Shaolin Ape-Monkey Fist

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi;

Does anyone have any factual (people, places, and things) information about Shaolin Yuan-Huo Quan?

it's practiced in the Dengfeng region (I learned it long ago), and it is a short set

Here's what I know so far, if anyone can please add to it, that would be great, thanks!

The Ape-Monkey fist (Shaolin Yuan-Hou 猿猴 Quan; also known as Shaolin Hou Quan) has a long history at Shaolin as well. Most of the attacks are aimed at the knees, groin area, throat, or eyes of the opponent and hand strikes are normally either open handed slaps or clawing with a semi-closed fist called the monkey claw. Besides the palm, it does use a clenched fist knuckle punch. But, even though the name of the routine is Ape-Monkey Fist, there is not a lot of funny monkey like movements as seen in modern Monkey Boxing routines, although today Shaolin has some of these theatrical monkey sets. (The theatrical Monkey boxing that is often seen in demonstrations and competitions today traces back to the Emei region in Sichuan, where it was taught by the famous "Monkey King" Xiao Yingpeng and others.)

Yuan-Hou Quan movements instead seem to be related to the Wen County Henan martial arts, such as the Hong Quan / Taizhu Chang Quan, Tongbei Quan, Jingang Quan, etc., which also mean that they are similar to the movements of Rou Quan and Chen Taiji Quan as well. The first section of this generally short set is very similar to the first section of Taizhu Chang Quan 32 Postures, Rou Quan 36 Postures, Taiji Yi Lu, and other related routines that have basically the same movements in their first section as these sets. The Yuan-Hou set also has a posture called Single Whip occurring in the same point of the sequence as in these other sets; also it performs a "Jingang Pounds Mortar" movement named "Ya Shou Su Shen - Press down hand and shrink body".

The question is which came first? It was mentioned in General Qi Jiguang’s Ming dynasty era book, and he places it as part of the Taizhu Chang Quan related material of 6 Step Boxing, Glorious (Hua) Boxing, etc. This set has also always been considered one of the routines that Zhao Kuangyin practiced as part of his family style (perhaps because of General Qi’s book?). Also, this set is considered very old, from pre-Song dynasty times. This is one of the rarest sets in Shaolin Quan, where is not even practiced anymore, but it can be found in the Dengfeng area, where (Zhao Kuangyin’s) Lao Hong Quan and Rou Quan 36 Postures sets are practiced.

[ginosifu]

Sal,
I do not have any info but If you get any I would be interested in this set. My Sifu John Ervin says he has some old white ape stuff but it seems to be related to the tong bei system. Let me know what you find out.

ginosifu@shaolininstitute.com

Thanks
Gino

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,
I do not have any info but If you get any I would be interested in this set. My Sifu John Ervin says he has some old white ape stuff but it seems to be related to the tong bei system. Let me know what you find out.

ginosifu@shaolininstitute.com

Thanks
Gino

I can tell you now if you do this set you will love it.

There's something amazing about it, I can't pin point why.

It makes all the other stuff like Hong Quan, Taizhu Chang Quan, Chen Taiji, Rou Quan, all make sense.
I feel like it is some missing piece to a grand puzzle.

I just spend the last 3 weeks writing a 100+ page paper on this puzzle!

[SharkyT]

Hey Gino,
White ape refers to Tongbei . It is Shi style of tongbei , named Baiyuan Tongbei. It is similar to piqua chuan, I think it is related or in the piqua family.

[r.(shaolin)]

Yes there are Hou Quan sets in the Shaolin I practice as well. Our oral tradition say that these were developed at Shaolin by its monks. During the Song dynasty, a golden monkey often came to Shaolin Monastery to get food. Encouraged by the abbot, the little monks befriended the animal.

These monkey imitation sets were taught mainly to young monks at Shaolin.
In our lineage we have 6 sets (they are not called Hou Quan, but rather Yuan Hou -猿猴).
The second longer hand set is called:
小小猿猴 Yuan Hou
and three staff sets:
猴子棍 and 五花猴棍

r.
ps
The first hand set is short, the other is long, all are done in a typical Shaolin 'roads' (left to right) fashion. In our case the movements do resemble the actions of the monkeys.
However, having said this, when my treacher first saw the modern 'wushu' monkey when the Bejing wushu team first came to New York in the late '70's(early 1980??), his comments where, "Their monkey looks like monkey form but they have no fighting application." Basically traditional Shaolin monkey sets look like monkey actions but have obvious fighting applications.
In our monkey sets as well there is a number of "- Press down hand and shrink body" movements not unlike what Shi Dejian does in some of his sets.
The legends about our sets suggest that monkey sets have been at Shaolin for a long time and says, " In every dynasty some people learned this style resulting in many sets and names for these techniques." Our tradition says, like Hong Quan Quan, there sets were introduced to Shaolin during the Song period.

[SharkyT]

r. Shaolin,
Great answer. I didnt know Shi Dijen was doing Shaolin monkey from what I have seen in video clip. He is amazing

[Royal Dragon]

Is this the same set you sent me the charts for?

Besides that chart, are there any other sources for it?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Is this the same set you sent me the charts for?

Besides that chart, are there any other sources for it?

Yes, the same set. I am looking for other sources.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yes there are Hou Quan sets in the Shaolin I practice as well. Our oral tradition say that these were developed at Shaolin. During the Song dynasty, a golden monkey often came to Shaolin Monastery to get food. Encouraged by the abbot, the little monks befriended the animal.

These monkey imitation sets were taught to the young monks at Shaolin
In our lineage we have 4 sets these sets, not called Hou Quan, but rather Yuan Hou:
Two hand sets
小猿猴 Yuan Hou (lian quan jiao)
and two staff sets:
猴子棍 and 五花猴棍

r.
ps
The first hand set is short, the other is long, all are done in a typical Shaolin 'roads' (left to right) fashion. In our case the movements do resemble the actions of the monkeys.
However, having said this, when my treacher first saw the modern 'wushu' monkey when the Bejing wushu team first came to New York in the late '70's(early 1980??), his comments where, "Their monkey looks like monkey form but they have no fighting application." Basically traditional Shaolin monkey sets look like monkey actions but have obvious fighting applications.
In your monkey sets as well there is a number of "- Press down hand and shrink body" movements not unlike what Shi Dejian does in some of his sets.
The legends about our sets suggest that monkey sets have been at Shaolin for a long time and says, " In every dynasty some people learned this style resulting in many sets and names for these techniques." Our tradition says, like Hong Quan Quan, there sets were introduced to Shaolin during the Song period.

