Abdominal Breathing in Strong Physical Exercises

[SteveLau]

It is often said that abdominal breathing is good for strong physical exercises. I have just tried so in jogging, with sprint too. I found that I was less tired, and thus faster in recovering my breath. Upper lung breathing is voluntary and needs one to expend more energy. So the question that I have in mind is - is there any good in upper lung breathing then?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[taai gihk yahn]

It is often said that abdominal breathing is good for strong physical exercises. I have just tried so in jogging, with sprint too. I found that I was less tired, and thus faster in recovering my breath. Upper lung breathing is voluntary and needs one to expend more energy. So the question that I have in mind is - is there any good in upper lung breathing then?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

well, to start with, these terms, though not incorrect, are somewhat less precise than they could be - "abdominal" versus "upper lung"; to be a bit more specific, it's better, IMHO, to consider the degree of relative recruitment of the different muscles of respiration: for the "abdominal" style breathing, the emphasis is on maximal excursion of the respiratory diaphragm; for "upper lung" it is more usage of the accessory respiratory muscles: scalenes, sternocleidomastoid, pectorals; also, in both cases, the intercostals are working as well, to varying degrees depending on location emphasis;

that said, as far as your question - I think it is an interesting one; I am not sure that there is a definitive answer either - in general, the tendency is to believe that respiration using the resp. diaph. is "better", as it does pull more air into the lungs; certainly, it has a more relaxatory effect on the system in general; this appears to have a parasympathetic effect; 'upper" chest breathing tends to have the opposite effect, relating more to a stress / sympathetic response - and people who are accessory muscle breathers tend to be under more generalized stress as well - it creates sort of a feed back loop, where you get "stuck" breathing w/the accessories;

however, I personally believe that depending on the circumstances, the body will "naturally" adopt one or the other style of breathing, depending on what it wants to do: my personal experience is based on what I find happens when I adopt a relaxed posture (usually a yoga "corpse" posture), and just allow the breath to self-regulate: this can involve any combination of deep inhales / exhales as well as relative shallow / fast ones - the sequence can mix unpredictable (e.g. - a few cycles of deep breaths spontaneously followed by more rapid ones); there can also be deep holds: inhaling all the way and the breath "stopping" for a while (or exhale as well); in other words, my subjective sense is that the body "uses" the shallow breathing as part of its overall strategy to self-regulate the breath; after some time of doing this (5 - 10 min., approx.), there will be a shift into a more regular, deeper breath, but to get there there is that period of almost erratic breath that includes shallow / "upper" chest breathing; again, this is my personal experience, it works for me;

so, in that particular case, at least, I find that sort of "upper" breathing to be beneficial, as part of an overall process;

curious to hear more of your thoughts / experiences on the matter

[sanjuro_ronin]

however, I personally believe that depending on the circumstances, the body will "naturally" adopt one or the other style of breathing, depending on what it wants to do: my personal experience is based on what I find happens when I adopt a relaxed posture (usually a yoga "corpse" posture), and just allow the breath to self-regulate: this can involve any combination of deep inhales / exhales as well as relative shallow / fast ones - the sequence can mix unpredictable (e.g. - a few cycles of deep breaths spontaneously followed by more rapid ones); there can also be deep holds: inhaling all the way and the breath "stopping" for a while (or exhale as well); in other words, my subjective sense is that the body "uses" the shallow breathing as part of its overall strategy to self-regulate the breath; after some time of doing this (5 - 10 min., approx.), there will be a shift into a more regular, deeper breath, but to get there there is that period of almost erratic breath that includes shallow / "upper" chest breathing; again, this is my personal experience, it works for me;


I agree, I noticed this too.
I don't recall a Stength coach ever telling mt to "reverse breathe" when I did a deadlift ( for example), but I did it, naturally.

[chaiwai]

Abdominal breathing is good for sharp exhalations such as when you punch. I am not sure you can breath deeply all the the time, let's say when you are sparring.

[SteveLau]

Gentlemen, thanks for your posts first.

taai gihk yahn,
I like your post. Because of its technicality, it looks like you have considerable knowledge in sports science.

chaiwai,
Yes, we cannot and need not breathe deeply all the times during sparring. However
abdominal breathing and deep breathing is necessary and good during vigorous activity like sparring. Case in point - I have seen a sparring session (preliminary). Not contact has occurred. It lasted for about 30 seconds because one side said he needed to stop. He was out of breath. I strongly believe what happened was mainly because he had no good breathing skill.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question. What usage does upper lung (chest) breathing have in strong physical exercises?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Lacerto]

I learned a breathing technique that incorporates both. Before I was taught this I practiced diaphragm breathing for about 3-6 months while meditating. Sifu called it 'Reverse Breathing' or 'Fire Breathing'


Breath in for 6 seconds from the diaphragm.
Hold 2-3 Seconds
Breath in for 6 seconds from the lungs, or upper chest, or whatever.
Hold 2-3 seconds
Exhale lungs for 6 seconds
Hold for 2-3 seconds
Exhale diaphragm for 6 seconds
Hold 2-3 seconds with no air


Obviously you can adjust the times with whatever you're comfortable with, you don't want to over exert yourself and cause damage to your diaphragm or who knows what else.

