Roundhouse technique

[Reverend Tap]

I'm curious about the various techniques people use in roundhouse kicks. The technique my school uses is one that I'm not really finding anywhere else, and has led to some confusion when I discuss kicks with other people, as apparently everyone assumes I'm talking about a different kick than I am. I'd be interested to know if people here are more familiar with it, what opinions everyone has, etc, as well as if other schools utilize the kick under a different name.

I don't have a video camera, so here's my best shot at describing it:

Chamber in front of the body, knee straight up, shin vertical, and hips square. As the hips snap to the side, the foot points (all our chambers are with foot flexed) and the shin pivots to horizontal while snapping out to straighten the leg. The knee does not move in space from where it was in chamber. Striking surface is predominantly the top of the foot, but in practice works as foot, ankle, or shin.

It's an interesting kick, as compared to other roundhouses I've seen it can be thrown in an extremely narrow space, and it seems to catch people off guard fairly well. It's taking a while for me to build solid power with it, but I am getting there, and that already seems somewhat offset by how quickly it allows a temple shot. It also leaves me basically still in chamber or with a knee block up, though personally I don't like throwing kick combos as it leaves me on one leg and vulnerable longer than I prefer.

Thoughts?

[Chief_Suicide]

Our school practices the exact same way.

What we're told is that this kind of round house is harder to see coming. There is less power at first, until it is practiced. The round house you see in some other martial arts, and Muay Thai are easier to see coming.

Ever since I've learned the round house that way, I've watched how people do it in other martial arts on the Internet and mma. It seems Chinese martial artists are 'usually' the only ones that use it this way.

I like it. My roundhouse is still not great, and I have trouble reaching my opponents head, but that is stretching, not technique. Other people at our school have no problem extending their roundhouses at the head or higher.

[Oso]

i have learned it that way, use it that way some and teach it in combination with other types of 'round' kicks.

it is ok, but not nearly as powerful as other means of throwing a round house type kick.

many others will pick it apart and say there is no point in doing it that way at all.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have the background in 4 types of round kicks:
Traditional Karate
Kyokushin
MT
ITF TKD ( yes there is a differenc ebetween ITF and WTF round kicks)

I one the works best is the one that fits best into your type of fighting.
Period.

[EarthDragon]

I dont think its the way your delivering the kick that matters, as snajuro said what ever works in the situation or for your body type is correct.
i.e tight space tight kick, icy street different kick. boots one way, bare feet another. too many variations to just cookie cut.

The problem lies in your focus area........ the proper way to kick in the way you described it to focus and strike with he ball of the foot. You cannot snap and lock and delvier power if you are using the tarcel area of the foot. this is a sweeping across type motion with no pinpoint focus and not very strong as the weakness is in the ankle. Try kicking a concrete wall witht eh top of the foot, then use the ball you will feel the difference, when you use the ball of the foot.
The kick is much more focused and aligns the body mechanices properly. The only time you should use the tarcel bones (top of foot) is to kick the side of the thigh, if you are kicking the ribs or the head you must use the ball of the foot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dont think its the way your delivering the kick that matters, as snajuro said what ever works in the situation or for your body type is correct.
i.e tight space tight kick, icy street different kick. boots one way, bare feet another. too many variations to just cookie cut.

The problem lies in your focus area........ the proper way to kick in the way you described it to focus and strike with he ball of the foot. You cannot snap and lock and delvier power if you are using the tarcel area of the foot. this is a sweeping across type motion with no pinpoint focus and not very strong as the weakness is in the ankle. Try kicking a concrete wall witht eh top of the foot, then use the ball you will feel the difference, when you use the ball of the foot.
The kick is much more focused and aligns the body mechanices properly. The only time you should use the tarcel bones (top of foot) is to kick the side of the thigh, if you are kicking the ribs or the head you must use the ball of the foot.

yes, but the ball of the foot round kick, the "bread n butter round kick of ITF TKD and most Traditional Karate systems, is not an attacking round kick and it is not thrown in a way that MOSt are taught to throw their round kicks either, the angle is much greater so that the ball of the foot contacts and not the toes.

[EarthDragon]

agreed, however as I kick both ways I can assure you that the ball of the foot delivers much more power, more injury to your opponent and less injury to you. if that what your looking for.. as you should if your kicking.

Again the sweeping motion of say a back hand slap cannot be compared to the twist of a heel palm strike and while the hand and foot are almost the same mechanics and motion there is a huge difference.

[sanjuro_ronin]

agreed, however as I kick both ways I can assure you that the ball of the foot delivers much more power, more injury to your opponent and less injury to you. if that what your looking for.. as you should if your kicking.

