Rules for street fighting

[Jack Straw]

I practice kung fu. I don't have a lot of experience, but I practice hard and I study the movements, breakdowns, and philosophies as much as I can.
Anyhow, I have a friend who is a "street fighter". He claims that this is his style. I never knew street fighting was considered a style, but I have been wrong before. Well, my friend and I were just messing around, kind of a 1/2 speed light contact sparring. We faced off, got into or respective stances and started to go at it.
My friend is probably twice my size, I am not very big, standing at 5'7". So I figured my longer weapons would be more effective to start. So my first combo was a soft roundhouse to the back of the knee, side thrust into the abdomen, and followed though to a punch in throat (light contact, barely even brushed him with any of it). He got mad and started going off on how street fighters don't use kicks. I never realized there were rules for senseless violence in the street, so I asked him why. He stated that it isn't a safe technique to use, and the last person who tried to kick him in a real fight almost got their leg broken. Personally, I have only been in 1 "real" fight, back in grade school. I have always gotten along with 99% of the people I meet, and the other 1% I just don't converse with. However, even with my lack of fighting experience aside, I know for a fact that if it came down to a brawl in the street, I would use all of my weapons, not just stand there and try to throw punches with my short little arms. I would get pummeled. I realize it was his pride talking, but I thought it was funny.

[David Jamieson]

Do you feel tougher now?

Is your cock noticeably larger or thicker from this experience?

Do more wimmins want to get with you now that you have super powers?

just curious.

[kwaichang]

It seems you should make him that 1% you dont converse with. KC

[uki]

there are no rules in a fight... unless its a sport fight like an MMA or UFC bout, then there are rules. on the streets there is only action/reaction... do whatever works... bite, rip, tear, break, strike, kick, smash, etc, unless you can efectively defuse the confrontation before it happens. even if your opponent dies in the process you shouldn't worry about... the shaolin believe that if someone attacks you with the intent to do physical harm and gets themselves killed in the process, it amounts to suicide, as you are simply redirecting their intent back onto themselves. :)

[YouKnowWho]

In the prey mantis system there are 8 safe area to strikes and 8 none safe area to strikes. The teacher will teach the beginners only strike at those 8 safe striking area. But the teacher will teach the old students only strike those 8 none safe striking area.

In the SC system the teacher will teach the beginners how to finish a throw. But the teacher will teach the old students how not to finish a throw (doing throw 1/2 way).

In sport you want to follow the rules. In combat you want to break all rules.

[xcakid]

There is only one rule of street fight that I know of: If its a fair fight, you're doing something wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We live in a society, there are rules everywhere, break them at your own peril.

[Lucas]

depends on the situation and the parties involved.

i would treat some guy getting fresh on my lady differently then one attacking her.

[Lucas]

this is going to sound stupid and corny, but personally i believe in honor. i have personal honor and there are just some things i am unwilling to do.

most will laugh at me, those with honor will understand.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is one example that a teacher teaches his students how to break the rules in sport.

http://johnswang.com/sc23.wmv

[uki]

this is going to sound stupid and corny, but personally i believe in honor. i have personal honor and there are just some things i am unwilling to do.i agree... all is relative to the situational circumstances.


most will laugh at me, those with honor will understand.then again, some of those who claim to have honor, still will not understand. :)


We live in a society, there are rules everywhere, break them at your own peril.yet if one has a fear of breaking the rules, one becomes limited by his own fear.

[bawang]

hai guys
wot iss "honorr"??? :confused:
it good eat?

[sanjuro_ronin]

i agree... all is relative to the situational circumstances.

Always has been.


then again, some of those who claim to have honor, still will not understand.

Don't see how its difficult to understand.


yet if one has a fear of breaking the rules, one becomes limited by his own fear.

Fear? how did you get there from what I wrote?
What would make you use that term?

[sanjuro_ronin]

hai guys
wot iss "honorr"??? :confused:
it good eat?

Rent Rob Roy.
:D

[uki]

Don't see how its difficult to understand.you'd be suprised.


