Teacher vs Spewer

[David Jamieson]

When teaching, how many of you wait for the student to make the discovery and how many just hand it over?

Let me tell you something. the better lesson learned will be the one that the student works for, struggles with and has difficulty with.

If you put the student on your shoulders and carry him down the path, he will learn nothing.

Some things have more value when you withold them from others.

Just saying.... :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Getting punched in the nose will teach you how to block better than 1000 blocking drills.
:D

[uki]

When teaching, how many of you wait for the student to make the discovery and how many just hand it over?so you're asking how many teachers are selfish? if teachers handed everything over right away, they wouldn't be able to make as much money dishing out the small crumbs.


Let me tell you something. the better lesson learned will be the one that the student works for, struggles with and has difficulty with.yes, because it will keep your ego satisfied knowing that you are still superiour and selfish in your knowledge.


If you put the student on your shoulders and carry him down the path, he will learn nothing.true, but he wouldn't be a student then, just a monkey on your back.


Some things have more value when you withold them from others.yeah... your status quo in the martial arts world.


Just saying....me too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so you're asking how many teachers are selfish? if teachers handed everything over right away, they wouldn't be able to make as much money dishing out the small crumbs.
yes, because it will keep your ego satisfied knowing that you are still superiour and selfish in your knowledge.
true, but he wouldn't be a student then, just a monkey on your back.
yeah... your status quo in the martial arts world.
me too.

You tend to be very narrow minded at times, don't you?

[David Jamieson]

so you're asking how many teachers are selfish? if teachers handed everything over right away, they wouldn't be able to make as much money dishing out the small crumbs.
yes, because it will keep your ego satisfied knowing that you are still superiour and selfish in your knowledge.
true, but he wouldn't be a student then, just a monkey on your back.
yeah... your status quo in the martial arts world.
me too.

lol. bitter much?

[brothernumber9]

okay then Uki,

I suppose then, that every elementary teacher in the world is only worried about keeping their superiority over their students and mainting their status quo in the educational world because they don't just give the answers to each question on tests before they give the questions.

You are just being a curmudgeon because somewhere down the line David irked you. Be reasonable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We crawl before we walk, walk before we run, run before we jump and jump before we sashay !
Nature rules.

[David Jamieson]

Uki's anger and contrariness stance are irrelevant, but he's entitled to drop his loads wherever he likes so long as the forum mgmt allows him to and so far, they are ok with him and so be it.

Getting back to the question, anyone experience students who actually get worse the more generous you are with them and does anyone have students who really excel with the material because they are allowed to discover a lot of aspects on their own in regards to it?

I'm not talking about leaving a student floating, I'm talking about putting them between a rock and a hard place and seeing if they use the tools they've been given to prevail.

Who teaches like this and why? Do you agree or disagree that the best lessons are the ones that are hardest won?

Or are you of the opinion that students should just have immediate access to information even without the guarantee that they understand through active demonstration based on personal discovery of the knowledge you gave them a key to?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best students are the ones that reach their goal and can say " I did this on my own".
They also have the best teachers.

I've been blessed and cursed to have a few teachers and coaches in my time, all with different teaching strategies and y far the best have always been the type that teaches but makes you feel you got there on your own.
The push you physically, to far beyond your concieved boundries, but never "hold you down" with THEIR version of the system.
The give you everything you need to find the answer yourself.

[yutyeesam]

Uki's anger and contrariness stance are irrelevant, but he's entitled to drop his loads wherever he likes so long as the forum mgmt allows him to and so far, they are ok with him and so be it.

Getting back to the question, anyone experience students who actually get worse the more generous you are with them and does anyone have students who really excel with the material because they are allowed to discover a lot of aspects on their own in regards to it?

I'm not talking about leaving a student floating, I'm talking about putting them between a rock and a hard place and seeing if they use the tools they've been given to prevail.

Who teaches like this and why? Do you agree or disagree that the best lessons are the ones that are hardest won?

Or are you of the opinion that students should just have immediate access to information even without the guarantee that they understand through active demonstration based on personal discovery of the knowledge you gave them a key to?

