Kung-Fu Schools & Ground fighting

[yutyeesam]

Does your Kung-Fu school incorporate ground fighting? If so, how? Is it a separate (BJJ) class/program? Or is it integrated into the curriculum? Does the head teacher teach it, or is there a separate instructor who specializes in it teaching? If the latter, is the head teacher training in it?

If it is being integrated into the curriculum, does the teacher go straight into submissions (say after a takedown/throw), or does the teacher start from the ground basics and teach progressively how to roll?

I'm just curious to know how Kung-Fu schools are adapting to this. I've seen a Shaolin-Do school contract a BJJ school's instructor to have a program in the school.

[SanHeChuan]

I'm my mantis class our instructor became a PITT affiliate, having gone to the PITT to get training and periodically return for more. So our ground was MMA based. Our head instructor taught us, and usually when learning ground work we started on the ground. When we did sparring we would blend the takedown with the ground fighting. It was a separate class from the kung fu, but still blended the two.

It is my understanding that most schools hire a BJJ guy to teach a separate Class. But that is more likely to lead to personality conflicts especially if they have no respect for what you teach. :eek:

[yutyeesam]

Interesting. What is PITT? Why was it separate from the Kung-Fu class? Was it something more for the senior/harder-core students?

I could see the potential problem with personality conflicts...unless they are well paid lol.

[bawang]

yo man check this out check this out
what if you steal ground fighting from ju jitsu, and call it kung fu :eek: something like ground dragon or fire snake or somthing
its brilliant omg

[yutyeesam]

yo man check this out check this out
what if you steal ground fighting from ju jitsu, and call it kung fu :eek:
its such a brilliant idea omg

Or just incorporate it into the curriculum. Kung-Fu means skill through time and effort. Nuttin wrong with having good Kung-Fu in the ground game. ;)

[SanHeChuan]

Sorry I don't know why I put Two T's. PIT training as in THE PIT (http://www.thepitmma.com/), it is a famous MMA school where chuck lidell trains.

Separate because you can't cover everything in one class, and because not everyone was interested, and so on. Not everyone who did it was hardcore, but everyone was at least an intermediate student.

[bawang]

thats exactly what i mean yuteesam! incorporate bjj into the curriculum and learn from top bjj people!

except in 10 years not call it ju jit su but crouching panther tanglang taiji shaolin emei wudang quan traditional chinese ground kung fu!!! bjj ? gracie who? no we had this for thousands of years OMG YES LOLOL

that would be such a sweet payback to the japanese after those *******s stole our whitre crane and call it karate :eek: surprised face!

hell lets steal muay thai too and call it sanda! bwehehehee

[yutyeesam]

thats exactly what i mean yuteesam! incorporate bjj into the curriculum and learn from top bjj people!

except in 10 years not call it ju jit su but crouching panther tanglang taiji shaolin emei wudang quan traditional chinese ground kung fu!!! bjj ? gracie who? no we had this for thousands of years OMG YES LOLOL

that would be such a sweet payback to the japanese after those *******s stole our whitre crane and call it karate :eek: surprised face!

hell lets steal muay thai too and call it sanda! bwehehehee

LOL! Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn!

And take the stick fighting from Kali/Escrima and call it Siu Chut Gwun? lol

[yutyeesam]

No one has mentioned this, but a boxing gym may not have ground fighting classes. A kickboxing studio may not have ground fighting classes. So why should Kung-Fu?

[EarthDragon]

I believe that most systems have techniques when fighting from a fallen position. Most fights usually end up on the ground, so it would be foolish to not have knowledge of what to do when this happens. While some systems spend almost all of thier time in these positions to say that kung fu does not is way off base.
when the UFC came about and starting becoming popluar my kung fu brother who was a born fighter asked our teacher to train him so he could enter. He said if you want to enter that type of competition you must train mantis on the ground.... we looked at each other and said but kung fu doesnt have ground techniques.. he said all complete systems have this otherwise they are not complete.
We would train to engage in sparring then to a jointlock then to a throw, then follow our opponent to the ground and proceed to use another lock untill one of us tapped. thios went on for months. sometimes we would start on the ground and work from the top or the bottom. while some of the techniques taught were definatly not kung fu looking my teacher said that to win that type of fighting you must fight and train the waty they do.
He went on to win his bouts in UFC 6 &7 seven being the bloodiest UFC match in history

[bawang]

No one has mentioned this, but a boxing gym may not have ground fighting classes. A kickboxing studio may not have ground fighting classes. So why should Kung-Fu?

boxing gyms do boxing. kickboxing gym do kicking and boxing.
maybe flower kung fu gyms do performance. but traditional kung fu is to shaaaaaaaaa kil another mannn!

[yutyeesam]

while some of the techniques taught were definatly not kung fu looking my teacher said that to win that type of fighting you must fight and train the waty they do.
He went on to win his bouts in UFC 6 &7 seven being the bloodiest UFC match in history

Cool. Would you say your school is the norm of your system, or the exception?

The ground stuff that I've only been exposed to in CMA are sweeps, takedowns, kicks from the ground, and kneeling submissions after a throw. Never saw a curriculum that specifically had mount, guard, side control, half guard, rubber guard, rear mount, grapevine mount, etc etc. and transitioning through those positions, eventually into subs.

Is the groundfighting you all do standard stuff in the traditional curric that everyone is required to do? Since you mentioned Mantis, it makes me wonder then, why at SanHeChuan's school the instructors had to get PIT training?

[yutyeesam]

boxing gyms do boxing. kickboxing gym do kicking and boxing.
maybe flower kung fu gyms do performance. but traditional kung fu is to fight. more than fight. kil. rob. rape. war!

aw mang! i liked your shaaaaaaaaaa to kil man line better! lol

[SanHeChuan]

The ground stuff that I've only been exposed to in CMA are sweeps, takedowns, kicks from the ground, and kneeling submissions after a throw.

I believe those are the kind of techniques he was talking about that was mantis. While the other stuff was supplemental. As far as I know kung fu doesn't have a technique involving two guys laying on top of each other, I mean come on that would just be gay. ;)

You could learn the basics of BJJ yourself and teach those, presumably you could pick them up fast, with your background. The most you need to know as a stand up fighter is the transitions so you can work your way back to your feet. You'll also need to have enough knowledge of submissions to at least recognize when your in danger so you can escape.

[Reverend Tap]

My WC Sifu taught ground fighting alongside standup and takedown/sweep stuff. Don't know what the origin of it was; he never said it was from anywhere else so at the time I just assumed it was part of WC, and he never really taught the names of the groundfighting techniques, so no clues there either.

[Oso]

Groundwork!!! We don't need no steenkin groundwork!

[yutyeesam]

I believe those are the kind of techniques he was talking about that was mantis. While the other stuff was supplemental. As far as I know kung fu doesn't have a technique involving two guys laying on top of each other, I mean come on that would just be gay. ;)

You could learn the basics of BJJ yourself and teach those, presumably you could pick them up fast, with your background. The most you need to know as a stand up fighter is the transitions so you can work your way back to your feet. You'll also need to have enough knowledge of submissions to at least recognize when your in danger so you can escape.

Thanks for the explanation.

As for myself, I do have a personal trainer with an extensive background and have incorporated it, and such, very happy with what we've got.

But, I was curious though of what a lot of Kung-Fu schools are doing in regards to it. I know that it was met with some resistance awhile back, but it seems more and more accepted...but how much?