Fear? how did you get there from what I wrote?
What would make you use that term?the use of the word peril. :)

[Lucas]

then again, some of those who claim to have honor, still will not understand. :)



ah the affliction of the internet. i didnt really want to get to wordy, since im at work and not really SUPPOSE to be here. although im sure you understand more than you let on ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

you'd be suprised.
the use of the word peril. :)

Ah, I see, you read Peril and thought fear.
Well....
You need to work on that my Padawan !
:D

[Exadon]

you'd be suprised.
the use of the word peril. :)

The word peril has to do with danger, risk, hazard, not fear. Meaning break the rules at your own risk.

[uki]

although im sure you understand more than you let on.whatever would make you say that? :D


The word peril has to do with danger, risk, hazard, not fear. Meaning break the rules at your own risk.of course... the world teachs us to be afraid of taking risks, especially risks that involve breaking the law, therefore people tend to fear the consequences of taking the risk, which could translate into being afraid. just because there is a rule or law, doesn't mean that it is to be obeyed... restrictions are limitations and those ruled by limitations are not truly free. :)


Ah, I see, you read Peril and thought fear.not quite.


You need to work on that my Padawan !don't we all. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

The word peril has to do with danger, risk, hazard, not fear. Meaning break the rules at your own risk.

Correct, fear should not be what governs Us to "follow societies laws and rules".

[Shaolinlueb]

rules of street fighting, there are no rules in street fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

rules of street fighting, there are no rules in street fighting.

Tell that to the street !!
Last time I fought the street, we agreed that it would be chain mail gauntlets at dawn !!
Of course this was after early morning tea, Earl Grey I believe it was.

[Shaolinlueb]

Tell that to the street !!
Last time I fought the street, we agreed that it would be chain mail gauntlets at dawn !!
Of course this was after early morning tea, Earl Grey I believe it was.

shoot, and i thought my post was the win.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The first rule of street fighting is NO ONE TALKS ABOUT STREET FIGHTING !!

[Exadon]

Correct.
That means I get a cookie...right?



of course... the world teachs us to be afraid of taking risks, especially risks that involve breaking the law, therefore people tend to fear the consequences of taking the risk, which could translate into being afraid. just because there is a rule or law, doesn't mean that it is to be obeyed... restrictions are limitations and those ruled by limitations are not truly free. :)

not quite.
don't we all. :p

Still, he was not talking about the fear of breaking the "rules". He was saying break them at your own risk.

Nothing to do with fear. Or limitations that fear applies. It’s like when you watch a training video …they have in small text "perform stunts at your own risk" (or whatever). Nothing to do with fear…but rather perform such an action at your own risk.



rules of street fighting, there are no rules in street fighting.

down, foward , punch and you can throw fireballs.

[Exadon]

The first rule of street fighting is NO ONE TALKS ABOUT STREET FIGHTING !!

you broke the first rule

[sanjuro_ronin]

you broke the first rule

**** !!!
*looks around for ninjas*

[Lucas]

rules:

there are no rules, per se, in a street fight. But some people such as my self could follow what you might call a 'personal code of conduct'

ill never draw a weapon on an unarmed opponent, unless i am outnumbered, or otherwise fear for my life.

i wont strike a downed opponent simply to inflict further damage, if i can leave the situation at that point, i will, or wait for the authorities if thats the case. if they seem like they want to continue, i will kick them in the ribs or strike them as they rise. provided im in that situation and can do so.

i wont blindside someone from behind, or attack someone if they dont know im there. Though, if someone is in my face, and trying to escelate the situation to a physical altercation, im more than happy to oblige and will attack the moment i think they want to fight, whether they are ready or not. they asked for it.

if someone kicks my ass, im not going to try to retaliate with friends or weapons. ill openly ask them to fight again if i want to.

i wont let others fight my fights for me, or step in if im getting my ass kicked, unless they cross the line and beat me while im down.

these are a few examples of what i wont do.

what i will do is use every tool i have once the game is on. ill kick you in the nuts or spit in your eye if i get the chance.

[BoulderDawg]

The only rule I know of in street fighting is to never assume that there are rules.

I knew this guy who was pretty violent to begin with. He was in a parking garage and somebody pulled out in front of him or something. A few insults were hurled from the both cars. Had it ended there nothing would have happened. However the other guy decided to get out of his car.....big mistake. The guy I knew didn't say a word. He simply got out of his car walked over and beat the guy senseless. All the time the first guy was saying "You'd better get back into your car".:D

Later on the first guy who got out of his car said "He only wanted to talk". It was fairly obvious the truth was he thought he could bully this guy.

