Hard Bridge (Arm) Wing Chun

[jack]

http://www.56.com/u37/v_NDA2OTI4MTA.html

Wing Chun was created by a nun called Wu Mei. Many of its earlier practitioners were related to southern chinese opera group, commonly known as 红船 'red boat'. The common art learned by them was the Hong Quan (Hung Kuen). Wing Chun was influenced & later became 'hard' & powerful.

Indeed 梁二娣, 黄華寳, 大花面錦 were all from red boat.

[Iron-Man]

I take it you read 'Wu Mei' secret autobiography ?

[jack]

That is some of the contents which the kungfu master in the vid is trying to introduce the history of his hard bridge wing chun.

Wu Mei; 五枚 was also known as Ng Mui - she was the legendary creator of wing chun (Ving Tsun).

黄華寳 was Wong Wah Bo. 梁二娣 was Leung Yee Tei.

http://www.vingtsun.org.hk/

[jack]

These are the hard wing chun vcds found on the internet.


http://www.langlang.cc/Movie.aspx?kwd=%C1%D6%D0%C0&image.x=42&image.y=11

[clam61]

i disagree with wing chun becoming powerful.

a common misconception about the terms soft and hard when referring to styles

soft does not mean there is no effort or strength to the movements. soft style refers to the motions being continuous and fluid. western boxing is a soft style. karate has a lot of starts and stops. karate is a hard style.

wing chun practitioners being relaxed does not mean they hit weakly and not 'powerful' as hung quan practitioners. it means wing chun practitioners focus on relaxing the whole body, except for the muscles that they need to use to move. they isolate those muscles only when performing the movement

[t_niehoff]

The Ng Mui story is a nice allegory.

As far as the hard-soft terminology goes, IMO it has nothing to do with "fluidity" -- that is a characteristic of any good athlete, including fighters. From my perspective, the terms "hard" (gong in cantonese, go in japanese) and "soft" (yao in cantonese, ju in japanese), while they can pertain to qualities, refer specifically to methodology. That is, gong (hard) refers to striking (impact) and yau (soft) refers to grappling (attached action). Hence the kuit Yee Yao Jai Gong (Use soft to overcome hard) refers to using grappling or attached actions to stop him from striking; the kuit Gong Yao Ping Yung -(Hard and soft combine in use) refers to WCK's method of controlling (grappling) while striking. That's why WCK can be called a soft boxing method (or clinch/attached boxing method).

This is similar to ju (soft) referring to grappling in japanese styles (judo, goju karate, for examples) and go referring to striking methods.

[Hendrik]

According to signature evidence in this video, IMHO, this type of combinational practice of the set he is doing doesnt work well....

Thus, any one learn this better off learning Hung Gar.

[Hendrik]

the kuit Gong Yao Ping Yung -(Hard and soft combine in use) refers to WCK's method of controlling (grappling) while striking.

That's why WCK can be called a soft boxing method (or clinch/attached boxing method). .




This is not what the Chinese means.

[t_niehoff]

This is not what the Chinese means.

Do you speak for all chinese now? ;)

FWIW, the characters (for "hard" and "soft") have the same meaning in chinese and japanese.

It has been my experience that regardless of the language, two different people can hear the same terms, see the same characters, see the same movement, have the same kuit, etc. and have two entirely different explanations/interpretations? Why? Because they have different experience. We interpret those terms, those characters, based on our experience. And fighters interpret the terms based on their experience fighting while nonfighters -- even if they are chinese -- based on their experience, i.e., fantasy.

In the martial (fighting) arts, no one can tell what the movements, the terms, the kuit., etc. REALLY mean -- since there is no objective meaning but only the meaning we give them -- except by and through application (fighting). There and only there can you see if your "understanding" has validity.

[Hendrik]

Do you speak for all chinese now? ;)

FWIW, the characters (for "hard" and "soft") have the same meaning in chinese and japanese.

It has been my experience that regardless of the language, two different people can hear the same terms, see the same characters, see the same movement, have the same kuit, etc. and have two entirely different explanations/interpretations? Why? Because they have different experience. We interpret those terms, those characters, based on our experience. And fighters interpret the terms based on their experience fighting while nonfighters -- even if they are chinese -- based on their experience, i.e., fantasy.






Good specualtion.

The issue is you dont know the language.







In the martial (fighting) arts, no one can tell what the movements, the terms, the kuit., etc. REALLY mean -- since there is no objective meaning but only the meaning we give them -- except by and through application (fighting). There and only there can you see if your "understanding" has validity.




Another self proclaim expert.

In Chinese there is a special phrase for this. It is Called Yee Monk Yin Monk or using a blind leading blind.




Let's not go off topic and wasting bandwidth of the others.

[Liddel]

Good specualtion.
The issue is you dont know the language
Another self proclaim expert.

The irony is i think you dont get where he's comming from cause your england aint so good LOL

Round and round we go :o


Let's not go off topic and wasting bandwidth of the others

you could help save some bandwidth by not using

So




Many





Spaces




:(




DREW

[Hardwork108]

As far as the hard-soft terminology goes, IMO it has nothing to do with "fluidity"

It has to do with fluidity and many other things as well, eg. sensitivity.


-- that is a characteristic of any good athlete, including fighters.

Sticking with fighters, what may be regarded as fluid or soft in a given karate style may be regarded as hard by a kung fu stylist.



From my perspective, the terms "hard" (gong in cantonese, go in japanese) and "soft" (yao in cantonese, ju in japanese), while they can pertain to qualities, refer specifically to methodology. That is, gong (hard) refers to striking (impact) and yau (soft) refers to grappling (attached action).

You are making the wrong assumption.

Soft can refer to a manner of striking just as hard can refer to the manner one grapples. There are principles involved that you do not seem to be aware of and that is fine (and no surprise either) as you don't even pretend to practice traditional kung fu.


Hence the kuit Yee Yao Jai Gong (Use soft to overcome hard) refers to using grappling or attached actions to stop him from striking;

Yet you can use soft to overcome hard without using grappling techniques!


the kuit Gong Yao Ping Yung -(Hard and soft combine in use) refers to WCK's method of controlling (grappling) while striking. That's why WCK can be called a soft boxing method (or clinch/attached boxing method).

I think that you have grasped at best a small part of the "Wing Chun Story".

You can be soft or hard while grappling.

You can be soft or hard while striking.

You can be soft or hard while blocking.

If you grasp the above points then you will be closer to understanding the kung fu approach.


This is similar to ju (soft) referring to grappling in japanese styles (judo, goju karate, for examples) and go referring to striking methods.

The fact that Karate is influenced by Chinese kung fu (eventhough it seems apparent that the Chinese held back a lot of information regarding the higher aspects of training), would suggest that even their (Japanese) definitions of "hard" and "soft" are not as black and white as you suggest.

[Hendrik]

Why is this lineage is called Hard Bridge?



What is hard?

Brute force?
Non continous?




What is the consequence when a set such as SLT being done via a brute force way?

[Hardwork108]

Why is this lineage is called Hard Bridge?



What is hard?

Brute force?
Non continous?




What is the consequence when a set such as SLT being done via a brute force way?

I don't know why this lineage is called hard bridge. I doubt that this is a hard (as in say, Shotokan karate) style of Wing Chun eventhough his movements may look a little "hard".

To really know this style's "hardness" or "softness" one would need to touch hands with someone who practices this style of Wing Chun, I suppose. Only by contact will one be able to feel the softness/hardness and sensitivity of a kung fu exponent.

I also don't think that this style is about brute force. I may be wrong but I don't think that there are that many kung fu styles that use only brute force as I believe that there are internal elements in most if not all kung fu styles.

If one practices the SLT set with brute force then IMHO, one will get almost nothing out of it.

[Hendrik]

I don't know why this lineage is called hard bridge. I doubt that this is a hard (as in say, Shotokan karate) style of Wing Chun eventhough his movements may look a little "hard".

To really know this style's "hardness" or "softness" one would need to touch hands with someone who practices this style of Wing Chun, I suppose. Only by contact will one be able to feel the softness/hardness and sensitivity of a kung fu exponent.

I also don't think that this style is about brute force. I may be wrong but I don't think that there are that many kung fu styles that use only brute force as I believe that there are internal elements in most if not all kung fu styles.

If one practices the SLT set with brute force then IMHO, one will get almost nothing out of it.


I can be deadly wrong.


IMHHHO, all these hard, soft, brute.... could be seen. Dont need to touch hand...etc

just for technical discussion, the demonstrator is unconciously hold up the qi flow of certain part of his hand/arm, thinking holding it he got power but he is doing the exactly opposite.



Because the Qi is hold in a certain part , he is force to use brute force to manual his physical. since it is brute force, which is similar to one leg stepping the break and the other stepping the gas. The brute force cannot emmiting outward, thus, it cannot become Jin.


Thus, IMHO, this is a dead art or solid using brute force type of art.




Soft true Soft needs to rely on Qi and medirian to cultivate. Hard true hard also needs Qi and medirian to cultivate it. Soft as whip and Hard as explosive. Any part of the body if hold, soft become wimpy and hard became brute force.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqSulR9Fymg&feature=related

Look at the finger of the pianist above, the shen and qi in those hands are active and alive. That is an expression of the Gong Yao Ping Yung or Hard and soft combine in use.

The fingers are Sensitive (soft) enough to identify the location, agile to walk around the keys, the control weight needed, and strong (hard) enough to spring out for explosive "hammering/ typing". Jin is that focus typing hitting the piano key.

Gong Yao Ping Yung is an expression of the Dynamic state.




Thus, I have read from the Ancient acestors's note.

Within Physical, Qi and Shen can be seen. Within Qi Physical can be known. Withing Shen the full story has been planted. when feeling is at its advance, feeling becomes KNOWing. Then, Chi Sau is no longer needed because one just know --- as it is said USing Silence to lead action.


Art is Art. Blending and mixing blindly without soul will not take the art too far.
Art is Art, there must be life, elegant, and beauty in it.

Thus, a good art is similar to Windflowers that will carry one away to another dimension and one practice it for a life time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BnjfIGPek&feature=related


Just some thought.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The specific word
刚柔并中 certainly does not mean controlling (grappling) while striking

One doesnt need 1000 years of science to know this, one just needs basic chinese language studies. Its a chinese term we are talking about, talking japanese is off topic.

WCK is not soft because of grappling. Its an internal art, meaning chi, jing, shen which you dont believe in.

This 刚柔并中 chinese word is a TCM commonly used term, in which you claim billions of chinese were wrong about. Its one thing to insult my entire culture and billions of my forefathers, comrades in their qi practices implying them to be idiots, its another to add your nonsense to our language.

In fact, since they were so wrong, how do you know the WCK you learnt was right? :confused: If billions of chinese passed were wrong, and billions now who do TCM still for health, compared to millions of Wingchun people, the chances of wingchun being all wrong is greater.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think the tendancy here is to read way too much into it. The differences are not so philosophical as made out to be. It is a simple difference in technique preferances. Tan sao is soft, bill sao is hard. Hard is meeting force with force, soft if meeting force with soft. The difference is between deflecting and redirecting as opposed to forcefully blocking. And the differences can be ever so subtle.

[Hendrik]

I think the tendancy here is to read way too much into it. The differences are not so philosophical as made out to be.

It is a simple difference in technique preferances.

Tan sao is soft, bill sao is hard. Hard is meeting force with force, soft if meeting force with soft. The difference is between deflecting and redirecting as opposed to forcefully blocking. And the differences can be ever so subtle.



Tan Sao is Soft? Bill Sao is hard?

Meeting force with soft? what is soft?

[Hendrik]

The specific word
刚柔并中 certainly does not mean controlling (grappling) while striking

One doesnt need 1000 years of science to know this, one just needs basic chinese language studies. Its a chinese term we are talking about, talking japanese is off topic.

WCK is not soft because of grappling. Its an internal art, meaning chi, jing, shen which you dont believe in.

This 刚柔并中 chinese word is a TCM commonly used term, in which you claim billions of chinese were wrong about. Its one thing to insult my entire culture and billions of my forefathers, comrades in their qi practices implying them to be idiots, its another to add your nonsense to our language.

In fact, since they were so wrong, how do you know the WCK you learnt was right? :confused: If billions of chinese passed were wrong, and billions now who do TCM still for health, compared to millions of Wingchun people, the chances of wingchun being all wrong is greater.



刚柔并用 is a part of Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit under the 練法 (Training handling methodology)

眼對手 手對心 手從心發 , 一絲不苟….. 刚柔并用 ...


Very specific.. and details.

certainly not Japanese related.
certainly does not mean controlling (grappling) while striking.

[Iron-Man]

Tan sao is soft, bill sao is hard. Hard is meeting force with force, soft if meeting force with soft.

Strange Quote ????

Why would a Tan be soft and a Bil be hard ? They both do exactly the same thing only at different heights and they both cut in (deflect) at an angle. So if timed right or not as the case may be they should almost be identical but for the fact that we are using a different combination of muscles.

Rather like intercepting any projectile the force is greatest in front of it and so its rather surprising IMO to hear that a Bil would be 'Hard' unless it was used against a angled hacking strike.

[t_niehoff]

In ANY language, terms have different meanings for non-martial artists (Hendrik's generic "chinese"), for people engaged in the fantasy part of martial arts, and for fighters. For example, to use an english term, consider the term "sensitivity." To people outside of the martial arts, it has a certain meaning (I even have had nonmartial artists ask me why we'd want to increase our sensitivity since that would mean we would feel more pain!). With fantasy martial artists, you get widespread nonsense (stuff like "feeling your opponent's energy or intention"). And with fighters, you get something else. Who is riight? It depends on your perspective. And it is the same for "hard" and "soft" (gong/go and yau/ju).

Some of you don't like my connecting "soft" (yau/ju) with grappling (even though the terms are connected in arts like judo and jujitsu). Well, int he same way, as I see it, sensitivity also pertain to grappling or attached fighting (or however you want to describe it sustained contact). Strikers don't need sensitivity. That's why boxers and kickboxers don't discuss it, train it, etc. And they can reach worldclass performance level without sensitivity. But it is something that interests grapplers. What is sensitivity? From a grappler's/fighter's perspective, it is timing based on tactile sense. So if your art/method is concerned with "sensitivity", then it involves grappling or sustained contact.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What misconceptions there are going on here !!! :eek:

"tan is soft, bil is hard, wing chun is internal - no, it's external, blah, blah, blah..."

In real time, real fighting...and while using wing chun, you throw ALL the moves, be they strikes, blocks, parries, ie.- punches, kicks, palm strikes, tan, bil, garn, bong, pak, etc...

WITH SERIOUS INTENT.

And ready to tighten your muscles right at (or somtimes immediately before) impact...

and ready to go "soft" as you FEEL the consequences of "impact"....meaning this: for example, you throw a punch as I described...

he not only blocks it but he also starts to "crash" directly into your space while going for you directly....you might recover/transition your punch into a bong sao that redirects his force (along with some footwork and a twist at the hips)...

or perhaps you go "soft" by disengaging your punching arm completely and strike on a different line with the same hand.

And the cultivation of this kind of quick transitioning from attack to defense (or perhaps from one form of defense to another form of defense, as in going from tan sao to jut sao, or from pak sao to jut sao)...

is one of the biggest benefits of chi sao, when done properly.

[jack]

This is the intro on the vcd cover of the hard style wing chun.

小练头是泳春拳中的初级套路.在硬门咏春中,小练头有两种练法:练功法与练技法.练功法是一种绷紧的慢练, 力求给练习都通过"紧"的练习,增强功力和耐力;练技法则是通过一种"松"练而使 练习者的手法流畅熟练,然后再发劲.小练头是啷春拳功力和劲力的来源,掌握其中要点,对练好咏春拳有极大好 处. Wiu nim to (xiao lian tou)is the fundamental routine of wing chun(yongchun).in hard wing chun,there are two ways of practicing siu nim tao:practice strength and practice skills.strength practicing is tight and slow movements which bies the practitioners"light"practice to improve their strength and stamina;skill practicing is "loose"practice which enables the practitioners get familiar with the tact and then give out strength.siu nim tao is the foundationor"seed"of the force of wing chun.it is very helpful for practicing wing chun to master the key of this routine.

[CFT]

Interesting discussion. A few very thought provoking posts from Terence. I'm not a CMA scholar but I don't think that the terms gong/yau, go/ju as used by CMA and JMA divides into striking and grappling. I think they apply to the whole endeavour whether striking or grappling.

That said, I agree that the use of yau/ju is more evident in grappling. However I have heard the term "explosive power" used in grappling/judo contexts too.

Question to Victor and others: "If one punches with intent and commitment, can one really "interrupt" the action with a redirection/delinking with any degree of effectiveness"? I just question whether one can really punch 100% in the first place if you always reserve the option of changing the motion.

[t_niehoff]

Interesting discussion. A few very thought provoking posts from Terence. I'm not a CMA scholar but I don't think that the terms gong/yau, go/ju as used by CMA and JMA divides into striking and grappling. I think they apply to the whole endeavour whether striking or grappling.


Chee, I think the terms "hard" and "soft" can apply descriptively (as I said in my first post, "while they can pertain to qualities"), but in terms of methodology they are associated with striking and grappling, respectively. Just as sensitivity is associated with grappling, not striking. (Who strikes "softly"?).



That said, I agree that the use of yau/ju is more evident in grappling. However I have heard the term "explosive power" used in grappling/judo contexts too.


This goes back to the methodolgy vs. descriptive issue.



Question to Victor and others: "If one punches with intent and commitment, can one really "interrupt" the action with a redirection/delinking with any degree of effectiveness"? I just question whether one can really punch 100% in the first place if you always reserve the option of changing the motion.

Of course you can't.

[Hendrik]

This is the intro on the vcd cover of the hard style wing chun.

小练头是泳春拳中的初级套路.在硬门咏春中,小练头有两种练法:练功法与练技法.练功法是一种绷紧的慢练, 力求给练习都通过"紧"的练习,增强功力和耐力;练技法则是通过一种"松"练而使 练习者的手法流畅熟练,然后再发劲.小练头是啷春拳功力和劲力的来源,掌握其中要点,对练好咏春拳有极大好 处. Wiu nim to (xiao lian tou)is the fundamental routine of wing chun(yongchun).


in hard wing chun,there are two ways of practicing siu nim tao:


practice strength and practice skills.


strength practicing is tight and slow movements which bies the practitioners"light"practice to improve their strength and stamina;


skill practicing is "loose"practice which enables the practitioners get familiar with the tact and then give out strength.


siu nim tao is the foundationor"seed"of the force of wing chun.it is very helpful for practicing wing chun to master the key of this routine.



IMHHHHHHO,
The issue is the demonstrator doesnt show the claim result ability in his video.

So the ideas of broken into tense and loose becomes wishful thoughts.

