Do women get the short end of the stick in martial arts?

[SavvySavage]

I've seen men and women training and the truth I've seen is that men don't go as hard on women as they do on other men. This is especially apparent during sparring where hits are delivered with almost no power. And then there's the breasts factor: Even the cool women, who act like the guys and grunt and do kung fu, get offended if hit in the boobs too often.

If a women has big breasts how the heck am I supposed to not hit her there? Ok here's the solution: hit her in the head. Then Sifu smacks me for being a d-bag and being too rough.

I don't think women can adequately learn martial arts in this kind of environment. I witnessed a sparring match once where a man and woman were squaring off. The woman managed to attack the arms of her opponent while the man just blocked her attacks. He didnt attack once. I also witnessed a woman say that she beat people in chi sao because she was able to uproot them. Close viewing of the video recording(if one existed) would show that the men she rolled with did not make one attempt to hit her. This gave her a false confidence.

What can we do? Put women together to train? I don't think that's a good idea because then the pattycaking will be doubled.

How can we help women learn martial arts better?

[GreenCloudCLF]

First: I think your statements are generalizations and do not apply to all men/women in MA.

Second: Many schools have women-only classes to allow for a more comfortable environment. These schools may also offer them access to the "men's" ie. regular, classes if they wish.

Third: Last time I trained I punched a woman in my class in the face because she didn't evade as the drill required. She got upset at me...Told me if her boyfriend was in the class (he is a student too) he would have attacked me. I assured her he would have lost. Then I suggested that she go to the women's only class.

[SavvySavage]

Of course I'm making generalizations! If I had a penny for every generalization posted on this forum I'd be a a millionaire!

I think my generalization applies to most situations involving women in martial arts. A few tough women that train hard with the boys doesn't speak for the majority.

I think your third point was kind of aholeish. There's hardcore training that goes hand in hand with respect for training brothers and sisters. If you had clocked her while sparring that's one thing but to hit someone during drilling is different. IMO that's not okay. It sounds like macho BS if you ask me. I don't know any guy who would enjoy getting punched square in the face during technique drilling.

[Water Dragon]

Everything is relative. This girl got knocked the fugg out, but I'd be willing to bet she can handle herself pretty well against your average Joe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivKYP6F1_UM

[GreenCloudCLF]

Of course I'm making generalizations! If I had a penny for every generalization posted on this forum I'd be a a millionaire!

I think my generalization applies to most situations involving women in martial arts. A few tough women that train hard with the boys doesn't speak for the majority.

I think your third point was kind of aholeish. There's hardcore training that goes hand in hand with respect for training brothers and sisters. If you had clocked her while sparring that's one thing but to hit someone during drilling is different. IMO that's not okay. It sounds like macho BS if you ask me. I don't know any guy who would enjoy getting punched square in the face during technique drilling.

In 11 years of training I have rarely hit someone during drills. My reaction was based on my apologizing an her launching into a "my boyfriend will kick your ass" diatribe. MA is fighting, there is bound to be contact, accidental or intentional (sparring). Get over it and move on.

[Water Dragon]

I've trained with women in both BJJ and Judo. The basic rule when going up against a woman is to use technique, not strength. Most women can get to a point where they can handle strength as well, but that takes a lot of time and workl. Your job as her training partner is to help her get there.

That's if she's serious. If she's not serious, she's wasting both of your time. It's no different than when a guy does it.

[Oso]

what a dumb topic.

pound for pound few women can compete with the strength of men the same size...it's in the genetics.

lots of corollaries that go along with that simple, obvious, fact which result in most women not being able to fight toe to toe with men...in general.:rolleyes: of course there are exceptions but not enough for it to even be a topic of conversation.

that's why, professionally, men fight men and women fight women within a weight class based system.

does that mean women shouldn't train with men? Absolutely not. Men are who they will be most threatened by physically and they need to get real about the fact that they are going to have to be technically far better to beat a guy of even the same weight much less someone bigger. but, men should not give them a break IF they are of a similar size...a 200# guy giving a 110# woman a super hard time in class is just dumb until she has trained up some...even then, most 200# guys who have trained will stuff most 110# woman even if she is trained...just like he will probably stuff a 110# guy with training...a women who is serious about fight training or self defense training needs to steadily attempt her skills against heavier and heavier guys...but, she'll probably max out against a guy 20-30% heavier if she has the edge in skill.

that's why, imho, 'women's only' self defense classes are a very closed loop solution to women learning how to defend themselves. Maybe as a first step to get them comfortable but if they never take it beyond that and really try to 'fight' a man of equal or bigger size they are clueless.

[TenTigers]

if hardcore training goes hand in hand with respect to your brothers and sisters, then the same thing applies when you are working with a woman. Treat her as you would a man who you outweigh by such and such pounds. Take into consideration the difference in body mass and power, and adjust yourself accordingly.
"Hok Yun, Hok Yee, Hok Gung-Fu"-learn compassion, learn loyalty before learning Gung-Fu.
If a person lacks compassion and loyalty, then they are not a good si hing dai. They are not a good training brother. They do not care for their trainig brothers/sisters' welfare, and are selfish with their training and knowledge. You are supposed to help your fellow students develop their Gung-Fu and be a partner, not an adversary.

A good training partner can adjust the level of control and contact to fit the needs of their partner. It is like a volume control on your TV or sound system.

People who say they cannot control this, don't want to.
People who say they don't realize how hard they are hitting in practice are lying, or lack the mental, physical, and emotional control to be studying Martial Arts. period.
If you did not have the control, then every time you tried to put a fork in your mouth to eat, you'd impale yourself. Every time you brushed an eyelash from your eye, you would gouge your eye out. And yet.. How is this any different?

An alligator has a jaw strength to snap a 2x4 in half, hundreds of lbs per sq inch. Yet, a mother alligator carries its young in her jaws, and has a brain the size of a walnut!
So, what are you saying?
The student who cannot adjust his mental and physical control to work with another either has a severe mental issue, or a severe physical issue. It is plain selfishness, and ego.

That, and women should wear chest protectors, or protective bras if they want to spar. Getting hit in the chest is inevitable, and proper procautions should be taken. Again-this is a sign of irresponsibility, on the student's part, and that of the teacher who allows this to occur in his school.

[Shaolinlueb]

my advice:

get over it.

they are there for training, so yes, they are going to get smacked in the head and punched in the tats.

just don't be a douche bag and think they are the tough guy that can beat up on women. its good to show them strength and what they are against, but don't be a douche.

[Taryn P.]

If I get grabbed or hit too hard in the chest by accident, it's not that big of a deal- any bigger than if I grab or hit you in the groin too hard by accident. "Oops, sorry," and move on. It happens quite a bit.

If I got the sense that someone was going _out of his way_ to contact my chest, that's an inappropriate problem that would need to be addressed immediately. Any of my teachers would boot a student straight out the door for pulling that sort of garbage.

I don't expect others to "go easy" on me just because I'm female, but I do expect them to remember that they have twelve inches and a hundred pounds on me, and challenge me at an appropriate level instead of simply using their greater mass to pound the crap out of me. There's just no point to that, for either of us. But it's not about genitalia. If you were working with a very small-statured male student, you'd have to make the same adjustment. You have to adjust your work with fellow students according to discrepancies in height, weight, muscle mass and experience/level. What is in your pants or theirs is not relevant.

Being that much smaller, though, I have to be realistic that I need to develop and use methods that don't rely on trying to out-muscle a larger opponant- techniques that are going to *WORK* against these larger men. I have to learn and practice everything, if only to retain the option of being able to teach it someday- but in sparring, I have to use methods that are going to put us on a more even playing field. For those purposes, I expressly do not want them to "go easy" on me except in the case where if they are higher ranked with more experience, they may have to hold back a bit on that account.

We will hit each other during drills, but only hard enough to show the other person what they need to correct and why. It's not meant to be a punishment.