Lesson to be learned: Don't bluff unless you are prepared to be called on your bluff.

[Reverend Tap]

I have a friend who is a "street fighter". He claims that this is his style.
Big red flag right there. Street fighting is a "style" of fighting like cab driving is a "style" of driving. It's nothing more than doing it, in both examples, out on the street. ;)


He got mad and started going off on how street fighters don't use kicks...He stated that it isn't a safe technique to use
Given your description, it sounds like you "connected" with your techniques, yes? Sounds like he was making excuses as to why he didn't succeed in defending against them.

No technique is "safe" in a street fight situation. Your friend could pull out a good, standard "safe" punch and get sliced by the knife he didn't know his opponent had.


Personally, I have only been in 1 "real" fight, back in grade school. I have always gotten along with 99% of the people I meet, and the other 1% I just don't converse with. However, even with my lack of fighting experience aside, I know for a fact that if it came down to a brawl in the street, I would use all of my weapons, not just stand there and try to throw punches with my short little arms.
Right with you there. I've only been in a few actual fights, but, hindsight being 20/20 and all, I can see that there were times in all of them when using something beyond the "stand toe to toe and pound on each other" model would have ended the fight much more quickly and easily.

[BoulderDawg]

rules:

there are no rules, per se, in a street fight. But some people such as my self could follow what you might call a 'personal code of conduct'

ill never draw a weapon on an unarmed opponent, unless i am outnumbered, or otherwise fear for my life.

i wont strike a downed opponent simply to inflict further damage, if i can leave the situation at that point, i will, or wait for the authorities if thats the case. if they seem like they want to continue, i will kick them in the ribs or strike them as they rise. provided im in that situation and can do so.

i wont blindside someone from behind, or attack someone if they dont know im there. Though, if someone is in my face, and trying to escelate the situation to a physical altercation, im more than happy to oblige and will attack the moment i think they want to fight, whether they are ready or not. they asked for it.

if someone kicks my ass, im not going to try to retaliate with friends or weapons. ill openly ask them to fight again if i want to.

i wont let others fight my fights for me, or step in if im getting my ass kicked, unless they cross the line and beat me while im down.

these are a few examples of what i wont do.

what i will do is use every tool i have once the game is on. ill kick you in the nuts or spit in your eye if i get the chance.

I don't believe in street fighting. However if I or a friend of mine was attacked in the streets I would fear for my life and break all the above rules if I had to.

I would be looking for weapons (Rocks, poles, whatever). I would also be looking for things like throwing my attacker out in front of traffic and anything else.

[Lucas]

i understand this and agree after a fashion.

this is where the circumstantial reaction comes in.

if its some guy getting fresh on my lady and wont back down, i wont try to maim or kill the guy.

if its some creep attacking some lady in a dark ally and i happen to come by, ill probably smash the back of his head in with the first thing i find.

i guess i should say in regards to my previous post, this is in scenarios where two parties are willingly entering a fight based on conflicting views or situations.

i dont agree with street fighting either.

but i do view street fighting and street self defense /defense of others as two seperate things.

in a self defense scenario, i will do what it takes to make it out and those with me as unharmed as possible.

but in an escelated 'agreed' upon street fight, i dont REALLY want to hurt the other guy, i just want to beat his ass.

[bawang]

why would people want to fight with no wepans willingly??! :confused:
why would you want to fight a complete stranger on a stret with bare hands? you dont wanna live no more?

[sanjuro_ronin]

As long as people remember the law and what they are liable for, even in an act of self protection.

[Shaolinlueb]

As long as people remember the law and what they are liable for, even in an act of self protection.


true, just because a guy ***** slap's you in front of your women, doesn't give you the right to blow his brains out with your handy 9 mm Smith and Wesson.

[sanjuro_ronin]

true, just because a guy ***** slap's you in front of your women, doesn't give you the right to blow his brains out with your handy 9 mm Smith and Wesson.

Correct, slapping him back and then anally raping him is just fine.