[yutyeesam]

My WC Sifu taught ground fighting alongside standup and takedown/sweep stuff. Don't know what the origin of it was; he never said it was from anywhere else so at the time I just assumed it was part of WC, and he never really taught the names of the groundfighting techniques, so no clues there either.

Interesting. Hearing that, it makes me think bawang is not too far off, in that groundfighting becomes so much a part of the martial sciences that everyone incorporates it, and it gets handed down, and the origins of it may become obscured.

[xcakid]

Yes we do.
Long Fist includes shiua chiao and chin na. Now granted its not as specialized as BJJ, but its ground fighting nevertheless. Its pretty much staying true to the style.

[yutyeesam]

Groundwork!!! We don't need no steenkin groundwork!

lol says the mma mod!

by the way oso - how did you become a mod? not that you aren't deserving! just wondering what torture and tribunals gene put you through for him to deem you worthy to breathe in his direction??????? :D

[Shaolinlueb]

my first teacher has a bjj program. he keeps the curriculum seperate. but he does do a class every now and then of bjj in the kung fu curriculum because its good for understanding leverage and stuff. but he keeps it seperate.

[yutyeesam]

Yes we do.
Long Fist includes shiua chiao and chin na. Now granted its not as specialized as BJJ, but its ground fighting nevertheless. Its pretty much staying true to the style.

Most Kung-Fu's (if you will) have Seut and Lah. And it's the specialization that I'm getting at. There are much more effective ways to get the Kam Lah techs on the ground these days, and in fact, curriculums designed to methodically learn it.

Does it get incorporated within LF schools, or is the groundfighting that the LF schools do considered "it", and if you want to learn more about it, go study BJJ?

[yutyeesam]

my first teacher has a bjj program. he keeps the curriculum seperate. but he does do a class every now and then of bjj in the kung fu curriculum because its good for understanding leverage and stuff. but he keeps it seperate.

Out of curiosity, why separate?

[mjw]

When I trained in Wing Chun we would chi sau or spar often times all the way to the ground and then fight on the ground or our ways out of the ground. Granted my sifu did have some judo experience prior to his learning Wing Chun himself he would soetimes throw in an armn lock or two in the ground but these arm locks were also worked in on stand up or atleast a variation. Was this from pure kung-fu?? Who knows but it made things complete and showed us how to keep fighting from the ground which made for a solid self defense system.

Done and Done

[Shaolinlueb]

Out of curiosity, why separate?

some kung fu people don't want to do bjj. most bjj people don't want to do kung fu. so he keeps them separate. also he offers discount if they want to do both. it is also a business so.

i used to think, oh i will use my chin na on the ground.
doesn't work like that. well you can adapt it, but have to be very good. your leverage and positioning goes to sh*t when you are flat on your back and in a half guard/guard/side mount.

i took a couple seminars (about 6 hours total) with my instructor and learned some basics. I respect BJJ for what it is and does, but I don't like it. I have rolled with bjj guys to. Heck I know the owners of NAGA and MMA.TV

[yutyeesam]

When I trained in Wing Chun we would chi sau or spar often times all the way to the ground and then fight on the ground or our ways out of the ground. Granted my sifu did have some judo experience prior to his learning Wing Chun himself he would soetimes throw in an armn lock or two in the ground but these arm locks were also worked in on stand up or atleast a variation. Was this from pure kung-fu?? Who knows but it made things complete and showed us how to keep fighting from the ground which made for a solid self defense system.

Done and Done

Cool. Yeah, I'm not even worried about the pure Kung-Fu aspect of it. Again, Kung-Fu means skill. And it looks like you guys trained to work from the ground, ie, a skill.

BTW, you're the second person who said "When I trained in Wing Chun..."
Just thought that was interesting.

[yutyeesam]

some kung fu people don't want to do bjj. most bjj people don't want to do kung fu. so he keeps them separate. also he offers discount if they want to do both. it is also a business so.

i used to think, oh i will use my chin na on the ground.
doesn't work like that. well you can adapt it, but have to be very good. your leverage and positioning goes to sh*t when you are flat on your back and in a half guard/guard/side mount.

i took a couple seminars (about 6 hours total) with my instructor and learned some basics. I respect BJJ for what it is and does, but I don't like it. I have rolled with bjj guys to. Heck I know the owners of NAGA and MMA.TV

Makes sense, and I agree! Why don't you like it?

[Reverend Tap]

BTW, you're the second person who said "When I trained in Wing Chun..."
Just thought that was interesting.

To be fair, I stopped because I graduated from college and moved back home, where there wasn't/isn't a WC school nearby.

[notanexit]

My WC Sifu taught ground fighting alongside standup and takedown/sweep stuff. Don't know what the origin of it was; he never said it was from anywhere else so at the time I just assumed it was part of WC, and he never really taught the names of the groundfighting techniques, so no clues there either.
Sounds like the teacher I used to train with.Things would seemingly appear out of thin air with no explanation.He taught us bjj,but it was called "groundfighting" to make it appear as if we were still doing cma.You like I assumed it was a part of what we were doing.I was wrong.

[Violent Designs]

I learn CMA to learn a standup art focused on strikes and pounding people with . . . strikes.

If I wanted to learn grappling I would go take BJJ or Sambo.

If I want to learn MMA I would join a MMA gym.

If I want to learn boxing I would join a boxing gym.

I want to learn CLF so I joined a CLF gym.

Why are all CMA guys incorporating BJJ into their curriculum?

Are you training for an MMA competition?

If for self defense, basic sweeps/throws, and learning how to mount/sweep from the guard is good enough to get out.

Why drill the BJJ intensively if you're never gonna use it. That's what I'm confused about.

[Taryn P.]

I don't wanna find myself rolling around on the ground with some gorilla, and thinking "D@mn, I kinda wish I'd studied a little more grappling/groundfighting" right before I hear my own neck snap.

It's fine to say, "I do my fighting standing up" right up until you find yourself on your ass. Then you just have to suck it up and deal, and better to have the tools available.

[Oso]

lol says the mma mod!

by the way oso - how did you become a mod? not that you aren't deserving! just wondering what torture and tribunals gene put you through for him to deem you worthy to breathe in his direction??????? :D

you've heard of waterboarding, right?


now, think about it w/ nacho cheese sauce...

[MasterKiller]

The reality is, if you are teaching kung fu as COMBATIVES, you need groundwork. Hitting the ground is a reality, falling down is a reality, getting thrown and landed on is a reality, and getting stomped while down is a reality. If you never practice those scenarios in a controlled environment, you can't expect to pull it off for rizzle.

BJJ is not the only ground system in the world, but it's probably the most sophisticated, and right now it's pretty available, so it's the logical choice to use as your base.

Once you establish a good base (Blue Belt level or so), you can modify the curriculum and fit it into your system. Just don't try to pass it off as Shaolin Groundfighting™.

If you are teaching an "art," you can stick with the standard CMA curriculum and show traditional applications, but you should preface the discusssions with historically contextual information about why you are spending so much time learning how to kick someone who doesn't want to follow you to the ground, etc.

I can't imagine EVER training under someone again who hasn't taken groundfighting seriously enough to address it, even if it's just by having a separate program run by another instructor.

[Lokhopkuen]

Does your Kung-Fu school incorporate ground fighting? If so, how? Is it a separate (BJJ) class/program? Or is it integrated into the curriculum? Does the head teacher teach it, or is there a separate instructor who specializes in it teaching? If the latter, is the head teacher training in it?

If it is being integrated into the curriculum, does the teacher go straight into submissions (say after a takedown/throw), or does the teacher start from the ground basics and teach progressively how to roll?