Something I just caught myself doing that you want to watch out for, make sure that you are drawing in new air with your lungs and not simply moving the air from the diaphragm to the lungs.

I was told to use this for standing meditation. I've since used it while running (without the pausing and the times, just whatever timing is necessary), weight training, obviously while drilling forms, and while swimming.

I was told this generates more qi than normal breathing or diaphragm breathing. I've combined it with some beginner visualization with pretty interesting results.

[Mr Punch]

well, to start with, these terms, though not incorrect, are somewhat less precise than they could be...For once I think your semantic differences here are not so important as what's being done.


so, in that particular case, at least, I find that sort of "upper" breathing to be beneficial, as part of an overall process;

curious to hear more of your thoughts / experiences on the matterWell, in quite a few yoga texts I've read (by doctors and some fairly high yoga types) they've described upper breathing as inefficient and not so good. But that's if it's untrained. As part of a full yogic breathing regime and then introduced into your daily life, well, at first you see this breath and that breath, and then you see a breath is just a breath... :)

But yeah, I do find upper breathing, rabbit breathing etc all have their uses, from weightlifting to martial arts to sitting on the toilet...

[Mr Punch]

I learned a breathing technique that incorporates both. Before I was taught this I practiced diaphragm breathing for about 3-6 months while meditating. Sifu called it 'Reverse Breathing' or 'Fire Breathing'...Sounds pretty much like yogic sectional breathing. The details would be how you use your muscles exactly and the positions of your abdomen.


I was told this generates more qi than normal breathing or diaphragm breathing.Well, since qi basically means breath, yeah, you can safely say deep breathing generates more breath than normal breathing!


I've combined it with some beginner visualization with pretty interesting results.Go on then, what would they be?

[Hardwork108]

It is often said that abdominal breathing is good for strong physical exercises. I have just tried so in jogging, with sprint too. I found that I was less tired, and thus faster in recovering my breath. Upper lung breathing is voluntary and needs one to expend more energy. So the question that I have in mind is - is there any good in upper lung breathing then?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

What everybody seems to have missed is the fact the correct lower abdominal breathing is taught in many authentic kung fu schools and plays a fundamental part in power issuance during strikes. Various types of expansion in the lower abdomen and kidney areas coordinated with "sinking" will reflect on the impact of one's strikes. This takes practice and is part and parcel of training many authentic kung fu styles.

I was always taught that relaxed lower abdominal breathing would also help general stamina during training and combat. I was also taught that keeping the breathing in the lower abdomen during daily activity was beneficial for general health and longevity.

On the other hand, I was taught that upper body breathing was not healthy nor natural.

[TaichiMantis]

It is often said that abdominal breathing is good for strong physical exercises. I have just tried so in jogging, with sprint too. I found that I was less tired, and thus faster in recovering my breath. Upper lung breathing is voluntary and needs one to expend more energy. So the question that I have in mind is - is there any good in upper lung breathing then?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

Yes, when giving birth!:cool:

[Egg fu young]

During boxing the breaths are seemingly more shallow exhaled during each punch. When you go to the corner your cornerman sometimes pulls the front of your trunks and has you deep breath to re supply your starved body with oxygen but other then that it's been my experience that most intense exercise usually has me breathing from the top of my chest not the bottom.

[Mr Punch]

What everybody seems to have missed is the fact the correct lower abdominal breathing is taught in many authentic kung fu schools and plays a fundamental part in power issuance during strikes. Various types of expansion in the lower abdomen and kidney areas coordinated with "sinking" will reflect on the impact of one's strikes. This takes practice and is part and parcel of training many authentic kung fu styles.

I was always taught that relaxed lower abdominal breathing would also help general stamina during training and combat. I was also taught that keeping the breathing in the lower abdomen during daily activity was beneficial for general health and longevity.

On the other hand, I was taught that upper body breathing was not healthy nor natural.That's interesting. It seems that your kung fu is incomplete. Styles that deal with breathing more completely should teach lower and upper... This only breathing into the tanden thing is overemphasized, and wrong.

There are many cases where 'upper breathing' is natural and healthy, in fighting and other activities.

I'm not dissing your sifu, but many people seem to comment on things they haven't experienced. I've met people who say 'grapplers come in like this' when they obviously haven't trained any grappling. Saying that there is only one kind of breathing is just demonstrating you have no experience of other kinds. It's wrong.

