Northern Mantis Chi sao?

[Hardwork108]

Hello,

I am aware of the fact that Northern Mantis style(s) is a very rich system that covers all ranges and is blessed with a rich variety of techniques. This makes me assume that you guys also have exercises that develop "sensitivity", "listening" and bridging aspects.

As the title of this thread implies I am curious to see if you guys practise a form of chi sao or equivalent to gain the attributes mentioned in the above paragraph. If so please give a more or less simple explanation on how you train these.

Thanks.:)

[notanexit]

I did crossing or "sticky" hands when I trained mantis.I did'nt touch hands with the teacher.For some reason(SCARED)he NEVER did sticky hands or spar with me or the other senior students.But thats another story.Sticky hands does train listening skills but when sparring it does nothing for you.It can be bad in some ways.For example,during the short-lived sparring class,the wing chun and other mantis students would look for a bridge so they could try their sticking skills.While they were looking for a bridge I would just punch them in the face.I actually got in "trouble" for this and was told to let them use their techniques so they could "win".

[BeiTangLang]

the wing chun and other mantis students would look for a bridge so they could try their sticking skills.While they were looking for a bridge I would just punch them in the face.

Sounds like they missed making the bridge then..lol.

I do have to disagree with you though. While chi sao is not meant to be sparring, it does teach sensitivity & reaction skills that one can use when sparring.

I agree that sparring (as in fighting) usually will not have any lengthly exchanges if good strikes are being made, but some of the exchanges leaned through doing chi sao can teach you to shorten those exchanges if a bridge is in fact made.

Also, not to sound rude, but if you really think your teacher was scared,maybe you should just go test that theory rather than keep bringing it up. Life is too short to hold a grudge like you are carrying around. Resolve it.

Best wishes to all,
BTL

[EarthDragon]

As chi sao tui sao implies these are sticky hands and pushing hands most known in wingchun and taji. But mantis uses similar variations of these in our 12 priciples and in Jing applications.

The few that come to mind are

ZHAN - ( CONTACTING ) MEETING OPPONENTS FORCE

NIAN - ( STICKING ) MOVING WITH OPPONENTS MOVEMENTS

BANG - ( LINKING ) KENTIC ENERGY

And in terms of Jing

Trapping- Kun
Sticking- Nien
Neutralizing-Hua
Intercepting-Jie
Listening-Ting

These are all important tovewr come your opponent using his YI or intent before reflex.

notanexit,
as I read ALL of your posts in the last 6 months or so you seem to (as Bei) said sound bitter and need to let it go.
Its really getting bothersome that every post you reply to you need to throw in a jab at your ex teacher.

My God man find another one and move on with your life.

And to say that you teacher is scared to spar you is just ridiculous.

As well as when trying to do say push hands excerisize you breaking the connection and mving faster then punching them in the face perhaps it was the teacher who through YOU out! I would not tolerate that type of behavior in my class.

Dont know what your motivation is to do that but if you ever wish to cross hands with a mantis practicioner to see how effective mantis is by all means make you way up to NY and I will match you up with some of my begginer students...

[Hardwork108]

Thank you EarthDragon.


As chi sao tui sao implies these are sticky hands and pushing hands most known in wingchun and taji. But mantis uses similar variations of these in our 12 priciples and in Jing applications.

The few that come to mind are

ZHAN - ( CONTACTING ) MEETING OPPONENTS FORCE

NIAN - ( STICKING ) MOVING WITH OPPONENTS MOVEMENTS

BANG - ( LINKING ) KENTIC ENERGY


Are the above trained in fixed, free flowing two man exercises or both types of exercises?



And in terms of Jing

Trapping- Kun
Sticking- Nien
Neutralizing-Hua
Intercepting-Jie
Listening-Ting


Familiar concepts from the Wing Chun point of view.:)


These are all important to overcome your opponent using his YI or intent before reflex.

You mean "jamming" or neutralizing him as soon as you "feel" his intent (through your bridge) as opposed to catching and stopping him halfway through his offence?

[EarthDragon]

Are the above trained in fixed, free flowing two man exercises or both types of exercises?

technically they are trained with an (opponent) or in a school (partner)

You mean "jamming" or neutralizing him as soon as you "feel" his intent (through your bridge) as opposed to catching and stopping him halfway through his offence?

correct, you should never try to stop force.... this is wrong, you must always allow his motion to come and just redirect it then use it against him.... this is a higher level..
the level i am working on now is to read the YI form the opponents thought before you "feel" ........this is again reacting to the reaction which is always slower... if you can read the intent beofre he moves you are always faster... to not be there when the punch is thrown is the ultimate defense but this takes decades...

[Hardwork108]

Are the above trained in fixed, free flowing two man exercises or both types of exercises?

technically they are trained with an (opponent) or in a school (partner)

You mean "jamming" or neutralizing him as soon as you "feel" his intent (through your bridge) as opposed to catching and stopping him halfway through his offence?

correct, you should never try to stop force.... this is wrong, you must always allow his motion to come and just redirect it then use it against him.... this is a higher level..
the level i am working on now is to read the YI form the opponents thought before you "feel" ........this is again reacting to the reaction which is always slower... if you can read the intent beofre he moves you are always faster... to not be there when the punch is thrown is the ultimate defense but this takes decades...

I understand now. Thank you.

I suspect that in another scenario you can even stop the motion from a physically more powerful person if you "catch" his intent before he moves and jam him with a push or even re-direction.