I'm just curious to know how Kung-Fu schools are adapting to this. I've seen a Shaolin-Do school contract a BJJ school's instructor to have a program in the school.

We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.

[MasterKiller]

We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.

What is an example guard pass you use?

What is an example of a half-guard pass you use?

How do you escape from a knee-on-belly mount?

[Exadon]

We have not done ground fighting yet...but I would like to learn some.

Can anyone post any examples (either video, or other sources) of ground fighting that you use in school?

Thanks

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the world we live in today, to NOT take advantage of specialized systems of H2H combat is just silly.
Very few systems deal with ground work as well as BJJ, you just have to find a teacher that deals with the WHOLE aspect of ground work and not just the grappling aspect, including weapons and ground work.

[Lokhopkuen]

What is an example guard pass you use?

What is an example of a half-guard pass you use?

How do you escape from a knee-on-belly mount?

Well we don't subscribe to the terminology you are using nor or we sport oriented.
In a supine mounted position we use seizing and grappling techniques similar to stand up with emphasis on dominating the wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck and torso control points (controlling three knots), using the shoulders and hips as the root base. Forgive me if my words do not paint the clearest of pictures for you.

As far as "knee on belly mount" I have yet to end up in that position but it sounds interesting.

Working against the shoot I've had great success redirecting the hands and arms (when the attacker uses his weight ballistically intending to hobble or uproot), setting root and using stance transition to root to turn the shoulder and neck using the impetus forces against would-be shooter. Traditional stance work training has paid off in spades as has mobility in stance-transition-stance during pre and post engagement.

In recent experience big thick guys have mostly tried the glory shot punch in the mouth, smaller thick guys almost always try for a shoot. I expect everything and nothing keeping ready for all things. This play usually jumps off when I am intervening in protection of a principle or secondary client or during egress whilst disengaging from a trouble source.

Since this ground fighting craze erupted I've become quite fond of following my target to the ground with specialized finishing technique seeking an emphasis on incapacitation, immobilization via treading, shooting arrow or purposeful falling with foot, knees and hips directed to tender and vital points followed by arresting (seizing) techniques. Most recent encounters have been multiple assailant and I hate getting my designer suits dirty or torn so I'm big on efficiency.

Also I don't play fair. MK 8 pepper spray, green laser, super bright LED Flashlights with weighted handles, body armor with trauma plates and gloves with carbon fiber knuckles have given my team and I the edge. Keep in mind I'm working lots of EP details these days.

I got a chance to play friendly with some of the Machado Brothers years ago and I respect their BJJ. Truthfully I'd rather wrassle a full grown anaconda than one of them bros. Unfortunately my recent experiences with these types of fighters and others were not friendly matches but instead on the job. Most of these opponents displayed a divergence between what it was they wanted to happen as opposed to what was really going on.

If i attribute my work group's success to any one component I'd say just it's remaining in the moment mentally.

[Lokhopkuen]

In the world we live in today, to NOT take advantage of specialized systems of H2H combat is just silly.
Very few systems deal with ground work as well as BJJ, you just have to find a teacher that deals with the WHOLE aspect of ground work and not just the grappling aspect, including weapons and ground work.

Well said.

[yutyeesam]

We practice ground fighting in our style that is traditional and has no connection to BJJ or MMA.

Interesting. Would you say that all the other schools that practice your style, which from your sig is Northern Shaolim (did you mean ShaoliN with an "N"?) all know how to do this, and it is standardized?

In other words, I could go to 10 Northern Shaolim (?) schools around the country and all the teachers would know and be adept in this form of groundfighting?

I only ask because it seems that if only one school of a style does it, that usually indicates that it is either not in the standard curriculum or the teacher is taking things from the outside and incorporating it. Nothing wrong with that at all - but I'm a bit skeptical when people say the CMA's have groundfighting strategies that are similar to BJJ...so, I'm just cross referencing.

it almost leads to what bawang was saying earlier:

"except in 10 years not call it ju jit su but crouching panther tanglang taiji shaolin emei wudang quan traditional chinese ground kung fu!!! bjj ? gracie who? no we had this for thousands of years OMG YES LOLO"

[MasterKiller]

I only ask because it seems that if only one school of a style does it, that usually indicates that it is either not in the standard curriculum or the teacher is taking things from the outside and incorporating it. Nothing wrong with that at all - but I'm a bit skeptical when people say the CMA's have groundfighting strategies that are similar to BJJ...so, I'm just cross referencing."


History just does not support the idea of ANY CMA having a detailed ground curriculum. CMA techniques almost always address situations in which the attacker is standing over a downed opponent.

While you can argue CMA techniques CAN be applied on the ground, the fact is, until recently, no one cared to do so extensively.

[sanjuro_ronin]

History just does not support the idea of ANY CMA having a detailed ground curriculum. CMA techniques almost always address situations in which the attacker is standing over a downed opponent.

While you can argue CMA techniques CAN be applied on the ground, the fact is, until recently, no one cared to do so extensively.

The most you'd probably fine would be, at best, categorized as "ground and pound".
Certainly many of the chin-na locks can be applied while on the ground, but a dedicated ground curriculum in CMA is harder to find that a woman that will let you make her your "angry pirate".
:D

[Lucas]

Why are all CMA guys incorporating BJJ into their curriculum?



I think i can kind of answer this.

Kungfu has always been about combat. The birthings of chinese arts are through warfare. Mass scale, weapons, bows, horses, etc. eventually the many empty handed arts developed. but throughout it all kungfu has always been about combat, and being able to defeat what ever opponent may be in front of you. at all costs, take all comers.

now days SOOO many men are learning the more fine tuned arts of grappling. A lot of guys wrestle, but with the modern BJJ CRAZE, a lot of cats are getting down and rolling.

being a kungfu guy, you naturally want to be able to defend yourself in any situation. at least thats the goal

if grappling/bjj is so popular and continues to be so, more and more guys learn it, means more of a chance you will encounter guys who know how to grapple.

picking up some form of grappling is just a continuation of the natural progression and evolution of your martial arts.

no martial artists wants to get his ass handed to him cuz he faild to devote a few years to learn how to ground fight.

[Shaolinlueb]

Makes sense, and I agree! Why don't you like it?

i just have no interest in it, it doesn't do anything for me. same thing with karate, i respect it. it just doesn't do anything for me. i like kung fu better.

kung fu guys should practice those stances more that they neglect so much. if you have a strong of enough base and know how to use them, you will be very hard to move. or so said an ancient Chinese man

[Lucas]

i just have no interest in it, it doesn't do anything for me. same thing with karate, i respect it. it just doesn't do anything for me. i like kung fu better.

kung fu guys should practice those stances more that they neglect so much. if you have a strong of enough base and know how to use them, you will be very hard to move. or so said an ancient Chinese man

how can one expect to stay on their feet, if they dont even know how to stand well.

[EarthDragon]

yutyeesam, yes the ground work was added to our school of mantis to accomadate the fighting environment and arena. you must fight thier fight. if you go to syberia and fight you better train with heavy clothes on or you will loose, when you train in the mountains you better get the breath acclimated first etc etc

tradtionally as someone said shuai chiao chinese wresttling ended with a throw, fighting on the ground was compred to 2 dogs rolling in the dirt.

everyone should cross train if they are looking to be fighter for a living. otherwise you will loose . Now the argument comes if I dont want to train to fight in a cage and just want to learn the art of kung fu for onesself who needs ground fighting? or iron palm, or shin conditioning?