The ideas are something seems to be totally logical but doesnt make sense in real training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Quote:
Question to Victor and others: "If one punches with intent and commitment, can one really "interrupt" the action with a redirection/delinking with any degree of effectiveness"? I just question whether one can really punch 100% in the first place if you always reserve the option of changing the motion. (CFT)



***Of course you can't. (Terence)

...................................


***TERENCE is quite simply WRONG about this; and after reading hundreds of his posts over the years I claim the right to make a judgment and say, quite categorically...that he doesn't have enough wing chun knowledge and skill to be on the right side of the answer.

If your arms are relaxed while throwing a punch (even though your fist itself may be closed and pretty tight)...but the muscles in the arm are actually in a relatively relaxed state as you throw the punch...

and only to be clenched tight at (or just before) impact...YOU WILL STILL HAVE the inner kinetic sense to be able to make a very quick adjustment and transition to another move very quickly if need be.

Have been doing this kind of thing for years, and I know other wing chun people who can do the same thing.

[Hendrik]

In ANY language, terms have different meanings for non-martial artists (Hendrik's generic "chinese"), .



"Hendrik's generic "Chinese""

hahaha all but argue and twisting words..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting discussion. A few very thought provoking posts from Terence. I'm not a CMA scholar but I don't think that the terms gong/yau, go/ju as used by CMA and JMA divides into striking and grappling. I think they apply to the whole endeavour whether striking or grappling.

That said, I agree that the use of yau/ju is more evident in grappling. However I have heard the term "explosive power" used in grappling/judo contexts too.

Question to Victor and others: "If one punches with intent and commitment, can one really "interrupt" the action with a redirection/delinking with any degree of effectiveness"? I just question whether one can really punch 100% in the first place if you always reserve the option of changing the motion.

The JMA view of "JU" referring to grappling" and Go to striking is not new, it is prevelant in many systems, Shorinji kempo being one.
But like every rule, there are exceptions.
Sometimes GO will refer to straigth strikes while JU will refer to circular strikes.
Tomatoe/tomahtoe type of thing really.
Different systems will stress the concepts in different ways.

As for delivering a strike with 100% intention, well, very few do that as it is, but many of us to come close.
I recall on "test" done at a seminar a while back.
The person punching was told to punch the pad as fast and hard as he could, then he was told to punch it as if there was a gum pointed to his head and he had to punch through a wall or be killed ( he punched much harder), then he was told to envison someone trying to rape/kill his wife/child, etc and he punched even harder.

[t_niehoff]

A large part of the problem has to do with the speed of a punch (for instance) that is thrown with full power and so at top speed. If you do a bit of research into the area of psycho-motor performance, you'll see that some movements happen too fast for our cognitive control oncethose movements begin. The human refractory period - the time it takes to make a cognitive change in movement - is around 200 ms, whereas a boxer's punch takes about 90 ms. (These numbers are from Trew & Everett's 'Human Movement", p. 134). So once you have started to punch, it will finish before you can change your mind.

And if you stop to think about it, this is why boxers are able to slip, duck, and otherwise evade punches.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A large part of the problem has to do with the speed of a punch (for instance) that is thrown with full power and so at top speed. If you do a bit of research into the area of psycho-motor performance, you'll see that some movements happen too fast for our cognitive control oncethose movements begin. The human refractory period - the time it takes to make a cognitive change in movement - is around 200 ms, whereas a boxer's punch takes about 90 ms. (These numbers are from Trew & Everett's 'Human Movement", p. 134). So once you have started to punch, it will finish before you can change your mind.

And if you stop to think about it, this is why boxers are able to slip, duck, and otherwise evade punches.

T is correct on this, IF one does punch with full commitment, it is virtually impossible to "change" it in anyway other than "going with it" and even then...

[chusauli]

Gang and Rou is not necessarily hard and soft, rather but firm and flexible.

I often make a joke:

It is akin to a male erection - too hard and it will crack off, like a diamond - too brittle. Too soft and it means you need Viagra.

If it has both qualities, you're doing okay.

Is WCK a set of firm arms? :confused:

[t_niehoff]

Gang and Rou is not necessarily hard and soft, rather but firm and flexible.

I often make a joke:

It is akin to a male erection - too hard and it will crack off, like a diamond - too brittle. Too soft and it means you need Viagra.

If it has both qualities, you're doing okay.

Is WCK a set of firm arms? :confused:

So by your definition "judo" (as ju=rou) would be the way of flexibility. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

So by your definition "judo" (as ju=rou) would be the way of flexibility. ;)

Well, the term, as I am sure you know, "JU" in judo is defined as "pliable" to "give way", to not "meet head on", the be "flexible" under attack.

[chusauli]

So by your definition "judo" (as ju=rou) would be the way of flexibility. ;)

Yes, the flexible way...is that not what it is? :)

[t_niehoff]

Well, the term, as I am sure you know, "JU" in judo is defined as "pliable" to "give way", to not "meet head on", the be "flexible" under attack.

Yes, of course. Or even "gentle".

I was trying to make the subtle point that arguing over which synonym (hard or firm, soft or flexible, pliable or gentle) is a better translation of the character really isn't the point.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, of course. Or even "gentle".

I was trying to make the subtle point that arguing over which synonym (hard or firm, soft or flexible, pliable or gentle) is a better translation of the character really isn't the point.

Add to that how a Japanese character, for example, can "say" one thing and mean a bunch of different things, as in the case of "JU" or "GO".

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes, Paul/sanjuro...if one punches with FULL commitment (all muscles are tensed) from the inception of the movement - it is basically impossible to change the move while it's traveling to the target.

If, on the other hand, one throws the punch the way I described it before...it can be done.

And as a matter of fact, we filmed some stuff this past Saturday at my school that I intend to post on youtube within the next week or so that covers this material.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, Paul/sanjuro...if one punches with FULL commitment (all muscles are tensed) from the inception of the movement - it is basically impossible to change the move while it's traveling to the target.

If, on the other hand, one throws the punch the way I described it before...it can be done.

And as a matter of fact, we filmed some stuff this past Saturday at my school that I intend to post on youtube within the next week or so that covers this material.

Not sure that even the way you describe it, that one can "put on the brakes" sort of speaking

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's not so much "putting the brakes on" as it is a fast transition to another move after your blow has hit resistance (as in the opponent blocks or throws a redirecting parry type move in response to your punch).

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not so much "putting the brakes on" as it is a fast transition to another move after your blow has hit resistance (as in the opponent blocks or throws a redirecting parry type move in response to your punch).

Hmm, well, in THAT regard, I agree, we can use the "recoil" when our strike meets resistence, that is different,

[Hendrik]

Hmm, well, in THAT regard, I agree, we can use the "recoil" when our strike meets resistence, that is different,

How is your structure adapt in that recoil?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Tan Sao is Soft? Bill Sao is hard?

Meeting force with soft? what is soft?

Ok, so I didn't put so well, but you know what I am refering to. It doesn't have to be so difficult to understand. Force is met with force, or force is met by redirecting it. It can be forceful either way, but again, you know full well what I am saying. That is the simple difference between hard and soft gung fu. The difference is I am putting it into plain words rather than trying to sound like a grand master of BS.

[t_niehoff]

Yes, Paul/sanjuro...if one punches with FULL commitment (all muscles are tensed) from the inception of the movement - it is basically impossible to change the move while it's traveling to the target.

If, on the other hand, one throws the punch the way I described it before...it can be done.

And as a matter of fact, we filmed some stuff this past Saturday at my school that I intend to post on youtube within the next week or so that covers this material.

It has nothing to do with whether your muscles are tensed but the speed of the movement.

Victor, ealier on this thread you wrote:

"***TERENCE is quite simply WRONG about this; and after reading hundreds of his posts over the years I claim the right to make a judgment and say, quite categorically...that he doesn't have enough wing chun knowledge and skill to be on the right side of the answer."

And now you seem to be saying that Terence was quite simply correct about this! -- particularly after I presented the scientific info regarding the refractory period and time it takes to punch. Aren't you glad that at least one of us (me) had enough "wing chun knowledge and skill to be on the right side of the answer." ;)

So, NOW, you're saying that if you don't throw a punch with full power and full speed, but use less than full power/speed, you can change/alter your movement. Well, yes you can -- if your movement takes more time than the refractory period, that's possible depending on some other factors, like momentum,balance, etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've made my points, Terence - and I stand by them.

I think I've learned by now not to CONTINUE arguing/debating with someone (ie.- you) who will never stand corrected, even though he may be completely wrong.

So I'm done commenting on this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How is your structure adapt in that recoil?

Do you mean to ask how DOES my structure adapt to recoil?
It adapts very well :D

[m1k3]

Yes, Paul/sanjuro...if one punches with FULL commitment (all muscles are tensed) from the inception of the movement

I'm not sure what you mean by this Vic.:confused:

When I learned some boxing, a long time ago, I was taught to keep the arms relaxed. Kind of like swatting a fly or snapping a towel.

So, if you could would you explain what you mean by this?

Thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its actually impossible to launch any strike or any movement, without muscular tension, the muscles need to work to accomplish the movement.
Its HOW they work they is the kicker.
Not so much tension in the arm but tension everywhere else that slows the move and makes it stiff and ridgid.
Pretty much everyone is taught to "tense" at the end of the strike, though those that fight moving targets kind of learn to tense DURING the "flight", for obvious reasons.

[Hardwork108]

"Hendrik's generic "Chinese""

hahaha all but argue and twisting words..

Don't worry too much about what Terrence says as he does not really practice Wing Chun. You could refer to his "Wing Chun" as "modified" MMA.

[Hardwork108]

And T_Niehoff, please stop insulting the whole of the Chinese martial arts community, past and present, with your uninsightfull posts.

You have just scratched the surface of Wing Chun and then gone on to MMA. That is your limit!

You are no Steve Morris and even his stories are full of disputable information.

As always, if you are happy with what you do then that is fine but your posts are dare I say in "fantasy" land territory every time you make your uninformed criticisms of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and their concepts.

[t_niehoff]

I've made my points, Terence - and I stand by them.

I think I've learned by now not to CONTINUE arguing/debating with someone (ie.- you) who will never stand corrected, even though he may be completely wrong.

So I'm done commenting on this.

Oh, I've been wrong about many things and I will admit it. My views on WCK continue to grow and evolve as I do (as my skills do) -- after all, our understanding is directly related to the level of our skill. And I'm not tied to any "party line." All it takes to get me to change my mind is SOUND evidence and reason -- as that is what led me to my conclusions in the first place. Too bad so few do similarly.

[m1k3]

Its actually impossible to launch any strike or any movement, without muscular tension, the muscles need to work to accomplish the movement.
Its HOW they work they is the kicker.
Not so much tension in the arm but tension everywhere else that slows the move and makes it stiff and ridgid.
Pretty much everyone is taught to "tense" at the end of the strike, though those that fight moving targets kind of learn to tense DURING the "flight", for obvious reasons.

I agree, I was referring to UWC'S comment
if one punches with FULL commitment (all muscles are tensed) from the inception of the movement.

If all muscles are tensed you would look like one of those bodybuilders up on the stage.

To do any move correctly you have to have tension moving through the muscles doing the movement and you want the antagonistic muscles to be a relaxed as possible. Tensing your bicep while throwing a straight punch would be counter productive.

[t_niehoff]

And T_Niehoff, please stop insulting the whole of the Chinese martial arts community, past and present, with your uninsightfull posts.


Stop living in a fantasy world.



You have just scratched the surface of Wing Chun and then gone on to MMA. That is your limit!


Ah, yes, this is one of the common ploys the fantasy guys use: there are depths to this fill-in-the-blank that you are unaware. Bullsh1t. It's easy to convince me -- just let's see it work, whatever it is, against competent fighters. How difficult is that? All functional martial artists (BJJ, MT, boxers, MMA, judo, wrestlers, etc.) can do that at the drop of a hat. Why is it that only the guys who make those sorts of claims can never produce any evidence to suppor them? Well, the answer is obvious: all that stuff they believe is beneath the surface is fantasy.



You are no Steve Morris and even his stories are full of disputable information.


I will be the first to admit I am no Steve Morris. But I am a fan. If I were in the UK, I'd be training with him. As it is, I have some of his training modules. But I'm jealous of the people I know who've been able to train with him personally (Nick, Alan, etc.). He is someone who I think has his head screwed on right, has a lot of great experience, and knows what he is talking about. While I don't agree with him on everything, he is not a theoretical nonfighter.



As always, if you are happy with what you do then that is fine but your posts are dare I say in "fantasy" land territory every time you make your uninformed criticisms of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and their concepts.

TCMA has many significant problems: the learning/training method it uses is poor and produces poor results; much of it is fantasy-based; it is mainly practiced and taught by people who have no real martial/fighting skill; and, the "concepts" for the most part are really just the preconceptions of people who can't fight on how to apply their martial art. It's really sad. You can either recognize this and try to do something about it or flop around in the muck of fantasy (and like some people, try to make money off the muckers).

[Hendrik]

TCMA has many significant problems:

the learning/training method it uses is poor and produces poor results; much of it is fantasy-based;


it is mainly practiced and taught by people who have no real martial/fighting skill;

and, the "concepts" for the most part are really just the preconceptions of people who can't fight on how to apply their martial art. .



Great!

youtube yourself and show us here how is your stuffs better then TCMA?


Also please show us your real martial /fighting skill.

since you mention:

"it is mainly practiced and taught by people who have no real martial/fighting skill;"

[Hendrik]

Do you mean to ask how DOES my structure adapt to recoil?
It adapts very well :D



I ask how not How Well.

[t_niehoff]

Great!

youtube yourself and show us here how is your stuffs better then TCMA?


Also please show us your real martial /fighting skill.

since you mention:

"it is mainly practiced and taught by people who have no real martial/fighting skill;"

How could any single person ever show how what they do is better "stuffs" than all TCMA? No matter what that person would show, you fantasy guys would always come back with the rejoinder that his competition just wasn't a good example of TCMA -- there will always be some phantom master with the real goods. Instead, why don't you show me the TCMA fighters that also haven't trained with the modern training methods that have proved they can hold their own against competent fighters? You can't because there aren't any.

The evidence BTW doesn't come from a single case but from all the evidence. We know how good athletes train, we know how good fighters train, and they don't train like TCMAists. If you want evidence of how to best train to fight, look at how good, proven fighters really do train (they all use the same basic method), and listen to what good proven fight trainers do. This isn't rocket science -- you don't become a better golfer or better fighter by listening to poor golfers or poor fighters tell you what to do.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Its actually impossible to launch any strike or any movement, without muscular tension, the muscles need to work to accomplish the movement.
Its HOW they work they is the kicker.
Not so much tension in the arm but tension everywhere else that slows the move and makes it stiff and ridgid.
Pretty much everyone is taught to "tense" at the end of the strike, though those that fight moving targets kind of learn to tense DURING the "flight", for obvious reasons.

This is true only for Martial artist who use Lik 力, Strength for their techniques, hence muscular tension

However there are higher levels, Jing 勁, then Qi 氣, and then Shen 神 . All these are guided by Yi(intent) 意

Some insult the chinese people and culture that created WCK even though they learn WCK, my sifu would say sometimes 教會弟子 没有师傅- once you teach a student everything, he will not respect the Sifu. Some people should never have been taught chinese martial arts in the first place.
尊師重道, respect the teacher/ancestors and the way/culture. Without this, there can be no real breakthrough in skills or character. Even if you were the best fighter, without Mo Dak your inner cultivation, is nothing. That is, in chinese MA, the most important skill. MMA, K1, UFC, Lei Tei, Competition, Fame, Ego is not the highest level. Chinese MA, talks about personal cultivation, the biggest opponent is yourself, mind, body, spirit.

Master Ip Man in his Kuen Kuit said, internally train 1 breath of qi 氣, externally train the bones and tendons. He was a famous fighter

Master Wang Xiang Zhai, Yiquan, he was a famous fighter

Master Dong Hai Chuan, Bagua he was a famous fighter

Master Yang Lu Chan, Yang Taiji he was a famous fighter

Master Kuo Yu Shen, Hsing I he was a famous fighter

Master Wang Shu Chin, Hsing I, Pakua, Taiji he was a famous fighter

What do they all have in common, they all talked about Jing 勁, then Qi 氣, and Shen 神

In our culture, its common to talk about Qi 氣, and Shen 神, the 5 elements, Yin Yang in terms of food we eat, the taste, the body. Certain herbs, foods raise qi 氣 boost shen 神
Its not just MA, its a way of life, and these terms describe, the chinese understanding of how the universe operates.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Yes, Paul/sanjuro...if one punches with FULL commitment (all muscles are tensed) from the inception of the movement."



I'm not sure what you mean by this Vic.:confused:

When I learned some boxing, a long time ago, I was taught to keep the arms relaxed. Kind of like swatting a fly or snapping a towel.

So, if you could would you explain what you mean by this?

Thanks.



***WHAT you were taught in boxing is what people in wing chun should have been taught also. But that's not always the case.

........................................

And what Paul/sanjuro wrote about tensing "during the flight" is exactly right.

[Hendrik]

TCMA has many significant problems:

the learning/training method it uses is poor and produces poor results; much of it is fantasy-based;


it is mainly practiced and taught by people who have no real martial/fighting skill;

and, the "concepts" for the most part are really just the preconceptions of people who can't fight on how to apply their martial art. ....








How could any single person ever show how what they do is better "stuffs" than all TCMA?

No matter what that person would show, you fantasy guys would always come back with the rejoinder that his competition just wasn't a good example of TCMA -- .................



All these twisted words...
You cant back up what you said again.
Isnt it always the case? empty words?

never even be able show yourself in Youtube to back yourself up that is the reality.





While You cant even produce one Youtube to back yourself with your superior than the TCMA style.






The followings are youtube of TCMA practitioners to just name a few:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsakrgK0h6Y&feature=PlayList&p=979AF2DCCCC0F6A1&playnext=1&index=58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pRepVNFolo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reb9e13TDDY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t18wGG_wtY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M2SS4Q8JTU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_611ZXXuA&feature=PlayList&p=AF0BC14284992EAC&playnext=1&index=14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0QzacmmNw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtrqhrbZDBw&feature=related....







Speaking about MoDuk. Hmmm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is true only for Martial artist who use Lik 力, Strength for their techniques, hence muscular tension

However there are higher levels, Jing 勁, then Qi 氣, and then Shen 神 . All these are guided by Yi(intent) 意

Some insult the chinese people and culture that created WCK even though they learn WCK, my sifu would say sometimes 教會弟子 没有师傅- once you teach a student everything, he will not respect the Sifu. Some people should never have been taught chinese martial arts in the first place.
尊師重道, respect the teacher/ancestors and the way/culture. Without this, there can be no real breakthrough in skills or character. Even if you were the best fighter, without Mo Dak your inner cultivation, is nothing. That is, in chinese MA, the most important skill. MMA, K1, UFC, Lei Tei, Competition, Fame, Ego is not the highest level. Chinese MA, talks about personal cultivation, the biggest opponent is yourself, mind, body, spirit.