[Shaolinlueb]

Correct, slapping him back and then anally raping him is just fine.
:eek:
i see what you did there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

:eek:
i see what you did there.

The Dark side is strong with you...

[BoulderDawg]

Well what about slapping the dude as you are doing the anal rape?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well what about slapping the dude as you are doing the anal rape?

Only if you spit on your palm first and then slap.

[bawang]

hurray for super manly man on man rape
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

[sanjuro_ronin]

hurray for super manly man on man rape
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

Eh, Superman is all hetro !!


Disclaimer:
If this in appropriate, I aplogise.

[Oso]

Rent Rob Roy.
:D

great movie.

[Jack Straw]

Do you feel tougher now?

Is your cock noticeably larger or thicker from this experience?

Do more wimmins want to get with you now that you have super powers?

just curious.

It is possible, why do you ask? Do I sense p*nis envy? Do you feel tougher talking your crap to someone thousands of miles away that you will never see in real life? I hope you feel better.

[David Jamieson]

It is possible, why do you ask? Do I sense p*nis envy? Do you feel tougher talking your crap to someone thousands of miles away that you will never see in real life? I hope you feel better.

Ha! I win a bottle of sparkling water.

(I had a bet that you would respond to this one. YOu know, because you're a bull**** troll and all and would only see things on that line of thinking like pee pee jokes and such.)

lol

[bawang]

one time my friend tried to lightly tap me on the head and i immediately blocked it
i had a hardon all day and gained 2 inches in length and 1/2 inch in girth
i think i am veyr skilled

[sanjuro_ronin]

one time my friend tried to lightly tap me on the head and i immediately blocked it
i had a hardon all day and gained 2 inches in length and 1/2 inch in girth
i think i am veyr skilled

You must be a practioner of Masocistic-jutsu or the most ancient of CMA, LongDongHangLow-fu.

[hskwarrior]

the founder of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut was also known as "Long Dong Jeong" :p:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

the founder of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut was also known as "Long Dong Jeong" :p:D

Well, he was "hung".
:D

[bawang]

You must be a practioner of Masocistic-jutsu or the most ancient of CMA, LongDongHangLow-fu.

unfortunately i was joking
i am now impotent after that unfortunate accident with 4 gallons of dit da jiu

[Faruq]

He got mad and started going off on how street fighters don't use kicks. I never realized there were rules for senseless violence in the street, so I asked him why. He stated that it isn't a safe technique to use, and the last person who tried to kick him in a real fight almost got their leg broken. Personally, I have only been in 1 "real" fight, back in grade school. I have always gotten along with 99% of the people I meet, and the other 1% I just don't converse with. However, even with my lack of fighting experience aside, I know for a fact that if it came down to a brawl in the street, I would use all of my weapons, not just stand there and try to throw punches with my short little arms. I would get pummeled. I realize it was his pride talking, but I thought it was funny.

How about all the guys that get stomped out in street fights or jail fights? Your buddy was lying. But someone always gets mad when you spar outside of a martial arts school setting (and many times even there).

[Shaolinlueb]

unfortunately i was joking
i am now impotent after that unfortunate accident with 4 gallons of dit da jiu

i hope that didnt happen, cause i just laughed out loud.

[golden arhat]

rules of street fighting, there are no rules in street fighting.

there totally are

its called the law and if i pull out a gun and shoot you there will definitley be consequences if i tear your ear off there will be consequences if i ruthlessley stamp on your face until your not moving there will be consequences from me breaking the rule of law


if you are totally uncaring about your own saftey welfare and general place in life then there are no rules but to live in a society is to follow rules.

[golden arhat]

lol he shares his name with lord chancellor and secretary of state jack straw here ahaha

http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/straw.htm

[bawang]

quoting the mighty awesome joe pesci in teh movie film casino
"im gonna crack your fukin head wide open, and when i get out of jail, guess what ill split your fukin head open again, cause im fuking stupid. i dont give a fuk about jail."

