The Neglect of Senior Students

[SanHeChuan]

In any school run for profit there is a danger of the most senior students becoming neglected.

Public for profit schools, make their money and keep their doors open from the revolving door of students who fail to stay long enough to make any real impact on their training.

Leaving the number of students who make that initial "black belt" level few and far between. There limited number, means limited dollars, means limited time to spend with them.

Supposedly it is at this level that one has mastered the basics enough to begin their real training.

Yet most black belt students are given assistant instructor duties to keep them busy, and feed new forms after hours.

While instructing others is an excellent tool for improving your own skills, where is all this real training that's suppose to be had?

Where is the advanced application and fighting strategies, the deep understanding?

Most are left to try and discover on their own.

Who gets in to teaching to make a profit?
I thought It was to transmit the Art, for love of the game!

[mickey]

Hi,

What has been your experience?

mickey

[SanHeChuan]

In my mantis class, the teacher kept updating, changing, improving, the curriculum so that everyone always had a wealth of new material to learn. And there was a mix of material covered; form, application, sport, conditioning, ect. I felt that not all subjects got the attention they needed in 15 minute intervals, but you weren't left out.

In my Shorin ryu class, all you got was a few more forms, and your training was otherwise non-existent. Applications weren't taught/drilled.

In shaolin-do, you got a lot more forms, but applications were unknown to instructors, so they put out the figure it out for your self, part of the journey, line.
There wasn't much instruction to be had beyond forms anyway.

In judo there really wasn't a separation between ranks, so there was no loss for the black belt, just a continuum.

My current class, unknown.

[SPJ]

1. the largest crowds and profits are from the basic/beginner classes.

2. as the students advance, each may has his or her progress.

the teacher mainly serves as a guidance. the student would make most of the effort at his or her own pace.

3. nowadays, teachers make more money from selling books and dvd's. the school with students is kind of like a door or front. meaning most of money are from selling books and dvd's and not from tuitions.

come to think of it, everybody may buy your books and but not that many may live close to you and have time to attend your school for a considerable amount of time.

:)

[mickey]

SanheChuan,

You owe it to yourself to ask at your present location. Or find the school that matches your needs. To suck it up and tough it out does not serve to honor you if your present situation is not what you expect.

mickey

[mickey]

One of the most difficult challenges facing MAs out there is gong within. Some need that outside source and feel lost without it and this country (USA) seems to thrive on the perpetuation of dependancy. Some styles prepare their students for this journey while many do not. Going within is a very spiritual journey as well as a very rewarding one. Something for you to think on.

mickey

[Taryn P.]

I would call myself intermediate, and I'm still getting plenty out of the basic-level class. Even though we're doing many of the same things we did on my very first day, in each class I am able to refine the techniques a bit more and get something into it that wasn't there before. If I feel I'm not being challenged enough, there's always the option to lower that horse stance another few inches!

Helping more junior students can also be a real learning experience in itself.

I admit to being a bit frustrated right now at not being able to get one on one time with my primary teacher. I feel that I'm at the level now where I need to start seriously digging into some more specialized material. I know what I want to work on, but it's not stuff we can really do in the general class (which for some weird reason does not always revolve around my personal agenda... :rolleyes: ) I'm very fortunate to be able to get one on one time with another teacher, who is also very good.... but I'd sure like to get MORE.

More senior students can sometimes be a good resource. They are sometimes willing to give you time, and you can milk them for anything they know that you don't.

[Pork Chop]

Seen this before.
Have even seen this in a sport gym before, but it was one of those situations where the students had picked up almost everything the coach had to teach and just needed more experience to be moving forward (or a better coach).

The solution to this is multiple instructors.
In schools I've seen, someone who's got a solid grasp of the basics takes time to get the new folks started, while more advanced students work directly under the teacher.

[TenTigers]

the solution is for the teacher to never have thought he has "reached the top of the mountain," and to always be continuing to learn and grow. This way, he is still evolving, and will always have a great deal to bring to his students.
"You don't stop improving until they put the nail in your coffin."

[yu shan]

Absolutely Ten Tigers, see my sig. IMO and from I can see the training is perpetual.

SanHeChuan, your experience in shaolin-do is exactly what I went thru in my years of training in Wah Lum to the T.

[EarthDragon]

Each school is different, I am just the opposite.........I put more time into the students that have proven themselves and I know are going to stick around for a very long time.
My top student has been with me for 12 years... he gets the most attnetion and information. Why bother to put your heart and soul into a newbie as 90% of them will quit within the first year....

[GreenCloudCLF]

I don't feel this is the case. I think that some senior students feel they are ready to progress, but their instructor feels they still need work on the wealth of material that was given to them.

It's hard to be really good at a ton of material, and then expect more. Your instructor will teach you what you are ready for. If you doubt this you are in the wrong place.

[xcakid]

In my last 2 kwoons, and my current one, the sr. student actually got more class time. Classes were split up beginner, intermediate and advanced(black belts). The intermediate can go to the beg, the black belts can go to the beg and int classes.

In my current kwoon, sifu teaches all the black belt instructors as well as the asst. intructor private lessons. We in turn teach students private lesson. The intermediate group class is taught by senior black belts and the advanced group class is always taught by sifu.

Guess I've bee lucky.

[YouKnowWho]

"You don't stop improving until they put the nail in your coffin."
After you have reached a certain age, you may want to change the word "improving" into "maintaining". If you can still do 20 tornado kicks none stop at your age of 80 then you should be very proud of yourself even if you may not still have the speed, height, and flexibility as when you were 20 years old.

[Reverend Tap]

After you have reached a certain age, you may want to change the word "improving" into "maintaining". If you can still do 20 tornado kicks none stop at your age of 80 then you should be very proud of yourself even if you may not still have the speed, height, and flexibility as when you were 20 years old.

You should still be learning, though, shouldn't you?

"Improving" doesn't necessarily only mean getting stronger and faster.

[YouKnowWho]

You should still be learning, though, shouldn't you?

"Improving" doesn't necessarily only mean getting stronger and faster.
What do you think the "improving" mean? Something on your body (be able to do) or something in your head (know how to do)? Do you want to go back to school to get your PhD degree when you are 70 years old? If you do then why?

If you have run Marathon all your life then do you want to maintain your running ability, or you want to start bicycling at your age of 70?

[Reverend Tap]

What do you think the "improving" mean? Something on your body (be able to do) or something in your head (know how to do)? Do you want to go back to school to get your PhD degree when you are 70 years old? If you do then why?

If you have run Marathon all your life then do you want to maintain your running ability, or you want to start bicycling at your age of 70?

I want to keep learning no matter what, and if I'm not learning new things right up until I die then I'm doing something wrong with my life.

Talking specifically about MA, I improve when I get stronger and faster and whatnot, but I also improve when I get smarter about it and improve my understanding.

Thus, maintaining one's level of physical ability while improving one's understanding is improving overall.