Again the sweeping motion of say a back hand slap cannot be compared to the twist of a heel palm strike and while the hand and foot are almost the same mechanics and motion there is a huge difference.

Well, I know that if I am gonna break something with a round kick, its gonna be the ball of the foot and not the instep, that's for sure !!
LOL !
But, that said, the lower shin is still a "better" area for the majority of people.

[EarthDragon]

let me paly devils advocate....... how many people out here have properly taken the years and punishment to condition thier shin bone to withstand a power kick? I saw a MT guy kick a stop sign post 1/2 power with his shin and he didnt even wince. I said how long have you conditioned your shin to do that? he said daily LOL has anyone done this? be honest

[sanjuro_ronin]

let me paly devils advocate....... how many people out here have properly taken the years and punishment to condition thier shin bone to withstand a power kick? I saw a MT guy kick a stop sign post 1/2 power with his shin and he didnt even wince. I said how long have you conditioned your shin to do that? he said daily LOL has anyone done this? be honest

Nope, or those Uechi-ryu guys?
Then again, the shin is a naturally harder weapon than the ball of the foot and the question applies to those that use the ball of the foot too, how many have conditioned theirs and more importantly, their toes?

[Reverend Tap]

I dont think its the way your delivering the kick that matters, as snajuro said what ever works in the situation or for your body type is correct.
i.e tight space tight kick, icy street different kick. boots one way, bare feet another. too many variations to just cookie cut.
Well, certainly. I'm not looking for "the" kick to use, just thoughts and opinions on this particular kick as it's been a point of some difficulty in conversations with other stylists.


The problem lies in your focus area........ the proper way to kick in the way you described it to focus and strike with he ball of the foot. You cannot snap and lock and delvier power if you are using the tarcel area of the foot. this is a sweeping across type motion with no pinpoint focus and not very strong as the weakness is in the ankle. Try kicking a concrete wall witht eh top of the foot, then use the ball you will feel the difference, when you use the ball of the foot.
I see what you're saying on one level, but I'm a bit confused about your comment on the ankle. It seems to me that the setup of the ankle is stronger with the foot at full point and hitting the tarcel area, as opposed to hitting with the ball of the foot which would allow the ankle to buckle into a foot flexed position. Or are you talking about actual damage to the ankle?


The kick is much more focused and aligns the body mechanices properly. The only time you should use the tarcel bones (top of foot) is to kick the side of the thigh, if you are kicking the ribs or the head you must use the ball of the foot.
I tried throwing a few just now using the ball as the striking surface. Seems like this requires the hips to snap twice in order to allow the foot to rotate into position (from square to kick-side-forward, then back to square). Unless I'm doing it wrong, which is eminently possible, it's pretty awkward.

[golden arhat]

knee up roughly vertical slanted a bit in one fluid motion in conjuunction with teh hips snap oout your shin delivering the blow with the lower part of your shin and pushign in with the hips in one motion. thats how i do it sounds like you all have similar stories

[EarthDragon]

Well, certainly. I'm not looking for "the" kick to use, just thoughts and opinions on this particular kick as it's been a point of some difficulty in conversations with other stylists.
understood however the confusion comes because different styles and systems use different ways and this can be argued if people dont understadn the differences and why


I see what you're saying on one level, but I'm a bit confused about your comment on the ankle. It seems to me that the setup of the ankle is stronger with the foot at full point and hitting the tarcel area, as opposed to hitting with the ball of the foot which would allow the ankle to buckle into a foot flexed position. Or are you talking about actual damage to the ankle?

the ankle is never stronger than the ball of the foot as the ankle is a hinge joint and the ball of the foot is not. compare the wrist to the heel of your palm same thing


tried throwing a few just now using the ball as the striking surface. Seems like this requires the hips to snap twice in order to allow the foot to rotate into position (from square to kick-side-forward, then back to square). Unless I'm doing it wrong, which is eminently possible, it's pretty awkward.

no , chamber up, snap out, chamber back, palce leg down to fighting stance.
LOL its only akward because your not used to it, only doen it a couple times and you might not have good flexibility. if you practice it will be boviously easier.

if you want to test the differences in the kicks as I said said kick a metal post of a phone pole, you cannot possibly kick harder with the shin or the top of the foot than you can with the ball but it does take practuice and flexibility to get the hips to open. I teach my students both ways and in a little while the can kick thier opponents right in the temple with control of course...