DJ - I agree 100% completely with this. There was a situation where the teacher told a student repeatedly to bend his toes forward and aim with the shin for the roundhouse kick, and the student just would not take the time to correct this - until he broke his toes.

The methodology that I've experienced and pass on to my students is to give a certain core foundation with some techniques, and then "play" with them. After some playing, here are some new techniques/concepts. Go play.

I like this terminology of "play" - it's used in BJJ AND it's used in Kung-Fu. Here's some stuff, now go play with your friends with them lol.

[GLW]

a lot depends on the WHAT of the discovery. Things like how to move and align correctly in a Taijiquan form I will usually give fore "Free" - mainly because many of those things, if done incorrectly, lead to bad balance that I must correct later...or even worse, knee or low back injury and pain.

But other things, I will explain if asked, show in progressive approximations (simplified to adding more complex concepts later)...and have found that even then, not everyone gets it. So, it really does work out most times that until the student is ready for the idea, they will not come close to grasping it anyway....so I don't worry about it much.

[yutyeesam]

so you're asking how many teachers are selfish? if teachers handed everything over right away, they wouldn't be able to make as much money dishing out the small crumbs.
yes, because it will keep your ego satisfied knowing that you are still superiour and selfish in your knowledge.
true, but he wouldn't be a student then, just a monkey on your back.
yeah... your status quo in the martial arts world.
me too.

Uki-
Actually, since most people take up their MA training as a recreational practice, a lot of them would rather be told what to do, so that they don't have to do much thinking.

So many teachers feed into this, and give tons of techniques and forms, to keep the student "feeling" like he is learning more. The giving of more and more material is actually the money-maker for the business.

Put another way - many students drop out when you have them spar.

[MasterKiller]

1. Explain the technique

2. Demonstrate the technique

3. Walk them through doing the technique

4. Make them drill the technique with a partner

5. Allow them to adjust the technique during free play

[David Jamieson]

1. Explain the technique

2. Demonstrate the technique

3. Walk them through doing the technique

4. Make them drill the technique with a partner

5. Allow them to adjust the technique during free play

point 5 is the important part because it is demonstrative of understanding.

points 1 through 4 are a seemingly sound method of transmitting the material you want to transmit.

how do you help them with point 5?

[yutyeesam]

point 5 is the important part because it is demonstrative of understanding.

points 1 through 4 are a seemingly sound method of transmitting the material you want to transmit.

how do you help them with point 5?

play lightly first, and then progressively increase intensity/resistance?

[MasterKiller]

how do you help them with point 5? I coach them during free play.

"Your arm is there, his is here, try this instead."

"You caught the kick, now throw a right cross."

Free play continues.

Gradually, you ween them from your teet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know. other fighting systems don't have these issues and concerns.
You don't see them in boxing or judo or wrestling or MT.
You don't see them in pudding wrestling and jell-o fighting, much less in full contact Somali face sitting.

[EarthDragon]

The back of our shirt logo says secrets and techniques.......... my shifu has never told me 1 of them to this day.....its been 20 yrs.
I had to figure them out on my own......... Do you think for a second I would just give them to my students? Hell no, they must figure them out on thier own.. this is true learning.

Everyone in MA must watch spring, summer, winter, spring its about a buddhist monk and a young monk on a flotaing 2 person monastary in China, mind you the entire movie has no dielect. the lessons taught no words could describe so the movie doesnt need any talking... this is true gung fu

[MasterKiller]

The back of our shirt logo says secrets and techniques.......... my shifu has never told me 1 of them to this day.....its been 20 yrs.
I had to figure them out on my own......... Do you think for a second I would just give them to my students? Hell no, they must figure them out on thier own.. this is true learning.

Everyone in MA must watch spring, summer, winter, spring its about a buddhist monk and a young monk on a flotaing 2 person monastary in China, mind you the entire movie has no dielect. the lessons taught no words could describe so the movie doesnt need any talking... this is true gung fu

That type of training leads to stagnation.

You spend 20 years figuring out A+B=C.

Your students spend 20 years figuring out A+B=C while you watch.

