Where is the WC?

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnnVc21Ol6Q

No meant as a critique, because this Sifu is out there and fighting full contact so I give him his props and then some.
Fact is, there are not many full contact clips of WC out there, so to find this one was very cool.
But, where is the WC?

And no, I don't mean that is should look like a WC form, but I do mean that, is certainly doesn't look like an WC that one sees demoed in the many youtube clips.

[Vajramusti]

No meant as a critique, because this Sifu is out there and fighting full contact so I give him his props and then some.
Fact is, there are not many full contact clips of WC out there, so to find this one was very cool.
But, where is the WC?

And no, I don't mean that is should look like a WC form, but I do mean that, is certainly doesn't look like an WC that one sees demoed in the many youtube clips.[/QUOTE]
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FWIW:
1. I too credit him for engaging in that sporting competition.Who is he?

2.Whatever line he comes from he has/had to adapt to the task at hand and to the rules..I don't see a problem with that.
3. You can see that he comes from wc-the spacing of his feet, fairly squared up, can fight with either foot up front,
4. Competition- no real damage done- a real fight shouldn't be that long- but competition often is-
and won on points. Good for experience.
5. UTube world-an incomplete representation of the wing chun world.

PS "Sifu" is not reallya title..a sifu isn't everyone's sifu.

joy chaudhuri

[Tom Kagan]

Suppose western boxing only made available clips of speedbag training skipping rope and other aspects of surface martial silliness such as 'shadow sparring' (wha? You PRETEND to hit each other?). The same question might be asked of that style. But since you asked... the WC is down the hall - second door on the left.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No meant as a critique, because this Sifu is out there and fighting full contact so I give him his props and then some.
Fact is, there are not many full contact clips of WC out there, so to find this one was very cool.
But, where is the WC?

And no, I don't mean that is should look like a WC form, but I do mean that, is certainly doesn't look like an WC that one sees demoed in the many youtube clips.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW:
1. I too credit him for engaging in that sporting competition.Who is he?

2.Whatever line he comes from he has/had to adapt to the task at hand and to the rules..I don't see a problem with that.
3. You can see that he comes from wc-the spacing of his feet, fairly squared up, can fight with either foot up front,
4. Competition- no real damage done- a real fight shouldn't be that long- but competition often is-
and won on points. Good for experience.
5. UTube world-an incomplete representation of the wing chun world.

PS "Sifu" is not reallya title..a sifu isn't everyone's sifu.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

I have often said myself that, the rules of any competition will tend to dictate the "look" of the fighters, so I agree with you on that regard.
While he does start off in a WC "Stance", most of the principles and even how he throws his punches, seem to be very UN-WC like.
The strikes are more looping and round and very few coming "up the middle".
Again, I wanna make it clear its not a critique but an obersvation.
Of course if anyone can show a clip of WC in a full contact match that is more "wing chunish", please do so.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Suppose western boxing only made available clips of speedbag training skipping rope and other aspects of surface martial silliness such as 'shadow sparring' (wha? You PRETEND to hit each other?). The same question might be asked of that style. But since you asked... the WC is down the hall - second door on the left.

Not sure what you mean in the beginning of your post Tom, but thanks for the directions, that dim sum went right through me !
:D

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnnVc21Ol6Q

No meant as a critique, because this Sifu is out there and fighting full contact so I give him his props and then some.
Fact is, there are not many full contact clips of WC out there, so to find this one was very cool.
But, where is the WC?

And no, I don't mean that is should look like a WC form, but I do mean that, is certainly doesn't look like an WC that one sees demoed in the many youtube clips.

In my view, if you fight on the outside (noncontact/freemovement range) it will end up looking (and being) boxing/kickboxing and that's because this is how our body moves best at 100% at that range. Regardless of your art, if you fight enough on the outside, it will end up being kickboxing. It has to. So when you get WCK people who fight on the outside, they end up kickboxing, and throwing outmost WCK movement -- which has little to do with kickboxing.