[EarthDragon]

absolutely, the key is to not have to react to him but rather act prior, this will enable you to be one step ahead.

[monkeyfoot]

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGJMm-AVmA&feature=channel_page

Good example me thinks

Craig

[Tainan Mantis]

[B] you should never try to stop force....

Never say never...

[EarthDragon]

Yes Tainan you are correct, there are times when this is neccesary..... I should have known never to say never from James Bond...

[notanexit]

Sounds like they missed making the bridge then..lol.

I do have to disagree with you though. While chi sao is not meant to be sparring, it does teach sensitivity & reaction skills that one can use when sparring.

That's were I found the flaws in the training.The students are trained to do techniques against a partner who GAVE them EXACT bridge so they could use sticky hands or chi sao.But when sparring those bridges weren't there.The previous training only gave them false confidence because they were used to working with a complaint partner.That's why I and others got in trouble.I had to LET them WIN in order to restore that false confidence.


I agree that sparring (as in fighting) usually will not have any lengthly exchanges if good strikes are being made, but some of the exchanges leaned through doing chi sao can teach you to shorten those exchanges if a bridge is in fact made.
Yes,with proper training
Also, not to sound rude, but if you really think your teacher was scared,maybe you should just go test that theory rather than keep bringing it up. Life is too short to hold a grudge like you are carrying around. Resolve it.

Best wishes to all,
BTL

I had a thread here a couple of weeks ago in which I stated that I would like to settle this face to face.But it was deleted(Disciple:Wah!! Gene he's talking about me make it stop Wah!!:()I even gave an example of his cowardice in which he backstabbed me and relayed it to some senior students (knowing that they would tell me)Because he did'nt have the guts to tell me himself.Just letting the truth be known.He is whats wrong with cma.



As chi sao tui sao implies these are sticky hands and pushing hands most known in wingchun and taji. But mantis uses similar variations of these in our 12 priciples and in Jing applications.

The few that come to mind are

ZHAN - ( CONTACTING ) MEETING OPPONENTS FORCE

NIAN - ( STICKING ) MOVING WITH OPPONENTS MOVEMENTS

BANG - ( LINKING ) KENTIC ENERGY

And in terms of Jing

Trapping- Kun
Sticking- Nien
Neutralizing-Hua
Intercepting-Jie
Listening-Ting

These are all important tovewr come your opponent using his YI or intent before reflex.

I studied that same theory.You know what I found out?It's different trying to apply them against a resisting opponent.Very different.
notanexit,
as I read ALL of your posts in the last 6 months or so you seem to (as Bei) said sound bitter and need to let it go.
Its really getting bothersome that every post you reply to you need to throw in a jab at your ex teacher.

He has a thread about me in his forum,is that bothersome to you as well?There is a thing called the first amendment(for right now).You dont have to read ANY of my posts or respond to them.
My God man find another one and move on with your life.

And to say that you teacher is scared to spar you is just ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous?He had plenty of oppurtunity to cross hands or spar me and other senior students,NEVER happened.I read and see other teachers sparring their students.
As well as when trying to do say push hands excerisize you breaking the connection and mving faster then punching them in the face perhaps it was the teacher who through YOU out! I would not tolerate that type of behavior in my class.
Was not doing push hands,I was sparring

Dont know what your motivation is to do that but if you ever wish to cross hands with a mantis practicioner to see how effective mantis is by all means make you way up to NY and I will match you up with some of my begginer students...Why your beginner students?Why not you?I'll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you're so great:rolleyes:) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu "mystique" you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the "sifu".

[mantid1]

I dont think it is so bad that an instructor wont go full contact with his students.

I have students that more than likely can kick my a$$. Doesnt bother me any....in fact I am very proud of it. Isnt that the point....to make your students better than you? If not each generation gets weaker and weaker.....with a bunch of idiots representing your style.

The person who trains a student for a year or so....and cant get the student to the level that they can give them a good fight or even defeat them on a good day is holding out or just a TERRIBLE teacher. This is assuming the student is still in his youth, trains hard and fights full contact several times a week. It may also be a little harder if the instructor is 6ft 4in 280lbs going against a 5ft 3in 105lb student.....you get the point.

My students show me total respect and have no problem with me not fighting them. They know a big part of the reason they can handle themselves in a full contact situation is because of what I taught them...not because I fought them everyday.

I have a feeling Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr) could have kicked his trainers a$$....but I havnt seen any clips of him talking smack about his teachers.

So, Notanexit...you sound like a fantastic fighter...I would suggest you open your own school and take on all challengers.....just hope your not a light contact fighter...could be bad for you.

Or you can take my approach to challenges. If someone wants to fight me they have to start with the lowest ranking beginner and go all the way up through each student in the school. If they can make it and not get defeated....they shoud be so tired by the time they get to me I can just push them over.:)

[yu shan]

Good points Mantid. Cassius Clays long time coach Angelo Dundee more than likely never got in the ring and fought him but coached him to bring out the best in him. Usually great fighters had great coaches. I feel as if my approach to teaching kung fu is more like a coach than teacher. Maybe it was the way I was brought up in America being coached all those years in American sports. I to am very happy with some of my folks and their martial achievements. My goal is for them to be better than me. Ha ha, start the challenge with your lower ranks, your a funny guy Mantid. Knowing you have fearsome german shephards watching over things at your school, not sure if I would make a challenge. ;)

Shifu taught us a nifty way of applying applications out of a form using "pressing palms".