I have seen some females that sabotage themselves by only wanting to work with their female classmates, and by not wanting to take hits, and by not wanting to spar.

(The martial arts has something to offer a wide range of desires, and there should certainly be a place for people who don't want to spar, and for women who only want to work with other women....but personally I just don't get it. It's like, "Teach me how to fish, but I don't want to actually *CATCH* any fish." Then if you find yourself in a position of NEEDING to catch a fish to keep yourself from sarving to death, you're not capable because you excised that critical part from your training... :confused:)

[Reverend Tap]

In my experience, at the outset women often tend to need more instruction on being comfortable with really manhandling their classmates, striking hard and whatnot. It's pretty common that, paired up with a female partner for drills or sparring, I'll remind them a couple of times that they don't need to go easy on me, and I'll notice a 50-100% increase without them getting anywhere close to full strength (their full strength of course, not judging other students by my own power standards). I don't think that's a female thing; I would imagine, more than anything, it has to do with gender roles actively discouraging women from roughhousing and getting physical in that way. The upshot of it, though, is that even though I try not to, I tend to find myself following suit and going overly easy on female classmates.

Now, all that said, before today's class I was pulled aside by my sifu to be a practice dummy for the women in the advanced class who were working on a shoulder throw, and all of them nearly pulled my friggin' arm off. :eek:

ps. Oh, and to correct a point Oso made, the strength disparity between men and women is not genetic. It's hormonal. I can't find the guy's pictures right now but there was a transsexual man (genetically female) who, after starting hormone therapy, started bodybuidling, and you absolutely cannot tell he's not a genetically male bodybuilder.

[Taryn P.]

The upshot of it, though, is that even though I try not to, I tend to find myself following suit and going overly easy on female classmates.
---------------------------------

Good communication is really important. I will usually go ahead and hit pretty hard, but I'll tell the classmate, "Let me know if I'm hitting you too hard, okay?" Then I cease worrying about it, trusting that they will tell me. I have one female classmate that I just get the vibe- can't pinpoint why- that she wouldn't communicate it well. Thus I tend to be easier on her, and I'm just not really comfortable working with her in general because I feel like I can't really trust her to communicate what she needs from me.

[uki]

My reaction was based on my apologizing an her launching into a "my boyfriend will kick your ass" diatribe. he probably would. :p


MA is fighting, there is bound to be contact, accidental or intentional (sparring). yeah i'd say getting hit would be an accidental, non-intentional act of not blocking.


Get over it and move on.just watch where you are moving to so you don't trip yourself up. :D

as for women in martial arts... it all comes down to the woman in question. i teach my daughters to headbutt. :)

[Oso]

RT: of course it's hormonal but the reason women's hormones are distributed the way they are is due to genetic coding, right? Women have testosterone in their bodies but not as much because they are designed differently than men.




I have seen some females that sabotage themselves by only wanting to work with their female classmates, and by not wanting to take hits, and by not wanting to spar.

(The martial arts has something to offer a wide range of desires, and there should certainly be a place for people who don't want to spar, and for women who only want to work with other women....but personally I just don't get it. It's like, "Teach me how to fish, but I don't want to actually *CATCH* any fish." Then if you find yourself in a position of NEEDING to catch a fish to keep yourself from sarving to death, you're not capable because you excised that critical part from your training... )

well said.

[golden arhat]

First: I think your statements are generalizations and do not apply to all men/women in MA.

Second: Many schools have women-only classes to allow for a more comfortable environment. These schools may also offer them access to the "men's" ie. regular, classes if they wish.

Third: Last time I trained I punched a woman in my class in the face because she didn't evade as the drill required. She got upset at me...Told me if her boyfriend was in the class (he is a student too) he would have attacked me. I assured her he would have lost. Then I suggested that she go to the women's only class.

how hard did you punch her

i think its fair if someones doing the drill wrong and you show her what happens when you do it wrong in real life (without causing unnneccesary pain obviously)

she's completely out of line, i've been tagged by people teaching me for getting it wrong its good it gives you a reason not to get it wrong again!

and for her to have the cheek of saying i'l get my boyfriend to beat you up is exactly the wrong kind of attitude to have in any MA class, thigns do t go your way so you run and get someone bigger to do your dirty work? i hate that kind of attitude in women (where it seems to be most prevalent)

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to training: There is NO gender.
In regards to competition and Ego: There IS gender.

[Oso]

In regards to training: There is NO gender.
In regards to competition and Ego: There IS gender.


There IS size differentiation even in training.

Women, just like men, should generally train with a range of partners of all sizes. But regular (say, 80% of the time) training will fall within a group of partners that are probably within a +/-30% size range. Everyone should train occasionally with bigger (and faster and stronger, etc) people to figure out how many of thier tools are just NOT going to work so they can devise a strategy for how to handle that big mf it it comes down...like, 'I must spend at least one day training sprints' :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

There IS size differentiation even in training.

Women, just like men, should generally train with a range of partners of all sizes. But regular (say, 80% of the time) training will fall within a group of partners that are probably within a +/-30% size range. Everyone should train occasionally with bigger (and faster and stronger, etc) people to figure out how many of thier tools are just NOT going to work so they can devise a strategy for how to handle that big mf it it comes down...like, 'I must spend at least one day training sprints' :D

Size difference is irrelevant to MA training, though relevant to sport training since you will be, typically, fighting in a weight category.
I usually advocate people train with the "biggest and meanest" people they can find ;)
But don't neglect training with smaller and more technical fighters too, you will learn a great deal being the "bigger person".

[Oso]

i don't agree. you will not spend all, or even most, of your time training with someone but so much bigger than you. I gave percentages for time and size that are certainly approximate but are what I would recommend as a baseline for splitting up training time.

I do agree that one should always try to find 'mean' people to train with but would rather use 'impersonal' as in they only want to train as hard as they can and will always train hard and when sparring have full intent while maintaining safe levels of power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i don't agree. you will not spend all, or even most, of your time training with someone but so much bigger than you. I gave percentages for time and size that are certainly approximate but are what I would recommend as a baseline for splitting up training time.

I do agree that one should always try to find 'mean' people to train with but would rather use 'impersonal' as in they only want to train as hard as they can and will always train hard and when sparring have full intent while maintaining safe levels of power.

If a person lives in a community in which 80% of the people are bigger than they are, they should train with bigger people as much as possible.
Women even more so.

[Taryn P.]

When I'm first learning a new technique, I try it with one of the smaller females in the class just so I can see how it's SUPPOSED to work. Again, this is mostly to understand the theory/principle, and be able to see the big picture; as well as to be able to possibly teach it sometime in the future.

But then I need to try it with one of the larger males so that I can see how (or even *IF*) it will *REALLY* work in a real fight. The majority of things, I need to experiment and make some modifications to in order to get it to work on someone twice my size. A few techniques just don't seem practical at all even with modifications.

Spending 80% of my time working techniques on a 5 foot 3 female is not practical. My odds of being attacked by a 5 foot three female are small as compared to my odds of being attacked by a larger male.

The two other females in my regular class avoid sparring, which makes spending extended periods of time practicing techniques against them even less relevant for my life. The one female in my supplemental class is a _very_ green beginner- that teacher is pushing her to spar with me, but at this point I have to be really slow and gentle with her, and I'm not really getting much out of this right now- it's mostly for her benefit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fact is, if you are training for self protection you should train with someone the resembles, physically, the type of individual you will be encountering.
You should aslo be training under the typical circumstances in which those attackes will happen, at least once a week :
Typical clothing
Typical environment
Typical assaults

[Oso]

good lord, are you both ignoring the % I gave to size?