[yutyeesam]

i just have no interest in it, it doesn't do anything for me. same thing with karate, i respect it. it just doesn't do anything for me. i like kung fu better.

kung fu guys should practice those stances more that they neglect so much. if you have a strong of enough base and know how to use them, you will be very hard to move. or so said an ancient Chinese man

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't mean to pry, but you are definitely not alone in not having an interest in it, which is why I think, some schools have it as a separate class.

Some men have a very intense fear of h0m0ph0bia and don't even want to try - that's one reason I ran across on why some people have no interest in it. For others, the outward appearance of it is intimidating and turns them off.

I'm always curious to know if something doesn't interest someone in martial arts, why that is, because chances are, it's the same for a lot of other people as well.

[yutyeesam]

yutyeesam, yes the ground work was added to our school of mantis to accomadate the fighting environment and arena. you must fight thier fight. if you go to syberia and fight you better train with heavy clothes on or you will loose, when you train in the mountains you better get the breath acclimated first etc etc

tradtionally as someone said shuai chiao chinese wresttling ended with a throw, fighting on the ground was compred to 2 dogs rolling in the dirt.

everyone should cross train if they are looking to be fighter for a living. otherwise you will loose . Now the argument comes if I dont want to train to fight in a cage and just want to learn the art of kung fu for onesself who needs ground fighting? or iron palm, or shin conditioning?

Thanks ED for the explanation.

As for the very good point you raised if someone doesn't want to train to fight, why do it? I don't know about Iron Palm or Shin conditioning, but the groundfighting can be talked about in (and forgive me for being a CMA fruitcake for a second) terms of the Tao, and free flowing organic interchanges. I know, I know, but hear me out...

The same type of flowing interchanges in striking, upright continuous Kam La (Chin Na) reversals and counters, clinching-throw interchanges, weapons (more from the Kali/Escrima systems), and now the ground. The idea of flow and continuity are consistent with the groundfighting. It's a different medium for the same principles of a constant and fluid interchange.
/my fruitcake talk

[Shaolinlueb]

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't mean to pry, but you are definitely not alone in not having an interest in it, which is why I think, some schools have it as a separate class.


your welcome, i didn't think of it as prying.



Some men have a very intense fear of h0m0ph0bia and don't even want to try - that's one reason I ran across on why some people have no interest in it. For others, the outward appearance of it is intimidating and turns them off.

haha. i can see why some people think that. this is not mine



I'm always curious to know if something doesn't interest someone in martial arts, why that is, because chances are, it's the same for a lot of other people as well.

i guess. i mean i see the use of it, i see the practicallity of it. but i dont see myself devoting the time to it like i do kung fu. kung fu is fun for me, bjj isn't.

[Lokhopkuen]

Interesting. Would you say that all the other schools that practice your style, which from your sig is Northern Shaolim (did you mean ShaoliN with an "N"?) all know how to do this, and it is standardized?

In other words, I could go to 10 Northern Shaolim (?) schools around the country and all the teachers would know and be adept in this form of groundfighting?

I only ask because it seems that if only one school of a style does it, that usually indicates that it is either not in the standard curriculum or the teacher is taking things from the outside and incorporating it. Nothing wrong with that at all - but I'm a bit skeptical when people say the CMA's have groundfighting strategies that are similar to BJJ...so, I'm just cross referencing.

it almost leads to what bawang was saying earlier:

"except in 10 years not call it ju jit su but crouching panther tanglang taiji shaolin emei wudang quan traditional chinese ground kung fu!!! bjj ? gracie who? no we had this for thousands of years OMG YES LOLO"

I could not speak for other Northern Shaolim schools only I can talk about what i learned from my teacher. Ours is a unique situation since my Teacher is a rather unique practitioner
.
Personally I am not 'style stuck', I use what works.

However I've found that the tool box created via our method of personal cultivation has contained a tool and solution for all I have encountered thus far.

Now as far as your belief or disbelief you'll have to work it out for yourself since I'm here to prove nothing. I'm just sharing some info bro.

[yutyeesam]

LHK-
Thanks for sharing the info.
-123

[Lokhopkuen]

Weather you're standing up or laying down, combat is combat.
BJJ didn't invent ground fighting, they just exhibited a unique approach.

A punch is a punch, a kick just a kick, a lock is but a lock and a throw is a throw. These are the basic four options in combat each one specialized alone or in combination.

How you train those principles is called style.

There is an interesting phenomenon a foot.

Jujitsu was the most prominent style of martial art in Japan at one time and eventually was displaced in popularity by another style.
Some of the practitioners of Jujitsu disgruntled by this loss of fame and income shamed themselves and the style through resorting to brutality and dishonorable conduct.

The style never died but was practiced quietly and seriously holding to the codes of bushido as a form of self defense and self cultivation.

It gained prominence again recently when some of the talented gentleman practitioners from the Americas displayed it's use with devastating effectiveness against imposing formidable opponents.

I salute them.

They won some, they lost some yet they remained serious genteman practitioners.

Now due to their hard work and fame almost any would be bad a s s brings up the name BJJ in an internet forum or over bold words at a bar likened to calling incantation for the boogie man and everyone quiets down afraid?

I wonder how those gentlemen feel about the posers with all sorts of bad attitude and foul words riding the crest of a wave they have no right to even let a little bit of it splash over their ankles?

All martial arts are grand and special, all are serious and dangerous, all can raise the spirit, improve health and lead to unification of self.

Just something to think about.

[Lokhopkuen]

how can one expect to stay on their feet, if they dont even know how to stand well.

Well said!

The stance is fundamental. In particular Ma Bu, Riding the Horse stance has a special place. Most of the people who are not prime examples, yet claiming expertise in Chinese martial art lack the root basics.


how can one expect to stay on their feet, if they dont even know how to stand well.

That was one of the big wake up calls for me. I was so intrigued with the beauty and fluidity of Gung Fu performance that I skimped on my basic training and pursued the flowery movement and high kicks without first grounding myself in the most basic aspects of my beloved art. After shaming myself for years I went back and cleaned up what should have been job one. Till this day i still suffer from my mistake through accumulative injury and bad habits.

Slowly I am learning. Slowly.

[EarthDragon]

lokhopkuen
Now due to their hard work and fame almost any would be bad a s s brings up the name BJJ in an internet forum or over bold words at a bar likened to calling incantation for the boogie man and everyone quiets down afraid?

I wonder how those gentlemen feel about the posers with all sorts of bad attitude and foul words riding the crest of a wave they have no right to even let a little bit of it splash over their ankles?

All martial arts are grand and special, all are serious and dangerous, all can raise the spirit, improve health and lead to unification of self.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

profound statement and my vote for quote of the year! You are a true MA in my book, my hats goes off to you..... be well

[bawang]

is anyone trained in ditang kung fu? is it possible to use for ground fighting?

[MasterKiller]

is anyone trained in ditang kung fu? is it possible to use for ground fighting?

Groundfighting, in the sense of BJJ/Sambo/Judo, is really more about positional dominance than anything else. Ditang, while training flexibility and break-falling, does little to address how to control positions.

[Shaolinlueb]

Groundfighting, in the sense of BJJ/Sambo/Judo, is really more about positional dominance than anything else. Ditang, while training flexibility and break-falling, does little to address how to control positions.

dude MK, we all know kung fu was made on the battlefield and if you rolled on the ground in the battle field, you would be dead!!! don't forget that.

and excuse me, I have to go put my armor on, grab my spear and head to battle!!! ;)

[MasterKiller]

dude MK, we all know kung fu was made on the battlefield and if you rolled on the ground in the battle field, you would be dead!!! don't forget that.