[EarthDragon]

notanexit,

Why your beginner students?Why not you?I'll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you're so great) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu "mystique" you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the "sifu".

Please understand I am not calling you a beginer or said you cant fight, I dont know you so I will not make these assumptions. But you must realize that you just cant walk into a school off the street and expect the sifu to fight you.
This is never going to happen for many reasons some I will share with you.

1.What person in thier right mind would be....first off, at the skill level to possibly being able to get a few shots in on a sifu and secondly...... if they have achieved such a level of skill there will obviously be some respect and dicipline invloved to which they would not have something to prove as well.

2.Why would I waste my time? what do I have to prove to that individal?

3. I would want to see how this person did aginst my lower level students.. if my students beat them , then again why would I bother. If I am the fastest runner at my school, would the new kid challenge the fastest? no, he would race against the slowest and work up form there, and see where he fit.

4. Insurance.... If it fight someone walking in off the street and split thier head open or break thier nose, who's to say they wont come back and sue me for my school, my house, and everything I own?

5.Respect.... out of respect for onesself these challenges will never work. who needs to show more respect the hot head or the teacher? the hot head could be a crack head while the teacher is a pillar in the community.

So YES thier are bad teachers out there and weak ones who cant fight thier way out of a wet paper bag I know this trust me.
I see them all the time, we have so many crappy MA schools in NY you couldnt imagine and I poke fun at them all the time. We have a kung fu school on my street that wears japanese Gi's for Christs sake.

But its up to the individual to find what he seeks. thats why I have taught so many experianced MA's I have taken in 7 BB into my system and re taught them our way, more so than any other school in Buffalo.. Why??? because I am first and foremost a fighter

[notanexit]

So, Notanexit...you sound like a fantastic fighter...I would suggest you open your own school and take on all challengers.....just hope your not a light contact fighter...could be bad for you
Its not that I'm some great fighter.It's that I was able to see that the training had flaws.Students spent most of their class time doing techniques that depended on the other students blocking "correctly" so the attacking student could do the next cool move.But when sparring it took them out of that element and they did'nt know what to do.These were not beginners,they were "advanced".Its a good thing the class was closed to the beginner students.If they saw what I saw they would've quit.

notanexit,

Why your beginner students?Why not you?I'll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you're so great) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu "mystique" you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the "sifu".

Please understand I am not calling you a beginer or said you cant fight, I dont know you so I will not make these assumptions. But you must realize that you just cant walk into a school off the street and expect the sifu to fight you.
This is never going to happen for many reasons some I will share with you.

1.What person in thier right mind would be....first off, at the skill level to possibly being able to get a few shots in on a sifu and secondly...... if they have achieved such a level of skill there will obviously be some respect and dicipline invloved to which they would not have something to prove as well.

2.Why would I waste my time? what do I have to prove to that individal?

3. I would want to see how this person did aginst my lower level students.. if my students beat them , then again why would I bother. If I am the fastest runner at my school, would the new kid challenge the fastest? no, he would race against the slowest and work up form there, and see where he fit. From my point of view,if you're a sifu then you must be good.Most people want to see why you have the title of sifu.We went to different schools, because when a new kid showed up,he would challenge the fastest runners in school.If he wins he makes a name for himself and he immediately makes new friends(especially if he wins).

[EarthDragon]

notanexit, Please read this
you said
From my point of view,if you're a sifu then you must be good.Most people want to see why you have the title of sifu.We went to different schools, because when a new kid showed up,he would challenge the fastest runners in school.If he wins he makes a name for himself and he immediately makes new friends(especially if he wins).

when someone walks in to my school, I will always demonstrate the flavor of our system. This may include me showing them our footwork, counters, blocks, throws, jointlocks etc etc
its apparent that I know what I am doing by the flow, form, confidence and effectivness of my movements.
If this is not enough for them to make a decision to join, I always invite them for a free class or two.
Teachers are judged also by thier students.. if thier students look sloppy or uncoordinated and lack power and technique you know the teacher is either
A. Not good at correcting or doesnt care about perfection ie. BB factory
B. not good a relying the information he has to his students. good MA's dont always make good teaches and visa versa.

But if that same person walked into my school and asked to actually fight me I would obviously decline.
Not that I dont have total confidence in my abilites, but what good will come out if it?
what if i break his wrist, rib, nose or finger? this is what I target when i fight.
what if I throw him and bruise his lungs when he doesnt know enough to exhale when slamed on his back?
What if i hit this guy and hurt him severally?....... law suit
What if I just beat him and embarass him to the point where hew comes back and throws a rock throgh my plate glass window? or breaks my 2000.00 lighted sign out front?

as I said nothing good will come out of it.... OK from your point of view .......lets say I do accept to fight and it goes 100% perfectly.... he attackes I counter and hit the kid just once we bow and he laughs becuse he knows I won..... and he says OK your good eough to teach me where do I sign? what good comes out of that? I satisfy his ego? I get a new student? Hell I get walks in all the time and students join every month.LOL
why woulds I jepordize my entire career and my school for 1 extra student with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove?

You must look at it from a school owners point of view.. not from a angry ex student of another school whos bitter and looking to prove something to himself... I feel thats what you are and that why you are saying what your saying... I understand your resentment but let it go......If you go to a resturant and you dont like the experience for whatever reason dont eat there again... there are plenty of other places to eat.. get rid of the grudge you have your shoulders are only so strong.......... let go of the weight nontanexit you will feel much better........... be well my friend

[mantid1]

This thread reminds me of a nice quote.