I think that is the set I am talking about, yes.
It is monkey like, but no where near as silly as modern monkey sets are done.
It is a lot like Hong Quan sets, there are indeed in this set, "press down hand and shrink body" postures.
Well ANY kind of factual information anyone can provide about this set, let me know thanks!

Any vidoes?

The set is only 26 postures long.

[r.(shaolin)]

One thing I would add, the only Shaolin animal imitation method that includes facial expressions is the monkey sets. If you are interested in seeing this let me know.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

One thing I would add, the only Shaolin animal imitation method that includes facial expressions is the monkey sets. If you are interested in seeing this let me know.
r.

Well, I would like to see if it is the set I am talking about, at least.

[r.(shaolin)]

Quote:
Originally Posted by r.(shaolin) View Post
One thing I would add, the only Shaolin animal imitation method that includes facial expressions is the monkey sets. If you are interested in seeing this let me know.
r.


Well, I would like to see if it is the set I am talking about, at least.

Here is a posture from one of the bare hand sets and one from a staff set (http://www.neonghosts.com/monkey.html)
The opening of the eyes and mouth position have to do with vison and breath control.
Under combat stress the heart-rate can spin out of control and there is a tendency for vision loss and tunnel vision.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here is a posture from one of the bare hand sets and one from a staff set (http://www.neonghosts.com/monkey.html)
The opening of the eyes and mouth position have to do with vison and breath control.
Under combat stress the heart-rate can spin out of control and there is a tendency for vision loss and tunnel vision.
r.

yes, the set i am thinking of has those postures and that special Ren Shou, "acknowledge hands" thing.

[mickey]

Sal,

r. (shaolin) has taken the time to show his, why not take the time to show yours? There is always that chance that someone else out there just might have that form you are talking about, that you claim to have. What you are doing is like trying to catch an apple with a Dixie cup.


mickey

[LFJ]

I think that is the set I am talking about, yes.
It is monkey like, but no where near as silly as modern monkey sets are done.
It is a lot like Hong Quan sets, there are indeed in this set, "press down hand and shrink body" postures.
Well ANY kind of factual information anyone can provide about this set, let me know thanks!

Any vidoes?

The set is only 26 postures long.

i know of a shaolin monkey set that is 26 postures long. the first movement is called yuánhóu shùshēn (猿猴束身). not so theatrical, obvious applications, several different kicks, and ends in the zuòshān (座山) posture. there is a book published on it, but doesnt have any such information about it.

[tattooedmonk]

How do I learn/ get copy of these sets??

[Sal Canzonieri]

How do I learn/ get copy of these sets??

I can teach the Shaolin Ape-Monkey set, I know it very well, and have taught it in my classes here in NJ.

I'm available for seminars, I give all the applications, and show how the movements are related to those in Taiji Quan and other stuff.

[Sal Canzonieri]

i know of a shaolin monkey set that is 26 postures long. the first movement is called yuánhóu shùshēn (猿猴束身). not so theatrical, obvious applications, several different kicks, and ends in the zuòshān (座山) posture. there is a book published on it, but doesnt have any such information about it.

Hmm, Shi de qian before he died gave me a copy of it in a book of his.

What book are you referring to? Do you have an ISBN number?

thanks!

[tattooedmonk]

I can teach the Shaolin Ape-Monkey set, I know it very well, and have taught it in my classes here in NJ.

I'm available for seminars, I give all the applications, and show how the movements are related to those in Taiji Quan and other stuff.Hey Sal , Thanks . I wish I lived closer. ( in calif) If I am ever out your way or get enough students to have a seminar I will definately hit you up. I would like to add that I have been rereading all of your articles ( on your site and the mags I kept over the years ) and I must say you are a wealth of information and highly knowledgable in CMA . Thanks for all that you do to promote what we do and keep ing it real. TTM

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal , Thanks . I wish I lived closer. ( in calif) If I am ever out your way or get enough students to have a seminar I will definately hit you up. I would like to add that I have been rereading all of your articles ( on your site and the mags I kept over the years ) and I must say you are a wealth of information and highly knowledgable in CMA . Thanks for all that you do to promote what we do and keep ing it real. TTM

Thanks.

I am doing a seminar this weekend in Valencia, Spain.
Teaching the Luohan 13 Gong material, both the qi gong set and the martial art version of the set.
I was there a year ago and taught the 6 Harmony Gong and the Chan Yuan Gong sets.

[LFJ]

Hmm, Shi de qian before he died gave me a copy of it in a book of his.

What book are you referring to? Do you have an ISBN number?

thanks!

ISBN：7-5054-0640-X

published in '99, the demonstrator is diao shanduo (shi yongzhi).

you can get the pdf file here: http://www.qupan.com/down/sbl5158_1425860.html

click the button with the green arrow for a normal download. only takes a minute.

[tattooedmonk]

It didnt work ......

[LFJ]

uh, i just did it again. worked for me.

[tattooedmonk]

uh, i just did it again. worked for me. I downloaded it but will not open,What are you opening it with?

[LFJ]

its a .pdf, so i just opened it with abode. works fine.

[tattooedmonk]

It keeps saying broken or fragmented link :(:confused:

[Yao Sing]

I downloaded the .pdf file and will email it to anyone that asks.

Edit: Ok, here's what I did for you guys. I dropped it to a server I manage so you can download it at http://www.1cns.net/Yuan-Huo-Quan.pdf.

Or I will email if you send me your email address.