After 40 years, you both now know A+B=C and can giggle at people who think B+C=D.

A good teacher should be able to pass on his experience in less than half the time it took him to learn it. Otherwise, why do the students even need you?

[yutyeesam]

You know. other fighting systems don't have these issues and concerns.
You don't see them in boxing or judo or wrestling or MT.
You don't see them in pudding wrestling and jell-o fighting, much less in full contact Somali face sitting.

That's b/c they have pretty much standardized curriculums. He|| even certain federations of TKD don't have much of an issue w/it since their currics are standardized.

It's hard to find much standardization in CMA, IMO, except San Shou.

[EarthDragon]

MK perhaps I did not explian myself correclty my apologies

the "secrets" are things within our system or any system for that matter you must learn for yourself. None can teach them to you.......

They are in no way techniques, application, fighting priciples or anything of that sort, they are more like um..........philosophies.......... I dont even know if the secrets I have figured out in my path in gung fu are the same as my shifu's. thats the beauty of it ther is no actual secrets. just apiffanies........ sp?

these "realizations" if you will cannot be taught only learned

[MasterKiller]

MK perhaps I did not explian myself correclty my apologies

the "secrets" are things within our system or any system for that matter you must learn for yourself. None can teach them to you.......

They are in no way techniques, application, fighting priciples or anything of that sort, they are more like um..........philosophies.......... I dont even know if the secrets I have figured out in my path in gung fu are the same as my shifu's. thats the beauty of it ther is no actual secrets. just apiffanies........ sp?

these "realizations" if you will cannot be taught only learned

Ah, OK. I agree.

[Lucas]

1. Explain the technique

2. Demonstrate the technique

3. Walk them through doing the technique

4. Make them drill the technique with a partner

5. Allow them to adjust the technique during free play

ding ding ding. this is the format for almost any type of training/teaching. over the years ive been involved in a couple top level employee and business management courses, this is the same exact method always prescribed on how to train people to do pretty much anything.

[Kansuke]

Let me tell you something.




This part says it all about what is deeply wrong with you.

[Lucas]

This part says it all about what is deeply wrong with you.

im picturing fire marshal bill.

just because the quote is

let me tell ya something !

[David Jamieson]

So, the method is not the query here, it is in regards to epiphany in the subject that uses the method.

And how a teacher can retard that progress by being a "spewer" and just handing out information as opposed to withholding information to the benefit of the student who, if actually interested and if actually diligent will indeed find the answer and when doing so, will UNDERSTAND it, with depth.

Failure to understand is inclusive to the easy handout.

which goes to the old adage - give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime -

when you teach a man to fish, you walk him through a method. when he eats from his work, he demonstrates depth of understanding of the method.

In kungfu, when you walk someone through a method, they will not fully understand it until they employ it. Direct experience is the true teacher.

If you never apply your method, you never actually learn the lesson that is meant to be transmitted with the method. In essence, you may as well have never had a teacher because you don't know anything anyway despite your tutalage. :)

[uki]

which goes to the old adage - give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime -unless the man happens to live in the desert... then he'd be more appreciative of just being given a fish for the day.


If you never apply your method, you never actually learn the lesson that is meant to be transmitted with the method.what kind of teacher teaches a method without showing one how to apply it? if he doesn't know how to apply the method, how does he know the method to begin with?


In essence, you may as well have never had a teacher because you don't know anything anyway despite your tutalage.and yet martial arts styles and methods were first birthed in a singular individual without any teacher besides his on mind and observations of nature. who taught the tiger style before the tiger style exisited? :p

[David Jamieson]

unless the man happens to live in the desert... then he'd be more appreciative of just being given a fish for the day.

what kind of teacher teaches a method without showing one how to apply it? if he doesn't know how to apply the method, how does he know the method to begin with?

and yet martial arts styles and methods were first birthed in a singular individual without any teacher besides his on mind and observations of nature. who taught the tiger style before the tiger style exisited? :p

if he lives in the desert, then instead of giving him a lizard, you teach him how to catch lizards and as well, you could show him how to retrieve water from cacti. I think you like to argue for the sake of it seeing as your ratio of noise to signal is very high in almost all your posts.

moving along. The method is inclusive of application in at least one variation. I don't think I advocated not showing application(s) derived from method.

