .

[Lucas]

a lot of cma practitioners are wanting to be realistic in their goals, as cma is often sought for delf defense means. mma is a more realistic format, as people arent going to let you get back up in the street if they take you down. usually.

[banditshaw]

Could be a glove thing.
A lot of traditionalists hate wearing the big gloves and might lean towards the mma gloves.
Also most CMA's have a strong Chin Na aspect which is basically standing grappling no? So that would explain the preference to be able to grab and subdue.
Finally MMA's rules format is the closest to a NHB streetfight, with rules of course.

[Lucas]

although as far as someone who is pure cma, sanda is a better format to let yourself shine, as the ground is non existant.

[banditshaw]

That sir is very true. But then they would be glorified kickboxers:eek:
:D

[Lucas]

That sir is very true. But then they would be glorified kickboxers:eek:
:D

lol

gotta find glory where you can !

;)

[Violent Designs]

although as far as someone who is pure cma, sanda is a better format to let yourself shine, as the ground is non existant.

Indeed. I'm in the boat of "perfecting" one game rather than being adequate in several (a la MMA).

I mean I love watching MMA but would never compete in the format. Don't wanna spend that much time learning the ground game (and really, how many streetfights are you gonna get in where you will have to be a black belt in BJJ to get out?).

[MasterKiller]

and really, how many streetfights are you gonna get in where you will have to be a black belt in BJJ to get out?).

If you live in OKlahoma, Texas, Ohio, Iowa, Nebraska, or Indiana, the odds of someone 'on the street' knowing how to wrestle are pretty high.

And to tell you the truth, I don't train for self-defense. I train for the sake of training. Grappling allows you to train very hard with minimal chance of injury, especially compared to San Da. So, you can get a great workout, build your endurance, core strength, and flexibility, well past the age where you can Kick/Punch/Throw hard and still get out of bed in the morning.

[Violent Designs]

If you live in OKlahoma, Texas, Ohio, Iowa, Nebraska, or Indiana, the odds of someone 'on the street' knowing how to wrestle are pretty high.

And to tell you the truth, I don't train for self-defense. I train for the sake of training. Grappling allows you to train very hard with minimal chance of injury, especially compared to San Da. So, you can get a great workout, build your endurance, core strength, and flexibility, well past the age where you can Kick/Punch/Throw hard and still get out of bed in the morning.

I just don't care about grappling personally. I respect it and the people that do it.

But give me 5 days a week to train. I'd rather spend all 5 sparring, boxing, doing CLF, hitting the bags, whatever. I like to punch stuff. That's just that.

Also the the guys who know how to "wrestle" on “the streets" how much FIGHTING experience do they have? Probably not alot.

There's a matter of being big and strong, and thinking you're tought sh!t.

It's another matter to be able to take a ****ing shovel hook to liver, a stomp kick to the knee or a low roundhouse to the thighs followed by a hard upper or hook to the head. Throw in some elbows or knees.

Striking forces you to get used to the pain, grit your teeth, and keep going. Most "wrestlers" (like high school wrestlers etc who never do MMA) goes down after a good knee to the gut.

[lkfmdc]

If you live in OKlahoma, Texas, Ohio, Iowa, Nebraska, or Indiana, the odds of someone 'on the street' knowing how to wrestle are pretty high.




ding ding ding! we have a winnnnnnnah

[wetwonder]

Our Sifu has been doing so for over 30 years and is from Hong Kong. He uses what I gather is the traditional model. We learn open hand forms, interspersed with pad drills. Then go to two-man forms and then weapons. After a couple of years of building strength, endurance, and technique, the focus turns more to self-defense. It seems to be a "way of life" model, rather than the way teaching is organized at some other kenpo and karate schools I've seen, where the curriculum takes a broad approach from the start with technique, self defense, and over time fitness.

[Drake]

I like forms :D

[MasterKiller]

Also the the guys who know how to "wrestle" on “the streets" how much FIGHTING experience do they have? Probably not alot.

You mean besides 10+ years of wrestling in school 100% against guys trying to hurt you? LOL!


It's another matter to be able to take a ****ing shovel hook to liver, a stomp kick to the knee or a low roundhouse to the thighs followed by a hard upper or hook to the head. Throw in some elbows or knees. You better add a sprawl in there, somewhere. ;)


Striking forces you to get used to the pain, grit your teeth, and keep going. Most "wrestlers" (like high school wrestlers etc who never do MMA) goes down after a good knee to the gut.
And you don't go down after a good knee to gut?:rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

If you live in OKlahoma, Texas, Ohio, Iowa, Nebraska, or Indiana, the odds of someone 'on the street' knowing how to wrestle are pretty high.

And to tell you the truth, I don't train for self-defense. I train for the sake of training. Grappling allows you to train very hard with minimal chance of injury, especially compared to San Da. So, you can get a great workout, build your endurance, core strength, and flexibility, well past the age where you can Kick/Punch/Throw hard and still get out of bed in the morning.

Wait a minute...I should be able to get out of bed in the morning after a good sparring session?:D

[Violent Designs]

You mean besides 10+ years of wrestling in school 100% against guys trying to hurt you? LOL!

You better add a sprawl in there, somewhere. ;)


And you don't go down after a good knee to gut?:rolleyes:

When did school wrestling become MMA.

The goal is to tap, not drop bombs and elbows on someone's face.

[Askari Hodari]

I like the initial premise.

Baba Balogun of Egbe Ogun: African Wrestling said that a lot of practitioners of Asian martial arts believe that "the forms hold the secrets of the art". He says "no sparring holds the secrets of the art". Practicing forms day and night will not make you a proficient fighter. Though it will make you proficient at doing forms. I think that it is important for one's training methods to be consistent with one's purpose. If you're training for combat then forms may be useless. If your goal is to preserve tradition then forms have immense value.

[MasterKiller]

When did school wrestling become MMA.

The goal is to tap, not drop bombs and elbows on someone's face.

Can you punch your way out of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vitkRVl_qkc&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can you punch your way out of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vitkRVl_qkc&feature=related

Now that was just pure sweetness.

[uki]

forms are expressions of oneself... a persons style is a reflection of their self.

Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight.hohohohoHAHAHAHAHA!!! aww man, you're killing me here. so how many trophies do you have? :p

[Lucas]

forms are just for people who can draw value from them. some do some dont.

the real context here comes down to a persons goals as well as their resources.

but of course, we all already knew this, right?

;)

[MightyB]

They don't teach you any realistic fightin applications obviously.

So why are we wasting our times doing them. :D

Form suck!

/thread

I think you're a douche.

word of the day--- DOUCHE :D

[Lucas]

I think you're a douche.

word of the day--- DOUCHE :D

lol.

how douchey of you to say so my douchey friend.

;):D

[Lucas]

I think you're a douche.

word of the day--- DOUCHE :D

wait is this like pee wee's play house, do i have to yell every time you post that now?

[tattooedmonk]

Take your forms.

Break them down into the parts.

take each part and drill it.

now take that drill and apply it to pads and heavy bags

now take that drill and do it with a partenr.

now take that drill and apply it in sparring starting with low level intensity and working to higher levels of intensity where you are presented with gates/leaks/opportunities to use the extrapolated technique drawn from the form.

now go free style with the style you have taken the technique from that you have worked in the previous method.

If you think forms are stupid, you don't understand the method they employ or how to properly use the entire method of form use, learning and skill development.

other people who don't like forms don't know any or don't know any that are of any consequence.

if you can't remember a simple pattern and use it as a learning tool for all it's parts, then you are a dummy and it's not the tool that is stupid, it's the monkey who doesn't know how to use the tool that's stupid. lol

but by all means, keep thinking that the hammer is a screwdriver. hahahahaHave you done this before???:p;)

[MightyB]

wait is this like pee wee's play house, do i have to yell every time you post that now?

yes -

Douche

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: "Ahhhhhhhhh!"

[Lucas]

aaaahhhhhhahahaha

[David Jamieson]

Have you done this before???:p;)

man, i re-read that and I thought, holy crap, I'm rude!

oh well. lol

but yes, that is what i do with forms once i have been taught them and have practiced them.

[nospam]

Well..outside of the above poster's rudeness, exactly.

nospam
:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

man, i re-read that and I thought, holy crap, I'm rude!

oh well. lol

but yes, that is what i do with forms once i have been taught them and have practiced them.I did nt think so. This is how I approach forms as well . Somebody learned you good!!!:D( said in a country/ hick voice)

[uki]

forms should be as spontaneous as a confrontation.

[Eric Olson]

My 3 cents:

1) Forms are really just a series of short combos tacked together, often in a strange way so that the person will end up back where they started the form. You can often find these break points where someone wanted to connect one combo to another and came up with something kind of goofy. It's up to the individual student to find the combos and train them realistically because your teacher probably won't train them separately like they should.

2) Forms are a really generalized form of training. They will get you in shape to a point (assuming you are starting from ground zero) but at some point you'll hit a plateau and need to break out the specialized training to progress (ie weights, jogging, etc.)


EO

[MasterKiller]

forms should be as spontaneous as a confrontation.

That's like saying cement should be fluid like water.

[Lucas]

maybe the water should be as solid as concrete

[uki]

That's like saying cement should be fluid like water.before it sets and gets hard... it is. :)

[Violent Designs]

before it sets and gets hard... it is. :)

Wait a minute . . . you're giving me an existential crisis ache. :(

[uki]

Wait a minute . . . you're giving me an existential crisis ache.LMAO!! first time i ever read that!!

i was just putting the masturbat...er... killer into his place... he likes to seem all intellectually intelligent, but we all know that it's hard to pull a fast one on me. :)

[esox]

forms remove the transient student in traditional styles.After you've practised the first form in your training thousands of times, gone on and learnt more forms, come full circle and realised the reason behind that first form you embark upon your journey, admittedly some styles have far to many forms, I'm talking from the viewpoint of a style that has less than five

[Lai See]

forms remove the transient student in traditional styles.After you've practised the first form in your training thousands of times, gone on and learnt more forms, come full circle and realised the reason behind that first form you embark upon your journey, admittedly some styles have far to many forms, I'm talking from the viewpoint of a style that has less than five

Would that be 'short term transient students'?

A coarse fisherman per chance?

[MasterKiller]

LMAO!! first time i ever read that!!

i was just putting the masturbat...er... killer into his place... he likes to seem all intellectually intelligent, but we all know that it's hard to pull a fast one on me. :)

It's not a form if it's formless, Sookie.

[esox]

Would that be 'short term transient students'?

