Gene's coverage of the CA Sanshou/San Da situation

[GeneChing]

I moved a lot of threads off our Tiger Claw’s KungFuMagazine.com Championship & Shark City Nationals (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=933058) to this one because that was getting distracting. It makes for a slightly uneven archival read now, but if tangential threads bother you, wtf are you doing reading a web forum.

[Shaolindynasty]

San shou is illegal in san jose? I think someone forgot to tell cung le:D

[GeneChing]

It's not illegal to practice sanshou. It's illegal to hold sanshou competitions. The California State Athletic Commission banned both professional and amateur sanshou and muay thai kickboxing events. Muay thai has regained approval, but sanshou is still banned. I discuss this in our new issue, the March April 2009 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=911625), which just hit the newsstands.

[Shaolindynasty]

It's kinda goofy that sanshou and muay thai aren't legal yet they have mma fights, what's up with that? Is there some politic involved here:confused:

[xcakid]

It's kinda goofy that sanshou and muay thai aren't legal yet they have mma fights, what's up with that? Is there some politic involved here:confused:

Naaaahhhhh, not CA. That bastion of leftist liberal feel good laws that don't makes sense. Surely you jest.

[Hardwork108]

It's kinda goofy that sanshou and muay thai aren't legal yet they have mma fights, what's up with that? Is there some politic involved here:confused:

Well something is fishy for sure.:confused:

[GeneChing]

They rallied and were legalized. The article I mentioned above is about Female Fury (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52267), which was a Muay Thai match. I don't see any movement from the Sanshou circles here to get the ban lifted. It would take some legal fees to put up that fight and nobody has the cash. It's a shame really.

[GLW]

Right you are about there needing to be some legal money behind the push if Sanshou folks wanted to get legal. Seeing as how there have been several names who took the approach that if they couldn't run Sanshou they would "run it" into the ground, there is really no one who is recognized as a leader there that would be willing or able to put up such funds. (Cung Le is a pro now and not a Sanshou person per se any longer).

More and more states are doing this. In Texas, it is not exactly illegal but it does require folks to be properly licensed. Here, it is more a matter of separating the fighters and promoter from fees instead of the public safety idea. In California, they have always paid just a bit more than lip service to that old public safety idea....it is not JUST about the money.

However, if point sparring is allowed, continuous sparring with light contact would probably be legal as well. Of course, the contact aspect has to be downplayed...but if anyone reading this has ever competed in point sparring and NEVER had contact, give that man a CEEGAR...

The distinction between those who get hit and those who do not is widening.... and you got to wonder how much of a hand the Boxing folks wanting to protect their rice bowl had to do with this.

[GeneChing]

Cung's 2007 Art of War went sour with the USAWKF Team trial situation. He spoke about in our 2008 July/August cover story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=769) Cung Le Brings Sanshou into the Cage (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=773). Given how the sanshou went for America in 2008, well, hopefully you all read Beijing in their own words: American Athletes Reflect on the Wushu Tournament Beijing By Elly Duchamp in our 2009 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797).

BTW, our latest issue, the 2009 March/April Wudang Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=803), is on the newsstands. I have two articles that grapple with the state of sanshou in this issue: Female Fury, which was mentioned above, and Art of War VII, which is about the US Open International Martial Arts Championship XII (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52265). I also have an article about the state of kickboxing in China titled Wulin Feng: USA Versus China. I'm working on another addressing that topic right now for our next issue, and have two pieces on sanshou in there already. That issue will drop on 4/7/2009, so stay tuned (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html).

Meanwhile, who's coming to our tournament?

[lkfmdc]

Gene wrote a very nice piece about the situation with Sanshou/San Da with a female perspective in the newest issue (GO OUT AND BUY IT!)

He raises an interesting point at the beginnning, ie that CA banned BOTh sanshou/sanda AND muay thai yet the Thai community fought and got it leagalized again while the sanshou folks just packed it up, depressing :o

[GLW]

That is typical. You have to have some folks there that are interested in the sport or art and not just being the leader and their own rice bowl.

[GeneChing]

We're struggling to keep Sanshou going here in America, but the legal/political situation in CA was a heavy blow. It's what I was talking about in our Tiger Claw’s KungFuMagazine.com Championship & Shark City Nationals thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53126).

And for those of you who want to know which issue we're talking about, it's this one: March/April 2009 Wudang Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53091). I may merge this thread with that someday.

[GeneChing]

I'm using lkfmdc's Gene's coverage of the CA Sanshou/San Da situation thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=916638)to ttt this one. We can take up discussion of the state of sanshou in the state of CA there.

[jimbob]

May I ask why the decision was taken to ban SanShou in Ca? Forgive me for not being able to buy the magazine - life here in the Black Forest affords little in the way of English reading material, let alone English Kung Fu reading material.

Seems a strange decision.

[lkfmdc]

Apparently, according to a conversation I had with the former head (Garcia?) of the commission, there is a law on the books RE kickboxing dating back to the PKA/American kb period that says you can not throw in a kickboxing match.

When I spoke to Garcia, well over a year ago, he said they wanted to change the law so they could do both San Shou/San Da and Muay Thai. Now, thanks to Gene, we know that Thai is back... so what happened with San Da?