[uki]

there totally are there totally are not...


its called the lawoooooo... the law... <insert twilight zone theme here>

and if i pull out a gun and shoot you there will definitley be consequencesunfortunately this is martial arts related, not so much as usage of the dishonorable gun wielded by schmucks with itchy trigger fingers.


if i tear your ear off there will be consequencesyes, the person who gets their ear torn off will be disfigured for life.


if i ruthlessley stamp on your face until your not moving there will be consequences from me breaking the rule of lawstomping someone's face til they are not moving is not considered self defense so i'll agree with you here, but the law becomes obsolete when ones life is on the line... fear of breaking the law might lead to ones demise...


if you are totally uncaring about your own saftey welfare and general place in life then there are no rules but to live in a society is to follow rules.hahahaha!!! sure buddy, whatever you say... you can follow the rules of law, but they don't mean jacksquat in certain circumstances. people have a right to defend themselves, regardless of what some lame-arse law book says what you can and cannot do. :)

[Shaolinlueb]

golden arhat had to totally come in here and ruin the fun. i am glad uki gave a response.

no there aren't rules in street fighting. there isnt a ref to pull you off and go hey, no soccer kicking him while he is down. no ref to stop punching him in the back of the head. no ref to stop your attacker from grabbing something to strike you. so YES THERE ARE NO RULES IN STREET FIGHTING!!!

we are not talking about self defense laws and proper response and such like that.

[xcakid]

In TX we have the Castle Doctorine that extends outside your home. So if you can prove the guy is messing with you and you are in fear for your life, you can be exonerated from beating the living daylights out of them. There is also a law dictating disparity of force that governs handgun use. So if I am a frail old man, and you as a big beefy guy start threatening me and I am in fear for my life. I am able to use deadly force. I love this state. :D

[golden arhat]

there totally are not...
oooooo... the law... <insert twilight zone theme here>
unfortunately this is martial arts related, not so much as usage of the dishonorable gun wielded by schmucks with itchy trigger fingers.
yes, the person who gets their ear torn off will be disfigured for life.
stomping someone's face til they are not moving is not considered self defense so i'll agree with you here, but the law becomes obsolete when ones life is on the line... fear of breaking the law might lead to ones demise...
hahahaha!!! sure buddy, whatever you say... you can follow the rules of law, but they don't mean jacksquat in certain circumstances. people have a right to defend themselves, regardless of what some lame-arse law book says what you can and cannot do. :)

martial = military= fighting= violence

violence isnt just with your hands

there are rules on the street just as their are rules on the road
if i tear someones ear off and i'm caught i can face charges for disfiguring someone and assault, affray, GBH, etccccc
i'l really hurt someone bad in a fight and i've broken the law before but to say streetfighting has no rules is stupid because the people who make the rules will definitley disagree with you.

i dont fear for breaking the law, but its always in the back of my mind.
if i punch someone near a big set of steps and he falls down and breaks his head open and no one saw it then what does it look like?
i'm all for defending your self hell i'm for attacking people that deserve it even if its unprovoked in certain cases

basically what i'm trying to say is self preservation is more than just fighting off an attacker, its also about keeping yourself out of jail and being smart about it.

[golden arhat]

In TX we have the Castle Doctorine that extends outside your home. So if you can prove the guy is messing with you and you are in fear for your life, you can be exonerated from beating the living daylights out of them. There is also a law dictating disparity of force that governs handgun use. So if I am a frail old man, and you as a big beefy guy start threatening me and I am in fear for my life. I am able to use deadly force. I love this state. :D

i envy the amount of freedom you have.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In TX we have the Castle Doctorine that extends outside your home. So if you can prove the guy is messing with you and you are in fear for your life, you can be exonerated from beating the living daylights out of them. There is also a law dictating disparity of force that governs handgun use. So if I am a frail old man, and you as a big beefy guy start threatening me and I am in fear for my life. I am able to use deadly force. I love this state. :D

You should thank Chuck Norris for all that !!

[uki]

In TX we have the Castle Doctorine that extends outside your home. So if you can prove the guy is messing with you and you are in fear for your life, you can be exonerated from beating the living daylights out of them. There is also a law dictating disparity of force that governs handgun use. So if I am a frail old man, and you as a big beefy guy start threatening me and I am in fear for my life. I am able to use deadly force. I love this state. :Dsame as florida... shoot first, ask questions later... darn i hate those two states.

[xcakid]

same as florida... shoot first, ask questions later... darn i hate those two states.

There is more to it than just "shoot first, ask questions later" ;) That will definitely get you into trouble.