A coarse fisherman per chance?

sometimes I type quicker than I can think, well spotted with the ultimate predator, however I'm always to busy to fish on a tuesday

[uki]

people who think forms suck, suck - form is all there is... :D

[goju]

They don't teach you any realistic fightin applications obviously.

So why are we wasting our times doing them. :D

Form suck!

/thread

some of them have chi gung benefits
also theya re incredibly good for deveoping grace and rhytm

and as ufc great bas ruten noted kata takes quite a degree of conditioning to pull off at full speed and full power correctly

[bawang]

form = japanese word kata
taolu= modern wushu new term
the concept of form does not exist in chinese martial arts

some of them have chi gung benefits
there is no qi gong benefits from doing forms


also theya re incredibly good for deveoping grace and rhytm
what are you some kind of h0m0sexual?


and as ufc great bas ruten noted kata takes quite a degree of conditioning to pull off at full speed and full power correctly
forms is easy as hell to do. only old people find foms hard

[goju]

form = japanese word kata
taolu= modern wushu new term
the concept of form does not exist in chinese martial arts

there is no qi gong benefits from doing forms


what are you some kind of h0m0sexual?


forms take no conditioning
chinese martial arts have training methods for conditioning, forms isnt

conditioning as in cardio endurance to pullt hem off:D

no chi gong benefits? ever heard of sanchin? tencho? bagua forms? etc etc?

"what are you some kind of h0m0sexual?"
no just european:D

[bawang]

san zhan is a southern chinese hard qigong excercise. its not a form. theres few techniques. its a power building excercise.
the circle walking of baguazhang has no "qi" benefits

the one the only reason to do forms is to show how manly tough and strong you are

[goju]

san zhan is a southern chinese hard qigong excercise. its not a form. theres few techniques. its a power building excercise.
the circle walking of baguazhang has no "qi" benefits

the one the only reason to do forms is to show how manly tough and strong you are

please tell me youre trolling:D

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmzEECPkrI

i prefer watching this to limp jumping and spinning. this is manly kung fu
watch the video then think about what you are training

[AdrianK]

what are you some kind of h0m0sexual?

I'd of thought one of the first things you learn to overcome as a martial artist would be bigotry.

[bawang]

I'd of thought one of the first things you learn to overcome as a martial artist would be bigotry.

i thought one of the first things you do in kung fu is to be righteous and uphold justice and preserve traditional chinese values

[AdrianK]

i thought one of the first things you do in kung fu is to be righteous and uphold justice and preserve traditional chinese values

Are you ****ing serious, dude?

There's nothing righteous or just about prejudice.

No Man, Woman, King or God has the right to tell any person how to live their life, as long as that person is not infringing upon the rights of others.

Your beliefs are archaic, with no logical sense or understanding behind them.

[bawang]

that is why your kung fu has failed you my son
or maybe you failed kung fu :eek:

[AdrianK]

that is why your kung fu has failed you my son

How about presenting a valid, logical argument instead of vague, baseless bullshi t?

[bawang]

al right how about

if you want to preserve traditional kung fu you cant pick and choose.
you cant just edit and take out kung fu code of honor.
how about not being a hippy learning a archaic useless southern obscure boat style no one has heard of until the past 50 years with the most famous practioners one being a opium addict and the other a liar, scammer , adulterer and domestic abuser?

you want to preserve a ancient out of date warrior way of life but you take out the things you dont like. thats disrepectful , false devotion, and insults the spirits of past sifus.

[AdrianK]

al right how about

if you want to preserve traditional kung fu you cant pick and choose.
you cant just edit and take out kung fu code of honor.
how about not being a hippy learning a archaic useless southern obscure boat style no one has heard of until the past 50 years with the most famous practioners one being a opium addict and the other a liar, scammer , adulterer and domestic abuser?

you want to preserve a ancient out of date warrior way of life but you take out the things you dont like. thats disrepectful , false devotion, and insults the spirits of past sifus.

Where exactly can I get a copy of this kung fu code of honor?

And please explain to me where it says ****sexuality is against it.

And please explain to me how that makes any sense that it would be against any code of honor. Human Sexuality has been explored and understood to a higher degree in the last 50 years than the last 5000 years. Some old, bull**** kung fu code of honor has no scientific understanding of it, and thus has no claim to decisions about its "honor".

[uki]

kung fu means something like time spent in energy... this whole argument is ridiculously moot...

yet it's highly entertaining so please do carry on... ignorance may not be bliss, but it's sure is funny!!! :D

[bawang]

Some old, bull**** kung fu style has no scientific understanding , and thus has no claim to decisions about "fighting".
yes i agree

someone like you learning one of china's oldest ways of life then tearing it up and distorting and corrupting it, brings to full circle the shame and humiliation of my people

maybe you are better off learning kendo. i hear the samurai used to practice "shudo" man-boy love

[AdrianK]

yes i agree

someone like you learning one of china's oldest ways of life then tearing it up and distorting and corrupting it, brings to full circle the shame and humiliation of my people

Its just really funny, how incredibly ignorant and immature you are.

Go go Kung Fu superhero. Save the world from the god-less and the gays.

[bawang]

i dont see how its funny. youre mocking me and my people's defeat at the hands of superior western culture. if you think chinese warrior culture is so archaic and uselesss why dont you go train mma? or train muay thai, thais are very open ad accepting about that kind of things

i think whats really funny is how a very sh1tty and useless fisherman unknown style has turned into a "science", simply by shamelessly self advertising, selling out, and riding the fame of bruce lee

[AdrianK]

i dont see how its funny. youre mocking me and my people's defeat at the hands of superior western culture.

I'm mocking your archaic beliefs that stemmed from nothing more than a desire to assert superiority.



if you think chinese warrior culture is so archaic and uselesss why dont you go train mma? or train muay thai, thais are very open ad accepting about that kind of things

I never said the warrior culture is useless. It has plenty of beneficial ways I live my life by.

Prejudice against a group of people for their beliefs, is not one of them.



i think whats really funny is how a very sh1tty and useless fisherman unknown style has turned into a "science", simply by shamelessly self advertising, selling out, and riding the fame of bruce lee

I don't understand what you're getting at?
Simply because I post on the Wing Chun forum, does not mean I consider myself a practictioner of wing chun. I've trained WC before, among other things.

And all martial arts are part of a science and art.

Though a "useless" fisherman style? Hahahaha. I wouldn't consider most wing chun out there entirely useful, but it has some useful ideas.

Most kung fu out there in general is pretty useless.

[bawang]

I never said the warrior culture is useless. It has plenty of beneficial ways I live my life by..
like "health" and "self confidence" :rolleyes:

Prejudice against a group of people for their beliefs, is not one of them.
.i never knew sodomy is a religion. does ur god reside in the lower tract of ur large intestine?
Most kung fu out there in general is pretty useless.
i click your name it says style is wingchun + boxing. let me guess you do a "little" muay thai also :rolleyes:


about the topic, i think forms shouldnt be thought of as a routine. many techniques are meant to be done one at a time and not in a row. doing unrelated tecniques in a row is bad habit because then you cant use it

[Drake]

Bawang is my favorite person here. :)

[AdrianK]

like "health" and "self confidence"

Like loyalty, hard work, perseverance and respecting the beliefs of others.



i never knew sodomy is a religion. does ur god reside in the lower tract of ur large intestine?

Never said sodomy was a religion. Plenty of straight people participate in anal sex as well. The belief has nothing to do with the sexuality, the sexuality is just the extentsion of that belief. A human being's preference of what they are attracted to is not any of your business.

It is not any of your politicians business.

It is not any of your God's business.

If there is a God and they say that a human beings preference for ANYTHING, that is not infringing on the rights of another person, is wrong, then count me as an enemy of that God because that God is an ignorant imbecile who abuses their power.


i click your name it says style is wingchun + boxing. let me guess you do a "little" muay thai also

Thats awesome you did some research on me.
The information isn't entirely serious. I've trained in Wing Chun under various teachers, South Mantis under various teachers, Mok Ga, Muay Thai under various teachers, Boxing under various teachers, and I've had experience with Kyokushin Karate, Goju Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kickboxing, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, Tai Chi, and plenty of other styles.

My personal expression is not any of those in any majority way.

[No_Know]

One gave an opinion
Another commented on the opinion relevantly but used a term.

undercut

counter undercut

Out of context and off the line

There are understandings.

Some understandings come from experiences but also experience. Lacking the time-in, there's speculation.

Some think there's major usefulness in forms. Some understand forms to be near or wholly useless. Each to that one's understanding.

We are each correct as far as we understand. And at least some of us might be delusional. AdrianK seemed to be against influencing thought or interferring in people's beliefs. With that we might be wrong, but AdrianK believes we have the Right to be Wrong.

There's a thing said, "Truth be told." And we are telling Truth. AdrianK, if you think or know that we or someof us don't know the truth on the usefullness of formfs you seem to have said things that reflect that you believe that it is Not your place to tell us we are wrong as you infringe on our rights to believe/think what we do as long as we do similarly and allow you your beliefs.

If we can all allow everyone to believe as they do, then...I No_Know.

I No_Know

No_Know

[AdrianK]

One gave an opinion
Another commented on the opinion relevantly but used a term.

undercut

counter undercut

Out of context and off the line

There are understandings.

Some understandings come from experiences but also experience. Lacking the time-in, there's speculation.

Some think there's major usefulness in forms. Some understand forms to be near or wholly useless. Each to that one's understanding.

We are each correct as far as we understand. And at least some of us might be delusional. AdrianK seemed to be against influencing thought or interferring in people's beliefs. With that we might be wrong, but AdrianK believes we have the Right to be Wrong.

There's a thing said, "Truth be told." And we are telling Truth. AdrianK, if you think or know that we or someof us don't know the truth on the usefullness of formfs you seem to have said things that reflect that you believe that it is Not your place to tell us we are wrong as you infringe on our rights to believe/think what we do as long as we do similarly and allow you your beliefs.

If we can all allow everyone to believe as they do, then...I No_Know.

I No_Know

No_Know


There are beliefs backed up by logic and fact, by the collective experiences of many people.

And there are beliefs backed up by none of that.

If I were to force upon you that beating your child is wrong, that would be OKAY because it is backed up by years of research, by logic and fact.

If I were to force upon you that guys dating guys is dishonorable or wrong like bawang feels, that would be WRONG in itself because it is backed up by nothing. Not science, nor logic nor fact. Most of it stems from religious beliefs or prejudice which is passed down.

You can feel however you want to feel about it, but tolerance is key.

And if someone is going to post your beliefs on a public forum, they better prepare to back them up with something more than just vague, unsubstantiated bull****.

