Grip Fight

[YouKnowWho]

If you see this clip from 0.14 to 0.38, you can see that both of them spent a lot of effort trying not to allow the other to get any grips.

http://johnswang.com/sc3.wmv

Why this kind of "grip fight" is not emphasized in Judo?

[Oso]

it is totally emphasized in judo and traditional gi jujitsu.

why do you think it is not?

the 'grip' shiat and the gi chokey **** is why I will shoot a judo guy in a heartbeat...as long as the ref doesn't notice the gun, of course.

[Water Dragon]

I dunno. Why aren't these guys doing it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvV7LsZIQ0

[YouKnowWho]

it is totally emphasized in judo and traditional gi jujitsu.

why do you think it is not?

the 'grip' shiat and the gi chokey **** is why I will shoot a judo guy in a heartbeat...as long as the ref doesn't notice the gun, of course.
Because some Judo guy said, "Grip-fighting is not judo" and I don't understand that's one Judo guy's view point or general Judo guy's view point.

IMO, if you don't let your opponent to get grips on you then it will be hard for him to throw you. It's to your advantage and that's for sure.


I dunno. Why aren't these guys doing it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvV7LsZIQ0
I agree that they didn't fight as hard as they should.

[Oso]

i dunno about that judo guy either...granted my experience is limited to one, rather small, club and one reasonably large tournament at UT, but there were two guys wearing black belts at the club that qualified for 'geezer' status...and there was a fair amouint of emphasis on getting the grip :shrug: so, i dunno.

[naja]

If you see this clip from 0.14 to 0.38, you can see that both of them spent a lot of effort trying not to allow the other to get any grips.

http://johnswang.com/sc3.wmv

Why this kind of "grip fight" is not emphasized in Judo?

because that's a totally bogus clip. What are they trying to accomplish? The feared "titty-twister"?

Come on, you tube for a clip of a decent judo shia if you want to see why the grip is used.

[naja]

i dunno about that judo guy either...granted my experience is limited to one, rather small, club and one reasonably large tournament at UT, but there were two guys wearing black belts at the club that qualified for 'geezer' status...and there was a fair amouint of emphasis on getting the grip :shrug: so, i dunno.

I don't think that second clip is judo either. They aren't even wearing judogis, and they aren't doing much in the way of randori either.

[Oso]

neither were judo..they were shuai jiao

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grip work is crucial in Judo and all gi-oriented sport systems like BJJ and Sambo.
Its just not overly-emphisied over anythign else.
Your grip needs to be good enough for you you need it to be, ie: control.
It needs to be strong enough to hold on while doing the throws and grappling, sure the stronger the grip that better, IF you maintain a certain flexibility with it and its not "stiff".

[MightyB]

Seriously,

any Judoka that's even contemplating competition has to become a master gripfighter. It's a science in Judo- it's part of what's called Koka-Jitzu (using rules to win).

this is the master text and it should be a part of every Judokas library-
http://www.amazon.com/Grips-Judo-Masterclass-Techniques-Neil/dp/095184556X

Here's the new guru:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl5l-YELUls
don't be too sold though- good coaches know these techniques.

[MightyB]

another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sea14kHhlzY&feature=related

There's just so many...

[m1k3]

There are entire books, dvds and courses dedicated to grip fighting. A corollary in wrestling and no-gi is hand fighting and clinch fighting. Working and defending underhooks, wrist/hand control, neck control, arm drags and a whole host of other things.

[Merryprankster]

Grip fighting is vital to Judo, Wrestling and BJJ. It's a must. My throws, I consider barely average. My grip-fighting is well above average, and it gives people fits.

All the people I have known who are good at any of the above sports are excellent grip-fighters

[specialed]

Wang, get out of your shuai chiao shell and start playing with experienced grapplers from other styles. You might just learn something. I'm serious, making assumptions without validating them is sloppy.

[MasterKiller]

Wang, get out of your shuai chiao shell and start playing with experienced grapplers from other styles. You might just learn something. I'm serious, making assumptions without validating them is sloppy.

I think John is just trying to stimulate some decent conversation here. Give him some room to maneuver.

[Water Dragon]

Please do not disrespect Mr. Wang. If you're not sure who he is, do the research.

A couple things I've noticed training both Shuai Chiao and Judo. The arts are very similar, but not the same. The attacks tend to be set up differently. Shuai Chiao emphasises using the grip to move the person. One thing I learned is the more I could move the guy, the easier I could throw him. Movement was used more than Kuzushi to take the balance. There was a lot of running past the guy, pushing him one way and then yanking him back in the opposite direction, and getting the guy to 'walk' and then sticking your leg out to trip him.

Judo emphasizes using the grip to manipulate the body structure; classic Kazushi. Movement and Kuzushi are used for the same purpose, to break the balance, but they do it differently. In Judo, I'll let you have a grip if it means I can get a better one. Basically, I'll offer you my sleeve so I can have my over the back grip. Once I get that, I'll yank you in and drive my shoulder into your jaw using a Kao type movement. Once I have yor jaw jammed to your side, you're pretty much helpless because I control you and you're in a backward 'C'.

I use that all the time for O Soto, where in SC, I would yank you to me and then run past you trying to 'drag' you off your balance and then do a Diagonal Cut. Same technique, Two ways to get there.

You have to remember that everything is relative. There is a huge amount of SC in my Judo. In fact, we cool down with the 13 Postures a lot in me Judo class. Senseii loves them. I've been told more than once that I 'move Chinese.' Everything that exists in Judo exists in SC and vice versa (in regard to throwing strategy) Different things are emphasized more or less, but they're there in some way. I laughed the first time I saw a Judo guy grapevine another guys leg and yank it out.

