Top of the Foot as a striking surface, WTF?

[SanHeChuan]

There are 26 bones in each foot. It is a sack of loosely connected bones.

There are 10 dorsal digital nerve branches in the foot to convey pain.

It is the target of self defense minded women and children because of the ease with which you can cause pain and injury to the top of the foot.

In kung fu, counters to kicks aim at striking the top of the foot.

How can you possibly reason it's use for any non-soft target. Especially the boniest least muscle padded target, the skull. The only target I can see striking with the top of the foot is the groin, and that would just be a slap. Careful not to strike the hips with force.

You don't put pads on your feet to protect your opponent as much as you do to protect your own foot.

Why even use the side or ball? All other kicks can and should use the heel, designed to take hard impacts, and the area of the foot capable of dealing the most damage.

[David Jamieson]

dude.

soft to hard/hard to soft

all freak show conditioning aside.

:p

[SanHeChuan]

soft to hard/hard to soft

explain? :confused:

Even wing tsun doesn't target hard targets like the head with their "soft" knuckle punch, Because they know how easy the pinky breaks. It's palm heel to face.

[TenTigers]

top of the foot-instep/ankle is for softer targets such as under the groin. This is because it fits, whereas a heel kick can definately strike groin, bladder, pelvis, it does not strike the testes, which hang down between the legs. Nine out of ten times that you've been kicked in the 'nads, it was with an instep.

Blade is actually the edge of the heel and not the side of the foot, which is weak. The heel provides a straight line of force through the leg. Anything foward of the heel can now be weakened by the pivotal action of the ankle, and the separation of bones in the foot.

Crescent kicks can be delivered with the heel, but side of foot/heel is more often the striking surface.

In the Jik Chung Choy, although the metacarpals of the pinky and ring finger 'float," the alignment is direct in line with the ulnar and radius bones of the forearm, so it is actually very well supported-so long as the practitioner is throwing the strike properly.

[YouKnowWho]

Why even use the side or ball?
Your toe push kick (kick with the ball) will have more reach than your keel kick.

http://johnswang.com/Tree_Kick.wmv

[SanHeChuan]

Agreed, but do you really need it? The legs are already longer than the arms. If they are moving away from you, your force would be lost anyway. If you were both throwing a front kick at the same time, maybe.

Far too much emphasis on long range kicking in my opinion, few are comfortable kicking close in. One of the reasons you never see anyone actually doing a crescent kick is because its a close range kick, and needs the hands to set up more than most. Few are willing to play close range, it's either long or tasting your sweat.

[mickey]

Greetings,

What is really dying out with CMA are their kicking sciences. A lot of those "instep" kicks are supposed to be using the toes as a weapon to hit tender spots. I posted a link to a 3 part article a few years ago that addressed toe kicks. I just want to let you know that I went through 12 gates of Hades to find it.

Here it is:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39732&highlight=tan+tui+related

I hope you will find it useful.

mickey

[SanHeChuan]

The student’s response was not unusual. “Ouch, forget that. I try to avoid hitting my toes, not kicking with them.” This is an understandable response. Teaching toe kicks to most students would only result in broken toes and loss of these students.

That really says it all. While there are risks to most forms of conditioning, broken bones shouldn't be one of them.

There is a good reason these methods have died.
They just aren't worth the effort put into them.

I could see a toe kick to the throat though, as we have in mantis. :o
I believe the inch kick is also suppose to be a toe kick to the ankle but that makes no sense to me. :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

but do you really need it? The legs are already longer than the arms.
Another advantage of the toe push kick vs. the heel kick is the toe push kick has less commitment than the heel kick. Why is that important? The way that I like to use my kick is to be able to build a "leg bridge" that my foot touch my opponent's front leg. If I can do that, I'll know where my opponent's front leg is (if I know where his front leg is then I pretty much know where his back leg is), and when I enter and try to build an "arm bridge", I know his leg won't give me any trouble at that moment. I like to use kick as part of my entering strategy and not trying to hurt my opponent (if my opponent runs toward me and trying to knock my head off then that will be a different situation). Here is one example that I'm talking about (use kick as part of the entering strategy).

http://johnswang.com/Side_Door_Chop.wmv

The safety feeling can give me courage, courage can give me more commitment, more commitment can give me more speed, and more speed can give me more momentum to "run my opponent down".

