Is this real???

[Tvebak]

I have seen a "shifu" claiming to teach several animal forms doing some praying mantis.
And i couldent belive what i saw.
He used the fistsorm with the wrist bended and the thumb and index finger together, and he used the two fingers for striking in a way that seemed very unhealty.
for instance striking the back off the neck, the temple, and some points on the shoulder and neck.
it seemed to me that if an average person should use his fingers this way, he would probably break them.
When i asked the "shifu" about it he said that you should condition your fingers by tapping them against a piece of wood hundreds of times each day.
allso he said that for hard punches you should use the back off the wrist.
He did some forms, but they were all freestyle, no set forms.
He said thids was because mantis is an advanced system.
I dunno, sounds like BS to me.
Is this real?

[robertwilliam]

Yes, actually, if the hands are conditioned correctly the mantis stinger, or pointer finger can be used to strike pressure points - and the back of the wrist is good for striking also throat, groin... -the only conditioning i've seen for the back of the wrist is to do pushups on the backs of the wrists - and any conditioning iv'e seen for the pointer is more or less to build chi, and speed exersises -I'm sure tht there are tons of advanced skills that can be developed for the mantis hand strikes - see the 7* "the tiger creeps down" gung - I wouldn't want to be hit by someone posessing that skill - where the final stage of training is 30 rocking pushups, with weights, on just your 2 pointer fingers! Peace out

[mantis108]

Don't mean to open a can of worms. Honestly, I have a very umcomfortable feeling that this "Sifu" visited the modern WuShu schools too much. What's next? They get in a low stance and "shake" like a mantis? Free style mantis fighter, would be the most ideal but that is far from possible at present time.

Any part of the body can be conditioned if you so choose. The back of the hand can be conditioned as mentioned above or with basic iron palm training. Those hits might pass off as a fient (I personally doubt it would work), but seriously hurting the opponent? I am unable to imagine that.

The back hand hit of Mantis uses the Jun (advance) concept mostly as a fient that follows the Diu. It is part of the act and is reinforced by other strikes. The illusive nature of the back hand formation would be greatly reduced if it is performed as a hard strike. If a Mantis stylist wants to poke at something, he would mostly use the sword finger formation or the finger jab and use the straight line attack for it is the shortest route to the target. There are tones of tools in the Mantis toolbox. Excessive and incorrect use of a Mantis Claw would not mean that one is doing real Praying Mantis.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[robertwilliam]

I do have to respond to the effectiveness of the above mentioned techniques - I would have to agree with mantis108 about some points and disagree with some others -
1. I do agree, in that unless you are a master of your choosen style, the pointer finger strike on the shoulders, trapezeius (sp?) would anger your opponent, or make them laugh - and set them up for a good leg technique to the face because they would be bent over laughing .I also agree that I myself would use the back of the wrist in a block or feint to be followed up by a good hard head shot.
I disagree though about the effectiveness of the stikes on soft targets - which comprise a good percentage of the mantis target areas - ie eyes, throat,and groin - as well as an upward back of the wrist strike to the testicals(sp?)or bladder a hooking strike to the temple, and being at the opponents side door with your left or right hand (depending on which side you are on) on the wrist, while following up the arm to the throat -Take into consideration physics - the spike on a ladies' high - heel shoe 1/4" x 1/4"? x 150lbs? Whe she steps down, onto one foot, there is approximately 150lbs x 1/4" x 16(16 being the amount of square 1/4 inches = 2400lbs per square inch vs the bare heel (2x2"?) or 150 / 2 = 75lbs per square inch - now which has more penetrating power? This could be like compairing a palm heel strike to a finger tip strike - each stike has it's own purpose

[obiwan]

Ok,

first, if you can strike with the fingers, it's easier to strike with knuckles that you dont have to condition that much.

Fingers are great for eyes, but I wouldnt risk ti much else. Sure you can do it, but for the amount of time and training you spend, you should work on some other aspect that gives you greater advantage.

We hit with the back of the wrist into groin, throat and temple.

Not because we can, but first, the hook (back of the wrist) has a smaller area, therefore slips into places a normal block might have stopped.

You will be suprised just how much difference it makes. I always seem to slip in an extra attack a punch could not have achieved, just because the hook is small and fast.

Second, you can throw a hook in a different movement from your body. That's not the best way to explain it, but in 4th level Jai Yao mantis, the punch is a feint, converts to a hook and strikes in a small arc rather than a straight line. It's a tiny deviation, but again, it gives you strike areas that your punch could not have gotten to.

It's hard to explain on email, but examine overhead hook strikes in the Ba zhao form. The head and body ducks low, while the hook hits overhead. The trick is to make it look like you 're throwing a heavy punch that moves with your body, then drop and the hook cuts slightly above and to the side hitting the head or temples.

Darn effective. I've suckered many a people with that, and if you dont think it hurts, when done properly, I've stunned many people with those hits even with FULL head guards on. It was solid enough to make some guys stagger back, and retreat, because they had no idea what hit them. (and I'm training with similar standards not rookies) They only realised what I hit them with after they think for a second, or just after they get hit.

Hooks are more effective than people givecredit for.

The Force will be with you...always