[Yao Sing]

The program to read the file is Adobe's Acrobat Reader and can be downloaded here (http://get.adobe.com/reader/). Each version gets bigger and bigger so you might want to try an alternate reader.

This program here (http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/reader/) will also open the file for reading.

Someone referred to Taiji when speaking of this set. Is it played like a TJ form, slowly?

I don't read Chinese so any info on how to play the set would help me to understand and learn it from the file.

[Yao Sing]

If it's jumping around like a monkey I'm not interested (and too old and out of shape) but if it's fighting moves I'll make the effort to learn.

More than half of the file is warm up moves then it shows the 26 postures. Some of it looks a little familiar.

Sal, where are you in Jersey. Haven't been back there in years but I'm about due for a family visit soon.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I downloaded the .pdf file and will email it to anyone that asks.

Edit: Ok, here's what I did for you guys. I dropped it to a server I manage so you can download it at http://www.1cns.net/Yuan-Huo-Quan.pdf.

Or I will email if you send me your email address.

I see it, no it is not that one. That's the Shaolin Monkey Boxing set.
Not the same at all.
But, thanks anyways!

[Sal Canzonieri]

If it's jumping around like a monkey I'm not interested (and too old and out of shape) but if it's fighting moves I'll make the effort to learn.

More than half of the file is warm up moves then it shows the 26 postures. Some of it looks a little familiar.

Sal, where are you in Jersey. Haven't been back there in years but I'm about due for a family visit soon.

I am in the Morristown area, Morris County.
Starting in the late summer, early fall I will be teaching for the town where I live at one of the recreation centers.

[Yao Sing]

My family is in Ocean County on the coast. Maybe I should plan an end of summer trip. I'll let you you if I head up that way.

[Baqualin]

Hey Yao,
Your PM box is full...wouldn't let me send anything.
BQ

[Yao Sing]

Fixed it.

Hey Sal, you do research so I was wondering your take on the Karate jow question in the SD thread. Don't know if you followed it but it's my understanding that the Chinese withheld knowledge of jow from the Japanese so traditionally they don't use any for their hand conditioning.

Do you have anything concerning this issue?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Fixed it.

Hey Sal, you do research so I was wondering your take on the Karate jow question in the SD thread. Don't know if you followed it but it's my understanding that the Chinese withheld knowledge of jow from the Japanese so traditionally they don't use any for their hand conditioning.

Do you have anything concerning this issue?

Hmm, interesting, but I never pursued any research in that direction.
I've always researched the transmission of teaching material from one style to another.

One thing to look into is the availability of the herbs necessary to make jow.
Maybe in Japan there is not the same access to certain herbs to make the jow preparation.

Also, during the 1500s, there are records showing that the Japanese were studying at Shaolin and preserved many traditional things from there that are no longer done there now (this is covered in Shahar's The Shaolin Monastery book).
The medicinal aspect was part of the Shaolin tradition of that time period.
Perhaps it did go to Japan, but it was there that it eventually was lost over time.
This would be the Shorinjikempo line, they would be where you would look.

The Karate line is from Okinawa and that ultimately comes from the southern chinese traditions of 5 Ancestors style.
One would have to compare the Southern 5 Ancestor's style and their use of herbal jow preparations or not and compare / contrast to Okinawan traditions and Japanese Karate and Shorinjikempo traditions.

[Yao Sing]

Thanks for the info. It gives me a direction to look.

[LFJ]

here's a video with a very short clip of a combative monkey boxing set, starting at 0:54.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma0RvVBB4rg&feature=channel_page

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's a video with a very short clip of a combative monkey boxing set, starting at 0:54.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma0RvVBB4rg&feature=channel_page

Cool, liked that.
But still not the Shaolin Ape-monkey set I am looking for a video of.

[LFJ]

have you seen this yuanhougun set? its pretty neat.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ0OTg1ODg=.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

have you seen this yuanhougun set? its pretty neat.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ0OTg1ODg=.html

Yep, saw it, thanks.
Shaanxi area is famous for their Monkey Staff and Stick sets.

[TenTigers]

Sal, you mentioned Shorinjikempo. I recall reading that the founder was Doshin So, who visited the Shaolin Temple, and upon seeing the frescos on the wall of the Shaolin Monks practicing, he was inspired to create Shorinji Kempo. This was all in the twentieth century, so I would be somewhat skeptical on its authenticity in regards to a real connection to Shaolin.

[GeneChing]

...I had made a comment on the universality of liniments on the Muay Thai tiedajiu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=959081&postcount=14) thread.

I've always been at odds with westerners truncating the term ditdajow to jow. Jow on it's own means 'wine'.

[TenTigers]

my Chinese teachers have always used the term, "Jow" for dit da jow.
What bothers me is hearing "westerners" calling it,"dit."
That makes me cringe.
I also cringe when I here people call WCK 'The Chun," refer to Gung-Fu as "the Fu,"etc.

[GeneChing]

I've heard Chinese refer to it as jow too, so perhaps I was too harsh on Westerners. And I totally agree with you on dit and 'the chun.' I've never heard someone say 'the chun'. That's really funny.

But I like fu as a suffix. Web fu, troll fu, nacho fu, I use that a lot. ;)

[LFJ]

Even today some versions of the set still have a slight monkey feel, i.e the first move xu bu is done with monkey paws in some versions. Also when you turn to the side with a block after xie xing some versions shade the eyes like in a monkey form. The current version as was practiced by Xiu Xi and now by Deyang has no monkey reference.


not actually true.

master deyang's version from ven. suxi begins with the same xubu monkey claw technique, and the block after xiexing is done the way master yongwen did it in the video you linked to. :) definitely the same amount of "monkey feel".