"Somewhere...someone is training harder than you are.....and when you meet
him...he will beat you".

This is a fact....it doesnt matter if you are a teacher or student.

I dont believe in the old saying...."there is always someone out there who can beat you". I prefer to say "remember....there is probably a million people out there who can beat you....so you are better off keeping your mouth shut".

Exit...I understand where you are coming from but....there are MANY teachers out there who teach the drills and talk the philosophy that havent experienced the true violence of a fight....and as a result do not know where they stand.

Keeping on topic....I watched a guy who trained in Wing Chun fight in Lei tei. It is a good way of testing your skills because it is fairly unlimited....and you should be able to demonstrate your style. This little dude kicked everybodys a$$. You couldnt tell his style...because when it comes down to it...all of the drills and theory including chi sao taught in class do not work as well as you like to think. The guys who tried to fight with "style" got faces kicked in.

Why did this guy win? Because he was a tiger....trained and fought full contact all of the time and he could take pain.

I saw another guy get his arm broken by a roundhouse kick....what drill or theory would have stopped that?

75% of the drills and other things different styles do is ornamental. I dont have a problem with that...because it is a martial "art" but you have to know where you stand when it comes to combat.

[Three Harmonies]

True dat! Nice post!

[notanexit]

You must look at it from a school owners point of view.. not from a angry ex student of another school whos bitter and looking to prove something to himself... I feel thats what you are and that why you are saying what your saying... I understand your resentment but let it go......If you go to a resturant and you dont like the experience for whatever reason dont eat there again... there are plenty of other places to eat.. get rid of the grudge you have your shoulders are only so strong.......... let go of the weight nontanexit you will feel much better........... be well my friend
Resturant is a good analogy.If I tell you that a certain resturant is stealing recipes from other resturants and selling the food as "authentic" and original,would you continue praising that resturant?Would you eat there?Would'nt you feel that the customers are getting ripped off?I can see why the country is a mess.People(bankers,CEO's)rip us off in front of our faces,not only we do nothing about it,we PAY for it.That should tick you off,but instead "let it go" you're just "bitter".I will not be written off as "bitter".He knows I'm telling the truth.That's why he responded with a altered letter.




]Exit...I understand where you are coming from but....there are MANY teachers out there who teach the drills and talk the philosophy that havent experienced the true violence of a fight....and as a result do not know where they stand.
Correct,as a result that teacher has to keep on adding things from other styles and riding the coattails of real teachers in order to make himself legit.

Keeping on topic....I watched a guy who trained in Wing Chun fight in Lei tei. It is a good way of testing your skills because it is fairly unlimited....and you should be able to demonstrate your style. This little dude kicked everybodys a$$. You couldnt tell his style...because when it comes down to it...all of the drills and theory including chi sao taught in class do not work as well as you like to think. The guys who tried to fight with "style" got faces kicked in.
Very true.Who would you blame, teacher or student?

I saw another guy get his arm broken by a roundhouse kick....what drill or theory would have stopped that?
None.But maybe if he had better training and training methods maybe it would've happened.

75% of the drills and other things different styles do is ornamental. I dont have a problem with that...because it is a martial "art" but you have to know where you stand when it comes to combat.
I agree,but you need a qualified instructor to show you.I didn't get that from mine.It took working out alone,with other senior students during off time,and reading and studying real fighters and teachers to understand.

[mantid1]

I tried to give you some good information but you fail to understand.

I could complain about what my first teacher was lacking as far as traditional CMA is concerned. But, intead I appreciate the Judo/grappling and down to earth fighting theory and techniques I learned from him. I went on and trained in other styles and filled in the gaps of what I felt was missing. Crying, whining and talking bad about my previous instructors would have only retarded my training and shown my lack of character.

At least your old teacher had enough ambition to go out...get information and make up a style. It seems you lack the ambition to move on and better yourself as a martial artist.

Good luck in your search! I am sure you will learn everything you need right here on the net.

[EarthDragon]

notanexit
I used the resturant analogy to say if you dont like he food dont eat there.

Now from your analogy the resturant stole recipes and claimed to be authentic...OK if they stole the recipes and I liked the food?
yes I would eat there. I dont care how they got thier food ideas the point is do I like them?
I would'nt care if i sat down and the ordered from the place aross the street if i liked the atmosphere and service.

the word bitter is prevailant in every single one of your posts, thats why i said bitter.
My God man MOVE ON! stop poluting every thread with what happned to you, you sound like a highschool girl whos boy friend cheated on her,
take what you learned and practice it or learn form someone else and practice that, but geez, get over it. you sound pathetic

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread reminds me of a nice quote.

"Somewhere...someone is training harder than you are.....and when you meet
him...he will beat you".

This is a fact....it doesnt matter if you are a teacher or student.

I dont believe in the old saying...."there is always someone out there who can beat you". I prefer to say "remember....there is probably a million people out there who can beat you....so you are better off keeping your mouth shut".

Exit...I understand where you are coming from but....there are MANY teachers out there who teach the drills and talk the philosophy that havent experienced the true violence of a fight....and as a result do not know where they stand.