[Steeeve]

Forms could be shadow boxing ...could be hit the heavy bag ...or the speed ball
using same motion but different pattern ...jab cross hook is a form repetion of mouvements:D thats the same with traditionnal forms with katas or kuens or whaterver just different method of training

Are U so stupid for not understood

[Eric Olson]

I agree forms are stupid...but they were the best they had at the time to transmit the system...no youtube back then, afterall ;). What's really stupid is to turn them into a contest, as if the form is the final goal. That's missing the forest for the trees. :eek:

EO

[uki]

form = shape... the shape of your body is your form - moving is form. movement is changing shape... changing shape is changing form. :cool:

[Eric Olson]

form = shape... the shape of your body is your form - moving is form. movement is changing shape... changing shape is changing form. :cool:

In Chinese shape=xing and form (as is hand form) =tao lu. For some reason historical reason we use one word to refer to both things.

A better term might be "handset."


EO

[Lucas]

i often use 'routine' or 'sequence' instead of form refering to tou lu, falling back to the norm is so easy though.

[bawang]

tao = a set, a collection of movements/techniques
lu = road
northern kung fu fights in one straightline. you practice techniques in a straight line, then turn around and go back in a straight line. your foot make a road on the ground from drilling a long time.

i call forms "zhao" techniques. taijiquan 108 form i call it 108 zhao, 108 techniques.

some forms to me is no good, some forms to me is worth more than gold

[Steeeve]

good definition guys :rolleyes:

[Steeeve]

well
only form i train is the hsing I 5 element ....santi shih is my esoteric posture
for the chi training :)

[CLFFU]

From a guitar player's standpoint, I guess I've always likened forms to scales or chords, and free fighting to actual improvised playing. You're using aspects of the scalar/chordal relationships in your playing, but you're not just running through them mindlessly. In MA terms, forms are a way of acquainting ones self with the actual techniques/combinations/etc. that may be drilled and trained for use in actual fighting.

On a side note, in reference to the mention of many people from Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc. being able to wrestle, I have to say that being from Iowa, everybody and their mom knows how to wrestle here (at least a little.) I wrestled throughout high school, and so did most guys I know and have run around with. While it's been my experience that most pure "wrestlers" that fight around here do pretty well against the average douche bag they run into, they aren't always so great at real fighting and usually get knocked out by someone who knows their stuff and isn't too keen on rolling around on the ground. Besides, the guys that are kicking their asses ALSO have some wrestling background, coupled with the ability to hit 'em like they mean it.

[SAAMAG]

They don't teach you any realistic fightin applications obviously.

So why are we wasting our times doing them. :D

Form suck!

/thread

Vegetables suck too...but they're good for you. Forms are a record of information, they stimulate the mind (memory), body (movement), and soul (meditative).

That said...I don't do forms either.

[bawang]

shaolin luohan kung fu in the beginning only had 8 moves then 18 then 36 72 then 108 ,think about it
forms mean nothing

[SIFU RON]

It is simple to see who is knowledgeable of Kung Fu and whom is not, from the posts on this thread .

In the Nov/Dec issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine ( which we all should read) on page 58 - page 60 contains words of wisdom regarding Forms. The subject - Inside Wudang Mountain's - is an excellent article.

Forms include many of the stances and strikes used throughout the Wudang ( all systems actually) systems. Forms are useful because they teach the student how movements can be combined to create a flow. Practicing froms also helps the students develop steady footwork and an understanding of the martial applications. Learning and teaching forms is also a great way to pass on and preserve a lineage, by Daoist monk Shou Xuan Yun .

[TenTigers]

On a side note, in reference to the mention of many people from Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc. being able to wrestle, I have to say that being from Iowa, everybody and their mom knows how to wrestle here (at least a little.) I wrestled throughout high school, and so did most guys I know and have run around with. While it's been my experience that most pure "wrestlers" that fight around here do pretty well against the average douche bag they run into, they aren't always so great at real fighting and usually get knocked out by someone who knows their stuff and isn't too keen on rolling around on the ground. Besides, the guys that are kicking their asses ALSO have some wrestling background, coupled with the ability to hit 'em like they mean it.
yep. My GF is from Iowa.
She's not much of a wrestler,
but you should see her box!

[sanjuro_ronin]

yep. My gf is from iowa.
She's not much of a wrestler,
but you should see her box!

*rimshot*:d

[Dragonzbane76]

It is simple to see who is knowledgeable of Kung Fu and whom is not, from the posts on this thread .

so your saying that since i think 'forms' are a waste of time that i'm not knowledgeable of kung fu?


Forms include many of the stances and strikes used throughout the Wudang ( all systems actually) systems. Forms are useful because they teach the student how movements can be combined to create a flow. Practicing froms also helps the students develop steady footwork and an understanding of the martial applications. Learning and teaching forms is also a great way to pass on and preserve a lineage, by Daoist monk Shou Xuan Yun .

to me forms do not teach a 'working' fighting front. they teach you movements that are to complicated for effective fighting. They are structurely 'unsound' and to train this way is to learn bad habits.

why waste your time with forms when you could learn form for boxing/kickboxing or work on your ground skills with some BJJ or clinch work with Judo. I like kung fu but there is a lot of Sh!t put into it that you need to cut away before you start getting to the stuff that is practical. Trained in Kung fu for 14 years before getting to the point of utter let down with it. The form of a lot of the teachings are flawed and don't account for a lot of different things when fighting.

Just my opinion :)

[Steeeve]

does hitting the heavy bag ,the speed ball,shadow boxing....doing repetition of ground fighting techniques alone is bull****:confused:thats forms
whats mean form for u......

[Dragonzbane76]

because you are working with a resistant opponent, that's all. form is just a word, imo, i guess you could look at shadow boxing and say, well thats a form? but to me its not it's different from working forms. everyone there own i guess i just get more outta training with people and in environments of contention. :)

[TenTigers]

"so your saying that since i think 'forms' are a waste of time that i'm not knowledgeable of kung fu?"

well basically, since you don't seem to know or understand what froms were developed for, Then the answer would be yes.

[AdrianK]

Forms are just one aspect of kung fu.

I'm sure there are other aspects of kung fu that you're lacking in, TenTigers.

To be knowledgeable or not knowledgeable in kung fu is not determined by your understanding of the whole. An understanding of the whole is great, however unachievable in its entirety, to say you know all of kung fu.

Instead, based on the types of people we are, we have a deeper understanding of the parts that best represent who we are.

Thus, to be "knowledgeable" in kung fu is determined by an expertise in a single or multiple aspect(s), as a complete understanding of kung fu, is impossible in the span of a single lifetime.

Forms, as said before, are one aspect. Understanding or not understanding them does not denote whether you can be considered knowledgeable in kung fu.

In fact, I might even say, based on my understanding of kung fu, such an overstatement of the importance of forms shows a lack of understanding of them. :D

They are what they are. A single part. Do not overstate or understate their importance. What we know from a scientific standpoint has accurately proven that they are not essential to building a set of skills. They may help, they may be essential to your journey and goals, they may further understanding, but they are not necessary to obtaining an understanding of kung fu.

[TenTigers]

What we know from a scientific standpoint has accurately proven that they are not essential to building a set of skills. They may help, they may be essential to your journey and goals, they may further understanding, but they are not necessary to obtaining an understanding of kung fu.

That's it right there-I don't want this to sound like I attacked DB, because I am not. but you are saying the same thing as well.
Look, forms (unless they are developmental forms, such as siu nim tau, sam bo ging, ng hung, saamjien, etc) are not designed to develop skill. They are a textbook, designed to pass on the techniques, concepts, theories, etc of s specific style.
People have this mistaken notion that by learning a form, and practicing it, they will build this great set of skills.
That type of thinking comes from bad Kung-Fu movies, and if a teacher is passing on this way of thinking, then he isn't worth studying under.
Forms were NEVER developed with this in mind.
Forms don't suck. Sucky teachers suck.

[Dragonzbane76]

well basically, since you don't seem to know or understand what froms were developed for, Then the answer would be yes.

never stated i don't understand what they were "developed" for I just find them a waste of time. :)

[Frost]

Somehow I think that when kung fu was actually used by people defend their lives they got their instructors techniques and theories on how to fight from 1 on 1 hands on experience not from forms.

I find doing a form that might or might not have been passed down correctly from the originator, and even if it has it was designed by someone who had a totally different body shape than me and who comes from a different period in time when combat looked different to be very strange.

[goju]

its funny how people who poo poo on forms the most are most often stiff and uncoordinated:D

forms teach you a variety of things only fools completely disregard them:D

[Frost]

only fools blindly follow something their ancestors might or might not have done, in a sequence they might or might not have used, usually not knowing the intention behind the form in the first place :D

and its funny how those that champion forms can't normally fight their way out of a paper bag :D

(see I can do funny little sentences with smiley faces too)

[goju]

as i tell everyone

bas rutten believes in forms and who the **** are you to argue with him?:D

[Dragonzbane76]

its funny how people who poo poo on forms the most are most often stiff and uncoordinated

forms teach you a variety of things only fools completely disregard them
__________________

I'm not uncoordinated in the least...and as for not being agile.... i'm pretty agile :D

i see nothing wrong with people doing forms... although imo your not going to learn how to fight doing forms. for years i did forms... i still have a section of my mind filled to the brim with useless information i collected during that period in my life about forms. hung ga forms/ pai lum forms/ mantis forms..etc... all full of useless info. when it comes to actual fighting. i'll have to agree with Mr. frost about forms you can do them all day long but that will do absolutely nothing for your prowess against a resistant opponent.

[goju]

who thinks they make you an effective fighter? they give you certain attributes like smoothness and coordination that can help in a fight but certainly just doing forms isnt enough it is merely a small piece of a big puzzle:D

[Dragonzbane76]

i agree to an extent. although I wouldn't do forms i would work on technique instead to help with body mechanics. mitt work/ matt work/ clinch work etc. seems to a more worth while endevor than to work on forms. but that's my opinion. :p

[Frost]

as i tell everyone

bas rutten believes in forms and who the **** are you to argue with him?:D

Umm fedor doesn’t, who are you to argue with him?

[Frost]

who thinks they make you an effective fighter? they give you certain attributes like smoothness and coordination that can help in a fight but certainly just doing forms isnt enough it is merely a small piece of a big puzzle:D

They give you smoothness doing the forms that does not translate into smoothness in fighting.

And smoothness can come from actually sparring, hitting the pads etc as can coordination and that transfers better over into actual fighting as the stress you are under is closer to what you will feel in an actual fight

[goju]

Umm fedor doesn’t, who are you to argue with him?
my money would be on bas in a fight

so again......:D

[goju]

They give you smoothness doing the forms that does not translate into smoothness in fighting.