Master Ip Man in his Kuen Kuit said, internally train 1 breath of qi 氣, externally train the bones and tendons. He was a famous fighter

Master Wang Xiang Zhai, Yiquan, he was a famous fighter

Master Dong Hai Chuan, Bagua he was a famous fighter

Master Yang Lu Chan, Yang Taiji he was a famous fighter

Master Kuo Yu Shen, Hsing I he was a famous fighter

Master Wang Shu Chin, Hsing I, Pakua, Taiji he was a famous fighter

What do they all have in common, they all talked about Jing 勁, then Qi 氣, and Shen 神

In our culture, its common to talk about Qi 氣, and Shen 神, the 5 elements, Yin Yang in terms of food we eat, the taste, the body. Certain herbs, foods raise qi 氣 boost shen 神
Its not just MA, its a way of life, and these terms describe, the chinese understanding of how the universe operates.

When you can move without muscular power, please let me know.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
Hmm, well, in THAT regard, I agree, we can use the "recoil" when our strike meets resistence, that is different,


When you can move without muscular power, please let me know.



Could you please explain with your muscular power how is your structure adapt to the the recoil specifically?

[Shadow_warrior8]

When you can move without muscular power, please let me know.

When you know and can explain what is
Jing 勁, Qi 氣, Shen 神, Yi(intent) 意 or manifest it let me know too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

These videos show it, and these are reknown masters. Muscular power does not manifest such phenomena. And in the western world, the only kind of energy understood is lik, "strength"? Somehow I dont think this is true, maybe just for some forums because the other ones next door seem to really understand these internal elements. I have seen some western folk show some mind blowing internal kungfu, that will put some chinese guy's ego right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OahN6SnD5o

Hence legend, meets TCMA theory, TCMA theory meets manifestation
Manifestation meets youtube

And in the western world some call it fraud, BS, thousands of years of being wrong, because its is not understood by the viewer!
Internal arts dont seek to be understood or need to be, they are to be experienced.
Hence I have been told, real high level kungfu is to be in harmony, not to bash the other person to pulp and fill ones ego, but to flow in harmony, Win- Win, I dont hurt you and I dont allow you to hurt me. Inner cultivation.

Yes Hendrik Senior, I am at best still work in progress, in all aspects. Good reminder, thanks

[Hardwork108]

Stop living in a fantasy world.

I make comments about an art that I actually PRACTISE! You make comments about an art that you actually DON'T PRACTICE!

So the fantasy is yours not mine!




Ah, yes, this is one of the common ploys the fantasy guys use: there are depths to this fill-in-the-blank that you are unaware. Bullsh1t. It's easy to convince me -- just let's see it work, whatever it is, against competent fighters. How difficult is that?

Have you used your MMA against competent kung fu sifus in real fights or challenges. No? I thought not!

Again the fantasy is all yours!



All functional martial artists (BJJ, MT, boxers, MMA, judo, wrestlers, etc.) can do that at the drop of a hat. Why is it that only the guys who make those sorts of claims can never produce any evidence to suppor them? Well, the answer is obvious: all that stuff they believe is beneath the surface is fantasy.
The evidence is there in the nearest authentic kung fu school so why don't you go to them and make your remarks to their face and perhaps even challenge them to a real fight and not sparring.



I will be the first to admit I am no Steve Morris. But I am a fan. If I were in the UK, I'd be training with him.

As if Steve Morris did not have enough problems.:p

Seriously, Morris seems to appreciate kung fu much more than you!



He is someone who I think has his head screwed on right, has a lot of great experience, and knows what he is talking about. While I don't agree with him on everything, he is not a theoretical nonfighter.

I agree with you there but again I don't believe that his view of kung fu is as negative as yours. He seems to be fixated in badmouthing traditional karate. He makes some good points but he also a little unjust when criticizing and generalizing about karate.



TCMA has many significant problems:

IMHO you are not qualified to make the above statement!



the learning/training method it uses is poor and produces poor results; much of it is fantasy-based; it is mainly practiced and taught by people who have no real martial/fighting skill; and, the "concepts" for the most part are really just the preconceptions of people who can't fight on how to apply their martial art. It's really sad. You can either recognize this and try to do something about it or flop around in the muck of fantasy (and like some people, try to make money off the muckers).

What you should recognize is that you have no actual knowledge of traditional kung fu to make such generalized and insulting statements.

[LSWCTN1]

I agree with you there but again I don't believe that his view of kung fu is as negative as yours. He seems to be fixated in badmouthing traditional karate. He makes some good points but he also a little unjust when criticizing and generalizing about karate.



i think his reasons for badmouthing karate (from the little i know about him) are just. i know his wck instructor (Joseph Cheng) was famous for serving karate & tae kwon do guys a bit of a beating!

[m1k3]

And in the western world some call it fraud, BS, thousands of years of being wrong, because its is not understood by the viewer!


The same can be said for astrology, faith healing, fairies, Atlantis, dragons, witches, voodoo, magic, levitation and host of other unproved beliefs.

Just because a lot of people believe it doesn't make it true.

Thanks for sharing the vids though, I enjoy a chuckle first thing in the morning.

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

When you know and can explain what is
Jing 勁, Qi 氣, Shen 神, Yi(intent) 意 or manifest it let me know too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

These videos show it, and these are reknown masters. Muscular power does not manifest such phenomena. And in the western world, the only kind of energy understood is lik, "strength"? Somehow I dont think this is true, maybe just for some forums because the other ones next door seem to really understand these internal elements. I have seen some western folk show some mind blowing internal kungfu, that will put some chinese guy's ego right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OahN6SnD5o

Hence legend, meets TCMA theory, TCMA theory meets manifestation
Manifestation meets youtube

And in the western world some call it fraud, BS, thousands of years of being wrong, because its is not understood by the viewer!
Internal arts dont seek to be understood or need to be, they are to be experienced.
Hence I have been told, real high level kungfu is to be in harmony, not to bash the other person to pulp and fill ones ego, but to flow in harmony, Win- Win, I dont hurt you and I dont allow you to hurt me. Inner cultivation.

Yes Hendrik Senior, I am at best still work in progress, in all aspects. Good reminder, thanks

You can't move without exerting muscular power, period.
Even in the slightest, you still are.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yes in the absense of those intangible elements Jing 勁, Qi 氣, Shen 神, Yi(intent) 意 I mentioned, you are right

let me explain the context of my statement, muscular tension- it impedes the above.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The same can be said for astrology, faith healing, fairies, Atlantis, dragons, witches, voodoo, magic, levitation and host of other unproved beliefs.

Just because a lot of people believe it doesn't make it true.

Thanks for sharing the vids though, I enjoy a chuckle first thing in the morning.

:D

Sure, if those things make you laugh. Its good.

But we are talking about serious stuff Jing 勁, Qi 氣, Shen 神, Yi(intent) 意 , which you have no clue. So if it makes you laugh too, well to laugh is blessed yeah? :)

[Hendrik]

Sure, if those things make you laugh. Its good.

But we are talking about serious stuff Jing 勁, Qi 氣, Shen 神, Yi(intent) 意 , which you have no clue. So if it makes you laugh too, well to laugh is blessed yeah? :)



Shadow, no one is going to change the way they think.

So, make sure what you post is something you have experience and know for sure with your best, post for those who needs so they have one more data points on what to look for ,


as for those who is argue for arguement shake. let is be so they are happy living in the world they love to.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Shadow, no one is going to change the way they think.

So, make sure what you post is something you have experience and know for sure with your best, post for those who needs so they have one more data points on what to look for ,


as for those who is argue for arguement shake. let is be so they are happy living in the world they love to.

Yes Senior, I have had the experience, in fact for 6 years hands on with a master, but I stopped sharing honestly totally and without reserve, no reason for me to seek to be slammed by clueless guys. Other than that, this internal path is a great experience, life changing.

Jing 勁, Qi 氣, Shen 神, Yi(intent) 意 have been shown/taught to me by various masters and each to different degrees of proficiency, purity in terms of energy issue. Of course, that doesnt make us gods, whoever is saying this must be smoking something else.....we are human, but a really sophisticated machine.

So now I just point to 1 corner of the table(thanks robert for the quote), the rest will be left to those who really want to find out more to investigate. You provided the first data point years back. Hey...ding ding...both you Seniors said the same thing in not so many words- Data Points. Hahaha.....now thats surreal.
Glad some people are using my data points elsewhere, would be nice to give credit for where they get them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jing 勁, Qi 氣, Shen 神, Yi(intent) 意 have been shown/taught to me by various masters and each to different degrees of proficiency, purity in terms of energy issue. Of course, that doesnt make us gods, whoever is saying this must be smoking something else.....we are human, but a really sophisticated machine.



I agree with you on that.

[t_niehoff]

All these twisted words...
You cant back up what you said again.
Isnt it always the case? empty words?

never even be able show yourself in Youtube to back yourself up that is the reality.


Does the modern training method that all good fighters use produce superior results than the learning/training model of TCMA? Yes. Why do we know that? From the results, across populations. Will there be some good fighters that come from a tradition of training poorly? Sure. Will there be some poor fighters that come from a system of good training? Yes. You can't decide questions like these from anecdotes or single cases (as there will always be exceptions) -- you need to look across populations.




While You cant even produce one Youtube to back yourself with your superior than the TCMA style.


Sure I can -- look at any youtube video of actual fighting, look at how proven good fighters really train, etc. Can you direct me to one TCMAist that has beaten solid competition?




The followings are youtube of TCMA practitioners to just name a few:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsakrgK0h6Y&feature=PlayList&p=979AF2DCCCC0F6A1&playnext=1&index=58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pRepVNFolo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reb9e13TDDY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t18wGG_wtY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M2SS4Q8JTU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_611ZXXuA&feature=PlayList&p=AF0BC14284992EAC&playnext=1&index=14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0QzacmmNw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtrqhrbZDBw&feature=related....


I'm sorry, where is the fighting?



Speaking about MoDuk. Hmmm.

Mo duk is more bullsh1t. It is "the code" of silence. It's stuff like "mo duk" that keeps the fantasy floating.

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbIDwdA7Y8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfLbV6vAec

Do I need to continue? Where are all the TCMA masters that can competently fight?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The followings are youtube of TCMA practitioners to just name a few:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsakrgK0h6Y&feature=PlayList&p=979AF2DCCCC0F6A1&playnext=1&index=58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pRepVNFolo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reb9e13TDDY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t18wGG_wtY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M2SS4Q8JTU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_611ZXXuA&feature=PlayList&p=AF0BC14284992EAC&playnext=1&index=14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0QzacmmNw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtrqhrbZDBw&feature=related....







These are great, but what;s your point in regards to those clips?

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbIDwdA7Y8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfLbV6vAec

Do I need to continue? Where are all the TCMA masters that can competently fight?



Everyone knows There are good TCMA and bad TCMA, So, there is nothing NEW.


What we interested is YOU Support your claim with your OWN YOUTUBE on your So Superior style which is better then ALL TCMA.



those with critical mind, knows, showing other's bad doesnt mean you are better then them.



So, where is YOUR action with your Superior then ALL TCMA style YOUTUBE?

[Hendrik]

These are great, but what;s your point in regards to those clips?



The point is , as many understood and know, there are good TCMA and real TCMA masters.



And Now, when are you going to answer my questions above?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The point is , as many understood and know, there are good TCMA and real TCMA masters.



And Now, when are you going to answer my questions above?

Yes, this is true, there are many fine TCMA masters, of that there is no question.

Now, in regards to your question:
What was it again, something about recoil and structure?

[Hendrik]

Speaking about MoDuk. Hmmm. --- HS


Mo duk is more bullsh1t. It is "the code" of silence. It's stuff like "mo duk" that keeps the fantasy floating.



This shows your true color and who you are.

[Hendrik]

Yes, this is true, there are many fine TCMA masters, of that there is no question. -------


Everyone know that but Terence.

So, Terence has to show us his YOUTUBE on his superior Style. and we all are waiting to see.





Now, in regards to your question:
What was it again, something about recoil and structure?-------




If you have forgotten about it that is fine.

[t_niehoff]

Everyone knows There are good TCMA and bad TCMA, So, there is nothing NEW.


No, everyone doesn't know there is good TCMA. Where are the good TCMA fighters? If these people great TCMA fighters really exist, then it should be easy to point me to one, right?



What we interested is YOU Support your claim with your OWN YOUTUBE on your So Superior style which is better then ALL TCMA.


I am not talking about a "style" but a way of training -- the functional approach all modern fighters train.

Technically, I'm talking about any functional martial art. What is a functional martial art? It is any fighting method that takes things that we know work in quality fighting (full power/speed and against competent fighters) -- and we know they work because we can see them work for ourselves -- and practicing and/or teaching those things (as opposed to what people who don't fight believe will work in fighting). It's not teaching things we can't do or have never seen done at 100% or against good opponents.

We KNOW that functional training methods and functional fighting methods work because we can see that they work at 100% intensity and against competent fighters -- things like MT, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, etc. In those functional methods fighters teach their students what they know will work because they are doing it or have done it.

As we know this functional approach works and has produced world class level fighters -- whereas there is no evidence that the TCMA training approach produces any significant degree of fighting skill (and if you disagree, again, all you need to do is produce these people who developed competent skillsusing only the TCMA approach), it only makes sense to adopt that approach into your WCK.



See, with critical mind, one knows, showing other's bad doesnt mean you are better then them.

So, where is YOUR action with your Superior then ALL TCMA style YOUTUBE?

We know that the functional approach produces good results and even world class fighters. Who? Every single proven fighter.

We know that the TCMA hasn't produced any proven (other than in stories) good fighters.

So we can say that the functional approach is superior to the TCMA approach.

Asking to see youtube videos of me won't prove anything about how good TCMA training is. Even if I was a world-class fighter (and I'm not), you'd dismiss anything I did as "external", a poor example of TCMA, etc. and anyone I would beat would be a poor example of TCMA. Nothing I could do would ever convince you. And it shouldn't since this isn't how you go about proving TCMA's approach to training is valid.

To see how good TCMA can be, why don't you tell us who has great TCMA skill, trained exclusively with traditional methods? That's how you prove those methods work. Then we can have them fight some low level MMAist and get his ass kicked. ;)

[Hardwork108]

i think his reasons for badmouthing karate (from the little i know about him) are just.

Well Morris seems to think that the only budo training in Japan is carried out by Kyokushinkai and Judo practicioners. That is wrong! There are many Kyokushinkai off shoots that have the same type of fight oriented training. There is also at least one Goju Ryu (Morris's original style where he apparently held a 6th dan) organization that trains full contact fighting.

As far as other styles of karate such as Shotokan are concerned I believe that they have their own good senseis and fighters. Of course, the majority nowadays are Mc dojos. So in that regard I do understand where Morris comes from.

Unfortunately he even criticizes the old school Okinawan masters/schools and believe that this is unjust.



i know his wck instructor (Joseph Cheng) was famous for serving karate & tae kwon do guys a bit of a beating!

Joseph Cheng was an exceptional sifu. He was the real deal (internals included) and I have heard many good things about him. It is a pity that Cheng never taught t_niehoff, because if he had then Terrence would have been singing a different song today.

[Hendrik]

No, everyone doesn't know there is good TCMA. Where are the good TCMA fighters? If these people great TCMA fighters really exist, then it should be easy to point me to one, right?



I am not talking about a "style" but a way of training -- the functional approach all modern fighters train.

Technically, I'm talking about any functional martial art. What is a functional martial art? It is any fighting method that takes things that we know work in quality fighting (full power/speed and against competent fighters) -- and we know they work because we can see them work for ourselves -- and practicing and/or teaching those things (as opposed to what people who don't fight believe will work in fighting). It's not teaching things we can't do or have never seen done at 100% or against good opponents.

We KNOW that functional training methods and functional fighting methods work because we can see that they work at 100% intensity and against competent fighters -- things like MT, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, etc. In those functional methods fighters teach their students what they know will work because they are doing it or have done it.

As we know this functional approach works and has produced world class level fighters -- whereas there is no evidence that the TCMA training approach produces any significant degree of fighting skill (and if you disagree, again, all you need to do is produce these people who developed competent skillsusing only the TCMA approach), it only makes sense to adopt that approach into your WCK.



We know that the functional approach produces good results and even world class fighters. Who? Every single proven fighter.

We know that the TCMA hasn't produced any proven (other than in stories) good fighters.

So we can say that the functional approach is superior to the TCMA approach.

Asking to see youtube videos of me won't prove anything about how good TCMA training is. Even if I was a world-class fighter (and I'm not), you'd dismiss anything I did as "external", a poor example of TCMA, etc. and anyone I would beat would be a poor example of TCMA. Nothing I could do would ever convince you. And it shouldn't since this isn't how you go about proving TCMA's approach to training is valid.

To see how good TCMA can be, why don't you tell us who has great TCMA skill, trained exclusively with traditional methods? That's how you prove those methods work. Then we can have them fight some low level MMAist and get his ass kicked. ;)




You have a record of TALK but NO SHOW.

If that is what the label you want to stick on yourself . That is fine with me.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Mo duk is more bullsh1t. It is "the code" of silence. It's stuff like "mo duk" that keeps the fantasy floating.

Wingchun/chinese kungfu was used for self defence and sometimes ended up in killing the other person, not like rules in fights where you can tap out,
Kuo Yu Shen-Hsing I was sentence to jail for killing someone in a fight, so was Mas Oyama. Does it surprise you that God hand of karate learn Taiki Ken(Japanese version of Yiquan) as well?

MO DAK is about conduct and morality of the art, some see it as the heart of TCMA- what was morally acceptable in terms of the current beliefs of that time, which are still current in many people today.
Mo Dak= code of silence? Which chinese dict are you reading from? The martian version?
No one is perfect, not even a Sifu, and we have personal dragons/demons to slay. But with a Martial Code/Bible, we can aim to be better people, we can make mistakes and acknowledge, yeah we mucked up, admit it but say there is a bigger person in me- personal cultivation. Not like some say, I will have morality if I deem the person to be worthy of being moral/ethical to. Its about personal cultivation.
Seen Huo Yuan Jia by Jet Li? thats a good example of Mo Dak in transition/progression.

Holding a gun, what warrents killing a person, or maining him?
Since it is bullsh1t, it shows, you dont believe in morality. So your approach is shoot to kill, without examining the situation?