Also, you have to take into account who you're watching. That's why I posted that video on the first post. Not everyone in the arts are Masters yet, students will not be able to truly 'express' their art for a long time. Just think of a BJJ blue belt compared to a brown or black belt. Same thing in SC and Judo.

Wow, I really need to make it up to Austin one of these days. I miss getting my butt handed to me SC style

[YouKnowWho]

Wang, get out of your shuai chiao shell and start playing with experienced grapplers from other styles. You might just learn something. I'm serious, making assumptions without validating them is sloppy.
I have wrestled with many Judo guys and wrestlers in my life. I can tell that all 3 styles (SC, Judo, wrestling) do treat the "grip fight" differently.

For example, in order to break your opponent's grip, you will need to sacrifice one of your grip. Whether you are willing to do that or not depends on the style.

1. You have 2 grips on your opponent, your opponent also has 2 grips on you (I try to avoid this situation, 2-2).
2. You sacrifice your right grip and break his left grip by using tearing (now you have left grip and he has right grip, 1-1).
3. You re-grab your right hand back on him before his left hand has a chance to grab you back (now you have 2 grips on him and he has only 1 grip on you, 2-1).
4. You then sacrifice your left grip and break his right grip by using tearing (now you have 1 grip on him but he has none, 1-0).
5. you then execute your circle running by moving toward his right side door. This way his right arm will jam his left arm and 1/2 side of his body has been shut down.

In SC term, this is called "circle running". In Judo term, they may call it "bully on the mat". I haven't seen wrestlers do this because the no jacket environment.

[Oso]

good post, WD.

could someone define 'tearing' for me? I think i get it but...

[lkfmdc]

Considering the history, you can understand how the Chinese viewed Judo, a Japanese martial art imposed upon Taiwan during an imperialistic period. HOwever, in the long run, the quest to be better, more authentic, different, Chinese etc HAS hurt Shuai Jiao....

Not saying Shihfu Wang isn't very good at what he does, and lord knows I've not only done Chang lineage Shuai Jiao, I STILL do Chang style lineage Shuai Jiao in my program. But I've seen up close and personal the "politics" and they have hurt the development of the art

[YouKnowWho]

could someone define 'tearing' for me? I think i get it but...
Throw your shoulder back and strike at the wrist of your opponent's grip holding and break the grip.


But I've seen up close and personal the "politics" and they have hurt the development of the art
I left Taiwan almost 39 years ago. I have zero interest in "politics". I'm just interesting in "grip fighting".

[bawang]

hi guys
what is grip fighting? when you grab cloth? or grab arm?cuz if its grab clothing when i saw local shuai jiao they wear no sleeves small shirt and some wear no shirt.

[lkfmdc]

I left Taiwan almost 39 years ago. I have zero interest in "politics". I'm just interesting in "grip fighting".

Then more power to you, but I was doing Chang lineage Shuai JIao IN the US and still saw a lot of the politics

A huge difference in gripping is the "uniform".... the shuai jiao jacket, esepcially the way Master Chang "rolled it" has many less handles than the typical Judo Gi

Sambo's uniform is also different, leading to many gripping strategy changes

I was never much for gripping, but our new BJJ instructor is doing both gi and no-gi so we'll learn more soon :D

[YouKnowWho]

I was never much for gripping,
Besides breaking a clinching situation, the "grip fight" has little value in combat environment such as Sanshou or Sanda (because the gloves).


hi guys
what is grip fighting? when you grab cloth? or grab arm?cuz if its grab clothing when i saw local shuai jiao they wear no sleeves small shirt and some wear no shirt.
IMO, the definition of "grip fight" is to:

- temporary control your opponent's arms,
- put those arms in a temporary position, and
- enter for your attack while whose arms are not in your attacking path and cause you any trouble.

It's a strategy that can apply both in Gi or no Gi situation (it has no value when you have gloves on).


I'll let you have a grip if it means I can get a better one.
SC uses the same approach too. If you can get your "major hand', you don't mind to let your opponent to have his "minor hand" but not the other way around.

IMO, the major difference between SC and Judo in 'grip fight" is the 2-1, or 1-0 concept that you try to have 2 (or 1) grips and let your opponent has 1 (or 0) grip.

[Water Dragon]

IMO, the major difference between SC and Judo in 'grip fight" is the 2-1, or 1-0 concept that you try to have 2 (or 1) grips and let your opponent has 1 (or 0) grip.

My Judo coach preaches the same thing. One thing he'll do is take an opposite grip from you and 'crush' your arm into you so it's wedged between both bodies. Now the guy has only one arm to work with.

[Merryprankster]

WD,

What you described above is why I don't really advocate people using a cross lapel grip unless they know EXACTLY what they are going to do with it. I crush people's arms to their body all the time by using a modified shrug movement, like I'm going to a russian tie, and then turning back in and closing the gap. They can't move their arm outward to keep me from doing it because of the bad leverage position and get folded up.

[YouKnowWho]

Here are some more SC type of "grip fight" in this clip (from 0.26 - 0.52). Just wonder you guys think it's similar or different from the Judo grip fight.

http://johnswang.com/sc6.wmv

[Oso]

Throw your shoulder back and strike at the wrist of your opponent's grip holding and break the grip.


to clarify:

shoulder back on the side he's griipping and strike with the opposite side hand?

[YouKnowWho]

Assume your opponent's left hand grab on your right front door and his right hand grabs on your left front door. You punch your right hand at his right shoulder (捅 Tong - Striking push) and at the same time you pull your left shoulder back and use your left hand to "comb your hair" and strike on his right wrist to break his right grip (撕 Si - Tearing).

I don't know what will Judo guy call "front door" or "side door"?

[Oso]

ok, so a little more complicated than I thought. I was just thinking of striking the hand/wrist itself. thanks.