[diego]

Nope, or those Uechi-ryu guys?
Then again, the shin is a naturally harder weapon than the ball of the foot and the question applies to those that use the ball of the foot too, how many have conditioned theirs and more importantly, their toes?

when you learn ring footwork you condition dancing on yer toes...:) just saying

[Reverend Tap]

Ok, when you folks talk about striking with the ball of the foot, are you talking about just flexing the foot and pulling the toes back, with the rest of the kick unaltered? I've been trying out every alteration I can think of that would allow using the ball of the foot and so far every other one forces my hips back to square (and no, flexibility isn't a problem; I used to be a gymnast and am one of the most flexible people at my school).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, when you folks talk about striking with the ball of the foot, are you talking about just flexing the foot and pulling the toes back, with the rest of the kick unaltered? I've been trying out every alteration I can think of that would allow using the ball of the foot and so far every other one forces my hips back to square (and no, flexibility isn't a problem; I used to be a gymnast and am one of the most flexible people at my school).

Not great, but gets the pint across:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoJNGNq-crU

[EarthDragon]

thanks for finding that sanjuro, it guess it harderrt o explain then I thought.

As you can see if you were to kick those clay tiles with the top of the foot it would hurt a bit even though they are very thin and fragile.

Now imagine kicking a concrete wall, or a 2x4 it would probably damage the top of the foot so much you would not be able to stand on it after the kick that it why i prefer the ball, the head it strong like concrete and breaking a rib is like a 2x4.

[sanjuro_ronin]

thanks for finding that sanjuro, it guess it harderrt o explain then I thought.

As you can see if you were to kick those clay tiles with the top of the foot it would hurt a bit even though they are very thin and fragile.

Now imagine kicking a concrete wall, or a 2x4 it would probably damage the top of the foot so much you would not be able to stand on it after the kick that it why i prefer the ball, the head it strong like concrete and breaking a rib is like a 2x4.

Well, the issue is one of damage to the toes.
See, moving targets are just that, moving and the slightest shift can cause contact to be made with the toes and not the ball, whereas with the lower shin ( even the instep) if you miss its a tad more forgiving.
I know that conditoning is suppose to "fix" the problem but the truth is, IF one decides to condition the toes and ball of the foot, what keeps from someone else to condition the shin and instep?
Now, personally, I find the argument kind of "irrelevant" because, if you kick in the "street" we will be wearing shoes and that will tend to take care of the toes and make ball-of-the foot kicking more effective, it wall also make shin and instep better too.
It becomes one of personal preference on HOW a round kick is used.

That said, no matter what type you choose, "forging" is a must.

[diego]

Not great, but gets the pint across:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoJNGNq-crU

in kajukenbo they like to pat the right punch with the left palm and use your boot tip to his groin :) kaido would put metal strips on his dress shoes...

[Shaolinlueb]

see sig.
23213123423536erhh for length

[Reverend Tap]

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I had been trying to turn my whole leg over 180 to use the ball.

Yeah, street usage would definitely depend on what shoes I was in. I have actually top-of-the-foot kicked hard surfaces with a pretty good amount of power in my normal street shoes, with no ill effect to my foot. I wouldn't try it in my Feiyue's, though, and my big logger boots would make for an even stranger situation, as I can neither point my foot nor curl my toes back in them. Then again, they've got steel toes. :D

And I do agree with SR regarding conditioning. I've done more conditioning work on my shins than on the balls of my feet, and I definitely don't think the shin/instep variant of the kick is useless. Guess I'll just have to train both kinds...

Shaolinlueb: would you rather we talked about forum drama? :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

Shaolinlueb: would you rather we talked about forum drama? :rolleyes:

no i actually like this.

but im waiting for abel, and 1bad to come in herre and derail the thread. first it will be about Chinese martial arts kicking, then bushido will come up, and all hell will break lose.

[Pork Chop]

let me paly devils advocate....... how many people out here have properly taken the years and punishment to condition thier shin bone to withstand a power kick? I saw a MT guy kick a stop sign post 1/2 power with his shin and he didnt even wince. I said how long have you conditioned your shin to do that? he said daily LOL has anyone done this? be honest

I have
i can spar without shin guards
i've dropped people from checking their round kicks
you could probably get there in about 50,000-100,000 kicks on a banana bag (however long it takes you to do that), it's not *that* hard.
On the other hand, I don't think I could ever do the ball of the foot round kick, my ankle & foot just don't move like that. Then again, my feet are kinda deformed (since birth).