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, you mentioned Shorinjikempo. I recall reading that the founder was Doshin So, who visited the Shaolin Temple, and upon seeing the frescos on the wall of the Shaolin Monks practicing, he was inspired to create Shorinji Kempo. This was all in the twentieth century, so I would be somewhat skeptical on its authenticity in regards to a real connection to Shaolin.

yes, correct that specific person did do that, I meant it in a more general sense, in that there is documented evidence (names, dates, etc.) of people from Japan that had visited Shaolin in previous centuries (Ming and Qing) that brought back Shaolin KF to Japan. I called this material, for lack of a better name, Shorinjikempo, but you are right that is a specific style, while i meant it more as a general way of saying Japanese Shaolin derived KF.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hello There,

I am a Disciple of Shi Yong Wen in Kaifeng. We have 2 monkey sets you may be interested in. I am certain its not the exact one you are looking for, but it should be interesting nevertheless. The set is mainly striking movements with the relaxed monkey hand and the monkey paw. It has a few xiang xing movements, i.e most of the blocks use the 'shading the eyes' movement. Here is a Video link, it appears about 6-7 min in, but i think you will enjoy the whole video.

http://www.56.com/u14/v_MTc2OTUzMDc.html

The set is called 'Da Sheng Xing Zhi' ....I think.... It refers to the great pilgrim, almost certainly a reference to SunWuKong the monkey king. There is an accompanying staff form, also more practical than theatric, also with two sets. My master is now nearly 70, his father was a famous Martial Artist in Kaifeng (shaolin Pai) and in his younger days travelled over china to find good masters. He learned this from an old man in Tianjin who in turn learned it from shaolin when he was young. I am not clear if it is from shaolin temple or from dengfeng county, but it is shaolin pai.

We also have Yuan Hou Bang, but this set has no monkey like moves what so ever, just the name. It should also be noted that the Shaolin Temple Tong Bei Quan (now referred to as 'xiao tongbei') is descended from a monkey like form (tong bei yuan quan). Even today some versions of the set still have a slight monkey feel, i.e the first move xu bu is done with monkey paws in some versions. Also when you turn to the side with a block after xie xing some versions shade the eyes like in a monkey form. The current version as was practiced by Xiu Xi and now by Deyang has no monkey reference. Many forms called Tong Bei are descended from Tong bei yuan quan.

Shi Yong Wen is recovered from a recent illness and is now accepting foreign disciples....He in his time has trained under great masters such as Degen and Wu shan Lin. If anyone is interested in training here please reply to me.

Cool, Kaifeng is famous for having preserved Shaolin sets that are no longer even practiced at Shaolin itself any longer.
I see in that video link a part of the Xin Yi Quan set, which was once called Shaolin Xing Quan (Walking or Traveling Boxing), a set that was derived from Ji Long feng's visits to Shaolin and also related to ancient Tong Bei Quan (developed by Dong Cheng). That set has been written about in a lot of research papers. It has much overlap with Chen Tai Ji Quan. I wrote a bunch about it in my upcoming book.

Well, that monkey set is VERY MUCH like the set I am talking about, I was surprised, it is the first time I have seen anything close to it. I had heard that the one I am looking for a video of was practiced in the Kaifeng area as well as the Dengfeng area.
It'd like to see the Yuan Hou Bang sent then, now I am very curious.

THANKS!

[mawali]

Fixed it.

Hey Sal, you do research so I was wondering your take on the Karate jow question in the SD thread. Don't know if you followed it but it's my understanding that the Chinese withheld knowledge of jow from the Japanese so traditionally they don't use any for their hand conditioning.

Do you have anything concerning this issue?

Yao Sing.

I do not think that the Chinese withheld knowledge but that the Japanese were diligent in taking tools related to their disposition. I was in Okinawa in the late 70's- early 80's and most of Okinawan martial tradition is South China Crane style(s).

An interesting observation is that the samurai sword routine is taken from a (Wudang source- at least where it remains today) and it is interesting how that occurence took place to keep that tradition alive for centuries!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yao Sing.

I do not think that the Chinese withheld knowledge but that the Japanese were diligent in taking tools related to their disposition. I was in Okinawa in the late 70's- early 80's and most of Okinawan martial tradition is South China Crane style(s).

An interesting observation is that the samurai sword routine is taken from a (Wudang source- at least where it remains today) and it is interesting how that occurence took place to keep that tradition alive for centuries!

I haven't seen anything saying that they withheld the information, the recipes for it were out in the open in the various old Shaolin manuals.

[LFJ]

My master does it the same as Suxi and Deyang. Actually they don't start with the monkey paw, they stab with the fingers 'white snake spits venom'.

right, they stab with the fingers and the posture's name is "white snake spits venom". however, the fingers arent completely straight and the hand is not flat like a board as in snake style.

the thumb is tucked under the four fingers which are all slightly curved as if holding/pinching something with the fingertips. this is one of the monkey hand-forms.


In Wu Seng Hou Bei Dui (deyangs school in DengFeng) and in Deyangs videos he does it with straight fingers,

the videos dont teach in much detail and are bare-bones basic commercial versions, but if you look closely, it is done with a type of monkey paw, rather than snake hand. he even turns his hands toward the camera to show the hand-shape. he also talks about the "monkey claw" in the set. :)

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Right, I stand corrected. :)

Never the less there are versions which use a much more exaggerated monkey paw with the wrist fully.... limp and the fingers splayed, thumb forced slightly towards little finger, and they drop the wrists downward as if grasping something rather than shooting foreward.

[Sal Canzonieri]

right, they stab with the fingers and the posture's name is "white snake spits venom". however, the fingers arent completely straight and the hand is not flat like a board as in snake style.

the thumb is tucked under the four fingers which are all slightly curved as if holding/pinching something with the fingertips. this is one of the monkey hand-forms.



the videos dont teach in much detail and are bare-bones basic commercial versions, but if you look closely, it is done with a type of monkey paw, rather than snake hand. he even turns his hands toward the camera to show the hand-shape. he also talks about the "monkey claw" in the set. :)

The hand posture is called Ren Shou, "acknowledgement hands", like two old Chinese ladies greeting each other by touching their knuckles together of their hands, everyone has seen this hand gesture in many old movies and so on.

In application it is a sudden wipe of the opponent's brow that sends him off balance and tipping over to the ground, or else feel a broken or sprained neck if showing any resistance.

[LFJ]

Sal, my friend... I have quite a treat for you!