Yeah, but I'm not on a battlefield.

Adapt the technique and make it your own.

[Lokhopkuen]

is anyone trained in ditang kung fu? is it possible to use for ground fighting?

De Tan in Gong Tong Wa.

You be knowing sum stuffs:D

[Lokhopkuen]

lokhopkuen
Now due to their hard work and fame almost any would be bad a s s brings up the name BJJ in an internet forum or over bold words at a bar likened to calling incantation for the boogie man and everyone quiets down afraid?

I wonder how those gentlemen feel about the posers with all sorts of bad attitude and foul words riding the crest of a wave they have no right to even let a little bit of it splash over their ankles?

All martial arts are grand and special, all are serious and dangerous, all can raise the spirit, improve health and lead to unification of self.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

profound statement and my vote for quote of the year! You are a true MA in my book, my hats goes off to you..... be well

Brothers we bees ;)

[Lokhopkuen]

Groundfighting, in the sense of BJJ/Sambo/Judo, is really more about positional dominance than anything else. Ditang, while training flexibility and break-falling, does little to address how to control positions.

I agree with you sortta and please don't mistake my statements as contentious.
I love all martial art from a very deep place and it seems we are so often misunderstood on these forums.

Ditang actually encompasses the same elements you outlined above plus some other THANGS but they are taught differently and categorized stylistically counter to BJJ systems. Same jive different speak as it were. Some people who've actually been taught some of these have also been taught not to talk about them openly.
(The Bullshido types will yell fake because they just bate a candidate victum so that they might grab some spilt beans dropped in an emotional moment. )
Some never learned them because their teacher either didn't know or didn't tell.
Fact is in our school it was just one of those things that came up on a day when a bunch of old hands were around and Sifu felt like expanding on it.
Many of you may think you know the English translation for Bak Siu Lum but you really don't.


Wanna know a secret?

It really translates as Scholarly Down and Dirty Chinese Fighting (Kidding sortta:eek:)
All martial art is like a beautiful flower that keeps on blooming and gets more ever beautiful the closer you examine it.

He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.

[Taryn P.]

He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.
---------------------

I kinda like that... but the problem is, if nobody speaks, nobody LEARNS anything.

[Lokhopkuen]

The most you'd probably fine would be, at best, categorized as "ground and pound".
Certainly many of the chin-na locks can be applied while on the ground, but a dedicated ground curriculum in CMA is harder to find that a woman that will let you make her your "angry pirate".
:D

I'm starting to see that you might actually know your shizzle:p

[Lokhopkuen]

He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.
---------------------

I kinda like that... but the problem is, if nobody speaks, nobody LEARNS anything.

Yea.

I love me some tricky Chinese! Why some of my best friends are......

ROTFLMAO!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm starting to see that you might actually know your shizzle:p

I bow to you my liege ;)

[mjw]

Cool. Yeah, I'm not even worried about the pure Kung-Fu aspect of it. Again, Kung-Fu means skill. And it looks like you guys trained to work from the ground, ie, a skill.

BTW, you're the second person who said "When I trained in Wing Chun..."
Just thought that was interesting.

It's a long story but I don't really do kung-fu anymore as in traditional training since I wasn't able to find a comparable style in my neighborhood though I still practice techniques solo and spar with a Kempo guy in my neighborhood then I'm actually 6 months into BJJ now. It is what it is.....

[MightyB]

Ditang actually encompasses the same elements you outlined above plus some other THANGS but they are taught differently and categorized stylistically counter to BJJ systems. Same jive different speak as it were. Some people who've actually been taught some of these have also been taught not to talk about them openly.
(The Bullshido types will yell fake because they just bate a candidate victum so that they might grab some spilt beans dropped in an emotional moment. )
Some never learned them because their teacher either didn't know or didn't tell.
Fact is in our school it was just one of those things that came up on a day when a bunch of old hands were around and Sifu felt like expanding on it.
Many of you may think you know the English translation for Bak Siu Lum but you really don't.


Wanna know a secret?

It really translates as Scholarly Down and Dirty Chinese Fighting (Kidding sortta:eek:)
All martial art is like a beautiful flower that keeps on blooming and gets more ever beautiful the closer you examine it.

He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak.- Old Chinese Saying designed to Chin na your ego and make you STFU.

No- I'll have to agree with Earth Dragon on this. Any groundfighting that resembles wrestling or BJJ as a positional game that's been added to the CMA is new and a direct result of the success of BJJ and wrestling in MMA. I'd say we're fooling ourselves if we'd say otherwise. Modern Kung Fu isn't battlefield KF- it's scholarly kung fu and is suited for dueling. It had rules of conduct and was governed by a specific cultural mores.

Lately- there has been such an interest in MMA that CMA had to adapt/ has to adapt to their game.

[EarthDragon]

funny thing is we now call it MMA (mixed martial arts) my system 8 step praying mantis which is around 350 years old is comprised of 18 different styles.
it just doesnt include jujitsu, but now it does... does that make it a kung fu style or a MMA?????

[sanjuro_ronin]

funny thing is we now call it MMA (mixed martial arts) my system 8 step praying mantis which is around 350 years old is comprised of 18 different styles.
it just doesnt include jujitsu, but now it does... does that make it a kung fu style or a MMA?????

The vast majority of ALL TMA are "mixed MA".
To be a true traditionalist you would be a "mixed martial artist".
Granted it helps to know WHICH systems to mix, LOL !
No man is an island, and no MA system is one either.

[EarthDragon]

exaclty! this is my point....... why all the arugments about tradional vs MMA if indeed they are all mixed? some people ask me if I teach MMA. they come see a class and wonder wheres the BJJ? you gotta laugh at ignorance sometimes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

exaclty! this is my point....... why all the arugments about tradional vs MMA if indeed they are all mixed? some people ask me if I teach MMA. they come see a class and wonder wheres the BJJ? you gotta laugh at ignorance sometimes.

One of the reasons I don't call what I do "MMA", even though it "technically" is, is because MMA is not the term used for the SPORT of MMA.
Best to call it "martial arts" or Total Fighting or whatever you like, but MMA is basically a "trademark" name for the sport of MMA.

[MightyB]

funny thing is we now call it MMA (mixed martial arts) my system 8 step praying mantis which is around 350 years old is comprised of 18 different styles.
it just doesnt include jujitsu, but now it does... does that make it a kung fu style or a MMA?????

No- I'd say that is in the true spirit of a Mantis style- but you don't pretend that the jujitsu existed in the style- you absorbed it and hopefully applied mantis methodology to it.

But where I have a problem is in this failure of a lot of CMA instructors and schools to acknowledge where their groundfighting root came from. I do have a problem with that. I find it ethnocentric and a bit hypocritical. We're supposed to honor our masters---

Anyway- there's nothing wrong with incorporating groundfighting- I think we all should, but I think we should also acknowledge where our groundfighting base came from.

Mine's straight up Judo-Newaza with a mantis twist.;)

[MasterKiller]

The vast majority of ALL TMA are "mixed MA".
To be a true traditionalist you would be a "mixed martial artist".
Granted it helps to know WHICH systems to mix, LOL !
No man is an island, and no MA system is one either.

We all know there is a fundamental difference between mixing 34 striking styles and mixing a striking + a grappling style.

MMA, in the understood context, relates to training mixed ranges, not mixed styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We all know there is a fundamental difference between mixing 34 striking styles and mixing a striking + a grappling style.