Again, you rubbish chinese martial arts as a holistic study, showing a lack of understanding of the culture and focussing on shallow views of the best MA is bashing up the other person.
You dont need MA for this. You dont need TCMA. You just need a baseball bat, and a thug like attitude.
Asian culture is much more sophisticated than that, and it trains mind, body and spirit. Back in the day, and even today its call this Personal cultivation. To show I am not biased, look at legendary Ueshiba, what is his budo based on? Violence or Peace/love? And he lived in china for sometime, some say thats where he picked up bagua, and internalised his original daito ryu aikijutsu to what it is today.

Were there fighters who proved themselves? You just didnt have the fate/ fortune to be alive then and even if you were, you werent part of the elite fighters that forged their arts through Death matches- Some of them realised its not the highest level to just win so they stopped challenging other styles
Provided you a long list and their arts, which you didnt bother to show your knowledge of them. Why dont you share what is your study on these people or arts?
And back in the day, you could lose your life for sprouting such nonsense about another person's family art. Your view is based on what you have seen selectively in a couple of years and therefore it applies to thousands of years of history? Thats pretty narrow IMHO. A small subset of a much bigger circle. And where's your reference or video on the guys you think are so good and how they smashed up TCMA fighters?

Since you depise chinese martial arts and think so little of the culture of the people, its ironical that you maintain you do or did wingchun. Guess what? Its chinese
And in the culture, we respectfully remember the source where the water we drink comes from. You must have missed that lesson when it was taught or have done really very little wingchun.

If you are really relishing for some confrontation, give me some time let me translate some of the statements you made, and post them on the china forums for billions of chinese to see, in china and all around the world. You will see definately see some action and know for sure if TCMA works or doesnt. You would have to leave your contact though. I say this respectfully
Many chinese people are buying into the US into the moment being Top enconomic power and many TCMA china masters are invited to US for seminars- We are a proud race just like any other around the world, and we will not tolerate racial slurs that led to us being called weak men of asia pre cultural revolution.
Is that a fair statement? I dont believe you are a all talk and no show kinda guy.

[LSWCTN1]

No, everyone doesn't know there is good TCMA. Where are the good TCMA fighters?

We know that the TCMA hasn't produced any proven (other than in stories) good fighters.

So we can say that the functional approach is superior to the TCMA approach.

then why the hell have you studied wing chun, and why the hell are you on this forum ruining posts with you 'MMA is far superior' BS?

maybe it is to some people, and maybe some people are more than happy to continue down the same sh!tty route that you claim they are presently on

how about contributing to the discussion brought about by the thread title?

[Jim Roselando]

Mr. T wrote:

I am not talking about a "style" but a way of training -- the functional approach all modern fighters train.

Sanjuro Ronin quote:

2- It doesn't matter what someone in your MA has done or even is doing, all that matters is what YOU can do.
Stop riding other peoples accomplishments.

*

Mr. T is just shy! Thats all!

:eek: :rolleyes:

After a decade on the forums he is still too shy to demo anything, but, never too shy to tell everyone how other people are gaining results.

Do as I say, not as I do seems to fit.

;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mr. T wrote:

I am not talking about a "style" but a way of training -- the functional approach all modern fighters train.

Sanjuro Ronin quote:

2- It doesn't matter what someone in your MA has done or even is doing, all that matters is what YOU can do.
Stop riding other peoples accomplishments.

*

Mr. T is just shy! Thats all!

:eek: :rolleyes:

After a decade on the forums he is still too shy to demo anything, but, never too shy to tell everyone how other people are gaining results.

Do as I say, not as I do seems to fit.

;)

Well, I stand by what my sig says, on many levels.
That said, T has made it clear many times that what he advocates is different TRAINING methodologies and that he feels that the vast majority of those in WC are inadequate.
While I don't agree with all he says, I find great value in REAL traditional training, T is quite correct that if the majority of WC people ( and that goes for TMA in general, not in specific) woudl fight full contact OUTSIDE their system, they would PROBABLY get ther buts kicked and we have seen plenty of that.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Well, I stand by what my sig says, on many levels.
That said, T has made it clear many times that what he advocates is different TRAINING methodologies and that he feels that the vast majority of those in WC are inadequate.
While I don't agree with all he says, I find great value in REAL traditional training, T is quite correct that if the majority of WC people ( and that goes for TMA in general, not in specific) woudl fight full contact OUTSIDE their system, they would PROBABLY get ther buts kicked and we have seen plenty of that.

Would like to learn more and see that.
Where can I see some footage of TCMA having their asses kicked? Some examples please
And I mean the serious known TCMA fighters. Maybe some from Hsing I, Bagua, Liu He ba fa, Baji or any other TCMA lineages.

I have not known TCMA to be anything less than Full Contact, in fact there are no rules, it was made that way, so full contact aint even the standard in TCMA.

[t_niehoff]

OK, let's try to put this as simply as possible -- for the simple-minded, fantasy guys:

THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS (produces competent fighting skill) IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING.

Got that? Let's say it one more time:

THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING.

If --IF -- TCMA-style training works, then we should expect to see loads of competent TCMA fighters (that haven't also trained like modern fighters), right? After all, hundreds of millions of people practice TCMA. But, so far, no one has produced a single competent fighter(someone who has proved they can hold their own consistently against proven competent fighters). Not a one. Why?

This standard also applies to boxing, MMA, BJJ, MT, etc. The only relevent evidence that they work, and that their training-style works is evidence of them working. Do we have evidence that they work? Do we have evidence that their style/method of training works, that it produces competent fighters? Yes, overwhelming evidence.

One the one hand we have no evidence that TCMA-style training works and on the other hand we have overwhelming evidence that the modern training approach does.

So, going back to THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING, how does what I or anyone else (that doesn't use that approach) have to do with whether ornot TCMA-style training works? Absolutely nothing. Even if I didn't practice martial arts, it doesn't matter since THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE OF TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKING IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. And we have none. Zilch.

All this and other sorts of arguments are attempts to distract people away from the real issue -- which is, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS? Just produce the competent fighters that this style of training produces.

The fact many people BELIEVE it works doesn't make it true. Their belief isn't evidence of it working. And, that belief doesn't even come from evidence since there is no evidence that it works.

Nor does it matter that there are stories. Or traditions. Or anything other than solid, first-hand evidence.

Once again, THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. You can either produce that evidence or you can't.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Would like to learn more and see that.
Where can I see some footage of TCMA having their asses kicked? Some examples please
And I mean the serious known TCMA fighters. Maybe some from Hsing I, Bagua, Liu He ba fa, Baji or any other TCMA lineages.

I have not known TCMA to be anything less than Full Contact, in fact there are no rules, it was made that way, so full contact aint even the standard in TCMA.

I would love to see clips of fighters from those systems too, please share.

[m1k3]

I think a big part of the problem is that there are plenty of people who train martial arts for something other than fighting skills. This goes for TCMA as well as Japanese arts and even those who do MMA and BJJ. There is a lot to be gained from this practice, I know because I am one of them. I train BJJ for a lot of reasons, mostly because it is fun and I am training with a good group of people but being able to fight is not anywhere near the top.

(begin rant)

However, I agree with T when he takes issue with those who claim to be part of a fighting tradition without fighting. Who hide behind my sifu's sifu once defeated (pick a number here) of (drunken sailors, enraged bikers, gang bangers, ninjas bent on destruction and terror) using only his skills in (pick martial art here), or my master has the secret internal powers and he is passing them on to me or my skill is too deadly to be used in the ring. Those are anecdotes, excuses and rationalizations.

Enjoy your art, train hard and even secretly feel smug and superior because of your skills, but if you don't fight, in the ring, on the mats or on the streets, don't claim to be a fighter. You may train to fight, with varying degrees of success but you are not a fighter unless you fight.

(/rant over)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think a big part of the problem is that there are plenty of people who train martial arts for something other than fighting skills. This goes for TCMA as well as Japanese arts and even those who do MMA and BJJ. There is a lot to be gained from this practice, I know because I am one of them. I train BJJ for a lot of reasons, mostly because it is fun and I am training with a good group of people but being able to fight is not anywhere near the top.

(begin rant)

However, I agree with T when he takes issue with those who claim to be part of a fighting tradition without fighting. Who hide behind my sifu's sifu once defeated (pick a number here) of (drunken sailors, enraged bikers, gang bangers, ninjas bent on destruction and terror) using only his skills in (pick martial art here), or my master has the secret internal powers and he is passing them on to me or my skill is too deadly to be used in the ring. Those are anecdotes, excuses and rationalizations.

Enjoy your art, train hard and even secretly feel smug and superior because of your skills, but if you don't fight, in the ring, on the mats or on the streets, don't claim to be a fighter. You may train to fight, with varying degrees of success but you are not a fighter unless you fight.

(/rant over)

Very well said, I no longer consider myself a fighter, regardless of my past resume, simply because I no longer fight.
Since retiring I still try to spar full contact as much as I can, but it certainly is NOT the same and while I did have a "challenge" match not to long ago at my Hung Kuen Sifu's home, it was hardly a "fight".
No fighting = non-fighter.

[t_niehoff]

I think a big part of the problem is that there are plenty of people who train martial arts for something other than fighting skills. This goes for TCMA as well as Japanese arts and even those who do MMA and BJJ. There is a lot to be gained from this practice, I know because I am one of them. I train BJJ for a lot of reasons, mostly because it is fun and I am training with a good group of people but being able to fight is not anywhere near the top.


And I agree with you -- if developing fighting skill isn't important to you and other things are, that's fine. For example, if someone wants to do tai ji to relieve stress or whatever, I can totally support that. BUT, when they start claiming that their practice also develops fighting skills, I think we need to address that.

[Shadow_warrior8]

And I agree with you -- if developing fighting skill isn't important to you and other things are, that's fine. For example, if someone wants to do tai ji to relieve stress or whatever, I can totally support that. BUT, when they start claiming that their practice also develops fighting skills, I think we need to address that.

Yeah sure, address whatever you want, but addressing someone does not mean insulting another culture, beliefes. Either Mr Obama would give a ear lashing everytime he goes on TV.

Still waiting for the videos on TCMA being beaten up by MMA guys. No videos, some stories or references would be great too.

[Shadow_warrior8]

OK, let's try to put this as simply as possible -- for the simple-minded, fantasy guys:

THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS (produces competent fighting skill) IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING.

Got that? Let's say it one more time:

THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING.

If --IF -- TCMA-style training works, then we should expect to see loads of competent TCMA fighters (that haven't also trained like modern fighters), right? After all, hundreds of millions of people practice TCMA. But, so far, no one has produced a single competent fighter(someone who has proved they can hold their own consistently against proven competent fighters). Not a one. Why?

This standard also applies to boxing, MMA, BJJ, MT, etc. The only relevent evidence that they work, and that their training-style works is evidence of them working. Do we have evidence that they work? Do we have evidence that their style/method of training works, that it produces competent fighters? Yes, overwhelming evidence.

One the one hand we have no evidence that TCMA-style training works and on the other hand we have overwhelming evidence that the modern training approach does.

So, going back to THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING, how does what I or anyone else (that doesn't use that approach) have to do with whether ornot TCMA-style training works? Absolutely nothing. Even if I didn't practice martial arts, it doesn't matter since THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE OF TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKING IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. And we have none. Zilch.

All this and other sorts of arguments are attempts to distract people away from the real issue -- which is, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS? Just produce the competent fighters that this style of training produces.

The fact many people BELIEVE it works doesn't make it true. Their belief isn't evidence of it working. And, that belief doesn't even come from evidence since there is no evidence that it works.

Nor does it matter that there are stories. Or traditions. Or anything other than solid, first-hand evidence.

Once again, THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. You can either produce that evidence or you can't.

YES WHY DONT YOU APPLY THAT TO YOURSELF
POST YOUR VIDEOS OF YOU KICKING TCMA STYLIST ASSES
Or show videos of other modern fighters kicking TCMA stylists
Or even show some stories- heck I will hear your fantasy ones too

ALSO POST WHO IN TCMA, THE FAMOUS LINEAGES THAT YOU KNOW?
Mak Bow Sim? Liang Shou Yu? Wan Lu Choi?
OR WHO IN MAINLAND CHINA HAVE YOU TRAINED WITH/DEFEATED TO SAY THEY SUCK?

USING WORDS LIKE TCMA TRAINING? Whats that? Whats different from modern training?
WHY DONT YOU TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS KIND OF TRAINING AND YOUR RESEARCH?

Here's my video, on crappy TCMA training that doesnt produce fighters and are all wrong
The Stone Lock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlVUcNQIhE
Body conditioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyR5gIqgHC0
Shuaijiao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PbNpaiIi9I
Shuai Jiao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y

Oh no, why doesnt modern training seem so similar???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzQTjj-rP_E

[t_niehoff]

YES WHY DONT YOU APPLY THAT TO YOURSELF
POST YOUR VIDEOS OF YOU KICKING TCMA STYLIST ASSES
Or show videos of other modern fighters kicking TCMA stylists
Or even show some stories- heck I will hear your fantasy ones too

ALSO POST WHO IN TCMA, THE FAMOUS LINEAGES THAT YOU KNOW?
Mak Bow Sim? Liang Shou Yu? Wan Lu Choi?
OR WHO IN MAINLAND CHINA HAVE YOU TRAINED WITH/DEFEATED TO SAY THEY SUCK?

USING WORDS LIKE TCMA TRAINING? Whats that? Whats different?
WHY DONT YOU TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS KIND OF TRAINING AND YOUR RESEARCH?

Here's my video, on crappy TCMA training
The Stone Lock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlVUcNQIhE
Body conditioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyR5gIqgHC0
Shuaijiao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PbNpaiIi9I

Oh no, why doesnt modern training seem so similar???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzQTjj-rP_E

This isn't about me, it is about whether or not TCMA-style training works. And, THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. Again, you try to dodge the issue. You try to focus attention anywhere but to the fact you can't supply any evidence of anyone trained exclusively with TCMA-style training fighting and holding their own against proven competent fighters.

You ASSUME there are competent fighters in China that trained that way. But that is only an ASSUMPTION based on belief, not on evidence. If it were based on evidence, you could provide it.

Criticial thinking doesn't take things for granted. It doesn't start with assumptions that X produces good results, regardless of what X is. You start with skepticism, with not believing anything unless and until there is sound evidence to convince you. And I keep asking: where is this evidence? The fact of the matter is you have no evidence but you believe it anyway.

Not only that, but you try to distract yourself and others by fallacious arguments, as in trying to make this about me. It's not about me. It is about whether TCMA-style training produces good results (competent fighters). You still haven't named one. This just shows your argument is bankrupt of evidence.

You posted links to videos. These do not show fighting -- and certainly not against proven, competent fighters. They are just more examples of TCMA-style training.

[Shadow_warrior8]

This isn't about me, it is about whether or not TCMA-style training works. And, THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. Again, you try to dodge the issue. You try to focus attention anywhere but to the fact you can't supply any evidence of anyone trained exclusively with TCMA-style training fighting and holding their own against proven competent fighters.

You ASSUME there are competent fighters in China that trained that way. But that is only an ASSUMPTION based on belief, not on evidence. If it were based on evidence, you could provide it.

Criticial thinking doesn't take things for granted. It doesn't start with assumptions that X produces good results, regardless of what X is. You start with skepticism, with not believing anything unless and until there is sound evidence to convince you. And I keep asking: where is this evidence? The fact of the matter is you have no evidence but you believe it anyway.

Not only that, but you try to distract yourself and others by fallacious arguments, as in trying to make this about me. It's not about me. It is about whether TCMA-style training produces good results (competent fighters). You still haven't named one. This just shows your argument is bankrupt of evidence.

You posted links to videos. These do not show fighting -- and certainly not against proven, competent fighters. They are just more examples of TCMA-style training.

Yeah its not about you, then its not about the Chinese people either.

Whats there to assume? I posted videos, these people are training in China.
Are you going to tell me its some chinese magic, hocus pocus that creates the images?
And surprise surprise, the most simple of examples, dont modern fighters train in KBs? Dont K1 guys, US marine guys, Systema guys, heaps of western guys? What do we see in the video, showing TCMA Shui Chiao- Stone Lock? Same type of training, same kind of drills!!! And stone lock goes all the way back to Shaolin Temple.

Where's your evidence, video, research of any kind? None, and someone just said, nothing to back things up for 10 years?

Let me tell you something, China is big and vast. Its traditions are more than you can even phantom. Dont start talking as if you know the culture or martial traditions and what it is about.

[t_niehoff]

Yeah its not about you, then its not about the Chinese people either.


This isn't a racial thing -- it's about the effectiveness of training methods.



Whats there to assume? I posted videos, these people are training in China.
Are you going to tell me its some chinese magic, hocus pocus that creates the images?


Yes, those are videos of them training -- the fact that they train doesn't mean their training produces good, competent fighters. You determine how good a training method is by its results. So again, THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. To see the training working, we need to see fighting.



And surprise surprise, the most simple of examples, dont modern fighters train in KBs? Dont K1 guys, US marine guys, Systema guys, heaps of western guys? What do we see in the video, showing TCMA Shui Chiao- Stone Lock? Same type of training, same kind of drills!!! And stone lock goes all the way back to Shaolin Temple.


I'm not talking about whether or not there are some isolated things in common, but in OVERALL APPROACH. If you don't understand the distinction between the TCMA-style approach and the modern fight-training approach, you shouldn't even be partaking in the discussion.



Where's your evidence, video, research of any kind? None, and someone just said, nothing to back things up for 10 years?

Let me tell you something, China is big and vast. Its traditions are more than you can even phantom. Dont start talking as if you know the culture or martial traditions and what it is about.

Again, you take these things for granted WITHOUT EVIDENCE.

Where is my evidence? Well, to begin with the FACT that there is NO EVIDENCE of ANY TCMA-STYLE TRAINED COMPETENT FIGHTERS EXISTING. That's also why I don't believe in Bigfootor the Loch Ness Monster. If TCMA-style training produced competent fighters, we'd see them. We don't. You haven't. No one has. And before you start saying that you have or that they do exist, provide the evidence of that existence. If they do really exist, it is a very simple thing to produce.

[Shadow_warrior8]

This isn't a racial thing -- it's about the effectiveness of training methods.
Yes, those are videos of them training -- the fact that they train doesn't mean their training produces good, competent fighters. You determine how good a training method is by its results. So again, THE ONLY RELEVENT EVIDENCE THAT TCMA-STYLE TRAINING WORKS IS EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING. To see the training working, we need to see fighting.
I'm not talking about whether or not there are some isolated things in common, but in OVERALL APPROACH. If you don't understand the distinction between the TCMA-style approach and the modern fight-training approach, you shouldn't even be partaking in the discussion.
Again, you take these things for granted WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
Where is my evidence? Well, to begin with the FACT that there is NO EVIDENCE of ANY TCMA-STYLE TRAINED COMPETENT FIGHTERS EXISTING. That's also why I don't believe in Bigfootor the Loch Ness Monster. If TCMA-style training produced competent fighters, we'd see them. We don't. You haven't. No one has. And before you start saying that you have or that they do exist, provide the evidence of that existence. If they do really exist, it is a very simple thing to produce.