Finally found it, a complete demonstration of Shaolin Yuanhouquan, performed by Master Cui Xiqi in front of the temple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeU-40062A

None of that theatrical monkey crap here!

[Crosshandz]

Sal, my friend... I have quite a treat for you!

Finally found it, a complete demonstration of Shaolin Yuanhouquan, performed by Master Cui Xiqi in front of the temple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeU-40062A

None of that theatrical monkey crap here!

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/9/2/128964068380649829.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

That was a neat clip. Thanks.

[rett]

Yeah, really nice clip, thanks.

[Xian]

Thank you very much for that.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, my friend... I have quite a treat for you!

Finally found it, a complete demonstration of Shaolin Yuanhouquan, performed by Master Cui Xiqi in front of the temple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeU-40062A

None of that theatrical monkey crap here!

Wow, thanks! Much appreciated!

DISREGARD the following, I was wrong it is the full set! [But, unfortunately, it's not the full version. It is missing the ending section, it stops right when it would have started.]

That other video of mixed Shaolin sets on Youtube that (you?) was pointed out to me last year has an old man doing the full version of the set, he does it real fast, but all the movements are there, EXCEPT the very end.

Do you know which video it was?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does anyone notice the Chen TJQ movements inside of this monkey set?

it has quite a few, done in monkey style, but they are there, almost the whole first section is the beginning of the Chen Yi Lu set, complete with single whip and so on.

[LFJ]

That other video of mixed Shaolin sets on Youtube that (you?) was pointed out to me last year has an old man doing the full version of the set, he does it real fast, but all the movements are there.

Do you know which video it was?

It only had a very short clip of him doing the set. It kind of started and ended in the middle. I haven't seen a full version of the film.

It's at 2:20 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uTGE_IxC2w

[Sal Canzonieri]

It only had a very short clip of him doing the set. It kind of started and ended in the middle. I haven't seen a full version of the film.

It's at 2:20 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uTGE_IxC2w


Well, the secret of the last part is that it does the movements found in Taiji Ruler.

The only place I have seen the whole set performed publicly was in the book 'Shaolin Quan" that shows all the sets done in Deng Feng village by Liu Zhen Hai
This book is also the only place to find all four sets of Lao Hong Quan.
And the only place to find the complete Da Louhan Quan.

I think the book has been reissued now.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Arrrghh! It stops at the same spot that the other stops at!

Well, the secret of the last part is that it does the movements found in Taiji Ruler.

The only place I have seen the whole set performed publicly was in the book 'Shaolin Quan" that shows all the sets done in Deng Feng village by Liu Zhen Hai
This book is also the only place to find all four sets of Lao Hong Quan.
And the only place to find the complete Da Louhan Quan.

I think the book has been reissued now.

Crap. looked at it in slow motion, there is a section missing near the end!

COOL! thanks for posting this great find!
Now if someone can just find a video of the Deng Feng Lao Hong Quan sets. I learned them all (4) but I would love to see a video to compare.

[LFJ]

It took us over 2 years to find these. So I think we've done pretty good. The great thing is Cui Xiqi is still alive (born in 1922) and able to teach still. He's also the one that did this Datongbiquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsE3EpxvIw), which is much more dense in technique than what we usually see.

Here's some other stuff he teaches:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyMTE3NDY4.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

It took us over 2 years to find these. So I think we've done pretty good. The great thing is Cui Xiqi is still alive (born in 1922) and able to teach still. He's also the one that did this Datongbiquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsE3EpxvIw), which is much more dense in technique than what we usually see.

Here's some other stuff he teaches:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyMTE3NDY4.html

That is one of the best and most "old school" Datongbi quan around.

I'm sure he knows the Lao Hong Quan 4 sets!

[Sal Canzonieri]

By the way, Zhu Tian Xi has a new website with loads of rare videos!

And I can't open ANY of them!

[LFJ]

So the one in front of the temple is the full set?

Actually when comparing the two clips, on the shorter clip (wearing black) at about 2:40 he starts doing new movements, and ends up turning around and continuing the set.

It looks like in the full clip (wearing white) at about 0:50 he only does a couple simple moves before finishing. It doesn't have all the extra moves that are in the other clip. It also looks like the other one would have continued more if it hadn't been cut off.

[LFJ]

By the way, Zhu Tian Xi has a new website with loads of rare videos!

And I can't open ANY of them!

What's the website? I'll see if I can't open them...

[Sal Canzonieri]

What's the website? I'll see if I can't open them...

http://www.shaolinzhutianxi.com/

[Sal Canzonieri]

So the one in front of the temple is the full set?

Actually when comparing the two clips, on the shorter clip (wearing black) at about 2:40 he starts doing new movements, and ends up turning around and continuing the set.

It looks like in the full clip (wearing white) at about 0:50 he only does a couple simple moves before finishing. It doesn't have all the extra moves that are in the other clip. It also looks like the other one would have continued more if it hadn't been cut off.

Ahh, such insanity!

Yeah, I see that he was about to start a new section at the end of the black clothes clip.
The white clothes clip, he is doing a salute in the beginning that is not seen in the black clip.
In the white clip he does some of the moves more than once.

[LFJ]

Strange, Zhu Tianxi's website says this about Liuhegong:


少林六合功建立在中医理论的基础，是中国功夫中的内功修炼方法，由达摩嫡传弟子朱天喜（法号释行真）大师所 独创，它汲取了传统武术之精髓，更加结合了现代人的身体状况和体质特征，行真大师通过数十载的演练合揣摩， 拥有数不尽心得体会，把呼吸的节奏、气息的调和都充分的融入到功法的演练中去，真正的实现了动作、意念、呼 吸三者合而为一，为气血贯通创造了一个和谐环境，达到天人合一、延年益寿之效。 少林六合功的动作演练起来刚柔并济，呼吸与动作紧密配合，内修外敛，能够舒筋通络，调和阴阳，养生健身等。 适用于慢 性腰腿疼、慢性心脑血管疾病、偏瘫后遗症等亚健康人群，对心慌胸闷、失眠健忘、烦躁不安、言语不清、手足麻 木有良好的康复作用。

少林六合功共有六式：

第一式 单手推山宣肺气、
第二式 风摆杨柳健脾气（斜推掌）、
第三式 怀中抱月舒肝气、
第四式 降龙伏虎调三焦（伏虎式、单按掌）、
第五式 罗汉托天养心气、
第六式 青龙摆尾益肾气（双按掌）。

The line in blue says; "Originally created by the direct descendant of Bodhidharma, Great Master Zhu Tianxi (Dharma Name Shi Xingzhen)".