Keeping on topic....I watched a guy who trained in Wing Chun fight in Lei tei. It is a good way of testing your skills because it is fairly unlimited....and you should be able to demonstrate your style. This little dude kicked everybodys a$$. You couldnt tell his style...because when it comes down to it...all of the drills and theory including chi sao taught in class do not work as well as you like to think. The guys who tried to fight with "style" got faces kicked in.

Why did this guy win? Because he was a tiger....trained and fought full contact all of the time and he could take pain.

I saw another guy get his arm broken by a roundhouse kick....what drill or theory would have stopped that?

75% of the drills and other things different styles do is ornamental. I dont have a problem with that...because it is a martial "art" but you have to know where you stand when it comes to combat.

Full contact is an eye opener.
Full Contact VS other systems, even more so.
Nothing wrong with drills, as long as they are based on what happens in full contact situations.

[ironfenix]

EarthDragon, You know any good restaurants? Heck if the food tastes good, who cares where the crap they got the recipe from. My wife downloaded some recipes from the O.G. I KNOW my wife is not italian. Shoot its safe to say the owners of Darden Rest. (owners of OG , red lobster, pfchangs, etc.) are not Italian. It probably isn't real italian food, but I still eat it.
Exit, if the training is good take it, if the training is not good, take it to go. Broken bones have a lot to do with how hard the other guy is kicking man. What's the defense? poke em in the darn eye and get out of there. full contact is awesome. But to make it real, you need to add weapons. At least that's what I say. Let it go and find another school. At least I stopped listening to politics a long time ago.

[notanexit]

I tried to give you some good information but you fail to understand.
Just as you fail to understand me.

Crying, whining and talking bad about my previous instructors would have only retarded my training and shown my lack of character.
I'm telling the truth about him.How is that whining?What about his lack of character?Lying about being a disciple,adding stuff to a curriculum from "unknown" sources(videos,internet) and passing it off as his own.That's okay in your character book?

At least your old teacher had enough ambition to go out...get information and make up a style. It seems you lack the ambition to move on and better yourself as a martial artist.
That's not ambition.Its dishonest,sneaky, and underhanded.If I was talking about anyone else you wouldn't care.But since I'm speaking about your leader,you feel that you must defend him.He's a big boy,let him fight his own battles.Besides, he has an altered letter proving he is legit:rolleyes:.By the way,if you look at the marked out names,they are the names of former students who also want nothing to do with him.He "left" that part out for some reason.



Now from your analogy the resturant stole recipes and claimed to be authentic...OK if they stole the recipes and I liked the food?
yes I would eat there. I dont care how they got thier food ideas the point is do I like them?
I would'nt care if i sat down and the ordered from the place aross the street if i liked the atmosphere and service.I see that honesty does not matter to you.

the word bitter is prevailant in every single one of your posts, thats why i said bitter.
My God man MOVE ON! stop poluting every thread with what happned to you, you sound like a highschool girl whos boy friend cheated on her,
take what you learned and practice it or learn form someone else and practice that, but geez, get over it. you sound pathetic[/QUOTE]I just looked at your post on the 8-step judgement thread.You stated that you and other senior students left.You also stated that your old teacher has a"new crew of brainwashed newbies to carry on the legacy."Sounds like you and I have had a similar experience.It does not seem like you're "moving on" or "letting go".You bash your old teacher and no problem,I bash mine ,you tell me to "let it go".I would hate to call you a hippocrate:).Back on subject,chi sao or sticky hands is a fun drill,but there are other things that can make you a better fighter.Most of the time it starts slow but when somene is getting the better of the other person,it becomes a slap fest.At that point you are no longer learning how to listen or stick.It almost becomes a fight.Anyone else has this problem?

[Luk Hop]

"Back on subject,chi sao or sticky hands is a fun drill,but there are other things that can make you a better fighter.Most of the time it starts slow but when somene is getting the better of the other person,it becomes a slap fest.At that point you are no longer learning how to listen or stick.It almost becomes a fight.Anyone else has this problem?"

Not much sticking taking place there. I have little to no recollection of instruction concerning the development of sticking and listening skills. As far as it becoming a slap fest, yes. Wasn't that the usual culmination of sticking at the school? It is kind of hard to learn sticky hands much less how to teach it by attending some seminars and what not. The curriculum, when I was there, consisted predominately of longfist forms and some derivative drills. Very little yielding, if any. I am sure that the curriculum evolved after I left as he continued to pick up new sets from videos, books, and other people.

To much ego and politics there. When I left and began studying elsewhere I learned how much I should have learned and then much much more.


Notanexit

Open your own school.

[mantid1]

"I'm speaking about your leader,you feel that you must defend him.He's a big boy,let him fight his own battles."

Ok...if you think he is my leader...ill play along. I think he is one of the best instructors in the states. I would put him against ANYONE in a full cantact fight. His knowledge of praying mantis is unbelievable....I cant believe he didnt teach you any of that. I do remember you had a little lovers quarrel with him...is that why you are upset?

Oh yeah.....his Chi Sao was AWESOME!!!!!!!!

Can you remind me of who this guy is and where I trained with this him?

There you go....you made me waste my five minutes a day I allow myself on the net:mad:

[Three Harmonies]

I believe NAE is referring to Steve Cottrell.
And I also believe that Mantid is not a student of Steve's!

[mantid1]

oh.....he is upset with Mr. Cottrell.

If I knew it was Mr. Cottrell I would not have made my last post.......I was feeding exit since he assumed I trained with the person he was upset with. NO offense intended to the Cottrell camp.