You are talking your twisty words again and it seems you really are what the other people say.
Why you talking about TCMA as if you can describe what it is? Its evident you know nothing about it.

We are asking for your modern training. Show your evidence on your superior methods. We have presented evidence of TCMA training, and even detailed the training. You present?

Yeah these shuai chiao guys arent training for fighting or competition, thats why youtube has heaps of these clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33LJQWo1xao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqW67992Yw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WG5Fd563zU
This is Baji TCMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmGKKbpxutU

中国散打 Chinese Sanda, its source TCMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2lRlqIDot8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BeGyQMxwNQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtM9ssG8Qoo

You are talking overall approach? Hahahaha....
You think people here havent trained MMA, Boxing, BBJ, Muay Thai? And that they have not seen the merit of TCMA even though they have trained in the so called modern arts? Only you are the all enlightened one? I have trained in both ways, so I know and can present an experience in the TCMA approach. Modern training is even easier.
But I leave that for you to describe because you claim you know it so well. What us TCMA stylist present you only slam, you should present your methods for our knowledge too.

TCMA, punch/kicks bags, train kung lik, condition, run, spar, compete. On top of that, they train jing, qi, shen. And its also about training character and Mo Dak. Its more complete than anything you have mentioned.
Modern methods dont punch/kicks bags, run, spar, compete?

First we talked about TCMA internal training- Chinese kungfu has its internal martial arts, "hard training" kung lik type arts, literally hundreds to thousands of styles all over the country. And you claimed it was all rubbish, thousands of years of it.
So we come to your playing field - just bashing and fighting
We show TCMA training methods, that even modern methods use e.g Kettlebells, Stone locks-you say its one sided and modern is more complete. Just google how many UFC, MMA, K1 guys swear by KBS to enhance fighting.
You talked about TCMA not producing fighters remember right?
Then you say, the only way to prove TCMA is in the fighting.
We show you TCMA videos on fighting which i feature above taking part in international competition
What are you going to say next? That its not real fighting? Only UFC is? Or K1? Or MMA? Is competent fighting? What qualifies you to say what is or is not?

So describe how different your modern methods are from TCMA methods. Heck its more mysterious than jing, qi, shen because you have not shown any video or differences between modern and TCMA at all.

This statement is really good, its is. Hahahahaha......
If you don't understand the distinction between the TCMA-style approach and the modern fight-training approach, you shouldn't even be partaking in the discussion.

[Hardwork108]

then why the hell have you studied wing chun, and why the hell are you on this forum ruining posts with you 'MMA is far superior' BS?

maybe it is to some people, and maybe some people are more than happy to continue down the same sh!tty route that you claim they are presently on

how about contributing to the discussion brought about by the thread title?

LOL. Now you see why I sometimes post the way I do to some of these guys and why I describe them as Glorified Kickboxers. Believe me Terrence is not the only one here with the same views.

There are many here who believe, among other things, that you need to always fight outside of your system to prove yourself to the knucklehead fraternity (with video clips included). They seem to have this ridiculous assumption that each kung fu style trains you to fight others within the same style and that to fight fighters from other styles then you need to actually train in the other styles.Lol, lol lol,lol,lol.

This forum is full of people who have never really studied kung fu but are always too ready to put it down and criticize it in favour of MMA. It is just that most of the other (other than t_niehoff) MMA "kung fu-ists":rolleyes: are a litle more, shall we say, "clever" in their deregatory remarks regarding TCMA and are better at disguising their contempt for Kung fu.

[Hendrik]

Shadow,



I remember some where I read on the history of the second world war.

a Jew Holocaust survival told the journalist " I am glad that I am not capable to do what they do to us". when asking how he think about those who take action on the Holocaust.

See, in this world there are always those will even carry out genocide because other have different culture and living differently then them.

See, These people even murder Christ.



So, IMHO, lets not be those type of people and Dont even bother communicate with those who cannot comprehend and have a limited mind ability to understand others but claiming they are the best.

Send them love and best wishes. For forgiving is our job, and judgement is God's.



As what is TCMA? without TCMA there is not even a forun like this. The name of this Site is Kung fu Magazine Forums. That is reality no one can change that.





The last part of the Movie Ip Man said it well on TCMA /Wing Chun and those who behave in human.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OGK-pIMkw&feature=related

What Ip Man said before the fight:

"Martial arts may be a form of brute strength
but in our Chinese martial arts system
it has many ideals and philosophies,
Martial arts rules that also include compassion,
to help others.

This is what you Japanese invaders will never
never understand, because you use this strength and change it
into brutal power to terrorize others,
That is why you are not fit to learn Chinese martial arts"




Best Regards
Hendrik

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hendrik Senior,
it is good advice. It warrents heeding. Thanks. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shadow,



I remember some where I read on the history of the second world war.

a Jew Holocaust survival told the journalist " I am glad that I am not capable to do what they do to us". when asking how he think about those who take action on the Holocaust.

See, in this world there are always those will even carry out genocide because other have different culture and living differently then them.

See, These people even murder Christ.



So, IMHO, lets not be those type of people and Dont even bother communicate with those who cannot comprehend and have a limited mind ability to understand others but claiming they are the best.

Send them love and best wishes. For forgiving is our job, and judgement is God's.



As what is TCMA? without TCMA there is not even a forun like this. The name of this Site is Kung fu Magazine Forums. That is reality no one can change that.





The last part of the Movie Ip Man said it well on TCMA /Wing Chun and those who behave in human.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OGK-pIMkw&feature=related

What Ip Man said before the fight:

"Martial arts may be a form of brute strength
but in our Chinese martial arts system
it has many ideals and philosophies,
Martial arts rules that also include compassion,
to help others.

This is what you Japanese invaders will never
never understand, because you use this strength and change it
into brutal power to terrorize others,
That is why you are not fit to learn Chinese martial arts"




Best Regards
Hendrik

What are you trying to say with this post ??

[m1k3]

As someone who studied Wing Chun in the United States I can honestly say that the training I received was not geared to training fighters. Some of what was taught would give you some very modest skills but it was not taken far enough.

There was conditioning and forms and compliant drills and some chi sao. It was targeted towards people with little or no athletic ability and was primarily designed to raise money.

It was a business. It is not good for business to have your customers getting hurt or bruised or finding out that if the ever got into a fight or even some hard sparring with someone outside the school that they were not prepared.

It may be quite possible that there are a lot people training with that level of intensity in Kung Fu in China but it is very rare from what I can see here in the States.

Far too many Kung Fu practitioners and sifus in the US are paper tigers. But the worst part of it is they believe they have good skills even though they never test them.

What I like about BJJ is I know where I stand skill wise. Its not because of belts and rankings but how well you do on the mats. And because we have people at our school who compete in tournaments it helps keep the skill level honest at the school. Its hard to claim you are the deadly when you are getting tooled in the local competitions. Even if you don't compete you can measure yourself against those who do.

[Hardwork108]

What are you trying to say with this post ??

I believe that he is saying that traditional kung fu practice is beyond the comprehension of knuckleheads.:D

That is something that I have been saying for a long time, as well.;)

[Hendrik]

I believe that he is saying that traditional kung fu practice is beyond the comprehension of knuckleheads.:D

That is something that I have been saying for a long time, as well.;)

Yes, indeed.

For me, my TCMA training lead me to a better health and personal living at my middle age.

See, life is not a Sport. life is living one has to face one self, one's body, one's mind every second. It doesnt end or start such as in Sport. and human grow old and aging. I still can use if for martial purpose but that is very very slim. I use it every day to condition my body and mind to live and more peacefull, healty, and more satisfaction life.

The Chinese use the words "Wu Shu" or the technology to desolve figthing. Wu kung or the power cultivated to desolve fighting. It is not a sport to compete who is the best but something to desolve fighting for oneself and others with the intention of living a meaningfull constructive life.



Chinese Wu Shu and I would not translate it as martial art because Wu Shu is not martial art but technology and more which serving the human. It is not a sport or competition. This is a different kind of Philosophy or way of living the chinese have that is not understood in general today.



A part of Wu Shu is Yang Sheen or cultivate living. only a few years ago a person in China told me he went up to an old known master in Beijing asking him how good is his fighting can he defeat Mohamad ALi,

The old master said, I dont know who will win if we fought when we were young. may be even Ali will defeat me. However, I do know, with my age now, Mohamad Ali cant do what i do. That is the Yang Shen part of Wu Shu --- able to live a good life until our life ended.

[Hendrik]

Far too many Kung Fu practitioners and sifus in the US are paper tigers. -----


One might want to ask, what is the purpose take up Kung Fu class?

In the usa, that can range from entertainment to family time to exercise to fashion. There is nothing wrong with that because everyone have a different goal.

Just because some like to do it for their family time or fashion doesnt make TCMA no good.

such as
There are plenty of people learn Thai boxing in Taiwan for excise purpose, any Kyokushin with serious 3 years training can go in there and swep off those people. But then what is the point? is Thai boxing weak ? Certainly not.



But the worst part of it is they believe they have good skills even though they never test them. -------


How to test it? and I rather they dont test it.

In my understanding in South East Asia decades ago, testing it meaning no pull back. and even within my own martial family that cause a person died. and the other who didnt die give up the art and become a priest. So, what good is testing?
and not to mention, who really use the art?

See, damage in those testing can easily become a life long damage if not handling properly. I myself carry these injuries. Thus, I know, I also have cause others injure in the full contact which I regret until today.

Qigong, Zen training give me a second chance to improve my health.

But what happen to those who doesnt have it or less fortunate? Top figther dying young at 40's.... and in fact I have seen a few extremely great fighter who is closed to me died at the age of 20's, one take a turning kick to the head and that's it, gone after a few weeks . mon and grandma cries but what is done cannot be reverse.
That is no reason to do a sport like that for those who have family.

But then one only know or realized that when one is at 40 and have family. all young teen especially who is born great in Sparing.. will not care for it until they are 40's or above when their body is in trouble.


In the name of Ego and I am better then you lots of good life being sacrified. is it needed to go that way in this peacefull era of living? This is not world war II or time one needs to kill others to protect one's own home anymore.


For me, as a father, All these martial art stuffs need to be reconsiderate and I myself dont let my kid take competative sport type martial art. Because it is not good to hurt others kid and not good to have mine hurt.



So, different people have different perspective. Some might love to train for solely fighting. that is fine.

[Shadow_warrior8]

As someone who studied Wing Chun in the United States I can honestly say that the training I received was not geared to training fighters. Some of what was taught would give you some very modest skills but it was not taken far enough.

There was conditioning and forms and compliant drills and some chi sao. It was targeted towards people with little or no athletic ability and was primarily designed to raise money.

It was a business. It is not good for business to have your customers getting hurt or bruised or finding out that if the ever got into a fight or even some hard sparring with someone outside the school that they were not prepared.

It may be quite possible that there are a lot people training with that level of intensity in Kung Fu in China but it is very rare from what I can see here in the States.

Far too many Kung Fu practitioners and sifus in the US are paper tigers. But the worst part of it is they believe they have good skills even though they never test them.

What I like about BJJ is I know where I stand skill wise. Its not because of belts and rankings but how well you do on the mats. And because we have people at our school who compete in tournaments it helps keep the skill level honest at the school. Its hard to claim you are the deadly when you are getting tooled in the local competitions. Even if you don't compete you can measure yourself against those who do.

I am sure there are schools like that all over the world
But i have come to understand the US is a great nation of tenancity. And being great, there are different levels of people and skills.
I would like to believe there is a wingchun school or schools which teach great TCMA martial arts and wingchun to great ability.
But saying that, I am sure there are those who teach without a clue.

A quote from a light hearted movie seem somewhat apt
2 Weeks notice:
Lucy Kelson: You are the most selfish human being on the planet!
George Wade: Well that's just silly. Have you met everyone on the planet?

[m1k3]

Hendrick and Shadow_Warrior8, I have to admit I am really confused by your posts.

On one hand you argue with t_ that Kung Fu produces great fighters and how dare he say it doesn't.

Then on the other hand you comment that competing or fighting is not important to Kung Fu, There is no need to test your skills and that it is really for developing attributes other than fighting or competitions.

And lastly there are types of Kung Fu that develop secret internal powers, which may or may not have anything to do with fighting or competitions.

It comes off to me as some Kung Fu is good for fighting, some Kung Fu has nothing to do with fighting and it is wrong to criticize any of them.

Maybe one of you could clear this up for me.

Thanks,

Mike

[Shadow_warrior8]

Billions of chinese people, thousands of years, thousands of lineages, there is no Kungfu for Dummies textbook for TCMA
There is no simple answer here as the culture has gone through buddhism, taoism, confucianism, christianity, islam, hinduism through thousands of years.

I offer but a little insight into TCMA, as I have trained in it and also so called modern ways. And of course my view doesnt cover everything.
Who can say they know it all? That to me is fantasy thinking.

1. Kungfu produces fighters? Yes, great masters and their legends have been mentioned here. Dong Hai Chuan, Wang Xiang Zhai, Ip Man, Kuo Yu Shen, Yang Lu Chan, Huo Yuan Jia etc.... Current TCMA Competitive fighters are revealed in the youtube links.
It was not something that was glorious to show fighting or causing hurt, as my sifu, sigung, seniors have always said, the objective is not about fighting, its about inner cultivation. Some choose to test TCMA in the ring, well its part of the inner cultivation process. We all go through it, ego is at play most times.

Here's a good quote from a great movie, even if its cheesy.

Daniel Larusso: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel Larusso: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel Larusso: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel Larusso: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel Larusso: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel Larusso: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel Larusso: [pondering] No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel Larusso: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.

2. Is the goal of TCMA fighting? No. Just like Shaolin monks dont do kungfu so they can go out and bash any person. Its a deep practice, of inner cultivation which involves qi and shen, mind spirit and character practices. E.g Mo Dak. Part of the cultivation, one will encounter inner demons/dragons like ego, I think I am invincible or better than another person, I want Fame, Power etc... That through training physically, balanced with a spiritual/emotional practice will lead one to understand actually the only opponent one has is Himself.

3. The internal power practices was traditionally a closed door practice. Its not secret per se. In fact, alot has been shown in videos here. So much for secret. Some qigong practices are meant for building power like Santi from Hsing I, some are used for healing like Zhan Zhuang, some were for spiritual practices. And again, there is no simple answer here as there are hundreds of styles of Qigong.

4. All kungfu can be used for fighting, but fighting is not the goal. And some TCM(Not TCMA) practices are not about fighting.
Not all fighting has to do with kungfu either, you dont need kungfu to pick a fight- you just need a bad attitude.

I am sure I have not done the chinese culture proper justice here, because its really so much more. But just a little morsel of a really big pie.

Btw,
I posted TCMA fighting clips in regular tournaments only because someone claimed they dont exist
I posted TCMA training methods because someone said modern training was so much better. It was to make a point, TCMA does train for realistic combat, punching bags, running, conditioning, sparring, kung lik, body hardening. And its obvious so called modern methods are not so different or unique.
It was a very narrow view of TCMA, but since the only view point asked was FIGHTING AND EVIDENCE OF IT WORKING, I presented a shallow view as requested.

Fighting is only a subset of a bigger set, but it helps clear some smoke. TCMA is really very complex with many subsets. Its not one punch, one kick, you hurt, I win kinda thing.

Senior Hendrik posted this in a earlier post and it sums up everything very well

What Ip Man said before the fight:

"Martial arts may be a form of brute strength
but in our Chinese martial arts system
it has many ideals and philosophies,
Martial arts rules that also include compassion,
to help others.

This is what you Japanese invaders will never
never understand, because you use this strength and change it
into brutal power to terrorize others,
That is why you are not fit to learn Chinese martial arts"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, indeed.

For me, my TCMA training lead me to a better health and personal living at my middle age.

See, life is not a Sport. life is living one has to face one self, one's body, one's mind every second. It doesnt end or start such as in Sport. and human grow old and aging. I still can use if for martial purpose but that is very very slim. I use it every day to condition my body and mind to live and more peacefull, healty, and more satisfaction life.

The Chinese use the words "Wu Shu" or the technology to desolve figthing. Wu kung or the power cultivated to desolve fighting. It is not a sport to compete who is the best but something to desolve fighting for oneself and others with the intention of living a meaningfull constructive life.



Chinese Wu Shu and I would not translate it as martial art because Wu Shu is not martial art but technology and more which serving the human. It is not a sport or competition. This is a different kind of Philosophy or way of living the chinese have that is not understood in general today.



A part of Wu Shu is Yang Sheen or cultivate living. only a few years ago a person in China told me he went up to an old known master in Beijing asking him how good is his fighting can he defeat Mohamad ALi,

The old master said, I dont know who will win if we fought when we were young. may be even Ali will defeat me. However, I do know, with my age now, Mohamad Ali cant do what i do. That is the Yang Shen part of Wu Shu --- able to live a good life until our life ended.

How about you keep peoples religion and ethnic background of out this, ok?

[clam61]

a lot of people make up their own style as well as the history behind it to give it credibility.

a prime example is "buddha palm wing chun", whose history is completely made up



According to signature evidence in this video, IMHO, this type of combinational practice of the set he is doing doesnt work well....

Thus, any one learn this better off learning Hung Gar.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post


For me, my TCMA training lead me to a better health and personal living at my middle age.

See, life is not a Sport. life is living one has to face one self, one's body, one's mind every second. It doesnt end or start such as in Sport. and human grow old and aging. I still can use if for martial purpose but that is very very slim. I use it every day to condition my body and mind to live and more peacefull, healty, and more satisfaction life.

The Chinese use the words "Wu Shu" or the technology to desolve figthing. Wu kung or the power cultivated to desolve fighting. It is not a sport to compete who is the best but something to desolve fighting for oneself and others with the intention of living a meaningfull constructive life.



Chinese Wu Shu and I would not translate it as martial art because Wu Shu is not martial art but technology and more which serving the human. It is not a sport or competition. This is a different kind of Philosophy or way of living the chinese have that is not understood in general today.



A part of Wu Shu is Yang Sheen or cultivate living. only a few years ago a person in China told me he went up to an old known master in Beijing asking him how good is his fighting can he defeat Mohamad ALi,

The old master said, I dont know who will win if we fought when we were young. may be even Ali will defeat me. However, I do know, with my age now, Mohamad Ali cant do what i do. That is the Yang Shen part of Wu Shu --- able to live a good life until our life ended.






How about you keep peoples religion and ethnic background of out this, ok?