Gene, write more on this, then surely we will buy the magazine to read more ;)

[lkfmdc]

What killed San Shou/San Da in the US? It's an interesting question, I can give you a quick summary of some of the issues

Ironically, san shou/san da (let's just say sanshou for now) was first made illegal in NY. The law that made MMA illegal was used to close down pretty much all martial arts events here for almost 2 years.

The two most progressive hubs for Sanshou were NY and San Jose (Cung Le obviously). At the time both NY and San Jose were pushing both amateur sanshou tournaments and starting pro leagues. We both figured it was going to take 3 to 5 years to get pro going.

After doing my third pro event, I found out sanshou was illegal. It took us two years just to get amateur approved, pro is STILL ILLEGAL

The NY commission then hammered us again by closing many venues to us because of illegal MMA fights, ie close down anyplace that can do a martial art event so no one can do an illegal one

IN San Jose, Cung still represented hope to all of us. But it seemed that just as we were pushing the sport forward, those who had once controlled the sport tried to sabatoge us. IE if they couldn't be total dictators and control everything, they'd rather destroy it

I'm not naming any names of course (shawn liu and anthony goh)

Three years in a row the old powers tried to schedule something to conflict with Cung's event. I know it discouraged and tired out all of us, the entire community. Then the legal ban hit in CA.

[Exadon]

I'm not naming any names of course .

I knew where this thread was going to hit this point...at some point or another haha...
ahh

[GeneChing]

... and I'm still on the story. The sanda situation in America and worldwide is of great concern to me personally (as well as professionally, of course).

It would take a lot of energy for sanda to rally back to a legal status in CA and no one is stepping forward. Due to the predominance of MMA, it's hard to market. Frankly, few really remember what sanda is and few really care anymore. Given that hurdle, it's hard to make an event pay out. Cung has been the most successful throwing his Art of War events - we've covered pretty much all of those. But now, he can't do the sanda, so that sort of defeats the purpose of it all.

lkfmdc is right - one of the the big problems with sanda is throws. That's exacerbated by the leitai, but then most people are running sanda in a ring nowadays anyway.

[lkfmdc]

I knew where this thread was going to hit this point...at some point or another haha...
ahh

I hope you know not to take it too personally :D

I already told you I like him personally and he's a great teacher, I just don't like his politics ;)

[lkfmdc]

Gene, you really should do a history of San Shou in the US, it's fascinating and has as much politics as anything! It might even be "controversial" ;)

[Exadon]

I hope you know not to take it too personally :D

I already told you I like him personally and he's a great teacher, I just don't like his politics ;)

haha nooo I don't take much of anything personally, and I know where you stand. I just knew that is where this thread was going to go. and thought it was funny that I was right.

p.s. If it makes you feel better, you can buy me a ticket to CA for the tourny (I live on the East side) :)

[Exadon]

Gene, you really should do a history of San Shou in the US, it's fascinating and has as much politics as anything! It might even be "controversial" ;)

that would be sweet. I would like to read about it! I am a sad panda that I only get one mag every 2 months :(

[lkfmdc]

With almost two decades of history, it's easy to forget or not know some of the major developments in the sport. SO here is an early history of San Shou/San Da

1991
1st World Wushu Championship
In an attempt to foster a uniquely Chinese international sport, the Beijing based International Wushu Federation (IWUF) offers the first world wushu championship in Beijing. San Shou is offered for the first time as an open competition with no military ties. Jason Yee of the United States wins a Bronze medal, being the first American to medal. China, of course, has a strong showing, 4 of its 5 team members win. Only one Chinese team member does not place

1992
Newly exposed to the sport, the North American Chinese matial Arts Federation (NACMAF) under Tai Yim and Anthony Goh invite a Russian team to fight an American team in Baltimore MD. Russia sends it's "C Team". It's A team is in Beijing (where they KO all five of their Chinese opponents) and their B Team is in LA fighting Benny The Jet's Team of kickboxers. Despite warnings from Daniel Weng and David Ross that the US team is inadequately prepared to counter the Russian team's strong wrestling, the organizers move forward. In an embarassing display, all the US team loses.

1994
NYCMAC All Chinese tournament
NY based promoters David A Ross and Steve Ventura introduce San Shou to the Northeast by offering San Shou as part of their yearly tournament. Future San Shou champion and san Da coach Mike Altman appears for the first time in San Shou at this event.

1995
NYCMAC Full Contact Kung Fu Championships
In an attempt to promote San Shou before the 3 World Wushu Championships are to be held in Baltimore MD, New York promoters David A Ross and Steve Ventura offer 15 pre set matches like a boxing card. This event was the first pre-set card of San Shou fights ever in any country and at the time. The Chinese leadership of the new USA WKF felt it was a "silly idea" but now "super fights" are the most important driving force in the sport.

3rd World Wushu Championships
The first world San Shou championship to be held outside of Asia has great fights, particularly between Brazil and Russia, but the event is so grossly mismanaged by the Chinese leadership of the new USA WKF that they have to file bankrupcy and the Beijing based International Wushu Federation (IWUF) claims they will never again allow a non-Asian country to host a world championship!