[Hardwork108]

That's interesting. It seems that your kung fu is incomplete. Styles that deal with breathing more completely should teach lower and upper... This only breathing into the tanden thing is overemphasized, and wrong.
:confused:


There are many cases where 'upper breathing' is natural and healthy, in fighting and other activities.

That is interesting. What cases would you say were occasions which upper breathing would be better (as regards combat training)?


I'm not dissing your sifu, but many people seem to comment on things they haven't experienced.
I was just explaining the way I was taught at my school. That is all. :)



I've met people who say 'grapplers come in like this' when they obviously haven't trained any grappling. Saying that there is only one kind of breathing is just demonstrating you have no experience of other kinds. It's wrong.
Or it could just be a credible TCMA philosophy which is not that common?

[anerlich]

Abdominal breathing is generally prescribed for moderate activity and encourages relaxation. Coordination of exhalation with movement may amplify the power of explosive movements.

Heavy lifting, power hitting and the like require intraabdominal pressure, i.e making the core into a unit. Deep breathing into and out of the abdomen during a slow, heavy lift, or sustained isometric contraction (like holding the end of a heavy object up, or the contraction phase of PNF stretching) may be counterproductive and increase the risk of injury due to the lack of constant tension in the core.

In such situations, of sustained heavy effort, shallow breathing into the upper cavity may be a better option.

THis probably isn't real healthy over sustained periods, but neither is injury because you weren't properly internally braced to handle the strain.

RMA has breathing drills where they work on upper, middle, and lower (diagphragmatic) breathing, and the coordination of that breathing with movement and body alignment.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The whole purpose of breathing is to supply the body and brain with lots of oxygen. Hard physical activity as well as adreneline will eat it up quickly. Breathing deep by using the gut or diaphram will pull air down into the entire lung, giving you greater absorbtion of oxygen. Breathing at the top of the lung is nothing more than shallow breathing, which falls short of the job unless you breath rapidly, which then amounts to hyperventilating. We can see the results of this when a well oiled machine of a fighter becomes very tired in a short time. It is not always easy to maintain proper breathing when under stress or attack. That is why it is usually trained. Under normal circumstances, like when at rest or even sleeping everyone breaths deep. It is normal, but that can all change when things warm up. The idea it to practice it consciously as you walk, jog, or whatever you do. The training of WC tells us to remain as relaxed as we can and still be able to move quickly and with power, which does save energy and does not as quickly deplete our oxygen supply, and deep diaphram breathing is designed to keep your oxygen level up and constant.
Although we do tend to breath shallow at times and under certain conditions, it is inefficient at best and I can not think of any real benefits of such.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few articles in regards to "power breathing":

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/397/

http://gubernatrix.co.uk/2008/09/breathing-in-the-bench-press/

http://www.muscleandworkouts.com/Toptips.htm
( Breathing: Breathing is very important when performing lifts especially for the beginner and when lifting heavy weights. It fills you with oxygen at the right moment and helps you to complete the exercise using proper form.

The general "rule" to follow when it comes to breathing and weightlifting is to breath in when in the negative phase of the lift , and breath out when extending the most effort in lifting the weight.

This is especially important when performing heavy compound movements such as the squat, breathing out at the right moment when you are attempting to bring the weight "up" again can in fact help you to complete the rep. )

http://www.bigmusclesbuilding.com/breathingweightliftingexercises.html

http://mkonen.com/bblog/people/breathing/

[SteveLau]

Gentlemen, I really do not understand and agree with all the points of your posts. But thanks for your input in general.


Breathing at the top of the lung is nothing more than shallow breathing
by Lee Chiang Po. This is what comes closest to the answer to my original question.

My current view on chest breathing is that it is good to exercise the whole lungs and all chest rib muscles, instead of part of them. Shallow breathing to the upper lung does not help much during exercise. Besides, we athelete want to develop our potential lung capacity to the fullest. In application, we can use chest breathing when energy saving is not important. Strength training is an example, because the whole exercise volume is not much as will exhaust us.

Any more input on application instance of chest breathing?


Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

There are many cases where 'upper breathing' is natural and healthy, in fighting and other activities.



when benching i hold my air in the chest. to do it any other way wouldnt make a lot of sense.

squats and deads air in the belly. vasalva accross the board during during the concentric phase of most lifts, but the breathing between reps or during less taxing reps happens in the chest or belly naturally.

[franco1688]

The more oxygen you have in your blood the better your going to perform. Not only that when your breathing is full and natural your heart rate will be lower regardless of the activity. I have had this proven to me personally when I was in college. I was a participant in a biorythm exercise and the person giving the exercise would have me breath fast and short and my heart rate would raise significantly. When I would take deep abdominal breaths my heart rate would lower by anywhere from 20-30 beats per minute. So, in my opinion full controlled breathing is the way to go regardless of the activity, whether it would be lifting, long distance running, or martial arts. Notice I said controlled (ie. exhaling on strikes, muscular contraction, etc.). The shorter and more rapid that your breathing is the quicker you're going to run out of gas. That's just my two cents.