What is peoples religion and ethnic background get to do with my post of my experience on TCMA and what Chinese Wu Shu and Wu Kung is?

[Hendrik]

a lot of people make up their own style as well as the history behind it to give it credibility.

a prime example is "buddha palm wing chun", whose history is completely made up



Let's get into technical instead of pointing at which style or which lineage.

[Hendrik]

Billions of chinese people, thousands of years, thousands of lineages, there is no Kungfu for Dummies textbook for TCMA
There is no simple answer here as the culture has gone through buddhism, taoism, confucianism, christianity, islam, hinduism through thousands of years. ....
[/I]



I totally agree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post


For me, my TCMA training lead me to a better health and personal living at my middle age.

See, life is not a Sport. life is living one has to face one self, one's body, one's mind every second. It doesnt end or start such as in Sport. and human grow old and aging. I still can use if for martial purpose but that is very very slim. I use it every day to condition my body and mind to live and more peacefull, healty, and more satisfaction life.

The Chinese use the words "Wu Shu" or the technology to desolve figthing. Wu kung or the power cultivated to desolve fighting. It is not a sport to compete who is the best but something to desolve fighting for oneself and others with the intention of living a meaningfull constructive life.



Chinese Wu Shu and I would not translate it as martial art because Wu Shu is not martial art but technology and more which serving the human. It is not a sport or competition. This is a different kind of Philosophy or way of living the chinese have that is not understood in general today.



A part of Wu Shu is Yang Sheen or cultivate living. only a few years ago a person in China told me he went up to an old known master in Beijing asking him how good is his fighting can he defeat Mohamad ALi,

The old master said, I dont know who will win if we fought when we were young. may be even Ali will defeat me. However, I do know, with my age now, Mohamad Ali cant do what i do. That is the Yang Shen part of Wu Shu --- able to live a good life until our life ended.










What is peoples religion and ethnic background get to do with my post of my experience on TCMA and what Chinese Wu Shu and Wu Kung is?

You're the one that brought up Hebrews and Japanese, the death of Christ.
I would suggest you focus on MA related things and not on those things.
It was very inappropriate.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those are history event of human one could read in the history book.

You certainly can look at it anyway you like. However, that is your view.

And they have what to do with WC or this thread ?

[Hendrik]

And they have what to do with WC or this thread ?



They got everything to do with Wing Chun because Wing Chun is TCMA and there is a serious TCMA discussion in this thread in case you absent minded.


Not to mention, in TCMA or WC or Hungar always Shao Lin, Ng Mui, Chisim, Zen, Daoism..... these are all Got Everything to do with TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They got everything to do with Wing Chun because Wing Chun is TCMA and there is a serious TCMA discussion in this thread in case you absent minded.

So, Hebrews, the Jews killing Christ and the Japanese have to do with this discussion?
Please explain that one.

[Hendrik]

So, Hebrews, the Jews killing Christ and the Japanese have to do with this discussion?
Please explain that one.







1, Go back and read my post, It is not Jews Killing Christ.

It is bad people killing Christ. You need to be clear here.


The bad people in China also Kill BodhiDharma or Damo the founder of Shao Lin martial art. They poison him a few times. and Damo told his students to not defense or revenge.

Damo and Christ are parallel ; no matter it is in China or Middle East, same thing, Great teacher are always great teacher, bad people could be found everywhere.

Great saint is always great saint. It is about Humankind.

To be able to learn from the past and to follow the great saint's teaching is a part of Moduk or TCMA cultivation.




Not to mention, Ng Mui, Chisim, Zen, Shao Lin, Daoism, is alway big part of TCMA for hundreds of Years.






2. Go back to read my post , TCMA is different from Japanese invaders art. Notice. it is Japanese Invaders not Japanese.



If you dont think it is related
Why dont you write to the producer of Ip Man the movie and ask them why they use the Japanese invaders to contrast TCMA?

And Ip Man is the Grand master of Wing Chun isnt it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why dont you write to the producer of Ip Man the movie and ask them why they use the Japanese invaders to contrast TCMA?

YOU brought it up, YOU.

[Hendrik]

YOU brought it up, YOU.


Sure I brought it up because that is the Public Chinese View on TCMA.
Certainly, your view on TCMA doesnt matter when compare with the public Chinese view on their art. what to complain?

Why shoot the messenger? Can you accept it is as it is?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure I brought it up because that is the Chinese View on TCMA.

Certainly, your view on TCMA doesnt matter when compare with the Chinese view. what to complain?

Why shoot the messenger?

Bringing up the holocaust, the death of Christ and Japanese racial bias to justify your view that only a selected few have the "REAL" TCMA is just ridiculous.

[Hendrik]

Bringing up the holocaust, the death of Christ and Japanese racial bias to justify your view that only a selected few have the "REAL" TCMA is just ridiculous.


That is your view.

Why shoot the messenger who present the reality of what TCMA is according to general Chinese?

and also,

Do you read what you read or you read what you think or like to read. That is also an issue only you could solve.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is your view.

Why shoot the messenger who present the reality of what TCMA according to general Chinese?

Your view Hendrick, get it right, YOUR VIEW, you don't speak for all of the TCMA in China, or anywhere else for that fact.
You don't speak for even a small percentage of them.
You speak for yourself and no one else.

[Hendrik]

Your view Hendrick, get it right, YOUR VIEW, you don't speak for all of the TCMA in China, .......




I dont make the movie Ip man, Nor I am the producer.

I just present the movie Ip Man. if you dont like that view write the producer.

get that straight?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dont make the movie Ip man, Nor I am the producer.

I just present the movie Ip Man. if you dont like that view write the producer.

get that straight?

The movie mentioned the Holocaust? Jews and the death of Christ?
No, it didn't.
Don't try to pass the buck.

[Hendrik]

The movie mentioned the Holocaust? Jews and the death of Christ?
No, it didn't.
Don't try to pass the buck.




Understand the following, then you understand.


少林武术因禅武合一而博大精深，以禅入武，习武修禅，绝非自卫强身小技；退则参禅养性修道行，进则护寺报国 救众生，故少林武术又称为“武术禅”。

少林功夫的极致是练就不动心。练就不动心，就不再贪生怕死。不贪生怕死，并不是不热爱生命，相反更热爱生命 。学会热爱生命，才是学禅的真正目的啊!什么样的生命才值得热爱?只有没有烦恼没有痛苦的生命才值得热爱。 要想达到没有烦恼没有痛苦，只有练就不动心。武术禅就是通向不动心的一条大道。


http://www.shaolin.org.cn/html/html/wu/menu1.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

Understand the following, then you understand.


少林武术因禅武合一而博大精深，以禅入武，习武修禅，绝非自卫强身小技；退则参禅养性修道行，进则护寺报国 救众生，故少林武术又称为“武术禅”。

少林功夫的极致是练就不动心。练就不动心，就不再贪生怕死。不贪生怕死，并不是不热爱生命，相反更热爱生命 。学会热爱生命，才是学禅的真正目的啊!什么样的生命才值得热爱?只有没有烦恼没有痛苦的生命才值得热爱。 要想达到没有烦恼没有痛苦，只有练就不动心。武术禅就是通向不动心的一条大道。


http://www.shaolin.org.cn/html/html/wu/menu1.htm

Don't change the subject, YOU brought up the Holocaust, the death of Christ along with Japanese hatred, how do you justify that in a WC thread or MA forum ??

[Hendrik]

少林武术因禅武合一而博大精深，以禅入武，习武修禅，绝非自卫强身小技；退则参禅养性修道行， 进则护寺报国


救众生，

故少林武术又称为“武术禅”。




少林功夫的极致是练就不动心。练就不动心，就不再贪生怕死。不贪生怕死，并不是不热爱生命，相反更热爱生命 。


学会热爱生命，才是学禅的真正目的啊!什么样的生命才值得热爱?

只有没有烦恼没有痛苦的生命才值得热爱。要想达到没有烦恼没有痛苦，只有练就不动心。武术禅就是通向不动心 的一条大道。


http://www.shaolin.org.cn/html/html/wu/menu1.htm


is The Shao Lin view of TCMA direct from China.

[Hendrik]

Don't change the subject, YOU brought up the Holocaust, the death of Christ along with Japanese hatred, how do you justify that in a WC thread or MA forum ??






The movie mentioned the Holocaust? Jews and the death of Christ?
No, it didn't.
Don't try to pass the buck.


Who change the subject into Movie?


and ignoring both the Public Chinese view and Shao LIn view on TCMA?




As a conclusion of this discussion,

What needs to clarify had been clarify in the previous posts,

I can not think for you. and will not stop how you like to think or intepretation because that is your free will.

I am just a presenter, if you dont like what I present, present your own version.

I can only send love and best wishes to you as to end this discussion.

[Hardwork108]

Bringing up the holocaust, the death of Christ and Japanese racial bias to justify your view that only a selected few have the "REAL" TCMA is just ridiculous.

Where the h&ll did you get that from?????


You have seen another genuine practitioner of authentic Wing Chun and you are doing your best to stir up negative feelings towards him.

No wonder you and lkfmdc are forum friends!

GROW UP!

[Hardwork108]

...your view that only a selected few have the "REAL" TCMA is just ridiculous.


His view is a proven fact!

Just look at the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom and then look at the "quality" of kung fu knowledge here in the Kung fu Forum and you will see a membership that is dominated by glorified kickboxers such as yourself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who change the subject into Movie?


and ignoring both the Public Chinese view and Shao LIn view on TCMA?




As a conclusion of this discussion,

What needs to clarify had been clarify in the previous posts,

I can not think for you. and will not stop how you like to think or intepretation because that is your free will.

I am just a presenter, if you dont like what I present, present your own version.

I can only send love and best wishes to you as to end this discussion.

Hendrick, I was told that there could be a communication problem because english is not your first language.
It isn't mine either so...
My Issue was that you brought the Holocaust and the Crucifixtion of Christ.
If you wanna believe that the chinese never shared the "real" kung fu with anyone that;s fine, its your opinion.
It has zero to do with the holocaust or anythign else for that matter.
It's also a hung insult to all the non-chinese that have been doing TCMA for longer than you have been alive and an insult to all the chinese masters that were open with their TCMA.
But you can believe what you want.

[Yoshiyahu]

In my Humble Opinion.

The idea of bad and good Wing Chun is proven by the ability to fight with it.

Someone is known for having Good Gung Fu by all the arses they could beat. The Specifics of a System doesn't matter anymore if you can beat Arse with what you know. Many people will be dying to learn from you. Even if your system is not beautiful and good looking but rather barbaric looking if its effective in a fight people will desire it. We as Wing Chunners, Should try make our goal to make our art more effective.

All diffferent bickering about my sifu my lineage my this my that. But nothing about beating arse with your art.

A true Kung Fu man is known by his skill and now how traditional he is.

As for Chinese hiding their Kung Fu.

Some Chinese try and give their secrets away. But many Westerners don't care for the deeper stuff like Chi,Jing,Thought force and other attributes of True Wing Chun so those chinese may omit saying things to westerners concerning the deeper parts of their arts. Although if that Gwalo inquires of Chinese about the deeper things than he will tell him...

Some Chinese do also omit certain things from their arts to give Westerners part of their art but keeping some of keys for themselves so they can always defeat the westerners.

But one thing we have as westerners is our diet and stronger frames. So even if we get nothing but garbage the Gwalo could innovate the crap he has received along with his own western athelticism will convert the crap art into something great and still be able to beat his Chinese counter part.

Really the student is suppose to be able defeat the sifu once he has mastered the art. A sifu is to train his students to be better than him.

But it is not fair to say all.

Some do some don't but it don't matter. Even if you received form with out some of the corrections eventually your body and mind will adapt an find the corrections. Also self innovations will mold your art more to yourself.

The key should be we are trying to be able defeat most people. So study. Fight and learn from your mistakes and successes. If you feel something is missing from your art or has been hidden by Chinese than spar with them. If you can defeat them then you don't need what ever else they have left out. If you can not defeat them. Than spar with alot an realize what they use to defeat you. Than go home an practice it on your own. Then spar them again!

[clam61]

'western athleticism'

are you suggesting westerners are more athletic? just wondering.

sick man of asia.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well as a whole Westerners are alot bigger in stature and usually phyiscally stronger than most Chinese. Not all you have some really strong Chinese but as a whole the Western ideology is to be cut and muscular and strong. We have all shapes and sizes. But alot of westerners are big and bulky at one time plus our diets also aid in our bulky frame. We are just stronger naturally because of what we eat but usually don't train to condition ourselves properly.


There was a Chinese Sifu in Wing Chun who said that Westerners if they learn WC would do well in Thailand fights because of their stature and phyiscal physiques.

Sick man of America!!!



'western athleticism'

are you suggesting westerners are more athletic? just wondering.

sick man of asia.

[Hardwork108]

In my Humble Opinion.

The idea of bad and good Wing Chun is proven by the ability to fight with it.

That is true on the personal level. For example one may learn good Wing Chun badly and be defeated by one who has learnt a not so good WC who has learnt it properly with dedication and so on.

The fact is there are better styles and schools of kung fu (even withing the same styles).


Someone is known for having Good Gung Fu by all the arses they could beat.

As long as you do it by using kung fu. If not, then it is not kung fu anymore. It could be good karate, kickboxing or BJJ, but not kung fu.


We as Wing Chunners, Should try make our goal to make our art more effective.

That is a very good point. However, nowadays and unfortunately, there are practitioners who think they are doing WC but are in reality practising a modernized mish mash kick boxing style.


A true Kung Fu man is known by his skill and now how traditional he is.

He is known by both!

Without the tradition and as some of the "kung fu-ists" here in the forums have demonstrated, one is often nothing but a Glorified Kickboxer. Of course, by traditional training I am referring to aspects such as internal training; Iron Palm/fist/body; roots and stance training;forms and the the traditional conditioning methods.


Some Chinese try and give their secrets away. But many Westerners don't care for the deeper stuff like Chi,Jing,Thought force and other attributes of True Wing Chun so those chinese may omit saying things to westerners concerning the deeper parts of their arts.

That is a good point. I like to add that from what I have heard from various sifus the Chinese have as a matter of policy kept the higher aspects to themselves. This approach is apparent from the stuff that is missing from traditional karate.


Although if that Gwalo inquires of Chinese about the deeper things than he will tell him...

I don't think that any Chinese sifus will teach the Gwalo or even the Chinese for that matter, just because they "enquire". There are gongs in some kung fu styles that don't officially exist. They will always be taught to students that have proven themselves to the sifu's satisfaction. Many sifus will reserve that stuff for the good Chinese students rather than the good Gwalo. I know for a fact that there are exceptions but that is what happens in general.

This together with the superficiality of the Western approach to kung fu training is reflected by the low quality of kung fu schools in the West and the cluelessness of some (NOT ALL) of this forum's so called kung fu practitioners.


Some Chinese do also omit certain things from their arts to give Westerners part of their art but keeping some of keys for themselves so they can always defeat the westerners.

Very true.


But one thing we have as westerners is our diet and stronger frames.
Our frames may be bigger but our generally unhealthy diet (as compared to the chinese), I don't know about.


So even if we get nothing but garbage the Gwalo could innovate the crap he has received along with his own western athelticism will convert the crap art into something great and still be able to beat his Chinese counter part.

That is just an assumption. There are kung fu methodologies that are great equalizers regarding size and power. Just the suprise element would be enough to take some Westerners out of the fight.


Even if you received form with out some of the corrections eventually your body and mind will adapt an find the corrections. Also self innovations will mold your art more to yourself.

IMHO, without correct tuition from a real sifu one's kung fu will be incomplete, specially regarding the higher levels of training.


The key should be we are trying to be able defeat most people.
The key should be for us to be able to defeat most people USING KUNG FU.:)


So study. Fight and learn from your mistakes and successes. If you feel something is missing from your art or has been hidden by Chinese than spar with them. If you can defeat them then you don't need what ever else they have left out. If you can not defeat them. Than spar with alot an realize what they use to defeat you. Than go home an practice it on your own. Then spar them again!

Most of that is good advice but in my humble opinion one will never learn the higher aspects of kung fu, specially the combat applications of the internals, by just sparring a lot. One needs a good sifu who will teach him the correct exercises to develop such abilities.

The problem nowadays is how to find a good kung fu sifu and not a good kickboxing "sifu".;)

[clam61]

i find westerners to be bigger in bone structure for sure, and definitely larger on average. but lb per lb i dont see a difference in strength aka take a 180lb vs a 180 lb and i dont see a difference. actually the smaller framed 180 lb is sometimes even stronger because more of a % of the weight is muscle. ive seen this in my collegiate wrestling days




Well as a whole Westerners are alot bigger in stature and usually phyiscally stronger than most Chinese. Not all you have some really strong Chinese but as a whole the Western ideology is to be cut and muscular and strong. We have all shapes and sizes. But alot of westerners are big and bulky at one time plus our diets also aid in our bulky frame. We are just stronger naturally because of what we eat but usually don't train to condition ourselves properly.


There was a Chinese Sifu in Wing Chun who said that Westerners if they learn WC would do well in Thailand fights because of their stature and phyiscal physiques.

Sick man of America!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my Humble Opinion.

The idea of bad and good Wing Chun is proven by the ability to fight with it.

Someone is known for having Good Gung Fu by all the arses they could beat. The Specifics of a System doesn't matter anymore if you can beat Arse with what you know. Many people will be dying to learn from you. Even if your system is not beautiful and good looking but rather barbaric looking if its effective in a fight people will desire it. We as Wing Chunners, Should try make our goal to make our art more effective.

All diffferent bickering about my sifu my lineage my this my that. But nothing about beating arse with your art.

A true Kung Fu man is known by his skill and now how traditional he is.

As for Chinese hiding their Kung Fu.

Some Chinese try and give their secrets away. But many Westerners don't care for the deeper stuff like Chi,Jing,Thought force and other attributes of True Wing Chun so those chinese may omit saying things to westerners concerning the deeper parts of their arts. Although if that Gwalo inquires of Chinese about the deeper things than he will tell him...

Some Chinese do also omit certain things from their arts to give Westerners part of their art but keeping some of keys for themselves so they can always defeat the westerners.

But one thing we have as westerners is our diet and stronger frames. So even if we get nothing but garbage the Gwalo could innovate the crap he has received along with his own western athelticism will convert the crap art into something great and still be able to beat his Chinese counter part.

Really the student is suppose to be able defeat the sifu once he has mastered the art. A sifu is to train his students to be better than him.

But it is not fair to say all.

Some do some don't but it don't matter. Even if you received form with out some of the corrections eventually your body and mind will adapt an find the corrections. Also self innovations will mold your art more to yourself.