[Drake]

Dude, I wouldn't even go for the groin with the top of the foot. Before I learned anything about MA, I went against a guy and he dropped his elbows down to block my stupidy kicks, hitting me right on the top of the foot on both legs. Walking was an issue for a few days.

Nowadays, that's a target for me against kicks.

[mickey]

SanheChuan,

While the toe is one of the weapons that can be used, so can the shin (do not neglect the knee and hip). I thought you Mantis practitioners had this. The shins can be used in cutting actions to down your opponent. Explore all of the ranges for a particular technique. Some of those kicks may not be kicks at all.

mickey

[SanHeChuan]

Before I learned anything about MA, I went against a guy and he dropped his elbows down to block my stupidy kicks, hitting me right on the top of the foot on both legs.

What kind of freaks elbow hang down to their groin? :eek:


Another advantage of the toe push kick vs. the heel kick is the toe push kick has less commitment than the heel kick. Why is that important? The way that I like to use my kick is to be able to build a "leg bridge" that my foot touch my opponent's front leg. If I can do that, I'll know where my opponent's leg is, and when I enter I know his leg won't give me any trouble. I like to use kick as my entering strategy and not try to hurt my opponent (if my opponent runs toward me and trying to knock my head off then that will be a different situation).

videos not coming up, but?

Am not even sure you talking about a kick if it's not a strike.
Wing Tsun uses a simular method but with the heel.
More surface to contact with.
More foot more control over their leg right?


While the toe is one of the weapons that can be used, so can the shin (do not neglect the knee and hip). I thought you Mantis practitioners had this. The shins can be used in cutting actions to down your opponent. Explore all of the ranges for a particular technique. Some of those kicks may not be kicks at all.

Of course but I'm talking about the foot specifically. not kicks or strikes in general.

When is a kick not a kick, a sweep?

[Drake]

What kind of freaks elbow hang down to their groin? :eek:



videos not coming up, but?

Am not even sure you talking about a kick if it not a strike.
Wing Tsun uses a simular method but with the heel.
More surface to contact with.
More foot more control over their leg right?



Of course but I'm talking about the foot specifically. not kicks or strikes in general.

He did this weird drop down low thingy. To visualize, it looked for a moment like he was trying to lower himself to let me kick his upper body/head. But his elbows came crashing down instead.

[mickey]

"When is a kick not a kick, a sweep?"

Yes, it could be.

mickey

[bawang]

you can say the same thing about the fists man
the fists is pretty fragile at beginning tooo

[SanHeChuan]

you can say the same thing about the fists man
the fists is pretty fragile at beginning tooo

True but a "fist" is a hand collapsed which takes most of the bones out of play, which you can not do with the foot. If I had hands for feet and can make a fist with them I still think I wouldn't kick with the back of my hand. Maybe :confused:

Hand are structured different and easier to condition and arrange in stronger formations.

[bawang]

i agree with what you are saying but i think the foot is not that weak, steady conditioning and it fine. problem i have is the toenail. i break my toenail a dozen times kicking,
i never learned any top foot hit other than low groin kick(which more speed than power), other kicks are with balls and heel and shin. i dont think top foot its common

[SanHeChuan]

i dont think top foot its common

It is in TKD, I know they were talking about in the the round house kick thread which is why I brought it up here.

[bawang]

wow i never knew that tae kwan do in is common.
but if they condition it very hard maybe it not a problem ? i have not learn tkd so i don know
doesnt cro cop use top of foot?

[AJM]

After WWII the children of American servicemen were taught to kick with the top of their foot in Japan so they wouldn't hurt each other.