You are wrong about the last statement. It's a chicken egg thing and all martial arts are built upon what came before and no martial arts were pulled from the void fully formed.

I am not sure as to why you think timelines are so short or events are sweeping and quick in the universe.

It takes a person their entire life to die.

Meditate on that Uki. :)

[Exadon]

unless the man happens to live in the desert... then he'd be more appreciative of just being given a fish for the day.
haha you try really hard to prove him wrong, I give you that. But I think you are just trying to fight an anology without making a real point.

And the analogy works in the desert as well...would you teach a man how to find water on his own? or just give him water.






and yet martial arts styles and methods were first birthed in a singular individual without any teacher besides his on mind and observations of nature. who taught the tiger style before the tiger style exisited? :p

yes...and the tiger will always be a tiger...he will never learn the fighting style of another animal.

We are humans...we learn from past experience. One person created a style, another learned said style and added to it and so on.

[Exadon]

It takes a person their entire life to die.


me likes this quote

[uki]

haha you try really hard to prove him wrong, I give you that.it's not about proving him wrong...


But I think you are just trying to fight an anology without making a real point.it's not about fighting analogies...


would you teach a man how to find water on his own? or just give him water.that depends on if i had water to spare and the ability to aquire more, not to mention the person i am to give the water to... if he is my enemy and will only drink to replenish himself to continue his adversity, it makes no sense to give him a drink... then again, why would any man live in the desert if he couldn't find water on his own?


yes...and the tiger will always be a tiger...he will never learn the fighting style of another animal.but the tiger is the best teacher of a tiger style.


We are humans...we learn from past experience. hahaha!!! really? then why is everyone still fighting?


One person created a style, another learned said style and added to it and so on.yet the style was still created before anything was added onto it.


I think you like to argue for the sake of it seeing as your ratio of noise to signal is very high in almost all your posts.i just like to pick on you. :)


You are wrong about the last statement.i expected nothing less from you.


It's a chicken egg thing and all martial arts are built upon what came before and no martial arts were pulled from the void fully formed.yet enlightenment comes fully from the void of ignorance... no?


I am not sure as to why you think timelines are so short or events are sweeping and quick in the universe. must be the nature of my vision.


It takes a person their entire life to die. funny, i think it takes a person their entire life to live.


Meditate on that Uki.once the river is crossed, the raft becomes useless. :)

[bawang]

there are no secrets in kung fu

[David Jamieson]

there are no secrets in kung fu

yes, this is true, but when you open the door to a vast complex maze, you don't exactly know you're way around or out of the maze.

It is always best to have someone tell you that:

1) you are in a maze

2) there is a way out

3) you will / will not find it by doing this.

Otherwise, it may as well be secret. :)

Because although many cross the river, it is the teacher who is the raft to take the next one across. (meditate on that uki)

[EarthDragon]

Uki, you said

yet enlightenment comes fully from the void of ignorance... no?

enlightenment comes from understanding the self and finding God within ones self.

not from the lack of understanding.

[Exadon]

it's not about fighting analogies...

orly?
see bellow


that depends on if i had water to spare and the ability to aquire more, not to mention the person i am to give the water to... if he is my enemy and will only drink to replenish himself to continue his adversity, it makes no sense to give him a drink... then again, why would any man live in the desert if he couldn't find water on his own?

a lot of work to not fight an analogy :) you are looking too far into it.

If you are a teacher of MAs...you will teach a student how to punch...so he can defend himself, not punch for him.

it is as simple as that, there are no but what, what if , but what if he has no arms? no. no buts. that is it.




but the tiger is the best teacher of a tiger style.

I doubt that to be true, it could be? but I have never seen a martial arts master who just learned from watching a tiger.



hahaha!!! really? then why is everyone still fighting?

the point I was making was on the improvement of MAs. Nothing to do with world conflict on why we are still fighting.