The key should be we are trying to be able defeat most people. So study. Fight and learn from your mistakes and successes. If you feel something is missing from your art or has been hidden by Chinese than spar with them. If you can defeat them then you don't need what ever else they have left out. If you can not defeat them. Than spar with alot an realize what they use to defeat you. Than go home an practice it on your own. Then spar them again!

As someone who has actually trained in Asia ( Macao) and while there had a chance to cross hands with a few Chinese I cna say that some were very open to western methods and others not so much.
The difference?
The ones that were focused on the combat effectiveness of their system wanted to see how I beat them ( just like I wanted to see how they beat me) and none were more open than their Sifu's.
Those that were more closed minded, tended to be "OK" with what they were doing, even when they lost.
I had a chance to see some very cool stuff and never met a chinese that wasn't open to a friendly exchange.

[m1k3]

That is a good point. I like to add that from what I have heard from various sifus the Chinese have as a matter of policy kept the higher aspects to themselves. This approach is apparent from the stuff that is missing from traditional karate.



I don't think that any Chinese sifus will teach the Gwalo or even the Chinese for that matter, just because they "enquire". There are gongs in some kung fu styles that don't officially exist. They will always be taught to students that have proven themselves to the sifu's satisfaction. Many sifus will reserve that stuff for the good Chinese students rather than the good Gwalo. I know for a fact that there are exceptions but that is what happens in general.

This together with the superficiality of the Western approach to kung fu training is reflected by the low quality of kung fu schools in the West and the cluelessness of some (NOT ALL) of this forum's so called kung fu practitioners.



IMHO, without correct tuition from a real sifu one's kung fu will be incomplete, specially regarding the higher levels of training.

Most of that is good advice but in my humble opinion one will never learn the higher aspects of kung fu, specially the combat applications of the internals, by just sparring a lot. One needs a good sifu who will teach him the correct exercises to develop such abilities.

The problem nowadays is how to find a good kung fu sifu and not a good kickboxing "sifu".;)

I love the "The SECRET powers of KUNG FU!" argument.

You see the only smart people in the world came from China and they were the ONLY ones who could figure out the "HIGHER ASPECTS" of KUNG FU" after they died NO ONE will ever be able to figure them out again, especially some stupid non-Chinese barbarian!

So, if your not being taught by a direct KUNG FU descendant of one of these ANCIENT MASTERS you are not learning REAL KUNG FU! You are just learning glorified kick boxing. You will be severely beaten should you ever cross hands with a TRUE MASTER of a TRUE LINAGE!

IMHO, just by adding a lot of capital letters, this looks very much like the "LEARN THE SECRETS OF" [pick martial art here] ads that you used to see in the back of comic books and adventure magazines.
:rolleyes:

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hendrick and Shadow_Warrior8, I have to admit I am really confused by your posts.

On one hand you argue with t_ that Kung Fu produces great fighters and how dare he say it doesn't.

Then on the other hand you comment that competing or fighting is not important to Kung Fu, There is no need to test your skills and that it is really for developing attributes other than fighting or competitions.

And lastly there are types of Kung Fu that develop secret internal powers, which may or may not have anything to do with fighting or competitions.

It comes off to me as some Kung Fu is good for fighting, some Kung Fu has nothing to do with fighting and it is wrong to criticize any of them.

Maybe one of you could clear this up for me.

Thanks,

Mike


I love the "The SECRET powers of KUNG FU!" argument.

You see the only smart people in the world came from China and they were the ONLY ones who could figure out the "HIGHER ASPECTS" of KUNG FU" after they died NO ONE will ever be able to figure them out again, especially some stupid non-Chinese barbarian!

So, if your not being taught by a direct KUNG FU descendant of one of these ANCIENT MASTERS you are not learning REAL KUNG FU! You are just learning glorified kick boxing. You will be severely beaten should you ever cross hands with a TRUE MASTER of a TRUE LINAGE!

IMHO, just by adding a lot of capital letters, this looks very much like the "LEARN THE SECRETS OF" [pick martial art here] ads that you used to see in the back of comic books and adventure magazines.
:rolleyes:

If you were really sincere about asking us what was it about TCMA like and what we believed, then the last time you asked, we answered

But here you have turned our sincerity into some nonsense post in which you are just embarrassing yourself.

You should just stop talking about TCMA you really show your total lack of knowledge in it, you aint doing yourself any favours.

And the next time you want to ask or discuss with someone about MA, we'd know you are just pulling a fast one.

None of the rubbish you stated above is true. All it takes to learn TCMA is humility, faith and respect for the culture, reverence for the tradition and the Sifu. These are not unique to TCMA but pillars of the asian culture. Its really very simple.

[m1k3]

sw8,

You posted a lot of reasons for training Kung Fu that were valid. There can be more to it than fighting if that is what you are looking for. I did not disagree or mock your answers for they match many of the reasons that I train.

However when HW108 makes a post that more or less says that only the ancient masters had the real kung fu, that it was only taught to handful of people and it was passed along in secrecy and that deserves to be mocked.

There are no SECRETS to fighting, or to meditation, or to relaxation, or to sport. There may be better or worse ways to do something and they will vary from individual to individual but they are there for anyone who wants to look. My kung fu (or glorified kick boxing as HW108 calls it) will be different than yours.

Kung Fu means hard work and hard work is how you improve. Some will work harder than others and their skill will improve more than those that don't work so hard. Some of the hard work is in skills training, some in conditioning and some in the mental aspects of the art.

But there are no SECRETS. That is pseudo science and myth that is put forth to deceive the gullible and foolish. If I say my kung fu is not for fighting but is a tool that helps me control my diabetes through diet and exercise and discipline (which it does) that is a reasonable statement. But if I say my kung fu is not for fighting because I have amazing internal powers or I am too deadly to spar then that type of BS needs to be called out.

IMO HW108 is myth building to increase his status and to feel superior to those of us he call kick boxers.

Be honest, would you attend a class that teaches you SECRET tennis skills or secret chess skills or secret wrestling skills or maybe even secret internet skills?

So, I hope this clears it up. I was not mocking your answer to me and I appreciate your honesty. I just find it hard not to step in when someone posts something that sounds very much like an old add from a comic book selling secret skills to uninformed.

Okay?

[t_niehoff]

Good post, m1k3.

[Hardwork108]

sw8,

You posted a lot of reasons for training Kung Fu that were valid. There can be more to it than fighting if that is what you are looking for. I did not disagree or mock your answers for they match many of the reasons that I train.

However when HW108 makes a post that more or less says that only the ancient masters had the real kung fu, that it was only taught to handful of people and it was passed along in secrecy and that deserves to be mocked.

There are no SECRETS to fighting, or to meditation, or to relaxation, or to sport. There may be better or worse ways to do something and they will vary from individual to individual but they are there for anyone who wants to look. My kung fu (or glorified kick boxing as HW108 calls it) will be different than yours.

Kung Fu means hard work and hard work is how you improve. Some will work harder than others and their skill will improve more than those that don't work so hard. Some of the hard work is in skills training, some in conditioning and some in the mental aspects of the art.

But there are no SECRETS. That is pseudo science and myth that is put forth to deceive the gullible and foolish. If I say my kung fu is not for fighting but is a tool that helps me control my diabetes through diet and exercise and discipline (which it does) that is a reasonable statement. But if I say my kung fu is not for fighting because I have amazing internal powers or I am too deadly to spar then that type of BS needs to be called out.

IMO HW108 is myth building to increase his status and to feel superior to those of us he call kick boxers.

Be honest, would you attend a class that teaches you SECRET tennis skills or secret chess skills or secret wrestling skills or maybe even secret internet skills?

So, I hope this clears it up. I was not mocking your answer to me and I appreciate your honesty. I just find it hard not to step in when someone posts something that sounds very much like an old add from a comic book selling secret skills to uninformed.

Okay?

Before you get too carried away let me state that what I put in my post is a fact. There are stuff that a genuine sifu will not teach you just because you "enquire".

When I talk about higher level of kung fu, I am not talking about magic. As far as authentic training is concerned then one can find schools if one looks hard enough, but even then that does not mean that the sifu will teach you everything. What he will teach will depend on you and on him. Kung fu is taught in stages so it is no good to ask when you are not ready.

Nowadays, there are a lot of so called masters who teach kung fu. The real knowledge has become more difficult to access because of superficiality in what is taught. Furhtermore, in the West there seem to be fewer and fewer people who possess the patience to go through the various stages of kung fu knowledge.

Are there secrets in kung fu? Yes there are!

Why don't you know about them? That is because they are secret!:D

[clam61]

the 'secrets' ... its not magic. these secrets tend to be training methods and fighting philosophies/theories that were deemed valuable. they were kept secret from outsiders at the time for different reason. outsiders means all people outside the KF family, not just whitey

no one is saying that they can only be figured out by ancient chinese. it is possible for anyone to figure these out or arrive at these conclusions. however not everyone has.

trivializing it with a hyperbole and reducing kung fu to just a set of physical movements turns kung fu into glorified kickboxing



I love the "The SECRET powers of KUNG FU!" argument.

You see the only smart people in the world came from China and they were the ONLY ones who could figure out the "HIGHER ASPECTS" of KUNG FU" after they died NO ONE will ever be able to figure them out again, especially some stupid non-Chinese barbarian!

So, if your not being taught by a direct KUNG FU descendant of one of these ANCIENT MASTERS you are not learning REAL KUNG FU! You are just learning glorified kick boxing. You will be severely beaten should you ever cross hands with a TRUE MASTER of a TRUE LINAGE!

IMHO, just by adding a lot of capital letters, this looks very much like the "LEARN THE SECRETS OF" [pick martial art here] ads that you used to see in the back of comic books and adventure magazines.
:rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

There are no SECRETS to fighting, or to meditation, or to relaxation, or to sport. -------



There is no SECRETS however if one doesnt the gate of entering. One cant get there.

if you dont believe me, just describe to us how do you enter alpha state at will? See, there is no SECRETS but how to enter?






There may be better or worse ways to do something and they will vary from individual to individual but they are there for anyone who wants to look. My kung fu (or glorified kick boxing as HW108 calls it) will be different than yours. ------


In general this is correct, but it is so general that the idea bring one almost no where.





Kung Fu means hard work and hard work is how you improve. -----


This is totally misleading. absolutely misleading.


Hard work with a wrong direction screw one up even more or generate garbage.

In fact, Kung Fu must be nature and enjoyable and with ease. otherwise there is not much kung fu there.





Some will work harder than others and their skill will improve more than those that don't work so hard.
Some of the hard work is in skills training, some in conditioning and some in the mental aspects of the art.-----------


My experience , as a very typical Kung Fu practicioner, is one time I spend 3hours a day for 3 years on some skill . and at the end of the 3 years, I realized I was working on a wrong direction which I dont even know.

It takes me to Baisi to another expert and 3 months to take me out of trouble.


There is a different between persistance and hard work.



But there are no SECRETS. That is pseudo science and myth that is put forth to deceive the gullible and foolish. ----------



Who care about Secrets or science or whatever the arguement. Does one have the proper Gate to enter to yield result?

without the gate to enter one cant have kung fu.


So, is excersizing, kicking, punching , learn a set, learn a few move, learn how to spar, and spar kungfu? yes, but that is just very very basic and surface.

Doing things this way will always limited by one's inherit physical fitness.






But if I say my kung fu is not for fighting because I have amazing internal powers or I am too deadly to spar then that type of BS needs to be called out. ------------


The above thinking is from someone doesnt even have clear mind.







So, I hope this clears it up. ------------

You certainly clear up your angle of view.
But you also show your lack in the Kung fu knowledge back ground.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why do some Masters hide parts of their arts?

Why not give all the techniques?

As for hiding techniques. I started a controversial thread dealing with deadly techniques of WC. Many people could care less about those upper level techniques. They feel they are too dangerous,unpractical,useless etc.

So many people short change themselves by not learning every aspect of their desired Art. I would embrace the good and bad in opinion of any art I practice. I wouldn't neglect a technqiue or form because it is so dangerous or deadly!

But some do. Also I truly believe some Sifu's do not teach many techniques to people because they feel they are unworthy. But it doesn't really matter. Because alot of Quasi deadly techniques can be found in books or videos from someone esle who felt it doesn't matter if he gives it away.

I tell you what? Asked your WC Sifu about how to kill with Techniques from Chum Kiu and Bil Gee see what he says? Will he give you this information. Probably not unless he is or was a street fighter and knows that you need everything in your arsenal. But most Sifu's won't teac you how to kill. Just self defense and chi sau and maybe how to break limbs. But how to kill No. You have to go to marines or army for that!

[Yoshiyahu]

Hardwork 108

Please share what a modernize mish mash boxing style of WC would be...Give me some examples?


You stated "internal training; Iron Palm/fist/body; roots and stance training;forms and the the traditional conditioning methods."

I personally don't see this as traditional but I see it as basic. It should be a basic part of You Kung Fu. Otherwise you won't have any Kung! Iron Palm and Body are different Kungs are they not? Lightskills is a Kung. But let me clarify what I mean by traditional I mean some guy who goes around talking alot of knowledge about Tao or I-Ching or some Buddhist scriptures. I hear people who love to qoute things like as excuse on why not to fight.

Personally in my point of View is the chinese don't won't the Gwalo to have all their knowledge so they keep something for themselves so they can seem to have advantage. In other words unless your a relative you will never have all their secrets...woooo mysterious...wow. But I believe through innovation,study and much practice you will develop secrets of your own that may one day be superior to the stuff they surpress. Remember at one time Chen Style Tai Chi was hidden from non-Chen male relatives. Now its open to all. But are all of the fighting applications and techniques shared?

You stated our frames are bigger. But they are also much stronger. For instance if you take 20 westerners at random and 20 chinese from china at random. An train them in lets say Hung Gar the westerners will adapt quicker because they are already stronger and bigger. Were as the chinese may have to start at a lower level because of their weaker frames. For instance you could start iron palm training with sand where the smaller Chinese would have to start with beans. Sand would be too much for him! Just my opinion I could be wrong.


As for Kung fu Styles that equalize against size and power...Who will win between a Chinese Wing Chun guy and big muscular black guy. Both have the same skill level. The chinese guy is 5'4" weighing 130lbs and the big scary black guy is 6'5" and weighs 280lbs of muscle.

If two people fight who have the same skill level the stronger one will win. Skill defeats those who stronger and bigger but possess less skill than you in fighting!
Thats the fear. A bigger guy learning WC could use those very stratgeis against a smaller chinese guy if the his skill was up high enough.



One needs a good sifu who will teach him the correct exercises to develop such abilities.


I agree.

You make great points hardwork



That is true on the personal level. For example one may learn good Wing Chun badly and be defeated by one who has learnt a not so good WC who has learnt it properly with dedication and so on.

The fact is there are better styles and schools of kung fu (even withing the same styles).



As long as you do it by using kung fu. If not, then it is not kung fu anymore. It could be good karate, kickboxing or BJJ, but not kung fu.



That is a very good point. However, nowadays and unfortunately, there are practitioners who think they are doing WC but are in reality practising a modernized mish mash kick boxing style.



He is known by both!

Without the tradition and as some of the "kung fu-ists" here in the forums have demonstrated, one is often nothing but a Glorified Kickboxer. Of course, by traditional training I am referring to aspects such as internal training; Iron Palm/fist/body; roots and stance training;forms and the the traditional conditioning methods.



That is a good point. I like to add that from what I have heard from various sifus the Chinese have as a matter of policy kept the higher aspects to themselves. This approach is apparent from the stuff that is missing from traditional karate.



I don't think that any Chinese sifus will teach the Gwalo or even the Chinese for that matter, just because they "enquire". There are gongs in some kung fu styles that don't officially exist. They will always be taught to students that have proven themselves to the sifu's satisfaction. Many sifus will reserve that stuff for the good Chinese students rather than the good Gwalo. I know for a fact that there are exceptions but that is what happens in general.

This together with the superficiality of the Western approach to kung fu training is reflected by the low quality of kung fu schools in the West and the cluelessness of some (NOT ALL) of this forum's so called kung fu practitioners.



Very true.


Our frames may be bigger but our generally unhealthy diet (as compared to the chinese), I don't know about.



That is just an assumption. There are kung fu methodologies that are great equalizers regarding size and power. Just the suprise element would be enough to take some Westerners out of the fight.



IMHO, without correct tuition from a real sifu one's kung fu will be incomplete, specially regarding the higher levels of training.


The key should be for us to be able to defeat most people USING KUNG FU.:)



Most of that is good advice but in my humble opinion one will never learn the higher aspects of kung fu, specially the combat applications of the internals, by just sparring a lot. One needs a good sifu who will teach him the correct exercises to develop such abilities.

The problem nowadays is how to find a good kung fu sifu and not a good kickboxing "sifu".;)



What I am saying is if you take your average Highschool kid. One is lets say Chinese and other westerner. The westerner is more than likely going to be bigger and stronger because of their culture. I do not mean chinese people who train everyday and develop power for fighting. But I mean the average chinese guy!


i find westerners to be bigger in bone structure for sure, and definitely larger on average. but lb per lb i dont see a difference in strength aka take a 180lb vs a 180 lb and i dont see a difference. actually the smaller framed 180 lb is sometimes even stronger because more of a % of the weight is muscle. ive seen this in my collegiate wrestling days



Great to hear sanjuro. Sounds like you had some great experiences!

I look forward to having something similair.


As someone who has actually trained in Asia ( Macao) and while there had a chance to cross hands with a few Chinese I cna say that some were very open to western methods and others not so much.
The difference?
The ones that were focused on the combat effectiveness of their system wanted to see how I beat them ( just like I wanted to see how they beat me) and none were more open than their Sifu's.
Those that were more closed minded, tended to be "OK" with what they were doing, even when they lost.
I had a chance to see some very cool stuff and never met a chinese that wasn't open to a friendly exchange.

[Shadow_warrior8]

sw8,

You posted a lot of reasons for training Kung Fu that were valid. There can be more to it than fighting if that is what you are looking for. I did not disagree or mock your answers for they match many of the reasons that I train.

However when HW108 makes a post that more or less says that only the ancient masters had the real kung fu, that it was only taught to handful of people and it was passed along in secrecy and that deserves to be mocked.

There are no SECRETS to fighting, or to meditation, or to relaxation, or to sport. There may be better or worse ways to do something and they will vary from individual to individual but they are there for anyone who wants to look. My kung fu (or glorified kick boxing as HW108 calls it) will be different than yours.

Kung Fu means hard work and hard work is how you improve. Some will work harder than others and their skill will improve more than those that don't work so hard. Some of the hard work is in skills training, some in conditioning and some in the mental aspects of the art.

But there are no SECRETS. That is pseudo science and myth that is put forth to deceive the gullible and foolish. If I say my kung fu is not for fighting but is a tool that helps me control my diabetes through diet and exercise and discipline (which it does) that is a reasonable statement. But if I say my kung fu is not for fighting because I have amazing internal powers or I am too deadly to spar then that type of BS needs to be called out.