And smoothness can come from actually sparring, hitting the pads etc as can coordination and that transfers better over into actual fighting as the stress you are under is closer to what you will feel in an actual fight

well with that attitude why do anything but full force spar all the time?
ive seen plenty of good pad demonstrations, bag work et etc and it all falls to crap in sparring

:D

[Dragonzbane76]

when doing mitt work/bag work it is easy to transition it across. You are doing the actual movments of fighting when doing those. Forms have to much crap in them.

If you wanna be a good fighter you should sparr all the time, but you also need to work tech. and resistance with a moving target. Bag/ mitt work gives you that, unless the guy holding your pads does not know how to hold (moving with you/ forcing you into confrontation/ working combinations/ etc.)

nothing wrong with forms imo, old people do it in the park all the time. But you don't see them fighting. I guess forms do have a purpose they help old people stay younger :)

[Frost]

my money would be on bas in a fight

so again......:D

really..umm ok now i know you are joking :D

[Frost]

well with that attitude why do anything but full force spar all the time?
ive seen plenty of good pad demonstrations, bag work et etc and it all falls to crap in sparring

:D

who said full force all the time? you can spar at 50% to work technique and still get the same benefits as you would from forms but also work in a partially stressful environment against a moving target

yes sometimes it all falls apart in sparing (usually when someone has their first fight because of the adrenaline dump) but I have yet to see anyone who is good at forms look half decent in a sparring match so your point is what?

[TenTigers]

Somehow I think that when kung fu was actually used by people defend their lives they got their instructors techniques and theories on how to fight from 1 on 1 hands on experience not from forms.

I find doing a form that might or might not have been passed down correctly from the originator, and even if it has it was designed by someone who had a totally different body shape than me and who comes from a different period in time when combat looked different to be very strange.

well, yeah. Originally, there would be no use for forms-for first generation students. However, if you want to pass it down any further, you need a textbook. And considering thet textebooks can get lost, stolen, destroyed, and on top of that, many teachers as well as their students were illiterate, forms are the best way to do this.
As far as your second point goes-Sure, a crap teacher is incapable of teaching anyone other than his clone. But anyone with intelligence can teach someone with a different structure, different temprament, etc.
If a technique is valid, it's valid. Period.
Sometimes there are techniques that don't work, because the person doing them cannot make them work. Crap teachers again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TT, makes a valid point.
Add to that, forms were for the time, the best way to not only catalog a system but also to have a student do solo training to keep his skill level as high as he could.
Friendly sparring didn't really exist outside of "sets" and going to a local gym to work out with the guys wasn't an everyday option like today.
Forms allowed the student to apply what he was taught, get a workout and even add his own "flavour" to the system.
They served and in many ways, still serve a important purpose.
Forms were not a substitute for fighting, nor where they a substitute for equipment work, they were just a part of the equation.
Are they outdated?
Perhaps, it truly depends on what you want out of your chosen MA.

[TenTigers]

when doing mitt work/bag work it is easy to transition it across. You are doing the actual movments of fighting when doing those. Forms have to much crap in them.

If you wanna be a good fighter you should sparr all the time, but you also need to work tech. and resistance with a moving target. Bag/ mitt work gives you that, unless the guy holding your pads does not know how to hold (moving with you/ forcing you into confrontation/ working combinations/ etc.)

nothing wrong with forms imo, old people do it in the park all the time. But you don't see them fighting. I guess forms do have a purpose they help old people stay younger :)

You are still basing your argument on a false as$umption as if it's truth.
What don't you get? Forms are not what you think they are for.
Either you can't read, can't understand, or you have been brainwashed by crap teachers for so long, you cannot let go of your belief system.


Not to defend HW108, but one thing he said did actually hold some truth:
95% of the teachers out there taught crap-and people lapped it up like it was gold. The problem is, nobody wants to be told that what they've been doing for their entire life is basically crap. I learned a heckuvalot of crap from very well-known, famous "Masters"-highly respected among their peers in the CMA community. We all did, and it's still going on.

[Dragonzbane76]

You are still basing your argument on a false as$umption as if it's truth.
Either you can't read, can't understand, or you have been brainwashed by crap teachers for so long, you cannot let go of your belief system.

not really my argument... my opinion would better describe it. Like i said IMO forms are a passed down set of instructions that were not that good in the first place and over time have gotten worse.

And yes i've had some bad teachers and i've had some good ones.


What don't you get? Forms are not what you think they are for.

what don't i get? thats it theres nothing to get. I get no advancement from forms therefore I think they are a waste of time. It's my opinion if you don't like don't listen.
Forms are exactly what I think they are... an empty platform, teaching empty concepts.

if you do forms good for you. my opinion stands though. :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You are still basing your argument on a false as$umption as if it's truth.
What don't you get? Forms are not what you think they are for.
Either you can't read, can't understand, or you have been brainwashed by crap teachers for so long, you cannot let go of your belief system.


Not to defend HW108, but one thing he said did actually hold some truth:
95% of the teachers out there taught crap-and people lapped it up like it was gold. The problem is, nobody wants to be told that what they've been doing for their entire life is basically crap. I learned a heckuvalot of crap from very well-known, famous "Masters"-highly respected among their peers in the CMA community. We all did, and it's still going on.

So what exactly are the purpose of forms than? Catalog movements, solo training if you don't have partners or equipment. I get that. You make the statement that 95 % of the teachers out there taught crap and that you learned crap from so called Masters, what was the crap? Forms? You don't make a lot of sense in what you are trying to say. I will freely say forms are crap because they are of no positive consequence in regards to fighting. Seventeen years of training in TMA and combat sports tells me this. That does not mean they are not beneficial in some way to other people, but I don't care about other people and what they want, I care about what I want. It all depends on individuality and what one's expectations are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let this be made very clear, NO ONE is saying that you need forms to learn how to fight, that is not the case.
Many MA have no forms and produce great fighters.

I don't follow the common held belief that 95% ( or any %) of the TCMA teacher are crap, I think that people find what they are looking for.
Sure some of the blame falls on those that teach, but also on the students.

On a side note, IF 95% is crap than the blame can also fall on the 5% that isn't because "no one" knows where "the good stuff" is ( Not true) and those that have it, don't show it, so they are as much to blame for the crap as the proleferators of said crap.

Its nice to feel all warm and fuzzy because "we have the real kung fu", but that is a real pile of steaming horse****.

[TenTigers]

So what exactly are the purpose of forms than? Catalog movements, solo training if you don't have partners or equipment.
.

catalogue movements, partly.
Solo training if you don't have partners or equipment? Never. Again, that is crap info is due to crap teachers. Let it go.
If you don't have partners or equipment, you can't train fighting. Period.
Developmental forms are a completely different catagory-but these are very few in number, and you are not discussing these.

[TenTigers]

I don't follow the common held belief that 95% ( or any %) of the TCMA teacher are crap, I think that people find what they are looking for.
Sure some of the blame falls on those that teach, but also on the students.

On a side note, IF 95% is crap than the blame can also fall on the 5% that isn't because "no one" knows where "the good stuff" is ( Not true) and those that have it, don't show it, so they are as much to blame for the crap as the proleferators of said crap.

quoted for truth

there are some amazing pratitioners out there who for some reason, known only to themselves, chose to let their skill die with them.

[bawang]

the next generation of kung fu people need to make a difference and bring change
dont teach for greed dont keep bad students just to milk their monies

sifus in america need to beat their students with sticks and yell at them


my opinion is the state of kung fu today, its better to teach for free, then you can choose to teach who u want and not have to compromise

[lkfmdc]

Everyone is to blame

The frauds who come over and sell crap to unsuspecting students

The students who don't bother to check into things and blindly follow

The few good teachers, who as often as not, also engaged in some underhanded and slimy stuff... CMA is plagued with bad attitude

The movies and magazines that play into the fairy tales

The students who when confronted with truth, bury their heads in the sand

The americans who try to be more Chinese than the Chinese

but mostly I blame Sanjuro for not posting appropriate pictures

[sanjuro_ronin]

quoted for truth

there are some amazing pratitioners out there who for some reason, known only to themselves, chose to let their skill die with them.

Indeed and you and I, and others, are just as guilty as they are to a certain extent.
I know that I rarely give up and info other than what is common knowledge, sometimes because I don't want to ( greed, I learned what I learned via pain) and other times just because I think some people don't deserve it.
In both regards I am in error...

[TenTigers]

There are some skills that just take such a high degree of time and effort (gung-fu) that most people just cannot devote themselves to it. It is much easier to spend a few hours a day in hard training, learning a simple set of skills that will create an excellent fighter.
Why spend hours a day for years developing your Tiger Claw?
Why spend hours a day for years doing san-ti?
or five elements?
or walking the circle?
or iron palm?
or walking the horse?
or three power strike-with iron rings,sash weights,holding staffs, chains, etc?
or silk reeling exercises?
or belt cracking?
or chi-sao?
-along with drilling, hitting the bags, sparring?
How many hours are there in the day?
Who can devote their entire life to this kind of training?
besides recluses and Monks?

-unless you have met, seen, and felt someone who has, you will never see the validity of this.
-but..those days are gone.

We all can pretty much think of one icon in MA who's skill is so high, that it is truly mind boggling. There are very, very few of these.
But, as my teacher's teacher once said,"Sure, you may see my skill now. But you did not see what it took for me to get there."

[TenTigers]

"but mostly I blame Sanjuro for not posting appropriate pictures"

well, there you have it.
Truer words have never been said.

[lkfmdc]

I trained with a Lama Pai teacher who had the "min loi jam" cold energy.. it was an otherworldly experience... of all the people he trained, NONE of them could replicate it. Chan Tai San had some skills none of the clan ever got, but I can also tell you he paid a price in health in late years for some of that stuff. There are more than a few tales of iron palm masters who spent so much time on their iron plam their basic kung fu sucked....

Skills that require you start at around the age of 3, that you have a very special diet, that you are a virgin, etc...

Is this really what we should be bemoaning? :confused::eek:

There are plenty of simple, direct, FUNCTIONAL skills that are being lost because we have wankers looking for the secret chi blast

[bawang]

i disagree wit u tentigers those days are not long gone
if you advertise ur school as looking for hard working people then those kind of people will join

[TenTigers]

ISkills that require you start at around the age of 3, that you have a very special diet, that you are a virgin, etc...

well. I've been single for quite awhile now....
(I've officially become that, "creepy old guy" at the clubs..)