+/- 30%

for my 110# female example that has her working with people ~143# or so on a regular basis. I'd actually recommend she regularly work with people up to 170ish.

the simple fact is that no 110# woman is going to be able to do much of anything to anyone bigger than 175 given that the 65# weight difference probably means taller (greater reach) and stronger (not necessarily in raw strength but mass gives strength to blows and allows for the absorption of more damage) unless she has a much greater level of skill.

yes, she needs to practice against the bigger person to gain that skill but the ratio of size to skill in how it affects performance of 'technique' increases at a faster rate per pound than however one might attempt to define levels of 'skill'

a woman needs to realize that she needs to get an equalizer and advanced training with it if she is serious about defending her or her loved ones lives.

Taryn: I don't disagree with what you are saying about how you are training that much...but you need to be able to gain 'skill' by continueing to successfully applying that skill against 100% resistance...something I have to doubt you are getting from the guys that are lots bigger than you.

SR: if you say 'once' a week...I would take that at 20% of training time and agree...given an average of 5 hours of training a week. (btw, I don't know if 5 hours is enough in one week but that would be another topic)

[sanjuro_ronin]

good lord, are you both ignoring the % I gave to size?

=/- 30%

Did anyone disagree with you?


he simple fact is that no 110# woman is going to be able to do much of anything to anyone bigger than 175 given that the 65# weight difference probably means taller (greater reach) and stronger (not necessarily in raw strength but mass gives strength to blows and allows for the absorption of more damage) unless she has a much greater level of skill.

That is why she must train with them, as much as possible.


yes, she needs to practice against the bigger person to gain that skill but the ratio of size to skill in how it affects performance of 'technique' increases at a faster rate per pound than however one might attempt to define levels of 'skill'

a woman needs to realize that she needs to get an equalizer and advanced training with it if she is serious about defending her or her loved ones lives

Very true.


SR: if you say 'once' a week...I would take that at 20% of training time and agree...given an average of 5 hours of training a week. (btw, I don't know if 5 hours is enough in one week but that would be another topic)

that was for STRICTLY self protection oriented training.

[BoulderDawg]

I'm not really sure (other than for pure self defense) that men and woman should train together. If all comes down to upper body strenght and quickness. Yes a few women really excel in these areas but they are the exception rather than the rule.

[Water Dragon]

Ya gotta also remember that women tend to make up for the size differential with superior technique, same as smaller guys. I know it's out of necesity, but still...

Ya gotta remember that when someone says, "All else equal, the bigger guy wins," there's a lot of variables out there. I used to watch my 135 pound MMA coach tear through 250 pounders like they were butter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ya gotta also remember that women tend to make up for the size differential with superior technique, same as smaller guys. I know it's out of necesity, but still...

Ya gotta remember that when someone says, "All else equal, the bigger guy wins," there's a lot of variables out there. I used to watch my 135 pound MMA coach tear through 250 pounders like they were butter.

There is no such thing as "equal', BUT, if fighting in open and non weight classes has aught me anything it has taught me that Size is, probably, the biggest factor.

[Water Dragon]

Size is by far the biggest factor, no pun intended. It is not, however, the only factor. The whole point of martial arts is to use those other factors to beat a bigger, stronger opponent. Otherwise, I'd spend all my time in the gym instead of on the mat.

I feel this applies to both men and women.

[Oso]

the same reasons that anyone is split by weight in fight sport is why size also matters in training.

SR, the way I'm taking what you are saying is that 'she' would be spending more time training with someone way bigger than she could ever hope to beat if it went down for real.

Everyone needs to try to train to make their game work against successively better and bigger opponents. But, there is an end point where nothing will work at all...due to size and strength limitations one just can't hit hard enough or fast enough or evade/block enough or absorb enough damage...this is where I think you are ignoring the ratio's I'm offering as a sensible limit to regular training partners, size wise.

and I do think there is a difference between men and women that is greater than the difference between men and men or women and women of the same weight differential....hmmm, did that make sense?



Size is by far the biggest factor, no pun intended. It is not, however, the only factor. The whole point of martial arts is to use those other factors to beat a bigger, stronger opponent. Otherwise, I'd spend all my time in the gym instead of on the mat.

I feel this applies to both men and women.

I agree completely. But, all else being equal, an equally trained woman will lose to an equally trained man who is also bigger and stronger...just as another guy will also lose to the equally trained, larger and stronger opponent.

It's ridiculous to not recognize Kobayashi Maru when you see it and plan for that eventuallity with a strategy instead of relying on tactics that can't help you anyway.

note: in no way am I suggesting that anyone, male or female, roll over and die just because they can't win...gotta go down fighting...

and, I too am also aware that smaller more skilled people can handle bigger people...I'm getting my ass handed to me every week now:) by a guy 80 pounds lighter than me:)

[GreenCloudCLF]

how hard did you punch her

i think its fair if someones doing the drill wrong and you show her what happens when you do it wrong in real life (without causing unnneccesary pain obviously)

she's completely out of line, i've been tagged by people teaching me for getting it wrong its good it gives you a reason not to get it wrong again!

and for her to have the cheek of saying i'l get my boyfriend to beat you up is exactly the wrong kind of attitude to have in any MA class, thigns do t go your way so you run and get someone bigger to do your dirty work? i hate that kind of attitude in women (where it seems to be most prevalent)

I didn't hit her that hard. But her lip did swell a little. I felt bad enough, and then she was a ***** about it. So I told her what was up.

[GreenCloudCLF]

he probably would. :p


Based on what information would you say that?

[Taryn P.]

[QUOTE=Oso]

SR, the way I'm taking what you are saying is that 'she' would be spending more time training with someone way bigger than she could ever hope to beat if it went down for real.

But, there is an end point where nothing will work at all...due to size and strength limitations one just can't hit hard enough or fast enough or evade/block enough or absorb enough damage...

note: in no way am I suggesting that anyone, male or female, roll over and die just because they can't win...gotta go down fighting...
[QUOTE]




If I (at five feet tall and 124lb) had that kind of defeatist attitude, there would be absolutely no reason to get out of bed every morning and go train. Why on earth would I bother?

When you've already decided that there is a point past which an opponant is "Way bigger than (you) could ever hope to beat", then you might as well just roll over and die.

When you're already resigned- as soon as you look at the opponant's size- that you "can't win" and that you're going to "go down fighting", you've already lost.

I haven't lost until- and **UNLESS**- he's ACTUALLY beaten me. He's gonna have to work for it, not just stand there and be big. I might surprise him. And you. :cool:

[uki]

When you've already decided that there is a point past which an opponant is "Way bigger than (you) could ever hope to beat", then you might as well just roll over and die.

When you're already resigned- as soon as you look at the opponant's size- that you "can't win" and that you're going to "go down fighting", you've already lost.

I haven't lost until- and **UNLESS**- he's ACTUALLY beaten me. He's gonna have to work for it, not just stand there and be big. I might surprise him. And you.thats the martial spirit!!! knock 'em all out!! most alpha males are baseless sexists and need to be put into their proper place.


Based on what information would you say that?well... how you carry and present yourself for one. :)

[Oso]

[QUOTE=Oso]

SR, the way I'm taking what you are saying is that 'she' would be spending more time training with someone way bigger than she could ever hope to beat if it went down for real.

But, there is an end point where nothing will work at all...due to size and strength limitations one just can't hit hard enough or fast enough or evade/block enough or absorb enough damage...

note: in no way am I suggesting that anyone, male or female, roll over and die just because they can't win...gotta go down fighting...
[QUOTE]




If I (at five feet tall and 124lb) had that kind of defeatist attitude, there would be absolutely no reason to get out of bed every morning and go train. Why on earth would I bother?

When you've already decided that there is a point past which an opponant is "Way bigger than (you) could ever hope to beat", then you might as well just roll over and die.

not realizing that there are people, of any gender, who can be just so much bigger, faster and stronger than you that you can in no way physical way harm them or prevent them from harming you is just plain dumb.

also, you do seem to be not reading well...I said at the very last that I'm not suggesting anyone roll over and die...But, you must have an honest outlook on what you are capable of...otherwise you are just living in a dreamworld.


