Stepping Out!

[BeiTangLang]

I am curious as to how the different styles of mantis use their stepping techniques to avoid or negate attacks from aggressors....or do you at all?( for the sake of opening conversation on this,...asume a lead-hand straight punch).
Also, do you find your footwork to have more linear or circular movements in it?
-BTL

"If you eat bitter, you will taste bitter..."

[8stepsifu]

more angular, like triangle stepping. Sometimes to body moves in a circular fasion either on it's own to get around the opponent or turning with the opponent.

If your not bleeding, your not having enough fun.

[mantis108]

If the opponent's Centerline is open, which means he has little or no guard, or his torso is relatively stationery, while he is delivering the right Lead Jab, I would slip in with a reversed Gua Fu Stance. Left hand intercept with hook concept and right hand drill punch chest in a upper cut fashion. You are not going to get tiger's cub if you don't enter tiger's dan.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[jutsow]

that is the corniest, sappiest, and dangeriosly stupid line of dribble i have read on this forum. and that includes my posts ;) .from now on please think before you type. it would save us all alot of headacke.

[mantis108]

Look, I will only say this once and for all. This is a public forum and you are entitled to express your opinion. It doesn't have to be nice yet it doesn't have be personal. I will say what I feel like saying without causing grief to others, so can you. This is not the first time you have problem with my posts. If you have technique(s) to share, which I believe is the spirit of this thread, share it! If not leave the space for someone else. If you think that I am going to keyboard sparring with you, like others already have, you are mistaken. I think everyone has to yet see your brillant technical post. It is easy to roleplay a critique. As far as your post goes, stupid is stupid does, same to you, think before you type! This will be my last address to you.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[jutsow]

thank you for putting me in my place. you sure showed me the error of my ways.[get a life] are you sure you dont study kenpo/kempo. or,,gasp,,,WING CHUN.

KENPO SUCKS
ALWAYS HAS
ALWAYS WILL
BUT,,, HEY ,, AT LEAST ITS NOT WING CHUN

[fiercest tiger]

obviously you have not seen the technique hak fu tau sun (black tiger steals the heart). it is neither corny or sappy. dangerously stupid? no, but very dangerous - yes. the name says it all. this move, if done correctly, will stop the heart.

mantis 108. is that one of your bak mei techniques or is it present in mantis as well?

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[count]

Alright, you guys want to take it outside while we get back on track.

Stepping

Definitely mantis stepping is triangular. Whether you hop or step to the side you must retreat forward. Borrowed from the crane and from the monkey systems the mantis footwork adds it's own methods of trapping and locking to the legs. Each step becomes a kick. Step in and kick off the front or cross step and kick with the rear. I think triangular is more efficient than circular. When sparring with my bagua brothers they try to circle around me and it only takes 2 steps on the triangle to turn a full 180 degrees while they walk 8 steps or so around. To take from the praying mantis spirit, fewer more efficient moves is more effective to lure your pray in and devour it.

I can think of no time when fighting where a mantis should go centerline. Especially when fighting a larger, stronger opponent. There is a Chinese saying that says "If you think you can beat your opponent, go in through the front door, If you think you can not beat him, go in through the side door."∂

[mantis108]

I am not so sure I would want to stick to a style that can be describe with a finite statement. If a simple direct attack is not available in the system's arsenal, can you call that system complete? Even a new kid on the block like JKD has it. A more than 300 years old system don't? No wonder we have bad reps being useless these days. True that Mantis is a striking art with a progressive indirect approach (Yau) but there are simple direct attack (Gong) as well. "Baat Gong Sup Yee Yau, Baat Da Baat Butt Da" is elementary Mantis. It gravely sadden me that one of the Baat Butt Da is only intelligently recongnizable to a stylist who doesn't study Northern Mantis. If the study of Mantis is a tunnel vision of fancy dance, than we are no better than Kempo/kenpo/Karate (no offense intended) which are deemed to be bullfighting. Slipping using reverse Riding Tiger stance enables Mantis stylist to gain ground with ulmost economy of motion and extended reach; hence, the adage "initates after, but arrives fisrt." I chosed Tai Chi Praying Mantis as my major study is because of its balanced approach and its practicality not because it's some fancy eye candy.

Fiercest Tiger,

This is one of the Tai Chi Praying Mantis Sau Fa. It is dear to me because Sigung Chui Chuk Kai demonstrated "on" me personally while we were on the subject of Baat Butt Da. Glad you recognize the effectiveness. The one in Bak Mei would be done in a different stance and different hand formation (Ying jiu uppercut Vs Fung Ngan reverse punch).