It never occurs to them that the fact they can make all their WCK tools work in contact drills (lop sao, chi sao,etc.) but not at distance fighting might suggest that those tools are contact-only tools, and that WCK may be a contact (attached) fighting method. Put those same guys in contact,like in chi sao, and you'd see them using WCK movement. Let them spar and it all goes away.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with kickboxing. If youa re going to fight from the outside, you willkickbox. My view is that if you want to fight from the outside, you'd be better off just taking up some art that trains kickboxing as it makes little sense to learn and practice all these contact skills and not learn and practice kickboxing skills to kickbox.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my view, if you fight on the outside (noncontact/freemovement range) it will end up looking (and being) boxing/kickboxing and that's because this is how our body moves best at 100% at that range. Regardless of your art, if you fight enough on the outside, it will end up being kickboxing. It has to. So when you get WCK people who fight on the outside, they end up kickboxing, and throwing outmost WCK movement -- which has little to do with kickboxing.

It never occurs to them that the fact they can make all their WCK tools work in contact drills (lop sao, chi sao,etc.) but not at distance fighting might suggest that those tools are contact-only tools, and that WCK may be a contact (attached) fighting method. Put those same guys in contact,like in chi sao, and you'd see them using WCK movement. Let them spar and it all goes away.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with kickboxing. If youa re going to fight from the outside, you willkickbox. My view is that if you want to fight from the outside, you'd be better off just taking up some art that trains kickboxing as it makes little sense to learn and practice all these contact skills and not learn and practice kickboxing skills to kickbox.

Very well said T.
It echos what both my WC ( Moy Yat) sifu's used to say.

[Tom Kagan]

Not sure what you mean in the beginning of your post Tom, but thanks for the directions, that dim sum went right through me !
:D


What I mean is that if all everyone keeps seeing of a given style is limited in scope (ie: demos, demos, demos, maybe a little LookSao and some light ChiSao) and does not include more of the results of the training (ie: ChernKiuSao, Maai Seung Jong), then that is what defines the style. If you then see a result after being preconditioned as to what is exposed previously, you end up with your question.

Suppose all you saw of the Kickboxing of which Terrence speaks was TaeBo. What would be your question when you finally saw a kickboxer in an actual match?

[m1k3]

What I mean is that if all everyone keeps seeing of a given style is limited in scope (ie: demos, demos, demos, maybe a little LookSao and some light ChiSao) and does not include more of the results of the training (ie: ChernKiuSao, Maai Seung Jong), then that is what defines the style. If you then see a result after being preconditioned as to what is exposed previously, you end up with your question.

Suppose all you saw of the Kickboxing of which Terrence speaks was TaeBo. What would be your question when you finally saw a kickboxer in an actual match?

Easy, "why doesn't that look like Taebo?". Am I right, am I?

[t_niehoff]

What I mean is that if all everyone keeps seeing of a given style is limited in scope (ie: demos, demos, demos, maybe a little LookSao and some light ChiSao) and does not include more of the results of the training (ie: ChernKiuSao, Maai Seung Jong), then that is what defines the style. If you then see a result after being preconditioned as to what is exposed previously, you end up with your question.

Suppose all you saw of the Kickboxing of which Terrence speaks was TaeBo. What would be your question when you finally saw a kickboxer in an actual match?

This underscores the problem with TCMA-sytle training in my view: they are not learning and practicing things (the movements, tools, etc.) as they will be actually using them in fighting -- though many BELIEVE they are. So when they demo things or practice their drills/exercises, they do X but when they fight they end up doing Y. That is by definition poor training/practice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What I mean is that if all everyone keeps seeing of a given style is limited in scope (ie: demos, demos, demos, maybe a little LookSao and some light ChiSao) and does not include more of the results of the training (ie: ChernKiuSao, Maai Seung Jong), then that is what defines the style. If you then see a result after being preconditioned as to what is exposed previously, you end up with your question.

Suppose all you saw of the Kickboxing of which Terrence speaks was TaeBo. What would be your question when you finally saw a kickboxer in an actual match?

I understand what you mean, that is why I started this thread actually.
My question at this point then is, Why are people doing WC like that ( demos, looksao, chisao, etc) if that is NOT what defines the style?

[t_niehoff]

I understand what you mean, that is why I started this thread actually.
My question at this point then is, Why are people doing WC like that ( demos, looksao, chisao, etc) if that is NOT what defines the style?

Quite simply because that is all they know and can do. And there's nothing wrong with that -- if you recognize it and admit it.