I would train with Mr. Cottrell when it comes to traditional CMA.....no doubt about it. If exit was looking for something different than the way traditional CMA is taught...then that is his problem. Personal problems are personal...and should be left that way.

The ironic thing is Mr. Cottrell would probably be one of the best people to comment on this post about Chi Sao in Mantis.

[Three Harmonies]

Well.... there is a lot more to the story than what people are sharing. I see both ends, and ultimately it is too bad for all parties involved.
Unfortunately (just like any close relationship) when one person is not honest and upfront with another it leads to hurt feelings, and lost time and money.
In an ideal world everyone would be honest, hardworking, responsible people who would live by their word and their balls (after all, that is all we as men, have!)!

Cheers
Jake

[old8step]

Why your beginner students?Why not you?I'll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you're so great:rolleyes:) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu "mystique" you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the "sifu".

Maybe i'm behind becaust i dont' mantis anymore but crossing hands does that mean sparring or fighting. and are you saying that peopel would show up to your school with challenges? Also isnt that the way it should be the student fighting? I mean most schools i am at the trainer is not a current fighter but he teaches the technique so his students can use it.

[EarthDragon]

touching hands, crossing hands is just a term for challenging someone usually its means to test thier skill, as in a fight,not sparring, its not just in mantis as you asked old8step.

And YES you are corrrect it is the lowest level student who would take the challenge not the sifu for various reasons , some of which I posted on the first page.

[old8step]

touching hands, crossing hands is just a term for challenging someone usually its means to test thier skill, as in a fight,not sparring, its not just in mantis as you asked old8step.

And YES you are corrrect it is the lowest level student who would take the challenge not the sifu for various reasons , some of which I posted on the first page.



Ok understood. i was a little confused as the poster i quoted also stated his instructor was scared to cross hands with him and Most camps I am at the fighters woudl never cross hands with the trainer but that doesn't mean the trainer is any less good.

[Tainan Mantis]

You two 8 Step guys heard of Wei fighting students on day 1?

I have heard this from people who there, back in 70's.

Many people came to see him and he would fight them before he taught them.

Not all, just those with already many years of training.

My shifu in Taiwan same thing with me. Cross hands in the temple.
Other students who came to him with experience also had the same experience.

I think that if the teacher likes to fight and someones is experienced, they will fight themselves.

[Three Harmonies]

I would never train with a teacher (exception being if they are ancient) that did not spar with his students. Something wrong with that IMO. Unfortunately 95% of the CMA world falls into this problem!
I have had several teachers who would not touch hands with students for various reasons. Overwhelming majority talked a big talk, but could not walk for ****! One of my biggest gripes with CMA!
To this day Hu Laoshi touches hands with me EVERY time I see him! He is 60+ years old, and over 100#'s smaller than me! No excuse not to touch hands with students!
My attitude stands with BJJ. I tried several schools in the area and noticed that not only did the head instructor often not teach the basic classes, but purple and brown belts claimed they never rolled with him:eek: ABSURD!!!!!! Apparently they were comfortable taking peoples money just because they were Brazilian! My instructor rolls with me every class!

Just my 2 cents,
Jake

[Michael Dasargo]

-Tournement Judo
-Push Hands
-Tournament Jiu-Jitsu
-Sticky Hands

...are all isolation drills designed to put a specific set of skills under the microscope and are not meant to reflect the entirety of combat.

A fight will look like a fight, and the trained eye will be able to identify the moments where the isolation drills paid off.

M.Dasargo

[old8step]

I would never train with a teacher (exception being if they are ancient) that did not spar with his students. Something wrong with that IMO. Unfortunately 95% of the CMA world falls into this problem!
I have had several teachers who would not touch hands with students for various reasons. Overwhelming majority talked a big talk, but could not walk for ****! One of my biggest gripes with CMA!
To this day Hu Laoshi touches hands with me EVERY time I see him! He is 60+ years old, and over 100#'s smaller than me! No excuse not to touch hands with students!
My attitude stands with BJJ. I tried several schools in the area and noticed that not only did the head instructor often not teach the basic classes, but purple and brown belts claimed they never rolled with him:eek: ABSURD!!!!!! Apparently they were comfortable taking peoples money just because they were Brazilian! My instructor rolls with me every class!

Just my 2 cents,
Jake


Sorry to hear that Jake I've never been at a BJJ school. where the instructior did not roll or at least teach the beginners if anything they were more attentive to the beginners. Who are these instructors out of curiosity. I know every Gracie Academy i've gone to the head instructor would be happy to show moves etc they might not full on roll with a white or blue belt because it would be useless but they would teach themselves. same holds true at BJ's academy and the Inoue's in Hawaii. I've been to Charles, Ralphs, Cesars and Relsons' and these are some of the top Gracies and they are all willing to teach kids to beginners to their top students.

[Three Harmonies]

Well I am not going to get into the "Gracie vs ....." thing. But there are several "Gracie" schools here where that is not the truth! They do not even roll with their senior students.
I also do not agree that rolling with a white or blue belt is "useless." How so? "Useless" for whom??

Mike -
Dead on!

Jake

[EarthDragon]

I dont think anyone is saying that the teacher should'nt touch hands with thier students... the discussion was to touch hands with a guy that walks in off the street. This is a no no

Yes Tainan, I hear Master Wei loved to slap people around who thought they knew something. But we cannot compare the old days in the park in Taipei, to today in the states... too many ego's and lawsuits to worry about.