MMA, in the understood context, relates to training mixed ranges, not mixed styles.

An excellent point.

[Lokhopkuen]

No- I'll have to agree with Earth Dragon on this. Any groundfighting that resembles wrestling or BJJ as a positional game that's been added to the CMA is new and a direct result of the success of BJJ and wrestling in MMA. I'd say we're fooling ourselves if we'd say otherwise. Modern Kung Fu isn't battlefield KF- it's scholarly kung fu and is suited for dueling. It had rules of conduct and was governed by a specific cultural mores.

Lately- there has been such an interest in MMA that CMA had to adapt/ has to adapt to their game.

Opps;
Guess you've never met my teacher there in "Michigan"....:rolleyes:
The discussions I'm referring to were over 20 years ago so eerrrr we weren't adapting to anything called BJJ bud. As I recall one of my classmates had recounted a mat session with a Greco Roman player which started said discussion.

Traditional Bak Siu Lum is built on "4 hits", "8 Skills" and "12 Methods".
4 Hits= punch, kick, seize, throw. In the throws are contained De tan, "Falling with purpose" (ground fighting) and it's a bit like tangling with a gorilla. (great ape)
Next time try to actually read my post before pasting me in your non-relevant responses.:D

This is where I smile slyly and STFU.

[MightyB]

Opps;
Guess you've never met my teacher there in "Michigan"....:rolleyes:
The discussions I'm referring to were over 20 years ago so eerrrr we weren't adapting to anything called BJJ bud. As I recall one of my classmates had recounted a mat session with a Greco Roman player which started said discussion.

Traditional Bak Siu Lum is built on "4 hits", "8 Skills" and "12 Methods".
4 Hits= punch, kick, seize, throw. In the throws are contained De tan, "Falling with purpose" (ground fighting) and it's a bit like tangling with a gorilla. (great ape)
Next time try to actually read my post before pasting me in your non-relevant responses.:D

This is where I smile slyly and STFU.

Fine- find me a pre-1985 documented reference to groundfighting as we know encompassed in CMA... and not Ditang 'cuz that t'aint groundfighting.

[TenTigers]

Joi Bot Sien, Eight Drunken Immortals, the actual sets from styles such as CLF, LAMA, Seven Star Mantis, etc, not the wu-shu,shaolin,etc varieties, contained suplexes, sweeps, throws, sacrifice throws, armbars, triangle, that superman back arch thingy, and other techniques you see in ne-waza. It's not a comprehensive text, but contains a good set of core basics.
Once you look beyond the drunken movements and theatrics, you have some solid techniques. It's in there, but for the most part-all you see today are the theatrics. The older, traditional versions are rarely seen. I guess they're not really "crowd-pleasers."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fine- find me a pre-1985 documented reference to groundfighting as we know encompassed in CMA... and not Ditang 'cuz that t'aint groundfighting.

Tim Cartmell translated a book on practical Chin-na that showed ground grappling.
It was pre WW2 I think.
It had the guard, RNC, arm bars and much more.
All borrowed from Judo of course ;)

[MightyB]

Joi Bot Sien, Eight Drunken Immortals, the actual sets from styles such as CLF, LAMA, Seven Star Mantis, etc, not the wu-shu,shaolin,etc varieties, contained suplexes, sweeps, throws, sacrifice throws, armbars, triangle, that superman back arch thingy, and other techniques you see in ne-waza. It's not a comprehensive text, but contains a good set of core basics.
Once you look beyond the drunken movements and theatrics, you have some solid techniques. It's in there, but for the most part-all you see today are the theatrics. The older, traditional versions are rarely seen. I guess they're not really "crowd-pleasers."

I thought the same thing after I started learning Judo - I had previously learned Joi Bot Sien. I asked and even demonstrated a couple of the coincidences at the KF school, but that's all they were... coincidences. The sacrifice throw is a sacrifice throw though-

One thing that you gotta realize is even NeWaza is more NeWaza today than it was when Kano created Judo.

[MightyB]

Opps;
Guess you've never met my teacher there in "Michigan"....:rolleyes:
The discussions I'm referring to were over 20 years ago so eerrrr we weren't adapting to anything called BJJ bud. As I recall one of my classmates had recounted a mat session with a Greco Roman player which started said discussion.

Traditional Bak Siu Lum is built on "4 hits", "8 Skills" and "12 Methods".
4 Hits= punch, kick, seize, throw. In the throws are contained De tan, "Falling with purpose" (ground fighting) and it's a bit like tangling with a gorilla. (great ape)
Next time try to actually read my post before pasting me in your non-relevant responses.:D

This is where I smile slyly and STFU.

coming back to this- what you did is adapt the style to a situation. You were able to do that which is good, but the precursor was a response to a Greco Roman Wrestler... it wasn't a core set of drills and techniques that have been passed down and practiced as a system of Chinese ground wrestling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought the same thing after I started learning Judo - I had previously learned Joi Bot Sien. I asked and even demonstrated a couple of the coincidences at the KF school, but that's all they were... coincidences. The sacrifice throw is a sacrifice throw though-

One thing that you gotta realize is even NeWaza is more NeWaza today than it was when Kano created Judo.

Some have argued that it is a return to the judo before Kano changed it.
Irrelevant in reality, Ground work is many different things to different people in different circumstances.

[MasterKiller]

Fine- find me a pre-1985 documented reference to groundfighting as we know encompassed in CMA... and not Ditang 'cuz that t'aint groundfighting.

national methods of self-defense, 1936

That being said, this was probably borrowed from jiu-jitsu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

national methods of self-defense, 1936

That being said, this was probably borrowed from jiu-jitsu.

Ahem:
http://www.amazon.com/Chin-Traditional-Submission-Grappling-Techniques/dp/1583941851/ref=pd_bbs_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235588755&sr=8-10

[MasterKiller]

Ahem:
http://www.amazon.com/Chin-Traditional-Submission-Grappling-Techniques/dp/1583941851/ref=pd_bbs_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235588755&sr=8-10

Yeah, so what? The techniques in that book probably come from jiu-jitsu as well. There is no evidence of these techniques in CMA pre-dating teh Sino-Japanese conflicts.

[lkfmdc]

national methods of self-defense, 1936

That being said, this was probably borrowed from jiu-jitsu.

AND


Tim Cartmell translated a book on practical Chin-na that showed ground grappling.
It was pre WW2 I think.
It had the guard, RNC, arm bars and much more.
All borrowed from Judo of course ;)

As we can still see from attitudes on this very board, some in TCMA are afraid to admit outside influences, but there is little doubt, even less debate ;) that Judo (or "Kano Jiu Jitsu" if you know that argument LOL) had a profound impact upon CMA in the 20th Century (Just as western boxing did!)

But what is significant, is that while a few tried to learn ground fighting, by far the majority only embraced the outside techniques through the same old methodology of form, compliant practice, or just plain teaching the technique in isolation with no live practice.

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!

[Taryn P.]

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!


The mind positively reels with vulger smart@ss comebacks.

[MasterKiller]

The mind positively reels with vulger smart@ss comebacks.

Bikini pics first.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, so what? The techniques in that book probably come from jiu-jitsu as well. There is no evidence of these techniques in CMA pre-dating teh Sino-Japanese conflicts.

I mentioned that before, as Ross points out.

[MasterKiller]

I mentioned that before, as Ross points out.

You want a cookie or somethin'?