1997
Jason Yee vs Cung Le PPV
The Chinese led USA WKF offers San Shou's first and only PPV. They borrow the idea of a card (what an original idea!) and do in fact field some great San Shou fighters. The main event is of epic proportions. But once again poor organization kills the event. The Lei Tai platform proves unsuitable for a PPV. The fighters are also asked to fight with no equipment but not paid. Worst of all, the idea of painting a pretty dragon on the canvas turns out to kill the whole event because it makes the mat so slippery that people are literally falling over just trying to punch and kick.

4th World Wushu Championships
Italy is successful in convincing China to give a Western country a chance to host a world championship. Event is very well run and Cung Le win's his second Bronze Medal

FULL CONTACT ACTION April 20, 1997
NY promoters David Ross and Steve Ventura move forward with their vision for the sport. On this card are Al Lourieux (the first American to ever win a silver medal at the world championships) and Rudi Ott (current IKF world San Da champion).

1998 FULL CONTACT ACTION 2 Sunday, March 15, 1998
Another first for NY promoters David Ross and Steve Ventura. For the first time anywhere, San Shou is done in a boxing ring. Again, people said it couldn't be done, now it is standard practice. On this card are Max Chen, Elan Schwarz, and Sid Berman

Battle for the Belts Sunday, June 14, 1998
NY promoters David Ross and Steve Ventura oofer the first ever official professional San Shou match (ie both sanctioned and both fighters are paid). Billy Maysonet (Ortiz Chinese Boxing) DEF. Keith Youngs (AFC Kickboxing) by judges' decision. SIMPLY AN AWESOME FIGHT!!!!!!

While non-Chinese promoters are moving the sport forward (and the Russian are about to make a huge step forward) teh Chinese led USA WKF if floundering. It's "national championships" have less than 25 San Shou athletes.

Draka PPV Septemer 25, 1998
San Shou by any other name? Former members of Russia's San Shou governing body introduce their version of professional San Shou fighting and get enough sponsors to puton a pay per veiw. The event highlights US fighter Cung Le and gets organizations like the ISKA interested in the sport

Chinese business man begins "San Da Wang" or "King of San Da" in China as a professional circuit. It is carded matches in a ring, and they allow knee strikes. This is a change, actually reverting to the old pre 1991 military San Shou rules

1999
June 1999: David Ross and Steve Ventura introduce the "New York Showdown" series of events which feature both amateur and professional San Shou.

2001

Chinese owned "world sport" promotion attempts show in NYC and gives the sport a serious black eye (click link to read more)
(http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/worldsport.html)

[jimbob]

Thank you Dave, Thank you Gene

Interesting info about the Cung Le/Jason Yee fight Dave. I'd read (in I believe Gene's mag) where Jason had said he had a lot of trepidation throwing kicks in that fight, but I didn't understand why.

Thanks again - I hope things improve. The thai boxers are allowed to throw.....

[lkfmdc]

I should note that in NY the ban started in late 2001 and continued into 2003. And just as the events began again in NY, Cung experienced problems with the "old guard" scheduling events in conflict with his... by 2005 things had sort of come to a grinding halt

[Lucas]

do you find a lot of fighters who start fighting in sanda eventually make a permanent switch to MMA?

what do you suppose the ratio is on that?

[lkfmdc]

do you find a lot of fighters who start fighting in sanda eventually make a permanent switch to MMA?

what do you suppose the ratio is on that?

in CA, due to no choice, it looks like all teh San Da people are doing MMA

here in NY we can still get amateur san da matches every once in a while, and we like to still do stand up, so my guys are doing San Da, Muay Thai and MMA as the opportunities come

[Lucas]

that makes sense.

its a **** shame tho. i always liked the excitement of sanda.

[Pork Chop]

That's a HUGE loss considering Cali has:
Cung & his guys, Rudi, Duncan, Madigan & the Oakland Crew, and lately even Mike Altman (who I guess is mma full time now).

[GeneChing]

And I totally agree with Lucas - I think sanshou is an incredibly exciting spectator sport. The "toss 'em off the leitai" concept brings a whole new level of excitement and opens up a ton of unique techniques to the game.

In following up with lkfmdc's stray comment on the Tiger Claw’s KungFuMagazine.com Championship & Shark City Nationals thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=916871&postcount=22):

Three years in a row the old powers tried to schedule something to conflict with Cung's event. refer to my 2008 July/August (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=769) cover story, Cung Le Brings Sanshou (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=773) into the Cage - in particular the section "Sanshou in America".

I have two sanshou-focused feature articles in the next issue (which drops 4/6, so be patient). These are coming from an entirely different angle, somewhat in counterpoint to these last articles, but its all parts of the same story - the saga of sanshou.

[lkfmdc]

Gene
If the summary is at all useful to you, feel free to use it :D



I have two sanshou-focused feature articles in the next issue (which drops 4/6, so be patient). These are coming from an entirely different angle, somewhat in counterpoint to these last articles, but its all parts of the same story - the saga of sanshou.

I'll be sure to buy them :)