All those things you mention are just the curriculum of WCK -- how it is taught/learned via the TCMA model. That curriculum will teach you the tools of WCK but not how to USE the tools of WCK (fight).

[Vajramusti]

!. You can't control what people "see" on U tube or even in a real fight.

2. Wing chun is not kick boxing even in application- though it may look like that to some folks.
((No further comment on "sifu's" sporting match.)

3. With wing chun training one can hit from the side or the center- whichever is the simplest
clear line into the opponent.

4.If you see major insurmountable problems in wing chun- There is a nice MMA forum that might relieve the frustrations of some quasi wing chun folks.
Might also help with the repetitive frequent posting clutter here.The MMA forum seems to be underused.

5. Its a fantasy world to expect people to film real encounters and put them on u tube.
There can be both civil and criminal implications for showoffs.

5. The car is the most dangerous thing in America- so carfu is the most helpful thing for realists
and for self defense..guns and knives are next in the US but still way behind cars.
Being attacked bya kick boxer, bjj guy, grappler or a martial artist is way way down on the list of dangers in life.
Medical disasters are problems too. Often folks have an out of whack sense for what real dangers are.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

!. You can't control what people "see" on U tube or even in a real fight.


It doesn't take some "learned eye" to see whether or not a person is using the movements, actions, skills they practice doing or not. If they practice X and then do Y when they fight, its obvious. It's even more obvious when you see people who practice X then do X.



2. Wing chun is not kick boxing even in application- though it may look like that to some folks.
((No further comment on "sifu's" sporting match.)

3. With wing chun training one can hit from the side or the center- whichever is the simplest
clear line into the opponent.


This sort of suggests that "with wing chun training" a person will be able to do X. And that's simply not true. It fails to take into account many things.



4.If you see major insurmountable problems in wing chun- There is a nice MMA forum that might relieve the frustrations of some quasi wing chun folks.
Might also help with the repetitive frequent posting clutter here.The MMA forum seems to be underused.


No one said the problems were insurmountable, just that they needed to be addressed.

It's funny I keep hearing the same complaints. First, the old if-you-are-not-happy-with-WCK-go-elsewhere bit. To be frank, that attitude is what feeds the traditional mindset. And it ignores reality. Evolution and growth comes from dissatisfaction, from finding problems and trying to make things better. Not from putting head into hole. Second, the repetitive posting issue. Sure, I repeat much the same message BECAUSE you traditional fantasy guys keep repeating the same traditional fantasy stuff, and the answer to all that BS is the same thing. The answer to most questions boil down to the same thing. The sad part is most of you guys don't recognize that or even know what the one thing is. Even though I've told you.



5. Its a fantasy world to expect people to film real encounters and put them on u tube.
There can be both civil and criminal implications for showoffs.


"Real experiences"? Anytime you spar at 100% with competent people, it is a "real experience". You, like the other fantasy guys, hold onto your "real fighting" versus sport or gym or whatever missing the whole point that realistic skills come from realistic training (sparring) -- and that realistic skills will work in any realistic situation. What amkes you guys who can't fight your way out of a paper bag in the gym believe you will suddenly be solid fighters in "real experiences"?

Also, there are plenty of "real experiences" on youtube.



5. The car is the most dangerous thing in America- so carfu is the most helpful thing for realists
and for self defense..guns and knives are next in the US but still way behind cars.
Being attacked bya kick boxer, bjj guy, grappler or a martial artist is way way down on the list of dangers in life.
Medical disasters are problems too. Often folks have an out of whack sense for what real dangers are.

joy chaudhuri

I think YOU are missing the point. The issue is about training for fighting. If you don't want to fight, if you don't want to develop fighting skills (and that is certainly fine), then this whole discussion really doesn't matter. Do WCK as folk dance -- it won't make any difference.

But if your concern is developing solid, fundamentally sound fighting skills in WCK or any other martial art, then training with people who are competent fighters, working with competent fight traininers, using their methods, etc. is worth consideration.

[sanjuro_ronin]

!. You can't control what people "see" on U tube or even in a real fight.

True.



2. Wing chun is not kick boxing even in application- though it may look like that to some folks.
((No further comment on "sifu's" sporting match.)