I can open his Liuhegong video, which is from his instructional. The others aren't loading.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Strange, Zhu Tianxi's website says this about Liuhegong:



The line in blue says; "Originally created by the direct descendant of Bodhidharma, Great Master Zhu Tianxi (Dharma Name Shi Xingzhen)".

I can open his Liuhegong video, which is from his instructional. The others aren't loading.

That's weird. How is he the direct descendent, ha. He must be thousands of years old then. Must be a typo by the webmaster.

The direct descendent of Damo is who Shaolin always credits their early stuff to.

Yeah, I can't open any of them, they start but don't load. Some Chinese format we don't have?

[Sal Canzonieri]

It took us over 2 years to find these. So I think we've done pretty good. The great thing is Cui Xiqi is still alive (born in 1922) and able to teach still. He's also the one that did this Datongbiquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsE3EpxvIw), which is much more dense in technique than what we usually see.

Here's some other stuff he teaches:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyMTE3NDY4.html

What is the set after the monkey-ape set?

Looks like one of the missing Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan sets?

[LFJ]

That's weird. How is he the direct descendent, ha. He must be thousands of years old then. Must be a typo by the webmaster.

The direct descendent of Damo is who Shaolin always credits their early stuff to.

嫡传 means handed down in a direct line from the founder, 弟子 means disciple. So as Bodhidharma's 嫡传弟子 it just means he is directly descended from that line. Much like Bodhidharma is Śākyamuni Buddha's 嫡传弟子.

What I found strange was the fact that they were saying Zhu Tianxi originally created Liuhegong. It goes on to say how he used a lot of his experience and knowledge of Neigong to put it together.

[LFJ]

What is the set after the monkey-ape set?

Looks like one of the missing Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan sets?

You mean on this vid:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyMTE3NDY4.html

No, that's just his version of Datongbiquan again.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys,

I'm privileged to say I train under CuiXiQi. He started learning Shaolin back in the 1930's and is still teaching to this day, every day.

He is a great Master and is the strongest link to the Shaolin of the pre-modern era.

I know this Datongbei and it is very dense in technique. There is also a second set!

The Youku video J posted is a performance from him and his son and grandsons. The first set is not complete, he stopped early.

As a rare treat the last performance has Xiaohong quan on the right, DamoZhang in the back and QIxing Quan on the left. Whats great is this is the early shaolin temple Qixing Quan, not the now standard version. I don't think another video of this version exists. This Qixing quan also has a second set. Master CuiXiqi repertoire is vast.

@Sal sorry to say though I don't think they practice the Lao Hong quan you are talking about. Lao hong is quite location specific and there are many variations. I am aware of the version your interested in but I have yet to find its source. I'll let you know when I do though. They do practice all 4 sets of xiaohong quan though!

[RenDaHai]

On the ZhuTianXI thing,

I think that he created a qigong like set called Liuhegong and it is this set they are referring to as opposed to the concept of Liuhe which is offcourse much older.

[LFJ]

Right, it's the Liuhegong set that Zhu Tianxi does. His website says he created it. I thought Sal spoke as if it was ancient, along with his Chanyuangong which Sal said was an ancient root of Chen Style Taijiquan.....

[RenDaHai]

Oh I see,

I don't know about TianXi's forms really, lots of stuff I've never seen. Could be.

@Sal

If you like origin forms you HAVE to see nanyuan Xiao Hong Quan,

Every form comes from this!

[Xian]

I mean it would be so simple but can this Nanyuan Xiao Hong Quan be seen on the net ? Thanks.

Kind regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

@ Xian

Not a chance,

Sorry

But one Day I'll try to post one

[Xian]

@ Xian

Not a chance,

Sorry

But one Day I'll try to post one

Haha I am not suprised :D But thanks anyway. You know normally I wouldnt have a problem with that. But the more I understand the more I get worried that the less real Traditional Kung Fu people see the more of that pseudo Traditional Kung Fu will be shown to them...


Kind regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

Haha I am not suprised :D But thanks anyway. You know normally I wouldnt have a problem with that. But the more I understand the more I get worried that the less real Traditional Kung Fu people see the more of that pseudo Traditional Kung Fu will be shown to them...


Kind regards,
Xian

Ahaha

Yeah, its true,

But there is no answer, people will not understand what they see....

[wenshu]

Haha I am not suprised :D But thanks anyway. You know normally I wouldnt have a problem with that. But the more I understand the more I get worried that the less real Traditional Kung Fu people see the more of that pseudo Traditional Kung Fu will be shown to them...


Kind regards,
Xian


Ahaha

Yeah, its true,

But there is no answer, people will not understand what they see....

I love the smell of arrogance in the morning.

[rett]

I love the smell of an inferiority complex mixed with dairy sweat.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You mean on this vid:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyMTE3NDY4.html

No, that's just his version of Datongbiquan again.

What is the history of that Da Tongbi set? I am seeing Lao Hong Quan, and stuff from the 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan in it.

Was it derived from them? or a possible forerunner?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Does anyone know where I can find good applications for the moves in the Ape/Monkey set?

That would go a long way to helping figure it out. Then we could look at the usage, and compare to other types of Long fist, Taiji quan, Tong Bei etc...

The usage is the heart of the form, without it, the form means nothing.

[Thomas316]

sal, will you ever make an instructional dvd series on chinese martial arts?