When you're already resigned- as soon as you look at the opponant's size- that you "can't win" and that you're going to "go down fighting", you've already lost.

that's a bunch of horse apples. if you don't learn through your training to size someone up and realize your real chances of success at the tactical level (that is actually fighting hand to hand with them) then you will never explore strategies for dealing with someone that size.

one can not be guarranteed of beating someone of ones own size every time...what the hell makes you think you will be able to beat someone else bigger every time?
I haven't lost until- and **UNLESS**- he's ACTUALLY beaten me. He's gonna have to work for it, not just stand there and be big. I might surprise him. And you. :cool:

maybe, but probably not, nothing personal...but i go in to every encounter with the full awareness that I might be surprised and that the person might be way better than me....and I weigh twice what you do and am moderately skilled.

and at this point, it would be nice to know where you train and how long you've trained...when I looked yesterday you were just another anonymous poster and you're starting to sound pretty c0cky

[uki]

I weigh twice what you do and am moderately skilled.more alpha male bravado... sizing her(people)up... haven't you heard the bigger they are the harder they fall?


and at this point, it would be nice to know where you train and how long you've trained...yeah because everyone is a troll if they don't.


when I looked yesterday you were just another anonymous poster and you're starting to sound pretty c0ckyreally, what are the chances of an anonymous poster deciding to become a member. :rolleyes:

perhaps you haven't noticed, but most everyone who pouts about others being c0cky is usually a c0cky little twit themselves. :)

[Water Dragon]

I don't have anything to add, I just like the idea of women getting a little c0cky, or a big c0cky for that matter. After all, grown folks got needs.

[Oso]

why would anyone not want to be the alpha?

beta's get the leftovers.


what I'm saying makes sense. you may not agree with it, but it makes sense.

unless TarynP is one of those small percentage of women we are talking about, it just sounds like someone is filling her head with a bunch of crap. Until she gives on what she is studying and how long she has trained...she doesn't have a lot to stand on.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the same reasons that anyone is split by weight in fight sport is why size also matters in training.

SR, the way I'm taking what you are saying is that 'she' would be spending more time training with someone way bigger than she could ever hope to beat if it went down for real.

Everyone needs to try to train to make their game work against successively better and bigger opponents. But, there is an end point where nothing will work at all...due to size and strength limitations one just can't hit hard enough or fast enough or evade/block enough or absorb enough damage...this is where I think you are ignoring the ratio's I'm offering as a sensible limit to regular training partners, size wise.




There is only one way to defeat a lager opponent and that is to inflict so much damage they they are incapcitated and only by training with larger people can one grasps HOW MUCH damage that really entails.
Its not wither she/he is training with people that he/she will never be able to beat, its about finding a way to beat them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

why would anyone not want to be the alpha?

beta's get the leftovers.


what I'm saying makes sense. you may not agree with it, but it makes sense.

unless TarynP is one of those small percentage of women we are talking about, it just sounds like someone is filling her head with a bunch of crap. Until she gives on what she is studying and how long she has trained...she doesn't have a lot to stand on.

This is a big issue, to be sure.
For a smaller person to defeat a bigger person in combat, like I said before, the only way is to inflict so much damage that they are incapcitated.
Now, one can SAY that with superiour technique and speed that a smaller person can overcome a bigger person, truth is, nothing is impossible.
But superiour speed and technique MUST lead to taking the attacker out and NOT allowing him to get back in.
You don't just slap an RNC on someone, you have to compromise their structure and get them in a place that they can't counter the RNC ( I choose the RNC as an exampel because it is a "technique oriented finisher").
Fact is, smaller people need to be able to deliver enough force to compromise the structure of a bigger person and the only way to learn how to do that is full contact traning with bigger people.

[Water Dragon]

OK, I was playing when I said I didn't have anything to add.

I fully understand and agree with the idea that you have to go against bigger people. I still think the majority of training time should be spent with someone around your size AND skill level. It just seems that most people get the most benefit from training this way.

I'd also like to point out that if a woman does find herself in a situation where she needs to use 'fighting skills' she either doesn't understand the concept of self defense, or screwed up along the way.

That being said, women do have the advantage of surprise. If a man attacks a man, he's usually expecting some type of fight, he's aware of it at the least. When a man attacks a woman, however, he doesn't see her as a threat at all. That's something that can be taken advantage of.

[Oso]

There is only one way to defeat a lager opponent and that is to inflict so much damage they they are incapcitated and only by training with larger people can one grasps HOW MUCH damage that really entails.
Its not wither she/he is training with people that he/she will never be able to beat, its about finding a way to beat them.

right, I completely agree. but, again, the larger the weight differential the less likely the smaller person will be able to inflict enough damage before taking enough damage to be incapacitated.

we are talking about two different things here (training and actual fighting) and what I've been trying to say is that too much time spent training against too large an opponent is good but only to a point. you fight like you train, right? not enough time spent with more moderately sized people will make you lose out on some aspects needed to fight someone smaller...you have to train against all types of people and you were saying to spend more time than I believed practical.

[sanjuro_ronin]

right, I completely agree. but, again, the larger the weight differential the less likely the smaller person will be able to inflict enough damage before taking enough damage to be incapacitated.

we are talking about two different things here (training and actual fighting) and what I've been trying to say is that too much time spent training against too large an opponent is good but only to a point. you fight like you train, right? not enough time spent with more moderately sized people will make you lose out on some aspects needed to fight someone smaller...you have to train against all types of people and you were saying to spend more time than I believed practical.

I agree with balance in training.
I don't recall how much time I advocated in training VS bigger people though...

[Oso]

i think you said 'as much as possible' but if I took it differently, my bad.

[Water Dragon]

i think you said 'as much as possible' but if I took it differently.

The only way to settle this, is with an Internet Death Match Challenge.

[Oso]

naw, we're gentlemen...

[Taryn P.]

(O)
not realizing that there are people, of any gender, who can be just so much bigger, faster and stronger than you that you can in no way physical way harm them or prevent them from harming you is just plain dumb.

(T)
I don't think we're disagreeing, just nitpicking semantics of absolutism. I'm not debating that the bigger person is usually going to smear the smaller person, all else being equal. The only thing I'm really disagreeing with you on is the (seeming) blanket assumption that this is a reality 100% of the time; that said reality needs to be accepted; and the smaller person needs to go into the fight with a kamikaze attitude planning to lose every single time.

(O)
if you don't learn through your training to size someone up and realize your real chances of success at the tactical level (that is actually fighting hand to hand with them) then you will never explore strategies for dealing with someone that size.

(T)
Are you kidding... what do you think we (smaller people) **DO**, just wade in and close our eyes and pretend the opponant is the same size, and then act surprised when the shoulder throw doesn't work?? It's *all* about strategy, training, respective strengths (we small people do have some), respective weaknesses (the big guys do have some), luck, attitude, endurance, craftiness,
guts.... there are a lot of things that factor into a fight.

(O)
one can not be guarranteed of beating someone of ones own size every time...what the hell makes you think you will be able to beat someone else bigger every time?

(T)
Gads, I never said every time. I get my @ss kicked *MOST* of the time, for exactly the reason you state... getting overpowered by the larger person's superior musculature, weight and reach. (Also, everyone I am currently sparring with has seniority on me, so I haven't really had a chance to deal with the "smaller person, better trained" scenario.) But I'm not going to give up, I'm going to keep working at it. I never go into *any* spar planning to lose. I know I'm probably going to lose, but I'm d@mn well going to try to win. Every single time.

(O)
i go in to every encounter with the full awareness that I might be surprised and that the person might be way better than me....and I weigh twice what you do and am moderately skilled.

(T)
Really? It's kind of coming across that you're saying that if your opponant is significantly smaller than you, it's a foregone conclusion to you that you're going to smear him/her. Hopefully we really are just having a misunderstanding of semantics.