[TenTigers]

i disagree wit u tentigers those days are not long gone
if you advertise ur school as looking for hard working people then those kind of people will join
If I advertise for serious, hardworking people, who want to do the real, old skool Kung-Fu training...do you have any idea what kind of nuts are going to be walking in my doors?!! Sheeitt, Man. Just look at some of the freaks that are attracted to Kung-Fu in general.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone is to blame

The frauds who come over and sell crap to unsuspecting students

The students who don't bother to check into things and blindly follow

The few good teachers, who as often as not, also engaged in some underhanded and slimy stuff... CMA is plagued with bad attitude

The movies and magazines that play into the fairy tales

The students who when confronted with truth, bury their heads in the sand

The americans who try to be more Chinese than the Chinese

but mostly I blame Sanjuro for not posting appropriate pictures

I bow to your superiour wisdom and lineage !

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wWadSPsTL._SS500_.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I trained with a Lama Pai teacher who had the "min loi jam" cold energy.. it was an otherworldly experience... of all the people he trained, NONE of them could replicate it. Chan Tai San had some skills none of the clan ever got, but I can also tell you he paid a price in health in late years for some of that stuff. There are more than a few tales of iron palm masters who spent so much time on their iron plam their basic kung fu sucked....

Skills that require you start at around the age of 3, that you have a very special diet, that you are a virgin, etc...

Is this really what we should be bemoaning? :confused::eek:

There are plenty of simple, direct, FUNCTIONAL skills that are being lost because we have wankers looking for the secret chi blast

And that is truly the crux of the matter.
REAL Kung fu is painful and, to an extent, obsolete, for the vast majority.
That is why I tend to steer people to more functional (in the short term) systems.
Sure I get reamed for it by some but the fact is, it is the truth !
For the VAST MAJORITY of people, sport combat systems are the way to go.

[TenTigers]

Chan Pui once related to me a story about a guy who knelt outside his kwoon and banged his forehead into the ground until he was accepted as a student. There was blood all over. He was taken away by the police.
This is just because Chan put the word,"Wah Lum Kung-Fu Temple" on his sign.
Go to a Renn fair, (or Star Trek Convention) and strike up a conversation with someone about Kung-Fu, and then stand back and watch the fireworks begin...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chan Pui once related to me a story about a guy who knelt outside his kwoon and banged his forehead into the ground until he was accepted as a student. There was blood all over. He was taken away by the police.
This is just because Chan put the word,"Wah Lum Kung-Fu Temple" on his sign.
Go to a Renn fair, (or Star Trek Convention) and strike up a conversation with someone about Kung-Fu, and then stand back and watch the fireworks begin...

As we know, many people are attracted to the "larp" element in MA and not just eastern MA, as you mentioned there is also a element of that in western MA, even as far back as Spartan wanna-be larping (minus the bisexuality one hopes).

[lkfmdc]

Chan Pui once related to me a story about a guy who knelt outside his kwoon and banged his forehead into the ground until he was accepted as a student. There was blood all over. He was taken away by the police.
This is just because Chan put the word,"Wah Lum Kung-Fu Temple" on his sign.
Go to a Renn fair, (or Star Trek Convention) and strike up a conversation with someone about Kung-Fu, and then stand back and watch the fireworks begin...

In all honesty, I don't do much different now than when I was "NY Kung Fu" 15 years ago, except I have dropped the word "kung fu" from everything I do, and even then I still get some nut job who dug up a 1990's IKF issue and wants to learn some "secret skill" :rolleyes:

[goju]

really..umm ok now i know you are joking :D

and hows that?:D

[bawang]

As we know, many people are attracted to the "larp" element in MA and not just eastern MA, as you mentioned there is also a element of that in western MA, even as far back as Spartan wanna-be larping (minus the bisexuality one hopes).

if u dont teach forms it wouldnt be a problem
those type of people will get bored and leave 100% of the tiem

if people want to larp beat them with a stick and yell at them in chinese

[goju]

who said full force all the time? you can spar at 50% to work technique and still get the same benefits as you would from forms but also work in a partially stressful environment against a moving target

yes sometimes it all falls apart in sparing (usually when someone has their first fight because of the adrenaline dump) but I have yet to see anyone who is good at forms look half decent in a sparring match so your point is what?

again bas is a staunch beleiver in forms so is lyoto
they dont look good in a fight?

sheeesh

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Solo training if you don't have partners or equipment? Never. Again, that is crap info is due to crap teachers. Let it go.

LOL, dude, forms are garbage. That is my belief, so I don't need to let it go because I don't do forms. I was trying to understand where you were coming from on the 95 % of all Kung Fu is garbage theory. Not disagreeing necissarilly, just saying.:D

[Lucas]

again bas is a staunch beleiver in forms so is lyoto
they dont look good in a fight?

sheeesh

providing any sort of evidence to support the debate for form work is pointless man. it goes right out the window. people who dont like forms, and dont understand the value that can be derived from them will never, and i mean never ever change their stance.

for instance there is an interview where cung le says he does around 5 forms. hell thats more than i do anymore, and hed probably kick everyones ass on this board.

[bawang]

LOL, dude, forms are garbage. That

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SijKntA8pdw&feature=PlayList&p=05E7DFDE5927583B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=53

this is super manly how can u say its garbage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUCLwYAUQW0&feature=related SUPER MANLY

[goju]

what it is is this
you have a kung fu guy who was so into what he did
he thought he was learning "teh deadly"
he thought he could stop anyone with his "yellow dragon enters the forest" technique his sifu taught him
he thought his master could shoot magical chi balls out of his @ss and stop an attacker dead in his tracks with his "tiger stare"

then kung fu practioner encounters an average boxer/mma practioner from a local gym and gets schooled in sparring and his delusional chi wizard filled martial art world comes crumbling down

kung fu practioner quits kung fu and now learns the "real stuff" at an mma gym and now completely dismisses what he used to practice as a joke beause he wasnt skilled enough to use it

but little does he realize is all he has gone from is a delusional tma stylist to a delusional mma stylist

scientists have classified this at the "t. niehoff syndrome":D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

providing any sort of evidence to support the debate for form work is pointless man. it goes right out the window. people who dont like forms, and dont understand the value that can be derived from them will never, and i mean never ever change their stance.

for instance there is an interview where cung le says he does around 5 forms. hell thats more than i do anymore, and hed probably kick everyones ass on this board.

This is where I will split hairs. I did forms for years in Kung Fu and Karate, and saw no benefit to them that improved my sparring or fighting ability. You can argue and say I did them wrong, I had a bad teacher, or whatever else. The simple fact is every martial artist I met who was a good fighter and who did forms was a good fighter because of other aspects, natural athletitism, circuit training, sparring, or other such training methods.

Just because you say people don't understand their value does not mean they have never done forms. Many of us have and discovered how useless they are.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SijKntA8pdw&feature=PlayList&p=05E7DFDE5927583B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=53

this is super manly how can u say its garbage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUCLwYAUQW0&feature=related SUPER MANLY

LOL, you know, of all posters on this site, you entertain me the most.:D

[bawang]

i dont blame u
if someone learned from bad teacher its a very bad experience
personally i dont do forms either i do techniques, and only 5 or 6

forms was never a important part of training in traditional kung fu
doing flowery forms was a disgrace and shame in old times but now its something to be proud of
thsi makes me very mad i want to get drunk and smash a watermelon

[Lucas]

This is where I will split hairs. I did forms for years in Kung Fu and Karate, and saw no benefit to them that improved my sparring or fighting ability. You can argue and say I did them wrong, I had a bad teacher, or whatever else. The simple fact is every martial artist I met who was a good fighter and who did forms was a good fighter because of other aspects, natural athletitism, circuit training, sparring, or other such training methods.

Just because you say people don't understand their value does not mean they have never done forms. Many of us have and discovered how useless they are.

i dont disagree with you bro

a big issue with this type of debate here is that there are so many aspects to forms. the term 'forms' is way to generic imo. there are forms that are simply to develop specific things. some forms have no moving. such as standing meditation, it is a form. the only movement in some forms is expanding and contracting. yi quan for example. this doesnt deal with martial applications but the development and conditioning of targeted areas and aspects that are in direct connection with martial movements.

ive been in that same place man, learned a lot of forms and now ive dropped them all except a couple that i used when im alone. when im done with my bag, done with my weights, and have no one around to work with, ill work on something solo oriented.

also i really like weapons. weapons are a hobby for me. collecting as well as learning how to use them. im the type of person that if you have a weapon on your wall, you best know how to use it. so far the only people ive met to teach weapon teachniques do so through form. most of my weapon techniques have come from forms. some have been discovered through sparring. but pulling those techniques from the form and applying them in a weapon sparring session teaches me how to more properly apply those techs. the only problem is i never would even know those techs were it not for the forms that delivered them to me.

i have a very love hate relation ship with forms. many of them i think are void of real substance. some of them out there however do help people in their development.

[bawang]

if u look at yang style tai chi forms, in every move there is a thing done wrong ,i heard this was actually done on purpose

becaeful trying to learn from forms

[Lucas]

LOL, you know, of all posters on this site, you entertain me the most.:D

ya bawang cracks me up

[bawang]

thanx but plz look at those videos again
theyre super manly not like the limp dancing u see most people doing
most of the time i cringe at kung fu video on youtube but those ones made me nod and go "mmm yes"

when u do a form u should make a very constipated face and look crazy like you eat babies
nothing more manly than inviting spirits to possess your body and fighting imaginary people while looking like you need peptobismol with drums and pots banging

in china when traditional people perform they make a "I KILL YOU!!!!" face

[Lucas]

one of the major problems with forms imo is:

many of the techniques you will see in many sequence forms (especially long flowery ones, no need to even address contemporary forms) are simply unrealistic from a self defense standpoint.

a large percentage of the techniques like this you see require a very devoted long term conditioning program to even make some of these techniques usable. many times this conditioning requirement is simply not met.

and thats if you even find any value in sometimes highly abstract material.

[lkfmdc]

forms was never a important part of training in traditional kung fu
doing flowery forms was a disgrace and shame in old times but now its something to be proud of



this is 100% true and so few want to believe it... and many TCMA had almost no forms (a few definitely had NO FORMS AT ALL)

yet today people cling to the forms (a Buddhist lesson is in here, I bet!)

but in the end I am also going to say that forms are an outdated technology... a thing of the past...

[Lucas]

fomrs are like muskets. sure you can get some use out of them. they can shoot some stuff, but there is a bunch of bullcrap that comes along witht them.

wouldnt you rather an m4a1?