Personally I learned Go Ju from my sensei who literally beat the crap out of me every class, the school of hard knocks method.
Most students quit becuse of it.
While you can learn this way there is also a happy medium and students can learn without being in pain, but if you can beat your teacher then its time to move on... and techniqally if the teacher has taught correctly and without selfishness his students should be better than him eventually.....

[mantid1]

What if the instructor does a great job at teaching his students...and they become better? Should the instructor continue to fight and lose in front of his students time after time? What would that prove? Why shouldnt the students kick the teacher out and follow the student who defeats the rest? If you allow the teacher whos time has passed to stay....do you make him take all challenges from the younger stronger challengers? Do you stand back an let him get killed? Or...step up and take the challenge for him...because you respect him for who he was and is at present?

Back to my earlier point...if you cant train someone who is younger and stronger than you to become proficient....in a short tim...well.. something is wrong.

Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.

It must be more of a "light sparring".....?

Three harmonies, I would think you should be able to handle yourself fairly well against a 60 year old teacher who weighs 100lbs less.....that is if you were going for real. I know I would put my money on you every time. Im 6ft 2in and I would think twice about going head to head with you.

I have nothing but respect for your teacher and mean nothing negative by the previous statement. I am sure he is a great teacher and an honorable person. But, size and strength does come into play at some point.

I would appreciate it if someone would clear up exactly how you touch hands with students and challengers.

[EarthDragon]

mantid


What if the instructor does a great job at teaching his students...and they become better?
then they branch off and teach others or open thier own schools and continue the cycle.

Why shouldnt the students kick the teacher out and follow the student who defeats the rest?
its called respect.

remeber the show jung fu? when you can snatch the pebble out of master po's hand its time to leave and venture on your own... OK cheesy anaolgy but true none the less


Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.
it is.............. but that depens on the teacher, you can have your arse handed to you without being hurt at all, or you can walk away with contusions and a broken bone.

Three harmonies, I would think you should be able to handle yourself fairly well against a 60 year old teacher who weighs 100lbs less.....that is if you were going for real. I know I would put my money on you every time. Im 6ft 2in and I would think twice about going head to head with you.

????????????????

I would appreciate it if someone would clear up exactly how you touch hands with students and challengers.

me personally I fight my students all the time and show them you can defeat your opponent without having to hurt them physically and I do it all the time, with them.......... If I fight someone outside of the class room just the opposite. defend myself and quickly end the flight ASAP.............If someonme walked into my school and wanted to fight me, I would decline......

[Three Harmonies]

Mantid, you have to do more than that to upset me;)

Size and strength certainly do factor in. But skill is a great equalizer. Hu will be the first to admit to you that he would not stand and trade strikes with me! Tim has said the same thing to me. But both of them have much, much more skill than I do. For now they trump me pretty much all the time. I get the occasional throw or strike in though;)

[notanexit]

"Back on subject,chi sao or sticky hands is a fun drill,but there are other things that can make you a better fighter.Most of the time it starts slow but when somene is getting the better of the other person,it becomes a slap fest.At that point you are no longer learning how to listen or stick.It almost becomes a fight.Anyone else has this problem?"


Not much sticking taking place there. I have little to no recollection of instruction concerning the development of sticking and listening skills. As far as it becoming a slap fest, yes. Wasn't that the usual culmination of sticking at the school? It is kind of hard to learn sticky hands much less how to teach it by attending some seminars and what not. The curriculum, when I was there, consisted predominately of longfist forms and some derivative drills. Very little yielding, if any. I am sure that the curriculum evolved after I left as he continued to pick up new sets from videos, books, and other people.Correct.I was never really taught to do sticky hands.I learned by practicing with other students and getting hit over and over.The curriculum didn't really evolve.Just more stuff piled on in order to have more tests and sashes(Mo'Money,Mo'Money).Also,it makes that final test and altered letter further away.


To much ego and politics there. When I left and began studying elsewhere I learned how much I should have learned and then much much more.
Glad that you didn't get brainwashed and stay there too long like I did.


Notanexit

Open your own school.
Not a bad idea.If the disciple can send a taji student to dallas to teach mantis:confused:,then I can teach mantis and taji.But honestly I would just teach mantis.I couldn't live with myself teaching the same thing and telling people that they are doing something different.

Maybe i'm behind becaust i dont' mantis anymore but crossing hands does that mean sparring or fighting. and are you saying that peopel would show up to your school with challenges?From my experience,sticky hands is a friendly exchange between two people.Its not meant as a challenge or fight.Just a test of listening skills.

[
QUOTE=Three Harmonies;917791]I would never train with a teacher (exception being if they are ancient) that did not spar with his students. Something wrong with that IMO. Unfortunately 95% of the CMA world falls into this problem!Because 95% of sifus have a "I'm invincible" attitude and cannot allow their students to see them as less than that.


To this day Hu Laoshi touches hands with me EVERY time I see him! He is 60+ years old, and over 100#'s smaller than me! No excuse not to touch hands with students! I agree,and you are very fortunate to have such a teacher.
My attitude stands with BJJ. I tried several schools in the area and noticed that not only did the head instructor often not teach the basic classes, but purple and brown belts claimed they never rolled with him:eek: ABSURD!!!!!! Apparently they were comfortable taking peoples money just because they were Brazilian! My instructor rolls with me every class!
If they are not careful,bjj will end up like cma.Producing a lot of cash,but not producing quality students





Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.