(O)
and at this point, it would be nice to know where you train and how long you've trained...when I looked yesterday you were just another anonymous poster and you're starting to sound pretty c0cky

(T)
Since we're typographically debating a principle and not physically squaring off on the mat, comparing training resumes is not really relevant at this point. I've seen a lot of "my sensei could whup your sensei" "your style sucks" "your sword is smaller than my sword" type dialogues on these boards once the resume-comparing comes out, and that's not really the type of exchange I'm interested in spending my time on.

But if we did square off, I would know that I already had one advantage in my pocket: you would be underestimating me!

[sanjuro_ronin]

naw, we're gentlemen...

As the challenge thread already proved ;)

[uki]

i tend to think that concentrating on a bigger opponents knees would be an effective method of nullifying any threat, no?

[TenTigers]

I have a female student-in her fifties, under five feet. She's skilled, has good grappling skills, hard kicks,fast strikes,excellent power for someone her size, and alot of guts.
I am teaching her blade. Do you really need to ask why?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember the first time I sparred full contact with a bigger person, it was an eye opener since I could handle him easily in "controlled sparring".
When your ability to fight is based on how much damage you can inflict the way you fight becomes totally different.
You realize how crucial power is and defense, how vital being able to "take a shot" in the right way is.
Footwork becomes your ally, more than ever.
Now, when I started competing in kyokushin at the time with no weight classes it was even MORE of an eye opener.
In training we try to help each other but we also KNOW each other, in competition, while no one is there to hurt anyone else, there is the "unknown pucker factor".
One guy was 6-3 and 220 and at the time I was 145, **** did he kick like a mule !
The biggest guy I ever fought in competition was 6-6 and 280 and boy was that an ass kicking that I got !
LOL !
I did mange to NOT get Ko'd :D
I realizes that I need to "bulk up", I need to strengthen up.
Yes I was fast and the strikes got in, they just didn't do enough damage to compromise him, much less stop him.
Fighting someone bigger that also knows how to fight is a *****, and not in a good way either.
But it needs to be done.

As for frequency, I think that, if a person spars every training session it woudl depend on the sparring, but I would guesstimate that one should try to put in one good sparring session with a bigger person per week at least at a "hard contact" level.
And full contact once a month.
Of course it depends on the person.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have a female student-in her fifties, under five feet. She's skilled, has good grappling skills, hard kicks,fast strikes,excellent power for someone her size, and alot of guts.
I am teaching her blade. Do you really need to ask why?

Edge, the great "equalizer".

[Oso]

lol, funny that it was like OT, OT, OT...

btw, the little button on the bottom right says 'quote'



(O)
not realizing that there are people, of any gender, who can be just so much bigger, faster and stronger than you that you can in no way physical way harm them or prevent them from harming you is just plain dumb.

(T)
I don't think we're disagreeing, just nitpicking semantics of absolutism. I'm not debating that the bigger person is usually going to smear the smaller person, all else being equal. The only thing I'm really disagreeing with you on is the (seeming) blanket assumption that this is a reality 100% of the time; that said reality needs to be accepted; and the smaller person needs to go into the fight with a kamikaze attitude planning to lose every single time.

It's a blanket assumption that the large majority of the time the smaller person will lose and that the larger the gap between the sizes, the more chance that the smaller person will lose.

It's not a blanket assumption that every smaller person will always lose to every bigger person.l

I also never said anything about kamikaze attitude planning to lose every single time. What I'm talking about is training enough (~20%) to realize how big a chance you will be taking by chosing to go hand to hand with someone more than ~30% bigger than you so you can examine other stategies

(O)
if you don't learn through your training to size someone up and realize your real chances of success at the tactical level (that is actually fighting hand to hand with them) then you will never explore strategies for dealing with someone that size.

(T)
Are you kidding... what do you think we (smaller people) **DO**, just wade in and close our eyes and pretend the opponant is the same size, and then act surprised when the shoulder throw doesn't work?? It's *all* about strategy, training, respective strengths (we small people do have some), respective weaknesses (the big guys do have some), luck, attitude, endurance, craftiness,
guts.... there are a lot of things that factor into a fight.

nope, not kidding...you are right about all of the above but don't seem to paying attention to specifics of what I'm saying.

(O)
one can not be guarranteed of beating someone of ones own size every time...what the hell makes you think you will be able to beat someone else bigger every time?

(T)
Gads, I never said every time. I get my @ss kicked *MOST* of the time, for exactly the reason you state... getting overpowered by the larger person's superior musculature, weight and reach. (Also, everyone I am currently sparring with has seniority on me, so I haven't really had a chance to deal with the "smaller person, better trained" scenario.) But I'm not going to give up, I'm going to keep working at it. I never go into *any* spar planning to lose. I know I'm probably going to lose, but I'm d@mn well going to try to win. Every single time.

ok, you're only talking about sparring/training...please reread, i'm talking mostly about strategies for winning actual 'street' situations...with a 'win' being able to talk about how you ran away or put 150 or so grains of lead in his ass

(O)
i go in to every encounter with the full awareness that I might be surprised and that the person might be way better than me....and I weigh twice what you do and am moderately skilled.

(T)
Really? It's kind of coming across that you're saying that if your opponant is significantly smaller than you, it's a foregone conclusion to you that you're going to smear him/her. Hopefully we really are just having a misunderstanding of semantics.

no, i think i said already on this thread (maybe it was another one) but I get my ass handed to me regularly by a guy 80 pounds lighter...and 13 years younger and with less than a third my training time. but, this particular person has a LOT of potential and trains his ass off...so, he's not your usual person on the street or whatever

(O)
and at this point, it would be nice to know where you train and how long you've trained...when I looked yesterday you were just another anonymous poster and you're starting to sound pretty c0cky

(T)
Since we're typographically debating a principle and not physically squaring off on the mat, comparing training resumes is not really relevant at this point. I've seen a lot of "my sensei could whup your sensei" "your style sucks" "your sword is smaller than my sword" type dialogues on these boards once the resume-comparing comes out, and that's not really the type of exchange I'm interested in spending my time on.

i don't think you'll find a many if any posts by me with any of that type of crap in it...there are some about a particular person but i had first hand experience with them.

But if we did square off, I would know that I already had one advantage in my pocket: you would be underestimating me!

good lord, your reading comprehension needs work...i've already said that I don't underestimate anyone. I'm not underestimating you at all, just trying to help you rearrange your thinking a little bit. :)

[Oso]

ftr, i haven't always been 'bigger'

i first wrestled at 140 in HS...ended up at 167 my senior year.

this was also the first 4 years of kung fu training in which we regularly sparred with some isshinryu (sp?) guys...there were 3 of them we played with, all of them outweighed me and two of them were over 6' to my 5'11'' and of them, one was 6'4" and about 240...these three guys also had 3-6 years of training on me...I got my ass beat a lot in sparring that was done either outside or in the living room of an apartment...

also, I spent my junior year at 155 partnered with the 195 pounder because we had a small team that year...no one at 167 or 185. So, I got stronger but lost some ability to handle the speed of people my size...so, I also rolled with the lighter weights of 145 and 135 to deal with someone who was faster


so, i don't believe i'm talking out my ass about this subject.

[Reverend Tap]

Sometimes it's a matter of being more creative than your larger opponent.

One time at my first (WC) school we were doing an evening of king-of-the-hill sparring (whoever wins stays in and immediately fights the next person), in the mid- to full-contact range. I'd won a couple of rounds and was getting pretty winded, cardio endurance always having been my weak point. In walks my next opponent, the biggest guy in the class. Now, I'm not a small person (5'11", ~200lbs), but this guy had most of a foot and probably 50lbs on me. Friggin' giant, and although I'd trained a bit longer than he had I was already winded while he was totally fresh.