[Shaolinlueb]

shiet, kicking metal poles........

i used to work up to it. havent touched shin conditioning in 3 years or so.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the real deal, you pansies !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pant_xwqHMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc&feature=PlayList&p=F2A4194B54619D07&playnext=1&index=12

[David Jamieson]

I use shin and instep and stay low. in and around the acl (outside of the knee) the thigh and the inside of the thigh when i can get em in.

that's when applying the things, when training i go about head height and try to get speed, balance and force as correct as i can. I also lead in with my guard up, do the kick and head out with my guard up again. just to keep the good habit. :)

[Pork Chop]

This is the real deal, you pansies !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pant_xwqHMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc&feature=PlayList&p=F2A4194B54619D07&playnext=1&index=12

In the second video, I used to know the guy doing the Kata with the pony tail very well. This was 14 years ago and I always saw him walking with a cane. Two of my high school friends were top students of his.

The lady next to the guy with the pony tail is the mom of another one of my high school friends.
The guy with the flat top I believe is her husband.

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro... OMG that reminds me of my Go Ju Ryu days. no matter what anyone says tradtional Karate is ole school hard core training.

I never left a class where I didnt limp or was black and blue the next day.

I always asked what if this doesnt work or that doesnt work to which my sensei replied than you didnt train it hard enough or enough times. There is nothing else...
BUT this is my point not many people out here will ever take the time to condition to that point.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro... OMG that reminds me of my Go Ju Ryu days. no matter what anyone says tradtional Karate is ole school hard core training.

I never left a class where I didnt limp or was black and blue the next day.

I always asked what if this doesnt work or that doesnt work to which my sensei replied than you didnt train it hard enough or enough times. There is nothing else...
BUT this is my point not many people out here will ever take the time to condition to that point.

yeah, we did some freaky thing sin my kyokushin days...

No, the vast majority of people will never condition their bodies to be "living weapons" and rightly so, this type of MA traning is not and never has been, for everyone.
My point is that, ball or instep or shin, ALL need conditioning and it is debatable which one needs more.

[Becca]

The problem lies in your focus area........ the proper way to kick in the way you described it to focus and strike with he ball of the foot. You cannot snap and lock and delvier power if you are using the tarcel area of the foot. this is a sweeping across type motion with no pinpoint focus and not very strong as the weakness is in the ankle. Try kicking a concrete wall witht eh top of the foot, then use the ball you will feel the difference, when you use the ball of the foot.
The kick is much more focused and aligns the body mechanices properly. The only time you should use the tarcel bones (top of foot) is to kick the side of the thigh, if you are kicking the ribs or the head you must use the ball of the foot.Pai Lum has that version of the rouhouse, too. He'll get to it in a few belts. ;)

The version Rev. Tap is describing is not used as a powerhous kick, but a a snap kick. The powerhouse version, i.e. with the ball of the foot, is usually used in pather style, often from the ground.:)

[EarthDragon]

becca,
understood however if you look at the body mechanics is harder to snap if you use the top of the foot as opposed to the ball for the simple yet complexed reason there is no exact point or target to snap at......... its difficult to explian but think of a invisable target in the air you can kick it with the ball of the foot and focus your hit at the exact point as the ball striking area can be pin pointed to a specific location.

Now imagine waving your hand through the air like the top of the foot... there is not an exact point of contact only a follow through motion... does this make sense to you? I am trying to expalin it simply but sometimes it hard without showing a demonstration.

[Becca]

becca,
understood however if you look at the body mechanics is harder to snap if you use the top of the foot as opposed to the ball for the simple yet complexed reason there is no exact point or target to snap at......... its difficult to explian but think of a invisable target in the air you can kick it with the ball of the foot and focus your hit at the exact point as the ball striking area can be pin pointed to a specific location.

Now imagine waving your hand through the air like the top of the foot... there is not an exact point of contact only a follow through motion... does this make sense to you? I am trying to expalin it simply but sometimes it hard without showing a demonstration.No, no trouble getting a good snap out of the top of the foot so long as you remember to turn your hip over. Punters in football manage to get a good target to kick at using the top of thier foot. You don't get the KO power, but if you miss due to a moving target or you slip or loose your balance, ect... you still make contact and it stings like a mother.....

As to waving your hand in the air, well.... I'm assuming you do realize that Pai Lum actually has several strikes like that. Usually aimed at "soft" targets like the face and throut. You snap an open palm accross someone's face, it don't mater if you conected with the eyes, it will break thier consentration.:D

I get what you are saying. The difference is in intent. Some arts use the roundhouse for one or two uses. Some use it for anything under the sun. Pai Lum uses it for everything under the sun with slight adaptations to position of the foot; things that can be adjusted mid kick if you need to change the focus.

[EarthDragon]

No, no trouble getting a good snap out of the top of the foot so long as you remember to turn your hip over.