[Sal Canzonieri]

嫡传 means handed down in a direct line from the founder, 弟子 means disciple. So as Bodhidharma's 嫡传弟子 it just means he is directly descended from that line. Much like Bodhidharma is Śākyamuni Buddha's 嫡传弟子.

What I found strange was the fact that they were saying Zhu Tianxi originally created Liuhegong. It goes on to say how he used a lot of his experience and knowledge of Neigong to put it together.

Hmm, I find that hard to believe that he solely created it.

I have a Shaolin Qigong book that has the same set, with different names for the movements, and in a different order.

So maybe he redeveloped the set in the way he particularly teaches it, but regardless, the original postures are already in existence.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What is the history of that Da Tongbi set? I am seeing Lao Hong Quan, and stuff from the 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan in it.

Was it derived from them? or a possible forerunner?

Shaolin Tongbi Quan was developed from TZ Chang Quan and Hong Quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

sal, will you ever make an instructional dvd series on chinese martial arts?

Well, that sure would be nice. I'd love to do one were I such exactly how the body mechanics are and WHY it is done that way for maximum efficiency and effectiveness.

I just got filmed doing step by step how to do qigong and neigong.

I should just take a form and do it, I'll keep it in mind.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh I see,

I don't know about TianXi's forms really, lots of stuff I've never seen. Could be.

@Sal

If you like origin forms you HAVE to see nanyuan Xiao Hong Quan,

Every form comes from this!

Wow, that would be great.

How does Nayuan Xiao Hong Quan compare to the Lao Xiao Hong Quan set (the longer fuller version?) I think I have it posted on my YouTube channel.

I have seen Nanyuan Tongbi Quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, I find that hard to believe that he solely created it.

I have a Shaolin Qigong book that has the same set, with different names for the movements, and in a different order.

So maybe he redeveloped the set in the way he particularly teaches it, but regardless, the original postures are already in existence.

yeah, "Shaolin Wu Fang Chan Gong" 'Five Direction Chan Work' section of this book:
中医气功学
ISBN 978-7-80231-223-4

Some of the same postures with the same names, but the 3rd one is missing and instead a totally different 5th one is there (which is found in Chan Yuan Gong). And there is no 6th one.

So, I don't see how he "invented" it, just changed it to make it his own.

[LFJ]

How does Nayuan Xiao Hong Quan compare to the Lao Xiao Hong Quan set (the longer fuller version?) I think I have it posted on my YouTube channel.

RDH can't access Youtube in China... but it's the one performed by Shi Dejun titled Laojia Hongquan on Youku and other Chinese video sites.

Unfortunately, all I can find is the entire hour long video. But here it is for reference:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTY5OTcyMDM2.html

[wenshu]

I love the smell of an inferiority complex mixed with dairy sweat.

Especially the morning after an all nighter of gormandized butterfat and self loathing.

[RenDaHai]

Wow, that would be great.

How does Nayuan Xiao Hong Quan compare to the Lao Xiao Hong Quan set (the longer fuller version?) I think I have it posted on my YouTube channel.

I have seen Nanyuan Tongbi Quan.

Hey Sal, Thats an interesting question (and thanks for posting the video LFJ). I know the one. This form is actually the XiaoHongQuan isolated in the mountain village 'LuoTuoYuan' (The village LiangYiquan master of Epo is from). I went there and actually when they perform the form they do all the Shu Shen movements in Ding Bu as you would expect. They call the form Dahong quan for some reason though it is certainly XiaoHOngQuan.

ANyway actually nanyuan Xiaohong QUan is closer to the current xiao hong quan, although all its movements are long armed and the rear hand is held in a hook against the rear leg like in this form. However it contains no PiXinZhang (heart splitting palm)! It follows largely the same sequence as XHQ but is shorter and much simpler. But at the same time more profound in its simplicity. Instead of The push palm all its techniques are a relaxed Tiger claw and it favours the back of the hand like BanShou but done to the side of the face as opposed to the front. The relaxed tiger claw almost looks like sword fingers but with the thumb open and ready to grasp. It can be seen in the shaolin Mural. This Tiger claw is maintained through most of the moves and is a useful hand as it can change at any time, more quickly than a fist.

But When you see it you will see how its simple moves can easily be changed to many other shaolin techniques. ANd indeed many other northern styles. It is called MuQuan (mother fist) after all and I believe a great deal of shaolin wushu (and other styles) is based on it. I think it represents an older Xiaohong quan and I believe it has evolved less than the current one. Certainly seeing it helps the understanding of the current xiaohongquan as well.


I have to start filming some of these things while they are still here.....

LFJ I'll perform this one for you when you get to China.

[RenDaHai]

I love the smell of arrogance in the morning.

Ah, Modesty is a weakness! :D

[LFJ]

I have to start filming some of these things while they are still here.....

LFJ I'll perform this one for you when you get to China.

Yes, you should even film yourself doing them. You have very good and powerful gongfu! Don't be shy, for the sake of research and preservation! :D

Wish I had more time. I will have a pretty full schedule everyday.

I know Shi Deyang has many sets or versions of sets he doesn't teach much, including Nanyuan material. The traditional part of his school basically does the standard Shaolin sets in the way you see them nowadays in Dengfeng. I wonder if he also has this Nanyuan XHQ you speak of. Do you know where else it may be found?

[RenDaHai]

Hehe, Thanks, yeah I'll get around to filming one day....

I had to go to rather a lot of trouble to learn it, and its not in Dengfeng. If you ever want to go there though I'll tell you how. But I do happen to know for a fact that at least one monk inside shaolin practices this form, and several monks who spent time there. And I would not be surprised at all if Deyang knows it. It is the same sect as his Tongbei quan. Tong bei is their Kanjia quan, their favourite set so if he learned this it stands to reason he would have the oppertunity to learn any of their sets.

You'll have to get as much info from ShiDeyang as you can, I know he has a ton of rare stuff that it would be cool just to hear about.

[Thomas316]

its good to hear you will consider making a dvd. can you please choose an external shaolin form and also demonstrate the hidden applications on the dvd?