My solution? I invented koala-style kung fu on the spot. Soon as the round started, I launched myself up and latched onto the guy, crawled around to his back, and applied a RNC and an abdominal "choke" (don't know what it's actually called, squeezing the diaphragm between the legs). The guy fell--on me, of course, but I was prepared for that so it didn't break my grip (it actually helped, as the impact forced some air out of him), and he submitted. Total round time was about five seconds, and it took my sifu about a minute after that to stop laughing. :D

Unusual scenario, to be sure, and a strategy that would never work on someone who wasn't utterly taken by surprise, but I just wanted to make the point that, sometimes, creativity and thinking on your feet can trump a whole slew of other advantages.

Plus it's just a fun story I've been wanting to share. ;)

[David Jamieson]

Helio Gracie had a point in regards to time lengths being applied to fighting.

If you apply time length to rounds, then the larger person will almost always have the advantage.

If you take away time limits, the whole ball of wax changes radically.
Just food for thought in context to the subject, however...

What women have going against them mostly is not in martial arts training, it's in social conditioning whereby they are encouraged to be weak, to be effeminate and to be supplicant to men.

After being raised in an environment like that, the whole core belief structure will produce exactly that in a person and it takes a serious paradigm shift or a denial of that social conditioning from the get go to correct that state of being.

Men in many society receive different social conditioning and part of that brings about fear and misunderstanding of women who possess physical power.
Women who possess all round power scare the crap out of most men who are unequipped to deal with it because of their own messed up social conditioning whereby they are taught from early years to be strong, to provide, to protect and to refine their violence into skills.

These constructs were created for us, by us as a control methodology for our societies. It doesn't seem to apply so much anymore and is viewed as antiquated. Patriarchal societies are in fact widely viewed as inferior whereas egalitarian societies are seen as more forward thinking and indeed produce many more stronger women and subsequently weaker men. Leveling the playing field in due course.

Gender based conditioning will be weeded out in egalitarian societies more and more and eventually, we won't even see posts like this in the forums of the future! lol

:)

[SavvySavage]

I think Oso and Tarynp should spar together to release some of the sexual tension

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think Oso and Tarynp should spar together to release some of the sexual tension

Ah, we all know how these cross gender fights all end up here:

[Taryn P.]

(Oso)
lol, funny that it was like OT, OT, OT...

btw, the little button on the bottom right says 'quote'
------------------------
(T)
(laugh) Yes, I tried it, but I messed it up somehow and didn't have the time/patience to try to fix it, so I just went back and did my own style of quoting. I freely admit to being the world's most pathetic moron regarding computer skills!
-----------------------
(SavvySavage)
I think Oso and Tarynp should spar together to release some of the sexual tension
----------------------
(T)
I don't think he would deign to spar me..... we've already established that he's heavier than me, so the outcome is predestined and there is no point. ;)


I do agree that surprise is one of a female (and small) fighter's best weapons. In a real fight, I would want to try to take the attacker by surprise and finish it quick (first strike, if at all possible). Once he got a chance to get his bearings and ramp up his game, I'd almost certainly be toast. Of course I lose that advantage when I'm sparring with classmates who know me.

Another important weapon for the small and the female is commitment. It's shocking how many people will hesitate or shrink from gouging out an attacker's eyeballs, or opening his throat with their knife. They freeze up; they wait till they're half-dead to grasp what's happening and to feel they're justified in even TRYING to fight back. It's important to make quick assessments and then commit wholeheartedly to a vicious enough response to end it. Again, this is no help to me in sparring situations.

[Taryn P.]

(Water Dragon)
I'd also like to point out that if a woman does find herself in a situation where she needs to use 'fighting skills' she either doesn't understand the concept of self defense, or screwed up along the way.
-------------------

Huh?

I realize that a lot of people put themselves in foolish situations, and a lot of people don't take full advantage of non-violent ways to extricate themselves from a bad situation (not that we should blame the victim even in these cases), but not all attacks on women fall into these categories.

[Taryn P.]

no, i think i said already on this thread (maybe it was another one) but I get my ass handed to me regularly by a guy 80 pounds lighter...and 13 years younger and with less than a third my training time.
-----------------------

Can I watch? :)

[SimonM]

What women have going against them mostly is not in martial arts training, it's in social conditioning whereby they are encouraged to be weak, to be effeminate and to be supplicant to men.

After being raised in an environment like that, the whole core belief structure will produce exactly that in a person and it takes a serious paradigm shift or a denial of that social conditioning from the get go to correct that state of being.

Men in many society receive different social conditioning and part of that brings about fear and misunderstanding of women who possess physical power.
Women who possess all round power scare the crap out of most men who are unequipped to deal with it because of their own messed up social conditioning whereby they are taught from early years to be strong, to provide, to protect and to refine their violence into skills.




I have to beg to differ... to a point... with David.

Here's the thing:

Yes, men and women receive different social conditioning. And this conditioning is often perverted to create inequality between the genders. However no matter how egalitarian society is I would hate to see a world where there was no difference between the genders.

Humans, in our more natural state, are essentially hunters and gatherers. Genetically derived gender traits tend to split along that line - with males fulfilling hunting roles and females fulfilling gathering roles.

This has led to differences between men and women that are literally hard-wired. And these differences should be celebrated and embraced as both are necessary for a whole and healthy species.

I don't want a world where all women find they must emulate men, and can have equality, by being men-with-different-sexual-organs. This is largely the equality available to women today.

I equally don't want a world of effete men. This is also a trend we occasionally see with things like the (hopefully late) "metrosexual" trend / lifestyle / whatever.

I'd suggest checking out some of the writings of Robert Bly.

Men and women should have equal rank, access to status, and ability to pursue what they want from life.

They should not have to do so only at the expense of their own gender identity (transgendered and two-spirited people notwithstanding).

[Taryn P.]

As long as we reinforce "gender identity", it's just trying to stuff people into outdated, stereotyped cubbyholes based on what genitalia they happened to be born with- whether they like that cubbyhole or not.

People who don't want to stay in their designated cubbyhole are often given a very hard time by society.

[Oso]

(Oso)
lol, funny that it was like OT, OT, OT...

btw, the little button on the bottom right says 'quote'
------------------------
(T)
(laugh) Yes, I tried it, but I messed it up somehow and didn't have the time/patience to try to fix it, so I just went back and did my own style of quoting. I freely admit to being the world's most pathetic moron regarding computer skills!

if you want to interject into the quoted post you can just position the curser within the quoted text and type...obviously I like to bold what I interject but you can italicize or change the font color in the advanced editing options

-----------------------
(SavvySavage)
I think Oso and Tarynp should spar together to release some of the sexual tension
----------------------
(T)
I don't think he would deign to spar me..... we've already established that he's heavier than me, so the outcome is predestined and there is no point. ;)

no way...i'll spar anyone anytime :)


I do agree that surprise is one of a female (and small) fighter's best weapons. In a real fight, I would want to try to take the attacker by surprise and finish it quick (first strike, if at all possible). Once he got a chance to get his bearings and ramp up his game, I'd almost certainly be toast. Of course I lose that advantage when I'm sparring with classmates who know me.

that's all well and good but what if you don't have surprise? or what, like I point out, you just don't have enough raw power to do enough damage quick enough...finishing a fight in one blow just doesn't happen hardly ever

Another important weapon for the small and the female is commitment. It's shocking how many people will hesitate or shrink from gouging out an attacker's eyeballs, or opening his throat with their knife. They freeze up; they wait till they're half-dead to grasp what's happening and to feel they're justified in even TRYING to fight back. It's important to make quick assessments and then commit wholeheartedly to a vicious enough response to end it. Again, this is no help to me in sparring situations.

that last is true...but how do you train the commitment level? and, you have to have the base skills developed through regular, hard contact sparring that you aren't going to get fighting the big guys too often.