You learn to be a cook from learning someone who learned from someone else , who learned from someone else

once you master the art you can create your own special recipes and teach them to someone else.

A tiger fights like any other tiger. a tiger will not add a monkey style of fighting and teach it to his/her cubs

annnnd I like pie. This is all I have to say about that.

[uki]

there are no secrets in kung fubut there is plenty of money to be made in keeping them.

yes, this is true, but when you open the door to a vast complex maze, you don't exactly know you're way around or out of the maze.complexities are nothing more than misunderstandings of the simplicities.



Because although many cross the river, it is the teacher who is the raft to take the next one across.what happens to the teacher when someone comes along and shows others how to build the raft themselves?





enlightenment comes from understanding the self and finding God within ones self, not from the lack of understanding.how can one become enlightened if they are not first lacking in understanding?





If you are a teacher of MAs...you will teach a student how to punch...so he can defend himself, not punch for him. true.


it is as simple as that, there are no but what, what if , but what if he has no arms? no. no buts. that is it. but if he has no arms, you can't teach him to punch with a fist.


I doubt that to be true, it could be? but I have never seen a martial arts master who just learned from watching a tiger. true... most have died ages ago.


the point I was making was on the improvement of MAs. Nothing to do with world conflict on why we are still fighting. but truth is relative to all perspectives in life.


You learn to be a cook from learning someone who learned from someone else , who learned from someone elsebut ultimately it was one person who learned how to cook... the point i am making is that anyone, anywhere can learn martial arts with himself and nature as his teacher.


once you master the art you can create your own special recipes and teach them to someone else. true, but art is the individual expression of the soul to the senses.


A tiger fights like any other tiger. a tiger will not add a monkey style of fighting and teach it to his/her cubswouldn't that be a sight though.

[David Jamieson]

Uki-

Are you for or against allowing a student to learn on his or her own terms, equipped with a method that will reveal a truth to them through diligent practice?

1= for

2= against

If you are for this inclusion to a method of training, how would you do it or can you give an example of where you would wait for a student to make a discovery based upon the method they are using that isn't blatantly handed to them and thereby removing the value of the lesson.

If you are against this, what value is there in indiscriminately handing out information to someone who in order to be ready to grasp it, must find the truth themselves?

Also, would you feed an uncut steak to a toothless baby? :)

[EarthDragon]

Uki,

how can one become enlightened if they are not first lacking in understanding?

you cant but yout comment was........ yet enlightenment comes fully from the void of ignorance... no?

again, enlightenmnent comes from understanding, not the lack of it.

your point of view is warped by your understanding. Not the other way around.

Your understanding cannot be warped by your views. You must first have true understanding before you can have a true point of view... otherwise they are like a$$holes everyone got one and they all stink

[Lucas]

as to the topic, IMO both.

There are times when a person needs to figure something out for themself. there is a type of understanding you recieve when you find your own answers.

i think it was confucius who said that when he brings up one corner of the conversation, and a man cannot bring up one of the other 3 corners, he would no longer converse with the man. meaning, of course, that some times people need to be able to think for themselves, and with what is provided to them, secure a conclusion/element to the situation.

yet on the same token, i believe that there are instances when a teacher should explain in depth and in totality the hows, whys, whats, and whens of certain things.

also the student in question is going to be the major deciding factor as to what ratio of either element you are going to use.

personally, i have not done a great deal of teaching. ive done some, enjoyed it a bit. my goal in martial arts has always been the ability to fight. i dont desire to be a teacher. im one of the selfish MA'ists.

in my studies there have been times when i have been left to ponder the outcome, meaning, usage, application of certain things. sometimes when i find the answer, it has been very rewarding. though other times ive thought "why didnt you just tell me instead of hinting, i'll get to it either way"

i understand WHY teachers do this, though i also understand that sometimes teachers do this when it is entirely un neccissary.

IMO if you are going to teach, and truly be a teacher, for the sake of TEACHING. you NEED to do what is best called for in any particular situation.

there will never be one strictly rigid way of transmission.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are no secrets in kung fu

Sshhhh, that's a secret.