Although you may get exonorated, let's not forget the court cost involved to get that done. Let alone that only covers the criminal aspects of it. There is also civil court to deal with if you get sued by the counter party.

However, here in TX, most cases, juries are sympathetic toward the "good guys" :cool:

[Reverend Tap]

to say streetfighting has no rules is stupid because the people who make the rules will definitley disagree with you.

You aren't talking about rules of fighting, though. If I got in a streetfight and pulled a gun and shot or curbstomped my opponent until he stopped moving, I may wind up in jail for it, but I didn't somehow lose the fight or get "disqualified" because of it; I still won the fight. If I get in a fight on the street and there's nobody around but myself and my opponent, there are no rules and a practically nonexistent chance of jail time unless one of us leaves a corpse behind.

There are rules and laws that regulate all human behavior to some extent, and they cover fights just like they cover everything else, but it's just silly to extend that into the assertion that a street fight, in and of itself, has rules.

[golden arhat]

fighting is governed just as driving is governed

fighting is a facet of human society which is governed
rules are frequently so just because people frequently abandon the rules of conflict doesnt mean it doesnt have any.

[xcakid]

Driving is a privelege

Self defense is a human right.

Right and privileges are 2 different things. Much of your views come from being in a society where the right to defend yourself is severely hindered.

[uki]

fighting is governed just as driving is governedonly if you allow yourself to be governed.


fighting is a facet of human society which is governedunfortunately you're right... too many people simply fall in line without questioning authority. too bad, authority needs to be questioned more than ever these days... soon breathing will be governed.


rules are frequently so just because people frequently abandon the rules of conflict doesnt mean it doesnt have any.rules are for people who cannot govern themselves.

[Exadon]

rules are for people who cannot govern themselves.

so I guess none of us can govern ourselfs as we all follow the basic rules :)

[uki]

we all follow the basic rulesriding the wave doesn't make you a part of the water. :)

[bawang]

too much focus is giving fighting on the street
what about fighting on a train or an airplane or fighting in outer space

[sanjuro_ronin]

too much focus is giving fighting on the street
what about fighting on a train or an airplane or fighting in outer space

In the tight confines of a toilet !!

I here WC was created just for that !
(Inside joke there).

[uki]

too much focus is giving fighting on the street
what about fighting on a train or an airplane or fighting in outer spacei guess we'd be governed by whatever rules apply to those fighting enviroments. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

i guess we'd be governed by whatever rules apply to those fighting enviroments. :p

Well, you are quite correct there, physics rules.

[Lucas]

i want to see an outerspace fight !

TO DA MOON ALICE! !!!

[golden arhat]

i dont fear for breaking the law, but its always in the back of my mind.
if i punch someone near a big set of steps and he falls down and breaks his head open and no one saw it then what does it look like?
i'm all for defending your self hell i'm for attacking people that deserve it even if its unprovoked in certain cases

basically what i'm trying to say is self preservation is more than just fighting off an attacker, its also about keeping yourself out of jail and being smart about it.

someone address this

human beings are social animals, we made rules and they apply even to combat

which explains why most street fights dont end in someone dying each time they end with one guy giving up or running away or one guy stopping based on what the law is or just on what their own personal laws tell them to do.

[Lucas]

everyone values their freedom. whether we think about it or not, no one wants to be locked up for years in a federal prison (here in the states)

people will and do react to violent encounters with this as an element to their reaction. not all, and not always, but often and by most.

even if you dont specifically think about it, you arent going to go over board and do something that results in captivity. its that little thing in the back of your head, similar to a concience (sp), but its more of a.....inhibitor...type of thing.

[golden arhat]

most people have a conscience yes? a little bird on your shoulder which steers you.

so there are definitley established guidelines for how conflict is resolved in humans

[bawang]

lol???

where have you been fightings??

and what exactly is a street fight?! i have never even hear of people having fair one on one fist fight on a public streett? in what magical peace place does this happen?

[Lucas]

most people have a conscience yes? a little bird on your shoulder which steers you.

so there are definitley established guidelines for how conflict is resolved in humans

well everyones consciense is different. one may stay his hand not based on his personal conscience, but of other consequences he may fear. usually law based. but not always.