If it's not a fair fight for a 150 pound male fighter to fight a 200+ pound male fighter then why would it even begin to be considered possible for a <125 pound female fighter to end up the winner in the same sort of fight....yes, yes, I'm referring to sport competition but I don't think the basics are really any different for the Street

that would be cooler if we had a font that looked like it was dripping blood:p

[Oso]

no, i think i said already on this thread (maybe it was another one) but I get my ass handed to me regularly by a guy 80 pounds lighter...and 13 years younger and with less than a third my training time.
-----------------------

Can I watch? :)


yes, i am planning to tape it one night...i mentioned that in my blog on the training forum i think...but, it hasn't happened yet...there are some clips of me sparring one of my students on my youtube page though...i've had clips of me up here in the past too so i'm not in a particular rush to do it

[Oso]

simon...you really said 'two spirited' didn't you????

you spending too much time with the taoist sorcerers?

[David Jamieson]

I have to beg to differ... to a point... with David.

Here's the thing:

Yes, men and women receive different social conditioning. And this conditioning is often perverted to create inequality between the genders. However no matter how egalitarian society is I would hate to see a world where there was no difference between the genders.

Humans, in our more natural state, are essentially hunters and gatherers. Genetically derived gender traits tend to split along that line - with males fulfilling hunting roles and females fulfilling gathering roles.

This has led to differences between men and women that are literally hard-wired. And these differences should be celebrated and embraced as both are necessary for a whole and healthy species.

I don't want a world where all women find they must emulate men, and can have equality, by being men-with-different-sexual-organs. This is largely the equality available to women today.

I equally don't want a world of effete men. This is also a trend we occasionally see with things like the (hopefully late) "metrosexual" trend / lifestyle / whatever.

I'd suggest checking out some of the writings of Robert Bly.

Men and women should have equal rank, access to status, and ability to pursue what they want from life.

They should not have to do so only at the expense of their own gender identity (transgendered and two-spirited people notwithstanding).

I don't think that getting rid of the egregious social conditioning will make the genders same/same.

There are of course the obvious traits that are hardwired and not to mention the whole pro-creation aspect of things.

Having said that, women were plenty prepared to deal with threats to the camp in the hunter gatherer days. They had to be as the men were gone hunting for extended periods of time and they were the only ones there to defend the children, themselves, the elderly and the camp itself. There was still equality, but the roles that were adhered to were different.

I think the gender identity is done more harm under the current models of social conditioning than under the previous free form development of same. I see the conditioning that we encourage and practice in society as the problem. Not only in context to the topic, but in many ways our soft women/ hard men conditioning model is a failure at the root and must be radically changed as we move forward.

[SimonM]

Finding an outlet for people whose gender identity is not standard is fine. Those people shouldn't be excluded from society just because they are different. The "twin-spirited" model used by some north american aboriginal cultures was a very effective form of dealing with this.

However, the truth is Taryn P, that for the majority of people the reality is that the gender role is derived largely from genetic traits. For these people, both men and women, being able to express their gender role without fear of societal censure is essential for a happy and fulfilling life.

Attempting to beat humanity into an asexual race of androgenes, whether by masculinizing women, feminizing men or by doing both, does a disservice to people of both genders.

One thing I do agree with you on David is that the gender roles, as they stand today, are not as they should be naturally. An example of this is the attempt to strip men of emotion. Another would be pop-culture symbols who create an image of female emancipation to girls and women based on sexual promiscuity (Xtina, Paris Hilton and that "kissed a girl" girl as examples).

[Shaolinlueb]

just watch where you are moving to so you don't trip yourself up. :D


i see what you did there.:p

[Taryn P.]

sanjuro_ronin
Ah, we all know how these cross gender fights all end up here:
Attached Images face-sitting_2_1826_si.jpg (54.9 KB, 3 views)
---------------------

Yeah, and look which one of them ended up on top.

[Oso]

Whenever women have insisted on absolute equality with men, they have invariably wound up with the dirty end of the stick. What they are and what they can do makes them superior to men, and their proper tactic is to demand special privileges, all the traffic will bear. they should never settle merely for equality. For women, "equality" is a disaster.




All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly which can -- and must -- be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempting to formulate a "perfect society" on any foundation other than "Women and children first!" is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly -- and no doubt will keep on trying.


..........

[Oso]

sanjuro_ronin
Ah, we all know how these cross gender fights all end up here:
Attached Images face-sitting_2_1826_si.jpg (54.9 KB, 3 views)
---------------------

Yeah, and look which one of them ended up on top.


no, no...you got it all wrong...he obviously used a sacrafice throw....

[SimonM]

simon...you really said 'two spirited' didn't you????

you spending too much time with the taoist sorcerers?

I meant "twin-spirited". Slip of the typo. ;)

[Taryn P.]

(O)
if you want to interject into the quoted post you can just position the curser within the quoted text and type...obviously I like to bold what I interject but you can italicize or change the font color in the advanced editing options

(T)
****, I still messed it up. I'll try again in the morning when I have more time to play around with it.

(O)
that's all well and good but what if you don't have surprise?

(T)
Well, then that would suck for me. Best advantage down the tubes, fight on and do the best ya can without it.

But unless he knew me, it's hard to imagine that he *wouldn't* be surprised. I really do appear quite cute and harmless at first glance. The karmic universe has got to throw me a bone, you'd think.

(O)
or what, like I point out, you just don't have enough raw power to do enough damage quick enough...

(T)
That's why I have two knives, five baseball bats and a concealed carry permit. Unarmed skills are the backup plan to that. The weapons are the backup plan to running like a rabbit, which is the backup plan to avoiding trouble altogether. See, I have a lot of plans. Unarmed is the last resort.

(O)
that last is true...but how do you train the commitment level?

(T)
That's a toughie. I'm not sure you can. But you can help yourself along by training your butt off, sparring with people twice your size, knowing the applicable laws so that you aren't dithering about when you're justified to strike and at what level of force, doing the research so that you're familiar with violent behavior and how it tends to go down, and mentally roleplaying as many scenarios as you can dream up. I think a lot of it comes down to deciding- before you're in the situation- that your safety is worth fighting for and that you resolve to do exactly that. A part of the decisiveness that you will need at that moment can be stockpiled ahead of time.

(O)
If it's not a fair fight for a 150 pound male fighter to fight a 200+ pound male fighter then why would it even begin to be considered possible for a <125 pound female fighter to end up the winner in the same sort of fight....yes, yes, I'm referring to sport competition but I don't think the basics are really any different for the Street

(T)
It's *not* a fair fight. I never said it would be a fair fight, I just said that I would still try. And that it's possible. Unlikely, but possible.

And as far as "street", it's *never* a fair fight out there. It descends into "not fair" as soon as some criminal attacks you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin
Ah, we all know how these cross gender fights all end up here:
Attached Images face-sitting_2_1826_si.jpg (54.9 KB, 3 views)
---------------------

Yeah, and look which one of them ended up on top.

She obviously has the real kung fu !
:D

[Oso]

(O)
if you want to interject into the quoted post you can just position the curser within the quoted text and type...obviously I like to bold what I interject but you can italicize or change the font color in the advanced editing options

(T)
****, I still messed it up. I'll try again in the morning when I have more time to play around with it.

(O)
that's all well and good but what if you don't have surprise?

(T)
Well, then that would suck for me. Best advantage down the tubes, fight on and do the best ya can without it.

But unless he knew me, it's hard to imagine that he *wouldn't* be surprised. I really do appear quite cute and harmless at first glance. The karmic universe has got to throw me a bone, you'd think.

(O)
or what, like I point out, you just don't have enough raw power to do enough damage quick enough...

(T)
That's why I have two knives, five baseball bats and a concealed carry permit. Unarmed skills are the backup plan to that. The weapons are the backup plan to running like a rabbit, which is the backup plan to avoiding trouble altogether. See, I have a lot of plans. Unarmed is the last resort.

(O)
that last is true...but how do you train the commitment level?