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[fiercest tiger]

bak mei's black tiger steals the heart, may be a little different, in ykm it is a similar punch to a hung gar uppercut(swinging) circular fashion.

there is suppost to be a taijimantis teacher around here in sydney, ill go and have a look at what this style is about.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Scarletmantis]

I agree with Count's assesment of the angular stepping patern, but how do you figure that centerline attacks are a no-no?
My school teaches a "Vee" like stepping pattern with a line straight down the center. The acute angle of the "Vee" starts at your centerline and opens out toward your opponent. It's permissible to step along any of the three lines according to the situation.
It really is[/I] basic, but this is the pattern we teach to beginners in order to establish good habits. Since so many good targets lay along the centerline, and centerline is the shortest distance between two points (efficient for speed and power), why would you choose to ignore it if an opening presented itself? Just curious. :confused:

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

[seung ga faat]

Gentlemen, Remember footwork,waistwork and bodywork. Linear and diagonal stepping are both accompanied by circular waist and bodywork also you must pivot on the ball or heel of the foot, that is also circular. Often we see only ending postures not the transition movements and this is a very limited view of kung-fu in general and 7 Star Praying Mantis in particular.
What seems linear is not completely linear at all. Mantis uses rope arms and monkey body skills along hooking and sprouting these skills are not completely linear, angular,or circular.
We the Mantis Stylist need to invest more practise and less in boasting.

Thanx, Sifu Othal Thomas

[mantis108]

If there is a TCPM school near your area, please do visit.

Count offers his view and his perception of Mantis in the spirit of sharing which I think is a wonderful thing. Like I said before we don't have to agree. We are here to present a point of view. As far as I am concern, helpful constructive comments are most welcome. BTW, I consider Count a talented cool guy.

ScarletMantis,

Interesting handle. Good points.

Sifu Thomas,

Good post. Thanks :)

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[jutsow]

my real name is bob rosen. i would like to apologize to anyone i have offened. i have been trying to see how my kung fu bretheren would react to a negative force. and i must say i have not been disapionted. you people have not only stood up to "jutsow" but you have also scolded him for his ignorant posts. i am sorry for my methods but i believe the ends justify the means. i would like to thank everyone who has defended me and that it was deeply, deeply apriciated


yours truly
sifu bob rosen

[count]

Scarlet Mantis, I didn't mean, in my last post that praying mantis fighters don't attack centerline targets. Only that they do it from a different angle than say, Hsing-I. I thought we were discussing the angles of the steps not any particular techniques. Not only would I not ignore any opening when presented, I would jump on and take full advantage.

Mantis108, thanks again for the complement. I am giving alot of thought on an interactive CD rom on the topic we discussed. Hope to meet up with you some day.

:cool:

[Scarletmantis]

Your clarification is appreciated. Like you, I am here to learn. If someone presents an unfamiliar concept to me, I want to know as much as I can about it. Thanks again!
I'd like to reiterate my previous post for Sifu Thomas's sake. The stepping pattern I mentioned before is designed to instruct the begginer in the most basic ways to enter and avoid. It's definatly not a "fixed" pattern. In combat, the practitioner should always use his or her training in a fluid, living way in order to defeat his opponent, not adhere to an artificial form. I hope Your frustration wasn't aimed at me. :D

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

[Scarletmantis]

Your clarification is appreciated. Like you, I am here to learn. If someone presents an unfamiliar concept to me, I want to know as much as I can about it. Thanks again!
I'd like to reiterate my previous post for Sifu Thomas's sake. The stepping pattern I mentioned before is designed to instruct the begginer in the most basic ways to enter and avoid. It's definatly not a "fixed" pattern. In combat, the practitioner should always use his or her training in a fluid, living way in order to defeat his opponent, not adhere to an artificial form. I hope Your frustration wasn't aimed at me! :D

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

[seung ga faat]

Sometimes it takes me too long to type out my post. By the time I'm done the topic is back on track. This is one of the cases. Nothing was directed at you and if it seemed that way blame it on my head to keyboard connection.

Thanx, Sifu Othal Thomas

[count]

Must have had you mantis mandible on the mouse. Anyway, you know mantis is always ready to fight. I did see your point about the waist pivot and the pivot of the foot. I also wanted to point out that many mantis sweeps and leg traps take a circular motion. But I still say triangular stepping as a general rule.

[BeiTangLang]

It is good to see some verbage on technique! I have to agree that most mantis that I have seen as well as the mantis that I practice would either charge in with a bow doing Ou Lau Choy or angle to the side into a cat-stance (med) & bo choi/leadhand punch to the heart/ribs, or v-step fung/block with rear hand punch. I thank you all for your replies.
Anyone else with techniques to share or discuss??
-BTL

"It's all the same; Only the names have changed........."