It must be more of a "light sparring".....?
You would get a bloody lip here or there.But like I said before,it would start off slow.But then someone would slip through a block and hit the other guy(not maliciuosly)Then instead of trying to stick or listen to the other guys movement,he would just get even by hitting him back.Now you have slap fest and no one benefits.One senior student(a good friend of mine)had long arms and really good at sticking.Naturally, students had problems getting through his guard.At one point I had junior mantis students and taji people complaining to me about how he wouldn't "let" them "win"(see a pattern?)





NO offense intended to the Cottrell camp.I wish very much to offend him and his camp.

I would train with Mr. Cottrell when it comes to traditional CMA.....no doubt about it.
I wouldn't call him traditional.I would say its more of a hybrid system of various martial arts too many to list.He hides it by doing traditional forms.About my previous statement.The altered letter disciple has many zombies on this forum who attack me.I assumed you were a part of this.So I will apologize and remove you from the zombie list:).Back on subject.How has sticking and listening helped you in a fight or sparring match?

[EarthDragon]

notanexit,
you posted this.......

You would get a bloody lip here or there.But like I said before,it would start off slow.But then someone would slip through a block and hit the other guy(not maliciuosly)Then instead of trying to stick or listen to the other guys movement,he would just get even by hitting him back.Now you have slap fest and no one benefits.One senior student(a good friend of mine)had long arms and really good at sticking.Naturally, students had problems getting through his guard.At one point I had junior mantis students and taji people complaining to me about how he wouldn't "let" them "win"(see a pattern?)

in response to this post by old8step

Quote:
Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.

It must be more of a "light sparring".....?

Your confusing chi sao, sticky hand excersize with crossing hands.. a term used when fighting with a fellow Martial artist.

May I ask how many years you studied with Steve? or MA in general?

[ironfenix]

there is push hands, sticky hands, and crossing hands. The first two are training drills in my opinion. The 3rd is anything goes. I can tell you personally Chen Style push hands helps with your stand up grappling and not getting thrown.

[old8step]

Well I am not going to get into the "Gracie vs ....." thing. But there are several "Gracie" schools here where that is not the truth! They do not even roll with their senior students.
I also do not agree that rolling with a white or blue belt is "useless." How so? "Useless" for whom??

Mike -
Dead on!

Jake

When I said useless I mean full on rolling If you take a top black belt brown belt etc and put them in against a white belt or blue belt at full speed most times the white or blue belt is going to get tapped very quickly and not really learn as much that's what i meant as useless. Now rolling with a black belt or instructor where the instructor is defending etc while the lower rank goes his best that is a different story. It's too bad you have been to some schools like that and I agree with you I would not train there.

[mantid1]

Here I go...spending my five minutes a day net time on this forum.

Three, I appreciate the respect you show for your teacher...but I still think full out combat....you should be the victor. He is much older and smaller but can still defeat you easily. So, why would you spend time training in BJJ and other similar styles? If the BJJ cannot trump the six harmony stuff.....why do it? I think that him being able to beat you at this age would be reason enough to train ONLY in his style.....right? Either you are getting bad information from other teachers.....or you are showing total respect for your teacher. I believe it is the latter and respect you for that.


Earth, I understand about the respect thing...I was trying to make that point.

You say the better student should go out and start their own school....but what if they dont want to? You kick them out because they are better?

If I am sparring a student who has trained hard for more than 18 months....and can still easily defeat him.....I would think I am doing something dreadfully wrong. If he has potential and gets fight time...there is no reason a student shouldnt be very good in that time frame. If I were fighting an out of shape...doped up moron who has only trained a month or so...well, yeah that would be different.

[EarthDragon]

mantid1,

Earth, I understand about the respect thing...I was trying to make that point.
understood

You say the better student should go out and start their own school....but what if they dont want to? You kick them out because they are better?

Ther is more to MA then fighting. I have a student who has been with me for 12 years. I am now teaching him internally, qigong , tuina, qigong, herbology, buddhism........
By the time you learn to be a great fighter the appeal to fight becomes barbaric for some that is........ others take that time to prove something only to themselves..............

[Three Harmonies]

I train BJJ because their is no ground work in CMA.
"Full out..." perhaps. His throwing is better than mine. Sure if I hit him I would most likely knock the **** out of him. But we go pretty hard. Everytime I get a bit faster or strike harder, he ups the anty. Pretty amazing. Same with Tim. He is near 50, but can school most any young dude out there.


Old -
Well.... there are many different approaches to rolling. Personally I learn regardless of whether or not I get crushed by a black belt, or I crush a white belt. I have tapped my instructor once. He taps me an average of 4-5 times in a five minute roll. A bit more lately since he is getting ready to compete.
So I guess we agree to disagree on this one;)

Cheers
Jake

[Three Harmonies]

Mantid
Re-reading your post I must have misunderstood....
On the ground, yes, I can dominate Hu. But he knows noting on the ground.

Jake

[old8step]

I
Old -
Well.... there are many different approaches to rolling. Personally I learn regardless of whether or not I get crushed by a black belt, or I crush a white belt. I have tapped my instructor once. He taps me an average of 4-5 times in a five minute roll. A bit more lately since he is getting ready to compete.
So I guess we agree to disagree on this one;)

Cheers
Jake

Yep everone is different and if it works for you than that's the way you should train. I'm glad you found a place that works for you that is the most important at the end of the day