LOL I understand but that snap is hardly what your looking for, unless you are demoing or sparring for fun
a kick is like a gun you dont use it unless you plan on ending the fight with it. I had very rarely thrown in a roundhouse kick in combat but when I did it was to break the cheekbone or the rib or knock my opponent unconcious

Punters in football manage to get a good target to kick at using the top of thier foot.
yers but this is my point its a follow through movement not a pinpoint its like a golf swing you are extending the energy acorss the whole swing....

You don't get the KO power, but if you miss due to a moving target or you slip or loose your balance, ect... you still make contact and it stings like a mother.....
I couldnt agree with you more, however if i lift my foot off the ground and risk being tackled I want to make sure it is a finshing tech. not just a sting

As to waving your hand in the air, well.... I'm assuming you do realize that Pai Lum actually has several strikes like that. Usually aimed at "soft" targets like the face and throut. You snap an open palm accross someone's face, it don't mater if you conected with the eyes, it will break thier consentration.

yes this is a set up technique used to gain more advantage to finish the confrontation all martial arts uses this distraction

I get what you are saying. The difference is in intent. Some arts use the roundhouse for one or two uses. Some use it for anything under the sun. Pai Lum uses it for everything under the sun with slight adaptations to position of the foot; things that can be adjusted mid kick if you need to change the focus.

correct intent, I teach kick to kill sort of speak, if you are willing to risk lifting your foot off the ground you better be good at it or you will pay the price.
again i agree with you for the most part and it depends if we are talking about class time or in the alley at night.

[Reverend Tap]

Pai Lum has that version of the rouhouse, too. He'll get to it in a few belts. ;)

Heh. Good to know.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of snap kicks overall at this point, I like the power I get out of a good side kick better. They're fun to throw in sparring to get my opponent unsettled, though. :D

Heading to my 7th lower test on Saturday, wish me luck! :)

[Shaolinlueb]

This is the real deal, you pansies !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pant_xwqHMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc&feature=PlayList&p=F2A4194B54619D07&playnext=1&index=12

eh my sihing can do that stuff. and im usually the guy breaking hard wood over him. not that cheap stuff. shins, forarms, head, groin.

[Becca]

Snap kicks have thier uses. Not everyone likes them. I personnaly prefer to get in nice and close (prolly 'cause I'm barely 5 foot tall. ;) ) and finish with chin na or grappling techniques. Snap kicks are a great tool for opening up an oponant.

[Reverend Tap]

Heading to my 7th lower test on Saturday, wish me luck! :)

Ego update: test is complete and typing is currently the most strenuous activity I'm still capable of.

Gotta love it. :D

[bawang]

hi guys, what is a snap kick? i never hear of that term?

[Becca]

Heading to my 7th lower test on Saturday, wish me luck! :)belated good luck wished' :)

[mickey]

Greetings,

I learned the roundhouse kick as first posted many years ago. My mind catalogs it as an arcing roundhouse kick. I learned it during a transitional period in MA where safety gear for sparring was being introduced. So, what I learned as a technique that made contact with the ball of the foot became a technique done with the instep as the contact surface.

There is only one problem with this kick in the description and it causes a shearing action to the knee when doing the arcing motion. This happens when the practitioner adheres to the technical breakdown of holding the shin vertical the way it was first learned. The kick actually SPIRALS out to the target; so, holding the shin vertical before execution is detrimental. The shin should be pulled back toward the hamstrings. Once the knee begins lifting there should be a rotation of the hip that takes the foot to the target.



mickey

[golden arhat]

Not great, but gets the pint across:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoJNGNq-crU

oh my god that is the complete wrong way to do a roundhouse kick and the complete right way to get your self injured

striking should be done with the bottom of the shin joining onto the foot but more shin

[EarthDragon]

Goldenarhat,
oh my god that is the complete wrong way to do a roundhouse kick and the complete right way to get your self injured

striking should be done with the bottom of the shin joining onto the foot but more shin


are you reading all the posts in this whole thread? That is the CORRECT way to throw a roundhouse kick ie the video. There are variations among styles and belt levels but I can assure you thats the proper.

the bottom of the shin? you mean the ankle??? again kick a stop sign or a No parking sign (whatevers closer to your house) with the bottom of your shin, then come back inside and post here how much pain your in and how you had to hobble up the stairs to your computer....

[Becca]

ED - no one is arguing that the bridge of the foot is the wrong surface to use when the target is "hard", like a sign post, or if you're looking for a power kick. Not every kick has to be a power kick, 'specially since power kicks are slower and more readily tellegraphed.

As you've stated, you don't feel the need for snap kicks. Some of use do, and have found great uses for them.