Agreed, but his is not the only full contact WC clip that "looks" like kick boxing.


3. With wing chun training one can hit from the side or the center- whichever is the simplest
clear line into the opponent.

Yes, agreed, of course.


4.If you see major insurmountable problems in wing chun- There is a nice MMA forum that might relieve the frustrations of some quasi wing chun folks.
Might also help with the repetitive frequent posting clutter here.The MMA forum seems to be underused.


I agree, its silly to discuss WC in a WC forum.
:D


5. Its a fantasy world to expect people to film real encounters and put them on u tube.
There can be both civil and criminal implications for showoffs.

Well, that's not correct, we see plenty of those on youtube, between CONSENTING adults, I don't think anyone is suggesting going out an beating up people on the spur of the moment, especially since we don't have to.


5. The car is the most dangerous thing in America- so carfu is the most helpful thing for realists
and for self defense..guns and knives are next in the US but still way behind cars.
Being attacked bya kick boxer, bjj guy, grappler or a martial artist is way way down on the list of dangers in life.
Medical disasters are problems too. Often folks have an out of whack sense for what real dangers are.

Not sure of your point...

[clam61]

i see wing chun. i see wing chun moves and wing chun principles in action (hes trying to control the center).

whats happening to him happens to a lot of us. during pressure situations he loses l form and so it doesnt look like pure wing chun in demos.

to correct this one must do more repetitions of the techniques so that the form is burned into your subconscious and muscle memory. so your natural reaction will be correct

I GIVE THIS GUY PROPS THOUGH BECAUSE HES NOT DOING FRONT KICK + CHAIN PUNCH x INFINITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vajramusti]

I agree, its silly to discuss WC in a WC forum.((sanjuro ronin)
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I was not referring to your thread starting post but someone else's post.The thread starter is ok-
but many threads go astray after an initial well meaning start.

It's not easy to generalize about all of wing chun .I know from your posts that you would like to see more wing chun on you tube. But not everyone is interested in being on utube. But folks I am referring to have done "comparisons" not only with other wing chun stylists but with other CMAs, JMAs, KMAs in order to test their wing chun and adjust to what they encounter.
Some of the folks have entered all style events without filming themselves.

But, not everyone is interested in the equivalent of shouting and key board warring either.
Their loss? i don't think so..

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree, its silly to discuss WC in a WC forum.((sanjuro ronin)
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I was not referring to your thread starting post but someone else's post.The thread starter is ok-
but many threads go astray after an initial well meaning start.

It's not easy to generalize about all of wing chun .I know from your posts that you would like to see more wing chun on you tube. But not everyone is interested in being on utube. But folks I am referring to have done "comparisons" not only with other wing chun stylists but with other CMAs, JMAs, KMAs in order to test their wing chun and adjust to what they encounter.
Some of the folks have entered all style events without filming themselves.

But, not everyone is interested in the equivalent of shouting and key board warring either.
Their loss? i don't think so..

joy chaudhuri

I agree with you Sifu Joy, I was just being me ;)
I myself have done more off video than on, much more, so have the vast majority of MA, that is a given.
When I trained Moy Yat we did lots of full contact sparring and being one of the few with a varied MA background,, I was used to "test " WC on.
None of them were ever video taped.
But to be fair, it was a loss because those clips would have been a great learning tool.

[Tom Kagan]

I understand what you mean, that is why I started this thread actually.
My question at this point then is, Why are people doing WC like that ( demos, looksao, chisao, etc) if that is NOT what defines the style?

There isn't anything wrong with "doing WC like that". But if that is all that is done and shown, then, unfortunately, that is what defines the style. Tough luck, too bad. Live with it, or produce more evidence which makes more people ask your question. A more well rounded and balanced view is required to help redefine what to measure against.

[Knifefighter]

Why doesn't it look like WC? Because fighting is nothing like the way 99% of WC people train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There isn't anything wrong with "doing WC like that". But if that is all that is done and shown, then, unfortunately, that is what defines the style. Tough luck, too bad. Live with it, or produce more evidence which makes more people ask your question. A more well rounded and balanced view is required to help redefine what to measure against.

Care to expand on that?

[Tom Kagan]

Not really.