[Hardwork108]

what it is is this
you have a kung fu guy who was so into what he did
he thought he was learning "teh deadly"
he thought he could stop anyone with his "yellow dragon enters the forest" technique his sifu taught him
he thought his master could shoot magical chi balls out of his @ss and stop an attacker dead in his tracks with his "tiger stare"

then kung fu practioner encounters an average boxer/mma practioner from a local gym and gets schooled in sparring and his delusional chi wizard filled martial art world comes crumbling down

kung fu practioner quits kung fu and now learns the "real stuff" at an mma gym and now completely dismisses what he used to practice as a joke beause he wasnt skilled enough to use it

but little does he realize is all he has gone from is a delusional tma stylist to a delusional mma stylist

scientists have classified this at the "t. niehoff syndrome":D

A very good and intelligently put post.

I would say that you just hit the nail on the (knuckle?) head! Lol.

HW108:)

[Drake]

Another thread destroyed...

[goju]

i think its hard to find a good gym period wether you are looking for a traditional martial art or boxing or mma

iwas very dissapointed with the training and teaching of the mma gym i was at and it felt like i wasted a year of my life on that place with out any reward

largely i havent been impressed with mma gyms anymore than i have with traditonal schools

[Hardwork108]

Going back to the discussion at hand!!!



i think its hard to find a good gym period wether you are looking for a traditional martial art or boxing or mma

iwas very dissapointed with the training and teaching of the mma gym i was at and it felt like i wasted a year of my life on that place with out any reward

largely i havent been impressed with mma gyms anymore than i have with traditonal schools

I guess that you are right and it may be a general problem across the board, but IMHO, the worst to come out of this phenomenom are the TCMAs, followed by the Traditional Japanese (and Okinawan) martial arts. That is because their training is more complex and often encompasses unfamiliar (to the West), concepts, principles and philosophies.

HW108

[Frost]

i think its hard to find a good gym period wether you are looking for a traditional martial art or boxing or mma

iwas very dissapointed with the training and teaching of the mma gym i was at and it felt like i wasted a year of my life on that place with out any reward

largely i havent been impressed with mma gyms anymore than i have with traditonal schools


what are you looking for from your training? I ask simply because if its fighting then it is much easier to find a good MMA gym than a TCMA one, go to your local competitions see who is winning the fights and what clubs they come from. I wanted a good grappling/MMA school so I researched found out who was doing well in the regional and national competitions in my area they were taking part in and trained there, its really not that hard

[Frost]

this is 100% true and so few want to believe it... and many TCMA had almost no forms (a few definitely had NO FORMS AT ALL)

yet today people cling to the forms (a Buddhist lesson is in here, I bet!)

but in the end I am also going to say that forms are an outdated technology... a thing of the past...


this is so true, when the styles were actually used forms weren’t important we westerners made them important, hell I know of one very respected master in the UK that only used to teach 3 or 4 short forms (apart from the styles power development set which was obviously longer) and then had his guys actually fight every class, but over time this has grown to a dozen or so forms, all the original forms have changed and become longer, why because its what the students wanted

[Frost]

and hows that?:D



because with all due respect to Bas he would get beaten to within an inch or his life :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

That is very true and it actually applies to you, too. That is, an MMA-ist at heart is only going to see the MMA and the so called "functional" aspect while missing out on the deeper aspects that are the inherent part of TCMA training.

A cross trainer is going to cross train his heart out and will have an incomplete or partial understanding of what he has trained in. He will generally have a better understanding of the "simpler" and if he has trained the more complex ones, then most probably he will have a clueless notion of those.

Now, how can you find something that is not there or is hidden under a pile of "MA cr@p?

In the world that we live in, it is easier to find good kickboxing, BJJ, MT or even Karate schools, if one is "looking to find them". Not so easy to find genuine kung fu

The only deeper aspects of TCMA are what idiots put in there, be it buddhist dogma or philosophy and what not. This crap has no place in any martial art, so yes, MMA gets to the root of what martial arts should be about, combat. I find it humoring that people drone on about TCMA having all these uber secret deadly techniques that one only need train 25 years to be proficient at.:rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

what it is is this
you have a kung fu guy who was so into what he did
he thought he was learning "teh deadly"
he thought he could stop anyone with his "yellow dragon enters the forest" technique his sifu taught him
he thought his master could shoot magical chi balls out of his @ss and stop an attacker dead in his tracks with his "tiger stare"

then kung fu practioner encounters an average boxer/mma practioner from a local gym and gets schooled in sparring and his delusional chi wizard filled martial art world comes crumbling down

kung fu practioner quits kung fu and now learns the "real stuff" at an mma gym and now completely dismisses what he used to practice as a joke beause he wasnt skilled enough to use it

but little does he realize is all he has gone from is a delusional tma stylist to a delusional mma stylist

scientists have classified this at the "t. niehoff syndrome":D

Not all of us can be uber deadly 7th degree Goju Karate Masters:D

[Hardwork108]

this is so true, when the styles were actually used forms weren’t important we westerners made them important, hell I know of one very respected master in the UK that only used to teach 3 or 4 short forms (apart from the styles power development set which was obviously longer) and then had his guys actually fight every class, but over time this has grown to a dozen or so forms, all the original forms have changed and become longer, why because its what the students wanted

Yes, it is said that in the old days there were TCMAs that used very few forms. That continues today with styles such as Wing Chun, that have only 3 main unarmed forms. However, there are people here in these forums, who say that even those forms are "useless". Some of those very people refer to themselves as Wing Chuners, Lol.

Generally speaking, there are other southern styles that have relatively few forms as well. Others have forms added to them as the years have gone by through actual development and enrichment but often, as you very correctly pointed out, for money making purposes. No one is denying that as that is part of the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom itself.

The fact is that you can sometimes find the essence of a given fighting style in its forms. As Master Wong Kiew Kit puts it in one of his books, "forms are the cristallized fighting knowledge of old masters who developed a given style". Or something to that effect. I don't have the book with me at the moment to quote him exactly.

Criticizing forms because they are "useless for fighting", is a very superficial way of looking at such methodologies and shows, dare I say, a lack of understanding regarding these complex arts as regards the various levels/aspects of training.

One single forms can contain different interpretations of a single technique that become more apparent when the student advances. That same form may contain internal elements, including in some cases, the so called, Dynamic Tension methodology and general chi kung aspects.

Externally, the same form may teach and embed other more external concepts and principles into the student's psyche.

IN short, forms are just another teaching tool. If a teacher is lousy then he will teach you the forms that are "useless". The same is true if he is teaching you "useless" Iron Palm or "useless" chi sao and so on, and we are back again to the fact that there are extremely few schools where you can learn proper TCMAs from proper sifus/masters.

Continuing on. In arts such as Tai Chi Chuan, forms training will help to create flow, relaxedness and consequently the chi flow that is required for martial ( and health) aspects.

As others have pointed out forms are also a great way of passing down the curriculum of various TCMAS in question, as well!

Forms also develop the body and train your muscle memory for given aspects of a particular style. They can have cardiovascular benefit as well as training the body's flexibility.

Yes, there can be many dimensions to a single form.

Blindly taking out the forms out together with other traditional training methodology would turn a given kung fu style into nothing but Glorified Kickboxing!

HW108

[Hardwork108]

The only deeper aspects of TCMA are what idiots put in there, be it buddhist dogma or philosophy and what not.
Deeper aspects exist in many areas of life. Dogma and deeper aspects are not always mutually inclusive.


This crap has no place in any martial art, so yes, MMA gets to the root of what martial arts should be about,combat
It is "crap" only because over 95% of what is being taught out there is "crap". That reflects 95% of this forum's "crap" understanding of TCMAs.


I find it humoring that people drone on about TCMA having all these uber secret deadly techniques
I don't recall mentioning the TCMA "secret deadly techniques" in my recent posts.


that one only need train 25 years to be proficient at.:rolleyes:

There are styles of kung fu that will take a decade or more to be proficient in. There are others that will not, eg. Wing Chun, SPM, Wu Zhu Kuan, etc. that does not mean that you can't train them to higher levels of knowledge for decades but you will need a relatively short period of time to make them useful for fighting.

Of course, having said that, I agree that methodologies such as MMA and Kickboxing can give you fighting skills relatively quickly. It depends on what you are looking for and your particular "vision" as rega Mrds MA training.

HW108

[bawang]

It is "crap" only because over 95% of what is being taught out there is "crap". That reflects 95% of this forum's "crap" understanding of TCMAs.



most of kung fu taught in the western world is wing chun
wow what a coincidence

[Dragonzbane76]

learning to dance... that's what I look for in a MA. :0

[Iron_Eagle_76]

There are styles of kung fu that will take a decade or more to be proficient in. There are others that will not, eg. Wing Chun, SPM, Wu Zhu Kuan, etc. that does not mean that you can't train them to higher levels of knowledge for decades but you will need a relatively short period of time to make them useful for fighting.

Of course, having said that, I agree that methodologies such as MMA and Kickboxing can give you fighting skills relatively quickly. It depends on what you are looking for and your particular "vision" as rega Mrds MA training.

Hypothetical Situation:

You have one guy who trains in Kung Fu, a style you claim takes ten years to be proficient at.

You have another guy who trains Muay Thai or Kickboxing for ten years, of which within six months to a year, this person should be sufficient enough to establish decent fighting skills.

After ten years, who will be the better fighter? My bet is on the Muay Thai guy who has been good almost since the beginning and just progressively got better, as opposed to the Kung Fu guy who suddenly after ten years of training can use what he learned.;):D

[Drake]

It seems that you have not learned your lesson from your undignified exit from the "Dynamic Tension in Forms" thread. You entered, you bad mouthed my contribution, you were ignored by almost everyone and then your agenda became transparent. Then you high tailed it out of there as quickly as you had appeared, without having contributed to the subject matter of the thread.

Now you are continuing the same agenda through your deceitful behavior here. Well go crazy if you wish...

The funny thing about this lovely reply is...you are proving my point. Please, please continue.

[Frost]

Principles can be passed down via other methods other than forms. Boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ, wrestling all manage to pass down the principles that make their arts effective without the need of forms.

You mentioned tai Chi, does anyone know what the actual original yang form looks like? I have seen several versions of it, all claiming to be the original, if no one even knows what the original forms looked like how do we know its worth practising?

[lkfmdc]

You mentioned tai Chi, does anyone know what the actual original yang form looks like?



yeah, I have seen the original form, and it is called CHEN STYLE! and there are significant issues with Yang and all the versions that came after it....

but people here never let the facts get in the way of their dicussions :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah, I have seen the original form, and it is called CHEN STYLE! and there are significant issues with Yang and all the versions that came after it....

but people here never let the facts get in the way of their dicussions :rolleyes:

Quite correct, the Taiji of the Chen village is the original and, it can be deabted, more "functional", but I am bias so...
It have seen the original Yang form, the one before it was "pussified" and it isfar more "chen" than it is "yang".