[sanjuro_ronin]

AND



As we can still see from attitudes on this very board, some in TCMA are afraid to admit outside influences, but there is little doubt, even less debate ;) that Judo (or "Kano Jiu Jitsu" if you know that argument LOL) had a profound impact upon CMA in the 20th Century (Just as western boxing did!)

But what is significant, is that while a few tried to learn ground fighting, by far the majority only embraced the outside techniques through the same old methodology of form, compliant practice, or just plain teaching the technique in isolation with no live practice.

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!


No MA system or culture is immune from borrowing, especially during the times when winning a fight meant life and losing meant death.
Of course they would have borrowed it, why wouldn't they?
Why wouldn't we NOW?

As for
If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!

That is a basic guard defense in classical Judo dealing with an armed attacker, within that context, it makes sense.
Take what is typically taught in guard work in modern sport BJJ and apply a knife in the attackers hand or withing reaching distance and many things done in sport would not be practical in that situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You want a cookie or somethin'?

Yes, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR ?!?!?!?!

taco would be even better:D

[lkfmdc]

That is a basic guard defense in classical Judo dealing with an armed attacker, within that context, it makes sense.
Take what is typically taught in guard work in modern sport BJJ and apply a knife in the attackers hand or withing reaching distance and many things done in sport would not be practical in that situation.

you missed what I was saying

showing the technique once on a non resisting person is NOT learning how to use the technique!

[sanjuro_ronin]

you missed what I was saying

showing the technique once on a non resisting person is NOT learning how to use the technique!

Oh, I see, I misunderstood.
I don't think that book was an instructional manual though, none of those books from that ear were.

[lkfmdc]

Yes, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR ?!?!?!?!

taco would be even better:D

FISH taco?

[sanjuro_ronin]

FISH taco?

Dude, eww.

Now you force me to post erotic imaging !!
Curse you Lama-boy !!

[Lokhopkuen]

Fine- find me a pre-1985 documented reference to groundfighting as we know encompassed in CMA... and not Ditang 'cuz that t'aint groundfighting.

Hmm?
Our system predates '85 but You being the Xpert on what I've learned I'll just step aside and let you take the lead:p

[bawang]

why chinese wrestling dont go to the ground, wearing 40 pound armor and being taken down can knock you out easy, dont need to go to ground

also ufc rules favor ground fighting, if you have seen art of war mma chamionship on cctv in china, they allow kicking a guy on the ground. many times a guy goes into ground guard and the other guy just kicks him nonstop and get so many points from that

[Lokhopkuen]

Yes, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR ?!?!?!?!

taco would be even better:D

SC r ew this noise, I'll take that taco too please.

[MightyB]

Hmm?
Our system predates '85 but You being the Xpert on what I've learned I'll just step aside and let you take the lead:p

not meaning to offend you Lokhopkuen, it's just my side of the argument stating that the ground stuff (meaning wrestling on the ground) is relatively new and probably comes from exposure to outside of Chinese influences.

[Lokhopkuen]

<SNIP>

If you simply lie on your back, put a guy between your legs and grab his wrist, you have NOT learned how to use the guard!

No but one could develop a fleeting yet VERY passionate relationship:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

I will have to admit that the Cartmell stuff is intriguing and I may have to buy that book just to get an idea of where it comes from.

[Lokhopkuen]

not meaning to offend you Lokhopkuen, it's just my side of the argument stating that the ground stuff (meaning wrestling on the ground) is relatively new and probably comes from exposure to outside of Chinese influences.

I'm not upset bro,
just feisty!

I'm only 4' 11" and I got this complex:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

not meaning to offend you Lokhopkuen, it's just my side of the argument stating that the ground stuff (meaning wrestling on the ground) is relatively new and probably comes from exposure to outside of Chinese influences.

One can use circular argument to that.
IF ground work came from Japan, for example, where did they get it?
It's a well know fact that Japan and Okinawa borrowed many things MA related from China.
One could debate that, perhaps, ground work came from china, "evolved" in Japan and cam back to China.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will have to admit that the Cartmell stuff is intriguing and I may have to buy that book just to get an idea of where it comes from.
All of Tim's stuff is quite good.

[MightyB]

One can use circular argument to that.
IF ground work came from Japan, for example, where did they get it?
It's a well know fact that Japan and Okinawa borrowed many things MA related from China.
One could debate that, perhaps, ground work came from china, "evolved" in Japan and cam back to China.

Everyone knows that it all came from Greece... which got it from Egypt... which got it from Africa... ;)

[bawang]

what if two guys get to the ground, and the referee beats the guy on top with a stick? that would be awesome rule

[MightyB]

what if two guys get to the ground, and the referee beats the guy on top with a stick? that would be awesome rule

now that's something I want to see on pay per view!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone knows that it all came from Greece... which got it from Egypt... which got it from Africa... ;)

Probably more truth to that than any of us care to admit, LOL !
Ehthiopian Sumo for the WIN !

[lkfmdc]

One can use circular argument to that.
IF ground work came from Japan, for example, where did they get it?
It's a well know fact that Japan and Okinawa borrowed many things MA related from China.
One could debate that, perhaps, ground work came from china, "evolved" in Japan and cam back to China.

Except that there are very few examples of this type of ground grappling in CMA and all of them we have came after being exposed to Judo

Futhermore, the Japanese, being as anal as they are :p have very well documented the evolution of Judo/Jiu Jitsu

The extensive ground grappling we see, which influenced and led to BJJ/Sambo, etc came in a period after Jiu Jitsu was abandoned as a battlefield art and became for personal dueling

EVEN THEN, it was under developed. Kano's original curriculum did NOT have extensive ne-waza (floor work). The development by a particular ground of this sort of ne-waza and them defeating Kano's men prompted its inclusion into Kodokan Judo as we know it...

Then, of course, it was further developed in Brazil because Helio Gracie was a man of small physical stature

[Lokhopkuen]

now that's something I want to see on pay per view!

If they're 4' 11" and under I'm the next contestant!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Except that there are very few examples of this type of ground grappling in CMA and all of them we have came after being exposed to Judo

Futhermore, the Japanese, being as anal as they are :p have very well documented the evolution of Judo/Jiu Jitsu

The extensive ground grappling we see, which influenced and led to BJJ/Sambo, etc came in a period after Jiu Jitsu was abandoned as a battlefield art and became for personal dueling

EVEN THEN, it was under developed. Kano's original curriculum did NOT have extensive ne-waza (floor work). The development by a particular ground of this sort of ne-waza and them defeating Kano's men prompted its inclusion into Kodokan Judo as we know it...

Then, of course, it was further developed in Brazil because Helio Gracie was a man of small physical stature

All quite correct but don't forget that, as notorious as the Japanese are for keeping MA records, the Chinese are notorious for NOT keeping them.

[lkfmdc]

Have you read Kennedy's book on Chinese training manuals yet? It's fascinating to see how persistant (and long term!) the prevalance of BS and fantasy land values is in TCMA.... it seems like anyone interested in practical CMA has to claw their way against the mainstream, and this is dating back in many cases more than 100 yeas ago :eek:

[bawang]

does anyone know if this magic tiger kung fu is real or just learned from ju jitsu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=entKRzPqsWw

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you read Kennedy's book on Chinese training manuals yet? It's fascinating to see how persistant (and long term!) the prevalance of BS and fantasy land values is in TCMA.... it seems like anyone interested in practical CMA has to claw their way against the mainstream, and this is dating back in many cases more than 100 yeas ago :eek:

I took your recommendation and read it,yes.
And excellent book.