[EarthDragon]

this is why I corrected them and said ball of the foot on the roundhouse thread but i got argued with so I stopped becuse everyone thinks they are masters..............:confused:

[SanHeChuan]

After WWII the children of American servicemen were taught to kick with the top of their foot in Japan so they wouldn't hurt each other.

Interesting do you have any documentation of that.


this is why I corrected them and said ball of the foot on the roundhouse thread but i got argued with so I stopped becuse everyone thinks they are masters

I have bunions so I can't do a round house kick like that without hurting my big toe. You know the only place I was taught that was Shaolin-do :p

[Hardwork108]

I am with Bawang on this one. I believe it is all in the way one conditions the tools of combat. The following clip shows Uechi Ryu karate (a style which is closely connected to Southern Chinese kung fu) experts using their toes, shins and other limbs to break (and shins) to break pieces of wood.

Iron palm/fist/body are part and parcel of traditional kung fu training and should be practised together with the other aspects.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pant_xwqHMc

[Wildwoo]

Greetings,

What is really dying out with CMA are their kicking sciences. A lot of those "instep" kicks are supposed to be using the toes as a weapon to hit tender spots. I posted a link to a 3 part article a few years ago that addressed toe kicks. I just want to let you know that I went through 12 gates of Hades to find it.

Here it is:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39732&highlight=tan+tui+related

I hope you will find it useful.

mickey

Who's CMA are you talking about? Bak Siu Lum's kicks are alive and well.

[SanHeChuan]

That video didn't play very well.

Find a video where they use the top of the foot to break anything, then you'll have some thing relevant to the conversation.

I did see him hitting is toes with the board, but I didn't see him break anything with them. How many times has he broken his toes? Just because some karateka's would break their fingers to make their knuckles bigger doesn't make that kind of conditioning a good idea.

No one here is saying anything negative about the use of shins and it's irrelevant to a conversation about he weakness of the foot.

[Hardwork108]

That video didn't play very well.

Find a video where they use the top of the foot to break anything, then you'll have some thing relevant to the conversation.

I did see him hitting is toes with the board, but I didn't see him break anything with them. How many times has he broken his toes? Just because some karateka's would break their fingers to make their knuckles bigger doesn't make that kind of conditioning a good idea.

No one here is saying anything negative about the use of shins and it's irrelevant to a conversation about he weakness of the foot.

Here is another link. At 0.38 you can see the master break boards with his toes. The point of the link is to demonstrate that if you can condition your toes to do breaking then perhaps you can condition your top of the foot to take stronger impacts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc&feature=related


Of course, you can still use top of the foot kicks to the side of the neck and other soft targets, if your MA uses such kicks.

Of course there is always the option of using the ball or the heel of your foot that can generally give you more destructive power (generally speaking).

[GreenCloudCLF]

This depends on the forum in which you are kicking. My first KF teacher was also a Black Belt in TKD, which is why I kick with the top of my foot alot.

In sparring, amateur fighting, you have padding on your feet. This is really not an issue.

If you are fighting MMA with no instep protection, you might feel mor comfortable striking with the shin.

If I am walking down the street, I will throw a kick using the top of my foot, I have sneakers (or even better boots) on and that will be enough protection for me.

[David43515]

That really says it all. While there are risks to most forms of conditioning, broken bones shouldn't be one of them.

There is a good reason these methods have died.
They just aren't worth the effort put into them.

I could see a toe kick to the throat though, as we have in mantis. :o
I believe the inch kick is also suppose to be a toe kick to the ankle but that makes no sense to me. :confused:

I`ve seen a Uechi Ryu karate teacher here in Japan who does barefoot kicks with the end of his big toe and dents car doors. He kicks bowling balls and does many breaking demos with that kick.
I knew a Silat teacher in Ohio who did finger tip breaks to the front , rear, and both sides. Most of his students could do them as well.
A small anatomical weapon like a toe or a one-knuckle punch, PROPERLY conditioned, is like hiotting someone with a ball-peen hammer. It doles out serious pain.
As for the toe kick to the ankle, Have you ever had your side kick blocked by a downward punch to the side of your ankle? I couldn`t stand let alone fight. My Choy Lee Fut teacher used to do a foot switch (Switching from right foot forward to left foot forward or vice-versa) that was really a jumpimg side kick delivered to the ankle. He`d jump and switch, and land in a low bow stance with the weight on the back foot. I never got to where I could do it smoothly, but the guys in the class that did could break patio blocks with that kick.