[SteveLau]

So, in my opinion full controlled breathing is the way to go regardless of the activity, whether it would be lifting, long distance running, or martial arts. by franco1688

In TCMA, agitated mind and rapid breathing usually go hand in hand. And they are symptoms exhibited by not well trained person.

Last night, I paid attention to the way I breathed while I jogged. During the run, I also had a 80m sprint, and I used deep abdominal breathing all the way. My arm swing, body trunk posture, and leg stride are all good. All under full control so to speak. And I landed on the front of my foot all the time during the sprint. I ran pretty way, and I felt the sprint being easy to me. So in conclusion, deep abdominal breathing is the way to go for physical and emotional pressing activities.


Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Raipizo]

well of course if you use your stomach you can hold alot more air too.

[eomonroe00]

stomach breathing only should be used,
when tired or winded, breaking deep threw the nose into the belly will produce a quicker stronger recovery, than other types

[SteveLau]

well of course if you use your stomach you can hold alot more air too.

by Raipizo


This is probably the key reason to use abdominal breathing during demanding physical activities. Yes, if we look at the shape of our lung, the upper part is smaller in size than the lower part. I am not sure why do humans get evolved so. It is not likely because we will develop a belly in the later part of our life, ha ha. To get the answer, we need to ask the biologist or anthrologist.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Mr Punch]

To get the answer, we need to ask the biologist or anthrologist.Looks like you can just ask eomonroe who obviously has all the answers in his single blanket statements.

Just off the top of my head as it's 4 in the morning and I'm working, here are a couple of ways where using the upper portion of your lung too can help in health and MA...

1) You're winded. You can't breath deep into your abdomen. You have no practice in bringing your breathing back down from the upper-lung, high-stressed way. You die. You can test this by getting a high level kyokushin guy to roundhouse kick you in the solar plexus.

2) You have asthma. You can't breathe out properly. Your abdominal breathing is forcing more and more oxygen into your system, causing excessive viscosity of your blood, intense stress on your heart, a rise in blood pressure, and an enormous asthma attack. You don't have adequate control of upper chest breathing to bring your breath back down to your abdomen and breathe out safely. You die.

3) Some guy flattens you. Neither of you have any ground skills because you're traditionalists who believe stupid groundless **** like 'only use abdominal breathing' because your sifu who learnt half his sifu's art in a changing world (including the half about whole lung breathing techniques). He's lying on you at 300 lbs. Fortunately, you know you can bench 325 with the appropriate tension in the upper chest breathing method and push him off, stand up and dance the dance of the steel-toes on his cranium. Oh no, you don't, cos... never mind.

4) Some guy flattens you. He lies on your abdomen. One breath in into your abdomen, and wait... that's it. You don't have any experience in breathing in strange positions or into different parts of your lungs... you die.

5) You fight someone with a lot of experience of MA. He subconciously predicts your every move by watching your tension in your chest and your abdominal movements.
You die.

Blah blah blah. There's enough **** on this thread already. I don't know how many examples you ab breathing only people want.

It's not about just breathing with the upper part of the lungs, though that is sometimes useful, but it's about how to breathe using your whole lungs or sections of them at will. Why would you only want to breathe with a part of your lungs, when basic anatomy tells us that humans regularly underuse at least a third of their lungs? You think having exclusively developed diaphragms, to the detriment of intercostals is somehow useful?

Your intercostals are essential for all of the 'correct' upright postures you find in TC / TJMA.

And while yoga doesn't predate the Buddhist origins of many of the MA, many of the basic breathing and meditational techs do. These techs contain sectional breathing. These were designed for and by the warrior castes.

And a brief look at top TKD guys, kenjutsu/do guys, boxers, some wing chun lines and many more (those are just a few examples from my experiences) will tell you telegraphed techs come a lot from breathing patterns, and even as far as that upper-chest breathing can disguise this, whilst adding to your ab breathing techs' capacity.

To all those who are saying 'only breathe with ab methods' and 'I tried running/sparring/f arting with only the ab method and it worked really well' it's because all of your evidence is from people who haven't been taught how to breathe naturally with their whole lungs or necessary parts.

[SteveLau]

Mr. Punch,

Your long winding, but not too long post really means something good to me. Yep, we probably have enough discussion on the topic. Thanks for you gentlemen once more. To amend what I have in mind of the topic, let me say that both chest and abdominal breathing will help us in demanding physical activities. And mainly we should use the later type.



Enlightened:)

KC
Hong Kong

[Raipizo]

Thanks for the credit SteveLau.