[EarthDragon]

Becca, absolutely I totally agree. and I do use a quick snap kick to set up for a throw or to direct my opponenets attentionlow so that i can then attack high.
As they say there si never onesure way to do anything..... be well

[Lucas]

hi guys, what is a snap kick? i never hear of that term?

they means like a front toe kick/top of foot. example: lower chin. or groin

in line drills often u see kicking people kicking at head high and smacking the top of their foot. you probably do this kick but just call it something else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, a snap kick is any kick that goes out and "snaps" back.
Different than a thrust kicks that goes out and "lands forward", a more committed kick.

[Lucas]

Actually, a snap kick is any kick that goes out and "snaps" back.
Different than a thrust kicks that goes out and "lands forward", a more committed kick.

ah now my eyes see.

we always called those kicks with snap. probably because my teacher called what i described a snap kick. maybe because his english is poor. dunno.

we also call our roundhouse a saber kick. most our kicks had different names than the norm.

edit: on further thought he may have called them that because there is always a snap to the front toe kick like that. though he drilled us to snap all our kicks, with a few exceptions.

[bawang]

thanks lucas i get it its like a basic front kick i think i was teach it called spring kick flat foot and heart pierce kick with toe

[Lucas]

thanks lucas i get it its like a basic front kick i think i was teach it called spring kick flat foot and heart pierce kick with toe

from what i was saying ya. but now SJ saying that they were refer to ANY kick that you are snapping /quick withdrawl instead of followthrough/push.

but ya i was picturing hearth pierce kick/spring leg/kick.

[EarthDragon]

allow me to clairify...........differences if I may

lets take for example a front kick. it can be done in variuos ways

1. front scoop kick, focus is on the top of the foot, target is the groin. upward sweeping motion slower than most but hard to see this kick.

2. front snap kick, focus is in the ball of the foot toes pointed back, target side back or front of knee, chin, xyphoid process, floating rib. forward snap kick quikcer and more direct then the scoop.

3. thrust front kick, focus in the heel, ball of the foot and toes pulled back, target the bladder, stomach kidney, thrusting motion, pushing away and through your target

[Becca]

they means like a front toe kick/top of foot. example: lower chin. or groin

in line drills often u see kicking people kicking at head high and smacking the top of their foot. you probably do this kick but just call it something else.
Also a quick, sharp kick vs a power kick. Some power kicks can't be done as a snap kick, such as a wheel kick or a crescent kick. Most of the "basic" kicks can be snapped, though.

Think snapping a towel: sharp, noisy, annoying but not overly damaging. You use the top of the foot becacause human anatomy allows you to sling your leg loosely to get a good snap; you don't tense for impact untill you actually make impact. But the ankle is not strong enough to put any power behind this; you need more structure. By flexing your foot, you A) impact with the ball of your foot instead and B) add the mechanical structure needed to transmit full available power. But you can't deliver as fast.

By "can't deliver as fast" I mean only a difference in, like, milli seconds. BUT, against an evenly matched sparring partner, that's all it takes to loose. Also, you cannot flex your foot without tellegraphing at lest a bit, and an experienced opponant will know what to look for. Also, most all types of snap kick can be delivered from a front chambered position, with the only indication of what's comming showing right before impact. :)

[SanHeChuan]

Whoa Whoa Whoa, Heart Piercing is with the heel. There is nooo waaay you could send the xiphoid process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiphoid_process)through the pericardium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericardium)with your toe :rolleyes: I mean come ooon guys. You didn't think you were going to pierce the heart with the toe did you.

:p;):D

[mickey]

Greetings,

Southern Heart Piercing Kick is done with the heel.

Northern Heart Piercing Kick is done with the toes.


mickey

[golden arhat]

Goldenarhat,
oh my god that is the complete wrong way to do a roundhouse kick and the complete right way to get your self injured

striking should be done with the bottom of the shin joining onto the foot but more shin


are you reading all the posts in this whole thread? That is the CORRECT way to throw a roundhouse kick ie the video. There are variations among styles and belt levels but I can assure you thats the proper.

the bottom of the shin? you mean the ankle??? again kick a stop sign or a No parking sign (whatevers closer to your house) with the bottom of your shin, then come back inside and post here how much pain your in and how you had to hobble up the stairs to your computer....

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33p8rr9&s=5 here is where i meant


the onl time i would use the ball of my foot is for a straight up push kick to the gut or the face

this is how i do turning (roundhouse) kicks usually varying in height obviously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcPIJFYmEW4&feature=related
pay attention to the first technique

[Lucas]

whats in a name :rolleyes:

:p

[EarthDragon]

becca, I agree with most of what you are saying except

Some power kicks can't be done as a snap kick, such as a wheel kick or a crescent kick. Most of the "basic" kicks can be snapped, though.