[Hardwork108]

most of kung fu taught in the western world is wing chun
wow what a coincidence
And yes, the 95% crap goes for Wing Chun too. If you think that I am one of those who goes around saying that Wing Chun is the best style of kung fu, then you are wrong. Furthermore, Wing Chun is not the only style of kung fu that I train!

It may be you who thinks that 100% of WC is crap? If so then, that is not fair either as there I is good Wing Chun out there just as there is good Mantis, good tai chi and others. The problem is that they are in that illusive 5% of the kwoons.

HW108

[Frost]

yeah, I have seen the original form, and it is called CHEN STYLE! and there are significant issues with Yang and all the versions that came after it....

but people here never let the facts get in the way of their dicussions :rolleyes:


Thanks for that :confused: I wasn't going to mention chen style as I haven't seen much of it

I have however seen two versions of the original yang form, both different from each other, and both which differ greatly from what is taught these days

I have also seen differences in other forms from teacher to teacher, so how do we know which is the original version and which translation of the form is correct?

[Frost]

And yes, the 95% crap goes for Wing Chun too. If you think that I am one of those who goes around saying that Wing Chun is the best style of kung fu, then you are wrong. Furthermore, Wing Chun is not the only style of kung fu that I train!

It may be you who thinks that 100% of WC is crap? If so then, that is not fair either as there I is good Wing Chun out there just as there is good Mantis, good tai chi and others. The problem is that they are in that illusive 5% of the kwoons.

HW108

are you sure its not higher than 95% because I can't remember the last time I saw a fight when the coconscious was we were seeing anything other that glorified kick boxing or very bad kung fu

[Hardwork108]

After ten years, who will be the better fighter? My bet is on the Muay Thai guy who has been good almost since the beginning and just progressively got better, as opposed to the Kung Fu guy who suddenly after ten years of training can use what he learned.;):D

I suppose that this hypothetical situation assumes that the kung fu man has studied in genuine TCMA school.

OK, are you assuming that the kung fu guy will have trained forms and stances for 10 years? Have you considered 10 years of "dynamic tension" training, combined with other Iron skills, hard fighting training (yes we do that too) as well as mastery of advanced fighting principles and grappling and take down techniques that are inherent in many kung fu styles, but most of which are not trained in most of the "MacDonald" kung fu schools?

Ok, if after 10 years of hard fighting/training the MT guy is still in one piece and is not suffering from chronic injuries (see, I can have a cliché view of things too.;)) then he meets the kung fu guy then they fight as they would in the street and not the ring. Knowing what I know about some TCMA styles then my money would be on the kung fu guy.

Of course, in fights one will never know because as you probably know anything can happen, but still my money would be on the kung fu guy.

HW108

[goju]

Not all of us can be uber deadly 7th degree Goju Karate Masters:D

i am 30th degree in goju ryu thank you very much:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks for that :confused: I wasn't going to mention chen style as I haven't seen much of it

I have however seen two versions of the original yang form, both different from each other, and both which differ greatly from what is taught these days

I have also seen differences in other forms from teacher to teacher, so how do we know which is the original version and which translation of the form is correct?

Ah dude, you get what you are looking for.
My old Chen teacher taught the forms two ways, for those doing "tai ji" and for those looking for a functional system of H2H fighting.
Same form though, just different (supplementary) exercises, more focus on "jing" and "shaking" and more contact drills.

[goju]

because with all due respect to Bas he would get beaten to within an inch or his life :)

hey im a huge fedor fan but the guy is lacking in stand up and well bas isnt

i love watching the comments of his last fight with the ko where people were trying to break it down like they were trying to crack the da vinci code

FOR ****S SAKE ALL IT WAS A HAYMAKER!!!!:D

there i said it:D
now cue four pages of e-***** measuring:D

[Hardwork108]

i am 30th degree in goju ryu thank you very much:D

Hey lets get together and open a MA school. We will call it a no forms/kata traditional school. We will just have the students in none stop sessions of weight training, sparring and more weight training and sparring and so on. It is common knowledge that when MA students fight and get hurt or hurt another they feel that they are learning to fight. They will also impress each other with their newly gained muscles. With the combined effect of the above they will begin to have the illusion that this is all they need to learn to fight.

Marketing wise all we need is to give the our school "the modern way is better" and/or the "functional" tag. We can hire T. Niehoff for our marketing. I tell you we can't go wrong. We will have knuckleheads lining up to pay to train with us and while they are giving each other further brain damage, you and I will be laughing all the way to the bank.:D

HW108

[Hardwork108]

Guys,

I am just being light hearted so please don't get your MMA shorts in a twist. :)

[Hardwork108]

Ah dude, you get what you are looking for.
My old Chen teacher taught the forms two ways, for those doing "tai ji" and for those looking for a functional system of H2H fighting.
Most people who understand the TCMAs see tai ji as a functional H2H fighting system. It is not the system but the fact that over 95% of tai chi schools are crap (actually in the case of tai chi, I would hazard a guess that over 97% of schools are crap).

HW108

[Frost]

hey im a huge fedor fan but the guy is lacking in stand up and well bas isnt

i love watching the comments of his last fight with the ko where people were trying to break it down like they were trying to crack the da vinci code

FOR ****S SAKE ALL IT WAS A HAYMAKER!!!!:D

there i said it:D
now cue four pages of e-***** measuring:D



Umm his stand up is much better than bas’s, since he has taken apart a K1 xhamp in MMA and Bas was getting beaten up by a pro wrestler in his UFC debut, now cue the arguments :D

Bas only ever had 2 or three fights outside of Japan where the results of his early fights were probably decided on before he got in the ring :o) hell in his first UFC fight against a Japanese pro wrestler he only managed a win after two controversial stand ups from big John.

[sanjuro_ronin]

hey im a huge fedor fan but the guy is lacking in stand up and well bas isnt

i love watching the comments of his last fight with the ko where people were trying to break it down like they were trying to crack the da vinci code

FOR ****S SAKE ALL IT WAS A HAYMAKER!!!!:D

there i said it:D
now cue four pages of e-***** measuring:D

Dude, that is how "combat" sambo guys hit, large, looping overhands and 'wide" hooks, it falls well into their throwing arsenal.

[Hardwork108]

Principles can be passed down via other methods other than forms. Boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ, wrestling all manage to pass down the principles that make their arts effective without the need of forms.
Yet there are modern MMA ists who come from traditional backgrounds and still practice their forms.

I agree with you in that principles can be passed down other ways. However, I do believe that for the more complex arts, forms training is a valid way of teaching and passing down principles. Add to that the so called "dynamic tension" elements within some kung fu styles, then you have a valid methodology in forms training.

HW108

[Frost]

How about we open a school claiming to teach ancient secrets that will help you defeat a larger stronger opponent easily , have them only practise forms and techniques against thin air so they never know how bad they are, when asked if they can spar tell them either a) no because they have not trained long enough and it take years of study to move the right kung fu way or b) tell them their style is too deadly to spar and not to worry as the styles great grand master was an ass kicker in china so by default if they follow his path unquestioningly they too will too be great….. B is also a good answer as it also gets you out of the tricky question of why if the style you are teaching is so good has no one ever won a tournament using it…. :D

……..and to make even more money when they have learned all the forms show them the exact same forms but now tell them they are about to get the secret power behind the moves, add some tension here, some shaking there and hay presto you can keep them in the dark for another few years :cool:

Oh wait too late I think we have been beaten to the punch already :eek:

[goju]

what are you looking for from your training? I ask simply because if its fighting then it is much easier to find a good MMA gym than a TCMA one, go to your local competitions see who is winning the fights and what clubs they come from. I wanted a good grappling/MMA school so I researched found out who was doing well in the regional and national competitions in my area they were taking part in and trained there, its really not that hard

i went to a i guess you could say well respected mma gym( duane ludwig and shane carwin trained there)

when i joined they told me on average before you get your first fight they will work with you for a year /year and a half sounded good to me and after they watched me work out and spar they were impressed with my stand up and just wanted to work on my lacking ground game

so i show up every training session its easy stuff and i am stuck with the average joes and soccer moms i figure they will bump me up to harder training in a few short months( as they told me)

months keep passing by and nothing then i hear that in reality they wont let you fight until you have years of bjj under your belt with them(likely would have had to have gotten my brown belt) because its the deadly stuff and you cant compete with it until you have done it for years


this is the same thing with the magical ten years of training in kung fu that transforms you into a killing machine at the end:D

what made it more rediculous is i won most of the sparing matches with their amatuer kickboxers so you would think at least they would get me some mt matches in the mean time i am learning my grappling...but again no

i showed i was serious about wanting to fight, was there every day to train and asked them to give me more of a work out
but again they never did

this ultimately turned me off all together with martial art gyms and is the reason why i train alone now i am not going to kiss anyone arse and beg them to teach me or have them give me the run around again

[Frost]

BJJ is as complex an art as you will find, there are different pressures depending on the position you are in you can use, you can pulse, grind, explode be heavy or light etc all the wonderful things you find in any other art yet they manage fine without forms, they also manage to develop tremendous sport specific strength without forms (try gripping with a BJJ black belt it sucks their pulling strength and grip strength is stupid)

[sanjuro_ronin]

i went to a i guess you could say well respected mma gym( duane ludwig and shane carwin trained there)

when i joined they told me on average before you get your first fight they will work with you for a year /year and a half sounded good to me and after they watched me work out and spar they were impressed with my stand up and just wanted to work on my lacking ground game

so i show up every training session its easy stuff and i am stuck with the average joes and soccer moms i figure they will bump me up to harder training in a few short months( as they told me)

months keep passing by and nothing then i hear that in reality they wont let you fight until you have years of bjj under your belt with them(likely would have had to have gotten my brown belt) because its the deadly stuff and you cant compete with it until you have done it for years


this is the same thing with the magical ten years of training in kung fu that transforms you into a killing machine at the end:D

what made it more rediculous is i won most of the sparing matches with their amatuer kickboxers so you would think at least they would get me some mt matches in the mean time i am learning my grappling...but again no

i showed i was serious about wanting to fight, was there every day to train and asked them to give me more of a work out
but again they never did

this ultimately turned me off all together with martial art gyms and is the reason why i train alone now i am not going to kiss anyone arse and beg them to teach me or have them give me the run around again

What was the name of the gym Bro?