(T)
That's a toughie. I'm not sure you can. But you can help yourself along by training your butt off, sparring with people twice your size, knowing the applicable laws so that you aren't dithering about when you're justified to strike and at what level of force, doing the research so that you're familiar with violent behavior and how it tends to go down, and mentally roleplaying as many scenarios as you can dream up. I think a lot of it comes down to deciding- before you're in the situation- that your safety is worth fighting for and that you resolve to do exactly that. A part of the decisiveness that you will need at that moment can be stockpiled ahead of time.

(O)
If it's not a fair fight for a 150 pound male fighter to fight a 200+ pound male fighter then why would it even begin to be considered possible for a <125 pound female fighter to end up the winner in the same sort of fight....yes, yes, I'm referring to sport competition but I don't think the basics are really any different for the Street

(T)
It's *not* a fair fight. I never said it would be a fair fight, I just said that I would still try. And that it's possible. Unlikely, but possible.

And as far as "street", it's *never* a fair fight out there. It descends into "not fair" as soon as some criminal attacks you.

STOP!

i give...you had me at two knives, baseball bats and the concealed carry...what do you carry?

I think I might be in love....:o

[GreenCloudCLF]

well... how you carry and present yourself for one. :)
Funny from the guy whose name is what my 15 month old daughter says when she tastes soap...

[Taryn P.]

STOP!



I think I might be in love....:o



If you think our spar is going to end like Sanjuro's picture, dream on. (eyeroll)

[Taryn P.]

[QUOTE=Andy Miles;915219]In my opinion,


When women try to be men, they quickly get divorced, bitter and because lesbians out of forfeit.

QUOTE]


This (well, most of it, but ESPECIALLY this) is too ridiculous, insane and insulting to warrent any further comment.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Andy Miles;915219]In my opinion,


When women try to be men, they quickly get divorced, bitter and because lesbians out of forfeit.

QUOTE]


This (well, most of it, but ESPECIALLY this) is too ridiculous, insane and insulting to warrent any further comment.

LMAO !!!
Well said.

[uki]

Funny from the guy whose name is what my 15 month old daughter says when she tastes soap...hahahaha!!! kids are the best... one day at the shopping center my 4 year old goes, "wow, there is alot of f*cking people in the parking lot!!!" and the 20 month old calls ice cream, ba-sta. :)

and uki is pronounced you-KI or oo-key, depending on the mood... one is yang, the other is yin. :cool:

[Oso]

If you think our spar is going to end like Sanjuro's picture, dream on. (eyeroll)

twas a joke, lady.

[TaichiMantis]

[QUOTE=Andy Miles;915219]In my opinion,


When women try to be men, they quickly get divorced, bitter and because lesbians out of forfeit.

QUOTE]


This (well, most of it, but ESPECIALLY this) is too ridiculous, insane and insulting to warrent any further comment.


I agree, I almost spewed my diet coke all over my keyboard.

[SimonM]

hahahaha!!! kids are the best... one day at the shopping center my 4 year old goes, "wow, there is alot of f*cking people in the parking lot!!!" and the 20 month old calls ice cream, ba-sta. :)

and uki is pronounced you-KI or oo-key, depending on the mood... one is yang, the other is yin. :cool:

Isn't an Uki the 'bottom' in Aikido cooperative throws?

[Taryn P.]

twas a joke, lady.
----------
I know. Mine too. Hence the eyeroll.

[CFT]

Isn't an Uki the 'bottom' in Aikido cooperative throws?Uke is the person thrown in Judo and Aikido. The performer of the throw is 'tori'.

[Oso]

twas a joke, lady.
----------
i know. Mine too. Hence the eyeroll.


:)


you still haven't said what you carry???

I carry a S&W M&P...great pistol.

[SimonM]

Uke is the person thrown in Judo and Aikido. The performer of the throw is 'tori'.

Yeah, the 'bottom'. ;)

[Taryn P.]

I confess I don't actually have a personal firearm yet. I've had the CWP for a few years now, and have taken some basic firearms training courses though Insights http://www.insightstraining.com but would like to get around to taking a few more. I feel it's only responsible to have really good training and a lot of practice on the range before you start running around with a loaded gun under your shirt.

A buddy and I went to both local ranges and rented every single gun they had in the cases. Being of small size, I can't realistically conceal a really large/heavy pistol, especially since I want to be able to carry at work. But my accuracy really starts to go in the toilet with the smaller, lighter guns. Also still kinda waffling between the semiautomatics and the revolvers. More bullets with the semiautomatic, less misfires with the revolver. Once the semiautomatic jams, it's a paperweight, and I really don't like that. It's taking me too long to clear a jam even under ideal conditions. Probably get better with practice (on the accuracy as well).

My favorite revolver so far is a S&W, a little heavier than a 38 if I think I can get away with it. Favorite semiautomatic so far is a Kahr 9mm. The Gun Nuts (tm) at Insights are All Glock All The Way, though, and they really seem to know their stuff, so one has to take note.

I need to get my butt in gear on this, I know, but the Insights classes aren't cheap and I was really jonesing to budget in their "Defense Against Weapons" and "Groundfighting" courses this year. Their (nonfirearms) courses have been really interesting and valuable supplements to MA training, and I've brought a lot of info back to share with my classes.

More practical to get the firearms stuff done first, I know....

[uki]

I confess I don't actually have a personal firearm yet. i have a browning semi-auto 12 gauge with a 48" barrel. :)

[Lucas]

type uki in the japanese to english translation to see. (http://www.freedict.com/onldict/jap.html)

[uki]

uki... signs of rain, threatening to rain, float (fishing), buoy, rainy season.

uke... no matches found... interesting. someone sure knows their stuff. :rolleyes:

[Oso]

I confess I don't actually have a personal firearm yet. I've had the CWP for a few years now, and have taken some basic firearms training courses though Insights http://www.insightstraining.com but would like to get around to taking a few more. I feel it's only responsible to have really good training and a lot of practice on the range before you start running around with a loaded gun under your shirt.

A buddy and I went to both local ranges and rented every single gun they had in the cases. Being of small size, I can't realistically conceal a really large/heavy pistol, especially since I want to be able to carry at work. But my accuracy really starts to go in the toilet with the smaller, lighter guns. Also still kinda waffling between the semiautomatics and the revolvers. More bullets with the semiautomatic, less misfires with the revolver. Once the semiautomatic jams, it's a paperweight, and I really don't like that. It's taking me too long to clear a jam even under ideal conditions. Probably get better with practice (on the accuracy as well).

My favorite revolver so far is a S&W, a little heavier than a 38 if I think I can get away with it. Favorite semiautomatic so far is a Kahr 9mm. The Gun Nuts (tm) at Insights are All Glock All The Way, though, and they really seem to know their stuff, so one has to take note.

I need to get my butt in gear on this, I know, but the Insights classes aren't cheap and I was really jonesing to budget in their "Defense Against Weapons" and "Groundfighting" courses this year. Their (nonfirearms) courses have been really interesting and valuable supplements to MA training, and I've brought a lot of info back to share with my classes.

More practical to get the firearms stuff done first, I know....

the M&P comes in a compact as well.

Glock people are a little fanatical, imo. Not that they aren't good weapons.

Kahr is of course good.

have you looked at anything in the newer .32 magnum round?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_H&R_Magnum

I think everyone is producing a revolver for this now, Taurus, Smith. It offers a big punch in a smaller, lighter package.

also, i don't think modern autos jam with any real regularity that isn't generally due to the ammo. so i don't think that's such a great argument for or against them.

sounds like you're on the right track though...

[sanjuro_ronin]

uki... signs of rain, threatening to rain, float (fishing), buoy, rainy season.

uke... no matches found... interesting. someone sure knows their stuff. :rolleyes:

MA specific terms won't show up, typically, in a translator.
For a kick, type in Geri ( which referes to a kick in JMA) and see what you get.
LOL !

[冠木侍]

Basically on the receiving end of a technique.

Sometimes pronounced incorrectly by those who are not familiar with the subtleties of the Japanese language...comes out as uki or ukee.