[LFJ]

The hand posture is called Ren Shou, "acknowledgement hands", like two old Chinese ladies greeting each other by touching their knuckles together of their hands, everyone has seen this hand gesture in many old movies and so on.

In application it is a sudden wipe of the opponent's brow that sends him off balance and tipping over to the ground, or else feel a broken or sprained neck if showing any resistance.

That is 认手. I haven't heard it this way.

In the Shaolin Encyclopedia on Xiaotongbiquan it is 纫手, pronounced exactly the same way. This "ren" means "to thread" like threading a needle, which Shi Deyang explained comes from monks daily lives where they must sometimes repair robes or sew quilts. They realized this hand shape where the fingers and thumbs come together to thread a needle can be used in applications.

It's basically the same posture as in this Yuanhouquan, obviously because Xiaotongbiquan is partially based on it. I wonder what the lyrics are like on this Yuanhouquan.

[LFJ]

ANyway actually nanyuan Xiaohong QUan is closer to the current xiao hong quan, although all its movements are long armed and the rear hand is held in a hook against the rear leg like in this form.

Hook against the rear leg, just like the Laojia Hongquan mentioned above. Also Xiaotongbiquan does several gongbu tuizhang with the rear hand in goushou against the leg.


Instead of The push palm all its techniques are a relaxed Tiger claw and it favours the back of the hand like BanShou but done to the side of the face as opposed to the front.

Nanyuan Datongbiquan is very repetitive and does the banshou like that a lot as well. It looks like tuizhang but strikes to the outside with the back of the hand.

It sounds like the Xiaohongquan that Xiaotongbiquan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan is partially based on must be this Nanyuan Xiaohongquan. I'm excited to see what it's like.


The relaxed tiger claw almost looks like sword fingers but with the thumb open and ready to grasp. It can be seen in the shaolin Mural. This Tiger claw is maintained through most of the moves and is a useful hand as it can change at any time, more quickly than a fist.

If it's just like the sword fingers but with the thumb open, then this is one Shi Deyang uses a lot. The second section of his version of Baduanjin does this with the "drawing" hand also bending the index and middle in just like you would actually draw a bow, making it look more like a tiger or eagle claw. Also the sword form Longquanjian has the thumb open like this, index and middle extended.

[RenDaHai]

It may be interesting to know that the Renshou XiaoTongbei quan is also nanyuan pai, although from a different time.

Thats why the name is so confused. XiaoTOng bei is like in the LZH videos, Datongbei is one we all know (see CuiXiqi above), and Renshou xiaoTongbei is a Nanyuan form. As is the long pao quan with lots of Xiexings.

However Nanyuan like Xiyuan is also split into different sects.

Yeah Nanyuan Xiaohong quan is very interesting. It even contains the drawing a bow posture from BaDuanJin with the tiger claw. (In place of standard XHQ Jinjiduli).

At one time Xiyuan and nanyuan Xiaohong quan was one form but I believe the nanyuan one may be an older version, would take a long time to explain why.

On Renshou , I have heard both different names. But I use the threading a needle name. However as i was told it is because it hits a precise target, like trying to thread a needle. It is often used as a change after a missed technique, I.e Tuizhang misses and renshou continues.

Yuan HOu quan I have seen CLose up, it actually uses several different hands including one very unique hand with 1 finger extended. Also the video doesn't show all the form, it has some strange moves in there later. Very cool though. Some techniques from Luohan Quan.

[LFJ]

It may be interesting to know that the Renshou XiaoTongbei quan is also nanyuan pai, although from a different time.

Thats why the name is so confused. XiaoTOng bei is like in the LZH videos, Datongbei is one we all know (see CuiXiqi above), and Renshou xiaoTongbei is a Nanyuan form. As is the long pao quan with lots of Xiexings.

I remember talking about those Liu Zhenhai videos on Xiaotongbiquan. Didn't the sequences of at least one of them match up with the lyrics of the "lost" Taizu Changquan sets in the Shaolin Encyclopedia? Will have to look up that discussion again.


On Renshou , I have heard both different names. But I use the threading a needle name. However as i was told it is because it hits a precise target, like trying to thread a needle. It is often used as a change after a missed technique, I.e Tuizhang misses and renshou continues.

Nice.


Yuan HOu quan I have seen CLose up, it actually uses several different hands including one very unique hand with 1 finger extended. Also the video doesn't show all the form, it has some strange moves in there later. Very cool though. Some techniques from Luohan Quan.

I see the one finger thing in the video, unless it's another kind. There's another clip that starts in the middle, on Youtube so I'm not sure if you've seen it. He does several more moves that aren't in the other full video. But it also cuts off before he finishes.

[Xian]

Anywhere in this thread was a video of Shi Yongwen where he does a lot of forms and also does an ape stick form(Rendahai mentioned it). In some parts I was somehow remembered of this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bnsrl0PVPo&feature=related

I was lucky to learn a part of it, during a Seminar. Its from an rather unknown lineage of Hung Kuen. I asked the master of the roots of this form. He said is not complety clear where it does comes from, but it seems according to his knowledge that Yang Wu Lang learned it somewhere and incorperated it into the style. To be honest I cant recall it 100%


Kind regards,
Xian

[Xian]

Can someone maybe send me the pdf mentioned a few sites before ? Please send me an PN and Ill give you my email.

Thanks in advance,

Xian

[LFJ]

I've rearranged the only two clips we have of Yuanhouqaun to include the opening and closing, as well as all the sections in the middle. It goes together smoothly. Perhaps this is a look at the complete set then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUM8MFutaWM

[Xian]

Wow very nice, thanks :)


Kind regards,
Xian

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I've rearranged the only two clips we have of Yuanhouqaun to include the opening and closing, as well as all the sections in the middle. It goes together smoothly. Perhaps this is a look at the complete set then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUM8MFutaWM

YES!! This is my take on it!

I absolutely love this form! It is so rich with essential applications! I worked it out off of the diagram originally. As soon as I was doing it I decided to make it the guiding set of my first level. As soon as I had it, I instantly knew applications for almost every inch of it.