[Lucas]

also take into account footwear.

many chinese practitioners wore boots. many modern humans wear footware as well. I know the shoes im wearing now i could kick something pretty hard with the top of my foot and be fine.

many times i go to the park to play with my friends the trees. with shoes on i do repeated roundhouses with the top of my foot on the tree. pretty hard. Yes i can feel it, but It doesnt damage me so much when i am wearing shoes.

ive had my ribs fractured by a round house that connected withe the top of the foot. the guy was wearing shoes, and was not injured to any noticable degree.

i kept fighting till our match was over, but i can tell you the next few weeks for me were fun...

this is also part of the reason u see CMA guys smacking the top of their foot with snap kick line drills. and kicking hard things with it as well. over years you foot gets tough enough to use the top of the foot for CERTAIN attacks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditional Taekwon-do uses the ball of the foot for roundhouses hicks.
TJA all use the ball of the for for roundhouse kicks.
Only time the top of the foot (instep) is used is when it is the "kin geri", which is a groin kick.
It MAY be used in the round ( not round house) kick at times, though the preferred area is the lower shin.
The toe is used in the front kick and in the "angled" sometimes called "triangle" kick to the inner thigh.

[Shaolinlueb]

you can say the same thing about the fists man
the fists is pretty fragile at beginning tooo

i was jsut about to say

You can make the same argument about the backfist. lol.

[YouKnowWho]

i was jsut about to say

You can make the same argument about the backfist. lol.
A Karate friend of mind broke his hand in a "ridge hand" strike.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A Karate friend of mind broke his hand in a "ridge hand" striking.

My old TKD instructor broke a "flying " brick with a ridge hand strike.

[Shaolinlueb]

my old TKD instructor broke a "flying monkey", with the back of his fist. :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

my old TKD instructor broke a "flying monkey", with the back of his fist. :eek:

My old TKD instructor once hit a guy so hard, he regained his virginity !

[Shaolinlueb]

My old TKD instructor once hit a guy so hard, he regained his virginity !


my old TKD isntructor once hit a lady so hard she gave birth to 10 kids, and she wasnt even pregor's!

[Shaolinlueb]

ok nvm, i never took TKD

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok nvm, i never took TKD

That much was obvious, given your lack of Kiyap !
A true TKD'ist would have known that only a jumping spinning reverse hook kick in the pike formation, could break a flying monkey.
Back fists are left for badgers, chipmunks and other assorted woodland creatures.

[bawang]

ok you know nothing everyone knows backfists are for fighting orangatangs and large marsupials
what a glorified kickboxer :mad: very angry face

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok you know nothing everyone knows backfists are for fighting orangatangs and large marsupials
what a glorified kickboxer :mad: very angry face

You Sir, have the boorish manners of a Yale man !
:mad:

[Hardwork108]

ok nvm, i never took TKD

Just as well as I heard it is a great art if you are only fighting ladies.:p

[Shaolinlueb]

Just as well as I heard it is a great art if you are only fighting ladies.:p

hahahahahaha oh man the epicness of this thread.

[bawang]

if i get to fight and touch sexy ladies ill take up taek won do right nao

[Shaolinlueb]

if i get to fight and touch sexy ladies ill take up taek won do right nao

seriously.

"i was only punching the targets, i swear!"

hahaha

[Lucas]

seriously.

"i was only punching the targets, i swear!"

hahaha

can they add some grappling to tkd ?

[GreenCloudCLF]

can they add some grappling to tkd ?
Might as well, since they don't do other types of fighting...