[MightyB]

does anyone know if this magic tiger kung fu is real or just learned from ju jitsu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=entKRzPqsWw

Oh no you didn't-

[Lokhopkuen]

This cage fighting thing is sweet and all but I think they need to throw in a really hungry wild animal just to liven things up after they been laying there hugging too long.

Random animals with long fangs, huge incisors, and carbon fiber enhanced claws.
Now that's pay per view!!

My idea! I said it first!!:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

This cage fighting thing is sweet and all but I think they need to throw in a really hungry wild animal just to liven things up after they been laying there hugging too long.

Random animals with long fangs, huge incisors, and carbon fiber enhanced claws.
Now that's pay per view!!

My idea! I said it first!!:p

Don't forget Midgets, oops, sorry, vertically challenged people, and scantily clad women with big breasts !

[Taryn P.]

Don't forget Midgets, oops, sorry, vertically challenged people, and scantily clad women with big breasts !

Or those of us who are all of the above.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or those of us who are all of the above.

Tease....:p

[MightyB]

Don't forget Midgets, oops, sorry, vertically challenged people, and scantily clad women with big breasts !

You two are budding network executives! I salute you sirs!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You two are budding network executives! I salute you sirs!

We both went to the Vince McMahon school of Entertainment !

[bawang]

is that magic tiger kung fu real?
sorry i seriously dont know
anyone know?

[Lucas]

why chinese wrestling dont go to the ground, wearing 40 pound armor and being taken down can knock you out easy, dont need to go to ground

also ufc rules favor ground fighting, if you have seen art of war mma chamionship on cctv in china, they allow kicking a guy on the ground. many times a guy goes into ground guard and the other guy just kicks him nonstop and get so many points from that

i totally agree with this. i personally think you should be able to make certain kicks to downed opponents. getting kicked when your laying down isnt too much more painful then getting kicked when you are standing up. plus its more realistic.

if you cant take your opponent to the ground with you, you shouldnt be able to just lay there and kick him as he approaches, he should be able to kick you too for being lazy and laying down.

[MightyB]

We both went to the Vince McMahon school of Entertainment !

submit your resume here: http://www.filcro.com/page9.htm

[MightyB]

does anyone know if this magic tiger kung fu is real or just learned from ju jitsu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=entKRzPqsWw

Do I think this guy's a bad@ss? probably-
Is this a legitimate form of groundfighting?- NO
Was it invented recently as an exercise of the imagination against that proverbial bad guy "Mr. What If"?- Most definitely.

[bawang]

u are sure? i think he do awesome ankle lock on ground
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__JYhJJXZr8

[MightyB]

u are sure? i think he do awesome ankle lock on ground
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__JYhJJXZr8

We had this debate awhile ago-

[sanjuro_ronin]

u are sure? i think he do awesome ankle lock on ground
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__JYhJJXZr8

You should see the ankle locks I can do on someone that lets me.
I can even do a sliding, spinning, reverse ankle lock with a full twist in the pike position.
Though the Russian judge never gives me high marks for that one, the lousy commie ******* !

[Lokhopkuen]

u are sure? i think he do awesome ankle lock on ground
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__JYhJJXZr8

I like the nice silk uniforms! That's why i took up CMA, I love silk:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like the nice silk uniforms! That's why i took up CMA, I love silk:D

Well then:

[David Jamieson]

I like the way silk moves with me. Especially when it lightly brushes against my gentalia...


:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like the way silk moves with me. Especially when it lightly brushes against my gentalia...


:p

The horror...the horror....

[MightyB]

Well then:

Your internet habits during the work day are somewhat... different. Kung Fu Forum and near porn.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your internet habits during the work day are somewhat... different. Kung Fu Forum and near porn.

Yin and Yang baby !

[old8step]

I do have to say this I don't know where the base for groundfighting in 8 step came from or where Shyun got it but he had it back before BJJ became popular in the U.S I was with him when UFC 1 came out and asked him about it and he showed me some stuff. Not as advanced as my traditinal training but he did have it ground in there.

[MightyB]

I do have to say this I don't know where the base for groundfighting in 8 step came from or where Shyun got it but he had it back before BJJ became popular in the U.S I was with him when UFC 1 came out and asked him about it and he showed me some stuff. Not as advanced as my traditinal training but he did have it ground in there.

In light of some of the info that guys here brought up, it probably came from whatever the source for Cartmell's book came from.

[old8step]

In light of some of the info that guys here brought up, it probably came from whatever the source for Cartmell's book came from.

I'm sorry who is Cartmell?

[David Jamieson]

Or those of us who are all of the above.

pics or it didn't happen.

If you're not a big breasted midget, then I will personally be disappointed. :mad:



:p

[Michael Dasargo]

I do have to say this I don't know where the base for groundfighting in 8 step came from or where Shyun got it but he had it back before BJJ became popular in the U.S I was with him when UFC 1 came out and asked him about it and he showed me some stuff. Not as advanced as my traditinal training but he did have it ground in there.

Hello Old8,

It's interesting that you mention that. My teacher, Tony Puyot, taught me Shyun's grappling material back in 93-94. This past month, we've been reviewing the material and found it interesting that he taught the techniques as "fighting combinations" = Strike + throw + submit...but the postural orientation of the submission was still either on our feet or on a knee, rather than positional control as in BJJ.

It's nowhere near the evolved state of groundfighting today. Regardless of where he got it from, I feel it was a decent primer for the transition to learning BJJ.

M.Dasargo

[Taryn P.]

pics or it didn't happen.

If you're not a big breasted midget, then I will personally be disappointed. :mad:



:p


Later. It's way too cold here at present to put on the bikini. In the meantime you'll just have to use your fertile imagination.

[old8step]

Hello Old8,

It's interesting that you mention that. My teacher, Tony Puyot, taught me Shyun's grappling material back in 93-94. This past month, we've been reviewing the material and found it interesting that he taught the techniques as "fighting combinations" = Strike + throw + submit...but the postural orientation of the submission was still either on our feet or on a knee, rather than positional control as in BJJ.

It's nowhere near the evolved state of groundfighting today. Regardless of where he got it from, I feel it was a decent primer for the transition to learning BJJ.

M.Dasargo


Very Very interesting

[Chazmek]

pics or it didn't happen.

If you're not a big breasted midget, then I will personally be disappointed. :mad:

:p

I can personally vouch for Taryn's height and uh..."endowments".
;)

[Taryn P.]

I can personally vouch for Taryn's height and uh..."endowments".
;)

Next time I wear the bikini to class, I will make sure to confiscate your cell phone.

[Lokhopkuen]

Well then:

I have one of those:D

[Lokhopkuen]

I'm sorry who is Cartmell?

Think he's talking about Tim. Nice guy, good martial artist.
Translated a bunch of cool Chinese Docs to English.

[Askari Hodari]

This is a good question. I think that its becoming increasingly apparent that ground fighting is an essential part of self-defense, alongside stand-up fighting and weapons training.

I've attended and organized seminars where practitioners of the Chinese (and non-Chinese) martial arts have learned and taught ground techniques. The most recent occasion where we did this was last year, when a practitioner of Chi Tao Chuan, who also has a wrestling background, taught a session on ground fighting. There was another session where a practitioner of VSK Ju Jitsu taught some ground fighting. I've done some MMA training also, as such I incorporate some basic ground defense in my training.

Overall, the CM artists at these sessions were amenable to the idea. Most of us (my martial arts community) believe that our technique has to evolve in order to be maximally effective. Dogma will never dictate the exigencies of combat.