[goju]

Dude, that is how "combat" sambo guys hit, large, looping overhands and 'wide" hooks, it falls well into their throwing arsenal.

lol isnt arvloski a sambo guy? he doesnt punch like he is throwing a pitch in a baseball game

[goju]

What was the name of the gym Bro?

t'sko they have since renamed their gym grudge fighting because i think they went bankrupt

the owner was trevor wittman who was the coach with rasha evans team on this season of tuf

[Frost]

i went to a i guess you could say well respected mma gym( duane ludwig and shane carwin trained there)

when i joined they told me on average before you get your first fight they will work with you for a year /year and a half sounded good to me and after they watched me work out and spar they were impressed with my stand up and just wanted to work on my lacking ground game

so i show up every training session its easy stuff and i am stuck with the average joes and soccer moms i figure they will bump me up to harder training in a few short months( as they told me)

months keep passing by and nothing then i hear that in reality they wont let you fight until you have years of bjj under your belt with them(likely would have had to have gotten my brown belt) because its the deadly stuff and you cant compete with it until you have done it for years


this is the same thing with the magical ten years of training in kung fu that transforms you into a killing machine at the end:D

what made it more rediculous is i won most of the sparing matches with their amatuer kickboxers so you would think at least they would get me some mt matches in the mean time i am learning my grappling...but again no

i showed i was serious about wanting to fight, was there every day to train and asked them to give me more of a work out
but again they never did

this ultimately turned me off all together with martial art gyms and is the reason why i train alone now i am not going to kiss anyone arse and beg them to teach me or have them give me the run around again

sucks that happened mate, I know we don’t see eye to eye very often but it still sucks

sounds like you may or may have not found a good gym, but it had crappy coaches… keep looking find somewhere that puts guys into amateur competitions on a regularly basis, or hell just find a grappling place if your stand up is good enough and work on that and enter the comps on your own.

[Hardwork108]

How about we open a school claiming to teach ancient secrets that will help you defeat a larger stronger opponent easily , have them only practise forms and techniques against thin air so they never know how bad they are, when asked if they can spar tell them either a) no because they have not trained long enough and it take years of study to move the right kung fu way or b) tell them their style is too deadly to spar and not to worry as the styles great grand master was an ass kicker in china so by default if they follow his path unquestioningly they too will too be great….. B is also a good answer as it also gets you out of the tricky question of why if the style you are teaching is so good has no one ever won a tournament using it…. :D

……..and to make even more money when they have learned all the forms show them the exact same forms but now tell them they are about to get the secret power behind the moves, add some tension here, some shaking there and hay presto you can keep them in the dark for another few years :cool:

Oh wait too late I think we have been beaten to the punch already :eek:

Of course we have been beaten to the punch not by least by some of those 95% crap schools I have been talking about all this time, Lol!

[Frost]

lol isnt arvloski a sambo guy? he doesnt punch like he is throwing a pitch in a baseball game


Fedor was a combat sambo guy, they strike as well as grappleand they all punch in a similar way, arvloski was i think a kick boxer/boxer with a normal grappling sambo background

[Frost]

Dude, that is how "combat" sambo guys hit, large, looping overhands and 'wide" hooks, it falls well into their throwing arsenal.


yep when ever Fedor's style is brought up people say but Russian boxers don't punch like that... which is true but the combat sambo guys do and fedors over hand right to a takedown is a thing of beauty :D

[goju]

Fedor was a combat sambo guy, they strike as well as grappleand they all punch in a similar way, arvloski was i think a kick boxer/boxer with a normal grappling sambo background

ah i see:D

[Dragonzbane76]

i went to a i guess you could say well respected mma gym( duane ludwig and shane carwin trained there)

when i joined they told me on average before you get your first fight they will work with you for a year /year and a half sounded good to me and after they watched me work out and spar they were impressed with my stand up and just wanted to work on my lacking ground game

so i show up every training session its easy stuff and i am stuck with the average joes and soccer moms i figure they will bump me up to harder training in a few short months( as they told me)

months keep passing by and nothing then i hear that in reality they wont let you fight until you have years of bjj under your belt with them(likely would have had to have gotten my brown belt) because its the deadly stuff and you cant compete with it until you have done it for years


this is the same thing with the magical ten years of training in kung fu that transforms you into a killing machine at the end

what made it more rediculous is i won most of the sparing matches with their amatuer kickboxers so you would think at least they would get me some mt matches in the mean time i am learning my grappling...but again no

i showed i was serious about wanting to fight, was there every day to train and asked them to give me more of a work out
but again they never did

this ultimately turned me off all together with martial art gyms and is the reason why i train alone now i am not going to kiss anyone arse and beg them to teach me or have them give me the run around again

sounds like you need to shop around more. You know you can always do some amature fights on your own. Get a feel for it and then expand out. Some MMA gyms are sh!t I agree, but like I said you need to shop around more.

[goju]

or hell just find a grappling place if your stand up is good enough and work on that and enter the comps on your own.

yeah thats likely what i am gonna have to do or say screw it and just do kickboxing

[Hardwork108]

BJJ is as complex an art as you will find, there are different pressures depending on the position you are in you can use, you can pulse, grind, explode be heavy or light etc all the wonderful things you find in any other art yet they manage fine without forms, they also manage to develop tremendous sport specific strength without forms (try gripping with a BJJ black belt it sucks their pulling strength and grip strength is stupid)
You will find that sport oriented martial arts are less likely to use form training. You use BJJ as an example of a complex art that does not use forms. I can give you a hundred if not hundreds of TCMAs not to mention JCMAs that use forms training as a fundamental part of their methodology.

So they are all wrong and have been wrong for 1000s of years, even if they may have been shorter forms in many cases. Wouldn't it be interesting for the more scholarly MMA practitioners to actually investigate and see why forms have been used in such way.

That is if it interests them and it should because if they are willing to blindly criticize such training while not having any fundemental understanding of TCMAs except for the usual "i have done ´ kung fu' for 15 zillion years and it is crap" cliché.

HW108

[goju]

sounds like you need to shop around more. You know you can always do some amature fights on your own. Get a feel for it and then expand out. Some MMA gyms are sh!t I agree, but like I said you need to shop around more.

well the closest gym next to the one i went too was nate marquarts place and he is afilliated with t'sko so i am royally screwed lol:D

[Frost]

yeah thats likely what i am gonna have to do or say screw it and just do kickboxing


what do you want to compete in? the answer to that question will probably tell you where to train

[goju]

Hey lets get together and open a MA school. We will call it a no forms/kata traditional school. We will just have the students in none stop sessions of weight training, sparring and more weight training and sparring and so on. It is common knowledge that when MA students fight and get hurt or hurt another they feel that they are learning to fight. They will also impress each other with their newly gained muscles. With the combined effect of the above they will begin to have the illusion that this is all they need to learn to fight.

Marketing wise all we need is to give the our school "the modern way is better" and/or the "functional" tag. We can hire T. Niehoff for our marketing. I tell you we can't go wrong. We will have knuckleheads lining up to pay to train with us and while they are giving each other further brain damage, you and I will be laughing all the way to the bank.:D

HW108

lol
no we will have them just hit a tire with a sledge hammer and make loud manly grunts
everyone knows that is the key to becoming a good fighter!

god i have been reading to many of bawangs posts:D

[goju]

what do you want to compete in? the answer to that question will probably tell you where to train

well honestly since i am coming into grappling so late it may be a good idea to do kickboxing or at least do that for along time

if chuck norris's wcl is still around i know they have a team somewhere in my state and that would likely be one of the best ways to go since we seem to have such a lack of quality mma gyms where i live

[Frost]

well honestly since i am coming into grappling so late it may be a good idea to do kickboxing or at least do that for along time

if chuck norris's wcl is still around i know they have a team somewhere in my state and that would likely be one of the best ways to go since we seem to have such a lack of quality mma gyms where i live

How old are you? you will always have a disadvantage against wrestlers who satrted in high school but hell so do all the european fighters lol , but a good ground game cam make up for this and does not take that long to acquire especially if you are prepared to work hard and train everyday like you did at the MMA school

[goju]

How old are you? you will always have a disadvantage against wrestlers who satrted in high school but hell so do all the european fighters lol , but a good ground game cam make up for this and does not take that long to acquire especially if you are prepared to work hard and train everyday like you did at the MMA school

going to be 21 at the end of december:D
oh yeah i am more than prepared to work hard its just so hard to find like minded people too train with who are the same way and will stick with it

and i cant spar myself:D

[Hardwork108]

well honestly since i am coming into grappling so late it may be a good idea to do kickboxing or at least do that for along time

if chuck norris's wcl is still around i know they have a team somewhere in my state and that would likely be one of the best ways to go since we seem to have such a lack of quality mma gyms where i live

Hey Goju,

There is at least one lineage of traditional goju ryu that train grappling and even ground fighting. I don' t know if they have that many schools or any near you but this lineage is worth investigating. :)

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

well honestly since i am coming into grappling so late it may be a good idea to do kickboxing or at least do that for along time

if chuck norris's wcl is still around i know they have a team somewhere in my state and that would likely be one of the best ways to go since we seem to have such a lack of quality mma gyms where i live

I am not a big fan of MMA, just a personal view.
I would suggest taking up Judo to supplement your Goju, try to find a Judo school that does an even blend of standing and ground grappling.

[Dragonzbane76]

So they are all wrong and have been wrong for 1000s of years, even if they may have been shorter forms in many cases. Wouldn't it be interesting for the more scholarly MMA practitioners to actually investigate and see why forms have been used in such way.

sorry to burst your bubble but forms are a more "modern" method of "training".
there is no 1000's of years behind it. And wouldn't it be interesting for the more scholarly TMA to actually train in something resistant than to go around hitting 'air' and believeing that all fights will stay on there feet?


That is if it interests them and it should because if they are willing to blindly criticize such training while not having any fundemental understanding of TCMAs except for the usual "i have done ´ kung fu' for 15 zillion years and it is crap" cliché.

cliche's usually have some true behind them. forms imo is not mechanically sound for fighting, when you depend upon passed down knowledge that is probably wrong to begin with and getting worse with every generation to end a fight then you have problems.

[goju]

oh yeah i have learned some grappling from goju ryu i could go a variety of different armbars and chokes prior to doing bjj


yeah i am not a big fan of mma either lol what appeals too me is the limited amount of rules and protective gear and it allows you to bring a wider range of tools to the table than anything else

yep your reading my mind i am looking exactly for a good judo school actually i may have found one that looks like they take their training seriously so i may be in luck i will find out soon(fingers crossed)

i fell in love with judo since a friend of mine first showed me some of it a few years ago just havent gotten the chance to train it with any judoka seriously and i defintely would perfer the style over bjj which isnt really my cup of tea

anyway i am going out thanks for the advice guys