A cresent kick is a snap kick... you bring the right kneew knee then snap the foot counter clockwise in a inside circle to your target ie right side of the face or head of your opponent. this kick snaps pretty good, not very powerful but when done you can hear and feel the snap of the shoe laces, pants or foot in general.

Sanhechaun,.......................

I was the one who said xyphoid process is the target. the goal is just to bend this bone just a touch so that the nerve endings are confused for a second causing tempoary confusion within the brain. I would not be ridiculous and say it will break off and pierce the heart!
I am a realistic teacher and fighter. I know what works and what is best saved for the movies........ the 5 figner death touch or the poison palm dimmak is in next week episode of "as the kung fu world crumbles"

[MasterKiller]

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33p8rr9&s=5 here is where i meant


the onl time i would use the ball of my foot is for a straight up push kick to the gut or the face

this is how i do turning (roundhouse) kicks usually varying in height obviously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcPIJFYmEW4&feature=related
pay attention to the first technique

There's not a 'wrong' way, young padawan. The Muay Thai shin kick does what it is supposed to do, and the CMA toe kick does what it is supposed to do.

Would you rather have a hammer or a screwdriver? The answer, or course, depends on the job at hand...

[Becca]

becca, I agree with most of what you are saying except

Some power kicks can't be done as a snap kick, such as a wheel kick or a crescent kick. Most of the "basic" kicks can be snapped, though.

A cresent kick is a snap kick... you bring the right kneew knee then snap the foot counter clockwise in a inside circle to your target ie right side of the face or head of your opponent. this kick snaps pretty good, not very powerful but when done you can hear and feel the snap of the shoe laces, pants or foot in general.


Why would the shoe laces be snapping? Contact is made with the side of the foot? And done right, a crescent is a KO kick. It is more of a whip kick than a snap kick; once it's launched you gotta follow through. A snap kicj can be aborted at any point.

sanjuro_ronin said it nicely a few posts ago:
a snap kick is any kick that goes out and "snaps" back.
Different than a thrust kicks that goes out and "lands forward", a more committed kick.

[Lucas]

Also a quick, sharp kick vs a power kick. Some power kicks can't be done as a snap kick, such as a wheel kick or a crescent kick. Most of the "basic" kicks can be snapped, though.

Think snapping a towel: sharp, noisy, annoying but not overly damaging. You use the top of the foot becacause human anatomy allows you to sling your leg loosely to get a good snap; you don't tense for impact untill you actually make impact. But the ankle is not strong enough to put any power behind this; you need more structure. By flexing your foot, you A) impact with the ball of your foot instead and B) add the mechanical structure needed to transmit full available power. But you can't deliver as fast.

By "can't deliver as fast" I mean only a difference in, like, milli seconds. BUT, against an evenly matched sparring partner, that's all it takes to loose. Also, you cannot flex your foot without tellegraphing at lest a bit, and an experienced opponant will know what to look for. Also, most all types of snap kick can be delivered from a front chambered position, with the only indication of what's comming showing right before impact. :)

read my following posts after the one u quoted :p ;)

[Lucas]

ya ive always done my crescent kicks as whips with follow through. although i dont like outside crescents much. but insides are sleek.

im trying to picture snap with recoil on a crescent...

[EarthDragon]

becca,
OK saying whipping type instead of snaping type is better. I will definalty except that and probably is more accurate than saying snap. I agree

I was talking about the sounds the laces make when doing it in the air. you cannot snap or whip with an outside cresent like you can with in inside, different body mechanics.

I will argue however that a cresent kick would be almost impossible to be considered a knock out kick. to knock someone uncoinciousnes one must..

A. make the brain "slosh around" enough in the grey matter to shut down
involuntary motion. ie. hit strong enough to the side or back of the head
B. bend the obdulaoblongotta to the point where it shuts down the brain
and body function to prepare it to withstand injury. ie under the chin

Neither of the actions can be done with a cresent kick..........unless of course its a fluke and you kick them and they turn the wrong way or they fall from or slip a result of the kick and hit thier head on the pavment.
truth is the body just cannot generate enough power with this type of kick.

[Lucas]

becca,
OK saying whipping type instead of snaping type is better. I will definalty except that and probably is more accurate than saying snap. I agree

I was talking about the sounds the laces make when doing it in the air. you cannot snap or whip with an outside cresent like you can with in inside, different body mechanics.

I will argue however that a cresent kick would be almost impossible to be considered a knock out kick. to knock someone uncoinciousnes one must..