IMO HW108 is myth building to increase his status and to feel superior to those of us he call kick boxers.

Be honest, would you attend a class that teaches you SECRET tennis skills or secret chess skills or secret wrestling skills or maybe even secret internet skills?

So, I hope this clears it up. I was not mocking your answer to me and I appreciate your honesty. I just find it hard not to step in when someone posts something that sounds very much like an old add from a comic book selling secret skills to uninformed.

Okay?

Appreciate your post,

Well this is what my sigung said to me, there are no secrets, except to those who are qualified to know them

And when he meant qualified, means am I a worthy student for him to teach. Being a traditional teacher if I dont respect the way, the ancestors, the culture, if I dont come to him with humility and faith to just "Follow the methods", and have speculative thoughts of I know better, or Ego such as I have got it- I am a master then, in his opinion,
I am not qualified, hence it is secret to me.

In fact if I might share, all this qi, jing, shen teachings under Sigung Peter Yang are very open and everyone is open to attend. Of course, everyone takes away something different(due to ego, faith, humility, reverence for the system and the ancestors) I would encourage all who want to experience the teachings to join us- the doors and hearts are always open.

To me, I percieve what he is saying as, never think you have got it, or that the master is not qualified you already know, be humble and follow the method- You will get it. Of course he added to be wise, to seek masters closest to the authentic source, thats the best way to learn.

One day someone ask my sigung what was the best way to have abilities like his, he said, dont be attached to the phenomena, just follow the method.
The gentleman ignoring his words said so it is alpha waves or beta waves.
He then asked my siheng to stand up, did a fajing move, and said, I dont know, I just trained as my master taught me. You guys are too smart, too intellectual. To me, I had absolute faith in my master and his methods.
The best way or short cut is to follow the method, no more no less. The biggest problem to learning and self realisation is ego.

[t_niehoff]

m1k3, you might find this interesting:

http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2009/03/irrationality-of-true-faith-head.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Appreciate your post,

Well this is what my sigung said to me, there are no secrets, except to those who are qualified to know them

And when he meant qualified, means am I a worthy student for him to teach. Being a traditional teacher if I dont respect the way, the ancestors, the culture, if I dont come to him with humility and faith to just "Follow the methods", and have speculative thoughts of I know better, or Ego such as I have got it- I am a master then, in his opinion,
I am not qualified, hence it is secret to me.

In fact if I might share, all this qi, jing, shen teachings under Sigung Peter Yang are very open and everyone is open to attend. Of course, everyone takes away something different(due to ego, faith, humility, reverence for the system and the ancestors) I would encourage all who want to experience the teachings to join us- the doors and hearts are always open.

To me, I percieve what he is saying as, never think you have got it, or that the master is not qualified you already know, be humble and follow the method- You will get it. Of course he added to be wise, to seek masters closest to the authentic source, thats the best way to learn.

One day someone ask my sigung what was the best way to have abilities like his, he said, dont be attached to the phenomena, just follow the method.
The gentleman ignoring his words said so it is alpha waves or beta waves.
He then asked my siheng to stand up, did a fajing move, and said, I dont know, I just trained as my master taught me. You guys are too smart, too intellectual. To me, I had absolute faith in my master and his methods.
The best way or short cut is to follow the method, no more no less. The biggest problem to learning and self realisation is ego.

Don;t confuse advanced principles with secrets, too many do that already.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Unfortunately, post#140 on this thead by m1k1....

is all too true.

And although there are several reasons, I think that this is the single biggest reason why kung fu is, for the most part, in the sorry state of affairs that it's presently in.

So here it is again, since it bears repeating:

"I love the 'The SECRET powers of KUNG FU!' argument.

You see the only smart people in the world came from China and they were the ONLY ones who could figure out the 'HIGHER ASPECTS of KUNG FU' after they died NO ONE will ever be able to figure them out again, especially some stupid non-Chinese barbarian!

So, if your not being taught by a direct KUNG FU descendant of one of these ANCIENT MASTERS you are not learning REAL KUNG FU! You are just learning glorified kick boxing. You will be severely beaten should you ever cross hands with a TRUE MASTER of a TRUE LINAGE!

IMHO, just by adding a lot of capital letters, this looks very much like the 'LEARN THE SECRETS OF' [pick martial art here] ads that you used to see in the back of comic books and adventure magazines."

[t_niehoff]

Don;t confuse advanced principles with secrets, too many do that already.

No such thing as "advanced principles".

[sanjuro_ronin]

No such thing as "advanced principles".

Actually, I should have put that in quotations.
Many things are done as "advanced", when in reality they are just "perfected basics".
That said, just as there is "advanced training", there are "advanced principles and concepts".
Just as you don't let a beginner boxer "switch hit" but allow a advanced boxer to do that, if they are good at it.
Things like "stop hits" and such wouldn't be taught to a rookie.

[m1k3]

Actually, I should have put that in quotations.
Many things are done as "advanced", when in reality they are just "perfected basics".
That said, just as there is "advanced training", there are "advanced principles and concepts".
Just as you don't let a beginner boxer "switch hit" but allow a advanced boxer to do that, if they are good at it.
Things like "stop hits" and such wouldn't be taught to a rookie.

I agree completely. I have heard it refered to as the "Crawl, Walk, Run" principle. To learn correctly you have to move through the progression. There are no secrets or hidden knowledge its just build the foundation and then adding to it.

I have to admit I was surprised by the can of worms I opened here. I expected the smug, I know more than you, comments from KungFu108, oops I mean HardWork108. However, he is wrong.

I am not a glorified kick boxer, I am a crappy boxer with some basic grappling skills and a little Wing Chun mixed in. It is my Kung Fu and I like it. I also enjoy lifting heavy things and sparring when I get the chance. Not bad for an old man of 55.

T, thank you for that post, it was very good reading and I totally agree with it.

[t_niehoff]

Actually, I should have put that in quotations.
Many things are done as "advanced", when in reality they are just "perfected basics".
That said, just as there is "advanced training", there are "advanced principles and concepts".
Just as you don't let a beginner boxer "switch hit" but allow a advanced boxer to do that, if they are good at it.
Things like "stop hits" and such wouldn't be taught to a rookie.

I don't like the term "perfected" either. I don't think anything we ever do is "perfected." It is always a WIP. We may do whatever it is really well, but there is always someone who does it better (and if it were perfected, no one could!). These things are always relative.

In my view -- and the evidence bears me out -- for the most part, sound fighting regardless of your style involves basic, fundamental skills, the things you learn in the earliest part of your training. The very best guys use these same fundamental skills when they fight, only they do them very, very well. It is our performance level of the fundamental skills that really matters and makes the difference (and not any so-called "advanced technqiues or advanced concepts").

That said, I do recognize that there are always some limited things that take greater levels of personal development (coordination, timing, etc.) to perform. Does this make them "advanced"? Yes and no. No, in that they are not "better" than the basics ("advanced technqiues" don't beat basic techniques). Yes, in that they are more difficult to perform properly. While the physical performance of these things may be more difficult, their "concept" isn't more advanced.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well said both T and m1k3.

[Hardwork108]

Don;t confuse advanced principles with secrets, too many do that already.

Some would argue that most secrets are advanced principles. However, to understand and fathom them one must dedicate time and training with an actual kung fu sifu.

[m1k3]

Some would argue that most secrets are advanced principles. However, to understand and fathom them one must dedicate time and training with an actual kung fu sifu.

Please clear this up for me. I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, that happens some times. Having survived raising 2 teen age daughters and getting them into adult hood, where they have turned into wonderful ladies and friends, can have a bad impact or your sanity. :p

Are these advanced principles unique to Kung Fu or can they be found in other martial arts as well.

Thank you for your answer.

Mike.

[clam61]

Don;t confuse advanced principles with secrets, too many do that already.

lots of traditional sifus wait a few years until they trust the indoor discipled student before they teach advanecd principles. right or wrong, that is what makes them 'secret' to the public student

[Yoshiyahu]

I have to agree with Terrence there is no such thing as Advance Principals.

Princiapls are the same Wing Chun principals of
1.Center Line
2.Enconmy of motion
3.Sensitivity
4.Proper structure
5.Root
6.Forward Pressure
7.Defend and Attack simultaneously

An others do not change. They remain the same. They never change. Now as for other strategies you may have advcance and basic stratgies from using Fa-Jing to also using your foot to stop kick or attack with your blocking hand. In other word your pak sau can also strike the face. Your Tan Sau can jab the throat. Your Lan Sau can attack the throat. Your Fook Sau can be used as an attack too. But its not an advance principal.


Just my two cents!




No such thing as "advanced principles".

[Hendrik]

Are these advanced principles unique to Kung Fu or can they be found in other martial arts as well.

Thank you for your answer.

Mike.



1, in general, "Crawl, Walk, Run" is true. however, it is not as simple as that for every style of Kung Fu.

and not all kung fu style achieve the same level or depth. Even within the lineage of a same style. There is a different.

2, Advance principle is style based. meaning different style have thier different advance principle.

For example, cooking rice and cooking oat are different in term of the timing, the strength of the fire. and also what to do when the rice is cook to a certain level .....etc. not to mention, is it bake cook, is it steam cook..... all have different result.




Thus, most might know using fire to cook but dont know about bake, steam.....etc, and even thought who knows bake, steam.... etc doesnt know how long the baking time needed before doing something else......



Thus, when a set is taught, usually, these "fire, method, timing...." instruction needs to come with it. But that is not the way in this world. some instruction is purposely missed. some instruction due to the "food" is not cook long enough and the practitioner applied other steps in a wrong time and cause a different result.....ect.


Those are the technical stuffs. and kuen kuit is the instruction, very specific instruction. Sum Faat, or mind method is the instruction on direction and timing of the "cooking".

These all are technology.



Human side, two major fact why these technical stuffs are not passed down.

1, even the sifu could be selfish or lack of security to teach their students. This is known to cause art to totally vanished within 3 generation if every generation kept 30% of the art.

2, EVerything have a consequence. and power development comes with responsibility. a sifu needs to responsibility for the consequence of how the art he released being use. This is a big issue causing advance sifu to end up not teaching and retire into temple. Because they know it is easier to destroy then to build. and most of the time a superior technics released are use for ego and selfish reason by thier student due to the nature of human survival.

And also to cause energy blockage which lead to long term sickness if not being thread immediately is a biggest concern. For no one have a right to cause others to suffer for their life.



In a conclusion, does the WING ChuN fast acceleration power generation exist? Yes, and it was actually substitute by other technics such as sun punch in the evolution.

There is no secret, there is no myth but lots of technology. and these technology cant be known by speculation the mind. one needs know the different between rice and oat, bake, steam... the strenght of fire... when to take out the cook rice and place it on top of ice to make a different favour. when to take out the cook rice and fried to make fried rice......

People most of the time dont listern and keep speculating and ask for scientific proof.... but they dont even know the exist of ice cold rice and fried rice. See, rice is not just rice.... even fried rice there is a different to fried it with water then add oil or fried it with oil which become toxic.

and not to mention, why to reveal the art to those who will use for thier selfrighteous and ego blindly? bottom line, TCMA is not a sport and damage often cannot be reversed. That is consequence and responsibility.

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork 108

Please share what a modernize mish mash boxing style of WC would be...Give me some examples?

I always use the following example (because I have seen it). A fighter hopping around like Tae Kwon Do fighter (or a-la Bruce Lee) while using WC chain punching. Every time he is attacks he hops back. Kicks unnecessarilly more as a result of insecurity (keeping the opponent away) than for results. There are such fighters in the world who claim to practice one style of kung fu or another.

What I described above is not kung fu but a kickboxing mish mash. You can see some similar stuff on YouTube with so called "kung fu" fighters.



You stated "internal training; Iron Palm/fist/body; roots and stance training;forms and the the traditional conditioning methods."

I personally don't see this as traditional but I see it as basic. It should be a basic part of You Kung Fu. Otherwise you won't have any Kung! Iron Palm and Body are different Kungs are they not? Lightskills is a Kung.

These basics are all part of traditional kung fu.:)

There are many practitioners of "modern", "improved" or "New and Functional" styles of "kung fu" that do not have proper kung fu bases/roots, hence the hopping around. Some of them do not see relevance in Iron Palm/Fist/body/ training. They do not comprehend the internals and the distinct power that can be derived from them. So what they actually practice is a kung fu flavored form of kickboxing.

Some of these people go on to teach this "kung fu" to others and contribute to all the mis-information and misunderstanding that is so prevalent today. It is a sad state of affairs.


But let me clarify what I mean by traditional I mean some guy who goes around talking alot of knowledge about Tao or I-Ching or some Buddhist scriptures. I hear people who love to qoute things like as excuse on why not to fight.

Those are the fakes.

I have met sifus who understand the phylosophy behind the various belief systems and may even practise them but they CAN fight.


Personally in my point of View is the chinese don't won't the Gwalo to have all their knowledge so they keep something for themselves so they can seem to have advantage. In other words unless your a relative you will never have all their secrets...woooo mysterious...wow.

I understand that approach. The real world is a nasty place and I suppose in the old days it could have been much nastier for some. Furthermore, the Chinese see the knowledge of the higher aspects of their martial arts as treasures so why should they give that away just to anyone. There are not cultures in the world that give away their treasures.



But I believe through innovation,study and much practice you will develop secrets of your own that may one day be superior to the stuff they surpress.

I believe that one can discover some aspects through personal practise and research. However, I still believe that the higher aspects are beyond most if not all people. For those one would need a real sifu/master who is willing to teach.

My reasoning is this: a lot of high level stuff was developed through generations of trial and error and improvements. So I believe it is difficult to develope to such a high level in one lifetime through personal investigation.

There is also an important factor that has to be considered. The internals are where most kung fu secrets reside. So to get to the higher levels one has to explore this aspect of kung fu. Without a teacher this is impossible and can even be dangerous. Other times some external exercises that one does may go against the internals and hence nulifiy them. The whole thing is a mine field.


Remember at one time Chen Style Tai Chi was hidden from non-Chen male relatives. Now its open to all. But are all of the fighting applications and techniques shared?

Of course not. Nor are the internal linking mechanisms and their training. Nor they should share them with just anyone. These arts are treasures and should not be given away. Having said that, I believe that most of the time one who has been blessed with the right sifu and the right dedication will be exposed to plenty of good stuff to make his kung fu quest very fruitful.

On the 'negative' side resulting from this secrecy, a lot of so called kung fu or ex-kung fu practitioners coming out with comments such as "kung fu doesn't work"; "kung fu is weak"; "kung fu needs crosstraining to make it functional"; "Kung fu does not address groundfighting"; "Internals are fantasy"; "Internals don't exist";"kung fu has to be trained in the ring to make it functional" and the list goes on.

Those who actually train kung fu in authentic schools laugh at these ignorant and distastful comments, knowing deep inside that they are made by people who have not looked deep or just have been unlucky in finding proper schools.



As for Kung fu Styles that equalize against size and power...Who will win between a Chinese Wing Chun guy and big muscular black guy. Both have the same skill level. The chinese guy is 5'4" weighing 130lbs and the big scary black guy is 6'5" and weighs 280lbs of muscle.

If two people fight who have the same skill level the stronger one will win. Skill defeats those who stronger and bigger but possess less skill than you in fighting!
Thats the fear. A bigger guy learning WC could use those very stratgeis against a smaller chinese guy if the his skill was up high enough.[/quote]

That is very correct. When all else is equal the person with the more power will win.

I believe the internals are the equalizers. The size to power ratio of someone who has trained internals can be very surprising. This has to be felt to be believed, and as you probably know, this stuff is very difficult to explain to people who don't train kung fu or train kung fu using a kickboxing methodology.




You make great points hardwork

Thank you and so do you.:)

[clam61]

in the sum nung lineage of WC, we are taught to hop around. not like TKD or boxers, but we hop and move on our toes

staying flatfooted and motionless is ridiculous during a fight.

[Hardwork108]

Please clear this up for me. I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, that happens some times. Having survived raising 2 teen age daughters and getting them into adult hood, where they have turned into wonderful ladies and friends, can have a bad impact or your sanity. :p

That is why I don't have kids.;)


Are these advanced principles unique to Kung Fu or can they be found in other martial arts as well.

All martial arts will have their advanced principles. That is stuff one will truly understand only after going through stages of understanding and body development.

That is even true for kickboxing. One will need to learn the basic footwork before venturing into the advanced stuff. Until one does the advanced stuff will be a "secret" to them. Meaning that generally what we don't know can be classified as a secret.

As far as authentic kung fu goes the secret stuff is more profound. Lets take blocking as an example. This exists in all striking arts. As you know, the main purpose of blocking is to deflect or redirect an incoming strike.

There are many levels to blocking as far as kung fu is concerned. Yes you can deflect a blow on a basic level. On a not so basic level you can redirect it. On a more advanced level you can bring the principle of "sticking" where you will "stick" to the block and follow it when the opponent retreats his failed strike, thus closing down, jamming and striking the opponent.

Sticking is a secret principle to those who are not familiar with it and that could include dan grade black belt karate kai who have trained in external styles such as Shotokan.
Furthermore it is a skill that in itself has a many levels where one can improve. That means working on the internal aspects that relate to "relaxation", clear mind and general sensitivity training. The end result should be the ability to know what the opponent is doing before he manifests it physically, by just touching (bridging) him. Again, secret stuff if one has not been exposed to it.

Unfortunately the nowadays the approach is "get in the ring and hit the other guy more times then he hits you and build your skills using that as a bench mark". As much as this approach may make sense to the uninitiated, it takes one away from valuable kung fu combat principles, knowledge and the higher principles.


Thank you for your answer.

You are welcome and I hope I answered your question. If not then let me know.:)

[t_niehoff]

Theories are great, but can YOU do it?

If YOU can do it regularly and successfully in fighting and against competent fighters, then and only then, can you say something works for you -- and that it may work for someone else. But, if you aren't doing that, then you have no real clue. All you are spouting in that case is fantasy (what you imagine will work).

I always find it amusing that people that aren't doing it (in fighting), can tell others how it should be done. This is the blind leading the blind. It is listening to some nongolfer or poor golfer tell you how others should golf correctly.

Everyone has an opinion. The real issue is: what informs that opinion? If it is anything other than genuine fighting experience -- doing what they talk about in fighitng -- it is fantasy (what they imagine).

[Hardwork108]

in the sum nung lineage of WC, we are taught to hop around. not like TKD or boxers, but we hop and move on our toes

staying flatfooted and motionless is ridiculous during a fight.

I am not familiar with your system eventhough we should have plenty of shared stuff with you as we are a Mainland Chinese lineage as well.

Also, I never said that we stay montionless in a fight either. We use "rooted" stepping using our heals.:)