A. make the brain "slosh around" enough in the grey matter to shut down
involuntary motion. ie. hit strong enough to the side or back of the head
B. bend the obdulaoblongotta to the point where it shuts down the brain
and body function to prepare it to withstand injury. ie under the chin

Neither of the actions can be done with a cresent kick..........unless of course its a fluke and you kick them and they turn the wrong way or they fall from or slip a result of the kick and hit thier head on the pavment.
truth is the body just cannot generate enough power with this type of kick.

Ive been KOd by an inside crescent, connected right my jaw, in in upward and inward motion, bit through my mouthpiece and hit the floor. got up and started sparring again.

[Lucas]

disclaimer:

I was a total noob when i got ktfo by that kick. but it worked.

[bawang]

hay guys
guys
guys

have u guys noticed that a lot of karate and taekwondo guys are roundhouse kicking bags at gyms and pretending they know muay thai and mma? lolololololol

[EarthDragon]

Lucus......... thats why I said ALMOST.... I have seen someone walk into a door and hit thier head and fell down uncoincious......... but would you say that doors knock people out?

[Becca]

becca,
OK saying whipping type instead of snaping type is better. I will definalty except that and probably is more accurate than saying snap. I agree
Sort of. With Snap kick and whip kick being designated as seperat "types." You can snap most basic kicks, but you can't whip them.

I was talking about the sounds the laces make when doing it in the air. you cannot snap or whip with an outside cresent like you can with in inside, different body mechanics.I see what you mean with the shoe laces now. Yes, you can whip an outside crescent, but you are right that it doesn't make the shoe laces "sing." Same body mechanics and all. kick foot as high as you need it, then torq your hip over has hard as you can. Causes the foot to whip up in an arch then slam back down to it's starting point. Abort the swing at the pinicle with a secondary hip jerk you get an axe (a.k.a "swan") kick.


I will argue however that a cresent kick would be almost impossible to be considered a knock out kick. to knock someone uncoinciousnes one must..

A. make the brain "slosh around" enough in the grey matter to shut down
involuntary motion. ie. hit strong enough to the side or back of the head
B. bend the obdulaoblongotta to the point where it shuts down the brain
and body function to prepare it to withstand injury. ie under the chin

Every one has a glass jaw, you just got to hit it right. If your aim is good, you got a 50/50 chance of getting the sweet spot.


Neither of the actions can be done with a cresent kick..........unless of course its a fluke and you kick them and they turn the wrong way or they fall from or slip a result of the kick and hit thier head on the pavment.
truth is the body just cannot generate enough power with this type of kick.We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. :)

[EarthDragon]

becca,

nice discussion. your points are valid. I would just ask it this KO kick your talking about in real combat, gage fighting, tournaments or classroom?


Have you personally ever or ever seen a KO with this type of kick? I have not I have only seen a KO with a roundhouse to the side of the head in a full contact tourney ISKA back in the day and also in a UFC cant remember the number.

But I was just curious as to your experience with this.

[Pork Chop]

have u guys noticed that a lot of karate and taekwondo guys are roundhouse kicking bags at gyms and pretending they know muay thai and mma? lolololololol

there are at least 4 tae kwon do schools in my town passing their stuff as legit muay thai.

[EarthDragon]

LOL
there is at least 4 tae kown do schools in my town passing thier stuff as legitimate tae kwon do! :D

[Lucas]

funny thing is after i got KOd and got back up, i got kicked by the SAME EXACT KICK. as i said i was a noob. but i can tell you my sparring partner taught me one of my first valuable lessons.

the second kick while it rocked me, i kept my feet and kept moving. his third kick try didnt work.

the thing i like most about the inside crescent is the range and quickness in its usage. used at the right time, it can be a relatively close range kick, still targeting the head. of course a lot of times a punch would be better employed here, but as they say a time and place for everything.

[Becca]

becca,

nice discussion. your points are valid. I would just ask it this KO kick your talking about in real combat, gage fighting, tournaments or classroom?


Have you personally ever or ever seen a KO with this type of kick? I have not I have only seen a KO with a roundhouse to the side of the head in a full contact tourney ISKA back in the day and also in a UFC cant remember the number.

But I was just curious as to your experience with this.Have't used it but have been ko'd by it once and dazed several times. My former kwoon had a Friday sparring club; I'd go as often as I could. The whole point was to allow those who wanted to go full or hard contact to meet up with other like-minded people where the instructors could focus on us being safe without worrying about a class full of non-pscyco sprring nuts. As to my having not used it - I'm an infighter. Not my cup of tea. But I got d@mn good at getting around them.;):D